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Fraudsters Abusing Canada's Do-Not-Call List

Soulskill posted more than 5 years ago | from the who-thought-this-was-a-good-idea dept.

Privacy 229

J ROC writes "Phone numbers on Canada's Do-Not-Call registry have apparently been sold to off-shore telemarketers, scam artists, and other ne'er-do-wells, according to reports in the Globe & Mail and CBC News. The CRTC, which runs the registry, sells lists of phone numbers online for a small fee; making it available to anybody who might be interested in buying it, including con artists. I guess this explains why, ever since I added my number to the registry, I've been getting phone calls from 000-000-0000 trying to interest me in some free vacation scam. Canada's Privacy Commissioner is currently investigating."

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omg (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26588371)

Yeah, that's been happening to me too, both my cell phones and my home phone.

yes, I have two cell phones,
I am that cool.

Re:omg (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26588413)

You know what? I took the plunge and installed Linux today. Top Hat or some hat version. But now I have a problem. I'm getting these big red lesions all over me. I'm not allergic to anything that would cause that, and I haven't become infected with any diseases, my doctor checked me out fine. Then I figured out what Linux really is. Open Sores. Linux is killing me! Help!

Re:omg (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26588581)

Wow, that sucks. I bet it rained on your wedding day too.

What Idiots (4, Insightful)

kenj0418 (230916) | more than 5 years ago | (#26588421)

What idiots -- Illegally contact people that you already know are especially hostile toward dealing with you. How many sales do they actually expect to make?

Re:What Idiots (4, Informative)

MrKevvy (85565) | more than 5 years ago | (#26588481)

re: "What idiots -- Illegally contact people that you already know are especially hostile toward dealing with you. How many sales do they actually expect to make?"

Just as with spam, the telemarketer gangs don't make money off of sales. Rather, they make money off of selling their "service" to the "companies" whose "products" are being advertised. So even if there are no sales at all, they still profit.

Re:What Idiots (3, Insightful)

rolfwind (528248) | more than 5 years ago | (#26588895)

Just as with spam, the telemarketer gangs don't make money off of sales. Rather, they make money off of selling their "service" to the "companies" whose "products" are being advertised. So even if there are no sales at all, they still profit.

However, companies don't keep using tactics that aren't profitable, so if there were no sales, there would be no reason for those companies to buy telemarketing service - at least from that provider. In most businesses, repeat customers are the key to long term success and I suspect telemarketer service providers are not immune to that.

Re:What Idiots (1)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589145)

Yes, but until they learn, the telescammers can rip off those companies.

Re:What Idiots (1)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589259)

I'm sure they make SOME sales. Like spam, it only take one guillible person out of 1000 to make profit.

The lesson I learned:

- You can't trust the government with your data. Whether it's stolen social security numbers, do not call lists, or medical information, the government WILL be used and abused. Power corrupts politicians; they don't care.

Re:What Idiots (3, Insightful)

pnewhook (788591) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589627)

- You can't trust the government with your data. Whether it's stolen social security numbers, do not call lists, or medical information, the government WILL be used and abused. Power corrupts politicians; they don't care.

Do you believe the politicians you vote for have anything to do with peoples private data? Your data is being compromised by lowly paid swivel servants that have the same job regardless of what party is elected in.

Fine the idiots who are paying (1)

davecb (6526) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589739)

And one can stop spam by using the same technique that both Canada and the U.S. use for scams : charge the company that's paying for it.

Mind you, that does require extra staffing for the fraud squad! A suitable levels of fines applied to the companies who pay for this dreck should nicely cover it.

Hmmn, time to write to my MP!

--dave

Re:What Idiots (1)

INT_QRK (1043164) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589745)

Does the fact that the agency responsible for maintaining the do-not-call list sells said list to telemarketers stand out to anyone else? Am I reading this right? That, in and of itself, should be a major political scandal demanding the head of the Agency Head (OK, figuratively! I meant job!). This situation demands an example be made.

Re:What Idiots (2, Interesting)

Z00L00K (682162) | more than 5 years ago | (#26588583)

The penalties for telemarketers are far too low.

Make it punishable to try to market anything using hidden of forged numbers, and let that punishment also propagate to the company whose product is promoted.

Re:What Idiots (2, Informative)

goaliemn (19761) | more than 5 years ago | (#26588909)

Technically, the telemarketers aren't breaking the do not call list laws. They aren't in canada.

I'm in the US and recently have had canadian based companies calling me.. I tell them I'm on the do not call list "we're in Canada so the US list doesn't apply to us" Canuck companies are doing the same thing now.

Re:What Idiots (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Psychopath (18031) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589151)

Technically, the telemarketers aren't breaking the do not call list laws. They aren't in canada.

I'm in the US and recently have had canadian based companies calling me.. I tell them I'm on the do not call list "we're in Canada so the US list doesn't apply to us" Canuck companies are doing the same thing now.

That's not exactly correct. Technically, they are breaking the law. They just can't be prosecuted easily.

Re:What Idiots (1)

Z00L00K (682162) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589691)

Given enough incentive a bounty hunter may be able to take care of that.

Re:What Idiots (0)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589293)

>>>"we're in Canada so the US list doesn't apply to us"

Not yet.

After we annex the provinces (except Quebec) and turn them into states, you'll be just as liable to U.S. law as all the rest. Anyway I don't have any Canadian "looneys" so I'll hang up now.

Re:What Idiots (3, Funny)

pnewhook (788591) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589653)

After we annex the provinces (except Quebec) and turn them into states, you'll be just as liable to U.S. law as all the rest.

Ha! Don't forget Canada has more oil reserves than Saudi Arabia. Once oil goes up again we will simply buy the debt ridden US and you will wake up in a province! Bwuu ha ha ha!

Re:What Idiots (1)

ceoyoyo (59147) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589613)

There have been several rounds of US scammers calling people in Canada too. They claim you've won a free cruise or vacation.

I talked to them to see where it would go one time. All they needed for me to claim my prize was my credit card information so they could "confirm my hotel reservation." Riiight. I mentioned that credit card fraud is frowned upon and they had the guts to quote some US law.

Re:What Idiots (1)

Z00L00K (682162) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589659)

Maybe if you have some other card that isn't a credit card, like some rebate card or so you can give them that number.

Will keep them busy for a few moments extra at least!

Re:What Idiots (2, Interesting)

Cennon (837504) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589685)

I used to work as a caller for a marketing research company in Canada (read: surveys - NO sales), and we called the U.S. more often than not. We ran into a lot of people that would honk on mightily about their rights regarding the do-not-call list, not realizing that - at the time, at least - we were exempt by virtue of our business: opinions, not sales.

I can't imagine ever telling a person that 'the US list doesn't apply to us'. I wonder if they were actually in Canada, or just saying so (the telemarketer equivalent of a maple leaf on their backpack.)

It doesn't do any business any good to ignore the local laws. The logic of a previous post applies: - if people don't want to be talked to, why bother badgering them? There's plenty of other people to talk to.

However, it would have been nice (and more effiicient) if people realized that the do-not-call list was limited to sales. If they want it changed, they should talk to the people in charge of the legislation. If what people want is "no businesses I don't know may call me, EVER", they need to write a law that states that.

Re:What Idiots (1)

FatdogHaiku (978357) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589905)

That would be a great business tool! Your company makes something that competes with my company, so I pay the phone scammers to promote your product and your company gets sanctioned or punished...
Dollar for dollar I'll bet that's a lot more effective than marketing my own product or having a better product, just thin out the competition.

Re:What Idiots (3, Insightful)

PopeRatzo (965947) | more than 5 years ago | (#26588741)

What idiots

I'm trying to think of what should be done with someone so sleazy as to do this.

I understand Guantanamo Bay's going to be vacant next year. Not even Amnesty International would mind if we put them there.

Spammers, too, while we're at it. Although I suppose if we lock them up we have to feed them.

I'm a man of peace, but I could take my nickel-plated M1911A1 to their heads and then enjoy a nice meal and peaceful night's sleep with no problem at all. Actually, I'm getting a little dreamy just thinking about being able to use my email address without having to worry about getting 40 of the same message asking if I want to "be more man", or having to squint at my phone's caller ID so I don't have to deal with some poor, bored young woman offering me aluminum siding or better interest rates.

Re:What Idiots (1)

calmofthestorm (1344385) | more than 5 years ago | (#26588985)

The amount of money we'd spend feeding them is negligible compared to the amount of money we'd save in the mailservers alone. Imagine how many spam messages are relayed every day. Even if no human ever reads it?

Plus, the internet isn't a truck, it's a series of tubes...(but if we assume 500 bytes per spam (a low number), then one 350 MB movie is about 700000 spam messages)

Re:What Idiots (1)

Linuss (1305295) | more than 5 years ago | (#26588997)

We don't have to feed them, with the amount of spam they produce it shouldn't be long before it becomes so overwhelming that it materializes into everyones favourite meat-in-a-can!

Re:What Idiots (1)

canajin56 (660655) | more than 5 years ago | (#26588907)

I get several such calls per day, even on cellphones. I'm not even on the registry. They just have an autodialer walking through every number! My wife and I have adjacent cell numbers, and she gets called seconds after I hit "ignore" on my cell. If I do answer it goes a bit like this.
"Hello Sir, you've won a free vacation, I just need some information to send you your free tickets, absolutely free"
"I doubt that you criminal."
"Fair enough" *click*

Re:What Idiots (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26589759)

I had a buddy that sold encyclopedias one summer, he was great at it. He specifically looked for no soliciting signs. Chances are the husband put up the sign because the wife would buy anything.

I would imagine the same thing applies to the phone. I know my wife can't say no to a "charity" on the phone.

Re:What Idiots (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26589907)

Let's see: Gov't makes plan. Plan has reverse effect of what was intended. Yeah, that's totally unpredictable.

Anyone who thought the gov't could actually do something properly doesn't understand gov't.

Re:What Idiots (1)

b4upoo (166390) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589935)

They will make a ton of sales. Back in 1985 we had a local outfit with a scam pitch that went along these lines: They had a sucker list from affiliated sellers of people who had been ripped off for big sums or repeatedly. The pitch went that the sales person was a retired FBI agent who was working to catch, collect and turn over criminal salesmen. He asked $500. as an up front fee. A nice long month would follow before the mark got a second call indicating that they had the offending salesman and his company in close sight and only needed another, larger sum to complete the investigation in such a way as it would be bundled up and handed to the cops in such a way that prosecution was assured and that pay back would be part of sentencing. As usual many people fell for the pitch.

Double Up (3, Insightful)

Guy G (783837) | more than 5 years ago | (#26588429)

It looks like we now need a do-not-call, do-not-call list!!

Re:Double Up (2, Insightful)

zoomshorts (137587) | more than 5 years ago | (#26588791)

What we need is a "My Data is worth $5000.00 to me" so IF you use my data,
YOU OWE ME $5000.00 per disclosure.

IF My data is worth anything, it is worth MORE to me than you.

Turn the idiots in to a collection agency and ruin their credit, etc.

Simple.

Re:Double Up (0)

Linuss (1305295) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589003)

You're trying too hard. A shotgun would be so much more efficient. And easier.

Re:Double Up (1)

Dogtanian (588974) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589049)

What we need is a "My Data is worth $5000.00 to me" so IF you use my data, YOU OWE ME $5000.00 per disclosure. IF My data is worth anything, it is worth MORE to me than you. Turn the idiots in to a collection agency and ruin their credit, etc. Simple.

You're right- it's really that simple! And not just another minor variant on that stupid quasi-legalistic solution that IANALs on Slashdot propose every time a topic like this comes up.

This is the geek equivalent of guys who mouth off in pubs about how politicians are stupid and how their simple ideas would put the world to rights.

If it was really that simple, someone would have done it already- if only for the money.

Re:Double Up (1)

timeOday (582209) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589557)

Is it that hard? Maybe it's just me, but the US do-not-call list has been extremely effective. I did get a spam call about a week ago (from Bank of America - thanks guys) and it was pretty surprising, because it had been so long, whereas before the list it was all the time. It's a piece of legislative action I'm very happy with, probably the high point of the Bush legacy :)

Re:Double Up (5, Interesting)

walt-sjc (145127) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589885)

No.... What we need are callerID numbers that are always transmitted and accurate. We need carriers to be held liable for bogus caller ID info transmitted on their networks. No exceptions.

This makes it a little harder for voip termination providers, but it can and needs to be done. Make it a criminal penalty to knowingly use bogus or forged callerID (allowing the loophole to use a number that BELONGS to you.)

Currently, (and I've mentioned this several times in the past) I use Asterisk for my phone system. In fact, I've been using it for over 5 years now (It is ROCK SOLID)

I've also had a few simple rules setup. First, I have a white list of close family and friends (those calls always go through, with callerID name re-writing so I see it's Bill and not "Wireless Caller".) Second, local calls are allowed during waking hours to get right through. At night, they have to press 1 to leave a message or press 5 to ring through. Third, tollfree numbers and NO callerID ALWAYS have to press 5 to ring through. Finally, the blacklist which just gives a disconnect tone sequence and phone company like message that the number is disconnected :-)

What have these rules done for me?

First, telemarketing calls are all blocked - along with charity solicitations and political crap. The sole exception (due to my rule set) was a couple calls from LOCAL political volunteers (I actually don't mind those - at least they are HUMAN.)

Second, wrong numbers in the middle of the night totally stopped.

I have my phone back. I can have dinner in peace. I sleep at night!

That does it! (5, Funny)

jonadab (583620) | more than 5 years ago | (#26588433)

That's it! I'm moving to... oh, wait. Nevermind.

Re:That does it! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26589475)

Hmm... telemarketers or Obama?

Telemarketers it is.

CRTC Garbage. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26588447)

Leave it to the bleeding CRTC to pull something like this.

Those of us whom have signed up for your "please call me more frequently than normal" list did NOT agree to have you sell our names to Sook-Mehoff Incorporated.

I find myself even further disgusted by the CRTC's actions. How can something like this be allowed to happen?

Government? You anywhere to be found? *Can you hear me..me..me..me..me...*

To the CRTC: Do something right, or don't even bother doing it at all.

Re:CRTC Garbage. (1)

PIBM (588930) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589071)

How are people supposed not to call you, if they don't have the list ? That list has to be handed out so people will skip you when you are on it.

Thing is, it seems the law is not strong enough, and hard to enforce oversea.

Maybe make sure to sell only the list to canadians and have them suffer for selling it ? But then I guess it's hard to know 'who' leaked it too.

Personnaly, all the spam phone calls I used to get stopped. I was previously getting between 2 and 4 calls per months (Mostly free bahamas vacation, just had to give your name, credit card number and expiration date to validate you were over 18, and some junkie out of some part of africa who had managed to get 50 millions locked up because he had not paid his taxes, which amounted to 20k, and needed to provide it in order to get the money out .. blah blah blah), and I've been on the list for what, 4 months ? That's a good chance of it being very effective.

Simple answer (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26588483)

Log calls and invoice the registry operator for your time. Don't know about anybody else but if I'm doing something involved (eg: accounts, coding, electronics) it takes me 10 - 15 minutes to get back to where I was.

My phones are for the benefit of family, friends, buisness and emergencies. Other interruptions are simply not welcome.

Do Not Call - What a joke (5, Funny)

Xoron101 (860506) | more than 5 years ago | (#26588487)

I added my cell, the wife's cell and our home phone number to the list. A month or so later, I got my first telemarketer call.

I called up the government's do not call list registry to complain, but they hung up on me and told me that they weren't interested in what I was selling. They asked "how would I like it if they called me at home during dinner", and asked to be taken off of my call list

Re:Do Not Call - What a joke (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26588755)

I added my cell, the wife's cell and our home phone number to the list. A month or so later, I got my first telemarketer call.

I called up the government's do not call list registry to complain, but they hung up on me and told me that they weren't interested in what I was selling. They asked "how would I like it if they called me at home during dinner", and asked to be taken off of my call list

BULLshizz

Re:Do Not Call - What a joke (1)

shentino (1139071) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589587)

He was making a joke you insensitive clod!

I saw that one coming...(I'm in Canada) (4, Informative)

gapagos (1264716) | more than 5 years ago | (#26588497)

That's why I never wanted to sign up for that list in the 1st place. (I'm from Ottawa, Canada)
Thankfully, I almost never get any marketing call on my cellphone, the only ones I do (and they're annoying) are from the RBC Royal Bank trying to sell me insurance, and I find that already annoying.

Since I moved to Montréal, I don't use a land phone anymore, so the telemarketer calls stopped (except for my god damn bank still).

BUT I heard of people who added their CELLPHONE number to the Do-Not-Call list and have received telemarketer calls only since then.

The typical and most annoying telemarketer call you tend to receive (and in Ottawa, I received that specific one at least 5 times a month) is:

Number 123-456-7890 calling
*Sound of fog horn*
Automatic voice: "Hello, this is your captain calling... Congratulations, you've won a trip to..."

Or sometimes it's a number 000-000-0000 like from the summary, I can confirm that. It's ANNOYING AS HELL.

Re:I saw that one coming...(I'm in Canada) (3, Insightful)

nattt (568106) | more than 5 years ago | (#26588531)

That is the most annoying call ever. I blame bell for all this. THey're making money of each scam call in network fees.

Re:I saw that one coming...(I'm in Canada) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26588547)

I've been getting this calls before they even made that do not call list (from Toronto, Ontario). I've gotten that captain one about 4 times in the past 2 months. And most of the time the numbers are 100-000-0000 for me.

Re:I saw that one coming...(I'm in Canada) (1)

kent_eh (543303) | more than 5 years ago | (#26588813)

I've also seen an increase in the usual scam calls recently, and it seems to be pretty evenly spread across all the phones I answer (home, 3 cell, 1 listed work and 1 unlisted work number). Only the home number is on the DNC list.
I think it's a combination of effects. Perhaps a handful of scammers going online simultaneously, wardialling, and teh DNC list being abused.

And, really, is anyone surprised that someone who is already doing something illegal (telephone scams) wouldn't illegaly use the DNC list?

Re:I saw that one coming...(I'm in Canada) (2, Funny)

cperciva (102828) | more than 5 years ago | (#26588639)

*Sound of fog horn*

I agree, that's the most irritating call I've ever gotten. I normally hang up on telemarketers, but now I make a point of trying to keep that one on the line as long as possible.

Re:I saw that one coming...(I'm in Canada) (3, Interesting)

Bob_Sheep (988029) | more than 5 years ago | (#26588671)

I think that is the first time I have heard of international telemarketing. I have heard the exact same recorded message here in the UK.

Re:I saw that one coming...(I'm in Canada) (1)

Tony Hoyle (11698) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589211)

Happens all the time... Our main line is on TPS and gets 2-3 calls a week from recorded messages with american accents saying we've won something implausible.

We just leave it off the hook. If they're prepared to pay international call rates for their scam they're going to pay as much as I can fleece them for.

Re:I saw that one coming...(I'm in Canada) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26588707)

"the only ones I do (and they're annoying) are from the RBC Royal Bank trying to sell me insurance, "

That sure is a nice cellphone you got there, sure would be a shame if something happened to it. Maybe you'd better buy some 'insurance'

Re:I saw that one coming...(I'm in Canada) (1)

Trevin (570491) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589103)

I wonder if that's the same scammer who's been calling me almost every day for the last two months? My caller ID box shows a Florida number (561-xxx-xxxx, which could be a fake), so I never pick up, but the caller never left a message until just last week. Then I had his pitch captured on my voice mail: it was from "Imperial Majesty Cruise Lines" claiming I've received a free cruise. I've reported every instance to the national Do Not Call registry [donotcall.gov] , but the calls just kept coming until a few days ago.

I think sending the FTC a complete transcript of each voice mail message may have helped.

Re:I saw that one coming...(I'm in Canada) (1)

Trevin (570491) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589837)

I take that back -- the scammer called again just now.

Re:I saw that one coming...(I'm in Canada) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26589173)

If telemarketers are all calling from 123-456-7890 or 000-000-0000, then why not program your phone to simply ignore calls from these numbers?

Re:I saw that one coming...(I'm in Canada) (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26589427)

That's why I never wanted to sign up for that list in the 1st place. (I'm from Ottawa, Canada)

(except for my god damn bank still)

Sorry, but you are ignorant. +Informative is entirely undeserved. This is YOUR PROBLEM.

First off, pre-existing business relationships never fall under the category of telemarketing. They are specifically exempt. That is why your bank can call you on your cell phone. You need to inform them that they can no longer call you and threaten to terminate your business relationship when they do. Then actually grow a pair and terminate it when they do. Walk in and talk to a branch manager and send a letter to the regional management stating that you intend to do so, and another letter/conversation when you actually do. That will affect them. It is your failure to properly deal with your own bank.

I used to do database consulting for a Telemarketing company and I was made responsible for creating a system that checked their own lists against the Canadian registry as well as the US registry. It is IMPOSSIBLE to create a registry in which the information is not made available to the same people you hate. I didn't like them either, I just worked for the devil for awhile. Had to eat you know.

When you don't put your number into that registry you don't ever have the right to complain since both the Telemarketers that are in compliance and the offending ones have no idea that you are on the list. You really think the offending ones are using the lists of people that hate telemarketers? I can promise you it is not the case in the US. The firms in the US love the lists since calling the people on it is a waste of time and money.

Not putting your number on that list actually hurts you more than helps. The moment any marketer or list broker *thinks* your number is active with a person on the other end your number will make it to everyone within 90 days. I SWEAR IT IS TRUE.

At least with the registries most sane telemarketing firms religiously scrub their own lists against them. They don't want to risk the fines. They also don't want to risk attention from the government. In the case of the US, once attention came from attorney generals from a state they wrote off *the whole state*.

I can tell you that I found access to lists for *everything*. The telephone companies would tell us what ranges were active, what were reserved, special ranges, etc. Just like TCP/IP defines 192.168.x.x do be a private network only, there are the same rules created for 10 digit phone numbers.

I could even get at the time every single cell phone number range in the US. No shit. Why?

Calling a cell phone was considered insanity. Do it enough and the cell phone company itself will *butt fuck* you into oblivion since you are messing with their systems and pissing off their customers. You are not just messing with the customers, but costing the cell phone company money. All that system bandwidth you suck up could have been sold to one of their customers. In fact, I know in the US it is illegal to telemarket to a cell phone *PERIOD*. That is why I used the cell phone lists at the time to scrub out any cell phones in my clients database.

Put simply, the vast majority of so-called legitimate telemarketing firms were in compliance with the registries and not putting your number on the registry was just stupid.

As for the jerks that are calling anyways, well that is Canada's fault for not actually spending the resources to enforce the lists in the first place. They may have well just given hand jobs to all the telemarketing execs.

I can tell you that US is far more serious. The FCC and attorney generals were very vigilant in prosecuting offenders and telemarketing firms that violated the lists, or called cell phones, were quickly given the shaft by some government agency.

Putting your number on the US registry *plain fucking works*.

Re:I saw that one coming...(I'm in Canada) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26589921)

Number 123-456-7890 calling
*Sound of fog horn*
Automatic voice: "Hello, this is your captain calling... Congratulations, you've won a trip to..."

Or sometimes it's a number 000-000-0000 like from the summary, I can confirm that. It's ANNOYING AS HELL.

Yup, I've got both of these ... (I'm in Waterloo, Ontario.)

After having signed up for the DNC list, I'd say that I get fewer calls of the "sponsor my charity" type, and way more calls from the Captain, whom I wish we could make walk off the plank.

And here I thought I was imaging it (3, Interesting)

AsmordeanX (615669) | more than 5 years ago | (#26588519)

Wow, good job CRTC.

My telemarketing calls went from about 2 a week to 6+. Good thing I'm rarely home and they get the answering machine instead.

Re:And here I thought I was imaging it (4, Informative)

mevets (322601) | more than 5 years ago | (#26588703)

I don't know if these help yet, but apparently if you make your answering machine/voice mail message start with a "disconnected signal" (http://www.telephonetribute.com/signal_and_circuit_conditions.htm) you can discourage autodialers. Somebody even markets a little device (telezapper) to do this for you.

I have no love for the CRTC, but the pressure probably came from elected officials via heavy lobbying. Regardless, after years of "click here to be removed from the list", how anyone didn't see this coming is beyond me.

Re:And here I thought I was imaging it (1)

cool_arrow (881921) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589751)

I've been getting alot of telemarketing calls lately and thought about getting one of those devices that play the "disconnected signal". Then I figured there might be a product to filter the calls with some kind of blacklist/whitelist before they reach my phone. Hang-up on blacklisted numbers while all other calls are then connected to my home phone which would then ring. I could not find anything off the shelf to do this however - at least no solutions where I did not have to answer the calls via my computer.

Re:And here I thought I was imaging it (1)

Scrameustache (459504) | more than 5 years ago | (#26588885)

Wow, good job CRTC.

My telemarketing calls went from about 2 a week to 6+. Good thing I'm rarely home and they get the answering machine instead.

If you read the CRTC charter carefully, you'll see that it exist to protect the Canadian INDUSTRY of telecommunication.
Not the consumers.

Re:And here I thought I was imaging it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26588937)

Good thing I'm rarely home and they get the answering machine instead.

In that case you'll also want to sign up for the Do Not Burgle list, noting which hours you're out of the house.

It's for your own benefit. Don't worry, we're only selling the information to legitimate thieves.

Re:And here I thought I was imaging it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26589923)

Same here. The are several times more frequent. Plus they are 10x as annoying as before, and I've been following the "press 3 to be removed from our list" for months, and the same companies keep on calling -- i.e. they are flagrantly breaking the law.

Last time a company called I spoke to a human and found out their name, "Credit Card Services", that they were in Texas, that they knew they were calling Canada and they were familiar with the law (they said they had 31 days to remove me from the list -- but obviously hadn't actually done that). They *refused* to provide a mailing address or their phone number (yet somehow still wanted to do business).

I've had it. I submitted a complaint to the CRTC with the meager information I had. I'm going to waste the company's time and money by speaking with a human every time they call.

Remove me from Your list! (4, Funny)

madcat2c (1292296) | more than 5 years ago | (#26588559)

If you no longer wish to receive our emails for the crap we sell, just reply by email with the following:
Sunject:I am a real, valid email address
Body:
Your age
Number of children
Do you own a home?
Take prescription meds?

And we promise to remove you forever!

Re:Remove me from Your list! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26588635)

Yeah, me too, unsubscribe please! UNSUBSCRIBE

Re:Remove me from Your list! (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26588905)

Since the Dutch law changed, the new trick is to run the advertising from a temporary company, so they can start a new company every week. If someone no longer want there spam, they say it will take about a week before the request is processed, and you can not yet object to the spam from next weeks company....

Re:Remove me from Your list! (1)

v1 (525388) | more than 5 years ago | (#26588947)

I was just thinking the whole idea of making the DNC list available is kinda counter-productive unless you have some serious teeth behind it.

I wonder if anyone has considered a "do not spam" email registry? That'd go over just about as well.

Re:Remove me from Your list! (1)

TheTapani (1050518) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589361)

Just slightly related, Sweden actually had an opt-out list for email marketing. Let's just say, having a public list of email adresses that are not allowed to be spammed did not work out too well.

Take control yourself (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26588579)

My Fritzbox simply rejects phonecalls with suppressed caller ID.

Re:Take control yourself (3, Interesting)

kent_eh (543303) | more than 5 years ago | (#26588855)

Caller ID?
Oh, right. That feature that my telephone company wants me to pay extra for...
How about the telco refuses to pass calls with invalid caller ID numbers?

Re:Take control yourself (1)

ceoyoyo (59147) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589661)

Most phone companies are happy to block all calls from unidentified and invalid caller ID numbers. For a fee, of course.

How to get around the Do-Not-Call list (2, Insightful)

kpoole55 (1102793) | more than 5 years ago | (#26588631)

I'm in Canada and find, via *69, that these calls are coming from telemarketers with phone numbers in the United States. So, the list is working. We're not getting calls from Canada we're getting them from the States and, likely, there are equivalent scenarios being used to get around do-not-call lists for the States. Since the calls are coming from the States you can try to put your number on their list but they won't accept an area code outside of the U.S. So, that's how you get around the list. Originate your calls for one country from another country that doesn't abide by the do-not-call list. What's going to be needed now are cross border agreements that each country will help enforce the other's do-not-call lists.

Re:How to get around the Do-Not-Call list (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26588901)

That wouldn't really work. even if canada and the US began enforcing each other Do not call lists. Telemarketers would just start calling for India etc.

The simplest answer to all this would be just have phone calls originating outside the country to be blocked by default unless a pass code for the number that you are calling is used.

       

unlist (1)

workbench (875813) | more than 5 years ago | (#26588673)

You can de-register your phone # by doing the following:

To remove a residential, wireless, fax, or VoIP telephone number from the National Do Not Call List (DNCL), you must call the National DNCL Service Line at 1-866-580-DNCL (1-866-580-3625) or by a TTY 1-888-DNCL-TTY (1-888-362-5889) from the number you wish to remove.

from https://www.lnnte-dncl.gc.ca/annins-dereg-eng [lnnte-dncl.gc.ca] .

Re:unlist - (only partly effective) (2)

wfstanle (1188751) | more than 5 years ago | (#26588825)

I think that will not help much if you are already getting telemarketer calls. If your phone number has already been sold by the CRTC then it's out there. It can be sold by the telemarketer and resold much like email addresses and SPAM.

Call Blocking (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26588677)

I get those annoying calls trying to tell me I won a trip all the time. The CRTC has pretty much screwed the do not call list up royally. The only thing I can see the CRTC doing to help is to force the Telcos to make call blocking free so we can all block the annoying numbers for free. That way as soon as we get a telemarketer we can add the number to the block list and never hear from them again.

Not much different in the U.S. (3, Interesting)

Caduceus1 (178942) | more than 5 years ago | (#26588689)

To DNC registry worked well for a while. But then unscrupulous telemarketers started figuring out how to issue bogus number identifications so you can't issue complaints against them, and using an automated system, claiming to be about your auto warranty, or your "credit card company" (not by name), and try to get you to press 1 - at which point you then establish a business relationship with the telemarketer/vendor and they are then exempt from harassing you forever more.

Lately, we have been getting numerous phone calls from "Texas Guaranteed". And now, I'm getting phone calls from a "white pages/yellow pages" company to continue a listing for my fictional company which has never had a listing in any pages since it isn't really real. The funny part is these are from a real person, who gets rude when my wife says that she won't talk to them.

Re:Not much different in the U.S. (1)

CheeseTroll (696413) | more than 5 years ago | (#26588889)

This is my experience, as well. The DNC registry worked great for a while, but the telemarketers are getting bolder every month. They know the odds of getting busted are slim to none.

Re:Not much different in the U.S. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26589181)

This is my experience, as well. The DNC registry worked great for a while, but the scammers are getting bolder every month. They know the odds of getting busted are slim to none.

Fixed.

Hash Tables? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26588735)

Why not just provide a list of hashed phone numbers instead?

Trivial dictionary attack. (1)

ClayJar (126217) | more than 5 years ago | (#26588989)

In this case, there is no effective difference between a list of the numbers themselves and a list of the hashes thereof. You can trivially do a dictionary attack covering the whole phone number space, as there cannot be more than 10^10 phone numbers on the list (given a ten-digit phone number space).

Think about how trivial it is to run an exhaustive search across eight lower-case alphabetic characters. It's easily more than an order of magnitude less work to traverse the entire ten digit phone number space naively.

Now, if you *want* to have some efficiency and you're even minutely intelligent, you don't need to bother traversing the entire space naively. Instead, you take into account that the first three digits are an area code, and therefore populated with significantly fewer than 1000 different values. You can also eliminate several swaths from the trailing seven digits by taking into account a few rules (such as seven-digit phone numbers not beginning with 1 or 0).

Likely the only thing you'd get out of releasing hashes instead of numbers are that someone would make a Windows-only application to sanitize your telemarketing lists for the low, low price of $250 per seat.

Simple solution ... (5, Insightful)

phoxix (161744) | more than 5 years ago | (#26588785)

The CRTC should create a series honey-pot numbers, and give different combinations to those who purchase the lists. Scammers and those-who-sell-to-scammers would not be aware of which numbers are honey-pot numbers, and would call them anyways.

The CRTC could use this to easily weed out the bad from the good.

List Washing (0)

LostCluster (625375) | more than 5 years ago | (#26588803)

Here's the way you do it...

Telemarketer comes up with a list. Telemarketer sends list to the Do-Not-Call team. Do-Not-Callers do the compare, and return only the numbers that were on the telemarketer's list that doesn't match the no-call list.

Telemarketer gains the information of the numbers they can't call, but doesn't gain the whole no-call list unless they had it already.

Re:List Washing (1)

Fnord666 (889225) | more than 5 years ago | (#26588865)

Telemarketer gains the information of the numbers they can't call, but doesn't gain the whole no-call list unless they had it already.

Telemarketer sends in a list of all possible telephone numbers. The numbers removed from the list are the DNC list. Telemarketer recovers his cost by selling the DNC list to others at a price somewhat less than it would cost them to do the same thing that he did.

Re:List Washing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26589069)

Telemarketer sends 0000000 - 9999999 list to the Do-Not-Call team. Do-Not-Callers do the compare, and return only the numbers that were on the telemarketer's list that doesn't match the no-call list......

Re:List Washing (1)

TheTapani (1050518) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589415)

Here's the way you do it...

Telemarketer comes up with a list. Telemarketer sends list to the Do-Not-Call team. Do-Not-Callers do the compare, and return only the numbers that were on the telemarketer's list that doesn't match the no-call list.

No. You prohibit phone advertising.

Re:List Washing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26589895)

I bet that telemarketers have there own do-not-call-list. for instance it would be bad to call the police, high politicians, etc.
All you have to do is get on that list.
"This is a number reserved for insert-funky-3-letter-agency-here. Please never ever call this number again."

000-000-0000 (1)

SIR_Taco (467460) | more than 5 years ago | (#26588927)

I think everyone has been getting these, whether or not you have signed up for the do-not-call list.
I've had 000 calls range from travel/vacation scams to offers from Bell Canada telephone/cell/tv. Really doesn't make me like Bell Canada any more than I do currently (which on a scale of 1-10 is in the negatives now from my last count).

Re:000-000-0000 (1)

ceoyoyo (59147) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589719)

I found a good way to scare them is to tell them they've called a cell phone. I don't think it's technically illegal in Canada to telemarket to a cell, but it seems to scare them anyway.

I had some idiot call me offering fraud protection on my credit card. The company doing it was not actually my bank but was contracted by my bank. I explained to him that he'd made a telemarketing call to a cell phone. He replied that this was the number I'd given to the bank and authorized them to call it. When I told him that I'd authorized MY BANK to call the number, and not his company, he hung up.

First time I've ever been hung up on by a telemarketer.

Wilful acts such as these (1)

erroneus (253617) | more than 5 years ago | (#26588981)

Wilfully abusing systems intended to control or curb malicious or abusive behavior should come with triple the established penalty unless they can show it was somehow accidental beyond a reasonable doubt. But what happens when these calls are coming in from the U.S. or from Pakistan or some such place outside of Canada's jurisdiction? I don't know.

Better idea: ALL outbound calling phone business activities should be properly licensed in some way. Once again, local laws and regulations need to apply...

This is beginning to feel like that stupid form letter with the check boxes saying "your solution advocates a _______ solution and will not work because of one or more of the following ..."

This calls for a vigilante group with super-powers to destroy the perpetrators.

"Your solution advocates a __super-hero__ solution and will not work because __super-heroes_are't_real__" DAMNIT!

Do not call list worked for me. So did the CRTC. (1)

urbanriot (924981) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589043)

I used to receive multiple calls daily on my Bell line after a new phone number was added to the phone book. I registered with both the CRTC do not call list and Michael Geist's ioptout.ca and my the amount of calls I received dropped dramatically within a month or two.

I occasionally had blips where the same number would continually call me, so I filled out the CRTC form for each number, and a very helpful woman tracked them both down - one number was Canadian and enforced to stop calling, the other was American and could not be legally bound to stop, however she politely asked them to stop calling me and they did. For those in this post that claim they contacted the CRTC and they wouldn't help, I don't believe you

Get VoIP (4, Informative)

clarkn0va (807617) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589085)

Two calls from an unsolicited number is all I ever get. After the second call the number simply gets screened and the incoming call gets forwarde--guess where--back to itself. Sometimes I get giddy imagining the telemarketer reciting her pitch to the person in the next cubicle.

Of course, callers with the caller ID of "000-000-0000" or "10" simply get forwarded to the Rejection Hotline. [rejectionhotline.com]

I'm on primus, but I imagine other voip providers have similar functionality, as would asterisk and its ilk.

Do what I do (4, Funny)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589177)

When called, first talk really quietly so they turn their headset up, then use a very sharp whistle (or a foghorn, up to you and how sensitive your neighbors are). Repeat as needed until they hang up.

For some odd reason, I don't get any telemarketer calls anymore. Works better than any do-not-call list.

I HAVE A PLAN! (1)

vawarayer (1035638) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589239)

  1. Anyone can register their number on the Do Not Call List with no verifications wether you're the real owner of that particular number.
  2. The list is being leaked to scammers out there.

Why not register the CRTC to the list? So when THEY receive a call for a free vacation they could issue scammers a fine riiiiiite away?

How I love the CRTC (1)

sabernet (751826) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589299)

More proof that the CRTC is absolute junk. The only thing they're good for is patting Bell on the back and waiting for the FCC to make a decision and claiming it as theirs.

They have no accountability and are responsible for such wonderful things like our horrible TV service and world renowned cellular service.

I mean, seriously, who thought it was a good idea to sell people's private phone numbers without checking up on whomever was requesting it?

It should always have been "You call these people, you are fined. Oh, you don't know who they are? Send us some paperwork and we may send you a list. Until then, I would advise you don't call anyone".

Dammed if you do, Dammed if you don't (1)

Rutefoot (1338385) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589303)

If you don't sign up for the list, you end up in much smaller pool of available numbers for legal telemarketing companies to pull from. Which of course means more calls for fewer people.

If you do sign up for the list, stuff like this happens.

Ha. Dear CRTC: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26589351)

Please remove me from the do not call list, I don't wished to be called anymore. Opps, too late!!

Exactly the reason why... (1)

thrill12 (711899) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589471)

...I am not signing up for a DNC list here in The Netherlands (called "Info Filter").
I have gotten a lot of issues with a local lottery ('National Zip Code Lottery'), and have written them numerous letters to leave me alone. Even the government insisted I put myself on the "Info Filter" list, but I objected citing the fact that the list is run by the spammers themselves.
So I filed a complaint with the foundation that the spammers are in - "Commercial Code Commission" - which is obligated (by their own statute..) to correct mistakes in commercials.
I put in my complaint that they (the lottery) got numerous letters from me that I didn't want on their mailing list, and have 100% proof they have read those letters. The case is accepted, and I am waiting for the lotterys' response, and will seriously consider the courts if they decide negatively.

One Solution (1)

whisper_jeff (680366) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589537)

One step in the right direction to a solution it to not allow "Unknown Number" calls any more. Yes, I know people can spoof their number (that would be the obvious step #2...) but, preventing people from hiding their numbers would go a long ways towards reducing the number of unwanted calls ("I don't recognize this number - screw it, voicemail can take it if it's important"). The fact that people can still hide their number is simply mind-boggling to me. If _you_ are calling _me_ (and thus invading my privacy) then you should have no expectation of privacy in return. Solve that hypocrisy and dealing with unwanted phone calls will become easier. imho

Overall, it works. (1)

Dzimas (547818) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589713)

I added my numbers to the Canadian Direct Marketer's internal "Do not call" list years ago and saw a dramatic decrease in calls and unsolicited mail. I added my numbers to the new federal list a few days after it was unveiled, and the calls from local hearing aid companies and carpet cleaners dried up. The system works.

Where it falls down is that there's no effective way for the Canadian government to regulate foreign calls, so we still receive the dreaded 000-000-00000 "You've won a cruise!" recordings and occasional offers to reduce the interest rate on credit cards we don't have. Parliament should approve the use of JTF2 to shut down those operations - it would take mere minutes and word would get around pretty quickly. :)

Signed on... then signed off (1)

mindaktiviti (630001) | more than 5 years ago | (#26589801)

I signed up for that do not call list, and then almost immediately realized "Hey... I'm not getting any telemarketing calls. Why would I put my phone number on there now?" so I took it off immediately. Instinct paid off!

Hash?! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26589887)

Why are they giving out the actual phone numbers and not a hash? Is it too trivial to create a lookup table for all possible phone numbers? Can't the government add a random extra 10 digits to the end and give those hashes? Then the lookup table would be orders of magnitude bigger.

If my number is 613-555-1234, then they could give out the hash for 612355512341947364957 or 6135551234967365973 or one of 10 billion different numbers with my real number at the start. It can still work for exculsionary purposes. The telemarketers would have to hash my number 10 billion times and if it matched even once then my number is excluded.

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