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Ubuntu Mobile Looks At Qt As GNOME Alternative

kdawson posted more than 5 years ago | from the friendly-competition dept.

GNOME 262

Derwent sends along a Computerworld piece which begins: "The Ubuntu Mobile operating system is undergoing its most radical change with a port to the ARM processor for Internet devices and netbooks, and may use Nokia's LGPL Qt development environment as an alternative to GNOME. During a presentation at this year's linux.conf.au conference, Canonical's David Mandala said Ubuntu Mobile has changed a lot over the past year... 'I worked on ARM devices for many years so a full Linux distribution on ARM is exciting,' Mandala said, adding one of the biggest challenges is reminding developers to write applications for 800 by 600 screen resolutions found in smaller devices. 'The standard [resolution] for GNOME [apps] is 800 by 600, but not all apps are. For this reason Ubuntu Mobile uses the GNOME Mobile (Hildon framework) instead of a full GNOME desktop, but since Nokia open sourced Qt under the LGPL it may consider this as an alternative.'"

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262 comments

HEY MANDALA YOU PRISSY LIL' BITCH (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26539319)

Why ain't you returning my calls? You too good for me now? You better learn to arch your back better than you did before or when I find you I'mma pop your sphincter like a fleshy rubber band! BOOYAH!

Thats why... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26539343)

Gnome sucks. Fuck you all. Fags. 1st comment!!!

Re:Thats why... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26539553)

LOL 2nd place loser, hope you get stabbed in the dickhole.

Re:Thats why... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26540643)

Shut your dick in a doorjamb, cockboy.

Full 'nix for arm? (5, Insightful)

serviscope_minor (664417) | more than 5 years ago | (#26539367)

There's already a full 'nix for ARM complete with working packaging and so on, in the form of OpenBSD, just in case anyone has forgotten it. Also, the developers need to be reminded that screens are 640x480 on small devices, not 800x600. It would start if they got out of the habit of using excessively lavish button bars with enourmous, heavily padded buttons.

Anyway, it would be nice to see a proper "full" linux distribution. I'm not much of a fan of the special PDA ones since they're cut down. Then again, I'm not much of a fan of ubuntu either, but I appreciate that (say) Arch isn't to everyone's taste.

Re:Full 'nix for arm? (1)

siride (974284) | more than 5 years ago | (#26539419)

"It would start if they got out of the habit of using excessively lavish button bars with enourmous, heavily padded buttons."

I'm glad I'm not the only one annoyed by this. The strange padding fetish that the GTK folks has results in terrible feng shui for most GNOME apps, especially Nautilus. Even tweaking the theme manually to reduce the insane amounts of padding only helps a little, and often causes subtle and not-so-subtle rendering glitches.

Re:Full 'nix for arm? (4, Insightful)

Mprx (82435) | more than 5 years ago | (#26539735)

Padding makes clicking on the buttons faster, as explained by Fitts's law [wikipedia.org]. I don't want my usability compromised because some people are using impractically small screens.

Re:Full 'nix for arm? (1, Offtopic)

Chemisor (97276) | more than 5 years ago | (#26539883)

I don't want to click on your stupid big buttons. If I want to do something fast, I use the keyboard. You do provide keyboard shortcuts for your buttons, right? And if you say that you really really need an 800 pixel wide dialog, I say bullshit. We got by just fine ten years ago with 640x480 screens, and before you can say "we have more features now", I'll tell you to get rid of them and fix the bugs first. Call me bitter, but after a week of trying to play Fallout 3 with the screen freezing every five minutes (or anytime more than two sounds are playing), I have a particularly sharp axe to grind.

Re:Full 'nix for arm? (5, Interesting)

Mprx (82435) | more than 5 years ago | (#26540019)

If you really wanted to do things fast you'd use the mouse (preferably with gestures or pie menus).
http://www.asktog.com/TOI/toi06KeyboardVMouse1.html [asktog.com] :

We've done a cool $50 million of R & D on the Apple Human Interface. We discovered, among other things, two pertinent facts:

  • Test subjects consistently report that keyboarding is faster than mousing.
  • The stopwatch consistently proves mousing is faster than keyboarding.

Try timing yourself on some web browsing/text editing/file managing tasks. Keyboarding may be faster occasionally, but you'll be surprised how often mousing wins.

Re:Full 'nix for arm? (4, Insightful)

chromatic (9471) | more than 5 years ago | (#26540113)

Keyboarding may be faster occasionally, but you'll be surprised how often mousing wins.

I use Vim all day, almost every day. Using a mouse and a word processor is very much not faster for me.

Re:Full 'nix for arm? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26540495)

That's awesome, man! So you're like, what, 0.000001% of the population?

Hey everyone, some guy who's one in a million doesn't need mouse access! Burn the mouse factories down now!

Unfortunately, people like you are the very ones who are likely deciding exactly how big the buttons need to be. I smell failure. I smell the Linux people just not getting it.

Re:Full 'nix for arm? (1)

timmarhy (659436) | more than 5 years ago | (#26540357)

there is no freaking way mousing is faster.need to use undo? i've hit alt+z before you even grabbed the mouse. the ONLY way they could have come up with that is to purposefully gamed the results, such as giving subjects apps with unknown shortcut keys. given it's apple i wouldn't be surprised at all.

Re:Full 'nix for arm? (1)

Arker (91948) | more than 5 years ago | (#26540373)

This is only true for people who havent *learned* the keyboard shortcuts, or dont even touch-type to begin with. It was a rigged test and TOG, while usually good, shouldnt stoop so low as to imply otherwise.

Give me a system with keyboard shortcuts that I know well (i.e. have in muscle memory) and I'll blow away the fastest mouser in the world. I'm not even a particularly fast typist either.

Put me on a system with unfamiliar shortcut keys however and you will get results similar to what he's describing.

Re:Full 'nix for arm? (3, Insightful)

Mprx (82435) | more than 5 years ago | (#26540521)

Keyboard shortcuts are not amenable to muscle memory, as the muscle movement differs depending on the previous shortcut. Returning to the home position between each keypresses allows muscle memory, but I'd be very surprised if it were enough to compensate for the movement inefficiency. Consecutive strings of keyboard shortcuts can be memorized by muscle memory (as with typing whole words), but if you use a string of shortcuts frequently enough to memorize in this way it would be better consolidated to a single shortcut.

On the other hand, mouse gestures or pie menus require the exact same movement each time, so are highly amenable to muscle memory.

Re:Full 'nix for arm? (3, Insightful)

Arker (91948) | more than 5 years ago | (#26541323)

Keyboard shortcuts are not amenable to muscle memory, as the muscle movement differs depending on the previous shortcut. Returning to the home position between each keypresses allows muscle memory, but I'd be very surprised if it were enough to compensate for the movement inefficiency.

You're obviously not a touch typist. That's absurd. A practiced touch typist on a decent keyboard can select a paragraph for manipulation in about the time it takes you to get your hand from the keyboard to the mouse, let alone actually using the mouse to select the paragraph and THEN move the hand back into home position.

Re:Full 'nix for arm? (1)

guruevi (827432) | more than 5 years ago | (#26540961)

I prefer (for small things) one hand on the mouse (trackball) other on the keyboard. Otherwise I like to use both hands on the keyboard and even in a full GUI environment, it's easier to just put in the right key combination than search through menu's for it. The fact that those keys are standard across the Apple platform makes it even easier. Heck, some of my comments in XCode (which I use for PHP, Perl, C and C++ development) have been known to have (or won't compile because of) :wq at the end (my previous editor of choice before the latest XCode)

Re:Full 'nix for arm? (1)

samriel (1456543) | more than 5 years ago | (#26541157)

Heck, some of my comments in XCode (which I use for PHP, Perl, C and C++ development) have been known to have (or won't compile because of) :wq at the end (my previous editor of choice before the latest XCode)

I'm sorry, but I don't get it. PHP I can KIND OF see :wq at the end of a comment getting in the way, but Perl, C, and C++ (with single-line '//' comments anyway) ignore the whole line. :wq

Re:Full 'nix for arm? (1)

extrasolar (28341) | more than 5 years ago | (#26541233)

I think, these days, from the year that Tog wrote that article, your comment needs to be qualified. What he was talking about were primitive user interface elements: bolding, opening a file, saving a file, etc. But the qualification needs to be about expressability of the input method. So, if you are repeating the same or similar tasks over and over again, yeah it would be more productive to use the mouse. But, one may argue, if one is repeating the same task over and over again, that is something that should be automated anyway. Compare the key sequences for making every first letter of a sentence in a document a capital letter to the mouse sequence, and you might have a point. But if I can do a regexp search and replace, I'd have to use the key sequence. There is simply no mouse sequence that can do the equivalent; ultimately, the mouse isn't expressive enough. The mouse is expressive in dragging and dropping, and right-clicking (something that Apple isn't too fond of), but that's as far as you get. To get more expressive you need a full language by which you can give detailed commands to the computer. In 1989 people weren't thinking in that fashion.

Re:Full 'nix for arm? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26540303)

you forgot to add "Get off my lawn whippersnappers!"

the majority of people simply don't use keyboard shortcuts except for the most commonly used ones (cut, copy, paste, save, quit), also if you make a display with 640x480 as its minimum size you better make sure that when it scales we're not left with 600 pixels of white space. As for your Fallout problem maybe its time to trade in your GeForce 3 grandpa :)

Re:Full 'nix for arm? (1)

GigaplexNZ (1233886) | more than 5 years ago | (#26540771)

Throwing more powerful hardware at an unstable game will not fix the bugs.

Re:Full 'nix for arm? (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 5 years ago | (#26540855)

Throwing more powerful hardware at an unstable game will not fix the bugs.

Unless the defect in the game engine manifests itself only on less powerful hardware. Texture management and shader unimplementation bugs tend to act this way.

Re:Full 'nix for arm? (2, Informative)

GigaplexNZ (1233886) | more than 5 years ago | (#26540949)

Throwing more powerful hardware at an unstable game will not fix the bugs.

Unless the defect in the game engine manifests itself only on less powerful hardware. Texture management and shader unimplementation bugs tend to act this way.

While that is technically possible, I've seen Fallout 3 on 8 and 9 series graphics cards with plenty of crashes. Besides, Fallout 3 wouldn't run on a Geforce 3 anyway - I think it is fair to assume the graphics card in question is fairly modern otherwise they would have given up due to framerate issues.

Re:Full 'nix for arm? (1)

siride (974284) | more than 5 years ago | (#26539901)

I use a high resolution screen and I'd rather have the layout reasonable and pleasing to the eye (not to mention more real estate for actual content), than be able to click the button an extra millisecond faster. Even Mac buttons aren't as big as what GNOME generally has, and since Mac is all about HIG and that kind of stuff, I assume that the buttons really just don't need to be that fucking big.

Re:Full 'nix for arm? (1)

the_B0fh (208483) | more than 5 years ago | (#26539903)

Gee, your UI can't allow you to choose themes? Has GNOME been so simplified that you can't choose any other theme?

Re:Full 'nix for arm? (1)

FishWithAHammer (957772) | more than 5 years ago | (#26539909)

So use a theme with more padding. siride was saying (I think) that it's not a good default, not that it shouldn't be allowed. I know that one of my number one issues with a lot of GTK+ stuff is that with so much room taken up by toolbars and other crap, the amount of screen real estate available for actual working is kind of small. (Go look at MonoDevelop versus Visual Studio for an example.)

Re:Full 'nix for arm? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26539971)

See? This is the problem with GNOME. Users ask for things, and developers tell them they are wrong. WTF?

Re:Full 'nix for arm? (1)

morgan_greywolf (835522) | more than 5 years ago | (#26540109)

The so-called 'strange padding fetish' is mostly a GNOME thing. It's possible to use GTK on small screen sizes without so much padding.

Re:Full 'nix for arm? (1)

rubies (962985) | more than 5 years ago | (#26539483)

Debian is available for the NSLU2 - I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to push it out to other ARM based devices.

Re:Full 'nix for arm? (0)

the_B0fh (208483) | more than 5 years ago | (#26539853)

Why the fuck was this modded troll? I want to see who modded what values, damnit.

Contributor makes an interesting observation, and some moron marks it troll. The damned troll-modder needs to be taken out and shot.

Re:Full 'nix for arm? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26540385)

That's what meta-moderation is for

Re:Full 'nix for arm? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26540039)

There's already a full 'nix for ARM complete with working packaging and so on, in the form of OpenBSD, just in case anyone has forgotten it.

And Debian. It is basically tied with PowerPC for Debian's third most popular architecture.

Re:Full 'nix for arm? (1)

influenza (138942) | more than 5 years ago | (#26540089)

There's also Angstrom [angstrom-d...bution.org] which you might call a PDA style distro but has a growing repository. They also manage ports to several ARM variations.

And of course there's the Debian ARM port [debian.org]. I wouldn't be surprised if Ubuntu is basing their work off of this.

Too big (1)

jmorris42 (1458) | more than 5 years ago | (#26539387)

The really cheep netbooks in the pipeline, the ones most likely to be ARM based at first, tend to only have 800x480 displays so an app that barely fits in 800x600 isn't going to be usable.

I'm still waiting for one of the cheap netbooks to be available to purchase though. Lots of talk, but to date no URL to go with a credit card to buy quantity one. Really hope the different groups putting together these new ARM based machines can agree on some standards for bootloading and such so each one won't be all but tied to the one modified distro it ships with.

Re:Too big (3, Insightful)

Arker (91948) | more than 5 years ago | (#26539881)

I saw a MIPS based netbook for about US $150 a week or two ago. Trying to remember where.

It strikes me that the best way to improve usability of X apps might be to send these little babies off to as many developers as you can find - and then preferably putting a gun to their heads and forcing them to try and use their apps on them.

The gun to the head part, of course, is tongue in cheek - but wow! seldom is such a bad idea so tempting.

Re:Too big (1)

genericpoweruser (1223032) | more than 5 years ago | (#26540425)

Would it really be that difficult to make an X11 app that works similarly to alltray ( http://alltray.trausch.us/ [trausch.us] ), only instead of hiding programs in the tray it allows you to scale the window? Ideally it would be built directly into the window manager, with the controls right in the title bar.

As a work-around now you could make a new vncserver on a new virtual console (vncserver :1) then connect to it on localhost (appending :1 to the address) then scale it with TightVNC (the problem here is that I can't find the Linux GUI for TightVNC [where the scale option is found], so I currently use the Windows binary in Wine).

ARM will be dead in less than 10 years. (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26539407)

Everything will be x32 and/or amd64 compatible. Long live the Atom!

Re:ARM will be dead in less than 10 years. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26539575)

Unless AMD goes under. In which case they'll probably start stagnating after a few years.

Fuck you Linus you fucking finnish shit eater!!! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26539539)

Linus Torvalds is a god damn thief!!! When I installed Linux it asked me for my credit card number. Two days later I got a call from Wachovia asking me if I had purchased $400 worth of Totino's pizza rolls and Mountain Dew (I hadn't). Let this be a warning to all of you out there on the Internet.

Re:Fuck you Linus you fucking finnish shit eater!! (1)

TheVelvetFlamebait (986083) | more than 5 years ago | (#26541179)

(I could see this becoming a meme)

Linus Torvalds is a god damn thief!!! I gave Linux my credit card number, and two days later, he stole my virginity! Again!

Why just netbooks? (3, Insightful)

DeHackEd (159723) | more than 5 years ago | (#26539541)

Sure the big blocky feel of pretty much every window manager out there sucks on my Eee, but this is one reason I stick with GTK+ 1.x. I don't have a 1280x1024 monitor just so I can see the same material I could see on an 800x600 10 years ago but with cleaner rounded edges.

And I have the bigger Eee. 1024x600 resolution, and some dialogs don't even fit on the screen.

Re:Why just netbooks? (1)

calmofthestorm (1344385) | more than 5 years ago | (#26540003)

I stick with ion3 because my screen isn't that big. 1024x768. With a tiling wm it feels big, but with gnome, kde, etc I can barely fit a single app on the screen.

Of course, the learning curve for a tiling wm is kind of intense:-)

GTK2.x theming to the rescue (3, Interesting)

bornagainpenguin (1209106) | more than 5 years ago | (#26541393)

Martin Ankerl has a potential solution for you then, he made a HOWTO and has released a compact version of Human and Clearlooks which really make a difference! I even use them when I'm on my desktop these days to cut down on screen bloat. Find the HOWTO and linsk to the themes here: http://martin.ankerl.com/2008/10/10/how-to-make-a-compact-gnome-theme/ [ankerl.com]

--bornagainpenguin

Yah for the LGPL (4, Insightful)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 5 years ago | (#26539551)

For too many years the GPL has been killing adoption of Qt. That's a fact. Maybe it shouldn't have. Maybe people should be willing to be dictated to on what license they can use for their product because they dare to use the Qt framework. Maybe that's your opinion.

Of course, now that so many people are piling on-board to use Qt thanks to the license change, I wonder how many of them have actually bothered to read the LGPL [gnu.org]. My favourite part is section 4.

You may convey a Combined Work under terms of your choice that, taken together, effectively do not restrict modification of the portions of the Library contained in the Combined Work and reverse engineering for debugging such modifications,

Yeah, didn't see that did ya? Almost every boiler plate EULA includes a clause prohibiting reverse engineering and I wonder how many have not been updated to comply with the LGPL (thankfully a lot of us can just ignore these restrictions as the government in our part of the world recognizes reverse engineering as a right that cannot be contracted out of).

I'll be looking for violations.. just for shits and giggles.

Re:Yah for the LGPL (1)

msobkow (48369) | more than 5 years ago | (#26539825)

Personally I'll be downloading the Windows version as soon as there is an LGPL variant. I've always wanted to work with Qt, but none of the companies I've worked for would accept the GPL restrictions and they weren't willing to pony up the license fees when they could get GTK-based applications for free.

Qt looks like a nice successor to Neuron Data's Open Interface, based on C++ instead of C with C++ wrappers. Plus Qt seems to have better platform coverage and a much livelier support group.

Re:Yah for the LGPL (1)

vbraga (228124) | more than 5 years ago | (#26539963)

Why don't you go for Qt 4.5 beta [qtsoftware.com]? It's available both under GPL and a "special beta license" (dunno what that means). When Qt 4.5 is officially released (about March '09), supporting LGPL, you already playing with it.

I've been working with it for about a year and it's really nice. It feels somewhat bloated sometimes and I really dislike the Visual Studio integration. Qmake could be better. But, overall, I believe is the best framework for C++. It's really nice to work with.

Re:Yah for the LGPL (1)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 5 years ago | (#26540231)

This is true. And you no longer have to worry about the insanity of Trolltech's lawyers who claimed that you couldn't do private commercial development with the GPL licensed library.

Re:Yah for the LGPL (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26540569)

Their beta licence is basically a free-beer version of their regular proprietary licence.

Re:Yah for the LGPL (1)

Cyberax (705495) | more than 5 years ago | (#26540511)

Notice the words "for debugging such modifications".

It pretty much means that your users are allowed to attach to your process with GDB to debug their libraries and that's about it.

Re:Yah for the LGPL (3, Insightful)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 5 years ago | (#26540617)

Note the words "reverse engineering". If you forbid reverse engineering, as typical EULAs do, for any purpose, then that is forbidding reverse engineering for debugging modifications to the library. So they at least need to modify their EULA to permit reverse engineering for this purpose. And it also means they can't put any anti-debugging tricks in the application, because it will interfere with that reverse engineering.

Re:Yah for the LGPL (1)

Cyberax (705495) | more than 5 years ago | (#26540705)

It's certainly possible to use anti-debugging tricks, if they do not interfere with linked libraries.

In practice, shareware authors can (and do) legally use anti-cracking protectors with their own code if they do not interfere with LGPL libraries.

In any case, anti-circumvention prohibitions in EULAs are the most stupid clauses...

This is why I prefer GNOME (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26539573)

A couple weeks ago, while browsing around the library downtown, I had to take a piss. As I
entered the john, Barack Obama -- the messiah himself -- came out of one of the booths. I
stood at the urinal looking at him out of the corner of my eye as he washed his hands. He
didn't once look at me. He was busy and in any case I was sure the secret service wouldn't
even let me shake his hand.

As soon as he left I darted into the booth he'd vacated, hoping there might be a lingering
smell of shit and even a seat still warm from his sturdy ass. I found not only the smell but
the shit itself. He'd forgotten to flush. And what a treasure he had left behind. Three or
four beautiful specimens floated in the bowl. It apparently had been a fairly dry,
constipated shit, for all were fat, stiff, and ruggedly textured. The real prize was a great
feast of turd -- a nine inch gastrointestinal triumph as thick as his cock -- or at least as
I imagined it!

I knelt before the bowl, inhaling the rich brown fragrance and wondered if I should obey the
impulse building up inside me. I'd always been a liberal democrat and had been on the Obama
train since last year. Of course I'd had fantasies of meeting him, sucking his cock and
balls, not to mention sucking his asshole clean, but I never imagined I would have the
chance. Now, here I was, confronted with the most beautiful five-pound turd I'd ever feasted
my eyes on, a sausage fit to star in any fantasy and one I knew to have been hatched from
the asshole of Barack Obama, the chosen one.

Why not? I plucked it from the bowl, holding it with both hands to keep it from breaking. I
lifted it to my nose. It smelled like rich, ripe limburger (horrid, but thrilling), yet had
the consistency of cheddar. What is cheese anyway but milk turning to shit without the
benefit of a digestive tract?

I gave it a lick and found that it tasted better then it smelled.

I hesitated no longer. I shoved the fucking thing as far into my mouth as I could get it and
sucked on it like a big half nigger cock, beating my meat like a madman. I wanted to
completely engulf it and bit off a large chunk, flooding my mouth with the intense,
bittersweet flavor. To my delight I found that while the water in the bowl had chilled the
outside of the turd, it was still warm inside. As I chewed I discovered that it was filled
with hard little bits of something I soon identified as peanuts. He hadn't chewed them
carefully and they'd passed through his body virtually unchanged. I ate it greedily, sending
lump after peanutty lump sliding scratchily down my throat. My only regret was that Barack
Obama wasn't there to see my loyalty and wash it down with his piss.

I soon reached a terrific climax. I caught my cum in the cupped palm of my hand and drank it
down. Believe me, there is no more delightful combination of flavors than the hot sweetness
of cum with the rich bitterness of shit. It's even better than listening to an Obama speech!

Afterwards I was sorry that I hadn't made it last longer. But then I realized that I still
had a lot of fun in store for me. There was still a clutch of virile turds left in the bowl.
I tenderly fished them out, rolled them into my handkerchief, and stashed them in my
briefcase. In the week to come I found all kinds of ways to eat the shit without bolting it
right down. Once eaten it's gone forever unless you want to filch it third hand out of your
own asshole. Not an unreasonable recourse in moments of desperation or simple boredom.

I stored the turds in the refrigerator when I was not using them but within a week they were
all gone. The last one I held in my mouth without chewing, letting it slowly dissolve. I had
liquid shit trickling down my throat for nearly four hours. I must have had six orgasms in
the process.

I often think of Barack Obama dropping solid gold out of his sweet, pink asshole every day,
never knowing what joy it could, and at least once did, bring to a grateful democrat.

"" may "" "" consider "" (1)

sofar (317980) | more than 5 years ago | (#26539581)

enough said for now. this is just speculation. nobody is seriously looking into dumping gtk+/gnome.

Re:"" may "" "" consider "" (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26539921)

"Nobody educated isn't looking into dumping gnome" you mean?

Everyone with half a brain or more realizes that QT is the superior framework, with much superior backing over the hacked together hodge-podge of random dependencies that makes up gnome. I predict that Gnome is going to see a lot of defection in a due time as it's hacked together nature will become more evident and make it increasingly harder to hide what a fossile it is. I say, let it die, the original reason for its existence is already gone and all that remains is inertia and deluded fanboys.

Re:"" may "" "" consider "" (4, Informative)

morgan_greywolf (835522) | more than 5 years ago | (#26540279)

Ok, I'll bite.

Top 10 Reasons GNOME isn't going anywhere:

10. Firefox and Thunderbird are GTK+
9. Konqueror and KHTML, without WebKit, is hobbled by severe rendering and JavaScript bugs
8. GIMP is GTK+
7. The OOo KDE integration, last I checked anyway, was nowhere near as good as the GNOME integration.
6. Pidgin is GTK+ and Kopete is still very immature compared to it.
5. Inkscape is a GTK+/GNOME app.
4. Audacity is GTK+
3. Most of the popular major distros have GNOME as the default desktop (Ubuntu, Fedora, Mandriva, Debian, etc.)
2. GNOME is easier to use than KDE

and the number one reason GNOME isn't going anywhere:

1. Germans just love David Hasselhoff!

Re:"" may "" "" consider "" (1)

Cyberax (705495) | more than 5 years ago | (#26540583)

Frankly, I hope that GNOME+GTK die a quick death.

10. FireFox already has QT build (http://browser.garage.maemo.org/news/10/ff3qt.png). Thunderbird will be easy to port, since libxul is already ported.
9. Who cares about WebKit? I have never seen anyone using Konqueror or Epiphany.
8. GIMP must die. KDE has Krita.
7. That's a problem.
6. Pidgin is dying (mainly because its developers can't find their asses with both hands), Empathy is slowly replacing it even in GNOME. Kopete is maturing very fast.
5. Scribus.
4. So?
3. That's already changing.
2. Not by much.

1. Well, GNOME vs. KDE is now certainly going to ignite flamewars on the scale of virtual WWII :)

Re:"" may "" "" consider "" (1)

niteice (793961) | more than 5 years ago | (#26540755)

4. Audacity is GTK+

Wrong. Audacity is wxWidgets, which uses GTK on X11, and the native windowing toolkit elsewhere.

Re:"" may "" "" consider "" (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 5 years ago | (#26540921)

4. Audacity is GTK+

Wrong. Audacity is wxWidgets, which uses GTK on X11

Until wxWidgets is ported to Qt, all wxWidgets apps will be GTK+.

Re:"" may "" "" consider "" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26540761)

10. FF runs on windows. Apparently it is not just GTK+

9. Most of that runs one directional to WebKit. As in like a 4 lane highway flowing towards web-kit and a small foot-path flowing back to KHTML.

8. Honestly, how many people use GIMP? (this is also dis-ingenuous since GTK stands for "Gimp Took Kit").

7. Same as FF (10). KDE is perfectly capable of loading GTK, it just looks a little out of place. If OOo can make it work in Windows, it is probably trival to convert it. meh.

6. 2 crappy chat applications are not going to make any serious difference.

5. Inkscape is so popular I have never even heard of it. (I actually try to keep up with this stuff).

4. Audacity I have at least heard of, but never used. XMMS and the multitude of others mean that it is hardly a barrier.

3. Ubuntu fairly 'screams' that Kubuntu is also available right on the download page. (meaningless argument). Fedora last I checked let you choose at install time, just Gnome was checked by default (meaningless argument). Mandriva ... poplular? hahahaha. Debian (The core to #1 which you already mentioned) probably sits at a command prompt in server rooms (whatever). SuSE is a close 2nd and also defaults to Gnome, however just like Fedora it is merely a checkbox that can be changed at install time (meaningless argument).

2. THAT is subjective. I find KDE easier, so now it is 50/50 ? Cute.

1. ..Shiver..

A/C since I don't feel like getting my karma beat up by the "Funny/Troll" moderation blender.

Re:"" may "" "" consider "" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26541317)

Why do you knock good programs with out providing references to any alternatives?What's wrong with the gimp? Still wining about the interface? get over it already, just because you're not used to it.Why should should the developers bend over backwards just to please a bunch loud mouths who don't use the program anyways.

Whats wrong with pidgin? Again what program do you advocate?
The fact that you've never heard of inkscape attests more to your ignorance than to the obscurity of this program.

sorry if this response seems sharp but I tire of people knocking other people's work just further their bias.

Re:"" may "" "" consider "" (1)

Repossessed (1117929) | more than 5 years ago | (#26541209)

9 webkit and khtml were remerged
3 is a good reason, 2 I'd argue with, but is very subjective.

The rest? Who cares? I use KDE and have no issues running them.

Whiney complaints (send to /dev/null) (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26539701)

I know it's probably just bad luck, or some ignorance on my part, but I gotta say that I bloody hate Qt. There are loads of applications I would like to run that use it, but every time I try to compile one I go through the same soul destroying and ultimately fruitless process.

@ Canonical: Your download and version explanation system is a shambles. I don't want loads of versions and licences to read. I dont want Java script required to get it. I want a simple installer that works on my Debian system or a bog standard ./configure + make all process.

Why do you make your software so hard to use?

Look at this webpage: http://www.qtsoftware.com/downloads/opensource [qtsoftware.com]

** Application Development or Device Creation. **

WTF? What is that all about to someone who just wants to run an application that uses Qt?

** Choose platform and programming language **

Why the hell am I even looking at this when I just want to run an application?

I know my comment will be burried for saying this, but this kind of crap is what we all know is wrong with open source software. The front end delivery is done by geeks and bean counters who don't actually use the products as end users.

If you want Qt widely used you need to make it easy to get and install.

Re:Whiney complaints (send to /dev/null) (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26539851)

>@ Canonical
>Debian system

WTF?

Re:Whiney complaints (send to /dev/null) (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26539905)

If you want to build from source you should be competent enough to figure out how to download it; it's really not hard. Otherwise, let your vendor do the packaging for you. Most Linux distributions make it so you don't have to care about building anything; and the BSDs make building easy anyhow.

Granted, if you are building from source, Qt's build method is mildly stupid compared to the (end-user) ease of autotools or CMake. But really, if you're just wanting to run programs, let your vendor take care of it all for you.

Re:Whiney complaints (send to /dev/null) (4, Insightful)

tftp (111690) | more than 5 years ago | (#26539951)

WTF? What is that all about to someone who just wants to run an application that uses Qt?

If you want only to run a Qt-based app then you do not need to do anything except to install the application. It should install the Qt runtime libraries for you.

Why the hell am I even looking at this when I just want to run an application?

A good question indeed :-)

If you want Qt widely used you need to make it easy to get and install.

If you are a developer then installation of Qt is the least of your worries. If you are an end user then, as I said, you should not install Qt at all.

Re:Whiney complaints (send to /dev/null) (5, Insightful)

Draek (916851) | more than 5 years ago | (#26540179)

I know my comment will be burried for saying this, but this kind of crap is what we all know is wrong with open source software. The front end delivery is done by geeks and bean counters who don't actually use the products as end users.

You may notice the fact that QT was originally developed by a commercial company, Trolltech. You may also notice the fact that since, until lately, they sold commercial licenses for the same software they licensed as GPL, practically all contributions to the 'main' branch of QT were done by Trolltech (and now Nokia) employees. Therefore, if anything, this proves the failings of cathedral-style development, of which closed-source is the biggest exponent.

Ohh and also, being a person unwilling to use pre-compiled packages to be able to use a library you do *not* plan to use as a developer puts you amongst the minority of a minority of a minority of users, therefore do not be surprised if Trolltech/Nokia doesn't care about you at all.

Re:Whiney complaints (send to /dev/null) (1)

dbIII (701233) | more than 5 years ago | (#26541235)

You may also have noticed that they were making the source code available to all even back when RMS was saying "Linux? Never heard of it" in every interview. It has been around for a while and open for a long time.

Re:Whiney complaints (send to /dev/null) (1)

int69h (60728) | more than 5 years ago | (#26540235)

I'd say "what we all know is wrong with open source software" is what is actually right about it. I'm sorry that the fact that it runs on multiple platforms and is available under multiple licenses inconveniences you. Perhaps you should check out http://www.microsoft.com. Most of their stuff runs on exactly one platform and is available under one license, so you won't have to worry about making those pesky decisions.

Re:Whiney complaints (send to /dev/null) (4, Informative)

AeneaTech (1308711) | more than 5 years ago | (#26540369)

If you want Qt widely used you need to make it easy to get and install.

They (Qt Software) make it easy to use and install for their intended user-base. Namely: developers
As an end-user you have no business going there.

The applications you are trying to install should be installed using apt-get which will install the needed Qt libs.
If there's no .deb for the requested app, apt-get ubuntu's libqt4-dev, download the source, go to the source directory where the .pro (project) file is located. run qmake-qt4 in that directory and then run a normal make.

It's not that hard, even from sources. Sure, some problems might arise if the app is using features of a newer Qt version than the 1 bundled with your distro. Even that is easy to solve if you are a developer and if you're not, go complain to the author of the app...

Re:Whiney complaints (send to /dev/null) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26540419)

Why are you even visting Qt's website if you just want to run the app? Linux distros will hapilly install qt for you if any of your apps need it (assuming you're using the package manager). On Windows, the apps should be distributed directly with the Qt libraries.

If you want to do development on Linux (or manually compile qt-based projects), just install the libqt4-dev package that comes with your system (all Linux distros these days tend to come with a package manager AFAIK). That'll install it perfectly. libqt4-dbg will give you the debug builds of the libraries too if you need them for some reason.

For Windows platforms, you are required to build it, but it wasn't that much of an issue (if you have problems doing this, then you're going to have way more problems compiling the program itself)

I even built it for Solaris (although I struggled slightly on that one due to it being a school computer and running into permissions issues & disk space stuff).

Does he mean 800x480? (1)

BikeHelmet (1437881) | more than 5 years ago | (#26539849)

Most ARM handhelds have 800x480 screens, or smaller. 4:3 isn't that common, unless you're talking about relatively new tablets where larger displays matter.

Gnome is rather heavy. Nice to see them using something lighter, at least until ARM processors reach netbook speeds.

Debian Has Supported ARM For Years (4, Informative)

John Hasler (414242) | more than 5 years ago | (#26539887)

I worked on ARM devices for many years so a full Linux distribution on ARM is exciting

You mean. for example, Debian GNU/Linux on ARM [debian.org]?

Re:Debian Has Supported ARM For Years (1)

morgan_greywolf (835522) | more than 5 years ago | (#26540329)

Without which, Ubuntu Mobile couldn't possibly exist as they wouldn't be able to rip-off most of the work of the Debian packagers. ;)

*ducking*

Re:Debian Has Supported ARM For Years (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26540831)

meh, everytime ubuntu on the arm is mentioned, SOMEONE has to mention that debian is doing too. And they TOTALLY miss the point.

The link you gave describes working being done to create a compiler for different arm based architectures. Ubuntu has much higher goals, ie creating a set of software that fits on a single disc (or whatever), that you can install, and it has all the basics of software that you need.

People aren't excited that "woo, I can install any program from the multi gig debian archive onto my pocket sized pc, even though it works like crap". They want something customised that works well.

Anyway, it seems like people are hating on Ubuntu, and it makes me sad. Mark Shuttleworth is a cool guy. I don't think he is doing this just for a gold star. He seems really passionate about opensource software, and bringing it to all computing devices that aren't servers.

AT LAST (3, Insightful)

NekoXP (67564) | more than 5 years ago | (#26540047)

Hoo-fucking-ray!

At last some common sense..

Qt outstrips GTK/GNOME just as a GUI toolkit and a bunch of middleware, even before you start thinking about stuff like KDE.

The only thing stopping it's use - at least in the strange mix of preinstalled Linux distributions on standard hardware - was that weird problem of having to have every one of your developers buy a license just to run their app - on a Dell for example - if their license was even slightly incompatible. That was a real turn-off if you were a hardware company wanting to take advantage of open source and build communities around open source software.

I'm glad that so soon after Nokia announced the LGPL relicensing, people are taking notice of what is quite obviously a far superior middleware solution than the GTK/GNOME nightmare, and considering developing solutions that work because of code quality and wealth of features, and not *just* because it's GPL.

what the fuck are you on about? (-1, Troll)

Reality Master 201 (578873) | more than 5 years ago | (#26540473)

Qt sucks dick. It's a shitty, bloated widget set with a convoluted, badly designed object model. And I have no idea why you think bringing KDE into the conversation is gonna score points in your favor.

Yay for the licensing changes, but so fucking what in practical terms. Fuck Qt and every single person that's worked on it - if every one of those cock suckers caught the HIV tomorrow it wouldn't be soon enough.

Re:what the fuck are you on about? (4, Funny)

slimjim8094 (941042) | more than 5 years ago | (#26540677)

Folks, I propose we take this good fellow as the perfect example of a non-biased and uncharged commentator.

Kudos to you on your stellar objectivity!

Re:what the fuck are you on about? (1)

Reality Master 201 (578873) | more than 5 years ago | (#26540871)

It's not an objective view - I've used Qt before, for several projects (it's our standard GUI toolkit where I work).

And, yes, I've done complex applications using it.

Re:what the fuck are you on about? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26540763)

Please tell us how you really feel.

Re:AT LAST (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26540645)

Qt outstrips GTK/GNOME just as a GUI toolkit and a bunch of middleware, even before you start thinking about stuff like KDE.

Does it still require running moc? Having to run a pre-processor means less control over my code.

Re:AT LAST (1)

siride (974284) | more than 5 years ago | (#26540967)

Having to run a compiler means less control over your code. If you are really that anal about it, use assembly, or better yet, just code in a hex editor.

MOC doesn't really do that much. It just generates some much-needed code for limited object introspection. Otherwise, it's not much more advanced than what you already get with the C preprocessor.

Re:AT LAST (1)

dbIII (701233) | more than 5 years ago | (#26541275)

That was a real turn-off if you were a hardware company wanting to take advantage of open source

Why? If you were not selling the software you didn't need a commercial licence. The idea was simply to stop people making money from Trolltech's efforts for free, but if you aren't making anything from it (eg. selling the hardware but giving the software away) then you didn't need to give them anything.

Gnomistas? Move on . . . (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26540101)

GTK really got motivated because of the licensing of QT and I could understand their argument at the time. I believe that the presence of GTK had an influence on the license evolution of QT, but now that time has passed. You want Linux to rule the world? Use a multi-platform toolkit like QT.

I do predict that the Gnomistas will attempt to fork QT or at least waste additional resources on GTK or jump on Webkit rather than embrace the fated QT. I see yet another classic X versus Y debate.

Let's move on.

hmnn (1)

Vexorian (959249) | more than 5 years ago | (#26540237)

I agree with the suddenoutbreakofcommonsense, but that goes to Nokia, actually. Regarding this, how would you switch from gnome to QT? that won't make sense, guess they meant they would switch to KDE so that they will then make QT apps?

What *is* happening? (2, Insightful)

dhasenan (758719) | more than 5 years ago | (#26540289)

Ubuntu Mobile is not switching to Qt.

Ubuntu Mobile is not even considering switching to Qt.

At some point in the future, they may consider switching.

How is this news?

Re:What *is* happening? (2, Informative)

mcbridematt (544099) | more than 5 years ago | (#26540395)

I was at the particular session where David spoke. His comment was more along the lines that mobile GUI's were a fast moving target, and Qt may gain more momentum given Nokia acquired it and made it LGPL. (aside, Nokia is now pushing Qt for Symbian/S60 dev)

The comment regarding screen resolution is that the majority of developers haven't designed their GUI under a low res environment, and given that such resolutions are starting to appear again, some work needs to be done.

Reminding Developers to Code for 800x600 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26541279)

Sounds like tough work, Mandela needs a raise!!

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