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Persistence Pays Off With Israel's First Windows Refund

timothy posted more than 5 years ago | from the paving-the-way dept.

The Almighty Buck 84

As Niv Lilian reports at Ynet News, Haifa (and the Haifa Linux Club)'s Zvi Devir just preferred to run Linux rather than the pre-installed Windows on his newly bought Dell computer, and didn't want to pay for the unwanted Windows system. Now Devir has prevailed, after a fight in Israeli small-claims court, to become the first Israeli to obtain a Windows refund (also in Hebrew), winning the $137 that Windows added to the cost of his machine and escaping the nondisclosure agreement that Dell had wanted him to abide by as a condition. Perhaps others will follow his lead. Update: 12/03 23:02 GMT by T : Zvi Devir wrote with an update: "BTW, the settlement was out of court, before any court sessions took place."

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what a surprise (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25980205)

who would have thought a jew doesn't want to pay?

Re:what a surprise (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25980301)

A jew is the current high bidder on this! [slashdot.org]

Not even implied (5, Insightful)

jDeepbeep (913892) | more than 5 years ago | (#25980441)

Nowhere in this summary does it say he is a Jew. Just pointing out the obvious. There is a difference between the terms 'Israeli' and 'Jew'

Re:Not even implied (-1, Flamebait)

Eli Gottlieb (917758) | more than 5 years ago | (#25980835)

Well true, but all Israelis are cheap and like to avoid paying for software anyway -- Jew or Arab.

Re:Not even implied (4, Funny)

idontgno (624372) | more than 5 years ago | (#25980881)

Well true, but all humans are cheap and like to avoid paying for anything anyway.

There, corrected that for you.

Re:Not even implied (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25983705)

Holy shit you're a retard. Good luck ever finding a job after google indexes this page.

Re:Not even implied (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25986483)

As Nelson would say, "Ha Ha".

Re:Not even implied (1)

dintech (998802) | more than 5 years ago | (#25986527)

Except with a Jewish name (Eli) and a previous comments in his history stating that he's Jewish, I'm sure his prospective employers will get the joke. I'm British and so I get to make joke about strereotypes such as teeth and queueing. It's one of the few perks...

Re:Not even implied (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25980963)

Well, according to Wikipedia [wikipedia.org] 76% of the population of Israel is Jewish. So while there is a difference between "Israeli" and "Jew", it's not a particularly large difference.

Re:Not even implied (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25981781)

Actually, I'd say a 24% chance of being wrong is a pretty large difference.

Re:Not even implied (2, Insightful)

Locke2005 (849178) | more than 5 years ago | (#25980997)

With a name like "Zvi Devir" and a home in Haifa, I think there's a good chance he's not Catholic! That being said, he should be called an Israeli, not a Jew.

Re:Not even implied (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25981189)

Rule of thumb:

If it has a V - it's a Hebrew name, probably a Jew (but a slight possibility of assimilated Arab or Christian).

If it has a W (and isn't a German name like Weissman) - it's an Arabic name, they're definitely an Arab.

Re:Not even implied (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25981139)

Anything in Hebrew is Jewish. According to Wikipedia [wikipedia.org] , Hebrew is "studied mostly by Jews and students of Judaism and Israel".

Suppose you see a bird walking around in a farm yard. This bird has no label that says 'duck'. But the bird certainly looks like a duck. Also, he goes to the pond and you notice that he swims like a duck. Then he opens his beak and quacks like a duck. Well, by this time you have probably reached the conclusion that the bird is a duck, whether he's wearing a label or not.

Sure there is no label on this that says "Jew", however, based on contextual evidence can conclude that the person responsible for this likely practices Judaism.

Re:Not even implied (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25981505)

Sure there is no label on this that says "Jew", however, based on contextual evidence can conclude that the person responsible for this likely practices Judaism.

Since you want to talk statistics, 37% of Israelis are atheist or agnostic [google.com] . That suggests to me that they don't "practice" Judaism at least in a religious, worship the supernatural way, although many may identify culturally/ethnically with Judaism and still maintain their traditionally Jewish lifestyles, ethical values, and heritage.

It's a witch! (1)

mangu (126918) | more than 5 years ago | (#25981509)

But the bird certainly looks like a duck. Also, he goes to the pond and you notice that he swims like a duck. Then he opens his beak and quacks like a duck.

Does this bird weigh as much as a duck?

Re:Not even implied (5, Insightful)

K. S. Kyosuke (729550) | more than 5 years ago | (#25981721)

He might be a Jew by birth, but Israel is a suprisingly secular state, compared to what an uninformed person might think (considering the fact that it was the religion that held the Jewish population together in the past millenia). And a substantial percentage of citizens of Israel do not practice Judaism the way their ancestors did. Perhaps this has something to do with the views of the founders of their state?

Re:Not even implied (0, Flamebait)

lbane (1329209) | more than 5 years ago | (#25984527)

Israel is a zionist state, Created by the bastard Rothschild family, stolen from the Palestinians.

Re:Not even implied (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25984721)

Well said.

Re:Not even implied (1)

K. S. Kyosuke (729550) | more than 5 years ago | (#25989009)

Uhm, they have been living in that area for many centuries when the Palestinian Arabs first came.

Re:Not even implied (1)

anotherdjohnson (1239132) | more than 5 years ago | (#25994703)

It is very interesting that you would say it was "stolen" from the Palestinians. First of all there was not Palestinian state, the land was part of the Ottoman empire which was dissolved.

Was it stolen from the people that lived there at the time, perhaps. However, you can't blame just the British and the Israelis alone, NONE of the arab nations wanted anything to do with the Palestinians, and still don't!

Re:Not even implied (3, Informative)

blind biker (1066130) | more than 5 years ago | (#25981889)

You are absolutely right. However, may I note that Zvi is a very traditional Jewish male name. It means "deer".

Re:Not even implied (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25982393)

I hope it means "dear"

Re:Not even implied (1)

HateBreeder (656491) | more than 5 years ago | (#25982783)

no, it literally is "deer" (the animal).

not insightfull and off-topic.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25985837)

yet it gets +5.

funny.

and wrong, btw. with a name like Zvi you can bet the likelihood this guy is jewish is 99.999% with a margin of error of 0.001%.

Re:Not even implied (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25985871)

Does his religion makes any difference?
I think the issue here is getting a windows refund.
This is the first one in Israel, not the first one in the world.
It is good that we have as many cases as possible. The religion or nationality of the person does not make any difference.

Excellent. (1)

Anton Styles (1336251) | more than 5 years ago | (#25980231)

That's a great precedent.

Re:Excellent. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25983697)

Other than the fact that it's not a precedent, because it wasn't a court decision.....

Re:Excellent. (1)

Sun (104778) | more than 5 years ago | (#25985839)

And it wouldn't have become a precedent even had it gone to court, because it was a small claims court. Still, as far as the impact on the VENDORS, it is a precedent, which is, arguably, the important bit. Shachar

The Gates Are Now Open (3, Insightful)

toodeepforme (1370289) | more than 5 years ago | (#25980257)

Oh god, I am seriously fearing the flood that is to come. This will set a precedent(if only a small one), that could change the way computers are sold, as well as if windows will be considered "standard" software for much longer.

Re:The Gates Are Now Open (-1, Offtopic)

larry bagina (561269) | more than 5 years ago | (#25980435)

Thing again. Barack Obama accepted a lot of Microsoft Cash. Iran will have a nuclear bomb within a year. Buh Bye Israel!

Re:The Gates Are Now Open (1)

corsec67 (627446) | more than 5 years ago | (#25980517)

What, you think getting a refund for a Windows license is new [linux.com] ?

Re:The Gates Are Now Open (1)

SWroclawski (95770) | more than 5 years ago | (#25987237)

And it wasn't new when I wrote the article...

Re:The Gates Are Now Open (1)

Aphoxema (1088507) | more than 5 years ago | (#25980609)

Oh god, I am seriously fearing the flood that is to come. This will set a precedent(if only a small one), that could change the way computers are sold, as well as if windows will be considered "standard" software for much longer.

In Israel.

Re:The Gates Are Now Open (1)

Eli Gottlieb (917758) | more than 5 years ago | (#25980817)

Well yes. But if one thing is true of Israelis, it's that they do not give half a shit about copyright. The ones who don't actually want to run Linux will all claim Windoze refunds so they can install Windows with the pirate disk they bought at the market.

If the Israeli courts keep requiring that these refunds be issued, suddenly you will see all of Israel "running Linux".

Re:The Gates Are Now Open (0, Redundant)

Aphoxema (1088507) | more than 5 years ago | (#25980901)

An interesting prediction, I'll hope it comes true.

Re:The Gates Are Now Open (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25980775)

Why are you fearing that? Why should windows be considered "standard" software? Not all of us want to run windows on our computers so why should we be required to pay for a windows license as part of the cost of a new computer? Particularly an OEM license that we can't legally use on any other hardware?

If the cost of a windows license bundled with a new computer is $150 then why not sell machines at the normal price and allow the user to choose to get a machine with windows pre-installed, adding $150 to the cost?

Re:The Gates Are Now Open (2, Insightful)

jhantin (252660) | more than 5 years ago | (#25984451)

Because the license costs a high volume OEM about $60 and they bundle -$70 worth of free trial crapware [cnet.com] that only runs under Windows, so the Windows license comes at no cost to you and the OEM makes an extra $10 in the bargain. That's why a Linux box and a Windows box price out the same in practice.

Re:The Gates Are Now Open (1)

zippthorne (748122) | more than 5 years ago | (#25990093)

If you actually compare like to like, Dell is charging $608 for the following Linux machine vs. $669 if you buy with Vista installed. Now, the windows version comes with works, but the ubuntu version either comes with OO.org or it's just an apt-get away (or applications|add/remove).

Granted, you could get OO.org for he windows version too, but that presumes that Works, which can read some Office documents and writes.. rtf (only, I think) has value. Also, it appears that "no monitor" and Intel Celeron processor are not options offered with ubuntu, for what that's worth.

Dell Inspiron 530
PROCESSOR
                Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad processor Q6600 (8MB L2, 2.4GHz, 1066FSB)
OPERATING SYSTEM
                Ubuntu 8.04 with DVD Playback
WARRANTY AND SERVICE
                1Yr Ltd Hardware Warranty, InHome Service after Remote Diagnosis
MONITORS
                20 inch E207WFP Widescreen Digital Flat Panel â" Now Save $50
MEMORY
                2GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 800MHz- 2DIMMs
HARD DRIVE
                320GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache(TM)
OPTICAL DRIVE
                16x DVD+/-RW Drive
VIDEO CARD
                Integrated Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 3100
SOUND
                Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio
KEYBOARD & MOUSE
                Dell USB Keyboard and Dell Optical USB Mouse
FLOPPY & MEDIA READER
                No Floppy Drive Included

Foo! (1)

jhantin (252660) | more than 5 years ago | (#25995517)

If you actually compare like to like, Dell is charging $608 for the following Linux machine vs. $669 if you buy with Vista installed.

Touché. It's been some time since I last compared.

Re:The Gates Are Now Open (1)

toodeepforme (1370289) | more than 5 years ago | (#25989401)

Because in my opinion, most of the people who buy computers with windows preloaded are exactly the type of people that would choose it anyway, because face it. Most technically literate people, at least that I have met, have either bought standard high end machines, or have built their own, and installed whatever OS they please. And in regard to the belief that windows is not user friendly, and relatively easy to learn, it was my experience screwing around with Win. 98 that got me into computers, which did more for me than Mac did(which also played with, but for some reason Win. was more appealing to me. So basically, Windows is considered "standard" because people technically literate enough to pick and choose what OS they want are not generally the people who will buy a "standard" pc in the first place.

Re:The Gates Are Now Open (1)

erroneus (253617) | more than 5 years ago | (#25980907)

Yes, it might last longer than 40 days and 40 nights... ;)

What about the manufacturers? (1)

aliquis (678370) | more than 5 years ago | (#25981007)

When I mailed and asked some time, probably to Microsoft though, may had been a bad idea, I got the impression that one wouldn't be able to return only Windows but would have to return the whole machine.

Rather obvious that Microsoft would prefer it that way but ..

Is this true? Makes somewhat reasonable sense for the manufacturer to be able to set up rules like that.

Re:What about the manufacturers? (2, Informative)

cbiltcliffe (186293) | more than 5 years ago | (#25983749)

Depends what country you're in, probably.
Canada and the US have laws against bundling - requiring the purchase of one product to purchase another product.

So the manufacturer can't require you to buy Windows if you buy the computer hardware.

How it is in other countries, I have no idea.

Re:What about the manufacturers? (1)

Richard_at_work (517087) | more than 5 years ago | (#25988147)

So when are we going to have lawsuits about not getting the specific CPU or hard disk that you want when you buy a computer? Wheres my refund for just the disk? Just how stupid is this pick-and-choose going to get?

Re:What about the manufacturers? (1)

cbiltcliffe (186293) | more than 5 years ago | (#25989037)

The hardware is made/assembled by the same company (in theory. I know this doesn't happen.)
There is an obvious delineation between software and hardware, and it's made by a different company.

Besides, you can frequently specify what CPU and hard disk you want, even with big retailers like Dell, HP and the like.
You can't specify that you don't want Windows. At least, not in any way that doesn't require significant digging on their website.

There's also the problem that the hardware is yours to do with as you please after you've bought it. You can buy a Dell desktop, use it for a month, and then strip parts out and sell them if you want.

The software, you have to agree to draconian licence agreements before you even use it, one of which is, you can't separate it from the computer. This licence agreement also states that if you don't agree, you can return it for a refund.

They brought it on themselves. I have no sympathy.

Re:The Gates Are Now Open (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25981457)

"This will set a precedent(if only a small one), that could change the way computers are sold" - yes, the windows will be sold the same way as with Asus EEE - i.e. preinstalled, without any EULA to be read and agreed on.

Twitter troll, mod down (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25988547)

n/t

Re:The Gates Are Now Open (1)

pcdisorder (1426673) | more than 5 years ago | (#26031745)

I doubt this will be the case as most people click through the EULA without even knowing they are entering a contract (or caring) I addressed this issue in a blog post a few days ago here: http://www.pcdisorder.com/2008/12/no-means-no.html [pcdisorder.com]

Read the article. (4, Informative)

CannonballHead (842625) | more than 5 years ago | (#25980411)

This doesn't have to do with Windows as much as it has to do with Dell.

Basically, Dell said (in the EULA) that they would refund money if you don't agree to the terms. So that's what the guy did.

If anything, this just shows how few people read license agreements than anything else. And shows that, once again, 'customer support' still stinks :)

No details, either (1)

SgtChaireBourne (457691) | more than 5 years ago | (#25990427)

This doesn't have to do with Windows as much as it has to do with Dell.

Basically, Dell said (in the EULA) that they would refund money if you don't agree to the terms. So that's what the guy did.

If anything, this just shows how few people read license agreements than anything else. And shows that, once again, 'customer support' still stinks :)

The article is also basically devoid of any details regarding the methodology. There wasn't even anything at the Haifa Linux Club web site about it. It looks like since the arrival of Vista-infected machines, the old methods for Windows Refund [google.com] need updating.

The club at least could make some noise and show the new steps to the dance. Many will be buying new computers in the coming weeks and could use the extra 150 USD / EUR

Re:No details, either (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26003637)

The club will make some noise as soon as I prepare a lecture about my windows refund case. Zvi Devir.

Isn't that a Macintosh? (5, Funny)

argent (18001) | more than 5 years ago | (#25980527)

The laptop in the stock photo [ynetnews.com] for the article sure looks like didn't come with Windows in the first place.

Re:Isn't that a Macintosh? (2, Insightful)

slakdrgn (531347) | more than 5 years ago | (#25981111)

What's even more funny is the guy in that picture looks a lot like Wil Wheaton.

Re:Isn't that a Macintosh? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25982187)

You must have really bad eyesight or brain damage their sir.

Re:Isn't that a Macintosh? (1)

cerberusss (660701) | more than 5 years ago | (#25985937)

If you think that guy looks like Wil Wheaton, then I'm looking like Mother Theresa.

Re:Isn't that a Macintosh? (1)

elrous0 (869638) | more than 5 years ago | (#25989073)

Take it as a compliment. Mother Theresa is totally sexy.

Re:Isn't that a Macintosh? (1)

negative3 (836451) | more than 5 years ago | (#25982985)

It looks like one, but it's not one of hte white Intel Macbooks - the ports are slightly different. My macbook has on the left side: power, ethernet, mini-dvi, firewire, usb, usb, mic, headphone, lock. And no fan ports - those are hidden by the screen hinge. It looks like a decent attempt at a knock-off though.

Re:Isn't that a Macintosh? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25983283)

It's more than a "decent attempt at a knockoff"; that's an iBook, which can't even run Windows except via some messy emulation.

Re:Isn't that a Macintosh? (1)

68kmac (471061) | more than 5 years ago | (#25987123)

It looks like one, but it's not one of hte white Intel Macbooks

It's a 12" iBook G4

Re:Isn't that a Macintosh? (1)

ArsenneLupin (766289) | more than 5 years ago | (#25987001)

Cute boy...

Jew goes to court over money (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25980711)

Honestly, who saw that coming?

And parent skimped on glasses (1)

Zsub (1365549) | more than 5 years ago | (#25980803)

Read again, where does it say the person in question is a Jew?

Re:And parent skimped on glasses (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25981129)

Cause his name sounds Jewish enough?

Re:And parent skimped on glasses (2, Interesting)

K. S. Kyosuke (729550) | more than 5 years ago | (#25981909)

My name sounds Jewish enough as well, and in spite of that, it is not enough for me to be a Jew. If his mother was not a Jew and he was not raised as one, which is possible, he is not considered a Jew, at least not from the traditional Judaistic point of view. Of course, there were people with different opinions [holocaustr...roject.org] as to what makes a person a Jew, but fortunately, they lost (not only) the argument. :-)

WTF? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26107541)

How does your japanese sounding name, sound in any way jewish?

Re:blablabla (2, Insightful)

Fuzzzy (967665) | more than 5 years ago | (#25980893)

ALL the anonymous cowards are so dumb.

Re:blablabla (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25981237)

WE ARE SO!!!!!!! Err, no we are not!!!!!!

Re:blablabla (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25982139)

We are not dmub!

Ever Notice? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25980853)

Anyone ever notice that almost every anti-Microsoft (or semi anti-Microsoft) story is posted by CmdrTaco?

Things that make you go hmmm...

Re:Ever Notice? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25981327)

Are you suggesting hes the only editor not getting a cut of the MS advertising money on here??

Or marbe hes the only one with the morals to post anti-MS stories despite getting MS ad money.

Or hes pissed because he doesn't get a cut?

Or.. who cares, its news.. it should be on slashdot.

Re:Ever Notice? (1)

BlackSnake112 (912158) | more than 5 years ago | (#25981945)

So Timothy == CmdrTaco?

Re:Ever Notice? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25987859)

So Timothy == CmdrTaco?

I will take my lumps on that. I should not have written CmdrTaco, I should have written SlashDot.

Are you suggesting hes the only editor not getting a cut of the MS advertising money on here??
Or marbe hes the only one with the morals to post anti-MS stories despite getting MS ad money.
Or hes pissed because he doesn't get a cut?
Or.. who cares, its news.. it should be on slashdot.

What I am suggesting is that almost EVERY anti-Microsoft story comes from SlashDot, while the vast majority of all other stories come from readers. A lot of those readers are anti-Microsoft, would like nothing more than to get a story posted, and are sending these articles in as well. However SlashDot always seems to post them first. That leads me to believe that SlashDot is actively TROLLING the net for stories that have ANY hint of anti-Microsoft to post. It is called BIAS. If you don't think SlashDot is bias then you just have no clue. Either that or your own bias has blinded you.

I am not going to argue the newsworthiness of this particular story. I was referring to all the stories. There are more than a small handful of stories that are NOT newsworthy but because they are anti-Microsoft they get posted. It is the truth and it is called BIAS.

Re:Ever Notice? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26034571)

Dude, if you love microsoft so much, go to digg instead.

Quit whining about a (well-known) bias.

Those of us who come here for discussion on articles relating to microsoft's foibles and regard/disregard for various customer groups (amongst other non-microsoft-related articles) will remain.

You could also turn off the "YRO" (Your Rights Online) section, and your microsoft stories will pretty much vanish from the front page.

(that, in itself is somewhat telling...)

Somebody tag it (1)

Hognoxious (631665) | more than 5 years ago | (#25981823)

Somebody tag it "OY VEY!".

Good on him, and boo to Dell (3, Insightful)

blind biker (1066130) | more than 5 years ago | (#25982033)

...for trying to wiggle out of their contractual agreement. Now, I'm not sure a click-through EULA is in fact a contract, but then that's DELLs to decide. Either it is or it isn't.

Class Action Suit (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25983555)

Any lawyers out there?

$100 * 10,000,000 linux users. Assume 80%~90% just nuke the hard disk and install Linux.

That is a *lot* of cash out there that can be won my Linux users who face almost impossible barriers to refunds for software that they do not use and do not want. compounded by microsoft's anti-trust actions that make it very difficult to purchase computers without Windows.

Some enterprising lawyer could make a VERY good case, get some buck, and probably change the way computers are sold in the U.S.A.

Go Figure (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25985015)

Fucking Jews

This Is Wonderful But . . . (2, Interesting)

LuYu (519260) | more than 5 years ago | (#25985417)

I am of course overjoyed at the fact that there is someone who managed not to be forced to pay for Windows, but I still have to ask this question: Did Dell take the loss or did MS?

Aside from saving money, refusing to grant an undesirable vendor money is another reason to refuse a purchase. If Dell still paid MS, then MS is still insulated from market forces. How can customers choose against MS if MS gets paid even when those customers do not purchase MS software?

I hope the next time this happens, Dell will supply a written document certifying that it has refused payment to MS for the copy in question.

How many (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25985877)

refunds have been issued in the USA?
--
  Belchertown Ma [belchertown-news.com]

What's faster than a speeding bullet? (1)

nog_lorp (896553) | more than 5 years ago | (#25986019)

A Jew with a coupon! /iamajew

Why buy something you don't want? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25986395)

I have never bought a computer with an OS already installed. Most of the places I know offer Windows XP or Vista as an option with an added charge. He could have saved himself a bunch of time by doing five minutes of research.

To the glass factory that makes the windows: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#25993777)

As they say in Hebrew, "Nanny nanny boo boo!"

Not necessarily the first. (1)

darkonc (47285) | more than 5 years ago | (#25994317)

Just the first that didn't accept Dell's NDA.

Note to self: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26013727)

high five a Jew today

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