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Down's Symptoms May Be Treatable In the Womb

timothy posted more than 5 years ago | from the hey-kid-drink-this dept.

Medicine 170

missb writes "US researchers have found that prenatal treatment for Down syndrome works in mice. This raises the possibility that a pregnant woman who knows her unborn child has Down syndrome might be able to forestall some of the symptoms before giving birth. When fetal mouse pups that had a syndrome similar to Down's were treated with nerve-protecting chemicals, some of the developmental delays that are part of the condition — such as motor and sensory abilities — were removed."

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There's already a treatment... (-1, Troll)

cthulu_mt (1124113) | more than 5 years ago | (#25911781)

...it's called an abortion. Don't make retards; even partial ones.

Re:There's already a treatment... (-1, Flamebait)

Mish (50810) | more than 5 years ago | (#25911801)

A troll, but I instantly thought of the tag: Treatable_With_A_Coathanger

Re:There's already a treatment... (0, Flamebait)

JosKarith (757063) | more than 5 years ago | (#25914601)

I'm afraid you missed your opportunity on that one by a good 15-20 years mate...

Re:There's already a treatment... (0, Flamebait)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 5 years ago | (#25912057)

I thought Americans liked retards. I mean, y'all voted for one, twice.

Down's syndrome and abortion (-1, Flamebait)

qbzzt (11136) | more than 5 years ago | (#25912379)

...it's called an abortion. Don't make retards; even partial ones.

Any particular reason to restrict this to before birth? Why not kill infants with diseases, the way the Romans did it? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide#Greece_and_Rome [wikipedia.org]

Re:Down's syndrome and abortion (1, Insightful)

kramulous (977841) | more than 5 years ago | (#25912507)

Or, prevent births from those deemed unfit [wikipedia.org] .

Suck em out (-1, Troll)

KasperMeerts (1305097) | more than 5 years ago | (#25911799)

Isn't an abortion a lot cheaper? I mean, with these genetic misfits being somehow a part of society, we could be doing some damage to our gene pool.

Re:Suck em out (5, Interesting)

sydbarrett74 (74307) | more than 5 years ago | (#25911833)

Isn't an abortion a lot cheaper? I mean, with these genetic misfits being somehow a part of society, we could be doing some damage to our gene pool.

Erm, in case your remark isn't facetious: individuals with Down's Syndrome are typically sterile.

Re:Suck em out (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25911955)

that's a relief. I always bareback when I fuck downies.

Re:Suck em out (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25913699)

You mean I've been using this protection all this time for nothing! ARRRHHH!!

Nice troll, but... (1)

EWAdams (953502) | more than 5 years ago | (#25911845)

... as Down's syndrome people seldom reproduce, no, we're not doing damage to the gene pool.

Some interesting questions might be asked about the ability of Down's syndrome sufferers to look after themselves after their parents have died, and who does it if they can't. I don't know the answers, though.

Re:Nice troll, but... (4, Insightful)

glittalogik (837604) | more than 5 years ago | (#25912205)

As a general rule their intellectual development will freeze at around the level of a 4th or 5th grader, but they are capable of the emotional maturity and ability to complete of domestic tasks to keep themselves alive. They can often do quite well in a sharehouse/hostel kind of environment with a part-time carer or health professional available to help them with complex tasks or issues. Complete independence is unlikely (although possible in some cases) but they're not helpless.

Re:Nice troll, but... (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25913429)

A friend told me about a young man with Downs syndrome who is adept at arithmetic. He lives alone and works as an accountant. Not bad at all for someone with his condition. If only us "normal" people all had the winning attitude and supportive family this man has...

Re:Nice troll, but... (2, Interesting)

jamesh (87723) | more than 5 years ago | (#25912445)

It's uncommon but they can reproduce.

I think the nature of Down's though is that they seldom outlive their parents - life expectancy is much lower.

Re:Suck em out (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25912511)

i agree with you. if animals don't have rights, as recently the majority of slashdotters stated, than i think retards don't have rights either. suck them out with a vacuum and flush them down the toilet. it's better than they deserve.

It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (1, Insightful)

0xdeadbeef (28836) | more than 5 years ago | (#25911855)

There's already a treatment guaranteed to prevent the expression of these symptoms: abortion.

Oh, I know the every sperm is sacred types will whine about this, but consider the desires of the child. Wouldn't you prefer never to have existed if you knew you would be subjected to mental retardation, health complications, and a short lifespan?

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (0, Offtopic)

tgd (2822) | more than 5 years ago | (#25911883)

Wish I had mod points. You deserve some for being absolutely right while likely getting flamed into oblivion for it.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (4, Insightful)

stranger_to_himself (1132241) | more than 5 years ago | (#25914625)

Wish I had mod points. You deserve some for being absolutely right while likely getting flamed into oblivion for it.

The GP is not right. All the things he mentions are relative, not absolute. People with DS can lead happy, fulfilling lives, and that's really the only thing that matters in this case. Before you judge the value of the lives of people with DS you should ask them whether they would have preferred not to have been born.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (3, Interesting)

tgd (2822) | more than 5 years ago | (#25914841)

Can? Sure.

Need to? Hell no, not in a world overpopulated by a factor of 2-5.

I don't have to ask anyone to judge their value in that context. At its coldest, its not hard to judge absolute value -- what is the benefit a birth will bring to society versus its cost.

If you want to talk relative vs absolute, there's a pretty significant percentage of people who end up in the red on that count.

If society has a certain amount of resources available to support the raising of the next generation, and the birth of the child in question will use the resources that otherwise could've been used for ten children without fundamental genetic defects, that's a pretty absolute value judgment as well.

The GP is absolutely right -- we as a society (particularly in the US) fail miserably at making rational judgment calls because of a misguided and unjustified assignment of irrational amounts of value to a bunch of cells.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (3, Insightful)

stranger_to_himself (1132241) | more than 5 years ago | (#25914963)

I don't have to ask anyone to judge their value in that context. At its coldest, its not hard to judge absolute value -- what is the benefit a birth will bring to society versus its cost.

If you want to talk relative vs absolute, there's a pretty significant percentage of people who end up in the red on that count.

How do you measure the benefits and costs to society? In dollar value? That would be pretty much impossible, certainly in the case of benefits. How can you quanify the benefits a person brings?

If society has a certain amount of resources available to support the raising of the next generation, and the birth of the child in question will use the resources that otherwise could've been used for ten children without fundamental genetic defects, that's a pretty absolute value judgment as well.

I don't agree with this. A society is about people giving and taking. Different people give and take different amounts and this varies with their environment and the stage of their life. I know of people with DS who definately contribute more than they take. Converesly I know of a lot of people who take considerably more than they give. I wouldn't advocate killing people on that basis.

Incidentally I'd be interested to know how you get the over-populated by 2-5 figure. I'm not arguing with it, I'm just curious.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (3, Insightful)

Microlith (54737) | more than 5 years ago | (#25911891)

I think the point of this is more in figuring out how to, step by step, intercept and prevent the syndrome entirely.

Sure, abortion prevents it as well. But the option to defeat the syndrome during development and not have it expressed at all in a living person would be better.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25912097)

Down's is caused by an extra chromosome, it's impossible to defeat the syndrome during development without modifying the genetic code of every cell in the body.

Abortion should be an option for those who agree with it, but those who don't and who belong to high-risk groups (women in their late forties who do not agree with contraception either) need to understand that they are playing Russian roulette, which is fitting if they can see Russia from their house.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (1)

spazdor (902907) | more than 5 years ago | (#25912401)

it's impossible to defeat the syndrome during development without modifying the genetic code of every cell in the body.

So what you're saying is, it might be easier when the body consists of fewer cells?

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (2, Insightful)

Thiez (1281866) | more than 5 years ago | (#25912753)

> So what you're saying is, it might be easier when the body consists of fewer cells?

It will be easier but still impossible. You would have to remove a complete choromose from every cell in the body. We cannot even remove a single chromosome from a cell, by the time it is possible to diagnose downs syndrome, there are millions/billions of cells already. Even if such a treatment were possible (and I daresay this will not happen during our lifetimes), it would have all kinds of risks, and it would probably be ridiculously expensive.

Why even go there? Just get an abortion and try again. I'm sure medical science has more important things to cure.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (1)

macbutch (827717) | more than 5 years ago | (#25914483)

>It will be easier but still impossible.

Aah, I love easy impossible things...

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (0)

morari (1080535) | more than 5 years ago | (#25912143)

Would it really be better? The world is already over populated and resources will only become rarer as time goes on. Humanity needs a new natural predator or plague.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (0)

Culture20 (968837) | more than 5 years ago | (#25912179)

The world is already over populated and resources will only become rarer as time goes on. Humanity needs a new natural predator or plague.

If you live in the U.S., I hope the FBI has figured out the methods you plan to use to cull humanity, and are working diligently to prevent them. In the mean time, you might want to take a google maps look at the Western U.S. and Canada. Lots of empty space.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (2, Insightful)

Thiez (1281866) | more than 5 years ago | (#25912787)

> In the mean time, you might want to take a google maps look at the Western U.S. and Canada.

There may be space for more more people, but do you really think we could support even the 6 billion people we have now if all of them would have american standards of living?

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (0, Troll)

Iamthecheese (1264298) | more than 5 years ago | (#25912335)

Thats right, more people need to die! you go first.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (1)

Lord Kano (13027) | more than 5 years ago | (#25913833)

Would it really be better? The world is already over populated and resources will only become rarer as time goes on. Humanity needs a new natural predator or plague.

If you really believed this, you could help save the planet today. Jump off of a building.

LK

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (2, Insightful)

Darkness404 (1287218) | more than 5 years ago | (#25911895)

And to your solution I have another, if the kid really feels that way, there is an easy way: suicide. If they felt that it was best not to have existed they can kill themselves. But honestly, I don't see any sky-high suicide rates for mentally impaired people, dying people or people with health conditions.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (2, Insightful)

powerspike (729889) | more than 5 years ago | (#25911945)

maybe that is because they don't fully understand what they are missing, or just can't compehend it ?

did you everthink of that.

and to see it from the other pov, once you are aware you have life, you want to keep it. (well most of us do).

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (4, Funny)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 5 years ago | (#25912039)

maybe that is because they don't fully understand what they are missing, or just can't compehend it ?

I tend to assume that's why most of the people who aren't me haven't committed suicide. Slashdot trolls: the reason 59th trimester abortions should be legal.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (5, Insightful)

Chuck Chunder (21021) | more than 5 years ago | (#25912397)

maybe that is because they don't fully understand what they are missing, or just can't compehend it ?

did you everthink of that.

They? What about you? I'm sure there's plenty you don't comprehend and are missing but don't know about.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (1)

yakiimo (1024339) | more than 5 years ago | (#25912901)

Mod parent up please. I can't believe the eugenics trolls are getting higher mod points on slashdot than comments like this. Unbelievable.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (1, Troll)

0xdeadbeef (28836) | more than 5 years ago | (#25913799)

You don't like hearing the stark truth, so you call me a troll.

I've probably thought about this issue far more than the knee-jerkers responding to me. I was born with enough complications that I'd have been dead half a century earlier. I still marvel that not only did I survive, I did so with high intelligence and good physical health. I am my abilities, and if I were destined to be without them, I'd rather my parents had thrown that four pound runt into the dumpster.

How many of you are willing to live deformed, retarded, and destined for a premature death? Would you trade your lives to give one of these children a normal life? Would you sacrifice the resources spent on you and your children to care for someone else's burden, only because they believe fetuses have souls and killing them is murder?

To hell with them. No child should be born to suffer, to be anything less than fully human.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (3, Insightful)

yakiimo (1024339) | more than 5 years ago | (#25915073)

I don't want to minimize whatever it is you have been through, but it's presumptuous of you to call everyone else's knee-jerk reactions as if you are the only person who has problems or has dealt with mental or genetic "disorders". You obviously don't have Down's Syndrome, so why do you think everyone with Down's would share your view if they were "normal"?

It sounds like you have setup a false dichotomy in your mind somehow that people are either "human" or not. Evolution has shown us otherwise innumerable times. Today's "disorder" could be tomorrow's critical survival trait.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (1)

Jugalator (259273) | more than 5 years ago | (#25914691)

maybe that is because they don't fully understand what they are missing, or just can't compehend it ?

Then what is the problem?

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (4, Insightful)

Shados (741919) | more than 5 years ago | (#25912053)

No, they can't. Everyone will do everything they can to stop them, they'll have long periods of trauma and depressions, if they miss they'll be put in a psychiatric hospital, and it may make things worse.

In this world, killing yourself is potentially harder than killing someone else.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25912817)

> In this world, killing yourself is potentially harder than killing someone else.

I hear you! Ever since I killed my mother-in-law, I'm afraid she's waiting for me in hell. These days even crossing the street scares the crap out of me, suicide would be unthinkable!

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (3, Insightful)

Bottlemaster (449635) | more than 5 years ago | (#25913851)

And to your solution I have another, if the kid really feels that way, there is an easy way: suicide.

So I can commit any atrocity I want as long as I give my victims the option of suicide to escape it?

Suicide is actually a terrible thing, even (especially?) for those who commit it. I don't think it's humane to say "Oh, you don't like the life we forced you to have or the world we forced you to live in? Kill yourself!". Actually, I think you're sick.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (1)

Ihlosi (895663) | more than 5 years ago | (#25914615)

So I can commit any atrocity I want as long as I give my victims the option of suicide to escape it?

How is not killing someone who doesn't express explicit desire to be dead an atrocity again?

Suicide is actually a terrible thing, even (especially?) for those who commit it.

So is killing someone without their explicit approval.

I don't think it's humane to say "Oh, you don't like the life we forced you to have or the world we forced you to live in? Kill yourself!". Actually, I think you're sick.

Uh huh. So it's more humane to say, "Well, we're pretty sure that you're not going to like your life, so we're going to take it away from you whether you like it or not."?

The original arguement (1)

phorm (591458) | more than 5 years ago | (#25915373)

Actually, I think the original argument around this wasn't that they *should* commit suicide, but rather that if those with Down's Syndrome etc were extremely unhappy with life then the stats for suicides/attempts among that group would be rather high. As it's not, perhaps they don't find life all that bad...

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (2, Insightful)

dissy (172727) | more than 5 years ago | (#25915445)

And to your solution I have another, if the kid really feels that way, there is an easy way: suicide. If they felt that it was best not to have existed they can kill themselves. But honestly, I don't see any sky-high suicide rates for mentally impaired people, dying people or people with health conditions.

While possibly true, two details remain.

Abortion is legal, where suicide is illegal.

And once a person tries to kill themselves, they are locked down so they can't use their hands nor move. Most people don't consider that an improvement to their life style.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (5, Insightful)

c_sd_m (995261) | more than 5 years ago | (#25911907)

The people I know with disabilities, particularly mental ones, are generally happier than the rest of us.
Have you ever spent time with someone with Down's Syndrome, severe Autism, ...?

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (4, Informative)

neuromanc3r (1119631) | more than 5 years ago | (#25911969)

I have spent quite a lot of time with autists (worked at a school for disabled children), and they are generally not happy people. (By pointing that out I am not trying to support the gp's point!)
You're right about people with Down's syndrome though.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (1)

spazdor (902907) | more than 5 years ago | (#25912425)

Misnomer.

It should really be called Up syndrome.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (2, Interesting)

Ethanol-fueled (1125189) | more than 5 years ago | (#25913895)

Having done a few charity stints with the disabled as well as knowing friends and family with afflicted relatives, I know that many people with down's syndrome and similar disabilities are well aware of their being treated unequally to other people. They soon realize that they can use their disability to their advantage and they fully utilize it whenever possible.

Like children, they may not be demonstratively conscious of the way the world works, but they're chock full of raw instinct. Dogs have the emotional maturity of a 3 year old human but you can still look into a dog's eyes and know exactly what they're feeling.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (3, Insightful)

0xdeadbeef (28836) | more than 5 years ago | (#25912043)

Then perhaps the solution for a perfectly happy society is to lobotimize ourselves, become completely dependent on our caregivers, and die at thirty.

Wait, isn't that Logan's Run?

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (1)

Markspark (969445) | more than 5 years ago | (#25912465)

or just hand out Soma.. psychotropic drugs FTW!

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (1)

Neuticle (255200) | more than 5 years ago | (#25914271)

Actually, Soma by itself is only mildly psychotropic at the commonly prescribed dose, but it is a strong potentiator of opioids, so mix your poisons carefully.

Yes, it's a real drug (a skeletal muscle relaxant), and I couldn't stop myself from giggling when I filled my prescription a few years back.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carisoprodol [wikipedia.org]

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (1)

Weedlekin (836313) | more than 5 years ago | (#25915009)

The word "Soma" dates back to at least the 10th century BCE, was probably in use before the 25th century BCE, and is thought to be a tea made from Asian ephedra (which contains alkaloids not present in American ephedra), a stimulant that constricts blood vessels and increases blood pressure and heart rate, so it has a very different effect indeed from Carisoprodol.

Archaeological evidence indicates that, unlike the version of Soma used by Zoroastrians, the ancient Aryan one that many historians think is the source for references to Soma in the Indian Rigveda probably contained cannabis and opium together with the ephedra, which may well go a long way towards explaining why some of the verses in that document are so confusing!

So I'll see your Wikipedia link, and raise you two more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soma [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephedra [wikipedia.org]

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (1)

denzacar (181829) | more than 5 years ago | (#25912051)

There is graveyard near where I live.

Its full of people with no problems at all. From where I stand, they must be VERY happy.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (1)

Rakarra (112805) | more than 5 years ago | (#25914341)

The mentally retarded kid (back then we weren't told whether it was Downs, Autism, etc) I went to school with back in the day spent a good portion of his time angry and frustrated that he wasn't "getting" things like the other kids were. He'd usually be ok, say, out on the playground, but not in class.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (1)

TheLink (130905) | more than 5 years ago | (#25914991)

I hear many of the smart ones in the US schools are unhappy in the playground and sometimes even in class too.

There's a lot more "outside" than "inside", so maybe we should euthanize the smart ones ;).

I sure see lots of stupid people around here (including me), we're lucky that nobody is going around euthanizing us just because we don't meet some arbitrary standard.

Seriously, in the long run the odds appear to be => we are all dead. Even if we somehow make it out of this solar system to another viable one, we're likely to be still doomed in the long run.

But I bet we're going to try anyway.

Why? Because the creatures that went "It's too hard, dying is easier" on the first sign of trouble, died out billions of years ago.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25914851)

At the risk of coming across as cold, who says it's about the children? If I was pregnant with a child with down syndrome, I'd have an abortion for my OWN sake. Others are free to not do so, but I at least wouldn't want to raise a child like that.

I mean... raise a child that will eventually grow up to be able to sustain themselves and lead their own life? Sure. Raise a child that will depend on me for the rest of their life? Sorry, I'm not going to sign up for life without parole if I can help it.

Also (5, Insightful)

Chuck Chunder (21021) | more than 5 years ago | (#25911965)

Shooting people in the head means they won't get cancer!

I'm not sure what your experience is but I've met and known quite a few people with Downs Syndrome who seemed happy. Certainly as happy as the rest of us at any rate.

It seems rather ridiculous to assume their lives aren't worth living. What next, deciding a childs life isn't going to be worth it because they aren't as sexy as Hugh Jackman or hung like Ron Jeremy?

Re:Also (3, Funny)

glittalogik (837604) | more than 5 years ago | (#25912413)

If being hung like Ron Jeremy meant I had to look like Ron Jeremy, I'd probably pass.

Re:Also (4, Funny)

spazdor (902907) | more than 5 years ago | (#25912435)

What next, deciding a childs life isn't going to be worth it because they aren't as sexy as Hugh Jackman or hung like Ron Jeremy?

You mean, you aren't? And yet you keep pressing on everyday, you brave little soldier...

Re:Also (1)

orasio (188021) | more than 5 years ago | (#25912923)

Well, if my children were not to be sexier than Ron Jeremy, I would consider abortion.

Re:Also (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25913443)

Defending people from abortion who already exited the womb means absolutely nothing.

Re:Also (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25913529)

phew... at least I would have been safe...

Re:Also (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25914143)

Ron, is that you?

Re:Also (1)

discord5 (798235) | more than 5 years ago | (#25914437)

Shooting people in the head means they won't get cancer!

I smell a nobel prize idea here...

Re:Also (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25914773)

invented by shampoo

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (1, Insightful)

message144 (1246846) | more than 5 years ago | (#25912041)

"I know the every sperm is sacred types will whine about this"

FYI, sperm != human life.

"Wouldn't you prefer never to have existed if you knew you would be subjected to mental retardation, health complications, and a short lifespan"

What qualifications do you have to make this decision on behalf of others?

Moral Atrophy, not a moral trophy (1)

DynaSoar (714234) | more than 5 years ago | (#25912149)

Wouldn't you prefer never to have existed if you knew you would be subjected to mental retardation, health complications, and a short lifespan?

"Good point. You may go." -- Your friends, Orange Roughy (140 years), Bristlecone Pine (4500 years), Galapagos Tortise (150 years).

To preempt complaints regarding non-human intelligence, we defer to Douglas Adams on the subject of humans, dolphins and digital watches.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (1, Funny)

apparently (756613) | more than 5 years ago | (#25912233)

Wouldn't you prefer never to have existed if you knew you would be subjected to mental retardation, health complications, and a short lifespan?

It depends -- for how long would I get to suck on Palin's tah-tah's? I mean, theoretically, that's a perk you could probably -ahem- milk for a few years, no?

Apparently, the Eugenics Movement lives (2, Insightful)

DesScorp (410532) | more than 5 years ago | (#25912421)

There's already a treatment guaranteed to prevent the expression of these symptoms: abortion.

I know I'm violating Godwin's Law here, but in this case, to hell with Godwin. Nice answer there, Mein Heir; tell us, what are your exacting standards for the rest of humanity? Who else gets the axe in your perfect world?

Who the hell are you to tell people what kind of contribution they can make in this world? Who the hell are you to determine who gets to live and who has to die without even a chance for life? I've never in my 40 years met a family that regretted their Downs child. I've never met a family that didn't consider those children a blessing.

These kids may not be capable of everything we are, but every Downs kid I've ever met is a far better human than you are. You're a rotten little man.

Re:Apparently, the Eugenics Movement lives (5, Insightful)

Shados (741919) | more than 5 years ago | (#25912645)

What you've never met isn't people who regretted their childs. That is actually extremely common. What you have never met, is people who, in this polically correct society (and in other society that has similar levels of peer pressure), will admit to it, even to their closest confidents.

Considering your stance on the matter, which you seem to hold pretty dear from the wording you use (and you are fully entitled to it, I'm not saying you're wrong or anything), I doubt anyone would EVER dare tell you that they regretted their child, down's syndrom or not.

To give a different point of view, at the risk of getting flamed to hell and beyond, I really, really despise kids (don't worrie, I'll never have to make my significant other go through an abortion... snip snip and all, thats all taken care of). Like, really, REALLY hate kids. Everyone around me knows my stance on this. Because of this, I had a LOT of mothers and families tell me in secret how they wish they never had their kids. In certain cases, that they didn't even love them, but that they still did what they could so it wouldn't show. None of those were disabled child's families, either. And to make things clear, I don't live in a ghetto, and the people I'm talking about came from all kinds of families, from poor to rich, etc.

Only in Wonderland does all families consider their kids blessings, ESPECIALLY kids with issues. They may not admit it, they may WANT to love them. That doesn't mean they do.

Re:Apparently, the Eugenics Movement lives (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25914545)

that's because people have children because that's what everyone does, the marry because that's what everyone does, its the programming of the society, marry, have sex, have kids, die. Most people like only the second, but do all four because they think they want to.

Re:Apparently, the Eugenics Movement lives (2, Interesting)

Leafheart (1120885) | more than 5 years ago | (#25915331)

Only in Wonderland does all families consider their kids blessings, ESPECIALLY kids with issues. They may not admit it, they may WANT to love them. That doesn't mean they do.

I have a relative with Down's. She is 22 now with the mind of a 14 year old. Now, she is damn happy, as she was in a good part of her life. Happy, but depressed. Knowing how difficult everything was, trying to understand and not been able to rationalize why, and more important, why her.

But sometimes it is not about the kids, it is about the parents. You have no bloody idea how hard it is, how tiresome and how horrible things can be. You may believe that there is this lovable all-powerful man that sent this child to test you, your fate, and if you fail you go to this very miserable place, but I don't. And given the choice, and more important the knowledge that my child would be born with down, or any other very serious handicap I would ask for my gf\wife\whatever to abort. If she didn't want, well, she would have to raise the child alone, because that is something I don't want to pass through again.

Re:Apparently, the Eugenics Movement lives (0, Flamebait)

4D6963 (933028) | more than 5 years ago | (#25912735)

Oh drop the fucking violins. It's exactly like saying that anyone who has a child doesn't regret having them, despite having considered abortion. That doesn't mean that you should get rid of abortion just because "you'll see in the end you'll love your child". Of course people love their children, it's (due to) an evolutionary trait, that doesn't mean that people want a disabled kid but that they just don't know it yet. If you stopped making it sound like these are the bee's knees, everyone knows that raising such a child is very difficult. Plus, parents tend to outlive such of their offsprings, which is something no parent wants. Anyone who wants to make such a child must have twisted morals and a twisted sense of self interest.

Re:Apparently, the Eugenics Movement lives (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25913455)

Not only are you violating Godwin's Law, it doesn't even make any sense bringing it up, you fucking douche. Nazi Germany was hardly the only country.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenic#United_States [wikipedia.org]
The United States were the first country to introduce compulsory sterilization and had plenty of them long into the 60's.

AC because of spent modpoints

Re:Apparently, the Eugenics Movement lives (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25914481)

Mein Heir

Really? At least do a fucking google search, asshole.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (2, Insightful)

MrMista_B (891430) | more than 5 years ago | (#25912653)

There are people in the world who are healthier, fitter, and smarter than you. Compared to them, you're disabled.

Should you therefore, according to your logic, be executed?

Yeah, if this was applied to mental retardation... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25912687)

If abortion was applied to mental retardation, you wouldn't be here.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (2, Insightful)

yakiimo (1024339) | more than 5 years ago | (#25912891)

How incredibly small minded. How do you think the super-genius thinks about your pitiful, semi-intelligent existence? Does that diminish the value you place on your own life?

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (2, Insightful)

orasio (188021) | more than 5 years ago | (#25912895)

Everybody might have health complications. I am happy to live, even if I have thyroid dysfunction, and early graying.

Shorter lifespans are not so much of an issue. People smoke, eat a lot, and don't exercise, everyday, everywhere.

That leaves us with the central issue: the mental "retardation" problem.
In my case, I wouldn't mind having a much lower IQ than I have now. Most people I know do, and they are happy. I don't think rational abilities are that much important for a good life.

I know several individuals with the syndrome, and they seem to like living a lot. They are not drooling pieces of furniture, they are real people with feelings, hopes, and limitations, just like us. It's true they never grow up, but who needs to?

I think the issue is that they don't do real work, so they can't be assured a decent living in most societies. I understand getting rid of them is the easiest solution, but I don't think it's the only one.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (5, Insightful)

arb phd slp (1144717) | more than 5 years ago | (#25913237)

There is a continuous spectrum of cognitive capacity from near-vegetative to super-genius. Are we supposed to decide people's right to live based on arbitrary cut-offs on tests that we already know aren't perfectly valid? Absolutely not.

I really wish that my advisor would get her study submitted and published so that I could link to it here. (I'm sure she says the same thing about my own as well).

She's been doing early intervention with DS kids much earlier than ever before and providing high-tech means for them to communicate. After 5 years the kids are entering school on-par with their peers.

It is starting to look like mental retardation is a secondary symptom of DS, not a primary one. DS results in SPEECH disability, which messes up language development, which in turn screws up cognitive development. We've been providing an alternative, non-speech, means to communication development and it has led to surprisingly positive results in cognition development. (This falls into the category of "manuscript in progress" and hasn't been published in a peer-reviewed journal yet, but I expect it to pass that hurdle in the next year or so).
Here is a description of the study methods.
http://www.aac-rerc.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=135&Itemid=152 [aac-rerc.com]
It's in Breeze. Sorry about that.

So, if it becomes known that Down syndrome only causes mental retardation when we fail to provide the right care and education, do you still think that abortion/eugenics is an appropriate treatment???

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25914293)

Please mod this up. I blew all 15 of my mod points on yesterday's posts, and this is far worthier of points than any of those.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (1)

orasio (188021) | more than 5 years ago | (#25915229)

Hmmm... maybe you replied the wrong post.
I was posting in your general direction, only not so assertive, because I don't have the argumentative means, only my personal experience.

About abortion, I live in an South American country. That kind of treatment is something few can afford here. I think it comes down to money right now. The choice has to take into account whether what you can afford is a good life for the kid. It is a difficult choice, and I would understand both sides.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25915237)

So, if it becomes known that Down syndrome only causes mental retardation when we fail to provide the right care and education, do you still think that abortion/eugenics is an appropriate treatment???

Yes. I believe parents should have the choice to do just that. And not just legally, but have both choices be socially acceptable also.

Trying to convince somebody to keep a child or to abort it is just wrong. A child should only be brought into the world when the parents are going to happily accept and love it. So parents that discover the fetus has a disability should be given support, advice and no pressure either way.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (1)

shawn(at)fsu (447153) | more than 5 years ago | (#25912905)

When all you have is a hammer all your problems look like nails

I'll assume your not suggesting that all fetus should be aborted, and that it should be forced. So we'll go from there. If the mother decides to carry the pregnancy to term whats the wrong with preventing the child from suffering some of the debilitating side effects of DS.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (2, Insightful)

the_Bionic_lemming (446569) | more than 5 years ago | (#25912935)

There's already a treatment guaranteed to prevent the expression of these symptoms: abortion.

Oh, I know the every sperm is sacred types will whine about this, but consider the desires of the child. Wouldn't you prefer never to have existed if you knew you would be subjected to mental retardation, health complications, and a short lifespan?

Yes, because no parent would ever want the option to save their child, and have them grow up normally.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (3, Funny)

Lord Kano (13027) | more than 5 years ago | (#25913819)

Wouldn't you prefer never to have existed if you knew you would be subjected to mental retardation, health complications, and a short lifespan?

Shitty attitude aside, you seem to be doing just fine.

LK

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25914097)

90% of women who learn about the condition during pregnacy in fact abort. in quite a number of cases it's too late to perform a standard abortion, those women give birth to the child and it dies during the procedure.

you obviously do not have the slightest idea what you're talking about. short lifespan was yesterday, trisomie 21 humans get 60+ these days. statistically, they have a higher rate of health complications. so do fat people or people with other genetic preconditions. and what qualifies you to judge the life quality and the self awareness of humans you don't know!?

basically, you're just an eugenic jerk....

We're all retarded (1)

TheLink (130905) | more than 5 years ago | (#25914933)

Pet dog:

Happy? Usually unless badly mistreated.
Stupid? Yes.
Short lifespan? Yes.
Health complications? Yes for many breeds.
Requires lots of care and attention? Typically.

If you're stupid enough, you might not even know what's the big deal about being stupid.

What really would be sad would be something like in the story "Flowers for Algernon", but that already kind of happens to people with Alzheimers or age onset dementia.

Lastly, if Bush really does get away with what he has done then he's smarter than most of the US citizens.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (1)

Tragedy4u (690579) | more than 5 years ago | (#25915153)

Prefer never to have existed? Have you even seen someone with Downs Syndrome? Most of them have a perpetual smile on their face. When you're lacking intelligence, you're often too stupid to understand what you should worry about...ignorance really is bliss.

Not quite comprehending (1)

sleeponthemic (1253494) | more than 5 years ago | (#25911925)

The article use of the pregnant woman knowing and preventing. It isn't a bad summary and the article doesn't seem to make clear.

I was looking for some sense that knowledge of the condition might produce some automatic results from the mother's body. But, that was before I realised it was impossible to communicate with mice. Atleast, without a babelfish.

Good news everyone! (4, Funny)

neuromanc3r (1119631) | more than 5 years ago | (#25911981)

US researchers have found that prenatal treatment for Down syndrome works in mice.

Today is a happy day for all mousekind!

Re:Good news everyone! (4, Funny)

Cassius Corodes (1084513) | more than 5 years ago | (#25912013)

If only we knew this before, Mickey Mouse wouldn't have been such a retard.

Re:Good news everyone! (1)

glittalogik (837604) | more than 5 years ago | (#25912427)

Dammit, he could have been Dr. Mickey Mouse =(

Re:Good news everyone! (1)

TeknoHog (164938) | more than 5 years ago | (#25913951)

Don't you mean Minnie, she's the one who's fucking goofy...

Re:Good news everyone! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25915337)

It seems Minnie and Goofy had some secret relationship I don't know of...

Joe the Retard (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25912977)

They should have done this for Palin's grandson. You know, Branch or whatever his name is.

Re:Joe the Retard (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25913157)

Trig. His name is Trig.

Kinda like calling a kid with no arms and no legs "long jump".

Re:Joe the Retard (1)

dreamchaser (49529) | more than 5 years ago | (#25913227)

It's also her son, not her grandson as GP spewed.

Tag: FALCON PUNCH (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25913901)

n/t

Disabled does not mean "Better off Dead". (4, Insightful)

mumb0.jumb0 (1419117) | more than 5 years ago | (#25914775)

I'm shocked by how many people have said "it's cheaper just to abort". Since when did human life become so cheap? Or to those that have said "the child would rather have not been born than to be born with Down syndrome": how can you possibly speak for that child? Who are you to make that life and death decision on their behalf? Disabled does not mean "better off dead". Did nobody else see the article about Stephen Hawking on the front page today? This is about preventing or reducing a disability. It's about giving a person a better chance at life. Think of it this way: if you were going to be born with a malformed left arm, but it could be rectified in the womb, what would you choose? Death or a normal arm?
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