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Free Resources for Windows Perl Development

kdawson posted more than 5 years ago | from the christmas-present dept.

Perl 117

jamie pointed out an important announcement in the Perl community. Adam Kennedy, known as Alias, developed Strawberry Perl to "make Win32 a truly first class citizen of the Perl platform world." Over the last year, major CPAN modules have used Strawberry Perl to get to releases that work trouble-free on Windows. But the tens of thousands of smaller modules on CPAN are lagging, in many cases because of lack of access to a Windows environment for development and testing. Now Alias has worked with Microsoft's Open Source Software Lab to provide for every CPAN author free access to a centrally-hosted virtual machine environment containing every major version of Windows. "More information (and press releases) will follow, the entire program under which this partnership will be run is so new it's only just been given a name, so some of the organisational details will ironed out as we go. But for now, to all the CPAN authors, all I have to add is... Merry Christmas. P.S. Or your appropriate equivalent religious or non-religious event, if any, occurring during the month of December, etc., etc."

cancel ×

117 comments

win32 a first-class citizen? (-1, Troll)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 5 years ago | (#26016773)

developed Strawberry Perl to "make Win32 a truly first class citizen of the Perl platform world

Just one question. Why? Can you even BUY a computer with a 32-bit cpu any more?

What next - ports for the C64 and Tandy Color Computer?

Re:win32 a first-class citizen? (1)

Watson Ladd (955755) | more than 5 years ago | (#26016829)

Win32 is the windows API. Making perl for .NET will be fun. Thankfully Parrot will rope other people into doing most of it.

Re:win32 a first-class citizen? (0, Redundant)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017127)

I know what Win32 is. I also know, having written my own abstraction layer for it, that it's a real POS. Thankfully, I haven't had to use it in over a decade, and have no plans to in the future, just like I don't see myself switching back to Windows either at work or at home.

KDE 4.1 makes Vista look like an old Buick.

Re:win32 a first-class citizen? (1)

smitty_one_each (243267) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017303)

I'm not sure your car analogy is apropos. You had a chance of wrenching on an old Buick. Also, back in the day, the impact of a frizbee did not trigger $4k in damage. You never get out of a body shop for less than $4k.

Re:win32 a first-class citizen? (1)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017379)

I'm not sure your car analogy is apropos. You had a chance of wrenching on an old Buick. Also, back in the day, the impact of a frizbee did not trigger $4k in damage. You never get out of a body shop for less than $4k.

Good point - the old "Windows is like a car with the hood welded shut" strikes again! Darned :-)

The frisbee cost is another good point. Open up the wrong email, or surf the wrong site, and you'll spend more to fix the damage than the OS cost in the first place - and that's even if you had "protection", since anti-virus software is just an arms race.

Re:win32 a first-class citizen? (1)

FlyingBishop (1293238) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017545)

I recently updated to Ubuntu 8.10, and discovered that the sleek, fuel-efficient KDE programs I love were ripped out and replaced with hummers. Honestly, Kolourpaint takes up 50% of my cpu drawing a line.

And I do use 32 bit, because my single 2.8 Ghz processor has served me well for three and a half years, and I don't see any reason to upgrade it.

And just to be clear, that 2.8Ghz is more than most cores nowadays, so though I may be stuck in the past, I'd still say that for the most basic of drawing applications, 50% of one of 8 cores is still ridiculous. Buick indeed.

Re:win32 a first-class citizen? (1)

stjobe (78285) | more than 5 years ago | (#26019009)

KDE 4.1 makes Vista look like an old Buick

In your eyes. In mine, they both look like the rear end of a dump truck. I choose my UI for how easy it is to work with, not how easy it is to look at.

Re:win32 a first-class citizen? (4, Insightful)

timmarhy (659436) | more than 5 years ago | (#26016845)

i hate the break it to you but win32 still dominates the landscape, the cpu being 64bit is irrelevant. sounds like you've been duped by the marketing.

Re:win32 a first-class citizen? (0, Flamebait)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017167)

Haven't used Win32 in over a decade. Never used MFC because it was total crap - like a lot of people, I ended up having to write my own abstraction classes since OWL wasn't much better.

Windows is dying. It's like GM. Bloated, pointless, only continuing to exist because "it's too big to fail" - in other words, on its' past momentum. Microsoft either has to break completely with the past (and in so doing, break Win32 compatibility), or continue to be the worlds' most popular malware enabler.

Re:win32 a first-class citizen? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26017185)

Spoken like a true geek: short-sighted, and from the ass.

Re:win32 a first-class citizen? (-1, Troll)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017353)

Spoken like a true geek: short-sighted, and from the ass.

Spoken like someone who has drunk so much of the purple kool-ade they can't think of "whatcanpossiblygowrong"? You're the one being short-sighted. Who will be the group that benefits most from a perl Win32 API? Malware authors and their clients. The RBN will be most happy to subscribe to your newsletter.

Aren't there already enough tools to practice p0wnage on Windows users without adding more?

Windows is a second-class (or worse) OS. Get used to it, because it's only going to get worse. Or have you forgotten Microsofts' promise that viruses won't run on Windows, so you should switch from DOS. And then the same promise for Windows 95, since it was supposedly a true 32-bit OS?

Windows can't compete fairly - that was established last century. It's truly second-class.

Re:win32 a first-class citizen? (1)

ggvaidya (747058) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017865)

Windows is dying.

I sincerely hope so. But until it kicks the bucket, there's software on it which needs to be supported, and improved Windows testing and debugging of current CPAN modules will make the lives of those of us who use those modules on Windows a whole lot easier.

Re:win32 a first-class citizen? (1)

binarylarry (1338699) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017163)

Yes, it's impossible to find a 64-bit only CPU for use with Windows.

Fucking impossible.

Re:win32 a first-class citizen? (-1, Troll)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017305)

My point was that Win32 and Windows are not first-class citizens in the computer world. Aside from the desktop, Windows is either late to the party, or trailing badly, or not visible. On the desktop, Windows is also second-class - the Mac has it beat hands down. There's a lot of truth to "Once you go Mac, you never go back" - and part of that is because the Win32 API is a piece of crap, and has been for over a decade. It's been extended since the original add-in that you could download for Win311 to give it 32-bit support, and it shows its' heritage.

The people who will really get a kick out of a perl Win32 API are the malware writers. I say "Go for it!" The more malware out there, the more likely people are to switch to a real operating system, and not some dog-and-pony-show tarted-up with a ton of lipstick.

Re:win32 a first-class citizen? (3, Insightful)

Khuffie (818093) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017427)

I think someone needs to get their head out of their ass and face reality. Outside the desktop, Windows isn't visible? Really? Windows Mobile is everywhere. So is Windows Embdedded. Windows Server is gaining marketshare.

YOU may consider Windows a second-class citizen, but the market sure doesn't. In an above post, you compared Microsoft to GM, and declared that they were dying. Yeah, sure, they're dying exactly like GM, except for the fact that they're making money hand over fist, have over $70 billion in assets, and haven't required a government bailout.

Re:win32 a first-class citizen? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26017611)

They don't need a government bailout?

Every dime they make or steal is through direct government interference in my rights and the willful connivance of the government not to enforce the few laws that might otherwise hinder the money flow.

You want to call 'em successful, you do that. You want to say they're doing it without government support? You're full of shit.

Re:win32 a first-class citizen? (-1, Offtopic)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017657)

A decade ago, GM was also making money had over fist. GM is celebrating its' 100 year anniversary facing bankruptcy in weeks. Microsoft will probably end up being bought by Apple for chump change long before it hits its' 100 years.

Also, the government (and most governments world-wide) having adopted the Word .doc format as a "standard" for so long is a HUGE government subsidy, and one that won't lst much longer. Your tax dollars can be better leveraged by using software that doesn't tie your government to one vendor. Single-sourcing is inherently uncompetitive, and risky.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smartphone [wikipedia.org] Both Symbian (46%), Apple (17.3%) RIM (15.2%) beat out Microsoft (13.6%) in the smartphone OS market. Not exactly high-profile, and with Android coming out, linux looks to be the major threat http://code.google.com/android/what-is-android.html [google.com]

Android relies on Linux version 2.6 for core system services such as security, memory management, process management, network stack, and driver model. The kernel also acts as an abstraction layer between the hardware and the rest of the software stack.

Supercomputing? Windows has 5 entries in the top 500, linux and various linux distros have 452. In terms of actual computing power, it's even more lopsided.

In terms of gaming consoles, the Wii and the DS blow both the xbox and the ps3 out of the water.

Next you'll be claiming the Zune is a threat to the iPod. Microsoft produces second-rate products. The Win32 API is ancient, cruft-laden, and also second-rate.

Re:win32 a first-class citizen? (1)

JamesP (688957) | more than 5 years ago | (#26019221)

Windows Mobile is everywhere.

No

So is Windows Embdedded

No

Most (embedded / server) places that have linux are not advertised as such.

Re:win32 a first-class citizen? (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26019645)

I think someone needs to get their head out of their ass and face reality. Outside the desktop, Windows isn't visible? Really? Windows Mobile is everywhere. ...

Yes, and that someone is ... you! I'm guessing you didn't see the news Friday that Windows Mobile was just passed in market share by ... the iPhone!
http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=iphone+q3+2008+market+share

The problem for fanbois who point to Microsoft's size as a sign of its invincibility is that ... size is not a sign of invincibility.

Re:win32 a first-class citizen? (1)

hullabalucination (886901) | more than 5 years ago | (#26020065)

Windows Mobile is everywhere.

You're joking, right? Are we talking about the same Windows Mobile that got its doors blown off in the mobile market by OS X on the iPhone in a mere two quarters?

http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=1163

* * * * *

"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana." —Groucho Marx

Re:win32 a first-class citizen? (1)

A12m0v (1315511) | more than 5 years ago | (#26020157)

Windows Mobile is not everywhere, Windows Mobile is on a bridge to nowhere!
The iPhone has more worldwide market after a mere 2 years, WinMo had over a decade headstart, since it was called WinCE or whatever, and is still irrelevant.
Blackberry dominates in NA, Symbian dominates globally, and Android is going to bite into WinMo's market share before anything else!

Re:win32 a first-class citizen? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26021265)

haven't required a government bailout

"Required." I like it! Keep talking like that, son, and we might have a place for you in the big leagues!

-- Your obedient servants in government

Re:win32 a first-class citizen? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26021537)

YOU may consider Windows a second-class citizen, but the market sure doesn't.

FUCK the market. The market doesn't know what it wants. It only thinks it knows what it wants because someone has told it what it wants.

Re:win32 a first-class citizen? (1)

daeg (828071) | more than 5 years ago | (#26023321)

How much of the server growth is due to capacity, though? I'd like to see some numbers comparing how many users a Windows Server host for a web application can support versus, say, BSD, for the same application. I looked around a bit but couldn't find any.

AKA Alias? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26016809)

So this guy's alias is alias?
so also said as: adam kennedy, alias: alias.

Re:AKA Alias? (2, Interesting)

adamkennedy (121032) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017375)

If one is forced to use an Alias for online life, might as well make it obvious...

More like lack of interest. (0, Redundant)

Rahga (13479) | more than 5 years ago | (#26016825)

"But the tens of thousands of smaller modules on CPAN are lagging, in many cases because of lack of access to a Windows environment for development and testing."

I was born on a day, but not yesterday. I must admit to not using perl for anything serious in a very long time, but as I recall, many smaller modules in CPAN didn't even work trouble free on an up-to-date linux machine because they were either badly coded or simply didn't run with newer versions of other dependencies. Maybe things have changed, but I doubt access to Windows machines is a real issue for anybody apart from a tiny handful of GNU diehards/blowhards.

Re:More like lack of interest. (1)

shotgunefx (239460) | more than 5 years ago | (#26016903)

Actually, as far as linux, usually everything just works. I'm sure there's a lot of one off modules that never get anything but a first release and sit unloved but almost everything I've needed to install runs without issue and has done so for years. The only module I can think of on Linux that was a PITA was the SDL libraries, due to the different versions and many library dependencies.

As far as Windows, it depends, all the core stuff is fine, and if you can find it in a ppm repository, you're usually fine, other things that rely on c libs and such , well, YMMV.

Re:More like lack of interest. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26017321)

Wrong. And, oh my goodness, this is wrong. Many modules were written with specific requierments with other modules, that have drifted a tremendous amount. If you're using a bleeding edge distribution, many related modules have often drifted so far ahead that they are no longer compatible. And if you use a server class, stable distribution, many core components require update but overwrite modules of your basic Perl distribution. Even then, an old application that has stabilized and refused to upgrade core components (such as using Apache 1.3, which Debian supports alongsiede HTTPD 2) can badly destabilize your system when you try to CPAN install the basic modules.

If you think I'm kidding, try installing the Musicbrainz server. It has basic mod_perl requirements that are specific to Apache 1.x and perl, and are amazingly painful to integrate into any perl newer than perl-5.6.

Re:More like lack of interest. (1)

davester666 (731373) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017709)

Finally, I can make sure my module works on Windows 3.11!

Just last year, I tracked down a machine with Windows 95 and got it working there, but I really wanted to make sure it worked with ALL major Windows operating systems.

Re:More like lack of interest. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26018537)

Actually, believe it or not, MS still distribute Windows 3.11 as part of MSDN, along with MS-DOS 6.22. So obviously I have a working 3.11 install inside a VM - just because.

Re:More like lack of interest. (2, Informative)

Smallpond (221300) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017043)

The CPAN testers [cpan.org] was conceived back in May 1998 by Graham Barr and Chris Nandor as a way to provide multi-platform testing for modules. Today there are 2,653,748 tester reports and more than 400 testers giving valuable feedback for users and authors alike.

CPAN modules are probably better tested cross-platform than libraries for any other language.

Re:More like lack of interest. (4, Informative)

adamkennedy (121032) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017333)

The problem with CPAN Testers is that while it can tell you IF your module is broken, it doesn't give you any way to actually get onto Windows to debug the problem. All you can does is guess the fix and upload a new release, and hope for the best.

CPAN Testers is the canary in the coal mine, which is handy, but doesn't actually help clear out the poison.

Re:More like lack of interest. (3, Interesting)

Antique Geekmeister (740220) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017349)

Having a lot of testers doesn't seem to actually affect the quality of many of the smaller modules. Many of them have absolutely insane dependency chains, requiring both untested, unreliable modules, often from the same author, and completely deprecated modules for the same component, with massive duplication of modules to do the same small task in slightly different ways.

For the core modules, and those exciting modules likely to be included in the next release, I can see the results of testing work. But many of the smaller ones are one-off debris by sloppy programmers that unfortunately show up in the CPAN search engines. No one seems to test them, and they're apparently not tested again after their original publicaton for compatibility with new perl releases.

No One Does (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26017123)

"I must admit to not using perl for anything serious in a very long time"

No one does. Perl is a stinking pile of shit that no one but teenage Slashdot Linux dorks give a shit about.

http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/ [ruby-lang.org]

Re:No One Does (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26017237)

Thank You Retard! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26017385)

Hilarious!

Thank you retard! Let me guess you also post equally idiotic 'devastating' links to pointless spinning cubes that 'prove' Linux is 'ahead' of Windows...

Re:No One Does (1)

Fished (574624) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017241)

Hate to agree with someone who puts it the way you do, but err... well... your right. I got into Ruby for Rails after many years as a die-hard perl user. Now, I use it for everything. I will say that I miss the wide variety of modules available for Perl, which Ruby hasn't caught up with quite yet.

Why is ruby better? For one, it's object orientation isn't an after-thought, and it's actually useful. For another, it makes it easy to produce readable code (in perl, readable code requires hard work.) Just wish we could catch up in the CPAN department.

nice link there (1)

larry bagina (561269) | more than 5 years ago | (#26016909)

Re:nice link there (1)

K. S. Kyosuke (729550) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017005)

Slashdot has been slashdotted? I knew this would happen one day!

This really works quite nice... (1)

perlhacker14 (1056902) | more than 5 years ago | (#26016967)

It includes a pre-configured CPAN-shell and compilation tools for c modules.
Installation is a bit screwy on Vista; it does require some manuevering there, but it works off to bat on xp.
I, for one, am quite happy that there are other options that function well besies ActivePerl; never liked it. No longer is one dependant on the proprietary ppm packaging so much! The value of CPAN is better put to use here.
Though, businesses that rely on perl might want to wait before abandoning activeperl; strawberry is relatively new here...

Re:This really works quite nice... (1)

ggvaidya (747058) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017741)

Though, businesses that rely on perl might want to wait before abandoning activeperl; strawberry is relatively new here...

True, but after a morning of trying to work through ActivePerl PPMs, giving up, and having Strawberry Perl "just work", atleast my company is getting closer and closer to that tipping point ...

Netcraft confirms it (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26017033)

perl is dying http://use.perl.org/~Ovid/journal/38010 [perl.org]

Re:Netcraft confirms it (2, Interesting)

LodCrappo (705968) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017205)

That's not netcraft. Its the TIOBE index, which is notorious for being completely inaccurate. Google for "tiobe flawed" and you'll start to see just how worthless it is. That said, perl does have some serious challenges ahead if it wants to stay as popular or gain popularity.
 

Re:Netcraft confirms it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26017249)

whooooosh

Re:Netcraft confirms it (2, Informative)

lysergic.acid (845423) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017291)

it might help to look at the context of the ranking in order to see things in perspective. coming in 8th out of 50 [tiobe.com] is hardly "dying." and if Perl is dying then Python (7th) isn't far behind, and JavaScript (9th), Ruby (11th), Lisp/Scheme (19th), and Lua [wikipedia.org] (20th) are all definitely dead. not to mention the rest of the ranked languages:
21. ActionScript
22. MATLAB
23. FoxPro/xBase
24. Fortran
25. Ada
26. Transact-SQL
27. Prolog
28. RPG. (OS/400)
29. Erlang
30. NXT-G
31. Awk
32. LabVIEW
33. Haskell
34. ML
35. Objective-C
36. Focus
37. Groovy
38. Smalltalk
39. Euphoria
40. CL. (OS/400)
41. Alice
42. Tcl/Tk
43. Scala
44. Caml
45. Bourne. shell
46. Q
47. Forth
48. Natural
49. APL
50. R

Re:Netcraft confirms it (1)

ggvaidya (747058) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017775)

You left out my personal favourite: Logo is at rank 18, up from 21 last year, making it more popular than Lisp/Scheme, Lua, and Caml.

Re:Netcraft confirms it (1)

chromatic (9471) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017813)

I'll give you one better. Apparently, Google Chrome is written in Delphi. TIOBE confirms it.

Re:Netcraft confirms it (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 5 years ago | (#26018439)

The current position is irrelevant if you want to determine whether something is "dying" or not; what matters is the long-term trend.

Re:Netcraft confirms it (1)

lysergic.acid (845423) | more than 5 years ago | (#26018541)

then i suppose the top 3 languages (2 of which have actually grown in the short-term) are dying since they've all decreased in popularity in the long-term?

Re:Netcraft confirms it (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 5 years ago | (#26018721)

You mean Java, C, and C++? I wouldn't call it dying (yet), but they're certainly on the decline overall - C/C++ is being pushed out of desktop app market, for example, replaced by front-ends in Python (on Linux) or .NET (on Windows). Of course both are going pretty strong in low-level, and will probably remain strong there for a long time to come

Java is just slowly declining overall. Sun's not feeling well, and IBM and Google are too conservative and not much interested in developing it further (look at the list of new features for Java 7 - not impressive!) - they'd rather have what's there been frozen and stable, which isn't a bad idea overall, but will lead to COBOLization in long term, and inevitable replacement by something newer eventually.

bionic rats. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26017039)

Windows is a rat infestation, the ship (our pirate ship -- we don't believe in imaginary property, and the best way to show our disbelief is by plundering it) is being gnawed apart by rats.

But Perl is amazingly useful. It can make your system do ANYTHING, dance like a monkey? It's on CPAN.

The conclusion to my analogy then is that Perl on Windows is like a remote-controlled bionic rat: a step up from the rest of the rats, but still no monkey.

Re:bionic rats. (1)

Smallpond (221300) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017279)

You are correct. It is. [cpan.org]

Linky (4, Informative)

cleatsupkeep (1132585) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017041)

Maybe this link will be a little more useful: http://strawberryperl.com/ [strawberryperl.com]

Perl::Windows (0, Redundant)

symbolset (646467) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017057)

Pearls::Swine

Tag: "letsallkillthisbeast" (1)

fluch (126140) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017121)

Both of them?

Re:Tag: "letsallkillthisbeast" (1)

rrohbeck (944847) | more than 5 years ago | (#26023431)

Microsoft and Windows? Good luck with that.

excellent! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26017197)

Just the right flavor to go with Chocolate Doom!

It seems I'm the first to say it but... (1)

Hercynium (237328) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017199)

Adam, you're the freakin' MAN.

I actually didn't know the breadth of what you were arranging but this is just way beyond what I expected!

I will definitely be taking advantage of this... Next time you're in the Boston area, I want to personally buy you a case of your choice of beer.

(yes, I understand fully that this posting means it's "on the record" :D )

Judgement Day (1)

acidrainx (806006) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017229)

Ah.. so this is how Skynet begins.

WTF? (0, Redundant)

actionbastard (1206160) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017243)

"...lack of access to a Windows environment..."

Hello? Virtualization?

Re:WTF? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26017271)

"...lack of access to a Windows environment..."

Hello? Virtualization?

Hello, obtaining a legal copy of windows?

Re:WTF? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26017309)

"...lack of access to a Windows environment..."

Hello? Virtualization?

Hello? They would have to pay if the wanted to do it legally?

Re:WTF? (3, Insightful)

adamkennedy (121032) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017489)

On top of licensing issues, other accumulated comments included the fact many Unix greybeards have never used Windows before, so the accumulated time to find the right torrent, download it, work out how to install everything etc etc was something they greatly didn't look forward to doing.

It's not that they couldn't, it's just that they are busy people, like everyone else, and the time investment was too big for the relatively small win of closing one or two bugs on Windows.

Shortcutting that process by just letting them log directly into a running instance is considered a significant improvement for that group.

I'm not convinced anything has changed. (0)

GNUChop (1310629) | more than 5 years ago | (#26018433)

... accumulated comments included the fact many Unix greybeards have never used Windows before ... they are busy people, like everyone else, and the time investment was too big for the relatively small win of closing one or two bugs on Windows.

Do you think that people will fix bugs for a platform they have successfully avoided for decades? And not just one but multiple versions of bug fixing too? It takes time and effort to avoid Windows and Windows only hardware and most people end up resenting the exercise. Does anyone really think that Windows will be a "first class citizen" even if all of Perl was perfect on it? I understand M$ wants to have WAMP, but I don't know why anyone will waste their time fixing things for a non free OS that takes so long to set up in the first place. What single advantage does Windows have to offer anyone that would justify development effort?

Warning: Known sockpuppet/troll (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26023099)

User [slashdot.org] maintains 14 accounts [slashdot.org] on Slashdot.

Free Resources for Windows Perl Development (0, Flamebait)

DiegoBravo (324012) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017283)

>> Free Resources for Windows Perl Development

The definitive one: http://python.org/ [python.org]

Re:Free Resources for Windows Perl Development (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26017391)

Fuck you you silly cunt

Re:Free Resources for Windows Perl Development (1)

ggvaidya (747058) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017801)

Hey! Python can run Perl? That's awesome. Do you have a link for that? I'd love to be able to use my favourite language on what is by all accounts a great interpreter.

(If you want to run Python on Perl instead, you can [cpan.org] . Perl: the choice is yours.)

Every major version of Windows? (1)

Drinking Bleach (975757) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017295)

I see in the list Windows XP and Server 2003 (they're almost the same...), Vista and Server 2008 (they are exactly the same!). Where's Windows 2000? there's quite a large chunk of users left on that platform. Hell, even a few users on Win98 or NT4 still.

Re:Every major version of Windows? (4, Informative)

adamkennedy (121032) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017351)

If you'd Read My Fucking Article you'd see that the current set is the MINIMUM initial launch set.

The plan once we are running is to start adding more variations as needed. I'd certainly like to have a 2000 instance.

As for the Windows 95 family, as I understand it support was dropped from the current Perl core for anything older than 2000.

Re:Every major version of Windows? (1)

adamkennedy (121032) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017509)

OK, maybe that was overly cruel...

But yes, I'm aware the launch set only covers well-supported versions, and yes, there's more variations coming later.

Re:Every major version of Windows? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26017661)

Well good day to you too....

Re:Every major version of Windows? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26019369)

Temper temper mon capitain

Damn Dude. (1)

/dev/trash (182850) | more than 5 years ago | (#26021293)

Do they make you hang out with Ballmer for a week just to get access?

What about ActivePerl? (4, Interesting)

Loopy (41728) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017317)

I've used ActiveState's ActivePerl on several windows boxes over the years and have had "trouble-free" experiences with it. Granted, some of the more bleeding-edge modules weren't at the latest revs but the mainstream software I used didn't strictly require those either.

Re:What about ActivePerl? (4, Interesting)

adamkennedy (121032) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017403)

My issues with ActivePerl have been that it is fundamentally different to all the other Perl platforms (you don't get the full CPAN, just binary packages) and that because one company is the central gatekeeper of all the binary packages, there was never a reasonable way for CPAN authors to debug their modules.

I for one wrote 150+ modules, of which a grand total of 7 were available on ActivePerl, due to various bugs in the ActivePerl build farm that went unfixed for years.

To be truly first-class, you should be the same as the other platforms, not similar-but-different.

Re:What about ActivePerl? (1)

ZeekWatson (188017) | more than 5 years ago | (#26018147)

I for one wrote 150+ modules, of which a grand total of 7 were available on ActivePerl

Perhaps the problem is with the way you code your modules and not with the ActivePerl build farm? ActivePerl has like a brazillion modules available for it.

Re:What about ActivePerl? (5, Informative)

chromatic (9471) | more than 5 years ago | (#26018305)

ActivePerl has like a brazillion modules available for it.

Not really. ActiveState made bizarre PPM binary compatibility decisions, which meant that their version of Scalar::Util [cpan.org] didn't include the XS components. As the 5.8.x series continued, more and more modules relied on that XS component, which meant that increasing amounts of the CPAN weren't available as PPMs. I don't know the exact figures, but it wouldn't surprise me if one-third to one-half of the CPAN were unavailable from AS's repositories.

(Did you know Alias is one of the CPAN administrators?)

Re:What about ActivePerl? (1)

jonwil (467024) | more than 5 years ago | (#26019453)

What makes ActiveState Perl different from Perl as seen on Linux et al? Why cant you just run the same Perl code from Linux on ActiveState? And if it sucks so much, why has no-one done a more straight port from the Linux code (or is that what Cygwin Perl is for?)

Re:What about ActivePerl? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26019875)

Perl itself, for the most part, works just fine with Windows. On the other hand, Perl modules have a number of issues with Windows. There are many differences in the *nix and Windows architectures so some things like SIGALRM aren't reliable or just don't exist. e.g. The standard paradigm on *nix is fork while windows wants threads. Another major issue is that many Perl modules include C code in the form of XS, and it's a pain to port to windows from a real POSIX platform.

Most module authors write on some flavor of *nix and aren't about to go buy every version of windows just to try to port their modules. Which is the issue that Alias has provided a solution for. Of course, many authors still won't care about Windows but most will at least try to fix the minor problems now that they have access.

Historically, cygwin has provided more modules because, among other things, it layers POSIX on top of the windows platform, which allows more modules to work. These days, efforts like Strawberry provide more than cygwin.

At least, that's my understanding as a Linux elitist who doesn't give a damn about Windows,

PS: Thanks Alias! This is great news for Perl portability, which I do give a damn about.

Re:What about ActivePerl? (1)

chromatic (9471) | more than 5 years ago | (#26022199)

What makes ActiveState Perl different from Perl as seen on Linux et al?

In core Perl itself, nothing. ActiveState uses the same source code. The problem is ActiveState's PPM repository.

Why cant you just run the same Perl code from Linux on ActiveState?

It's the same source code.

And if it sucks so much, why has no-one done a more straight port from the Linux code (or is that what Cygwin Perl is for?)

ActivePerl and Strawberry Perl are distributions of Perl. They don't change the source code. The difference is that Strawberry Perl includes other tools so that you can configure, build, and install modules from the CPAN rather than hoping that they're part of ActiveState's PPM repository.

Re:What about ActivePerl? (1)

rrohbeck (944847) | more than 5 years ago | (#26022961)

Perl modules may include C code and the module installers assume the availability of a compiler. Since that is not a given under Windows, ActiveState makes binary versions available in their PPM repository, but they support only a subset of modules for a number of reasons and are often behind.
Bundling the C compiler (mingw gcc) with Perl is what Strawberry Perl is all about so you can use the standard build process for CPAN modules.

Re:What about ActivePerl? (1)

adamkennedy (121032) | more than 5 years ago | (#26018509)

> Perhaps the problem is with the way you code your modules

At the lowest point, just after the release of ActivePerl 5.10.0 the were ZERO modules available starting with the letter S...

To their credit, ActiveState did finally recognise the old PPM build farm was a piece of shit, and they've now rewritten it from scratch and junked the old version entirely. The situation is nowhere near as bad as it used to be.

Re:What about ActivePerl? (1)

Billly Gates (198444) | more than 5 years ago | (#26018255)

Hey Adam how mature is strawberry perl compared to activePerl? Can I run it yet on my vista laptop or is it still beta?

Re:What about ActivePerl? (1)

adamkennedy (121032) | more than 5 years ago | (#26018515)

Vista should work fine now.

Only caveat is that there is currently no 64-bit port.

Good idea (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26017325)

Vista is such a memory and CPU hog that you need to "Free Resources (up) for Windows PERL developmeent"

Start by turning off that aero crap...

At long last (0, Troll)

nobodyman (90587) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017405)

People that hate perl and people that hate windows can *finally* find some common ground!

Honestly, even a shop teacher can count the number of users that care about this on one hand.

Re:At long last (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26017581)

Honestly, even a shop teacher can count the number of users that care about this on their one remaining hand.

Sign me up! (3, Interesting)

swm (171547) | more than 5 years ago | (#26017849)

I maintain a few modules on CPAN. Nothing big, I'm the sole author.

In August, I got email from someone complaining that one of these modules doesn't pass its self-tests. After some back and forth, it turns out that it passes on Linux and fails on Windows. They even submitted a patch, but I don't want to integrate it unless I can test it on Windows.

I've got some Windows machines in my house, but I'd have to put together a usable development environment, and it's a hassle, and I've got a day job, and it just hasn't happened in 4 months.

If Alias et. al. can get me access to a Windows environment, this module could get cleaned up a lot sooner.

what could possibly go wrong (1)

jannesha (441851) | more than 5 years ago | (#26018069)

I, for one, welcome our new Perl virus writing overlords.

Re:what could possibly go wrong (1)

TheLink (130905) | more than 5 years ago | (#26018617)

TMTOWTDDOS

YOU FAiL IT (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26018071)

- Netcraft has been lloking for! schemes. Frankly keed to be Kreskin the resources that pro-homosexual working on various sanctions, and *BSD is dying Yet everyday...We Of playing your 486/66 with 8 Another folder. 20 systems. The Gay development model who are intersted states that there of BSD/OS. A

Re:YOU FAiL IT (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26018903)

I've never met Vlad, but he must be proud or annoyed to have TrollTalk dedicated to him.

A decade ago Perl was a 1st class citizen on Win32 (3, Informative)

ZeekWatson (188017) | more than 5 years ago | (#26018137)

Perl has been a first class citizen on Win32 starting with the GSAR port back in late 90s, then Perl for Win32 and now ActivePerl.

In fact ActivePerl was more up to date than unix Perl during the late 5.005 and 5.6 because the pumpkin was primarily a Win32 developer.

If you want to find the second class citizens in the Perl world look at OS2, Aix, Hpux, and other strange unixes. I know you want to make Perl better and are working hard on it, but insulting the people who put together the foundation you're now working on is misguided. They did a damn fine job.

Killing it all with a smile (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26018791)

I know [M$] want to make Perl better and are working hard on it, but insulting the people who put together the foundation [M$ is] now working on is misguided.

Yes, a decade ago Perl was a 1st class citizen on Win32, but you miss the point. M$ is doing this to *kill* all non-M$ languages on the Win32 platform, including perl. Don't be confused just because they're all smiling and friendly-like about it.

Re:A decade ago Perl was a 1st class citizen on Wi (1)

rrohbeck (944847) | more than 5 years ago | (#26023093)

Perl could be a first class citizen on Windows if MS bundled a C compiler and library like any decent OS does.

Re:A decade ago Perl was a 1st class citizen on Wi (1)

ChatHuant (801522) | more than 5 years ago | (#26023515)

Perl could be a first class citizen on Windows if MS bundled a C compiler and library like any decent OS does.

Or, you could go and download [microsoft.com] them, geeze! Why bloat installations with bundled stuff that the vast majority of users won't ever need?

Next... (1)

deanston (1252868) | more than 5 years ago | (#26018631)

...IronPerl

Promote Microsoft and undermine Linux (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26019591)

Whatever other benefits there are, the main beneficiary of porting open source software projects to the Windows platform is Microsoft.

Bear in mind that if there were no Linux, many of the other open source software projects would not have existed.

Microsoft don't even have to embrace and extinguish when the open source projects are doing it for them.

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