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Perl Migrates To the Git Version Control System

Soulskill posted more than 5 years ago | from the git-on-up dept.

Perl 277

On Elpeleg writes "The Perl Foundation has announced they are switching their version control systems to git. According to the announcement, Perl 5 migration to git would allow the language development team to take advantage of git's extensive offline and distributed version support. Git is open source and readily available to all Perl developers. Among other advantages, the announcement notes that git simplifies commits, producing fewer administrative overheads for integrating contributions. Git's change analysis tools are also singled out for praise. The transformation from Perforce to git apparently took over a year. Sam Vilain of Catalyst IT 'spent more than a year building custom tools to transform 21 years of Perl history into the first ever unified repository of every single change to Perl.' The git repository incorporates historic snapshot releases and patch sets, which is frankly both cool and historically pleasing. Some of the patch sets were apparently recovered from old hard drives, notching up the geek satisfaction factor even more. Developers can download a copy of the current Perl 5 repository directly from the perl.org site, where the source is hosted."

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277 comments

que the unreadability jokes (4, Funny)

Dan667 (564390) | more than 5 years ago | (#26320753)

but this is fantastic. I use perl every day and love it.

I have eliminated all the juice (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26320879)

I'm glad I don't have a whole country full of deceitful, greedy kikes stealing all my water and land anywhere near me. Fucking Jews can't just live in peace. They have to steal other people's land. Our national economy is collapsing from the Jewbanks doing their usual Jewthing. You see, with Jews, you lose. That's how THEY win. They WIN by making YOU lose. Let's lose the Jews.

Re:que the unreadability jokes (4, Funny)

Dystopian Rebel (714995) | more than 5 years ago | (#26320963)

Dear Perl Monger,

TMTOWTDI in Perl. However, in English spelling:

- Que Publishing is a publisher of computer books
- Q was an arrogant but powerful character in ST:TNG who liked to annoy the crew of the Enterprise because they didn't copulate anywhere near as much as James... T... Kirk.
- queue, noun, a line or series of people or things; verb, to form a line or series.
- cul, noun, French, the buttocks
- cue, noun, a signal or indication; verb, to signal, to indicate, to move to position.

2009: The Year Of The Truly Helpful Slashdot Grammar Nazi

Re:que the unreadability jokes (2, Informative)

lordSaurontheGreat (898628) | more than 5 years ago | (#26322277)

You forget that Q also appeared in ST:V a few times.

2009: The Year Of The Truly Helpful Slashdot Grammar Nazi Watchmen

Re:que the unreadability jokes (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26320967)

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captcha: inferior

Re:que the unreadability jokes (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26321331)

Here is the script used to migrate perl to the git version control system:

#! /bin/perl
$T=s/Y9/s/0YT-sx^*%fr86%8 ^% v%^* %^* 8*R%^*f vR%^ print @V^58 *$$%&^*7890JH87gV7 65&ygtyR$KLJi"'"%$44:H{"['J{]09'[u"JOPu9)P{"Y8yghO*HYgT*gtO""i'G{*(#h'oiHIO*UYF&d97c 567F&Olf*(Up[;yh['
"[]i
O}{];{:}{;';}
jpJhi8[9
89ouyfo8tIGUYf65D 54$4$edc%$

Re:que the unreadability jokes (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26322237)

Don't run this script! It popped up a picture of a goatse-tubgirl or a tubgirl-goatse! I don't know what, but I AM SCARRED FOR LIFE AAHHH MY EYES!

Re:que the unreadability jokes (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26322323)

Parent post is just gibberish, it is not a real Perl program.

Re:que the unreadability jokes (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26321919)

What's perl again?

I'd rather seen they moved to Subversion (1, Funny)

berend botje (1401731) | more than 5 years ago | (#26320755)

They should have moved to Subversion. Git is just plain weird.

Re:I'd rather seen they moved to Subversion (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26320793)

But then there's no benefits.

Re:I'd rather seen they moved to Subversion (4, Informative)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 5 years ago | (#26320991)

There are significant advantages of Git over Subversion. RTFS for some.

Just to add insult to injury -- often, a Git checkout, which includes all history, takes up less space than a Subversion checkout for the same project, which doesn't even include recent commit log messages.

But think about this -- you're saying they should use a big, slow, central server, as a single point of failure, crippling offline development, complicating branches (especially merges), and several orders of magnitude slower for just about every operation, just so you don't have to learn a "weird" tool?

Re:I'd rather seen they moved to Subversion (5, Insightful)

timeOday (582209) | more than 5 years ago | (#26321335)

"you're saying they should use a big, slow, central server, as a single point of failure, crippling offline development..."

I am intrigued git and adoption by a major project like Perl is a big endorsement, so please don't take this as a rhetorical question: isn't centralization the heart of source code management? As a project lead, I'm reluctant to have repositories sprouting like mushrooms everywhere and everybody having their own little "trunk," and developers arguing who should have to merge with whom before each release. Is this reluctance totally unfounded, or easily solved administratively, or a valid concern with a peer-to-peer SCM model?

Re:I'd rather seen they moved to Subversion (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26321437)

Its not really an issue. In general there is a "canonical" repository. The others are just convenience, or working enviornments or whatever. In fact the canonical repository is more often than not a "bare" repository. Whereas the others will have WD's and possibly many remotes.

So you dont really worry about it, unless you are overly paranoid about people forking your project.

it depends on the size, I think (4, Informative)

Trepidity (597) | more than 5 years ago | (#26321555)

These distributed models work best if it's a large team, which potentially has more than one level of hierarchical structure.

You do typically have a canonical central repository managed by the project lead (in the Linux kernel's case, Linus's tree). But then sub-section leads might have their own canonical repository for that sub-section, and merge in their team members' changes into a stable state that they approve of before asking for those changes to get merged into the central branch. Or they might bundle up some particularly important set of changes for early merging "upstream", making sure they cleanly apply against the current central repo. That's all a nightmare to manage in SVN, which conceives of branches as something you do occasionally and keep around for a while, not as a hierarchical project-management tool.

On the other hand, if you have a relatively small or flat team, or one where the sub-sections break down really cleanly so each one can have its own central repo, it might not buy you much. I'm working on a small project with 4 people at the moment, and SVN is perfectly fine, and I can't really imagine what I'd do with a distributed version control system (I'd just use it like a centralized one, pushing everything to the one repo everyone pulls from).

Re:it depends on the size, I think (3, Informative)

n dot l (1099033) | more than 5 years ago | (#26321935)

I can't really imagine what I'd do with a distributed version control system

Like I kept repeating in my other post [slashdot.org] , you can actually use branches and commits as tools to aid your own work without affecting others or polluting the commit logs with junk "Work in progress" commits. That and you get sane merges. Both of those are huge, even if your team is just you and your imaginary friend.

Re:it depends on the size, I think (1)

oscartheduck (866357) | more than 5 years ago | (#26322119)

I use git, never have used anything else. It was just being developed when I started thinking about using CVS, but I liked the name, so I started with git.

Given that, and given that I haven't used another tool, what're you thinking of with "sane merges"? I'm asking through genuine ignorance here.

Re:I'd rather seen they moved to Subversion (3, Informative)

fafne (840092) | more than 5 years ago | (#26321635)

DVCS does not mean anti-centralized. DVCS does not introduce arguments between developers, rather ameliorating them as it's easier to try things out and becoming more knowledgeable before discussing issues. It's about how to define the build and release systems. Obviously, you need a 'head revision' or 'release branch' or whatever you want to name the code that's defined as the one version that makes up the product. Having input from different places makes no difference on the release part of the process. Developers move the changes to the release/central build version just like they would with the old model. Almost all resistance I've seen so far is something similar to 'I don't like this because I have to learn something new' obfuscated behind a bunch of misconceptions.

Re:I'd rather seen they moved to Subversion (1)

eggnet (75425) | more than 5 years ago | (#26321733)

Taking a different approach than the other responders, git has an svn gateway so good luck stopping people from using it :)

Re:I'd rather seen they moved to Subversion (3, Informative)

snaz555 (903274) | more than 5 years ago | (#26321789)

isn't centralization the heart of source code management

Not necessarily. Consider a common case:
- Project A works on a significant feature (say a new file system)
- As part of their work, they significantly restructure some related part (say how a fs ties into the kernel) and update other parts of the source to match
- Project B works on a different feature (say overhauling the interrupt thread implementation on SMP systems)
- Project B wants to update the same related parts (say how kernel modules, including file systems, tie into the kernel)
- Project A is already done, and is scheduled to get on the train before project B, so it's natural for B to integrate portions of project A and then track project A's fixes and updates to these portions up to when A integrates into the trunk

This situation is handled very cleanly by distributed systems like git and teamworks. As B selectively merges parts of A it picks up the change log. With svn when you diffpatch across from the A branch to the B branch you lose changelogs, there will be no record that these changes came from A but they'll appear independently in B. When A integrates to trunk if B simply tracks these it will appear as if B edited trunk. This is an inaccurate history. With p4 I get a headache just thinking about it.

Re:I'd rather seen they moved to Subversion (2, Informative)

snaz555 (903274) | more than 5 years ago | (#26321803)

s/is already done/is already done with the shared part/g

Re:I'd rather seen they moved to Subversion (1)

BlueCodeWarrior (638065) | more than 5 years ago | (#26321853)

Other people have answered, but I feel that Linus can explain things for himself. Linus talks about Git [youtube.com] . He discusses how it works with the kernel...even thought it's a bit long, it's pretty good as an intro to the git vs svn argument.

Re:I'd rather seen they moved to Subversion (5, Informative)

n dot l (1099033) | more than 5 years ago | (#26321869)

We use it at work and it works much better than SVN did.

Apart from everybody's local copies, we keep a repository sitting on a central server. That repo's "master" branch is our release code and, since I'm responsible for the final product, I'm responsible for this branch. Our workflow is fairly simple:

  1. Developer pulls down a copy of the master branch (this either creates a local copy or brings an existing copy up to date).
  2. Developer hacks away, creating, deleting, and merging local branches as is convenient for them.
  3. Developer finishes task.
  4. Developer pulls down an update, bringing their local master in sync with the central master.
  5. Developer git-rebases their code on the new master. What this does is it takes all of the changes they made since their code diverged from the master and applies them to the new master. Git will apply commits one at a time, pausing if it runs into non-trivial merges or anything else that needs to be dealt with by hand. This has proven to be a massive improvement over the old SVN approach of having the updates in trunk blindly dumped on top of your work as the conflicts tend to be smaller, clearer, and much more manageable. Not to mention that the developer who wrote (and understands) the code is doing the merge.
  6. Developer tests their code.
  7. If the code is bad, goto step 2. Otherwise the dev will collapse their many little "work in progress" commits into a single "feature implemented/bug fixed" commit.
  8. Developer pushes their cleaned up commit as a new branch on the central server and alerts me to its presence.
  9. I review the diff (practically a nop for trusted senior coders, for the rest, well, I'd be reviewing their stuff anyway).
  10. If I don't like it I send it back, else I merge it onto the central master (guaranteed to be a trivial merge since they did the work of rebasing onto the latest code - Git calls these a "fast-forward" and I automatically reject anything that hasn't been properly rebased) and delete their branch from the central server.
  11. Developer pulls down new master, deletes temporary local branches, rebases any other work in progress (or puts this step off, up to them, I don't give a damn as long as I get high quality patches in the end).
  12. goto 1

Note that pushing to master doesn't break anybody else, ever, until they decide they're ready to deal with integrating their patch. Nobody ever does the, "Are you gonna commit first or should I?" thing anymore. Developers that are collaborating on a patch sync via a branch on the central server, or directly to each other's machines, or via emailed patches, whatever they want to do. Git doesn't care and neither do I.

It sounds like a lot of tedious work, but Git is just stupid-fast. In the common case the whole update master, rebase, cleanup commits, push cycle takes about as long as SVN used to take to update and then scan for changes and actually commit anything. In the uncommon case where there's a non-trivial merge, the merges tend to come out a lot cleaner since Git is trying to make your changes to the new master one commit at a time, rather than dumping all of the changes in master on top of your stuff (though it can also do that, if you happen to enjoy pain).

And while I prefer the manual approval approach (which scales by appointing trusted lieutenants to take over some of the work) since it keeps me in the loop and keeps everyone else honest, there's no reason you couldn't automate it. Some projects give everyone push access, but disallow anything but fast-forward (trivial nothing-to-merge) pushes to the central server, others I've heard of have people push to a staging branch and a bot on the server grabs the code, runs the test suite, and merges it if it's good. Access is ssh-based, and there are hooks all over the place, you can set up all sorts of schemes when it comes to control of the canonical central repo.

The thing we've found is that because we've all got local repos where we can screw around as we wish without disturbing others, we're making branches and commits way more frequently than we used to. That's a massive win when we have to do merges since git-rebase will apply our changes to the latest master code one at a time which makes for a series of much smaller messes which are dealt with more quickly and reliably than what we got with SVN's "oh here, let me dump everything that happened in trunk over the last weeks on top of your code all at once, good luck!" approach (I really can't repeat this enough times - it's many many many times better than the old SVN merges). Plus the rebase/cleanup commits is a good place for people to sanity check their work rather than the old tendency to commit and hope nobody else breaks. Oh, and since we can make a mess of commits which can be fixed or deleted later without etching it into the record forever we each use git as it suits our individual coding styles.

And I know I'm forgetting stuff.

Forgive the rambling long post. I didn't sleep well last night and I'm a bit tired. But yeah. Git is way better than SVN in pretty much every respect except possibly its lack of slick Windows GUI (and anyone that calls this a no-go shouldn't be writing code, IMHO, as the command-line tools are simply excellent, even if commands don't have the most obvious names on Earth), I can't possibly stress that enough.

Or, shorter answer: (1)

Jay L (74152) | more than 5 years ago | (#26322153)

svn has one repository, and it's always central. In git, you have any number of repositories, and whether you call one "central" is an administrative question, not a technical one.

It solves the problem of "I don't want to check this into svn yet, but I want to save a checkpoint"; developers can have local repositories for coding, and you'll have one (or more) for integration and release. You can cherry-pick changes, merging any individual change at any time (or never).

And it's ridiculously fast. I never thought svn was that slow, but turns out it's dog-slow. If you remember being floored by the Amiga's blitter graphics: that sort of fast.

Re:I'd rather seen they moved to Subversion (3, Insightful)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 5 years ago | (#26322109)

Other posters have gotten the main ones, but a few points you may have missed:

First, yes, you can use it in a centralized manner. It does that much better than Subversion does. For a taste, use git-svn -- crippled, but in many ways better than vanilla subversion.

To address your actual concerns, though:

I'm reluctant to have repositories sprouting like mushrooms everywhere and everybody having their own little "trunk,"

The fact that everyone has their own "repository" as a working copy doesn't mean there have to be "repositories sprouting like mushrooms". You can do that, and it works well -- see Github -- or you can just have one "canonical" repo that everyone pushes to, or both.

Or you can have other models -- I believe Linux is hierarchical, such that various subsystems each have their own maintainers, with their own subsystem-specific repository. Some large patches, like suspend2 or the Ubuntu patches, certainly maintain their own repositories. But it's actually quite easy to send relevant changes back up the chain -- Linus can pull from whichever of those he wants, and apply them to the official tree.

In fact, that's something much more difficult to do on Subversion -- having only one person with commit access would be stifling. On the other hand, with Git, commit access can be based on trust, not on productivity.

Just as an example: When I want to make a non-trivial change to a project on Github, I just fork it. Then, when I'm satisfied with my changes, I send a pull-request back. There's no question as to which is the "official" version -- on the other hand, if my change really is a good idea, and they refuse to merge, maybe I'll just keep developing on my own, merging in their changes, and before long people are seeing me as the "official" version.

and developers arguing who should have to merge with whom before each release.

But the problem of which version is official, and who needs to merge with whom, is a social, not a technical problem. You have the exact same problems with SVN, if you use it properly -- we tried this for a bit, with everyone working on their own branch. Merging was impossible, even though there was a "real" trunk. (Or, I should say: It was possible, but expect to wait a half hour or more for SVN 1.5 to figure it out -- or expect to spend a half hour or more of your own time giving SVN 1.4 the right revision ranges.)

Then we started using git-svn, everyone working off trunk, and keeping their own private Git branches locally. This way, merging was trivial, because Git is awesome at merging. The downside is, local Git commits get turned into git-svn commits when you send them to SVN, which changes the sha, which makes it that much harder to merge any other local branches you might have -- it was definitely an upgrade to start some new projects on pure Git.

Re:I'd rather seen they moved to Subversion (4, Informative)

Lord Bitman (95493) | more than 5 years ago | (#26322147)

git makes branching and merging easy enough that the question of "where is the central line?" isn't really an issue- developers can easily work on their own branches without worrying about other branches, and you can still push your developer branch to the central repository so that the question of "Where is this change? Is it in Steve's branch? Do I need to connect to his repository?" is also not an issue- Steve's branch can easily be in the central repository, Steve just needs to push changes in, just like he'd normally need to commit changes. Git's primary difference there is that "Steve's repository" is pretty much just a robust staging area for changes.

However, if you're used to centralized version control, you may miss things switching to git:
  - Pick whether you want all or nothing in advance. You can either have "shallow" checkouts, which leave you with a crippled, broken, and useless copy that has no access to history functions, or you can have every change ever made. Once you've made this choice, you can only change your mind by cloning again. There is no way to gracefully get history as it is required.
  - This means: no partial checkouts. This is a problem if you're used to versioning large binary files, or have large files which you won't care about for anything other than auditing reasons after a certain time.
  - Which also implies: no "modules". This is a problem if you have lots of small related projects, which together make up one massive pool of code. You can have one massive project which everyone uses all of, or you can choose not to track the origin of files which you copy from one project to another. Having a "common" project shared by several others is not possible.
  - Unless you try the "submodule" support, which is a broken hack that can devour changes far too easily to trust it to end-users. And submodule support does NOT allow copies from one "submodule" to another, or to your main project. Not while retaining history, anyway.

This is really all one flaw, re-stated five times. Fix this and git will be able to replace any centralized system. Without the change, I can't recommend it to anyone who is involved in a centralized project- at least not when there is a reason for being centralized.

Git is, despite proponent's claims, great for small projects which don't actually need to talk to anyone else and don't need to interface with any other projects. If your project involves other "projects" where the line between one and another is the least bit blurry, avoid git.

Re:I'd rather seen they moved to Subversion (3, Informative)

abdulla (523920) | more than 5 years ago | (#26321511)

There are also advantages to Subversion that Linus states himself [1]. Really the only one of note is that Git isn't so great at having multiple projects in the one repository and the recommendation is to have one per repository and have a super-project that contains pointers to others - which isn't so great a solution.

[1] It was stated in relation to the layout of the KDE repository: http://git.or.cz/gitwiki/LinusTalk200705Transcript [git.or.cz]

Re:I'd rather seen they moved to Subversion (2, Insightful)

richlv (778496) | more than 5 years ago | (#26321761)

that, and exploding checkouts for all users if your repository also contains binary data like media (images, music, videos).

Re:I'd rather seen they moved to Subversion (1)

ThePhilips (752041) | more than 5 years ago | (#26322081)

Really the only one of note is that Git isn't so great at having multiple projects in the one repository [...]

That's plain taking things out of context. KDE organization was named ... stupid? ugly? ... because they in some places have repo for single directory. What is pretty much stupid and ugly.

As well, while Linus mentioned that having many projects in single repo isn't that great, he also mentioned that no practical limit was hit yet. With Linux kernel or imported whole KDE tree, Git still performed better than anything else.

Also note that the speech is quite old - it is more than 1.5 years old. Many things have changed since then.

Re:I'd rather seen they moved to Subversion (3, Informative)

grumbel (592662) | more than 5 years ago | (#26321771)

takes up less space than a Subversion checkout for the same project

Only if you actually *want* the whole project. If on the other side you just want a single file or subdirectory, say in a large gigabyte size repo with graphics, textures and stuff, you have kind of a problem with git. A git clone always downloads the whole thing, svn on the other side allows you do download just what you want, so the download with SVN can easily become a few orders of magnitude smaller then with git.

git could really use a way to do shallow clones so that only those pieces get downloaded that are actually needed, git-clone --depth is a start, but not quite enough.

Re:I'd rather seen they moved to Subversion (1)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 5 years ago | (#26322161)

Only if you actually *want* the whole project. If on the other side you just want a single file or subdirectory, say in a large gigabyte size repo with graphics, textures and stuff, you have kind of a problem with git.

Yes, Git really isn't great for large, binary data.

Other than that, if you're really only wanting a subdirectory of a project most of the time, maybe it's a good idea to split that subdirectory out into its own project?

But I was just pointing out how ridiculous it is that in repositories full of text, an SVN checkout -- which barely contains any metadata at all, or at least, insists on going to the server for just about anything -- can be as big or bigger than a Git checkout, which contains every version, ever. And even that initial git-clone is likely to be faster, if you have the bandwidth for it -- there seem to be far fewer blocking roundtrips, and far less CPU needed.

The other point of note is that Git seems to have a much lighter, faster wire protocol than SVN. So, if it gets really bad, and your bandwidth really makes it that impractical to do the initial checkout, it might be a valid option to find someone who has a full checkout and have them burn you a DVD. After that, it's going to be less bandwidth to stay up to date, and certainly less to work offline.

Re:I'd rather seen they moved to Subversion (1)

ThePhilips (752041) | more than 5 years ago | (#26322189)

If on the other side you just want a single file or subdirectory, say in a large gigabyte size repo with graphics, textures and stuff, you have kind of a problem with git.

As designed. Git is "Source Code Management" system. Please note the magic "Source Code" words.

You shouldn't put in the things you can't diff.

And believe me - you do not want to put such stuff into SVN either. I do not think it was optimized to handle huge binary files. Many commercial systems do optimize blob handing, but believe me, performance anyway degrades quickly so much that you would avoid using the repo at all costs.

P.S. Actually I had in experience in past with SVN and blobs. In one project we had single repo for everything: GUI apps, system libraries and home-brew custom OS (what I worked with). In some cases we had to checkout everything and during the process there was one notable file: Visio diagram (~5MB) for GUI application workflow. I wasn't checking how much revisions the diagram had, yet its checkout was taking >30 seconds. At first I thought that svn client/server hanged. Asked my friend whether svn server is alive and by the time he tested svn server, my svn client came back to life.

Re:I'd rather seen they moved to Subversion (1)

lordSaurontheGreat (898628) | more than 5 years ago | (#26322331)

When it comes to learning a "weird" tool, Perl developers are the easiest sell you'll find. Most of them are already command-line literate, and already familiar with source-control doctrine. They're probably thankful they don't have to hunt down annoying proprietary Perforce binaries to do their job anymore.

Git would be inappropriate in situations where you have developers that are either unwilling or incapable of learning how to use the command line and how to manage source control. In that kind of situation, something with a large array of graphical tools, such as Subversion, would be beneficial.

Mods on crack (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26320997)

There's more insight in a lolcat picture than there is in this comment.

Re:I'd rather seen they moved to Subversion (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26321083)

I agree. I think you have to understand how Git works at a lower level in order to use it. If you've only got the high level conceptual view, good luck.
Slap a Perforce-like CLI on top of Git and I'll be all over it.

Re:I'd rather seen they moved to Subversion (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26321871)

I think you have to understand how Git works at a lower level in order to use it.

Which would be a complete failure of the tool, if it were true.

Having had a quick look over the tutorial, I'm not sure that it is true though.

Re:I'd rather seen they moved to Subversion (1)

kwabbles (259554) | more than 5 years ago | (#26321167)

Whatever. Tim the Enchanter was a mangy scotch git, and he wasn't weird - was he?

Re:I'd rather seen they moved to Subversion (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26321513)

What an eccentric performance

Re:I'd rather seen they moved to Subversion (1)

AlecC (512609) | more than 5 years ago | (#26321507)

Subversion and git are not really comparable. Subversion is centralised, based on a single server for the repository, and therefore suitable for corporate use. git is decentralised and distributed and therefore more suitable for OSS with distributed developers and no or weak hierarchy, The competitors to git would be Bazaar and Mercurial.

Somebody in my company checked out all three and said that git was the most powerful, but also the most complex, hence a steep learning curve, and had poor Windows support. But presumably Perl developers are not frightened of complex software and unlikely to be using Windows as a primary platform, so git might well be appropriate for them. Bazaar was complemented for being Subversion like and Windows friendly (relevant to my company).

Re:I'd rather seen they moved to Subversion (1)

fafne (840092) | more than 5 years ago | (#26321593)

There's nothing that suggests that centralized version control and corporate go hand in hand. A common misconception if you ask me, using a DVCS in every day work in a large corporate environment.... or ask sun for that matter. It's absolutely possible to have central release versions with DVCS, it's all about work flow practices.

This must be the sign (3, Funny)

berend botje (1401731) | more than 5 years ago | (#26320771)

This must be the sign. Any day now The Announcement will come: "Perl Six is Ready!".

And there will be much rejoicing!

Seriously, I can't wait!

Re:This must be the sign (1)

winkydink (650484) | more than 5 years ago | (#26320903)

This must be the sign. Any day now The Announcement will come: "Perl Six is Ready!".

And there will be much rejoicing!

Seriously, I can't wait!

Right after majordomo 2.

Re:This must be the sign (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26321095)

It's coming with the Hurd kernel. Oh yes, that means never. No one cares about PERL anymore. Apart from a few crusty admins that think they can be developers.

Re:This must be the sign (2, Funny)

CarpetShark (865376) | more than 5 years ago | (#26321101)

Actually, this is an intermediate step. They now know how to tag perl 6, if/when it does arrive.

Darcs vs. Git (1)

jbolden (176878) | more than 5 years ago | (#26320783)

I can understand the advantage of using distributed version control. But given all the Haskell people involved (who came in via Pugs) I'm surprised they went with Git vs. Darcs.

Does anyone know if speed is as large of an issue as it is for Linux kernel or was there another reason?

Re:Darcs vs. Git (4, Insightful)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 5 years ago | (#26321003)

I would guess it's ubiquity and featureset.

Git is built of a patchwork of C and scripts, meaning it's something Perl6 could be a part of someday, and it's also something that's going to be quite familiar to all Perl developers, not just the Pugs guys.

And, Git seems to be quickly becoming the Subversion of DVCS -- fast, open source, everyone has it, everyone knows it, and the alternatives really don't have much compelling to offer.

Re:Darcs vs. Git (2, Interesting)

r7 (409657) | more than 5 years ago | (#26321581)

the alternatives really don't have much compelling to offer

This is what I have been wondering about. One of the alternatives, Mercurial, does seem to be a compelling alternative to GIT. Would love to hear from anyone who has used both, especially WRT migrations from CVS and integration with Trac. We've been leaning towards Mercurial as it is mostly written in Python (vs C), implements much the same functionality in 1/3rd as many lines of code (according to http://www.infoq.com/articles/dvcs-guide [infoq.com] ), and is used by Mozilla, Sun, etc.

These comparisons matter now, but may not be so relevant in the future if either Git or Mercurial garners substantially more mindshare than the other. We would, ideally, like to stay ahead of the trends...

Re:Darcs vs. Git (2, Interesting)

n dot l (1099033) | more than 5 years ago | (#26322013)

When I was considering migrating from SVN to Git I checked out Hg as well since people were making a big deal bout it having a sane Windows UI and all that jazz (and we do a bunch of work on Windows at work). I admit I didn't do a very deep comparison, so maybe I'm selling Hg waaay short here, but Git impressed me and Hg didn't - Hg fans, correct me if I'm being ignorant. The things that stood out in my mind are:

  • Git was noticeably faster for almost everything.
  • Git had more options for rewriting history.
  • Git's SHA-hash-as-identifier feature is just plain sexy, especially since they can't ever get out of sync as Hg's revision numbers can.

In Hg's favor, Git has no (useful) GUI, but it didn't take long to learn the five or six commands I actually use regularly, and Git's documentation is very good so that was kind of a moot point.

Re:Darcs vs. Git (1)

doom (14564) | more than 5 years ago | (#26322329)

Git's SHA-hash-as-identifier feature is just plain sexy, especially since they can't ever get out of sync as Hg's revision numbers can.

Monotone is built around that idea, and existed before git.

The real reason we're all migrating to using git is that it was endorsed by a celebrity.

It may seem like a silly reason, but it beats wading through the hand-waving and screaming surrounding yet another technical religious war.

Re:Darcs vs. Git (3, Informative)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 5 years ago | (#26322263)

The main things I like about git are its raw speed, its ubiquity (everyone and their dog has a git tutorial), and how simple its primitives are.

That is: I actually started with bzr, and I found that while there were some things that were much easier (bzr uncommit comes to mind), it's a lot easier to actually understand Git under the hood, in case I need to do some deep surgery on some history, say.

Then, too, there just seem to be more tools available -- gitk, git-cherry-pick, even git-stash, are things I don't remember from bzr or hg, but it's been awhile.

I see the point about Python, and I'm absolutely with you there. The reason it's not an issue is, I can't ever remember having to dig into Git source -- the most I might have to do is write a shell-script frontend to some of the tools already there. It's actually somewhat UNIX-y that way -- when was the last time you had to dig into the source of fileutils?

What's more, there are language bindings -- personally, I've used grit in Ruby. Easier than trying to talk to SVN with its XML output.

The main advantage of bzr, by the way, is its handling of directories -- it actually records renames. Git tries to detect them, but it works at the level of file contents, not directory structure -- so, for example, it'll detect if you move a function from one file to another, but it might have trouble if you rename a directory. For example:

mv a b
mkdir a

And, in another branch:

touch a/c

When they merge, where should c go? Git would probably put it in a, since the file's name is 'a/c'. Bzr would probably put it in b, since a was renamed to b, unless the same rename somehow made it into that other branch.

There is another reason I didn't mention -- I use Ruby. I believe Ruby itself is done on SVN, but it seems that every Ruby project ever has moved from SVN to Git, and most of them to Github. And it's just awesome to work with Github projects.

Re:Darcs vs. Git (5, Interesting)

Johnny Loves Linux (1147635) | more than 5 years ago | (#26321031)

I can understand the advantage of using distributed version control. But given all the Haskell people involved (who came in via Pugs) I'm surprised they went with Git vs. Darcs.

Does anyone know if speed is as large of an issue as it is for Linux kernel or was there another reason?

Actually, you might not know this, but the Haskell folks already moved over to git from darcs a while ago. They were having scalability issues and did a 6 month survey to determine which distributed version control they should go with and determined that git was the best of the breed. Here are the links:

  1. Announcement: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.glasgow.user/14819 [gmane.org] [gmane.org]
  2. Comparisons: http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/DarcsEvaluation [haskell.org] [haskell.org]

Re:Darcs vs. Git (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26321217)

Actually, you might not know this, but the Haskell folks already moved over to git from darcs a while ago.

There's no unified group called "the Haskell folks", any more than there is "the C folks". The GHC team decided to switch to git, but there are still plenty of Haskell users who like darcs.

Re:Darcs vs. Git (1)

jbolden (176878) | more than 5 years ago | (#26321691)

Wow that is interesting, thank you. For GHC to be moving away from Darcs is a serious blow. Linux had the same issues so that seems to mean that the GHC feature set isn't good enough for large applications. But the real advantages of distribution happen with large applications.

Excellent information!

In other news (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26320787)

Some perl users use emacs, others use vi.

Slow news day, eh?

But... is Perl now historical only? (3, Insightful)

Slartibartfast (3395) | more than 5 years ago | (#26320789)

I mean, really. Git's good -- git's even really good -- but what does it matter if Perl 6.x is gonna take longer than Duke Nukem Forever to come out? It's the clear and obvious winner of the OSS vaporware award. [And, yeah, I'm aware that there are beta releases -- or, at least, pre-releases -- but "where's the beef" already?] I'm not a big fan of ESR, but I have to admit "release early and release often" is something I happen to agree with.

$.02

Re:But... is Perl now historical only? (5, Insightful)

berend botje (1401731) | more than 5 years ago | (#26320797)

I take it you have volunteered to help finish P6?

Re:But... is Perl now historical only? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26320911)

maybe he is a java developer

Re:But... is Perl now historical only? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26321711)

I take it you have volunteered to help finish P6?

Perhaps you've read Mythical Man Month?

Re:But... is Perl now historical only? (1)

berend botje (1401731) | more than 5 years ago | (#26322227)

If you are referring to the old maxim that adding more developers won't speed up the project but actually delay it, I would like you to reflect on the fact that removing too many developers won't get the project done either.

There are too few developers working on Perl 6, adding a few would actually speed it up. There is a lot of work to be done, and people are spread too thin.

Re:But... is Perl now historical only? (1)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 5 years ago | (#26321015)

I mean, really. Git's good -- git's even really good -- but what does it matter if Perl 6.x is gonna take longer than Duke Nukem Forever to come out?

Maybe Git will help it come out sooner. I know I'd much sooner contribute if I could just fork the project on Github, as opposed to sending patches against a Perforce repository.

And be careful with the DNF jokes. We said the same about Vista, and look what happened.

I'm not a big fan of ESR, but I have to admit "release early and release often" is something I happen to agree with.

Then you obviously missed that point. "Release early and often" is about making the code available, and there are beta/prereleases available for Perl6, so they've got that covered.

It absolutely should not apply to final versions. Those should be released when it's done, not before. For a good example of what happens when people release something just to release it, look at KDE4.

Re:But... is Perl now historical only? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26321435)

github? What's the point of a decentralized VCS if you're just going to centralize it?

Re:But... is Perl now historical only? (1)

BlueCodeWarrior (638065) | more than 5 years ago | (#26321917)

The release still has to come from somewhere. The idea is that you let GitHub become the repo where everyone starts from. Only the lead maintainer (or whoever) actually has access. He only merges that repo with his. He only merges his repo with the ones of the leads for each major section of the project. They only merge changes with people who are working on their section...etc. Think pyramid. This is how Linux is handled.

Re:But... is Perl now historical only? (1)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 5 years ago | (#26322293)

The development is still decentralized. And Github makes it that much easier to handle the social aspects -- it's like a social network of software development.

Aside from that, it's not really centralized. In a social sense, it's one click on Github to fork it, or you can manually fork it and push it to another service. In a technical sense, everyone's checkout is also a full repository/backup, so if Github ever implodes, there will likely be at least one backup for every active project on there.

Don't get me wrong, I plan to roll my own anyway. But even then, I see no reason not to also mirror it on Github, since it's so trivial to maintain multiple repositories.

Re:But... is Perl now historical only? (1)

tabrisnet (722816) | more than 5 years ago | (#26321925)

What people often forget however is that part of 'release early, release often' is 'release something useful'.

If something is perpetually in [true] beta, and doesn't appear to do anything useful yet (can I start coding my perl6 apps yet? sure. I can, but the specific details of the language are still in flux and MAJOR bugs are still being fixed, so I cannot write things in perl6 and rely on them to work).

I'm also still waiting for perl5 to be written for parrot. Then I can start mixing and matching my perl6 vs perl5 code and migrate an old perl5 project over.

A similar problem is that although I can write things for Perl6 (pugs or parrot) I cannot expect other people to have pugs or parrot in their distro, and thus be able to use them.

I would have the same problem writing my apps for perl5.10, as perl 5.8 is still in CentOS 4 and CentOS 5 (and let's not forget Debian stable [etch] or SuSE Linux Enterprise Server 10).

Re:But... is Perl now historical only? (1)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 5 years ago | (#26322327)

I'm also still waiting for perl5 to be written for parrot.

Ponie is written. I'm guessing it's not complete.

A similar problem is that although I can write things for Perl6 (pugs or parrot) I cannot expect other people to have pugs or parrot in their distro, and thus be able to use them.

Coming from Perl, that is a problem. But that's also true of Ruby, and until recently, Python. As it is, parrot is available in Ubuntu, and you don't need pugs to run a bitecode-compiled Parrot app -- I believe pugs can compile it, though. And I don't see that as a huge problem -- after all, if you were writing a Perl5 app, and doing it right, you would be relying on tons of CPAN modules too.

Re: Perl not historical only (4, Insightful)

Dystopian Rebel (714995) | more than 5 years ago | (#26321029)

Fixed the subject line for you.

Last year, I completed two important Perl-based projects for my employer. I also use Perl at least once a week to run analyses of my Web server logs. I prototype Web applications in Perl and often just put the prototype into production because it works well. I'm still using Perl that I wrote over 10 years ago, with NO changes, on several OSs. And I use Ubuntu Debian, of which Perl is an integral component.

Perl is great. If I want what it doesn't have, I use a different language. But when I want regular expressions, CPAN, quick and secure CGI, analysis of large data sets and general parsing, easy database integration, and efficient portability from server all the way down to embedded systems, Perl is the first language I consider. Ruby might be ready for the real world one day. And Python is good for other things, but it is not a replacement for Perl.

Re:But... is Perl now historical only? (1)

WWWWolf (2428) | more than 5 years ago | (#26321267)

When it's released, Perl 6 is going to be sweet and innovative and a real contender when compared to Ruby.

Meanwhile, Perl 5 isn't going anywhere just yet, and it still has its place in the toolbox. I personally use it for problems that are too complex to be implemented as shell scripts but not complex enough to warrant a nice object-oriented approach (that'd be Ruby's turf) or need GUIs and somewhat effortless non-*nix deployment (for that, there's always Java). Perl 5 is still very nice if you want some powerful text processing done. for example.

Re:But... is Perl now historical only? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26321617)

"I mean, really. Git's good -- git's even really good -- but what does it matter if Perl 6.x is gonna take longer than Duke Nukem Forever to come out? "

I haven't been modded troll in a long time, but here we go:

Perhaps instead of spending a year futzing around with source repositories (and who wants to bet it was really more like 1.5 - 2 years?), maybe they should focus on developing Perl 6? Perhaps this was something done by bored Perl sys admins with nothing to do and not core Perl developers (though it's hard to imagine them not being affected by a source code migration).

Re:But... is Perl now historical only? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26321681)

Perhaps instead of spending a year futzing around with source repositories (and who wants to bet it was really more like 1.5 - 2 years?), maybe they should focus on developing Perl 6? Perhaps this was something done by bored Perl sys admins with nothing to do and not core Perl developers (though it's hard to imagine them not being affected by a source code migration).

Perhaps you have absolutely zero knowledge about how Perl is developed?

Re:But... is Perl now historical only? (2, Informative)

jbolden (176878) | more than 5 years ago | (#26321707)

If you just want Perl6 you can use it today with Pugs. That is the "release often" and it finished.

If you want a real release candidate the problem is Parrot. Perl6 attempted some very complex stuff with the runtime, that so far has been challenging to implement. There is no guarantee these problems will get solved.

Re:But... is Perl now historical only? (3, Informative)

thanasakis (225405) | more than 5 years ago | (#26321717)

You can use Perl 6 right now if you want. It is available, just not rated for production yet. I can understand that probably not many folks will want to use it for real world purposes, but this is pretty far from at least my definition of vapor.

Re:But... is Perl now historical only? (1)

Leynos (172919) | more than 5 years ago | (#26321931)

Duke Nukem Forever is written in Perl 6. There's your answer.

Re:But... is Perl now historical only? (2, Interesting)

jadavis (473492) | more than 5 years ago | (#26321957)

"release early and release often" is something I happen to agree with

Really? What about other design projects, like building a bridge? Should they release early and say "tell us if it collapses, and we'll fix the design"?

With all this talk about agile programming -- in which you just keep adjusting things until someone says "good enough for me" -- sometimes people forget that design is important, too. Agile development is certainly a valuable tool for many kinds of development projects. But it is not the answer to everything. Design is still required.

The reason? If perl6 did something wrong, you might have no idea that it's wrong, and use the feature. Now it will probably lead you down a bad path somehow, and even if you don't care, they have to support it. Just like if you start driving on a bridge -- everything seems great to you, and once you are on the bridge you expect it to not fall down.

Some things you design carefully, like interfaces that will need to be supported for a long time, languages, anything that you rely on to hold or process important data, performance-critical algorithms, etc. In other words, any kind of platform needs a lot of design work.

Re:But... is Perl now historical only? (1)

thue (121682) | more than 5 years ago | (#26322111)

but what does it matter if Perl 6.x is gonna take longer than Duke Nukem Forever to come out?

For the curious, Duke Nukem Forever was announced April 28, 1997, which Perl 6 was announced 19 July 2000.

I will be interesting to see which one will finish first :).

Of course there is also GNU Hurd [wikipedia.org] , which began development in 1990 and is still not production ready...

what? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26320813)

there's still Perl????

Perl is a (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26320937)

write only language. Python is better.

Can't get there from here (4, Funny)

djupedal (584558) | more than 5 years ago | (#26320961)

$ git clone git://perl5.git.perl.org/perl.git

-bash: git: command not found

Re:Can't get there from here (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26321049)

Install git? $ sudo aptitude install git-core

Re:Can't get there from here (1)

PReDiToR (687141) | more than 5 years ago | (#26321967)

Maybe you forgot to emerge it?

~ $ eix dev-util/git
* dev-util/git
Available versions: 1.5.1.6 1.5.3.7-r1 ~1.5.3.8 1.5.4.5 ~1.5.5.3 ~1.5.5.3-r1 ~1.5.5.4 ~1.5.6.1 ~1.5.6.2 ~1.5.6.3 1.5.6.4 ~1.5.6.5 ~1.6.0 ~1.6.0.1 ~1.6.0.2 ~1.6.0.3 ~1.6.0.4 ~1.6.0.4-r1 ~1.6.0.4-r2 1.6.0.6 {bash-completion cgi curl cvs doc elibc_uclibc emacs gtk iconv mozsha1 perl ppcsha1 subversion threads tk vim-syntax webdav xinetd}
Homepage: http://git.or.cz/ [git.or.cz]
Description: GIT - the stupid content tracker, the revision control system heavily used by the Linux kernel team

Will it still be stupid now that Perl uses it I wonder?

How about gitting CPAN? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26321041)

I propose using Git for CPAN too.
Can be cool - if you want to make changes to a module that is not yours, you should be able to branch it, make the modification, and offer the branch to the original author.

and it can be better - operate against your personal branch of CPAN.

Summary wording lifted from Ars article? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26321289)

The wording in this summary post looks like it was taken straight from this Ars Technica article [arstechnica.com] .
Ars:

The git repository incorporates historic snapshot releases and patch sets, which is frankly both cool and historically pleasing. Some of the patch sets were apparently recovered from old hard drives, notching up the geek satisfaction factor even more.

look familiar?

git-gc increases disk usage for Perl (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26321295)

A checked out git tree of Perl using git-clone is 151MB. If you run git-gc --aggressive, it increases to 225MB.

Has anyone seen this behavior before? All of the projects that I track either decrease in size or remain the same. I've never seen one jump up in size after telling the GC to run.

I'm using git 1.5.6.5.

Re:git-gc increases disk usage for Perl (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26321763)

If the original perl git packing was done aggressively (which it definitely has been done), then doing an untuned repack can only make it worse.

IOW, the original perl git pack (that you got by cloning a well-packed repository) was probably done with a much larger search window for good delta candidates, and quite likely with a deeper delta chain than the default too. When you did your own aggressive repack, you undid all of that.

End result: normal developers should likely never use "git gc --aggressive". It's for the maintainer, who can also tune the various knobs, and who probably has a beefy machine that can afford to go the extra mile of using lots of CPU time to find an "optimal" pack.

Re:git-gc increases disk usage for Perl (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26321777)

the repo on the server is likely packed with high --window and --depth flags, your --aggressive repacks that with 10 and 50 (iirc) respectively which will make it much bigger.

This story was a surprise to me (5, Interesting)

qazwart (261667) | more than 5 years ago | (#26321801)

My first response was "Do they still develop Perl?"

When I first started with Perl 3.0 many, many years ago, I fell in love with the language. It was flexible, powerful, and could do all sorts of amazing things. Version 5.0 brought in objects, but the way they worked was a little kinked. Defining classes in Perl is not easy, and I always have to go back to the manpage to make sure I've got all the incantations. Many times, I simply use object oriented structures and forgo the object definitions.

Perl 6 was suppose to fix everything. It would improve the way class definitions worked. Perl 6 would be a better object oriented language while still allowing you to hack out quick scripts like you would in shell script.

Well, Perl 6 was announced almost a decade ago, and it still isn't released. Meanwhile, Python has become the defacto scripting language for the OSS world. Even I, a Perl fanatic whom makes most Mac fanatics look mellow have to admit that, and learn Python. I hate Python. It's use of indents for flow control is a throwback to Fortran. Its lack of regular expressions in the string object (you have to import a special "re" object) makes it maddening. Why o' why does Python use "pop" for arrays, but not "push"? What were the designers on when they decided "exists" is not a member function of hashes -- excuse me -- dictionaries and arrays? Why this syntactic distortion of over 50 years of computer programming overturned?

But, I am now a good Python developer writing all of my stuff in Python. I am use to the cryptic error messages that don't really explain the problem (after all, Python has only been around for a bit over a decade). I am use to the fact that basic structures of the language change from implementation to implementation. I even like the fact that "numbers" are divided into multiple types although you really can't declare a number to be a specific type. It does allow you to experience the fun of your division suddenly not working because it is INTEGER division. (And, of course, Python 3.0 will change this very basic part of implementation and break everyone's Python script!)

Perl could have been the language of the web. After all, even Perl has fewer syntactic quirks than PHP, but it is PHP that is the glue behind server side webpages. While the Perl gurus were redesigning Perl, PHP got incorporated into an Apache module and added the syntactic sugar needed to run sessions and keep variables between PHP scripts.

So, Perl, the glue that use to keep the Internet flowing has become a niche language. Almost all of the younger developers I know never bother to learn it, and fewer and fewer jobs are interested in it. It is Python that everyone wants. It is PHP that runs the message boards and CMS pages. Perl is simply no longer in the picture.

Every few years, something I've learned becomes obsolete. It's the field. One time, I knew how to setup a UUCP network. One time, I could setup a Gopher site. I also learned all the quirks of HTML 3.2 and had to lose that to learn CSS. I use to know C shell programming, and of course I was a C developer and an expert in the curses library. I've usually gave up these technologies without too many problems.

Perl is different. I've been a Perl developer for over a decade. I've always loved the language, and I've solved many, many issues with it. One place where I worked was a .NET development shop when they suddenly realized that some major component of their software couldn't retrieve the information from the network. It would take weeks to fix! I wrote a Perl script in four hours that took care of the problem.

Another place I worked had damage in a customer's database. They had everyone in the company searching for problems and re-inputing the information by hand into a clean database. A Perl script I wrote in a couple of hours did the job. Perl made me the expert. I was the wunderkind. Perl allowed me to do the impossible. It was quick, hackish, yet could also be used to build powerful programs. It replaced shell scripts and C backends. It was ubiquitous. All *nix releases had Perl even if they didn't have any other development tools. CPAN made it easy to download needed modules. There were even Windows and VAX versions of Perl.

All that is quickly disappearing. If Perl 6 ever does appear, it will be too late. Why bother to learn the differences between Perl 5 and Perl 6 when you can go ahead and learn Python or Ruby? Why bother rewriting your scripts from Perl 5 to Perl 6? Why not simply rewrite them in Python and be done with it. I am bitter and disappointed. Perl was an amazing language, but it simply never kept up with the rest of the OSS world. The grand rewrite has proven to be a terrible mistake.

Re:This story was a surprise to me (2, Insightful)

Eravnrekaree (467752) | more than 5 years ago | (#26322297)

I have used perl extensively adn one thing its OO is not is "complex". Bless is very easy to use, its a very simple model? It couldnt be easier.

As far as rewriting your existing scripts for perl 6, i wouldnt do this. Use Perl 6 for new projects, use Perl 5 for old ones.

Perl 5 remains a good quality platform for development so do not let the situation with perl 6 discourage you from using perl 5. Perl 5 is still a great development platform and is better than python and ruby in many ways.

Perl 5 development does continue and you notice they do make releases very often to make Perl 5 better. I dont really quite understand that one would allow the delay with Perl 6 cause them to stop using Perl 5 when Perl 5 is indeed a very capable language.

Perl 5 can also embed into Apache and has been able to do so for a long, long time so there is no excuse to not use it as an embeddable in web pages like PHP.

I do think a mistake with Perl 6 was not focusing more on the compiler first, making Perl 5 the first target of the Perl 6 compiler, so that more drawn out VM work wouldnt slow down Perl 6 development. . In perl 6 a from scratch rewrite was chosen. This may have been an important choice depending on the extendability of the Perl 5 systems. I have not taken a look at Perl 5 much so I cannot comment if the system is extendable or was worth expanding and extending. It is a good idea to keep the compiler parts seperate from the interpretor and from what I have heard Perl had some issues in this area.

Perl 5 will continue to be avialable for use of course, and I expect a bridge to exist between Perl 5 and Perl 6 to allow them to interoperate. There is so much XS code out there that Perl 6 calling the perl 5 VM to run modules is going to have to be a part of the the system.

Re:This story was a surprise to me (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26322305)

Perl 5 OO is not hard man. A class is a package (module). An object is a bless'd reference. You create functions in the package that do operations on the object(s) in the class. That's it, basically. You can use whatever variable types you want to store class data. Hashrefs are common and easy to deal with, and pretty damn transparent so you can see what's going on under the hood of the OO stuff if you really want to (nice for educational purposes). But really isn't not hard. It's much easier to understand than Java or other OO implementations that try to hide everything and will assault you with a shotgun if you enter their living room [ that's a reference to Perl Programming OO chapter btw ;-) ]

Git momentum (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26321837)

I don't know the details, but is the following correct?

Linus Torvalds, the creator of Linux, gets dissatisfied with the version control situation and so all by himself he simply sits down and cranks out a new one that has enough advantages to displace the prevailing standards? Is that really right?

Re:Git momentum (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26321987)

Yes

Re:Git momentum (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26322005)

I don't know the details, but is the following correct?

Linus Torvalds, the creator of Linux, gets dissatisfied with the version control situation and so all by himself he simply sits down and cranks out a new one that has enough advantages to displace the prevailing standards? Is that really right?

Lots of disadvantages. It has momentum from wankers that don't understand that forking is expensive no matter how nice your merge support is, and distributed version control was already available.

Re:Git momentum (1)

Wonko the Sane (25252) | more than 5 years ago | (#26322023)

I don't know the details, but is the following correct?
  Linus Torvalds, the creator of Linux, gets dissatisfied with the version control situation and so all by himself he simply sits down and cranks out a new one that has enough advantages to displace the prevailing standards? Is that really right?

Basically, yes [youtube.com] .

Confusing... (1)

Elsan (914644) | more than 5 years ago | (#26322281)

Didn't anybody read the summary before it was posted? It should read "The Perl Foundation has announced they have switched their version control systems to git."

Tortoise ? (1)

dargaud (518470) | more than 5 years ago | (#26322335)

So, hmmm, is there a TortoiseGit project for us lazy Windows users ? Which reminds me, is there a GUI for linux equivalent to TortoiseSVN ?
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