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With Olympics Over, China Re-Censors Internet

timothy posted more than 5 years ago | from the escape-from-zì-yóu dept.

Censorship 242

eldavojohn writes "We last left the story of Internet censorship in the People's Republic of China when the IOC had reached a deal with the Chinese government whereby some of the press restrictions were lifted. With the 2008 Olympics now but a memory, China has began censoring foreign news sources again. Maybe the West is making too big of a deal over this, as many Chinese citizens seem to like it that way."

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242 comments

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It took them this long to start again? (4, Funny)

rolfwind (528248) | more than 5 years ago | (#26150627)

Somehow, I find that suspect.

Re:It took them this long to start again? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26150703)

Hey cats! I just picked up the tape recorder I hid in Rob Malda's bedroom last night. Here are excerpts from the conversation it picked up:

[sheets ruffling]

Neal: "mmmmm...you're so warm."

Rob: "[abrupt snort] dear...did you clean yourself today?"

Neal: "Robert, you know I'm still leaking from last night"

Rob: "I know that, I was talking about the other thing."

Neal: "What other thing?"

Rob: "Um...you know...wiping yourself in the back."

Neal: "What?!"

Rob: "I'm sorry, babe, its' just that it's hard for me to be stiff when..."

Neal: "I used the restroom today! Is that abnormal?"

Rob: "Well, couldn't you do a little better than that?"

Neal: "Robert, I hate it when you drink..."

Rob: "What the hell? It was only a six-pack..."

Neal: "A six-pack of barley wine! Don't even tell me that shit's like Coors or Budweiser..."

Rob: "Look dear...when I call you "cinnamon girl" I'm referring to the Neil Young song, not to your smell tonight..."

Neal: "UGH. Why do I fall for dickheads?"

Rob: "Assholes, honey, we're talking about assholes, not dickheads!"

Neal: "That's it! I'm sleeping at my mother's tonight! You and your real mistress Kathleen can go fuck yourselves!"

[grunts followed by glass breaking, then a door slam]

Rob: "At last! all alone with my one true love..."

[keyboard clicking sounds interspersed with heavy breathing, then a long sigh and the ruffling of bedsheets]

See that, GNAA? Now THAT's a troll.

Re:It took them this long to start again? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26151001)

WTF is GNAA?

I'm afraid to JFGI...

Off topic: What idiot modded this up? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26151181)

Don't feed the trolls (which I acknowledge that, in a break from form, I am indirectly doing here) and for god's sake, sure as hell don't mod them up.

You know, this $#@! is getting old. I come to Slashdot because it is, or maybe was, one of the best -- in fact, one of the only places -- to find fairly intelligent discourse on the net. But increasingly I have to wade through more and more stuff like this. It's getting to the point where I don't immediately go to a story until the trolls and the "frists" have had time to be modded down below my threshold. Is it maybe time to reexamine the posting policy? Because it seems to me that this garbage is getting worse.

Re:Off topic: What idiot modded this up? (3, Funny)

walnutmon (988223) | more than 5 years ago | (#26152005)

you must be new here.

Re:It took them this long to start again? (1)

LingNoi (1066278) | more than 5 years ago | (#26152405)

In your face everyone who said the China Olympics would solve everything.

As I predicted things are back to normal.

...as many Chinese citizens seem to like it that. (4, Insightful)

MSTCrow5429 (642744) | more than 5 years ago | (#26150643)

Happiness in slavery.

Re:...as many Chinese citizens seem to like it tha (4, Insightful)

nedburns (1238162) | more than 5 years ago | (#26150765)

I think it can compare to when you first wake up or come out of a dark area. At first all of the light hurts your eyes and your initial reaction is to shield yourself or go back to the darkness.

It has to be a slow transition to open information flow or it will be overwhelming.

Re:...as many Chinese citizens seem to like it tha (0, Troll)

nobodylocalhost (1343981) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151705)

After RTFA, I think the Chinese people are voicing legitimate concerns, it is very typical of /. to skew the study. The great firewall of China is like our government's "Do not call" registry in here, and there're no exception cases. Instead of requiring each and every operator to filter unsavory things, phishing, spam, and defamation, it is done by the government. The government on the other hand also added a big list of speech it considers illegal, but it seems the participants of the study wasn't really focused on those. The Chinese people wants the government to be the guardian of morals and civility as well as being a reliable source of information on the net. That's what that 85% means. It has little to do with censors that quiets down political speech.

Re:...as many Chinese citizens seem to like it tha (3, Insightful)

MSTCrow5429 (642744) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151861)

This is backwards reasoning. The Do-Not-Call Registry prevents telemarketers (except for this evil robocaller that keeps offering me a warranty on my car) from contacting me. The Firewall prevents users from making voluntary contact with the outside world. Phishing, SPAM, and "defamation" (free speech, scary) are most certainly not the primary targets of the Firewall. Information critical or destabilizing to the ruling regime is.

Also, there is no Chinese "people." There are Chinese individuals, and they are most definitely not the government. They are its victims. You might want to look into organ harvesting to see what's going on over there.

Re:...as many Chinese citizens seem to like it tha (5, Funny)

genner (694963) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151829)

I think it can compare to when you first wake up or come out of a dark area. At first all of the light hurts your eyes and your initial reaction is to shield yourself or go back to the darkness.

So it like that bright shiney thing in the sky. I saw it once. I hate that thing.

Re:...as many Chinese citizens seem to like it tha (0, Redundant)

dougisfunny (1200171) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151873)

The bright face it hurtses us.

Re:...as many Chinese citizens seem to like it tha (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26150825)

Apparently, they're glad to be chained to that wall.

Re:...as many Chinese citizens seem to like it tha (4, Insightful)

d3ac0n (715594) | more than 5 years ago | (#26150911)

More like:

Toe the "Party Line" or find yourself "Dissapeared" in short order.

Re:...as many Chinese citizens seem to like it tha (4, Insightful)

Openstandards.net (614258) | more than 5 years ago | (#26152413)

If you read the report that says that 85% of those surveyed think the government should control the internet, it says, "This survey was funded by the New York-based Markle Foundation and directed by an internationally respected research team at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences. As required of all public-opinion polling in China, either the survey or the surveyors must be approved by the government, and some topics that Westerners might have liked to see addressed directly, such as censorship, were not." How is any public survey useful if the respondents to the survey had to be filtered by the government?!?

Re:...as many Chinese citizens seem to like it tha (1, Flamebait)

OeLeWaPpErKe (412765) | more than 5 years ago | (#26150971)

Heh, merely a refusal to die for the freedom that created "the west".

And given how the media portrays the us, which is almost equal to "the west", who can possibly blame them ? You are americans, according to time magazine, you are oppressors, oil thieves, baby killers, prison rapists, invaders, torturers (of innocent terrorists) and worse. And no, they do not mean us soldiers or any president, they mean americans.

So why would anyone want to die to become the same thing ?

It's all a lie, obviously. Because otherwise they'd have to blame, oh, say muslims, for what ... muslims ... did. But everybody knows perfectly well it's a lie. Of course it just so happens that this islam thing really does encourage the rape of children, after all a certain massacrer did so. But no, it's americans, the people who read this, who are monsters, who rape innocent iraqi girls in us prisons.

So nobody wants to die for freedom. And that's what it takes ... that's what it took even in America ... that's what it takes in China. Go talk to a Chinese kid, there are plenty in any college or university, and you'll see the truth in this.

Re:...as many Chinese citizens seem to like it tha (2, Insightful)

Steemers (1031312) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151433)

You seem to complain about media laying blame for whatever bad thing at the feet of Americans, but immediately you do the same thing with Muslims. If you think that 'the other side' is doing something wrong, then I hope you see that you are making the same mistake as they are: making a complex situation easy for yourself by blaming the people you do not associate with for anything that you perceive is wrong with that situation.

Re:...as many Chinese citizens seem to like it tha (0, Flamebait)

OeLeWaPpErKe (412765) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151747)

I do not blame muslims for everything. I merely state facts.

Does islam encourage the rape of children ? Well here's the description of what the paedophile prophet did to a 9 year old he had bought :

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/006.sbt.html#001.006.298 [usc.edu]

You know that islam actually has content. It's not just a name. Being a muslim means considering this a virtue. This act is as influential on muslims as Jesus' not throwing stones was on christians. Of course the paedophile prophet has his opinion on the matter.

Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) came to the Jews and said: What do you find in Torah for one who commits adultery? They said: We darken their faces and make them ride on the donkey with their faces turned to the opposite direction (and their backs touching each other), and then they are taken round (the city). He said: Bring Torah if you are truthful. They brought it and recited it until when they came to the verse pertaining to stoning, the person who was reading placed his hand on the verse pertaining to stoning, and read (only that which was) between his hands and what was subsequent to that. Abdullah b. Salim who was at that time with the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Command him (the reciter) to lift his hand. He lifted it and there was, underneath that, the verse pertaining to stoning. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) pronounced judgment about both of them and they were stoned. Abdullah b. 'Umar said: I was one of those who stoned them, and I saw him (the Jew) protecting her (the Jewess) with his body.

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/017.smt.html#017.4211 [usc.edu]

But don't take that from me, the one about paedophilia in islam, after all Carter's best friend, ayatollah khomeini, put it so much better :

http://www.shariati.com/messages/1608.html [shariati.com]

He is, after "Hitler's mufti" (google it) of course, the most influential 20th century imam.

Please explain how any of this lays "blame for everything" at the feet of muslims. I merely state a few facts of their moral system, nothing more.

That you are afraid of the truth is your problem, not mine. Facts are facts. These facts don't change (that was, after all, the purpose of writing them down). That they're "inconvenient truths" and quickly end any discussion about whether muslims should be allowed to carry out "religious duties", even among muslims themselves*, does not change them.

* many muslims, obviously, want out. But that carries the death penalty in the paedophilic religion.

Re:...as many Chinese citizens seem to like it tha (2, Insightful)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | more than 5 years ago | (#26152025)

I do not blame muslims for everything. I merely state facts.

Extremists like you are exactly the same as muslim extremists.
You look for crazy, far-out interpretations of islam in order to justify hating them.
They look for the exact same crazy far-out interpretations in order to justify hating you.

Meanwhile, the vast majority of muslims don't give a damn about the batshit crazy stuff either of you come up with because (a) there is always more to the story than you guys are willing to present and (b) its obvious you guys are just grasping at straws to rationalize your own illogical beliefs.

Re:...as many Chinese citizens seem to like it tha (1)

OeLeWaPpErKe (412765) | more than 5 years ago | (#26152179)

Extremists like you are exactly the same as muslim extremists.

Comments on slashdot are "exactly" the same as continuous massacres. Do you seriously believe this ? I could say your comment insults me, therefore justifying me massacring your entire family. After all, "it's exactly the same".

Your comment insults me, for calling attention to the plain ruthless facts. I even point to primary sources. And you'd rather deny primary sources, because that makes the world so much more comfortable. And then you call me extremist, setting me on equal moral footing as a paedophilic massacrer for ... making a comment ? Are you insane ?

It's funny how you never actually challenge the facts. They just have to be different (or what ? you're going to cry ?). Of course you "just don't care". Making the point that assing about people unwilling to fight for their freedom that much stronger. People like you complaining about freedom in China is beyond ridiculous. If you were Chinese, you'd refuse to believe you don't have freedom. If you lived in saudi arabia you'd justify stonings, claim they make women more free. Because to do otherwise, would be "extremist".

You won't even believe that fighting for freedom is necessary. That's "extremist" nonsense. And most people "just don't care".

That last part might be true. But for all our sakes, I hope that it's not.

The truth is simple : you're a coward. Denying reality so you can "just not care".

Re:...as many Chinese citizens seem to like it tha (1)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | more than 5 years ago | (#26152409)

Comments on slashdot are "exactly" the same as continuous massacres. Do you seriously believe this ? I could say your comment insults me, therefore justifying me massacring your entire family. After all, "it's exactly the same".

It is interesting that you equate extremism with massacres. Do you think all extremists desire the massacre of your family? Seems like you've given us all a good glimpse of just how fucked in the head you are.

Your comment insults me, for calling attention to the plain ruthless facts. I even point to primary sources.

Do you remember me? I remember you -- you are the OlAyOlAyPrICK. I've posted some fucking ruthless contradictions of your 'facts' in the past. Contradictions from primary sources. You bore me by never learning. Don't expect anyone to play your game once you've shown that you are just a broken record.

Re:...as many Chinese citizens seem to like it tha (2, Interesting)

he-sk (103163) | more than 5 years ago | (#26152279)

You don't state facts, you're cherry-picking them. The claim that Mohammed had sex with Aisha at age 9 is disputed. Others have put her at 14 to 15. While this seems weird today, applying 21st-century standards to the 7th century is disingenuous at best.

You also conveniently ignore what Aisha did after Mohammed's death to advance the power of women in Beduin society at that time and that she is revered as a role model by millions of women around the world today. They probably all hate themselves in your view, right?

Not to mention that if you go by the evil things done by men in the name of religion, all religions are equally guilty. Fortunately, humans are good at compartmentalizing, religious people probably more so.

Your zealous focus on Islam betrays your hate.

Re:...as many Chinese citizens seem to like it tha (0, Flamebait)

bendodge (998616) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151801)

Keep in mind that Islam has an actual printed ideology that tells it to trash other civilizations.

Re:...as many Chinese citizens seem to like it tha (-1, Troll)

Mayham66 (1113211) | more than 5 years ago | (#26152155)

The bible also tells people to kill non Christians, but the majority of Christians don't follow that tenant.

Re:...as many Chinese citizens seem to like it tha (4, Insightful)

Hatta (162192) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151203)

It's not just Chinese. US citizens seem to enjoy having their rights violated as well. They reelected Bush, most of those responsible for the PATRIOT act are still in office, etc. etc. As long as the government provides bread and circuses, nobody really cares about rights. That's the same for the East and West.

Most of those responsible for the PATRIOT act... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26151849)

Hell, we just voted one of them into the white house.

Re:Most of those responsible for the PATRIOT act.. (1)

Hatta (162192) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151979)

The PATRIOT act was passed in 2001 by Congress. Obama was not in the Senate until 2004. If you meant Joe Biden, it would be more accurate to say that "we just voted one of them into Observatory Circle".

Re:...as many Chinese citizens seem to like it tha (2, Insightful)

jellomizer (103300) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151947)

Whine Whine Whine...
If you were in other countries you could get imprisoned or killed from saying that. While I do appreciate people keeping an eye on our rights to make sure they don't slip away quietly. However when you are a in a country that doesn't guarantee (or even respects) freedom of speech things like Open Source as free speech, or pornography etc... all seem like silly ideas. They just want to say Hey I dislike this government without getting killed.

Re:...as many Chinese citizens seem to like it tha (2, Insightful)

junner518 (1235322) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151745)

FREEDOM IS SLAVERY [wikipedia.org]

Re:...as many Chinese citizens seem to like it tha (1)

iron spartan (1192553) | more than 5 years ago | (#26152287)

I'm sure that the re-education camps for those that disagree with the Chinese government too much have nothing to do with average person saying the government should control the internet too.

Re:...as many Chinese citizens seem to like it tha (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26152457)

don't open your eyes you won't like what you see
the blind have been blessed with security

Hoo-lay! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26150675)


We rike govahmen to sink foe us. Preez do not shoot me in hed.

You just knew this would happen (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26150687)

An hour later, and they're hungry for censorship again.

"many Chinese citizens seem to like it that way" (5, Insightful)

skgrey (1412883) | more than 5 years ago | (#26150693)

They don't like it this way, they just know better at this point. It's like hitting a dog with a stick anytime he goes to get a snack from you, eventually he won't go get the snack even if you aren't carrying a stick. The dog learns not to like snacks, because who knows if you are hiding a stick somewhere. It's just safer not to like snacks. The chinese people are tired of being hit with sticks and are afraid. It's fear, plain and simple.

Re:"many Chinese citizens seem to like it that way (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26151159)

Yeppp... slaves like to be slave, hostages like their kidnappers, hookers are in love with their pimps. Please...

Re:"many Chinese citizens seem to like it that way (4, Interesting)

Sinbios (852437) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151537)

Care to justify your assertion that they don't like it this way? Your own beliefs regarding free speech, etc., are not valid justification for what other people may believe.

As hard as it may be to believe for jaded Americans, the majority of the Chinese actually approve of and trust their government. I say this because it seems in America, people whine and bitch about being forced to choose the lesser of two evils, whereas in China people generally tend to be content with whoever Congress deems suitable to elect.

Re:"many Chinese citizens seem to like it that way (2, Insightful)

Korveck (1145695) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151545)

You are missing one bit: the dog is convinced that the stick is good for it.

Re:"many Chinese citizens seem to like it that way (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26152293)

I suppose police likely have a little leeway with regards to how they charge people also. So if you're a cop and you bust a 15 yr old kid with a couple grams of weed broken up for distribution you could simply charge him with possession. Two years later when you bust him with the chiva you can pop him in the head.

If I lived in an overpopulated area where both education and law enforcement were difficult to apply because of the ratio of government to civilians, I would probably not mind this so much. Yes there are probably kids in china that get wrapped up in drugs and get popped without the same opportunity to learn from their mistakes that American children have, but if the child is uneducated (as often happens in America also) there is very little hope for reform and the Chinese just don't seem to have the resources to deal with that.

Hell, the US has an extreme problem reforming uneducated drug users, it's damn near impossible. Our answer during the eighties was the prison industry and 3 strikes laws.

China has ~4 times our population they killed 470 last year.

The US killed 43.

they killed about ten times more people than we did, but at the same time they have a 10% lower average literacy. Yes I know you can't just kill people because they are dumb, but dumb people do dumb shit and get popped for doing dumb shit more than smart people do.

Another way to look at this is to use an analogy.

Say you're a bouncer on thursday night and a fight breaks out, it's two guys. You restrain them as peacefully as possible right? Escort them out the door.

Friday night you've got some gangbangin' douche bags in there and suddenly you're looking at a fight with ten guys that are likely armed. Will you use the same methods on friday you used on thursday? Do you even care if it costs you your job? What if the next morning paper reads "Excessive Force! three patrons with broken bones sue The Analogous Bar and Grill". Do you really fucking care? If you were a bartender at that bar how would you feel about reading the headline?

Human Rights (5, Interesting)

evanbd (210358) | more than 5 years ago | (#26150699)

Maybe the West is making too big of a deal over this, as many Chinese citizens seem to like it that way.

Many US citizens liked slavery, once. And not letting women vote. The fact that only a minority is being oppressed doesn't make it not oppression, and it doesn't make it right.

I'm sorry if it makes you feel awkward to take a stand on basic human rights, but when it comes to issues of rights and ethics, not all viewpoints are equally valid.

Then again, I rather suspect you knew all that. I suppose I've been trolled.

Re:Human Rights (2, Insightful)

genner (694963) | more than 5 years ago | (#26150763)

The fact that only a minority is being oppressed doesn't make it not oppression, and it doesn't make it right..

Except it's not a minority being opresses it's the whole country.

Re:Human Rights (1)

brian0918 (638904) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151111)

but when it comes to issues of rights and ethics, not all viewpoints are equally valid.

What?!? You're saying that we should not always aim for the "common ground", the "bipartisan" route - that sometimes it's actually right to stick to your principles??? What an un-American thing to say!

[/sarcasm]

Re:Human Rights (1)

blueskies (525815) | more than 5 years ago | (#26152077)

Like spying on americans and torturing prisoners, etc, etc?

Re:Human Rights (1)

tygt (792974) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151153)

ethics, not all viewpoints are equally valid.

Not that I disagree, but do you think that ethics are absolute?

Re:Human Rights (2, Insightful)

evanbd (210358) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151569)

No, but I don't think they're entirely relative, either. For example, I think slander and libel laws are reasonable limits on speech. I could see different communities reaching different, legitimate conclusions about what precisely those laws should cover. I believe that there are many valid viewpoints, but also many less valid or completely invalid ones.

Re:Human Rights (4, Insightful)

sunderland56 (621843) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151207)

Many US citizens liked slavery, once. And not letting women vote. The fact that only a minority is being oppressed doesn't make it not oppression, and it doesn't make it right.

Don't give all of your examples in the past tense.... Many US citizens still support oppressing the rights of gay people. Many US citizens support the unconstitutional searches, seizures, and wiretaps that have gone on since 9/11. A huge number of US citizens supported invading a foreign country and overthowing their government.

A majority of Americans support the Children's Internet Protection Act [wikipedia.org] - and so a majority of Americans also support censorship of the Internet, just like the Chinese do.

Re:Human Rights (4, Insightful)

elrous0 (869638) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151501)

Look we already sent them a very tersely worded letter saying that, if they didn't improve their human rights record, we would probably still come to the games anyway.

What more do you want from us?

Re:Human Rights (1)

homer_s (799572) | more than 5 years ago | (#26152079)

but when it comes to issues of rights and ethics, not all viewpoints are equally valid.

You are correct. But, which ones are valid and which ones not? There are multiple viewpoints about *that* and they are all valid.

An interesting attitude (5, Funny)

techno-vampire (666512) | more than 5 years ago | (#26150727)

In America, people complain when the government starts censoring the news. In Soviet China, people complain when it stops.

Re:An interesting attitude (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26151091)

No, not funny. Insightful!
That's a perfect succinct summary of the situation.
The china censorship things has been done to death around here. Every time it comes up the same old horse gets dug up and beaten all over, but that's it in a nutshell.

They aren't oppressed, they simply don't want to hear the truth, and indeed complain loudly when it presents itself (See BBC comments by Chinese citizens after the uncensored this year.)

Re:An interesting attitude (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26151355)

Is the translation to Soviet China a new format where you make the verb the opposite?

Let's see if it works.

In America you catch cold.
In Soviet Russia cold catches you!
In Soviet China you run away from cold.

In America you can always find party.
In Soviet Russia party can always find you!
In Soviet China you can always hide from party.

Not sure it works so great, but that shouldn't keep Slashdotters from keeping trying.

Re:An interesting attitude (1)

MMC Monster (602931) | more than 5 years ago | (#26152497)

Not sure it works so great, but that shouldn't keep Slashdotters from keeping trying.

It would in Soviet China.

IOC Must Learn (3, Insightful)

critical_point (1430417) | more than 5 years ago | (#26150753)

The IOC must learn that there is no long term positive effect of allowing a totalitarian government to host the olympics in exchange for agreements that are slowly implemented and quickly removed, just as the western countries have learned that when the IOC makes such a mistake it is wrong to respond by boycotting the games.

Re:IOC Must Learn (1)

zrelativity (963547) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151613)

And we are living in The Garden of Eden, where the streams flow from the fountain of freedom and openness, and trees are covered in goodness and apple pies. IOC is a comercial venture, it offers the games to whom it is politically convenient and will generate huge revenues.

Re:IOC Must Learn (1)

swb (14022) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151725)

The IOC is an organization committed to athletics in the US, Europe and a handful of Asian countries. Elsewhere, membership in the IOC is a perk that the junta/dictator hands out to someone's brother-in-law to take junkets and collect hard currency kickbacks from potential host countries. You expect them to bite the hand that feeds them?

Expecting the IOC as an organization to care about political issues is a waste of time, especially considering the grandiose gold-plated Disneyland that's expected to be built and barely affordable even to the predominantly wealthy host countries. They're just happy someone will host and pay for it.

Maintenance (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26150787)

Who want to bet that the chinese department managing the "wall" used the time to refurbish & update their equipment

Why wouldn't they? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26150789)

As far as most Chinese are concerned their government is great. For more than a decade the average Chinese citizen has seen there lot only improve. Naturally the government there is taking full advantage of this by giving themselves all the credit. Thus to many in China it seems that the government is doing a great job, and who are they to argue with success?

It won't last though. There's a generation of children being born who will take economic prosperity for granted. It's the nature of humanity, and by that same token they'll want more than just that. With economic power in their hands they'll want political power, and that's when the government will be in trouble.

Re:Why wouldn't they? (4, Interesting)

wumingzi (67100) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151117)

It won't last though. There's a generation of children being born who will take economic prosperity for granted. It's the nature of humanity, and by that same token they'll want more than just that. With economic power in their hands they'll want political power, and that's when the government will be in trouble.

Maybe, maybe not.

Taiwan went from single-party (and single-family) rule to a full-fledged democracy in the course of about 15 years. The old farts who had been running (and robbing) the country were quietly retired and a generation which was willing to allow more political pluralism were seated in their place. This happened with a lot of protests, legislative fistfights, and more than a few cracked heads on the street, but it did not involve putting the heads of the Old Guard up on a post in the process.

On the other side, Singapore has become wildly prosperous, with no sign of democracy or pluralism anywhere in sight. The People's Action Party (read: Senior Minister Harry Lee and his son Lee Hsien Loong) still run everything. It's a weird place. It's clean, it's modern. People go in, people go out. If living in the Lees's Disneyland [wired.com] pisses you off, you're free to go to Australia, or the US, or wherever you like. Everyone knows the rules, and nobody rocks the boat.

Re:Why wouldn't they? (1)

MichaelSmith (789609) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151331)

Everyone knows the rules, and nobody rocks the boat.

But it is also boring and lame. I spent a week working there this year and by the last day I was seeing the gaps all over the place. I think if I had to live in the region I would spend a lot of time in Malaysia which, despite its flaws, is more of a "real" country to me.

Singapore is a big shopping centre.

Re:Why wouldn't they? (1)

wumingzi (67100) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151623)

But it is also boring and lame.

I agree that it's boring and lame. If Singapore is the logical conclusion to Chinese affluence, we can probably be assured of Yet Another American Century.

I merely was stating that the argument that prosperity -> democracy does not always happen, and that democracy -> a sharp and unpleasant end for the old guard also does always happen.

Re:Why wouldn't they? (1)

wumingzi (67100) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151703)

old guard also does always happen.

s/does/does not/

Speaking of lame...

Re:Why wouldn't they? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26152491)

Singapore is a dictatorship under the cloak of pseudo democracy.

What *does* the survey imply? (2, Interesting)

tomknight (190939) | more than 5 years ago | (#26150813)

The government want to censor what it deems "illegal content" (such as references to Taiwan as a country).

What do the people seem to want (according to the quoted survey)? A more reliable source of information, and who should ensure the internet is "more reliable" other than the state?
"Since the only legitimate source of authority in many aspects of Chinese life is the state, when Chinese citizens are of the opinion that some aspects of the internet should be controlled, it is natural for them to assume that the state should take the lead in doing the controlling."

The censorship we're seeing is (IMO) wrong. The survey seems to be being misrepresented in this context. Or rather, the people's wishes are not being reflected in the way the censorship is being condected...

Re:What *does* the survey imply? (1)

tomknight (190939) | more than 5 years ago | (#26150863)

(Sorry, meant to keep editing, pressed submit instead)

What I was trying (and failing) to say was that the survey appeared to show that "the people" do indeed seem to want some control of the internet, to make it more usable and reliable, and that the state would be the only body able to provide it. This isn't the spirit of the Chinese government's censorship, and the survey can't be used to support the its current actions.

people who prefer censorship (5, Insightful)

james_shoemaker (12459) | more than 5 years ago | (#26150857)

I have heard people complain about things like spam and porn on the internet and say "Why doesn't the government do something about it". If you frame the question properly in the US I bet you would get a surprising amount of support for government censorship.

Re:people who prefer censorship (4, Insightful)

Shakrai (717556) | more than 5 years ago | (#26150959)

If you frame the question properly in the US I bet you would get a surprising amount of support for government censorship.

Yeah, but the nice thing about our system is that a surprising amount of support isn't sufficient to deny rights outlined in the Constitution. In theory anyway.

Re:people who prefer censorship (0, Flamebait)

genner (694963) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151141)

Yeah, but the nice thing about our system is that a surprising amount of support isn't sufficient to deny rights outlined in the Constitution.......

Buahahahaha....thanks I needed that.

Re:people who prefer censorship (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26151261)

Prohibition got passed. Don't misunderestimate the power of mass delusions. With a 2/3 majority, it's possible to completely butcher our form of government.

If George W. Bush had asked for broad eavesdropping powers with no oversight or certain provisions of the USA PATRIOT Act to be written into the Constitution shortly after 9/11, I suspect he'd have gotten it with little opposition.

Re:people who prefer censorship (1)

mdmkolbe (944892) | more than 5 years ago | (#26152071)

With a large enough majority (or the right minority) it's possible to butcher any form of government (except maybe robotic overloads and manifest god-kings that actively use their god powers).

Too Much News? (1)

RobBebop (947356) | more than 5 years ago | (#26150875)

Not to sound like the Chinese who "like it that way", but I don't think a complete censor of Chinese news broadcasts to America would effect me in the least. I suspect the same major stories (Free Tibet, the major Earthquake, and the Olympics) would have aggregated into the American and British news sites that I read... and that's all that I really need (or want).

However... I sincerely believe that long-term diplomatic relations are needed with China to prevent any potential future pissing contests like what America had with Russia during the Cold War. So long as these tensions are kept in check, I'm happy to basically shrug off the Chinese news equivalents of what I see on American news everyday (i.e. weather reports and mostly insignificant filler).

I wish (0, Offtopic)

lymond01 (314120) | more than 5 years ago | (#26150961)

I sort of wish I could at least find a news source or three that doesn't try to sell me the news by adding all sorts of ridiculous sensationalism. I just want facts, researched, well-written, reviewed, facts.

Perhaps a socialized news service that doesn't get paid by the paper or the advertising hit? NPR doesn't count because it also has its bias (left).

Re:I wish (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26150981)

BBC News.
Paid for and accountable to the UK taxpayer

Re:I wish (1)

EdwinBoyd (810701) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151273)

CBC

They were censoring during the Olympics (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26150963)

I was there during the Olympics and had internet access through a residential hookup. There was a lot of censoring going on: for example, URLs containing "blog" were generally not accessible. It was clearly not related to what was on the blog, but a blanket thing.

Re:They were censoring during the Olympics (3, Insightful)

supernova_hq (1014429) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151749)

Yeah come to think of it, how can the "re-censor" the Internet, when they never really "un-censored" it in the first place?

so, this is how democracy dies (1)

Gizzmonic (412910) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151029)

Not with scorpions, but to thunderous applause...

Re:so, this is how democracy dies (1)

Sinbios (852437) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151661)

Way to conveniently overlook the fact that China, in its current incarnation, never had democracy, and is doing just fine without it.

It irks me that democracy has become such a buzzword, placed on a pedestal as some sort of basic human allowance. But it's really not the best form of government, and some would argue that it's not even a good one. Most countries that claim to be democratic don't even directly implement it.

Re:so, this is how democracy dies (1)

Gizzmonic (412910) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151719)

Obviously you missed the Star Wars reference.

Turn in your geek card and get COVERED WITH SCORPIONS [ytmnd.com] , you fucking fascist!

Re:so, this is how democracy dies (1)

discord5 (798235) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151965)

ytmnd.com

I should've known that nothing good would come from clicking that link.

What are you likely to say? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26151035)

If you have a government that is known to punish people for speaking out against it, and said government says it wants censorship, what are you more likely to say, "I hate censorship" or "I love censorship"?

Sheeple (0, Troll)

scorp1us (235526) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151049)

I struggle to understand the counter perspective, but I think it has something to do with survival. You can choose the path of easiest survival - the least effort, or you can choose the path that might be harder for you. Given the conditions in rural China, it seems that any internet access at all is a luxury.

We have our own problems here in the states though. We constantly don't abide by our Constitution, preferring to look the other way for an easier time. Like Obama citizenship was never tested. Also 3 senators are being appointed to the senate without meeting minimum age requirements. We tax rather than cut back. Our problem is not with the control of information, but rather what we choose to listen to.

I might actually like not having more than one view. It'll avoid the annoying cognitive dissonance. It'll keep me ignorantly and blissfully happy, not knowing what we're doing is wrong. Its easier to close our mind than pursue the truth.

Re:Sheeple (1)

AkaKaryuu (1062882) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151289)

Our problem is not with the control of information, but rather what we choose to listen to.

But when the important news of the day is Gay Marrage, weather or not the 10 commandments should be in a pubic building or a car chase viewed by helicopter... and all the major news outlets are covering it. How is the information not being controlled, or maybe just chosen poorly? When that trivial nonsense is all that is presented to the public, you have no choice to listen and be caught up in the bullshit.

Scared (2, Insightful)

yusing (216625) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151057)

"as many Chinese citizens seem to like it that way."

Particularly those who are concerned that the masses will learn how miserable and fettered their lives are.

Well DUH! (1)

Neanderthal Ninny (1153369) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151069)

Bait and switch.
Like any idiot marketing or salesperson, they give you a good line to get you in on their crap and then switch it afterwards. Nothing new.

Are we becoming bullies? (1)

bogaboga (793279) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151083)

So what if China sensors the internet? So does Saudi Arabia, our ally and nothing is said...and they do not allow women to drive..and women must always seek permission [from men] to go out.

This reminds me of Iran.

We (the USA), supported a dictator in Iran but when the people rose up and forced him out, installing their own dictator we did not like, we branded them evil.

Ca anyone tell me that the USA does not censor the internet in anyway? That is...one can get anything on the internet from anywhere in the USA?

I doubt it. Now do not tell me it's not government policy because the end result is the same.

Re:Are we becoming bullies? (2, Insightful)

El Yanqui (1111145) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151199)

You kind of went off on a tangent there. Actually, the entire post was a tangent. As far as anyone in the USA accessing anything on the internet: What is the government censoring? Please be specific here as I'm no longer in the USA and am curious what I can get here in Europe that you can't. I know of many blacklisted sites/subjects but that has more to do with internet providers than the government deciding that a certain word is verboten to search for.

Please enlighten me as to what specifically you in America can not access or search for because of government censorship.

Re:Are we becoming bullies? (1)

bogaboga (793279) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151415)

As far as anyone in the USA accessing anything on the internet: What is the government censoring?

It depends on where in government you happen to be. At the department of State we have Content-control software. Which strictly speaking is censorship in action by government.

Re:Are we becoming bullies? (1)

cryfreedomlove (929828) | more than 5 years ago | (#26152085)

Are you saying the department of State is censoring the internet access of all Americans?

Re:Are we becoming bullies? (1)

jcnnghm (538570) | more than 5 years ago | (#26152401)

Know, he's saying that he works at the Department of State, and they filter his internet access at work. GP is apparently not particularly clueful.

Re:Are we becoming bullies? (1)

cryfreedomlove (929828) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151229)

Interesting argument. Being a hypocrite does indeed weaken the moral basis of the argument against censorship. However, your post reads like an argument to stick your head in the sand and let censorship happen. I don't like that.

Here is my argument: Censorship is morally wrong. I condemn China for censorship. I condemn all Iranian dictators (supported by the US or not) for censorship. I condemn any censorship that might be going on in the USA.

That's my moral compass, bogaboga. What do you say?

Falun Gong! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26151105)

Guns N' Roses! Chinese Democracy! Free Tibet! Taiwan is a sovereign nation!

Just wanted to see if /. is censored.

Oh yeah, also that Moe haircut from the Three Stooges is seriously out of date.

When you worry about your next meal... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26151135)

When you constantly worry about where your next meal is coming from, you tend not to care about 'trivial' things such as 'the internet' and censorship.

The Chinese are ignorant. (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26151145)

And that's not meant to be an insult. It's a sad, unfortunate truth that has been manufactured by their government. I've had Chinese friends throughout my university years, and I can't count the number of times I got little other than blank stares when talking about Tiannamen Square. Then they see the pictures and the footage, and _that's_ when it really gets scary -- I would say the reactions were half and half.

Half were disgusted that their government would commit such atrocities, and it really hit them personally -- most Chinese people are tremendously patriotic, and to see what happened there really shakes their foundations. Some of them were brought to tears.

The other half? Well, their reaction was more like, "tough shit. They were out of control and they shouldn't have been protesting there, the army did the right thing."

The right thing. By running over an unarmed guy with a fucking tank, among other horrors, they did the right thing?

It's no surprise that they enjoy being censored by their government because they're almost unwilling to accept that their government can do any wrong -- and why should they? Their government, as horrible as it is, has managed to turn China into what is perhaps the most economically sound of the Asian nation. Hell, half of what runs the Western world (e.g. computers) are _made_ in China. They feel superior, and they feel their government is superior as well. It might be hard to understand, but just as much as they believe Tiannamen Square, Tibet and the Falun Gong are all better off having had government "intervention," they also believe that the government is "right" in censoring them.

Re:The Chinese are ignorant. (5, Insightful)

Sinbios (852437) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151933)

Uh, tank guy didn't get run over.

Anyway, you have to realize that Chinese values are fundamentally different from your own. "The Right Thing", to you, might mean freedom of expression, the right to bear arms, etc., but that's not true of all people. Here in Canada, we believe The Right Thing is gays should be allowed to marry, and nobody should walk around packin'. In China, people believe The Right Thing is a centralized, stable government.

Personally, I find it easy to understand the sentiments of the people you mentioned who believed Tiananmen was a case of "tough shit", because given China's chaotic political history, especially in the recent past, organized, stable government is a top priority for many people. And you can't blame them, given the shit they had to suffer through with unstable governments. Many people today still remember said shit, and deems it important to pass these values, namely avoiding said shit, down to the next generation. And the protestors were challenging those very values - the main goal behind the protest was further government reforms, and sought to basically remove the Party from power. In essence, completely disrupting the stable government that China had suffered through three or four periods of complete chaos for.

Obviously Westerners, when presented with the two sides, take the side of the idealistic students clamouring for rights and liberty, since you've enjoyed the luxuries of stable government for centuries. I mean, when was the last major revolution in the Western world? The French Revolution? The availability of these luxuries means that you no longer rank them as high as someone who's lived through several turbulent governments would, and instead prioritize further luxuries like the freedoms I mentioned above. Well, when you look at those freedoms from the perspective of someone who just came out of the feudal age, they're really not that essential to life. So you must understand why they don't rank as high on the list of priorities for a Chinese person.

Re:The Chinese are ignorant. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26152369)

Oh, I'm sorry, he didn't get run over. Factual error.

I'm not sorry for anything else I said, however, and I find flaw in many of your arguments. One is the typically snobby, infuriating attitude that the fact that one culture's values are "different" from another excuses them from behaving like civilized human beings to one another. "Here in Canada" we have a charter of rights and freedoms, as a matter of fact, which -should- guarantee that every citizen in the country has equal rights and opportunity. We're also a part of the UN, part of whose mandate is to guarantee these same rights to all people on a global basis. The fact that the Chinese apparently believe that the right thing is a "stable, centralized government," even if it means quietly killing and torturing some of its own people and overthrowing the governments of its neighbours, does not mean that it IS the right thing. Some morals go beyond boundaries, they're what join us together as human beings.

Secondly I find it absolutely laughable, and perhaps intentionally misleading that you would even -suggest- that the past few centuries have been in any way peaceful for the Western world (of which France is not considered a part, incidentally). Starting from the 18th century (a "few hundred" as you would put it), there have been over 40 major conflicts involving North America, either on its own soil or others (ones that you seem to have conveniently forgotten include both World Wars, the Vietnam and Korean Wars, and a few other blatantly obvious choices). Try reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_North_America to educate yourself, assuming that Wikipedia isn't censored where you live. We have -not- had stable governments for centuries and we've been through our own share of atrocities ("Here in Canada" we also had concentration camps for the Japanese during the second World War, which you also seem to have conveniently forgotten).

Yes, we do take the side of idealistic students clamouring for rights and liberty, because it's the same thing that we are clamouring for every day. Freedom of expression is -not- a luxury, and if you honestly believe that it is, then I truly feel sorry for you.

DUH also... (1)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151197)

... but for a different reason. I, too, find these numbers suspect, but not impossible. If you are told from birth that this is the way things are supposed to be, you are likely to believe it.

China Schmina (4, Interesting)

owlnation (858981) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151291)

Just wait until the London Olympics. We'll show the Chinese. Ha, they don't even have 5 million security cameras. Amateurs. Hadriansfirewall will kick your Greatfirewall's ass.

Comrade Gordon "the Butcher of Woolies" Brown-shirt, and Leader Jacqui "Winston" Smith will show you the way.

China? Censorship? (1)

TigerDawn (314322) | more than 5 years ago | (#26151319)

I would like it that way too, if my alternative was to be picked by the police and never heard from again.

Another perspective (1)

Thaelon (250687) | more than 5 years ago | (#26152437)

Lots of US "news sources" are garbage. So this is a double edged sword.

Or did you think the whole world cares about CNN's coverage of Anna Nicole Smith, Paris Hilton, Britney Spears etc.?

IMHO, CNN and Fox News both should be required to carry a banner (on TV and the intertubes) that says "For entertainment purposes only."

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