Microsoft Uses WGA To Obtain Record Jail Sentences 311
theodp writes "According to Microsoft, 'No information is collected during the [Genuine Advantage Program] validation process that can be used to identify or contact a user.' That's little comfort to the software counterfeiters who were just handed jail sentences ranging from 1.5-6.5 years by the Futian People's Court in China, especially since Microsoft contends that much of the estimated $2B in bogus software was detected by its Windows Genuine Advantage program. 'Software piracy negatively impacts local economic growth,' explained Microsoft VP Fengming Liu in a celebratory New Year's Eve press release. But then again, so does transferring $16B of assets and $9B in annual profit to an Irish tax haven, doesn't it?"
GOOD! (Score:5, Interesting)
Seriously, There is a persisting writeup from a japanese LUG years ago talking about how pirated copies of windows cannibalize the linux userbase and dev base.
Pirated windows is the bane of linux, and I applaud microsoft for slitting their own throat by pursuing windows counterfeiters.
Not good! (Score:2)
What you're basically saying is that just one raid justifies MS annoying all of us legitimate users and treating us like criminals.
Re:Not good! (Score:5, Insightful)
I am now certain to exterminate WGA from any and all computers I come into contact with.
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Not good! (Score:5, Informative)
I call them up every time I reinstall. "Hello, how can I help you." "I reinstalled windows because of a virus." "Ok, enter this key:"
It only takes a couple minutes.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Yup, it works every time, regardless of hardware changes.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Not good! (Score:5, Insightful)
What you're basically saying is that just one raid justifies MS annoying all of us legitimate users and treating us like criminals.
Nothing justifies it, but sticking with a company that treats you like a thief is pretty much acceptance of the charge. You are guilty until proven possibly innocent this time... And Microsoft reserves the right to alter how you are allowed to use their product at any time. An extra check here, a stricter enforcement of the reactivation policy there, and you will move to the next version, or buy a new copy for as long as it is available. Don't like it, you are free to go elsewhere. The WGA software was enough to give me the final push to move to Linux, and I had a fully legit copy of XP. For many, this isn't a big enough problem, and for others, it is something they don't even know about. Basically, Microsoft can do what they like, and until it is tested in court, you are stuck with whatever conditions Microsoft choose to apply.
Re: (Score:2)
Listen, it's your choice to stay with them. There are alternatives. If they treat you like a crook, leave them. What's the problem?
Re:Not good! (Score:4, Insightful)
What's the problem?
The problem is that the world is not as black and white as you make it out to be. Because of their job requirements, their lack of technical ability or many other possible reasons, many people cannot leave the Windows world. If I refuse to ever use Windows again I would be out of a job and it would be very difficult to find a new one (unless I was willing to leave the IT field and work construction or as a dishwasher or something).
Windows is the big player in the desktop OS world. Leaving it is simply not a viable option for many of us.
Re: (Score:2)
That's been obvious for years. I imagine many people can still recite a Windows 98 key from memory.
Office 97 spread virally the same way.
As far as I'm concerned, Windows should become more bloated, more annoying, and harder to maintain. Geeks can handle it and make a few shekels on the side, while users will be pushed to other operating systems.
Re: (Score:2)
Office 97 spread virally the same way.
What, you mean 111-1111111 ? :P
Yea but ... (Score:3, Informative)
Didn't Ballmer get the memo?
Re: (Score:2)
I agree, I predict that as Vista and Windows 7 get harder to pirate or copy, the user base of WIndows will shrink to the point where Linux becomes much more popular.
I know for me having my legit version of XP and having to phone activate my Vista everytime I reinstall drove me to try linux, and now I'm hooked 8)
Re:GOOD! (Score:5, Informative)
Could you provide the link?
I have thought about this for a while, 'free' software here doesn't make much sense as windows vista cost less than 1$, and 98%+ software here are pirated.
Our government is switching to FLOSS software, and I think stopping piracy in my country will be a good thing to FLOSS.
It seems the original was finally taken down in leu of more recent entries, but it has been mirrored verbatim elsewhere [autotelic.com] if you wish to take a look
Re:GOOD! (Score:5, Insightful)
Sorry, but the writer of that article lost me in the first section.
Mr Kingsley-Hughes gives five essential points to explain what is so bad about Linux that it can't even succeed for free
What he means is "Five things that Microsoft does to hinder Linux's success, and that I personally dislike because I've got no fuckin' clue."
His main point being in the headline "Windows is free" (eg. via torrent). This is nothing Linux has done wrong, is it? Yet he writes it in that way in the whole large section.
Too many different versions of Linux.
Again one of those retards who still think in terms of "software product versions", despite calling themselves "experts".
There are no "versions". There are packagers. Companies, and other groups. A living, breathing, healthy concurrency. Each group with their own philosophy.
There is not even a "product" "Linux". It's like he would say that there are too many different versions of candy bars, so he rather wants ice cream, despite there only being 3 versions of two products from one single company.
This is a giant major advantage of Linux. Him not being used to it does not make it wrong. It means he's even too lazy to try to understand this, despite calling himself an "expert".
I see GNU/Linux as a kind of meta-OS. You create your very own OS out of it. Some people have done this for you to some extend.
People want certainty that hardware and software will work.
Well. Linux does this better than any new Windows version. Install Linux, and all supported hardware is there. Install Windows, and then go hunt for drivers. Signed drivers.
I bet he drags the drivers of those companies into the spotlight, that refuse to create a Linux driver, partially because MS told them to do so, and partially because they have something shady to hide (like their most expensive product and their cheapest product only differing in the driver code).
As far as most people are concerned, the command line has gone the way of the dinosaur.
This guy really calls himself anything?? How incompetent can you be?
The whole point of having a computer, is to be able to automate things.
This is mostly done trough writing programs. But then you have programs, and the OS, and you want them to work together in a specific way.
A comforting little automation there... an quick rename of just those files, while replacing a word inside them... let two tools work together for more comfort...
All this glue in between is filled with shell scripting, or as he calls it "the command line".
If you can't do that, you're not really using the computer. If there would be a computer license, this would be the major thing you would have to be able to do.
When you're only being able to eat pre-chewed food, you're dead, every time the pre-chewer has a problem.
When I came from Windows, this "glue" scripts, and the little automation of repetitive tasks, including the use of DBUS, and even Greasemonkey, were the first thing that made me say "Wow, I love Linux". All this shit that I had to work countless hours on on Windows... and all this comfort that I previously could not even imagine... dissolved into some small shell scripts. Everything was so easy. And most importantly: Everything suddenly was possible.
The day where shell scripting dies, is the day where the computer dies, is a day where I will long be dead and gone.
Linux is still too geeky.
Translation: "I don't like you. I've never learned to know you. I've not worked with you. But, hell, I don't like you!"
I bet he has not even tried Ubuntu.
I'm sorry, but with this EPIC FAIL of an article introduction, I will not throw away my time to read this, but use it to save others from going down that dirty pipe with him.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
A beta version of MS Windows Vista Mark 2 (AKA MS Windows 7) could only be available via Bit Torrent as a result of either MS itself putting up this torrent, or one of its partners putting it up.
I personally tend to the view that it was MS Marketing that put it up, as I'm convinced that MS would rather their software be "pirated" and used almost everywhere than not pirated and to have a majority of people using anything else.
Re: (Score:2)
WGA forum (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm betting that a good amount of the information used in this case came from posters on the WGA forum [microsoft.com], where people can post if they're having issues with WGA. One of the tools available in that forum is a WGA diagnostic tool [microsoft.com] which will generate a sanitized text dump of a user's windows validation information. Most cases on that forum are people whose brother, cousin, or sketchy PC shop installed a common warez release of Windows on their systems, but several there are people who bought apparently legitimate software from resellers which failed validation and later turned out to be counterfeit. Microsoft got in touch with these users, identified the resellers, and I'm betting that this news story is the result.
Er, did WGA really do much there? (Score:2, Interesting)
Sounds to me like they were just bragging that WGA actually noticed when a user had a counterfeit copy, not that it had any effect on the sentence.
Re:Er, did WGA really do much there? (Score:5, Insightful)
Right. If the submitter had actually read the article, this would have jumped out at him:
"The counterfeits were also discovered through customs seizures"
The fact that *after* they had seized the software, WGA was capable of detecting it when installed is just pr for WGA and not an indication that WGA is sending personal information to MS. It may or may not being doing that, but you couldn't prove it by this article.
If you really want to see what WGA is sending to Microsoft, just capture the packets on their way to the internet and see what's being sent. Has anyone done that and found anything of real interest?
Re: (Score:2)
Tenuous Summary (Score:2)
WGA exists to bug users that have stolen the software and so Microsoft has an overall clue about how many people have stolen the software, not go after specifics.
I remember seeing a report from Microsoft saying they knew for a fact that 1 in 3 corporate machines were stolen. If they wanted to target for the purposes of bringing them to court it wouldn't exactly be difficult; they just want to irritate thieves and have an idea how many rogue copies there are.
Re:Tenuous Summary (Score:5, Informative)
In this case it sounds like we're talking about commercially-pirated-and-passed-off-as-genuine software, rather than end-user-pirated software.
FTA: The counterfeit software was found in 36 countries and 11 different languages. It was so sophisticated that it contained legitimate computer code written by Microsoft for programs such as Windows XP and Vista and Microsoft Office, but also had touches of the criminals' own coding as well. That was allegedly added to mimic security programs and fool users into believing the product was authentic.
So it may actually be the case that some of the end users actually thought they had authentic products, and were alerted by WGA. I doubt this happens often, but Microsoft is bound to mention it if it does happen.
Re:Tenuous Summary (Score:4, Interesting)
People call my store all the time accusing us of giving them stolen software. I explain that they have an OEM sticker on their PC and we'd never do that, but heck, Microsoft might get them to buy a second or third copy- so maybe that was their plan.
Re: (Score:2)
Baloney. Unless this is Vietnam or a similar third world country. I can believe one in three have failed WGA, but that is NOT the same thing at all.
Just wait till a Chinese Co breaks the GPL (Score:5, Interesting)
And a lot of you guys will be screaming murder. Have you realized that GPL enforcement and Windows license enforcement comes from the same thing as Copyright law?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Have you realized that GPL enforcement and Windows license enforcement comes from the same thing as Copyright law?
There is one big difference though: Microsoft often comes after end users of its software, while GPL enforcement never concerns use. GPL enforcement is only directed at companies and organizations that distribute the code further without fulfilling the license obligations, specifically the requirement of source code availability.
Who are you talking too? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Micro$oft lie? (Score:2)
(RTFA)
Maybe not. Oh well, so much for a massive class action.
Ratting on suppliers (Score:3, Informative)
So did MS lie when they assured me that no personal information was collected when I installed WGA?
As I understand it, WGA includes a tool to submit an anonymous tip against your supplier. So it collects no personal information about you but instead about your supplier.
Re: (Score:2)
In order, the beneficiaries of class action lawsuits are:
The lawyers. -- the majority beneficiary. The lawyers from both sides are the only ones to actually receive noticeable returns
The companies -- the class action absolves them from any further liability for the thing being sued over.
The coffee shops -- where the lawyers meet to discuss strategies and flirt with comely baristas.
And.. that's it I guess. oh, if you're a member of the class, you might get a coupon for a free donut or $5 off your next pur
Theft (Score:5, Insightful)
"But then again, so does transferring $16B of assets and $9B in annual profit to an Irish tax haven, doesn't it?"
What's the point of adding that statement? So it's OK to steal from someone who is "rich" or who has a shrewd accountant?
I don't like Microsoft any more than the next guy, but winking at large scale theft of their product because they somehow "deserve it" is just plain wrong.
Cheers,
Re: (Score:2, Flamebait)
Redundant but necessary reply: (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft says pirating software takes money from local economies! (read: pirates are stealin' America's money!!1one)
Microsoft uses an Irish tax haven to keep billions of their dollars out of reach of the American tax man.
If you don't see the hypocrisy in that, please read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy [wikipedia.org]
Re:Redundant but necessary reply: (Score:5, Funny)
Well, it's doing wonders for the local (Irish) economy.
Re: (Score:2)
Are you too stupid to realize they have a fiduciary duty to maximize shareholder profit?
Are you too stupid to realize that there's more to life than "maximizing shareholder profit", and that corporations should be held to ethical standards?
Has it really become acceptable to publicly call for, and expect people to grub all the money they possibly can with no regard to the society you live in? It's a sad state of affairs when one person criticizes another for not being greedy enough. I understand corporatio
Re: (Score:2)
1. Microsoft benefits from many government programs, such as the H1B visa program. If MS doesn't like it here, there is no reason the US government should further subsidize Microsoft by selectively letting anyone MS wants to hire move to the head of the line to enter this country. If Microsoft plays hardball to maximize its profits, then the Government should play hardball to do its proper job as well,or are you one of those idiots too stupid to realize that the government has a duty to control immigration?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The purpose of the statement was to expose as hypocritical MS claims about the effects of software piracy on local economies. Please do try and keep up at the back of the class.
So you're saying paying taxes is the same as putting money into the local economy? I must have missed that lesson...
Re: (Score:2)
Paying local taxes is a consequence of keeping money in the local economy.
In order to avoid the taxes, companies are sending the money out of the local economy. Perversly, people seem to blame the companies for this and not the taxes.
Local economic impact (Score:5, Insightful)
'Software piracy negatively impacts local economic growth,'
And buying Microsoft software takes money out of local economies and sends it to Redmond. (And buying Apple software does the same thing, but to Cupertino).
I say that using non-free software can also negatively impact local economies, but people do it anyway.
Really, answering my own post here, it's not just as black and white as that. Companies using open source would help energize their local economy by using local companies/consultants, but often they don't. And companies using MS software, while spending for it, may use local companies/consultants as well, keeping some of the money local.
However, in the case of real large scale piracy, it's the worst of both worlds, because money has left the local economy, and not gone to the rightful owners (in this case, Microsoft).
Re: (Score:2)
I'm also curious to know how MS invests in the local economy. To me, local means city or town. So maybe they sell professional services through local reps but to me this is really a profit center that can't practically be served by Redmond because of language or cultural barriers.
It would be interesting to see a ratio between local investments by MS and "piracy" rates based on WGA data.
Re: (Score:2)
They provide an ecosystem which allows local professionals to earn a living (developers doing .net stuff, etc.) However, it often entails a lot of money leaving the area (licensing costs) when *decent* equivalents exist. Lot of open source stuff just doesn't cut the mustard, but plenty of it does.
Re: (Score:2)
The legal definition of 'local' is more likely to be the whole state where Microsoft makes its headquarters (Possibly for companies taking advantage of things such as Delaware's liberal incorporation rules, the headquarters rule is replaced with wherever they are incorporated). If the company gets any tax advantages for a branch office, factory or other physical presences being located in some other particular state, again, the definition of local is normally the whole state. Unless a city or town (or count
Re:Local economic impact (Score:4, Insightful)
OT, I know, but God I hate manager speak.
Why do they say "negatively impacts" when "harms" is a better word?
Software piracy harms local economic growth.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Local economic impact (Score:5, Funny)
"OT, I know, but God I hate manager speak."
Me too. It's time we pushed beyond it to embrace a new paradigm.
Re: (Score:2)
Microsoft is building a $300 million dollar research campus in Baking's university district.
China's "Silicon Valley."
100,000 square meters of floor space.
5,000 scientists and engineers. Microsoft Breaks Ground on New R&D Campus [microsoft.com]
Microsoft is a multinational with employees, facilities, and investments across the globe. To understand its impact you
Re: (Score:2)
Have you not been paying attention? Microsoft is FLINTHEART GLOMGOLD, not Scrooge McDuck.
Biased summary (or: business as usual on Slashdot) (Score:4, Insightful)
The summary appears to suggest that Microsoft was lying about WGA not collecting personal information, otherwise I just can't see why that statement appeared in the summary at all.
Unfortunately, the facts don't support that accusation. All we know is that WGA was used to count how many users had a particular counterfeit copy of Windows; this does not require any identifying information, just a license key. Microsoft then determined through other means that this particular copy originated with a particular pirate group (and yes, piracy is the correct term here).
I also fail to see what Microsoft's accounting practices have to do with this story. Is the submitter trying to suggest that a wrong committed by Microsoft somehow negates its right to seek justice in court? That's not how it works.
Obligatory disclaimer: I'm no more of a Microsoft fan than anyone here, but biased, sensationalist story-telling pisses me off.
WTF? (Score:4, Informative)
Short version for those who can't be bothered to RTFA: WGA doesn't send personally identifiable data, and the people sentenced were not end users but pirates (yeah, I said pirates. Suck it bitches.) who sold on illegal copies.
Re: (Score:2)
WTF? Did /you/ even read the summary? It never said anything about sending users' identifiable data to MS, rather the opposite in fact, noting that MS claims it does NOT collect said user identifiable data. The summary says nothing about the users going to jail, either, but rather the large-scale copyright violators who supplied the software in the first place -- which is what you were claiming too, except you said the summary said different. Can't you tell the difference between the words "software cou
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
"According to researchers, 'there is no link between the MMR vaccine and autism.' That's little comfort to Joe and Mary Blogs whose son has been diagnosed with autism."
Why mention the MMR vaccine at all unless you want to suggest a link? Same with the reference to personally identifiable data in the summary.
Re: (Score:2)
Simple. It's emphasizing the difference between "no data" and "no user identifying data". Just because the /user/ isn't identified does /not/ mean /other/ data isn't sent, in this case, possibly /supplier/ identifying data.
The GPL makes a similar distinction. Other than the no warrantee bit, it doesn't apply to the user, only the distributor. There's a difference. Well, here there's a difference too. Whatever MS might be saying about user identifying data doesn't apply to /distributor/ identifiable da
Taxes (Score:5, Insightful)
It's hard to blame Microsoft for moving money offshore to avoid taxes, we're the idiots that tax the hell out of our populace and our companies and think no bad could ever come from it. Perhaps if we were a bit more supportive of success rather than spending $700B - $1,700B rewarding failure ...
ridiculous (Score:3, Interesting)
Microsoft is a convicted criminal enterprise. It beats the hell out of the rest of us why Americans remain so unconcerned about the vast scale of their theft, not to mention the tax evasion - and continue to let them get away with it and even defend them... No wonder your house of cards is collapsing...
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
When was Microsoft convicted of tax evasion?
Re: (Score:2)
The US actually has lower taxes than most countries (especially compared to the EU). Our "base" tax rate is higher, but as a result of exceptions for every little thing our citizens (and especially our corporations) pay significantly less than those of other countries.
Re: (Score:2)
Ok so do you want to pay them then?
The individual tax rate and taxes for services used is very low in the United States compared to other 1st world countries.
Corporate taxes are not however. My dad was taxed 50% when he worked in Canada and so was his pension even though he was American. What incentive will it make people to work harder if taxes take more.
Fact of the matter is taxes suck and we can't live wihtout them unfortunately. Accountants will find loopholes and I bet if you cut the corporate tax rate
Re: (Score:2)
the guiding principle was that you only trade with those who you can trust (to a degree).
Sure, like Mexico and China, neither of which are worthy of anyone's trust in this regard, since they perceive the United States as a free candy store to be exploited to the maximum degree possible.
Furthermore, I wouldn't give Clinton that much credit. Clinton was no angel, believe me (much of the regulatory change that allowed the current financial crisis can be laid at his feet, not George Bush's.) Neither is George Bush, and sixteen years of these two Presidents has been a disaster.
Keep in mind tho
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
So the solution to entities dodging their social responsibility is to declare it no longer their responsibility? If you cut MS and co. a break on their taxes, someone else has to take up the slack. That someone is the middle class who are less able to afford it.
Re: (Score:2)
So, the natural solution to this is to give corporations incentives to keep their money local instead of sending it to tax havens.
Yeah, incentives like "If you try to evade taxes by sending your money offshore we will put you in jail."
Why don't you think these companies OPERATE in Ireland? You know the answer, because Ireland doesn't have the population, infrastructure, educational system, etc. these companies need to operate. And that infrastructure if paid for largely by tax dollars. Make no mistake, thes
don't be .... (Score:2)
....human.
You are born and you will die and in your human lfe time you have to fit it in to the ideologies others have created. But why if there is a better way than teh way being used?
If anyone is looking for to use MS windows pirating as an excuse for the bad economy or in any way contributing to it... Wake up.
The economy is not what it is because of the knowledge, natural resources and man power we have, as what we have here calculates to a far better result.
But it is what it is because of how badly it h
more accurately... (Score:2)
Buying a Microsoft product from Microsoft "negatively impacts local economic growth."
Buying from a pirate directly contributes to local economic growth - in the short term, at least.
It seems likely that any Microsoft product is a long term liability, though.
Excuse me? (Score:2, Insightful)
You say that as if they deserve anything other than what they got. They knew the risks, they knew the penalties (or should have), they got caught. Now, it is time for them to pay the price.
Maybe all you poor little whiners who cry every time someone is busted for violating other people's rights should imagine how you would like it if someone violated your rights. Oh, that is right, when someone violates the rights of FSF or the like, you want the book thro
You're kidding! Microsoft lied to us??? (Score:2)
One more reason to move toward Open Source and tell these fuckers to take a hike. Having a nasty, paranoid mind-set, I have avoided WGA like the plague. There's less convenient but effective ways to keep my system updated, and properly-maintained security to deal with the time lag.
I'm not worried about piracy, but I don't for a minute believe Microsoft's claims about WGA. I'm certain they're collecting personal information, and I'm equally certain that at some point, they'll find a way to sell it or of
Right thing. (Score:3, Insightful)
Despite the hatred against Microsoft, commercial or large-scale cloning of MS-products is not ok.
The right thing to do, is to destroy Microsoft completely, burn Bill and his EEE (extend, ...) and marketing team in hell and nuke everything from orbit, just to be sure. ;)
Re: (Score:2)
Despite the hatred against Microsoft, commercial or large-scale cloning of MS-products is not ok.
The right thing to do, is to destroy Microsoft completely, burn Bill and his EEE (extend, ...) and marketing team in hell and nuke everything from orbit, just to be sure. ;)
Nah, we don't need the fallout. Better solution: put them in orbit and don't bother sending along any oxygen tanks.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
No. "Ireland's low corporate tax rate of 12.5% on trading profits has been a magnet for multinational companies..."
The moral of the story is "Lower your taxes, and they shall come."
Re:The moral of the story... (Score:5, Insightful)
We can't all be tax-havens. It is only useful to small countries that can exist on the small transfer fees of enormous corporations from other countries.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
We can't all be tax-havens. It is only useful to small countries that can exist on the small transfer fees of enormous corporations from other countries.
*And* that are financed by huge subsidies by their rich neighbours so that they can be brought kicking and screaming in the century of the fruitbat. Although the whole tax-haven thing isn't so popular lately.
Re: (Score:2)
It's the other way around: we don't NEED all be tax-havens.
Some countries have enough advantages to be attractive for corporate centers without tax breaks.
On the other hand, some countries don't spend billions on crap and therefore can simply afford lower taxes.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
No, you are right.
Some of us have massive social welfare programs, lifestyle subsidies, and wealth re-distributions to pay for.
You are under no obligation to arrange your affairs to MAXIMIZE your tax burden.
I can tell you're one of those Republican types who actually believe you work harder for the life you currently have than those who have less than you. That because you were priveleged enough to have advantages, such as a family with the resources to send you to college, you somehow deserve more than those who couldn't go.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:You have no right for disadvantage compensation (Score:5, Insightful)
You contradict your own premise.
There are three tiers to a successful nation:
Extreme right view points ignore the need for a healthy and skilled labor force and its impact on the other two. You protest that no one person has "the right" to be compensated for a disadvantage. However, the entire notion of society is built upon just this right. The right for a collaborative of individuals to work toward a common end despite relatively minor inconveniences to an individual.
So you ask, why should I have to pay out of pocket to send some poor kid to school who could not otherwise afford it? Why should I spend money to improve education and decrease negative social pressures in low income neighborhoods when I live in a nice suburb seemingly unconnected?
The response is simple, it costs more to imprison a man then to educate him. . . and the education also benefits society by producing a skilled member of the worked force. Society receives a net gain when it assists an out of work man in finding employment then if it ignores his plight.
If you don't like the system, then so be it. Walden it up if you wish, but be a man of principle and shirk all the social welfare you enjoy on a daily basis such as socalized military, socialized police, socialized road and transport, subsidized agriculture, subsidized economies. And when you take off to the hills for a life of solitude unburdened by the unfair demands for good health, equal opportunities, and pursuit of a decent life of your fellow man please don't drive on our roads, our airways, or purchase any of our subsidized foods on your way out.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Taxes are robbery, yes it's that simple. When you're taking money from another people under the threat of violence and use it to the end of your choice (however noble this end is in your opinion,) you're committing robbery. And it's precisely what state does with taxes.
No, it isn't. When you are robbed, you have things taken from you under threat of harm. When you pay taxes, you have things taken from you under threat of harm in return for the use the social amenities that we take for granted. Everyone uses these amenities in some form or other, and though they aren't all essential to human survival, they are a staple of life currently.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm in college right now. My dad makes about $27k a year supporting his wife and my brother. He makes just enough that I don't get shit from the government via FAFSA. I'm working as many hours as I can pick up in a worker-saturated college town that exists around the college, and only going to school at about 3/4 time.
Where is my advantage again?
Re:The moral of the story... (Score:5, Insightful)
You don't think that striving is beneath you. You think that giving up a little pleasure now for a hugely improved life tomorrow is pretty damned smart. You don't think that having to skip a few nights out at the bar is a violation of your human rights. You don't think that some dude shooting his load inside your mother somehow entitles you to a life of luxury and idleness. You aren't so full of false pride that you have to be the center of attention and importance in everything you do. You don't reject every piece of advice because you know that you don't know everything. You aren't a lazy whiner who thinks that even the slightest bit of effort is too much. You don't insist that everyone blindly and baselessly treat you with the respect and deference given to people who've spent decades proving their capability and knowledge.
Re: (Score:2)
I'd wager from your description you're attending a small university or communi
Re:The moral of the story... (Score:4, Insightful)
Every US taxpayer should be outraged. If it weren't for practices such as these, the individual tax payer wouldn't have the burden it suffers today. If companies like these were to pay their taxes rather than hide from them with schemes like these, you would be a lot more free to enjoy the money you earn. And this isn't even about "Hate Microsoft." This is about what I suspect all large companies do.
Re:The moral of the story... (Score:4, Insightful)
Wouldn't a better paradigm be to have low corporate taxes to get more corporations to move into your local economy and supply more jobs?
Also, I'd rather have taxpayers know more exactly what their true tax burden is. It is not in the citizen's best interest to have a corporation pay a tax and then have the consumer reimburse the corporation for the tax by paying higher prices for goods and services. How can you make an informed decision about a government's budget if you don't know what the true tax burden is?
Re:The moral of the story... (Score:4, Informative)
"Wouldn't a better paradigm be..."
Oh yes, because that works so well for us now!
You realize that notion has been tried and continually tried only to see abused by corporations. Some months ago there was a story where Houston gave incentives to a company to move into their location. In the end, that company ended up sending the job-creating part of its business outside of the US because the labor was cheaper. Houston then sought to recover its incentives offering and as I recall, the fight is still ongoing.
Giving to business in hopes that things will "trickle down to benefit the community" is a dream that has never been shown to work. It has been tried and has failed in every example I am aware of.
A previous responder says something to the effect of not blaming businesses for finding legal ways to shelter themselves from taxes while absorbing benefits of the communities they exist within. This is showing a LOT of taking and nearly no giving back. This is standard operating procedure for the bean-counter-run businesses who seek short term gains on investments. The same person said "...at least they are legal!" Yes, they are legal, but they are immoral. They lobbied and "contributed" heavily to legislators to create these holes in the system to allow them to "legally" do the things they do. I should hope that people begin to see there is no connection between legal and moral. There are many laws that serve immoral ends and tax shelters for big business are among them.
Cool Logic... (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I was liking you in the first paragraph, but that turned around in the 2nd.
I agree government spending is completely out of control (even though I'm a socialist). However, I do not believe citizens should be policed and taxed on every little thing ever. I firmly believe that taxes should be fixed per person, regardless of whether you are rich or poor. Too poor (read: unable/unwilling to work) to afford the tax ? Move to a cheaper country! Corporate tax should also be fixed, and commensurate to the ense
Re:The moral of the story... (Score:5, Informative)
Whatever you are, you are no socialist.
Re:The moral of the story... (Score:5, Insightful)
No the moral of the story is if Microsoft's actions are even potentially open to not being condemned (i.e. preventing the loss of billions of dollars of revenue), then tack on a completely separate story just in case.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Lower the taxes and you have one big deficit that we have today federally and at state level.
Then you need to cut education, roads to ship products, and other services. The end result is that the employer will leave because of a unqualified workforce and no infrastructure to ship products.
Everyone loses.
Corporations are big users of governmental services. If you think they pay too much this is understandable. To pay nothing however is immoral as Ireland is making some tax money that the United States is los
Re: (Score:2)
Well, you do have a point. It's possible, in theory, to extract the resources needed to support a corporation in a community by other means, such as forcing them to build low-cost housing, forcing them to pay for new parking facilities, etc. But I'm not aware of any cases where such deals, themselves, covered the overall cost of the corporation to the community. As I understand the economics, that comes from property taxes, income taxes on the employees, sales taxes on the employee and corporate purchases,
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I keep telling people we should drop the tax rate on corporations in the US to about 2-4%. That would make it one of the lowest tax rates in the world. Of course, I recommend that they do that and change the tax system to gross receipts basis. Nobody seems to like that part.
Re: (Score:2)
This will alter the behavior of the corporation so they will have a financial incentive to under produce and not invest as much in assets. This will raise the price of goods and lower supply.
This is not good either. Either way the tax is needed and there is no good tax. The best taxes are those that do not alter consumer or producer behavior and a land tax might be the best one here.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Thats an economic fallacy called the Window Broken Fallacy.
The gist is that a kid breaks a window,therefore stimulates the economy to "create hundreds of dollars" of potential wealth in services and such.
The fallacypart is that would have happened any number of different ways. Instead, the person with the broken window is out that much money.