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Black Holes Lead Galaxy Growth

kdawson posted more than 5 years ago | from the why-did-the-galaxy-cross-the-road dept.

Space 50

The AAS meeting in San Diego is producing lots of news on the astronomy front. Studying galaxies that were forming in the universe's first billion years, astronomers have solved a longstanding cosmic chicken-and-egg problem: which forms first, galaxies or the black holes at their cores? "'We finally have been able to measure black-hole and bulge masses in several galaxies seen as they were in the first billion years after the Big Bang, and the evidence suggests that the constant ratio seen nearby may not hold in the early Universe. The black holes in these young galaxies are much more massive compared to the bulges than those seen in the nearby Universe,"' said Fabian Walter of the Max-Planck Institute for Radioastronomy in Germany. 'The implication is that the black holes started growing first.'"

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I cant believe.. (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26352375)

People keep getting sucked in to these stories.

I STILL cant believe.. (-1, Offtopic)

PrescriptionWarning (932687) | more than 5 years ago | (#26352421)

it's not butter.

Re:I cant believe.. (3, Funny)

gandhi_2 (1108023) | more than 5 years ago | (#26352477)

bong!

but seriously, it's nice to hear some good economic news.

Re:I cant believe.. (1)

mkiwi (585287) | more than 5 years ago | (#26352695)

On the contrary, they revolve around them.

The AAS is not the AAAS (3, Informative)

Shag (3737) | more than 5 years ago | (#26352507)

The American Astronomical Society (AAS) is not the same thing as the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS). This conference is astronomy-specific.

Re:The AAS is not the AAAS (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26352789)

Yeah. That's what SHE said...

Re:The AAS is not the AAAS (1)

corrie (111769) | more than 5 years ago | (#26353369)

Please report this infraction to the AAAAA - American Association for Acronym Abuse Anonymous

Re:The AAS is not the AAAS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26353699)

"Lucky I'm a member of the Austro-Afro-Antarctico-Amer-Asian Auto Association. Hello, Septuple-A?"
  -Amy Wong

Re:The AAS is not the AAAS (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26353747)

It's also in Long Beach this year, not San Diego, but I guess we know better than to expect much from Slashdot science stories.

Re:The AAS is not the AAAS (2, Funny)

Shag (3737) | more than 5 years ago | (#26353911)

D'oh, I should have caught the location too - I've got enough colleagues and co-collaborators there, presenting posters, papers, booths, whatever.

I, of course, have been left behind to run things in their absence, thus protecting audiences from exposure to my idiocy. ;)

Re:The AAS is not the AAAS (1)

rachit (163465) | more than 5 years ago | (#26355263)

The American Astronomical Society (AAS) is not the same thing as the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS).

Are you sure its not the American Science Society?

Re:The AAS is not the AAAS (1)

BigBlueOx (1201587) | more than 5 years ago | (#26357279)

Splinter!

It's true (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26352607)

I, and everyone in my LUG, can confirm that goatse's black hole lead to some major woody growth.

Einstein vs Hawking regarding blackholes (-1, Offtopic)

FathomIT (464334) | more than 5 years ago | (#26352645)

Einstein vs Hawking CERN LHC blackhole warning [youtube.com]

I hope Einstein was wrong about black holes, before CERN lights back up.

Hey, foxy chick galaxies... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26352721)

Come here to nearby universe and behold our massive bulges!

bulgy? (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26352781)

The early universe is so bulgy, it's like a moose

Re:bulgy? (1)

SpaceLifeForm (228190) | more than 5 years ago | (#26354101)

You betcha!

Tag Abuse (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26352863)

I won't repeat what exactly is being tagged, but there is some major tag abuse happening on this article. Then again, since I'm AC, the niggerbitmypenisoff and !niggerbitmpenisoff tags are the ones I'm talking about. wtf?

What did they really find? (4, Funny)

FlightlessParrot (1217192) | more than 5 years ago | (#26352869)

>We finally have been able to measure black-hole >and bulge masses in several galaxies seen as they >were in the first billion years after the Big Bang

Galaxy cameltoe.

Re:What did they really find? (1)

DavoMan (759653) | more than 5 years ago | (#26355379)

Genius

Am I the only one that thinks that.... (1)

SIR_Taco (467460) | more than 5 years ago | (#26353087)

maybe, just maybe, when a blackhole 'consumes' enough matter that it then explodes and creating an expanding universe and a much smaller blackhole? The cycle would then continue.
The blackhole grows by 'consuming' more matter until it reaches a critical mass... rinse.. repeat.

Certainly out of my field of science expertise, but I always thought it would be a neat theory.

Re:Am I the only one that thinks that.... (2, Interesting)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 5 years ago | (#26353229)

It's cooler than that. Hawking radiation is literally the creation of matter from space. Virtual particles form on the event horizon of a black hole in pairs. One of them goes into the black hole, the other one doesn't.

Re:Am I the only one that thinks that.... (4, Interesting)

maugle (1369813) | more than 5 years ago | (#26353367)

Even cooler/stranger, the virtual particle that goes into the black hole effectively has negative energy, so the black hole loses mass each time it consumes one.

Sadly, I'll have to dispel that "black hole consumes enough matter and then explodes" theory. For something (like a particle in that sort of explosion) to escape a black hole, it would have to travel faster than light. Accelerating a particle to/above the speed of light requires an infinite amount of energy, so there simply isn't enough energy in the black hole (or the universe) to make the black hole explode.

There are theories that within each black hole is a universe all to itself, but even if it's true we'd never be able to observe it.

Re:Am I the only one that thinks that.... (1)

Fluffeh (1273756) | more than 5 years ago | (#26354325)

There are theories that within each black hole is a universe all to itself, but even if it's true we'd never be able to observe it.

OMG! Th4ts only b3cause you arnt c00l en0ugh to go INTO a black hole. Go w4tch h4ck3rs and st4rgat3 a few m0re time and l34rn!

*cough* *spit*

I can't understand how typing like that comes second nature to some people. Makes me feel dirty just trying. Anyhow, that's my bit of humor for the day.

Re:Am I the only one that thinks that.... (3, Funny)

Thanshin (1188877) | more than 5 years ago | (#26354881)

There are theories that within each black hole is a universe all to itself, but even if it's true we'd never be able to observe it.

"Never" doesn't usually work well in science.

When you aproach the parts we've not really understood yet, it's advised to use expressions like "probably", "As far as we know", "educated guess", "whatever", "tiny little strings..."

It is possible to escape a black hole (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26356559)

Contrary to what you say, it actually is possible to escape a black hole! If you have a rocket engine and enough fuel you could use a constant force to counteract the gravity or slowly increase your orbit to outside the Schwarzschild radius.

Re:It is possible to escape a black hole (1)

HTH NE1 (675604) | more than 5 years ago | (#26359235)

Contrary to what you say, it actually is possible to escape a black hole! If you have a rocket engine and enough fuel you could use a constant force to counteract the gravity or slowly increase your orbit to outside the Schwarzschild radius.

And then you could use warp particles to crack the event horizon from the inside!

Re:It is possible to escape a black hole (1)

turgid (580780) | more than 5 years ago | (#26363061)

Close, but no banana.

A light particle (photon) is an infinite rocket. Think about it.

Re:Am I the only one that thinks that.... (1)

HTH NE1 (675604) | more than 5 years ago | (#26359155)

There are theories that within each black hole is a universe all to itself, but even if it's true we'd never be able to observe it.

"In, through... and beyond." -- Dr. Hans Reinhardt

Re:Am I the only one that thinks that.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26364157)

One could speculate that the mass outside of the event horizon could warp the shape of the event horizon, much like the moon pulls the earth into an oval. If that were true, you could further speculate that if enough mass were present outside the event horizon that the energy inside could be released real quick.

Re:Am I the only one that thinks that.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26355383)

How about this? Matter that goes into black holes gets transported to the underside of spacetime, thereby causing the antigravity effect of either dark energy, dark matter or both.

Re:Am I the only one that thinks that.... (1)

nobodylocalhost (1343981) | more than 5 years ago | (#26376911)

not at all, i too share the same belief. however, i think when blackhole consumes enough energy, it actually rips spacetime bringing a small piece of spacetime with it. This is why we see blackholes disappear in space. This is not in direct contradiction to laws of energy conservation as the total energy will remain the same, it's just we will no longer be able to be affected by the energy at that point in space in the specified time. At that point, warping in spacetime created by singularity's gravity recoils and the little piece of spacetime held by the singularity expands. The recoil and expansion in spacetime will counteract gravitational forces and the internal pressure of the singularity will push all matter and energy out. Thus, big bang.

Wimps v. Machos (2, Funny)

ookabooka (731013) | more than 5 years ago | (#26353941)

So I guess the wimps win this round? Small amount of matter out there, occasionally clumping around black holes and heating up? Or do machos win as there could be a lot of black holes out there that we cant observe?

That would be cool. (1)

john.picard (1440397) | more than 5 years ago | (#26354121)

If a black hole with a positive electric charge comes near another black hole with a positive electric charge, the two will, IMHO, repel each other because the electrostatic forces are larger even than the gravitational forces that can pull everything up to and including light into the black hole. However, if there are other black holes around with negative electric charges, those black holes in combination with the positively charged ones will form a giant unit which will be held together in a sort of cosmic-sized ionic bond. That would be cool.

Re:That would be cool. (1)

Thanshin (1188877) | more than 5 years ago | (#26354909)

"Cool" as in "It's the friking apac... Apocola... The end is near! Repent!"

Re:That would be cool. (2, Interesting)

RAMMS+EIN (578166) | more than 5 years ago | (#26355529)

``If a black hole with a positive electric charge comes near another black hole with a positive electric charge, the two will, IMHO, repel each other because the electrostatic forces are larger even than the gravitational forces that can pull everything up to and including light into the black hole.''

That would depend on the strength of the charges, of course. A few million electrons of difference in charge isn't going to do much to stop two black holes of a couple million kilos each from gravitating to one another.

But how? (1)

FTWinston (1332785) | more than 5 years ago | (#26358329)

I could have sworn I studied these at some point, but today I'm stuck with this one question:

Electromagnetism is conveyed by photons, which can't escape the singularity.

Electricity and magnetism are merely two aspects of electomagnetism, so electric & magnetic fields are (I can but presume) conveyed by photons themselves.

So how does the charge inside the singularity effect the outside? Its not gonna be skewing the charge of the Hawking radiation...

I appreciate that for the charge to be one of the 3 parameters for characterising a black hole, it has to be able to have an external effect... but hell if I can work out how.

Damn, this is what getting a job in software does to the mind...

Re:But how? (1)

Luyseyal (3154) | more than 5 years ago | (#26359465)

I think the key here is that you're imagining the black hole as being "what's beneath the event horizon" whereas most are like the sun where you have various layers before you get to the core. The "atmosphere" is the part that is carrying the charge.

-l

Re:That would be cool. (1)

Fanro (130986) | more than 5 years ago | (#26361803)

``If a black hole with a positive electric charge comes near another black hole with a positive electric charge, the two will, IMHO, repel each other because the electrostatic forces are larger even than the gravitational forces that can pull everything up to and including light into the black hole.''

That would depend on the strength of the charges, of course. A few million electrons of difference in charge isn't going to do much to stop two black holes of a couple million kilos each from gravitating to one another.

IIRC if the black hole has a charge significant enough to repel another black hole, it will loose most of this charge quickly through hawking radiation.
If the black hole is positively charged, and a pair of virtual particles is generated next to it, the positive particle is much more likely to escape the pull than in the uncharged case, and vice versa.

There is also a maximum charge a black hole can have, but I do not remeber the details

economy (1)

Zork the Almighty (599344) | more than 5 years ago | (#26354845)

"Black Holes Lead Galaxy Growth" - this is great news for our economy.

LHC (1)

IceCreamGuy (904648) | more than 5 years ago | (#26354851)

Queue LHC black hole hysteria in 3... 2... 1...

Re:LHC (1)

Klootzak (824076) | more than 5 years ago | (#26355287)

OMG!!! The Black hole will eat the world!!!
/me Removes his paranoia hat

Actually, what interests me regarding the LHC project is whether the Micro-Black-Holes that will possibly be created still hold true to the effects of Gravitational Time Dilation when in close proximity to the singularity?

Anyone a Theoretical/Particle Physicist? Can you elaborate if so?

Re:LHC (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26366251)

Blackholes seem to be everywhere and they don't seem to go away. Hopefully Hawking is right and Einstein is wrong about them. Einstein versus Hawking video [youtube.com]

wow gold (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26355243)

Where to buy wow gold [mmoinn.com] good? Mmoinn.com invited you! Here are the best cheap wow gold [mmoinn.com] and wow power leveling [mmoinn.com] waiting for you! To mmoinn.com trade both safe and fast!

They didn't solve it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26355349)

"Studying galaxies that were forming in the universe's first billion years, astronomers have solved a longstanding cosmic chicken-and-egg problem"
Have they now? Odd, when I read TFA I read something different: "Astronomers may have solved a cosmic chicken-and-egg problem -- the question of which formed first in the early Universe -- galaxies or the supermassive black holes seen at their cores."
And here I was, hoping the riddle was finally and definitely solved, what a tremendous dissapointment.. Oh wait, this is slashdot. Never mind ;-)

another chicken & egg (1)

bigmo (181402) | more than 5 years ago | (#26357849)

Where did the black holes come from, after only a billion years since the big bang? I think most stars survive for a few billion years before possibly contracting & maybe forming a black hole.

Did these early black holes form in a different way?

Re:another chicken & egg (1)

huckamania (533052) | more than 5 years ago | (#26359915)

That is exactly the question I want answered. Black holes form galaxies which are made of stars which sometimes collapse to form black holes. After the big bang, the universe is supposed to be super hot, homogeneous plasma, which doesn't really provide the raw source material for black holes.

Either black holes formed first from something besides collapsed stars or they didn't. Since we have a theory of black hole formation from collapsed star and don't have an alternative source, Occam's razor would suggest that they didn't.

Re:another chicken & egg (1)

0p7imu5_P2im3 (973979) | more than 5 years ago | (#26361675)

Worse yet... if the big bang started as all the matter in the universe, then how did it manage to create the infinite energy necessary to escape itself and cause a "big bang?" It was basically a gigantic black hole so technically it was physically impossible for it to explode.

Furthermore, it seems to me like we are in a limited area of an infinite universe filled with such mega clusters as what we perceive as the known universe. Much like a solar system often forms from the death of a star, our mega cluster was formed from the death of a larger cluster or galaxy like those mentioned in this article, on the edge of the known universe.

Given that light has a limited travel speed, there is nothing to prove what is beyond the borders of the known universe. That being the case, any number of circumstances could be in effect that would encourage, or be completely unassociated to, the creation or destruction of our own universe. Any moment now, a passing known universe that died through gravimetric implosion (mega-giant black hole formation) could pass close to our universe and literally rip us apart. Such a passing could even explain certain measured forces that we have named "dark [whatever]."

Considering the time-scales we're discussing here, the fact that it has never happened since the beginning of the known universe has no bearing on whether it will happen in the future.

13th floor (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26361035)

Obviously no one has seen the 13th floor. It's pretty clear that was a unintended leak about where we are truly from!

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