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Survey Says C Dominated New '08 Open-Source Projects

timothy posted more than 5 years ago | from the take-that-25-other-letters dept.

Programming 378

svonkie writes "C overwhelmingly proved to be the most popular programming language for thousands of new open-source projects in 2008, reports The Register (UK). According to license tracker Black Duck Software, which monitors 180,000 projects on nearly 4,000 sites, almost half — 47 per cent — of new projects last year used C. 17,000 new open-source projects were created in total. Next in popularity after C came Java, with 28 per cent. In scripting, JavaScript came out on top with 20 per cent, followed by Perl with 18 per cent. PHP attracted just 11 per cent, and Ruby six per cent. The numbers are a surprise, as open-source PHP has proved popular as a web-site development language, while Ruby's been a hot topic for many."

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c-derived languages? (4, Insightful)

Drantin (569921) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568227)

Seeing as one of the projects mentioned with the most releases was in C#, is it lumping C,C++,C#, etc all under one label?

Re:c-derived languages? (5, Insightful)

daknapp (156051) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568287)

Which it shouldn't, as C, C# and C++ seem pretty distinct.

And what about Objective-C?

Re:c-derived languages? (2, Insightful)

Faggot (614416) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568367)

I'd expect that the C family won because of Objective-C; there was a huge amount of iPhone development this year.

Re:c-derived languages? (4, Funny)

iluvcapra (782887) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568433)

Open-source iPhone development?

Re:c-derived languages? (0, Redundant)

onefriedrice (1171917) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568451)

Except that this is about new open source projects. I doubt there are so many open source iPhone projects to tip the scales that much.

Re:c-derived languages? (4, Informative)

DragonWriter (970822) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568533)

I'd expect that the C family won because of Objective-C; there was a huge amount of iPhone development this year.

I read TFA but don't have it open, ISTR that there only a small number of mobile projects, and a smaller number of those for the iPhone, on the order of 40, out of the thousands of new projects, so I don't think that Objective-C for the iPhone tipped the balance for the C family, even if they did count the C family as one unit.

Re:c-derived languages? (4, Funny)

Goldberg's Pants (139800) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568989)

Screw all the C variants. Where did Fortran place?

Re:c-derived languages? (4, Funny)

drpimp (900837) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568747)

Now that's just being subjective!

Re:c-derived languages? (3, Insightful)

edwardd (127355) | more than 5 years ago | (#26569147)

Isn't Objective-C about as widely used as Esperanto?

Re:c-derived languages? (0)

sarahbau (692647) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568289)

That's what I was wondering as well. I can't imagine that C itself was all that popular. I'd guess C derivatives were more popular.

Re:c-derived languages? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26568387)

C is very popular for cross platform programs especially open source that don't rely on much platform specific code (c# is windows specific and c++ has some issues if you are not very careful).

But yeah, c should not count for c++ and c#. Their syntax may be similiar but they are approached and programmed quite differently (their are other languages with similiar c syntax so but they are not lumped in).

Re:c-derived languages? (5, Informative)

FishWithAHammer (957772) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568997)

c# is windows specific

Wrong.

Re:c-derived languages? (4, Insightful)

shaitand (626655) | more than 5 years ago | (#26569139)

Technically no, practically yes. C# is .net specific and .net is windows specific. Mono is not 100% compatible.

Re:c-derived languages? (1)

Xiroth (917768) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568291)

It must be, given that it didn't mention C++ at all (which certainly gave me a momentary WTF reaction before I figured out what they'd done).

Re:c-derived languages? (1)

shaitand (626655) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568299)

That's just wrong. C != C++ and C# is another animal altogether.

How about :O C==8 (-1, Troll)

Proctal Relapse (467579) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568319)

That's 8==D O: , but for all you sand niggers (incl. Jew)

Re:How about :O C==8 (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26568357)

Here in the states pretty much everyone is snipped regardless of origin or religion.

Re:c-derived languages? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26568825)

They also say that these projects "use" C, but don't say that C is the primary language being used. Most languages give programmers the option to implement parts of their program natively to either re-use existing code or optimize for performance. If a Java project contains a few native methods or a Python project has a native extension module, it would seem that those projects would count as both C and the primary language, despite the fact that the amount of C code is relatively small.

Re:c-derived languages? (1)

DragonWriter (970822) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568957)

Seeing as one of the projects mentioned with the most releases was in C#, is it lumping C,C++,C#, etc all under one label?

Probably not. The language percentages are out of all projects tracked, not releases, the "most releases" is a separate ranking of projects done from the same survey. The fact that a project has lots of releases doesn't make it count for more than any other project in the language share percentages, its still one project.

The fact that they differentiate C++, C#, and C as different languages in the "languages used" column (one of the "Rookies of the Year" projects has C and C++ both listed) seems to indicate that they did not lump them under one label, and that C++ (and C#) weren't as popular as C and Java.

no C++ (4, Interesting)

shaitand (626655) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568241)

I'm surprised C++ didn't make the list.

Re:no C++ (5, Informative)

RedWizzard (192002) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568981)

I'm surprised C++ didn't make the list.

It didn't make the list because apparently the authors think that C, C++, and C# are all the same language.

Hrmmm. (5, Funny)

inode_buddha (576844) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568281)

I can C clearly now...

Re:Hrmmm. (5, Funny)

ciaohound (118419) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568441)

... the brain is gone.

Re:Hrmmm. (2, Funny)

inode_buddha (576844) | more than 5 years ago | (#26569015)

Oh, say can you C...

Not surprising (3, Insightful)

DragonWriter (970822) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568327)

The results really aren't surprising: as TFA states, most projects use more than one language. So C coming out on top with Java #2 is hardly unsurprising: many extensions built for scripting languages use either C or the primary language for the VM they target (Java for the JVM) in addition to whatever scripting language they are for. And JavaScript being tops among scripting languages also isn't surprising; PHP and Ruby may be popular for web applications, but most PHP and Ruby web apps (and web app frameworks) rely on the use of JavaScript on the client side, and so will often also include JavaScript.

Re:Not surprising (1)

htnmmo (1454573) | more than 5 years ago | (#26569011)

I don't know if your analysis is fair.

It seems they classified by what the project was written in and not what the target platform (VM) was. They stated the Java language came it at number 2, not the Java VM.

While other languages may run on the JVM, I don't think they counted. JRuby would probably count as Ruby, not Java.

The results are for number of projects using a language. So if a project uses JavaScript and PHP it would count for JavaScript and PHP.

Just because PHP is popular (2, Insightful)

BitHive (578094) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568333)

Does not mean it is suitable for large-scale development projects. People who have done projects in better languages understand this, and I fully expect to be flamed by people who need PHP to get anything done.

Re:Just because PHP is popular (3, Insightful)

shaitand (626655) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568411)

PHP has been applied to many large scale development projects, demonstrating that you are incorrect. Don't misconstrue your own preference for one language over another to mean that a language is inferior or unsuitable.

Re:Just because PHP is popular (1)

Unoti (731964) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568487)

Both parent and grandparent are right. PHP has in fact worked great for many large scale development projects.

But at the same time, show me a large scale project done in PHP, and I'll show you a large scale project that would have been better off in Python.

Re:Just because PHP is popular (1)

Bindox (1414685) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568543)

"But at the same time, show me a large scale project done in PHP, and I'll show you a large scale project that would have been better off in Python."

Agreed, and..

Show me a large scale project done in PHP, and I'll show you a large scale project that has other code embedded, like C (or any C variant).

Re:Just because PHP is popular (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26568705)

I don't know about the other embedded code, but let's get this started:

  • Facebook
  • Wikimedia (this includes Wikipedia)
  • Digg

Re:Just because PHP is popular (1)

FishWithAHammer (957772) | more than 5 years ago | (#26569021)

Drupal.

Re:Just because PHP is popular (1)

Timothy Brownawell (627747) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568589)

But at the same time, show me a large scale project done in PHP, and I'll show you a large scale project that would have been better off in Python.

How can you build anything large-scale in a language too dynamic for proper static verification?

Re:Just because PHP is popular (3, Insightful)

bnenning (58349) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568865)

How can you build anything large-scale in a language too dynamic for proper static verification?

Sometimes large-scale projects in static languages can be small-scale in dynamic. For example look at the ridiculous amount of resources devoted to dependency injection frameworks in Java, where in Python or Ruby those capabilities are essentially built in.

Re:Just because PHP is popular (1, Insightful)

Unoti (731964) | more than 5 years ago | (#26569227)

Truth is, static verification is generally overrated. Static typing has its place, but its place is not "everywhere, all the time, in every app". This topic is hotly debated, but for me the proof is in getting the job done effectively and quickly.

If a program works, and does it without a lot of static typing and other mumbo jumbo, then so much the better.

Re:Just because PHP is popular (1)

Alpha830RulZ (939527) | more than 5 years ago | (#26569005)

Check out Journyx time control software. It's a significant for profit business application, that works pretty well, and is built on python.

Clearly, it can be done. Frankly, compared to building apps in C, python is, IMLTHO, far better support for large projects.

Re:Just because PHP is popular (4, Insightful)

shaitand (626655) | more than 5 years ago | (#26569105)

'But at the same time, show me a large scale project done in PHP, and I'll show you a large scale project that would have been better off in Python.'

With all do respect, I find that most worshipers at the altar of python feel the same way about anything that doesn't require C for the sake of performance.

I realize you guys feel that code should LOOK pretty. But not everyone agrees that you need the language to mandate style and FUNCTIONALLY python is no more capable than Perl (example intentionally chosen to make pythonites cring). For most web projects, php is as capable as either.

Besides, he claimed PHP was unsuitable for large projects not merely that there were better choices. PHP is suitable and demonstrably so. There are languages that aren't, like VB. There are no large projects primarily written in VB for this reason despite the fact that vb was extremely popular.

Re:Just because PHP is popular (1)

ChienAndalu (1293930) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568501)

PHP has been applied to many large scale development projects, demonstrating that you are incorrect.

Argumentum ad populum? It has been applied, but the GP said that it still isn't suitable.

PHP apps often look like this [photopumpkin.com] , and just because many people in the world do it that way, it doesn't mean that it's good.

Which major company uses PHP? Google? Youtube? Amazon?

The only one I know is Wikipedia, and they are lucky to be able to cache most content.

Re:Just because PHP is popular (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26568659)

Facebook and Yahoo come to mind.

Re:Just because PHP is popular (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26568743)

Look at all the forum software out there, like phpBB, and sites like SlickDeals and FatWallet.com

Re:Just because PHP is popular (1)

shaitand (626655) | more than 5 years ago | (#26569043)

'It has been applied, but the GP said that it still isn't suitable.'

My argument wasn't that PHP was popularly used. My argument was that php is a tool which has been used to successfully create numerous large scale projects. What makes a language suitable for large scale projects? The ability to use said language to successfully develop a large scale project.

The GP didn't merely say there were better tools but that PHP was unsuitable (and therefore incapable) for use in large projects.

'Which major company uses PHP?'

What do companies have to do with anything?

'PHP apps often look like this [photopumpkin.com], and just because many people in the world do it that way, it doesn't mean that it's good.'

Along with apps in every other language. You can write code that WORKS that way in python (since for some reason seeing that brings to mind the gospel of the mindless zombies of the church of python) it will just look pretty and organized while it does it.

Re:Just because PHP is popular (4, Insightful)

DragonWriter (970822) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568519)

PHP has been applied to many large scale development projects, demonstrating that you are incorrect.

Well, no.

"X has been used for Y" does not demonstrate that "X is suitable for Y".

Re:Just because PHP is popular (1)

shaitand (626655) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568965)

'"X has been used for Y" does not demonstrate that "X is suitable for Y".'

Fine. For the sake of pedantic. PHP has been used in many large scale projects that work well for the task for which they were designed. Demonstrating that the GP is incorrect.

Happy now? We are talking about coding. If the result functions and well then the language was suitable to create it, end of story. Something else might have been MORE suitable but that is another matter.

Re:Just because PHP is popular (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26569157)

If the result functions and well then the language was suitable to create it, end of story

That depends on the effort required to use php rather than another language - as well as the general level of expertise. Sure, a squad of 10 crack language-A programmers can create a great holiday calendar app in a week, but if an medium-competency programmer can write it in a a week in language-B...

Re:Just because PHP is popular (1)

zobier (585066) | more than 5 years ago | (#26569183)

For various values of well.
I happen to like PHP but look at the nightmare it caused for the Facebook team.
Yeah, you can always throw more hardware at something but that doesn't make it the best tool for the job.

Re:Just because PHP is popular (1)

_Hellfire_ (170113) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568511)

Does not mean it is suitable for large-scale development projects.

I direct your attention to Wikipedia and Facebook. PHP is fine for large scale projects.

Re:Just because PHP is popular (2, Insightful)

BitHive (578094) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568639)

Two of the slowest sites on the internet whose infrastructure needs are embarrassingly huge for the service they provide.

Re:Just because PHP is popular (1)

Daniel Dvorkin (106857) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568933)

Wikipedia is one of the "slowest sites on the internet"? Huh? Wikipedia pages generally load very fast for me -- often faster than, e.g., similarly-sized pages on Slashdot.

Re:Just because PHP is popular (1)

_Hellfire_ (170113) | more than 5 years ago | (#26569083)

Personally, comparing Wikipedia (and Facebook for that matter) as a sample to the other sites I use, they don't stand out in the population as "slow" sites.

They have slowdowns occasionally, but I've found they happen as much as any other site I visit.

Re:Just because PHP is popular (4, Interesting)

KermodeBear (738243) | more than 5 years ago | (#26569161)

For the services that they provide...

Wikipedia now has 200 application servers, 20 database servers and 70 servers dedicated to Squid cache servers. Reference [datacenterknowledge.com]

I'd say that it is quite remarkable.

Re:Just because PHP is popular (1)

shaitand (626655) | more than 5 years ago | (#26569181)

Are you on crack? Facebook is slowed by advertising but Wikipedia would be on my top 5 list of fast loading sites.

Re:Just because PHP is popular (1)

dyfet (154716) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568637)

Javascript is usually restricted to client-side stuff, so this simply suggests that there is a LOT of new web 2.0/ajax type stuff being written; this seems possible.

Perl is widely used as a system scripting language, and for various kinds of applications, as well as for creating web sites, and I think the perl numbers reflect this more general use over php. This seems highly probable.

I would not be entirely surprised to see someone claim Ruby usage is still rather low, but I gather python was not even mentioned. That is rather surprising.
   

Re:Just because PHP is popular (1)

edmicman (830206) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568907)

I've throw a question about for anyone to answer...

My day job is web development maintaining classic ASP and using C# and .NET....good ol' Microsoft shop. I've got hobby experience with PHP/MySQL from my web host and tinkering with scripts like Wordpress and the like. If I wanted to pick up an open source language and skills for web development, with something that could also be used for enterprise use or scalability later, what should I choose? Stick with PHP? Python? Ruby?

Re:Just because PHP is popular (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26568959)

Python, Perl, Java, basically. Erlang might become a contender some day.

Re:Just because PHP is popular (1)

Alpha830RulZ (939527) | more than 5 years ago | (#26569029)

Python or java/jsp. Python for fast development, Java/jsp for scalability/enterprise acceptability. I am using python/Jython for new work at my fortune 500 employer. This lets me fairly easily embed existing java code into the glueware I am building.

Re:Just because PHP is popular (1)

shaitand (626655) | more than 5 years ago | (#26569205)

Java would probably be the best choice. Not so much because it is the best choice as because it is the most popular choice, especially for paid work.

For quick and dirty go with Python or Perl. Python is pretty by default (coding style is built into the language itself), Perl can be written to be prettier than Python or uglier than anything else imaginable. According to this study Perl is still more popular and considering CPAN's goodness there are probably more third party modules available for Perl.

Ow... (1)

CHJacobsen (1183809) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568337)

Ruby still ahead of Python?

I died a little inside...

Re:Ow... (1)

The_Angry_Canadian (1156097) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568459)

You use python ?!

I died a little inside...

Re:Ow... (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26568761)

You use python ?!

I died a little inside...

Now I have two reasons to use Python.

Black Duck Software? (4, Informative)

ChienAndalu (1293930) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568361)

Seriously, who ever heard of that company? Anyway, here [blackducksoftware.com] is their actual press release, including a bogus list with 10 random apps I never heard of.

And by the way, Python got 10%.

Re:Black Duck Software? (3, Informative)

adamkennedy (121032) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568631)

> Seriously, who ever heard of that company?

They're the guys that do the Koders.com code search engine [koders.com] .

Re:Black Duck Software? (5, Insightful)

jonaskoelker (922170) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568787)

Anyway, here [blackducksoftware.com] is their actual press release

Thanks for that.

Let's compare "here" with the summary. "Here":

47% of these newly created projects used the C language. Java came in as the number two language of choice at nearly 28%. Third was Javascript at over 20%. In the world of scripting, nearly 18% of the projects chose to use Perl

Summary:

47 per cent â" of new projects last year used C. [...] Next in popularity after C came Java, with 28 per cent. In scripting, JavaScript came out on top with 20 per cent, followed by Perl with 18 per cent.

I note that 47+28+20+18 > 100, so somewhere there's a move from one "percentage pie" to the next. I would like to know which language is in which pie, and more importantly why, and why there aren't numbers for one big pie with everyone in it. I'd also like to know why the summary (which is taken from the register) and the "here" seem to be ambiguous, when read together, about which pie javascript goes into.

I don't think malice is a good explanation for all of this, so I'll assume incompetence. That goes well with the 98%-of-everything-is-crap law ;)

Re:Black Duck Software? (1)

ChienAndalu (1293930) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568891)

I guess it's because some projects use multiple languages.

Re:Black Duck Software? (4, Informative)

talexb (223672) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568911)

From TFA: "Note, most projects used more than one language and these results are based on the number of projects using a given language, not the number of lines of code created."

There, I fixed that for you. :)

Re:Black Duck Software? (1)

shaitand (626655) | more than 5 years ago | (#26569233)

I think the two pies are compiled versus scripted languages. In the old school world coding in scripted languages isn't considered programming and their description claims the first group as programming languages and the second as scripting languages.

Ruby might not have the market share yet (1)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568421)

... but it is very much in demand. A lot of large projects are now being done in Python and Ruby, and while I know that Python has grown in popularity, I have not been seeing much demand for python programmers, but I have for Ruby.

Re:Ruby might not have the market share yet (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26568613)

You keep telling yourself that, sizzlechest.

H1B Anthem (3, Funny)

Penguinshit (591885) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568467)

Jose can you C? Then you've got a job at HP!

C(++) is here to stay! (3, Insightful)

CuteSteveJobs (1343851) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568539)

Our company's flagship product was written 15 years ago. When we did it, we had to choose a language. Nearly considered Pascal and all the other flavors of the month. C has its shortcomings for sure, but all these years later we're still here, it's still well supported and plenty of people know how to write it. Improvements like recompile-while-running, modern debuggers and error trapping have made it a much more productive environment.

Yes. It certainly has its flaws, but I don't think we could have made a better choice. If I had to pick another language to still be active in another 15 years, that would be it.

Re:C(++) is here to stay! (1)

lawpoop (604919) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568829)

Do you think java has gotten out of the phase of trendiness?

I'm looking to start learning a real language, to make my career more secure. Although I would like to learn c, c++, or even lisp, just for the fulfillment, when I look at monster.com ads, java is the only non-niche language that consistently shows up. Do you think there is an install base building for java, or not?

Re:C(++) is here to stay! (1)

AuMatar (183847) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568901)

There's plenty of jobs out there for Java. There's also plenty out there for C and C++, and quite a few for the popular webpage languages (php, perl, etc). If you aren't seeing those constantly, you're not looking very hard. What there's not many out there for are the current fad languages (python, ruby) or functional ones (lisp, scheme, etc).

Re:C(++) is here to stay! (1)

FishWithAHammer (957772) | more than 5 years ago | (#26569035)

Java crapped out of the rich-web-content field for the most part, but there is a crazy amount of Java development done outside the browser.

Python redacted? Rubymandering! (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26568563)

The linked article was based on a post from the Black Duck news release that outlines language popularity briefly. From the real source, "..Python at nearly 10% and Ruby at 6%," was replaced with simply "and Ruby six per cent."

Why? Out of all the languages mentioned, why remove only the pen-ultimate?

130% ?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26568567)

47 + 28 + 20 + 18 + 11 + 6 = 130

Re:130% ?? (1)

mastergoon (648848) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568701)

I believe projects using scripting languages were placed in a separate category for these statistics.

RTFA (2, Informative)

DragonWriter (970822) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568913)

47 + 28 + 20 + 18 + 11 + 6 = 130

The percentages are the percentages of projects that used the language.

TFA notes that most projects used more than one language.

Ergo, if you add up the percentages of the projects that use each language for every language in the survey (not all are reported in TFA), you will get some number > 150% (since more than half of the projects used at least two languages) and possibly much greater than that.

C? Here's the problem (0, Troll)

bogaboga (793279) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568619)

While I would not like to start a flame war of words, I have an issue with Open Source Projects. There is one important statistic we cannot overlook; an over whelming number of OSS projects are non starters!

In other words, most of them die before they are even borne. Now, the author of this piece should have gotten us some stats on how many of these projects actually become something useful.

Re:C? Here's the problem (2, Insightful)

bnenning (58349) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568791)

In other words, most of them die before they are even borne.

Quite true, as it is with commercial projects. It's just that you never see those.

Re:C? Here's the problem (1)

Steauengeglase (512315) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568975)

I know better than responding to flame-bait, but I can't count the number of proprietary projects (and to that effect start-up companies) that die before they even begin. This is a nature of software and everything else. People start dumb projects, half-finish idiotic sentences and waste money on power tools that rust in their garages. So long as they learn while they are spinning their wheels and don't waste a ton of cash in the process everything is fine.

Apples and Oranges (1)

93 Escort Wagon (326346) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568627)

Why throw JavaScript in there? The rest are server-side languages, while JavaScript is client-side.

Okay, I realize Java can be both - but I suspect the vast majority of its uses anymore are at the server end. You don't see it on the client side all that much anymore (and personally, I'm grateful for that).

Re:Apples and Oranges (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26568725)

Who said these are all web based or client-server apps.. what about regular old fashioned desktop apps?!

Re:Apples and Oranges (1)

DragonWriter (970822) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568769)

Why throw JavaScript in there? The rest are server-side languages, while JavaScript is client-side.

JavaScript is used for scripting in several non-web application, is used as a server side language for web apps, and is used as the predominant client-side scripting language for the web. It is not even close to exclusively a "client-side language", though the use which has made it ubiquitous is its use in that role.

And most of the other languages there aren't exclusively "client-side" or "server-side", either (a distinction that would only makes sense in regard to their use in client-server applications, usually web apps, which, while popular, aren't the only kind of apps.) If I write a desktop GUI app that is neither a client or a server -- which can be done in most, if not all, of the languages listed -- it doesn't make sense to describe that use as "client-side" or "server-side".

C development? (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26568671)

"C Dominated New '08 Open-Source Projects "

.

Also headlined: "C developers lost more jobs in 2008. Java, Ruby, Python, and C# hired more people (and payed higher) in 2008. Twice as many applications roll out for 2008 vs. 2007"

.

.

In other news: "PHP development held flat."

.

Ouch?

The numbers don't add up right in my mind (2, Informative)

jonaskoelker (922170) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568677)

[!scripting: C=47, java=28]

Note that 47+28 = 75, so that leaves 25%. Is C++ really that small? And let's just conveniently forget about C#, Objective C, and the odd app here or there written in lisp/scheme, an ML-like language (SML, ocaml, haskell), ada, pascal, eiffel, fortran, ...

(I assume there isn't a moronic failure to distinguish between C, C++, C--, C# and Csh)

Even more surprising:

[Scripting: js=20, pl=18, php=11, rb=6]

That's 20+18+11+6 = 55 (percent), leaving 45 percent to be fought over by languages not attracting more than 6% of the projects. That takes at least eight languages.

This means we have twelve scripting languages in (reasonably) widespread use. Which eight (or more) remain?

I'm guessing python, bash and lua, but then I'm sorta' blank. I can guess at elisp, guile, QuakeC and the fragment shader language, but I'm kinda' skeptical. Anyone care to guess?

Re:The numbers don't add up right in my mind (2)

Peristarkawan (875561) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568801)

There's some overlap caused by projects that use multiple languages. I wouldn't expect either set of numbers to add up to 100%.

Re:The numbers don't add up right in my mind (1)

jonaskoelker (922170) | more than 5 years ago | (#26569171)

There's some overlap caused by projects that use multiple languages. I wouldn't expect either set of numbers to add up to 100%.

I think they'd have to add up to at least 100%.

But now I think about it, I'm starting to doubt it. Fuck it. I give up trying to figure out what they're trying to say, because they say it so muddily.

Re:The numbers don't add up right in my mind (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26568817)

I agree, but the figures in the original page are different (and still strange):

47% of these newly created projects used the C language. Java came in as the number two language of choice at nearly 28%. Third was Javascript at over 20%.

So javascript is like C and Java.

In the world of scripting, nearly 18% of the projects chose to use Perl while only 11% used PHP. These were both higher than Python at nearly 10% and Ruby at 6%. Note, most projects used more than one language and these results are based on the number of projects using a given language, not the number of lines of code created.

18+10+11+6=45% (and no javascript!)

Imho the only way perl comes ahead of php for coding is if they are counting small scripts or the cspan ...

Abusing the numbers (1)

DragonWriter (970822) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568883)

Note that 47+28 = 75, so that leaves 25%. Is C++ really that small? And let's just conveniently forget about C#, Objective C, and the odd app here or there written in lisp/scheme, an ML-like language (SML, ocaml, haskell), ada, pascal, eiffel, fortran, ...

Note that the survey counts the number of projects that use a language, and TFA explicitly notes that the survey found that most projects use more than one language, so that you can't say that the percent that use some language other than C or Java = 100% - (percent using C) - (percent using Java).

[Scripting: js=20, pl=18, php=11, rb=6]

That's 20+18+11+6 = 55 (percent), leaving 45 percent to be fought over by languages not attracting more than 6% of the projects. That takes at least eight languages.

Scripting and !Scripting do not appear to separate universes, looking both at TFA and the press release it is based on; they appear to be presenting the percentage of the total pool of ~17,000 new projects that use each language, and just grouping the numbers for the scripting and non-scripting languages (but not taking them out of separate pools). So this conclusion appears to be invalid as well.

Re:Abusing the numbers (1)

jonaskoelker (922170) | more than 5 years ago | (#26569153)

so that you can't say that the percent that use some language other than C or Java = 100% - (percent using C) - (percent using Java).

That's true. I can say, though, that languages other than C or Java which are in the !scripting category must take up at least (100 - $C - $JAVA) percent.

That is, unless you can have a program written in zero or fewer languages ;)

But then again, I don't know what makes a project written in a particular language. If my C code compiles fine with g++, is it written in C++? Why not? :)

how stupid (3, Insightful)

Lord Ender (156273) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568741)

What the hell does "scripting" even mean? Perl and Ruby are the same class of language as C. Javascript is an entirely different beast. Whoever categorized Ruby and Javascript together must be completely ignorant of programming.

God wrote in Lisp (2, Informative)

argent (18001) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568831)

Perl and Ruby are the same class of language as C.

Perl and Ruby are much higher level languages than C. They're no Lisp, but they're nothing like C.

Re:how stupid (1)

Daniel Dvorkin (106857) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568871)

There are a lot of people, here on /. as well as elsewhere, who loftily declare that Perl, Ruby, Python, and yes, JavaScript are all "scripting" languages and thus beneath the dignity of those who use "programming" languages such as C, C++, Java, etc. It's absurd, of course, since increasingly large apps are written entirely in "scripting" languages and people who pride themselves on using "programming" languages are these days just as dependent on multiple layers of abstraction as the "scripters" are, but there you go. I'm guessing that whoever came up with the distinction you mentioned falls into this camp.

Re:how stupid (3, Insightful)

kc8apf (89233) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568963)

Yes because a compiled, statically-typed, procedural language (C) has everything in common with an interpreted, dynamically-typed, object-oriented language.

Re:how stupid (1, Insightful)

Lord Ender (156273) | more than 5 years ago | (#26569197)

Being "interpreted" is not a property of the language, merely of some implementation of the language.

Re:how stupid (1)

Korin43 (881732) | more than 5 years ago | (#26569009)

I was under the impression that they are 'scripting languages' because they don't compile.

Re:how stupid (2, Insightful)

TheDugong (701481) | more than 5 years ago | (#26569023)

Come back to me when you have written an OS Kernel in Ruby and Perl and then I might agree with your second sentance.

Open source != popularity (2, Insightful)

nsayer (86181) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568785)

One thing that PHB types need to be made aware of is that the level of use within open source projects does not necessarily imply usage in general. I would expect PHP to be used less to make open source projects. Rather, I would expect it to be used to build websites, which tend to be heavily customized things that don't need to be replicated across sites the same way that open source software tends to be.

Obviously there are exceptions for things like Squirrelmail or PHPBB, but they don't invalidate my argument.

open source fags dominated by aids (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26568889)

go die you faggots. faggots are worthless and should all die from the aids.

Small translation (1)

DiegoBravo (324012) | more than 5 years ago | (#26568951)

Survey says C dominated new '08 O.S. projects

TO:

Survey finds most '08 new Open source projects causing vulnerabilities for the following years.

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