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45% of Dutch Media-Buying Population Are "Pirates"

timothy posted more than 5 years ago | from the dutch-treat dept.

Media 307

Anonymous writes "A non-government study in the Netherlands found that 4.7 million Dutch Internet users 15 years and older downloaded hacked and pirated DVDs, games, and music in the last 12 months — or, about 25 percent of the Dutch population. But there may be an upside to this unauthorized sharing/distribution: 'The average [Dutch] downloader buys more DVDs, music, and games than people who never download,' with illegal downloaders representing 45 percent of consumers who purchase content legally, according to the Institute For Information Law, which administered the study."

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307 comments

In b4 Necrotic Dog Penis (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26650661)

My comment looks too much like ascii art. :(

News Flash! 99% of Chinese/Russians 100% warez fee (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26650941)

News Flash! 99% of Chinese/Russians 100% warez fiendz!

News Flash! Previous News Flash not news at all!

Still not as much as Canada where it is 90%. Spain, as backward as it is, is a smoldering ash pot of warez. Nevermind the other eastern block countries.

I Always Win! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26650663)

First Post!

"Content" buzzword (5, Insightful)

Mylakovich (1101285) | more than 5 years ago | (#26650671)

I can't stand this one. Just describe what it is you are talking about. If it's a video, just say "Video", not "Video Content". Nothing is being "contained".

Re:"Content" buzzword (1)

paimin (656338) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651167)

Except various stuff contained in a website -- i.e. content.

Re:"Content" buzzword (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26651239)

Way to try to justify your illegal piracy, Slashfags. It's just like you to lash out at those fighting the good fight. Not guilty. Unlike you. Hope you like prison food.

BEND OVER, MUSIC THIEVES, FEDERAL LEGISLATION ON THE WAY!

Re:"Content" buzzword (1)

Mystra_x64 (1108487) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651419)

Why are you hiding your name, o'mighty defender of law?

There's only one possible answer. (5, Funny)

Thanshin (1188877) | more than 5 years ago | (#26650673)

ARRRRRRR!

Re:There's only one possible answer. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26650821)

Pirish!

Re:There's only one possible answer. (5, Funny)

davester666 (731373) | more than 5 years ago | (#26650893)

Just think how much more would have been purchased if all these criminals didn't have ready access to illegal material? Obviously, they would have purchased a copy of every single illegal download.

Because of they didn't actually make these purchases, millions of puppies in California had to be killed, because their owners couldn't afford to keep them into adulthood.

Re:There's only one possible answer. (0, Troll)

ElectricTurtle (1171201) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651041)

Your sarcasm is redundant, you couldn't RTFA?

Re:There's only one possible answer. (2, Interesting)

davester666 (731373) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651125)

First, this is slashdot, who RTFA?

Second, obviously, the group of downloaders are self-selecting. Some big media guy would argue that they are more of the target market for DVD's than the other group (non-downloaders). Therefore, if they didn't have the trivial ability to download video's, they would spend more of their money on actually buying videos.

This certainly is plausible, but I haven't seen any articles that make the case for causality (ie, downloading more makes you buy more).

And yes, my original post was meant to be sarcastic, hence the reference to killing puppies.

Re:There's only one possible answer. (1)

corychristison (951993) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651075)

Just think how much more would have been purchased if all these criminals didn't have ready access to illegal material? Obviously, they would have purchased a copy of every single illegal download.

Because of they didn't actually make these purchases, millions of puppies in California had to be killed, because their owners couldn't afford to keep them into adulthood.

I can't tell if you are being serious or not (good job if you aren't!)

I live in Canada so I guess this study does not include me... but I occasionally 'pirate' media. However, said media is in a grey zone where nobody cares in my country. And that would be Television Shows. For the sake of quality, if there is a DVD/BluRay Release I will buy it, though... as I feel it helps more directly than the TV stations do.

I don't feel that piracy is wrong as it really does not directly harm one or more people. Don't even think for a second that taking $1.50 in profit is worth anything to a musician (as only 5-10% ever makes its way back to them). No. That just won't do. I look at it this way: If the song is good and is worth listening to, more than enough people will buy it to support the artist and keep them going. Obviously Piracy is in a parallel with sales, so as sales go up, so does piracy. Just the way it is. You also have merchandise, concerts and various other forms of income to the artist, their label, etc. etc.

Compare that to, say, failing to signal before making a turn? I feel that could be much more harmful. Yet, I see it EVERYWHERE. I witness many times a day where police officers don't do it. Not good enough? Okay. How about speeding up while the intersection lights have changed to Amber. Hell, what if they are full-on Red and some jackass decides to drive right through it. I feel that is more dangerous. I still see it. No way of reporting it as it's one of those crimes a police officer must witness (AFAIK, anyway).

Just because the law deems something illegal, it does not mean it is worth enforcing/fighting.

Re:There's only one possible answer. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26651183)

Just because the law deems something illegal, it does not mean it is worth enforcing/fighting.

At where I live, oral sex was illegal unless it led to actual sex. (Repeled in 2007)

Re:There's only one possible answer. (5, Informative)

johanw (1001493) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651217)

According to Dutch law, downloading of music and video is NOT illegal. Only uploading is illegal, and downloading of software without permission is illegal. Not that anyone here cares, no private person here has ever been sued for doing any of the not legal things.

Re:There's only one possible answer. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26651247)

Piracy is wrong. If you've ever been on the other end of it, you'll realise how unjust it is. By pirating, you're giving the creators of good digital work less incentive to make it better. People need to live, and just because there's no direct cost of you pirating doesn't make it right. I can't believe how many people seem to think pirating is not wrong.

Lets say, someone promised you $200 to clean some leaves. You clean those leaves, but they don't pay you. You're not hurt, and you haven't suffered any harm yet it's still unfair.

Bes

Re:There's only one possible answer. (1)

mvanvoorden (861050) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651297)

If the goal of the music you make is to make money, you're setting the wrong goal anyway. Music is there to tell a message, or set a specific atmosphere. And another thing is that an artist makes almost no money out of music sales. If you want to support your favourite artist, visit his concert, that's how they make money, and that's also how they experience real gratitude for the effort they put into their music.

Re:There's only one possible answer. (5, Interesting)

hairyfeet (841228) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651327)

Then go back to the way we did it for a thousand bloody years before the IP scam was cooked up! In case you didn't know we actually did have music and art before you could set on your ass and draw a check for 150+ years because you wrote a one hit wonder. It was called patronage and live performances. I know, it is a concept! To actually have to continue working like the rest of us poor slobs instead of making one digital widget and pulling a Disney and sitting on your overfed ass forever. How sad it is to actually be lowered to living like the rest of us and having to continue to work. Sheesh.

Our progress is being held back by these IP "holders" and their crazy ideas. News flash-digital bits are NOT the same as owning land! You may want them to be, but they are not! Example, There is NO reason why we shouldn't be able to buy prebuilt little multimedia servers designed to let us rip our CDs and movies and make them available anywhere in our homes. No more dealing with discs, the kids can watch what they want while the adults watch their own movies, etc. It would be very nice. But we can't have anything like that because the IP "holders" say you only have rights to play the plastic. So if the little bit of plastic isn't there than you can't watch it. AARGH!

I will be SO glad when the *.A.As just DIE already! For 150+ years we had sane copyrights until the IP "holders" decided to bribe our lawmakers. So while they haven't put out anything I would consider actually pirating I for one hope they lose tons of money. They ripped us off by stealing the Public Domain away from us, so anything that happens to them is fine by me. I hope they ALL go out of business. And NO bailouts for you!

Re:There's only one possible answer. (1, Interesting)

Hognoxious (631665) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651381)

Patronage only worked because the huge wealth inequalities at the time meant that some - usually kings, nobles and churchmen - had loads of money to spend and wanted to show off to others of their class.

I agree that copyright eriods are ridiculously long, but that doesn't mean the underlying concept is wrong.

Re:There's only one possible answer. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26651287)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA yeah thats funny seriously though i hope you get raped

Also selling well (5, Funny)

AlterRNow (1215236) | more than 5 years ago | (#26650679)

Also selling well: eyepatches, wooden legs and stuffed parrots. Arrrrr!

Re:Also selling well (5, Funny)

MadKeithV (102058) | more than 5 years ago | (#26650993)

The dutch don't buy wooden legs, they buy wooden shoes.

Re:Also selling well (1)

clickety6 (141178) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651201)

so the Dutch pirates don't have a leg to stand on?

Re:Also selling well (5, Funny)

MadKeithV (102058) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651235)

That joke is below sea level.

Re:Also selling well (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26651305)

We do not buy them, we sell them to tourists.

Re:Also selling well (1)

Hognoxious (631665) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651403)

The dutch don't buy wooden legs

The Dutch don't buy anything [erothitan.com] if they can avoid it.

Of course this calls for (5, Funny)

HungryHobo (1314109) | more than 5 years ago | (#26650683)

Stricter legislation! Harsher punishments! Bigger fines! Public whippings!

Re:Of course this calls for (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26650811)

Exactly. And don't forget, more draconian DRM.

Case in point. I just bought an LG DN898 Upconverting DVD player (not HD, not BluRay). Per LG and the Best Buy rep it would upconvert to 1080i on the component (Analog) output. In reality? "Copyrighted" movies play at 480p (non-upconverted), copied, pirated, and other DVDs will play at the full upconverted 1080i.

Yes, they made it more appealing for the customer to get pirated movies now.

So thanks to this encouragement I have bought my last DVD and look forward to only expanding my library through pirating, as pirated movies will now look *better* on my TV! (Oh and no more commercials, FBI notice, or other crap I can't skip).

* If you don't believe me btw, just check here [lge.com] (Warning PDF), page 5 under component connection:

"For 720p and 1080p resolution on the component video output, only non-copy protected discs can be played back. If the disc is copy protected, it will be displayed at the 480p resolution."

Re:Of course this calls for (3, Interesting)

HungryHobo (1314109) | more than 5 years ago | (#26650865)

That really is insane...
I wonder what the logic was.
"Perhaps if we make sure our paying customers get lower quality products than those who pirate perhaps they won't want pirated moveies any more!"

Re:Of course this calls for (4, Funny)

Jurily (900488) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651039)

I wonder what the logic was.

"If they were stupid enough to pay for that, they deserve to suffer."

Sounds like a BOFH to me.

Re:Of course this calls for (1)

xaxa (988988) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651285)

That really is insane...
I wonder what the logic was.

Maybe so they'd sell more DVD writers and blank discs?

Re:Of course this calls for (5, Insightful)

TheCybernator (996224) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651393)

Actually Moser Baer has done something similar in India. They crashed the CD/DVD prices from ~Rs.1000 to ~Rs.100 (USD 20 to USD 2)
People now obviously prefer DVD prints over the pirated cam print. This should be and is THE only way to kill piracy.

Re:Of course this calls for (2, Insightful)

HungryHobo (1314109) | more than 5 years ago | (#26650905)

Forgot to add.
Expect one of the RIAA advertising drones that seem to have been hanging out on slashdot to turn up and tell you that you're just being an evil thief who wants to justify his actions.

You see by complaining about DRM and stupid DRM features like you have experienced you're a "Pirate enabler" and since DRM is purely about stopping pirates you should really stop complaining, take it up the ass,let your hardware downgrade the video stream, sit through the unskippable advertisments quietly, feel grateful that they allowed you to give them your money and like it.

Re:Of course this calls for (1)

jeroen94704 (542819) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651315)

As a Slashdot reader, I'm sure you are tech-savvy enough to rip any discs you legally purchase.

Re:Of course this calls for (1)

b4upoo (166390) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651099)

I'll wager that the pirates have a higher IQ than those that fail to pirate. Therefore beating them down is the right thing to do. Woe unto the nation that fails to beat down the intelligent among them! Let the dullards rule. It's natural law!

One word (0, Offtopic)

MBlueD (1464095) | more than 5 years ago | (#26650697)

Shareware.

Economic downturn to blame (0, Flamebait)

syousef (465911) | more than 5 years ago | (#26650705)

After all, what's a dutchman (or woman) to do when they have the economy blues but hoist the Jolly Roger and go out for a good old pillage on the high seas.

Re:Economic downturn to blame (4, Interesting)

mcvos (645701) | more than 5 years ago | (#26650829)

After all, what's a dutchman (or woman) to do when they have the economy blues but hoist the Jolly Roger and go out for a good old pillage on the high seas.

The pride of our national history, the VOC [wikipedia.org] made much of its early profits through piracy. It brought us our Golden Age. It makes sens to go back to those pragmatic mercantile principles, right?

Even our prime minister lauded the VOC mentality a few month ago. (And got criticised for it because that includes slave trade and colonialism, but nobody mentioned piracy at the time.)

Re:Economic downturn to blame (2, Funny)

Thanshin (1188877) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651001)

Even our prime minister lauded the VOC mentality a few month ago. (And got criticised for it because that includes slave trade and colonialism, but nobody mentioned piracy at the time.)

Oh, I don't follow current RIAA slang.

I'm lost with colonialism, but slave trade is surely "mailing pictures of people", right?

Re:Economic downturn to blame (1)

b4upoo (166390) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651107)

We could bring back the good old days by insisting upon our legal and moral right to sell opium to the people of China. There's more than one way to beat down the Chinese and make money while doing it.

It's not all that surprising... (5, Interesting)

91degrees (207121) | more than 5 years ago | (#26650723)

An unscientific look at my friends seems to suggest that the people who buy the most also pirate the most. There actually seems to be a fairly consistent ration between amount downloaded and amount purchased.

On the face of it, it's illogical for them to buy anything but clearly there's some good reason for them to do so.

Re:It's not all that surprising... (5, Insightful)

mcvos (645701) | more than 5 years ago | (#26650847)

An unscientific look at my friends seems to suggest that the people who buy the most also pirate the most. There actually seems to be a fairly consistent ration between amount downloaded and amount purchased.

It's been common knowledge for quite some time now. Only the industry insists on ignoring it.

On the face of it, it's illogical for them to buy anything but clearly there's some good reason for them to do so.

A lot of downloaders have surprisingly high ethical standards. Some purchase a legal copy, don't install it (because of DRM) and download the cracked version instead.

Re:It's not all that surprising... (5, Insightful)

lorenzo.boccaccia (1263310) | more than 5 years ago | (#26650867)

the real question is: if the majority of the population would be pirates (50%+), shouldn't a government from the people for the people abolish copyright and be done with it?

Re:It's not all that surprising... (4, Insightful)

mcvos (645701) | more than 5 years ago | (#26650947)

I don't think 50+% of the people are actually opposed to copyright. They're just opposed to it being used as an excuse for harmful DRM and other complications. They want to see their movies and play their games, and don't mind paying for them if they're any good, but paying lots of money for crap that doesn't work gets tired really fast.

Re:It's not all that surprising... (1)

HungryHobo (1314109) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651005)

Yes,
I download a great deal of material, why? Because it's easier.

I pay a subscription but I doubt the money is going to the artists, if the copyright holders could get their heads out of their asses and provide a single place where I could get everything I wanted- movies, music, ebooks, games from all studios and all providers without DRM and at a similar price then I'd be quite happy to pay them instead.

I do think copyright is broken, the lengh of time is insane for one thing but copyrights and patents have their uses.

So yes, I'd be one of those pirates but I'm not totally opposed to copyright.

Re:It's not all that surprising... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26651045)

neither am I, and I usually pay what is due for the games I like, and patiently wait to price drops for the game I doesn't like enough to pay 60. Heck, the complete medieval, rome and shogun was on sale for 24 some months ago!

Re:It's not all that surprising... (1)

mcvos (645701) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651071)

Heck, the complete medieval, rome and shogun was on sale for 24 some months ago!

When Medieval 2 Total War came out, my PC wasn't even powerful enough to play it. Now I have a PC that can play it, and what do you know? I find the game for $10. Cool stuff. I just hope it doesn't have crippling DRM, but $10 is low enough to take that risk blindly.

I've paid over $50 (sometimes a lot more) for other games, but only when I knew in advance they'd be good and they'd work.

Re:It's not all that surprising... (1)

icebraining (1313345) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651223)

You know, those sales aren't supporting the developers, they happen because the stores have them in stock, but they won't order more, so you're only supporting the store. And the same goes for second hand trades.

So, if buying a old game only gives profit to the store, but not the developers, and the only thing the store deserves money is distributing games to the people, if you don't need their service, why should you pay them? So, if you download it, you're not hurting anyone, you're just not using the shop services.

So, the only thing worth buying is brand new games which makes stores buy more copies from the editor.

Re:It's not all that surprising... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26651253)

yes it's good to buy the new game to continually allow the developers to make money.. but if there is a copy of a game in the store then the developer has already made their money off the product.. so buying it new or used you're just letting the store get it's money back..

Re:It's not all that surprising... (1)

andy.ruddock (821066) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651359)

That's assuming that the developer gets paid when the copy is sold at the store.

Since the store must have bought it from a supplier further up the chain, surely the developers have already had their cut. The store's only selling it cheaply because they have only a finite amount of space on the shelves and in the warehouses.

Buying second hand, the sale's already happened and the developers have already been paid.

Re:It's not all that surprising... (3, Insightful)

vux984 (928602) | more than 5 years ago | (#26650977)

It's been common knowledge for quite some time now. Only the industry insists on ignoring it.

Yes, its common knowledge that there is a correlation, but are they in anyway meaningfully linked. I mean, the pro-infringement camp like to point to this and say, look infringement is actually increasing sales... the more people download the more they buy.

But is that true?

Here, for example, is a simple hypothesis that explains the correlation:

People who aren't particularly interested in music aren't buying or downloading much.
People who are interested in music buy and download more.

Thus the real question is:

Does downloading music actually increase the amount you buy, or is it simply the case that the people who are most interested in music download and buy the most.

A lot of downloaders have surprisingly high ethical standards. Some purchase a legal copy, don't install it (because of DRM) and download the cracked version instead.

Don't kid yourself; for every one of those, there is an entire legion of people who downloaded the cracked version and never bought the legal version, or at best buy it years later in some discount bin if they had fond enough memories of it.

The only question is what percentage of those that chose to infringe it would have bought it if that was the only way to get it. Obviously, a huge swathe of them would simply have done without.

Re:It's not all that surprising... (4, Insightful)

mcvos (645701) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651029)

Yes, its common knowledge that there is a correlation, but are they in anyway meaningfully linked. I mean, the pro-infringement camp like to point to this and say, look infringement is actually increasing sales... the more people download the more they buy.

Pro-infringement camp? Your choice of words exposes your biased world view. Few people are pro-infringement. Sure, they exist, but most people are simply pro-being able to use stuff. How much they insist on paying money for that varies, but it's all about the content, not the infringement. That's just a by-product of getting at the content.

Does downloading music actually increase the amount you buy, or is it simply the case that the people who are most interested in music download and buy the most.

...

The only question is what percentage of those that chose to infringe it would have bought it if that was the only way to get it. Obviously, a huge swathe of them would simply have done without.

You seem to live in a fairy tale land where there's a magical dial to regulate the number of downloads. Illegal downloads don't cause stuff, they are caused by stuff. If you don't like illegal downloads, you need to look at the real causes.

Even more so, illegal downloads aren't even an interesting statistic to producers. They should only care about the number of sales. If sales and downloads both go up, they're still doing something right. If sales and downloads both go down, they're still doing something wrong. The downloads don't matter, the sales do.

A situation where downloads are impossible is simply not going to happen outside magical fairyland. All that matters is: how do you get people to buy your stuff. Stop seeing downloads as missed sales. Many of them are sales, many others would never have been sales.

Re:It's not all that surprising... (1)

HungryHobo (1314109) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651033)

Well we could look at IP owners who saw sense and tried putting everything online for free.

Now if you're right then there would be no effect on their sales of DVD's and such.
If you're right then they would gain little from it and might even loose sales.

Now lets look at an example...
http://www.youtube.com/user/MontyPython [youtube.com]

http://entertainment.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/01/25/0041202 [slashdot.org]

Now to be fair they only experienced a marginal increase in DVD sales... barely enough to notice but still.

Re:It's not all that surprising... (1)

rhyder128k (1051042) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651047)

I was surprised that this news item didn't have the causation=!correlation tag. I wish I had the points to mod up your appraisal.

Re:It's not all that surprising... (1)

camcorder (759720) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651161)

A lot of downloaders have surprisingly high ethical standards. Some purchase a legal copy, don't install it (because of DRM) and download the cracked version instead.

I'm not supporting DRM, but isn't the illegal sharing of copyrighted materials is the cause of DRM at first place? I don't believe content creators woke up one day and thought making sharing their copyrighted materials harder is needed without any reason. If downloaders don't like DRM, then they should instead find legal ways to get over with DRM (ie. boycott, complain, sue) instead of giving a good claim to those using DRM on their products.

Re:It's not all that surprising... (2, Insightful)

mcvos (645701) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651431)

I'm not supporting DRM, but isn't the illegal sharing of copyrighted materials is the cause of DRM at first place?

The fear that illegal sharing is hurting sales, certainly. Let's face it, copying software is as old as software itself, and trying to prevent that is almost as old. The problem is, it doesn't work. By its very nature, you can't prevent software from being copied, and invasive DRM is certainly the wrong answer.

If downloaders don't like DRM, then they should instead find legal ways to get over with DRM (ie. boycott, complain, sue) instead of giving a good claim to those using DRM on their products.

The downloaders aren't harmed by the DRM, the paying customers are (many of whom resort to downloading the crack despite having a legal copy). That's the entire reason why DRM is the wrong solution. It encourages piracy.

And suing your customers isn't a good solution either. The only good solution I'm aware of is providing better quality and better service to paying customers. That's what Stardock, Valve and (to a lesser extend, perhaps) iTunes are focusing on, and that seems to work.

Re:It's not all that surprising... (1)

Rewind (138843) | more than 5 years ago | (#26650909)

I have noticed this too. The people who consume the most, well... consume the most. They are just content whores :) Some they will pirate, things they can easily get and like they will buy as much of as they can. They just want the content, whatever is the easiest way for them to get it most of the time. At least this is what I have seen.

Re:It's not all that surprising... (4, Insightful)

mcvos (645701) | more than 5 years ago | (#26650959)

I have noticed this too. The people who consume the most, well... consume the most. They are just content whores :) Some they will pirate, things they can easily get and like they will buy as much of as they can. They just want the content, whatever is the easiest way for them to get it most of the time. At least this is what I have seen.

So smart producers will make sure that paying for it is the easiest way to get the content. That means paid downloads without crippling DRM. That means your HD DVD or BluRay should simply work at full resolution no matter what. That means CD you buy should be rippable so you can put them on your mp3-player.

Small detail (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26650731)

In the Netherlands downloading music and movies is not illegal (yet). Uploading is another story...

Re:Small detail (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26650841)

But nearly every bittorrent client has uploading enabled by default, and no option to disable uploading.

So typically when one downloads, one also uploads.

Re:Small detail (1)

CBravo (35450) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651175)

there are other options, like downloading via newsgroups. See http://www.ftd.nu/ [www.ftd.nu] (warning: dutch) for example.

Re:Small detail (1)

icebraining (1313345) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651263)

And Shareminer (aka Google search with parameters for searching "rapidshare" and "megaupload"). Its possible to find plenty of old music albums not available in stores.

Re:Small detail (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26651399)

Its possible to find plenty of old music albums not available in stores.

Reminds me of this: ages ago I checked every store around here, and never found any Chris Isaak album. Eventually looked for it on the 'net -- voila.

Re:Small detail (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26651343)

Also 4.7 million of the 15yr+ population (13.2million) = 35%

The correlation between people who download, again legally, and buy music has been known for a long time (it also makes sense).

So here we have a good system;
A home copy for personal use that is not illigal (to download or own) and a population who buy more than others.
The music industry should embrace this....

Re:Small detail (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26651491)

You are correct. But the Dutch equivalent of the RIAA, Stichting Brein, would have us believe otherwise.

Correlation is not causation (0, Flamebait)

cliffski (65094) | more than 5 years ago | (#26650753)

What is this article trying to say? That copyright infringement is good because the people doing it are actually also buying a lot of games?

That's bullshit. There is no correlation here, unless you studied the purchasing habits of a set group of people who couldn't pirate stuff for a year and they could the next year.
Hardcore gamers buy a lot of games. If hardcore gamers also pirate a lot, then this is a disaster for people making hardcore games.
Maybe they buy a lot of music and DVDs but pirate every game, or vice versa.

Put yourself in the position of someone making a game. If the guy who doesn't pay for your game buys a lot of CD's, that doesn't help pay your mortgage or buy your groceries. The fact that the people who rip you off might be someone else's good customers is frankly no help to you.

Everyone I know making games is moving to flash games that are ad-supported, console gaming, or doing MMO games. If people want the option to ever be playing single-player games, they need to stop assuming they can get them for free, and free-ride off the honest people who still open their wallet for decent entertainment.

Re:Correlation is not causation (4, Insightful)

kitgerrits (1034262) | more than 5 years ago | (#26650861)

OK. I'll bite.

The article says that a lot of pirates are people that enjoy the content.
Sometimes, they even enjoy the content so much, they buy the official copy, just to inform the publisher that this formula works.

I'm one of them, I have piles of illegal movies and games and even bigger piles of CD's, DVD's and BD-ROMS of stuff I actually like)
Also, not all piracy is done because 'they want it for free'. If you want English subtitles in the Netherlands, you either have to import (illegal, won't play on DVD player) or download your movies, so I but the movie with dutch subs and download the one with English subs.

Oh, and yes, /sometimes/ it is worth the money to import (Ghost in the Shell, Evangelion), even if it costs >$75 to buy.

Re:Correlation is not causation (1)

gsslay (807818) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651267)

Sometimes, they even enjoy the content so much, they buy the official copy, just to inform the publisher that this formula works.

Interesting. Do you have any evidence of this bizarre method of communication? Perhaps people who really, really enjoy the content go out and buy it twice, just to inform the publisher? Because, of course, the publisher gets this message back in an encoded signal from your credit card.

People buy the official copy for one reason; they want the higher quality and the added value of the genuine packaging and associated content. As with all market forces, individuals are largely motivated by self-interest. They are not motivated by a desire to support the 'formula' and to suggest they are is laughable.

And correlation is not causation. Fact. How often is this pointed out on slashdot?

Re:Correlation is not causation (1)

Jedi Alec (258881) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651427)

They are not motivated by a desire to support the 'formula' and to suggest they are is laughable.

Thank you! Never again will I have to buy anything from Stardock because I support their formula! From now on I'll treat their products just the same as all the crap EA spews forth which isn't worth paying for unless you know for sure it actually bloody works.

I buy the official product when it is *convenient*, because like a lot of people I am a lazy bastard. If you make it easy for me to purchase, install and use your product from the comfort of my chair, then I will do so. If you put a gazillion hurdles in my path, then I will simply go to the pirate bay and get it there. Wrong/unethical/illegal/despicable? Perhaps. Reality? Very much so.

Re:Correlation is not causation (1)

icebraining (1313345) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651281)

I don't download much, but one of the things I do download is TV series which don't exist with portuguese subtitles yet. There are groups of volunteers who subtitle episodes two to three days from the original broadcast (in the US). So those downloads actually give me a service many months before the "official" retailers.

Re:Correlation is not causation (1)

csteinle (68146) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651411)

Also, not all piracy is done because 'they want it for free'. If you want English subtitles in the Netherlands, you either have to import (illegal, won't play on DVD player) or download your movies, so I but the movie with dutch subs and download the one with English subs.

play.com will ship UK versions EU wide. Both the Netherlands and the UK are Region 2. That'll save you from buying the Dutch one at all.

Re:Correlation is not causation (1)

kitgerrits (1034262) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651457)

Indeed, and I have piles of Play DVD's :-)
Unfortunately, they don't carry as much Japanese and French movies/series as I would like.

Play actually provides the convenience Jedi_Alec seems to want, except you have to rely on your local postal company for delivery (some things get lost in transit).

They do, however try to keep you happy you if something does get lost.

Re:Correlation is not causation (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26650875)

You didn't get it right.

Why should people who like owning DVDs, Blurays and Games just buy stuff blindly ?

A lot of people I know download a movie first, and when they like it they buy a Bluray later on. I see this as a win-win for both sides.

Download statistics don't mean anything really.

Re:Correlation is not causation (2, Insightful)

mcvos (645701) | more than 5 years ago | (#26650911)

What is this article trying to say? That copyright infringement is good because the people doing it are actually also buying a lot of games?

No, it's saying that the industry is fighting the wrong fight. They're attacking their own customers.

That's bullshit. There is no correlation here, unless you studied the purchasing habits of a set group of people who couldn't pirate stuff for a year and they could the next year.

What the hell does that mean? If the study shows that people who buy more also download more, and people who download less also purchase less, than that's correlation. It doesn't necessarily say anything about causation, but the correlation is quite obvious.

Hardcore gamers buy a lot of games. If hardcore gamers also pirate a lot, then this is a disaster for people making hardcore games.

No. People buying lots of games are not a disaster for people who make those games. Those people finding a different hobby would be a disaster, though.

Put yourself in the position of someone making a game. If the guy who doesn't pay for your game buys a lot of CD's, that doesn't help pay your mortgage or buy your groceries.

People who don't buy your stuff don't pay your mortgage no matter what other stuff they do buy and whether or not they download your stuff illegally. Pirates don't matter. Customers do.

Everyone I know making games is moving to flash games that are ad-supported, console gaming, or doing MMO games.

Then you need to get acquainted with Brad Wardell from Stardock. He's the one who said "pirates don't matter", he's applied this to his single player PC games which don't have any copy protection, and sell very well. His strategy works because he focuses on pleasing his customers instead of chasing them away.

If people want the option to ever be playing single-player games, they need to stop assuming they can get them for free, and free-ride off the honest people who still open their wallet for decent entertainment.

And if companies want people to pay for their games, they need to stop assuming that they can hurt the play experience of honest, paying customers without chasing them towards cracked versions of the game that offer a superior experience.

It's a two-way street. Companies are trying to control their customers, but a free market simply doesn't work like that.

Re:Correlation is not causation (1)

zwei2stein (782480) | more than 5 years ago | (#26650939)

I like how you call methodology of study bullshit while you come up paragraph later with something smelling similar.

Bad customer with piratey tendencies are better than someone that just pirates. They don't cause aditional costs and biz still gets gets at least some profit from them, and evnetually each company gets their share. Sure, geting that one game of yours pirated while they actually buy someone elses stuff sucks, but it works both ways.

Re:Correlation is not causation (5, Informative)

HungryHobo (1314109) | more than 5 years ago | (#26650963)

So by your logic if all a groups copyrighted work was suddenly available for download for free they'd have a massive dropoff in sales?
Sounds logical, I mean these guys went bankrupt as soon as they tried it.
http://www.youtube.com/user/MontyPython [youtube.com]

Re:Correlation is not causation (2, Interesting)

Mascot (120795) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651057)

Hardcore gamers buy a lot of games. If hardcore gamers also pirate a lot, then this is a disaster for people making hardcore games.

Unless you have the kind of data to back up your assumption that hardcore gamers would otherwise have bought *more* games, you just made one of them unfounded correlations yourself.

If people want the option to ever be playing single-player games, they need to stop assuming they can get them for free

Yep. Games like The Sims has clearly proven there's no room for commercially successful single player games. Or Bioshock. Or Sins of a Solar Empire. Or (insert list of umpteen non-MMO games that has topped the sales charts the pasts few years).

*Lots* of people, millions of them, buy games. Your points aren't invalid, but neither are they gospel.

I'll tell you what makes me buy games. Them being good. And the price/availability equation. Steam was good, until they switched to Euro at a 1:1 ratio with USD and jacked up their prices some 40% effectively. Now they've priced themselves out of my interest. There's only Impulse left. That's the only DRM I accept. If your game isn't on there, you generally won't get a sale from me unless you're offering independent DRM-free distribution of your own.

Well, in your case you won't either way. I tried hard to find one of your games to buy to support you when you announced dropping DRM. I just couldn't find one that even remotely interested me enough to part with money for it. That's not meant as a slam. You just haven't made anything to my taste yet.

The sad fact is, there's no getting away from piracy. All one can do is try to mitigate it. By offering quality, by not overloading it with ineffective and annoying DRM, by pricing it right, and by catering extra to the people that are able to prove they purchased the product.

If there still aren't enough sales to make it worthwhile, then that's it really. We'll be back to indie one-man-with-a-passion made games and will have noone to blame but ourselves. Though those games will undoubtedly top any AAA game in originality, so the culture of gaming will endure regardless.

Promising, but... (0)

edcheevy (1160545) | more than 5 years ago | (#26650771)

... you need a disposable income to buy both computers and DVDs/games/music. I hope they controlled for income and what equipment people own (e.g., if you don't own a computer, you'll buy fewer computer games than the pirate who does, but it doesn't mean piracy raises purchase rates).

Legal (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26650773)

An intersting bit to note,in a nutshell, In the netherlands it is perfectly legal to download music and videos from anywhere as long as it is not uploaded again or used for commercial gains. (personal use is A-OK)

Although many programs (bittorrent mule etc) automatically upload parts of it again, The ducth (majority) can therefore only be seen as mediocre pirates and not as true pirates!

I love my very legal newsgroup server :)

in other news... (5, Funny)

roalt (534265) | more than 5 years ago | (#26650795)

... studies found that people not interested in listening, playing or watching any media are not buying it, nor downloading it illegally.

Re:in other news... (1)

Bearhouse (1034238) | more than 5 years ago | (#26650915)

Mod parent funny or insightful depending on your mood. I smiled.

Re:in other news... (1)

dontmakemethink (1186169) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651171)

...other studies found that of those disinterested in buying mainstream Blu-Rays, less than 50% were Dutch. These Dutch extremists must be brought to justice!

Correlation or Causation (1)

colganc (581174) | more than 5 years ago | (#26650807)

Are they correlated or one causes the other? I don't think its clear.

Re:Correlation or Causation (1)

mcvos (645701) | more than 5 years ago | (#26650973)

Are they correlated or one causes the other? I don't think its clear.

They are quite clearly correlated. The causation isn't so obvious, but my guess is they're both caused by a desire for games, music and movies, and possibly a desire to get the best experience from them.

25% can't be wrong (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26650817)

25% are "pirates".

So 25% of the population are criminals and should be in jail?
Sounds like the law needs changing to me..

(Anonymous Dutchman)

The other 55% (5, Funny)

Stroot (223139) | more than 5 years ago | (#26650931)

Don't worry, I'm one of the other 55% Dutch people, the ninjas. We will beat those pesky pirates.

Go figure. (5, Insightful)

Anachragnome (1008495) | more than 5 years ago | (#26650937)

Amazing what a test drive can do for consumer confidence.

And remember (2, Informative)

Freud (5279) | more than 5 years ago | (#26650957)

downloading (only downloading, not uploading) is legal in The Netherlands.

Meanwhile... (2, Funny)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651009)

94% of Dutch drivers who usually obey the speed limit admit exceeding it at least once per month. Obviously, the Dutch are a nation of scofflaws. The good part of that being of course that the scofflaws do obey the rules... most of the time.

In other words, the average speeder uses the road legally far more than the driver who only brings the car out of the garage to go to church on Sunday.

We should all be surprised by this, because the media tells us so. Please, everyone raise their eyebrows for the photograph.

funny coincedence (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26651085)

That music,video's and games are the most expensive in the Netherlands.
a music CD costs 40 Euro's A DVD costs 50 and a game too.
When you try to buy content from outside Holland you get taxed up to dutch prices so that you always pay extra (because of shipping costs).

There is only one escape....

It justifies (5, Funny)

camcorder (759720) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651105)

Indeed that research justifies claims of the movie and music industry. Those downloading a copyrighted material illegally are prospective customers, and easier they can be able to get things free, less they would buy them. Not more.

There are always excuses for illegally downloading these stuff. Overpriced materials, willing to preview before buy, outdated media etc. But those are not valid excuses at least these days. You can *live* without listening to every single tune. You can *live* without watching every single movie. If you enjoy watching a movie, and if you enjoy listening to a tune, go buy it. Just like you enjoy eating snacks and need to buy them.

For sure you can be ideologically against policies of movie studios, or labels. Then boycot them by making their products less popular, not by illegally download their content. If you do you're one way or another both infringe laws and making those you're against good.

There're more liberal licenses for distributing copyrighted materials like Creative Commons. Instead support artists releasing content in such a way. But if you don't do that, nothing can be an excuse of infringing copyright of others.

Most responsible party in this long going problem is those distributing content. I blame those download illegal content less than those sharing this stuff. Distributing does not serve any purpose. As I said it does not serve your mission of protesting policies of the movie studios or music labels in case that's what you want in first place. It even helps their domination.

Harm of this illegal sharing of copyrighted material is very huge in developing countries. Their government and public don't understand importance of intellectual property. If developed countries did not have good protection of intellectual properties they would not be able to produce quality music, movies or even software. Developing countries don't give importance to this and at the end of day they don't/can't produce rival products with their own resources, they instead stay addicted to copyrighted products of others.

In my country, Turkey, illegal copying is rampant. And I'll give example not from soft copies, but hard copies, like books. Over here there're lots of universities giving education in English. But you hardly find original books written by professors of local universities. Almost all universities use textbooks from US and/or UK. I'm not talking about grad level courses, but basic physics, mathematics, biology etc. Since most of these books are photocopied by students, professors don't *waste* their time to produce more suitable materials to be used by the local universites and probably rest of the World. They can write better books for their own students. They can give more local examples and students would understand topics better. But students buy illegal copies and somehow manage to pass courses. If they instead complain about expensive books or authority enforce them not to use illegal copies and make them complain anyways, some local professor would produce cheaper and even better materials. Inevitably this not only harm education also make those educated people lazy.

Illegal copying is like using drugs. You don't foresee any problem eary times and even feel good about it. But eventually it harms your body and future.

Piracy can be a good thing (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26651119)

I have pirated games before myself to see if they felt worth the money, and if the game seemed good while playing into it, I went out and bought it, and if the game sucked, well, I'd uninstall it then.

Plain and simple.

Because some people don't feel like spending $50 on a game and going "This is crap." after playing it for a few minutes, because stores won't take it back and refund their money.

let me be the first to say... (0, Redundant)

OneSmartFellow (716217) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651163)

... Naaaahhrr, shiver me timbers, avast matey, ahoy

We pay music tax, so we get free music downloads (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26651177)

Since us dutch pay a tax on empty cd's and dvd's we're entitled to free music downloads. It looks like the author didn't take this into account.

Re:We pay music tax, so we get free music download (1)

johanw (1001493) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651321)

[quote]Since us dutch pay a tax on empty cd's and dvd's[/quote] Did noone tell you to buy in Germany? See www.opus.nl. Besides, a lot of traders sell them (illegally) tax-free. I buy DVD's in a shop for EUR 22,50 per 100, Opus is cheaper but I don't pay delivery costs and I can just go to the shop when I need them and don't have to wait. And I'm doing nothing illegal, how am I supposed to know that price is even lower than the tax?

Intel killed the camel's back, here's how (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26651205)

It's no coincidence that the computer industry peaked around the year 2000, went into a serious decline, stabilized at the low point a couple of years ago, and has since collapsed again. This all happens and continues to this day - it's been a 10-year-long down cycle.

A confluence of reasons is responsible for this, but when it comes to the industry bringing this on itself (rather than outside influences such as Sarbanes_Oxley), one major event may have taken down the entire business. It triggered almost everything else that was bad.

I'm speaking about the announcement of the Itanium processor. This continues to be one of the great fiascos of the last 50 years, and not because Intel blew too much money on its development or that the chip performed poorly and will never be widely adopted. It was the reaction and subsequent consolidation in the industry that took place once this grandiose chip was pre-announced.

I witnessed this in real time, in person, and I've never seen anything like it before or since.

In 1997 Intel was the king of the hill; in that year it first announced the Itanium or IA64 processor. That same year, research company IDC predicted that the Itanium would take over the world, racking up $38 billion in sales in 2001. Wow! Everybody paid attention.

At the time of the announcement, Intel stock was around $20 (adjusted for numerous splits); it began to climb fast, approaching $100 a share by 2001. When the chip finally shipped in July 2001, it wasn't about to generate $38 billion in sales, and the whole Itanium idea began to fall apart. IDC adjusted its prediction downwards, saying the chip would generate $12 billion by the end of 2004. In 2004 the chip actually generated $1.4 billion, far less than the cost of development.

Intel stock began a slide that it has yet to recover from and now languishes at around $14. You can blame the Itanium for this decimation, as far as I'm concerned. Perhaps the idea behind the chip was sound. Intel had decided that the x86 architecture was stale; it had been cloned by AMD on a separate development track, and it needed to be replaced by something completely different. But this notion was probably initiated as much to screw AMD as it was to move the industry forward.

Utilizing trendy ideas of the era -- such as RISC and very long instruction words -- Intel was convinced it could do something more modern than the creaky x86 architecture, which first emerged in 1978, for goodness sake.

Andy '486' Grove figured that Intel could pull an Apple and do what Macs did when that company transitioned from the Moto 68000 to the PowerPC chip: run legacy apps in emulation. It's been done before, after all, and this chip would be so powerful, they thought, that nobody would even notice. No matter that Apple got lucky with its emulator, and that generally emulation sucks.

The problem was that Intel wasn't the only company drinking the Kool-Aid. The entire industry took this project so seriously that the press was inundated by both a massive roll-out campaign and a press kit that had releases from all the strategic partners--which was practically everyone in the Valley...and beyond.

What we heard was that HP, IBM, Dell, and even Sun Microsystems would use these chips and discontinue anything else they were developing. This included Sun making noise about dropping the SPARC chip for this thing--sight unseen. I say "sight unseen" because it would be years before the chip was even prototyped. The entire industry just took Intel at its word that Itanium would work as advertised in a PowerPoint presentation.

Because this chip was supposed to radically change the way computers work and become the driving force behind all systems in the future, one promising project after another was dropped. The MIPS chip, the DEC Alpha (perhaps the fastest chip of its era), and anything else in the pipeline were all cancelled or deemphasized. Why? Because Itanium was the future for all computing. Why bother wasting money on good ideas that didn't include it?

The failure of this chip to do anything more than exist as a niche processor sealed the fate of Intel--and perhaps the entire industry, since from 1997 to 2001 everyone waited for the messiah of chips to take us all to the next level.

It did that all right. It took us to the next level. But we didn't know that the next level was below us, not above. The next level was the basement, in fact. Hopefully Intel won't come up with any more bright ideas like the Itanium. We can't afford to excavate another level down.

And there you have. How Intel killed the camel's back.

I like the message, but... (1)

drunkenoafoffofb3ta (1262668) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651345)

Instinctively, I don't trust the interpretation of the stats.

Perhaps the young Dutch comprise proportionately more of the downloaders. Young Dutch also like new music. Young Dutch are more likely to buy music than older Dutch, who have their CD and LP collection and feel no need to buy much more.

Thus you get your result. It doesn't necessarily mean that piracy leads to buying more stuff legitimately.

Awesome! (1)

TokyoMoD (1425399) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651383)

It's great to be a Pirate an 45% of ppl know it is!

People who listen to more music buy more (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26651395)

Who knew?

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