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Teachers Need an Open Source Education

timothy posted more than 5 years ago | from the yer-darn-tootin' dept.

Education 440

palegray.net writes "Teachers are sorely in need of an education in what open source software is, what it isn't, and how it can benefit their students. A recent news story at the Reg discussed the case of a Texas teacher who accused those distributing Linux to students of committing criminal acts. A HeliOS blog entry exposes a 'higher education' culture of apathy, lies, and fear of open source software. Things have got to improve, and that improvement needs to start with misguided teachers getting their facts straight."

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And another slow news day... (0, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26651459)

... where nothing of value was said.
Seriously, are the editors addicted to putting up new articles that they would just let anything get through? There is no new insight from this article, just a rehash of an age old topic...

Re:And another slow news day... (1)

rs232 (849320) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651505)

"... where nothing of value was said"

obviously of more interest to the editors than this [slashdot.org] ...

Re:And another slow news day... (0, Troll)

dov_0 (1438253) | more than 5 years ago | (#26652117)

Isn't that normal for the news articles?

citations please .. (2, Insightful)

rs232 (849320) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651471)

"A recent news story at the Reg discussed the case of a Texas teacher"

Citations please, does 'Karen' really exist, is this even true or just someone looking for hits to his blog.

Re:citations please .. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26651489)

Did you try the links in the summary?

Re:citations please .. (5, Informative)

rs232 (849320) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651587)

"Did you try the links in the summary?"

Not only that, when the story first 'broke', I tried emailing the AISD, they never heard of a 'Karen' involved in the alleged incident. The only source is on that blog ...

Re:citations please .. (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26651783)

Dumbass her name was changed in blog to protect her identity.

Re:citations please .. (2, Informative)

Lord Bitman (95493) | more than 5 years ago | (#26652209)

according to TFB, only her last-name was withheld. Maybe he decided to further obfuscate things, but if that's the case then he also lied about it.

Re:citations please .. (1)

thetoadwarrior (1268702) | more than 5 years ago | (#26652269)

You call him a liar yet you have no proof of your claim either.

The fact is whether or not it was made up it's clear that people don't value open source because of the damage from MS' monopoly and the fact people automatically think things are priced correctly so something free is junk. Open Source software does seriously lack marketing though which would help.

This is also why they buy cheap shitty clothes for a huge cost because of the brand.

Re:citations please .. (2, Insightful)

jbolden (176878) | more than 5 years ago | (#26652367)

I agree. It was one thing when this story was first discussed because it was an interesting case in point. But at this point "Karen" has been discussed enough that either she should come forward, the kid should come forward some witnesses should come forward or we should stop treating this as anything more than a questionable tale.

Re:citations please .. (0, Troll)

wild_quinine (998562) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651659)

"A recent news story at the Reg discussed the case of a Texas teacher" Citations please, does 'Karen' really exist, is this even true or just someone looking for hits to his blog.

Citations...? This word.... I do not think it means what you think it means.

Re:citations please .. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26651985)

At 1k for 3 graduate level credit hours,
yes, teachers need open source education.
FOR THEMSELVES.

Lack of knowledge not an excuse (5, Insightful)

Teun (17872) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651477)

It is a serious problem when teachers, regardless of the subject, use their position to 'teach' about things they have no or insufficient knowledge of.

Re:Lack of knowledge not an excuse (5, Interesting)

ledow (319597) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651709)

You must be new around schools... :-)

I've worked with "Head of IT" Teachers who can't install a simple application and don't understand "read-only" attributes.
I've worked with IT teachers who teach that the main components of a PC are a monitor and a hard drive "which contains all the other bits of the computer, including the CDROM".
I've worked with IT teachers who have NEVER programmed a single line in their life, trying to teach people how to use a programming language.
I've worked with IT teachers who are reluctant to let go of their floppies because they can't handle USB drives.
I've worked with IT teachers who have *zero* concept of licensing and just install everything everywhere.

Unfortunately, I met most of those people while working at a specialist IT secondary school / Academy.

It's common to most schools and to most subjects and even to most teachers - they might have a *related* degree (i.e. maths teachers with physics backgrounds, or even IT teachers with "business" backgrounds) or an actual degree in their subject but it doesn't mean that they understand the most fundamental things they are supposed to be teaching.

There are exceptions, as always, but it's true for the vast majority. At one point, I was tempted to do the extra 1 year PGCE in the UK in order to go back into those schools and show people that, actually, a network manager can do their job in a trice, but they can't hold a stick to a good network manager. Unfortunately, it would mean having to come down to their level for that entire year and I'm not sure I could manage it without pissing myself laughing.

Re:Lack of knowledge not an excuse (3, Insightful)

millia (35740) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651943)

I've worked with them too, here in the US.

And guess what, they're not different from the vast majority of people, either.

Re:Lack of knowledge not an excuse (1, Troll)

Covert Penguin (1094443) | more than 5 years ago | (#26652335)

...Those who can't, teach. -H. L. Mencken

Re:Lack of knowledge not an excuse (5, Interesting)

EdIII (1114411) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651895)

This teacher was a moron. Plain and simple.

You worry about when teachers only "teach" with their ignorance while abusing their position. What happens when they use that same ignorance to pursue prosecution from outside authorities and to have the student permanently expelled?

I have been in the Principal's office with the police in the room with the Principal screaming like an idiot asking for me to be arrested and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. My crime? I was in possession of the Anarchist's Cookbook. Spittle was flying across the room while passages were being read that described thermite and 10 ways to kill somebody with your finger. It was taken from my backpack from another teacher when I left it in class. The police actually had to calm her down to explain to her that I had broken no laws whatsoever. It took 2 weeks to get me back into school by going to her supervisors and pointing out that I did not even break any rules in school.

I was also through the same situation later on when a teacher that taught computer science claimed that a file left on a "hacked" server proved I was the perpetrator. Why? It had a line of text that said, "Ed did this". Seriously, that was the CSI level proof that required my expulsion from school. I knew the kid that did it and he thought it was absolutely hilarious what happened. At the time my ethics demanded I did not "squeal", so I never said I knew who did it.

It's one thing for people to completely ignorant of what open source software is, licensing models, copyrights, fair use, etc. It's another when they use their ignorance and position of authority to force their ideologies on a student. That's just inappropriate when a teacher does that.

It's something else when a teacher sets out to destroy you over their ignorance. It sucks since a student is most often left in a position that they can't defend themselves at all, even when they are right and innocent.

Re:Lack of knowledge not an excuse (4, Funny)

anothy (83176) | more than 5 years ago | (#26652077)

see, that's kinda the reaction i was going for. i wish i'd gone to your school; my administration mostly just squirmed and looked at me uncomfortably. ;-)

Re:Lack of knowledge not an excuse (1)

Octorian (14086) | more than 5 years ago | (#26652081)

Whats more of a concern is that there are a lot of people who take everything the teacher says as the gospel. Years later, you run into these people, and they have an incorrect assumption about how something works. You try to correct it, but they have a hard time believing you because that teacher supposedly has far more credentials.

Of course I really cannot blame the teachers in all circumstances here, because for every ignorance-related gaff, there are probably several forgivable brainfarts. I think the real problem is the students who just accept what they are told, and don't realize that perhaps that fancy professor might actually have gotten his facts wrong.

Re:Lack of knowledge not an excuse (1)

deraj123 (1225722) | more than 5 years ago | (#26652533)

Whats more of a concern is that there are a lot of people who take everything the teacher says as the gospel. Years later, you run into these people, and they have an incorrect assumption about how something works. You try to correct it, but they have a hard time believing you because that teacher supposedly has far more credentials.

This seems to be a small part of the problem of taking education as gospel. I am still working a fair bit of what I take for granted out of my brain. It's probably on close to a weekly basis that I realize that I'm not sure how I "just know" something, and on further reflection realize that it's because a teacher told it to me, and it turns out to be completely inaccurate. It wasn't until college that I realized that nothing they were teaching was "absolute" but it took even longer to realize that I had "learned" so much before that I still retained as "the way things were".

Re:Lack of knowledge not an excuse (3, Interesting)

jellomizer (103300) | more than 5 years ago | (#26652395)

Most teachers aren't smart. Sorry but it is true. They think they are they brag how they have a masters degree. (and complains that it is the lowest paid job that requires a masters)

I am not saying they arn't really good teachers out there who are incredibly smart and excellent teachers but most of them are not.

First lets cover why they became a teacher. They will say they want to help kids etc. That is the BS answer. The real reason is because they have a lack of imagination on what other jobs are available that offer a middle class life style. They know what school is and what the job as teacher mostly consists of. So they spend their life in the school system because it is what they know.

Second Fear of Math and Science, why is there a shortage of Math and Science teachers. Because people go into teaching as it is a degree that you don't need to take Advanced Math and Science class. They don't even have to take pre-calculus (Depending on the college and state). All their courses are taught in a similar fashion mush like English classes. While Science and Engineering Majors need to take some of those type of classes and more Math/Science driven classes, we actually get a more robust education then the teachers do. The people who are not afraid of math and science go to a degree that will pay better.

Third the Masters degree is a joke. The schools know it is required for these people to continue their career, so they are not going to make it tough or challenging. It is more the same except the course numbers are 500s and 600s with perhaps one bigger paper thrown in. Heck there is even a class that teaches the teachers the current slangs for sexual references, that they might cover in the class. Even the MBA program which is light and fluffy compared to Science and Engineering Masters degrees teaches useful skills and concepts and when needed they tell you you are going to need to use Math to solve these problems.

Forth tenured jobs are way to secure. I understand the reason for tenure is to protect the teacher from government pressures or from parents (say you were also a coach and you didn't let Johnny, son of a House Representative in the basket ball team because he absurdity sucked, so he called on daddy to get you fired, your protected) But it creates a counter culture which puts people in a lull. If your job isn't at risk and the union will avoid any pay for performance measures, what motivation do you have to teach at high quality and improve yourself. You are not going to change careers as yours is safe and a guarantee raise. So over time the teachers mind just kinda rots to a point where it teaches what he/she has taught for the last 20 years, only adding a new tidbit of information every 5 years just so kids realize that we have actually landed on the moon.

Fifth their ego, our culture want they put them as being smarter then everyone else, which actually creates and opposite effect. For example at the time I had a job which did laser printer repair (including the color ones), however I was brought on board as a software developer The bubble pop forced be to do both jobs. I couldn't convince a teacher that the primary colors that they taught us in school are incorrect (Red, Blue, Yellow). But there are 2 sets of primary colors depending if they are pigments which absorb light (Cyan, Magenta, Yellow) or admit light (Red, Green, Blue). She was so stuck on what was on the Elementary School art color wheel, and her rational is that is a teacher with a masters degree so she is right.

There is massive resistance from teachers when they are forced to learn something themselves. A class on public relations to teach them to better handle parents and students. Technology education... You name it after they get there masters degree learning has stopped for most teachers.

You mean like Noam Chomsky? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26652543)

When he opens his pie hole, unless something about linguistics comes out of it then he has zero credibility beyond that of Joe Six-Pack.

As an aside, this Helios guy really has his panties in a wad. Of all the things to be outraged about... It doesn't help him present his cause to educators when his rants are full of butchered colloquialisms and terrible grammar. How about you take a Valium, Helios, and then focus your efforts on reaching kids with Open Source software instead of trying to browbeat some bureaucrat with concepts that are clearly beyond their grasp? Eventually said bureaucrats will retire/die and be replaced with all of the kids brought up to not fear OSS.

What?! (4, Insightful)

Thanshin (1188877) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651481)

Things have got to improve, and that improvement needs to start with misguided teachers getting their facts straight."

Getting their facts straight?

The first improvement must be raising the bar for the teaching community.

This includes, among other things:
- Raising salaries: It won't work to appeal only to the rejects.
- Firing for gross incompetence. As works with just about everyone else.
- Requiring a higher level of knowledge and teaching abilities.

Also, it would be nice to raise the public awareness about the importance of the teaching profession. One of the main pillars of the future of a country is currently seen as just a simple job anyone can do.

Just my humble opinion, and I'm sorry if I offended you.

Re:What?! (2, Interesting)

linal (1116371) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651583)

I can not agree with with you more. I've shared (and still share) student housing with people training to be secondary school teachers. One of them is genuinely smart and would be a great teacher. However I've meet people who are becoming teachers because they think it will be easy and after a five minute conversion with them have been left with the feeling that they struggle to get dresses in the morning by themselves.

More money to teachers and dissuading lazy people to become teachers is clearly the best option regardless of the subject or area of teaching that they are entering.

Re:What?! (5, Interesting)

AvitarX (172628) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651679)

I agree with your points 2 and 3, but there is serious risk of raising salaries too much. Especially at the younger levels.

The desire to teach is a HUGE positive in a teacher, and currently most teachers could be making more money. This means they are taking a portion of their pay in job satisfaction (don't let them fool you, it is a great job that makes you feel good).

Paying enough that teaching appeals to people in it for the money is risky.

Also, teachers with a good education make decent money, certainly as much as any other entry level job for someone with a liberal arts degree. I don't know what people make with science backgrounds though, but I bet it is more.

Re:What?! (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26651839)

A desire to teach without competent ability to teach is of no value.

Higher salaries mean those who already desire to teach are better able to justify that career path. Teaching is an incredible time commitment and most teachers are not compensated adequately. Far from "being in it for the money" we are asking teachers to essentially pay us (with their time) to educate our children. We risk losing those teachers.

We also miss out on otherwise competent individuals who are not willing to make the financial sacrifices require to become teachers. Frankly, I don't care if my child's teacher is "in it for the money" if he or she is giving my child a quality education.

Enable our schools to punish incompetence and problem teachers will not be a problem at any pay scale.

Frightening hypothesis (5, Insightful)

fantomas (94850) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651873)

You make some good points but I am a bit frightened about your hypothesis that paying people a good salary to do a job they love is risky, and if you only pay people a poor salary then you'll gte higher quality staff as only the highly passionate will apply to do it.

My personal opinion as a university researcher who works alongside teachers in a local secondary school is whatever they get paid, it isn't enough! :-)

And seriously, pay high, then lots of people will compete for jobs, then the school gets to choose a high quality teacher. I'm afraid I don't buy the line that if you want really high quality staff, pay really low wages.

Children are the future of society, the people we'll depend on when we're old and need to rely on others. Surely we want to spend as much as possible on their education, it's what they do for most of their waking life for ten years...

Re:What?! (1)

MrNemesis (587188) | more than 5 years ago | (#26652279)

In principle, yes, it shouldn't be necessary to have to provide a big salary to attract the best teachers to the profession.

But the problem is that some of the most valuable core skills in teaching will often net you double the salary and double the prospects for promotion in the private sector than they will in your local comprehensive. Once you throw in long hours, interminable bureaucracy, very high stress and kids that really don't want to be taught and have no concept of discipline, teaching becomes a very unappealing profession to all but the most dedicated or those willing to sacrifice themselves. To me at least, any career that involves such a high degree of martyrdom is lunacy, no matter how much a kick I get out of sharing my knowledge.

Being a teacher for a private school is another matter, but the situation in many state schools is dire. And I'm one of those people who believes that a good education should be available to everyone, because in the long run it benefits everyone.

Re:What?! (1)

twosmokes (704364) | more than 5 years ago | (#26652393)

The desire to teach is a HUGE positive in a teacher, and currently most teachers could be making more money. This means they are taking a portion of their pay in job satisfaction (don't let them fool you, it is a great job that makes you feel good).

What kind of horseshit is this? So because you enjoy your job you shouldn't be paid competitively? And employers shouldn't be able to pay those who are good at it well?

Paying enough that teaching appeals to people in it for the money is risky.

I know. You might get someone who *gasp* knows what the fuck they're talking about and is able to do a good job. Your attitude infuriates me (if you haven't noticed). Teaching is NOT volunteer work. It's a career. An important fucking career.

Re:What?! (4, Interesting)

Registered Coward v2 (447531) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651681)

Also, it would be nice to raise the public awareness about the importance of the teaching profession. One of the main pillars of the future of a country is currently seen as just a simple job anyone can do.

Just my humble opinion, and I'm sorry if I offended you.

I agree with your comments, and would add:

Parents need to take an positive, active role in their child's education

I know a lot of teachers, and they have far too many stories about parents who whine:

"It's your fault my little darling is failing. You aren't doing enough. What are you going to do to get them to pass?"

Of course, the parent has been told repeatedly that their darling cuts class, fails to turn in work, is high in class, misses makeup tests, etc., and there response is to do nothing and continue to blame the teachers.

Not to mention those that try to call teachers at home, on weekends, etc. Even though any teacher with half a brain doesn't give out home numbers parents find them any way.

I couldn't teach, because the first time I got that "What are we going to do?" crap I'd tell them unless they got a mouse in their pocket there isn't any we in this. And flunk their sorry kid.

Call me at home and you're likely to discover your phone number has been mistaken for a free sex number.

No wonder many of the good ones leave for other jobs where they don't have to take all this crap.

Re:What?! (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26651889)

Call me at home and you're likely to discover your phone number has been mistaken for a free sex number.

Um, tell me more about these 'free sex numbers'. I'd, er, also like to give these out instead of my home number..

Re:What?! (1)

jbolden (176878) | more than 5 years ago | (#26652515)

Setting parental expectations is something that schools need to do. Parents need to know what their part of education is. And maybe someone should talk to the "little darling" and find out why they dislike school so much: too easy, too hard, wrong subject matter. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect a school to try and engage a student.

Re:What?! (5, Insightful)

Nevern (1464289) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651865)

I agree with the improvements listed, but you should know that schools are reluctant to hire teachers with Master's degrees or higher. Due to the contracts they have to be paid more!! Well, they've had more training and know their area of specialty better, so what do you expect? The benefits to the students are also higher. When push comes to shove The Budget rules all.

Re:What?! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26652123)

I've been in that situation. I started with a Master's when I went in to teaching and the school that hired me only did because they don't pay well (even for a Master's) and they were desperate for a computer teacher. I'm, at least in my opinion, one of the "good" computer teachers, but I do agree that there is a lot of ignorance, especially in high school computer education. Most computer teachers from my high school were either math or business teachers teaching a single computer class. I even had the marching band director teaching my first programming class using QBasic. I went into teaching strictly because I wanted to get kids interested in computer science by actually knowing what I was doing.

Re:What?! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26652165)

NYS requires that you get one. And yet their education system is far inferior to the one here in Iowa, where a Master's is not required.

Re:What?! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26652245)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA yeah thats interesting seriously though i hope your moms dick heals over

Helios Blog Entry Is Crap! (1, Informative)

SerpentMage (13390) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651485)

I read the blog entry and could not believe the garbage.

Linux on the server side is fantastic, and it works very very well. However, on the desktop things are not so clean cut.

When I read:

>Open Office documents send and receive .doc and exel spread sheets just fine.

What a load of garbage! Open Office can send and receive those documents so long as they are not that complicated. And therein lies the issue. You are nervous to use OpenOffice because an translation error could hit you at the wrong moment.

>Why are you denying computer users simply because they choose to use a more secure operating system?

Be very very careful of what you write! If Linux on the desktop were to get the kind of attraction that Windows or more recently OSX does we would be seeing very different pictures.

Remember OSX, based UNIX, said that they had no virii. Ooops, not that OSX is becoming popular it seems that there are a few security loopholes. The same thing would happen to Linux since hackers are a determined lot.

Linux needs to stop the smug attitude because users don't care about smugness. They just want things to work!

Re:Helios Blog Entry Is Crap! (4, Insightful)

ChienAndalu (1293930) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651515)

Remember OSX, based UNIX, said that they had no virii. Ooops, not that OSX is becoming popular it seems that there are a few security loopholes. The same thing would happen to Linux since hackers are a determined lot.

Linux needs to stop the smug attitude because users don't care about smugness. They just want things to work!

Please, don't use the word "virii" anymore.

And, as you said, Apache is very popular as a web server, and still isn't as vulnerable as Microsofts IIS.

So no, vulnerability does not always rise with popularity.

Re:Helios Blog Entry Is Crap! (4, Informative)

SerpentMage (13390) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651581)

Apache is a different situation. Apache has been around since the Internet and as such has fought the battles.

The problem with Linux and Open Office is that they have not been in broad use in the context of a desktop. And as such the traps related to the desktop have not been exposed.

Many of the worst problems are because people click on things that they should not be clicking on. Linux does not have that type of idiocy proof technology built in. Windows and Vista have that built in. It is also a reason why I hate Vista.

Here is a very simple example. If I want to open a port below 1024 I need admin rights. Well what about above? Nope don't need it. This was done in the days when anything below 1024 was considered important. Though now it has become irrelevant and as such could be a security threat.

http://www.linuxquestions.org/linux/node/2179 [linuxquestions.org]

From the article...

> I wonder why. Isn't it time to declare the port 1024 limit as obsolete too and remove it?

Re:Helios Blog Entry Is Crap! (0, Redundant)

Bearhouse (1034238) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651661)

Mod up! I'm a big fan of both Linux and OO, but a lot of people seem to have a dangerously smug attitude towards security. As they get more popular, especially with non-expert users, more vulnerabilities will be found and exploited.

Still, the FOSS community does have a good record of discovering and fixing severe problems quickly IMHO.

vulnerabilities (1)

speedtux (1307149) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651925)

As they get more popular, especially with non-expert users, more vulnerabilities will be found and exploited.

No, they won't. The difference of security between Linux and Windows isn't due to open source or due to popularity, it's due to software distribution: people get all their Linux software from the distributor; almost nobody needs to install third party applications. That eliminates most sources of viruses and malware.

Re:vulnerabilities (1)

abigsmurf (919188) | more than 5 years ago | (#26652025)

Most viruses are caught either through stupid users clicking something they shouldn't or through exploits, most commonly through the internet browser but also through opening infected files using a certain piece of software .

The majority of windows users get their software through distributors too.

Re:vulnerabilities (1)

Bearhouse (1034238) | more than 5 years ago | (#26652035)

Whilst there's some truth in what you say, this is interesting "Globally, the source of the most number of infections for these top 100 malware is the Internet, specifically in surfing unknown or malicious sites, or accepting links offered in unsolicited email."

http://blog.trendmicro.com/most-abused-infection-vector/ [trendmicro.com]

Sure, there's probably a FOSS program for nearly everything you need, put that won't stop idiots or non tech-aware people downloading malware-ridden crap from the net becuse of banners flashing 'look, free telephoning/pron/whatever *certified* virus-free!!!

Re:Helios Blog Entry Is Crap! (3, Insightful)

Registered Coward v2 (447531) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651745)

Linux needs to stop the smug attitude because users don't care about smugness. They just want things to work!

I agree. Most teachers simply do not have time to learn about Linux, FOSS, etc. they're too busy trying to keep up with all the paperwork, requirements, and BTW teach to worry about that stuff; and they're not about to spend money on a continuing ed class that doesn't get them either con-ed credits or a higher qualification

In addition, most districts are very restrictive about what can be loaded on district machines, so most teachers won't even try FOSS for fear of getting in trouble over IT rules. It simply isn't worth the hassle.

OTOH, you can make it easy to show teachers how FOSS can benefit student. If a teacher want's students to do presentations, providing a clear set of directions on how to install OpenOffice and set it up to save in an Office compatible format, so they can offer that as an alternative to parents buying Office, helps them at minimal effort on their part and generates awareness for FOSS.

Instead of assuming teachers are the enemy look at things from their perspective and see what you can do to make things easier for them.

Re:Helios Blog Entry Is Crap! (2, Insightful)

speedtux (1307149) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651881)

What a load of garbage! Open Office can send and receive those documents so long as they are not that complicated. And therein lies the issue.

Microsoft Office itself has serious interoperability problems between versions. As a result, you're no worse off using OpenOffice than you would be using Microsoft Office.

You are nervous to use OpenOffice because an translation error could hit you at the wrong moment.

I'm not. I'm nervous to use Microsoft Office because its file formats and user interface keep changing haphazardly, because it is buggier than OpenOffice, because it is prone to viruses, and because it is horrendously expensive.

Re:Helios Blog Entry Is Crap! (1)

speedtux (1307149) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651905)

Linux needs to stop the smug attitude because users don't care about smugness. They just want things to work!

Well, then switching from Windows to Linux is the first thing they should do, since things already work a lot better on Linux than they do on Windows.

When Windows users supposedly have problems with Linux, what they are really saying is that Linux doesn't work the way they are used to or with the software that they have used.

Guess what: you can't fix the problems with Windows and remain 100% compatible. If you want to be better than Windows, you need to be different and incompatible. Linux is better than Windows, hence it has a different user interface, different file formats, different system management, different software packaging, etc.

Re:Helios Blog Entry Is Crap! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26652433)

Linux needs to stop the smug attitude because users don't care about smugness. They just want things to work!

The bit about "smugness" is complete nonsense. No one takes a survey of the community's personality when deciding which OS to use. In fact, one could argue that smugness is at the core of Apple's marketing strategy.

It is true that people want things to just work, but it's also irrelevant to your point because things *do* just work on desktop Linux - at least as much as they do on any other OS. Try, for example, to install OSX on your system. See how well that just works. Or install Windows and see how many of your peripherals work out-of-the-box. Some setup is required, to say the least.

Frist psot? (5, Insightful)

L4t3r4lu5 (1216702) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651497)

I agree totally.

The use of F/OSS software in education at ALL levels would be a total boon for IT education across the board. Interest in alternative licensing, for example GNU Public and Creative Commons would be tremendously beneficial in this age of free information sharing and distribution.

I distinctly remember a question on a sample IT GCSE paper from when I was at school, related to anti-virus software:

Q. Your friend tells you that his computer has a virus, and wants help. What do you do?
A. Tell him to purchase an anti-virus product.
B. Tell him to send you the virus so you can scan it with your anti-virus software.
C. Give your friend a copy of your anti-virus software.
D. Tell your friend to download a "cracked" anti-virus program from the internet.

I selected C and got it wrong. I spent 25 minutes arguing with my IT teacher about AVG and free software. He agreed, and told me that the paper was wrong. However, the mark scheme said A. and that's how it was marked.

No idea if they used that question, or similar, at any point.

Re:Frist psot? (1)

L4t3r4lu5 (1216702) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651519)

Not first, so ignore the title.

Secondly, the ICT Teachers at the school I used to tech for (Midlands, UK) would insist on calling the entire case of the PC the "hard disk" even in class. I felt so sorry for those kids, but I couldn't say anything about it. It's what the spec said.

Re:Frist psot? (1)

Octorian (14086) | more than 5 years ago | (#26652169)

Even more people, including those that should know better, call the entire case "The CPU." I'm sorry, but "The CPU" hasn't filled an entire case since the pre-microcomputer era.

Re:Frist psot? (1)

strawberryutopia (1301435) | more than 5 years ago | (#26652219)

Not first, so ignore the title.

Secondly, the ICT Teachers at the school I used to tech for (Midlands, UK) would insist on calling the entire case of the PC the "hard disk" even in class. I felt so sorry for those kids, but I couldn't say anything about it. It's what the spec said.

So did mine at one point. But then, this was the same guy who said that an equilateral triangle had a right angle...
He used to be an English teacher, but the school hired him to teach maths and IT for some reason.

Re:Frist psot? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26652167)

Actually the correct answer is:
E. Tell your friend to download AVG free or Avast.

IIRC the license for AVG free allows you to only install one copy for personal use and not to redistribute the installer.

Re:Frist psot? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26652171)

What, no option E: Help your friend by offering to clean the virus from their computer for them.

Christ, what happened to "help thy neighbour"? Have schools become this ridiculous that not only do they want to specifically ban the kind act of sharing, but worse, their minds are so twisted they can't even think that someone might want to lend someone a helping hand? Is this the sort of impression our kids are getting out of school?

No wonder shit like Bratz is popular.

AVG not free (3, Informative)

Locklin (1074657) | more than 5 years ago | (#26652353)

From AVG free edition's Licence agreement:

Any commercial use of the software, and any resale or further distribution of the software, other than as expressly authorized by this agreement, constitutes a material breach of this agreement and may violate applicable copyright laws.

Looks like you were advocating copyright infringement. Clamwin [clamwin.com] is the only Free Software virus scanner I know of.

But it's true!!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26651523)

Distributing Linux is criminal! It's a threat to our native industries and to the people who work in them!!! It must be true, since I read it here - look 'Linux servers crash once a week'...

http://www.microsoft.com/canada/getthefacts/default.mspx [microsoft.com]

Wait (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26651529)

>A HeliOS blog entry exposes a "higher education" culture of apathy, lies, and fear of open source software.

HeliOS is far from what I would call a 'reputable source' you know...

this is an american phenomenon (4, Informative)

ChienAndalu (1293930) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651541)

Here in Germany, I never experienced any hostility towards open source software in the educational system.

The universities are quite supportive of open source and lend their infrastructure to host mirrors for various distributions.

Re:this is an american phenomenon (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26651579)

I think the author is referring to schools ( age 18 ) rather than universities.

Re:this is an american phenomenon (1)

dunkelfalke (91624) | more than 5 years ago | (#26652043)

schools are also open source friendly as long as there is someone who can support the software a bit.

Fake (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26651683)

The whole HeliOS story about the teacher was fake. Sorry, try again.

Do they ever! (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26651685)

Do they ever! I know far to many teachers & profs in Canada that spout non-sense every time i even suggest OpenOffice" ...

If I suggest gnu/linux (even ubuntu) ... I get some crap like "well at least I use a Mac" ... to which I can only respond "Good for you! You make too much money!"

The ignorance of teachers on basic technology as boarding idiocy ... and half the ones I know (even close friends) are mindless technological drones!

Open source has reached a tipping point ... and whether people want to admit it or not ... it is totally ready for prime time ... as a matter of fact IT IS PRIME TIME!

Re:Do they ever! (1)

TheKidWho (705796) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651855)

You're on the internet posting on slashdot, you're making too much money. Get back to working the field.

Priorities (3, Insightful)

abigsmurf (919188) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651699)

You could write a list several pages long about what teachers 'need' to know or the teach, each of them is a huge deal to someone somewhere. Schools teach HTML using tags that would make the W3C tear their hair out, few schools teach proper web safty or how to more effectively use search engines, there's only ever a narrow range of programs taught etc.

Each of these things is a big issue but all these things can never be resolved. You only have so many school hours in a day to teach people. Yes learning CSS alongside HTML would be good, but that takes time and is harder to teach. Yes teaching OO alongside Office would be beneficial but again that takes more time.

There's only so much you can teach classes before students either get overloaded with too much info in too little time or you have to push something out.

It's why so many places force teachings of things like slavery or the holocaust. You can't cover all of world history in a history class so you have to prioritise some things at the expense of others.

Why should this be different? (4, Insightful)

Aladrin (926209) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651711)

Why do we expect this to be different than everything else? New things are initially feared and only approached slowly. It's the way we've done it since the dawn of time.

Techies are on the bleeding edge of everything and keep themselves informed constantly. But just like I don't follow car news, most people don't follow computer news. They don't have any clue what 'open source' really means and they don't care!

The solution isn't to call them names, the solution is to just keep educating people about it... Slowly.

Open Source has been gaining momentum lately. It used to be it was 'free and able to be modified, but poor quality'.

Recently, I've seen a change. It's now 'free and able to be modified, and almost as good as commercial software'.

I believe it will soon be 'free and better than commercial software'. I certainly like Kubuntu better than Windows and OS X, and I used to really hate Linux because it was such a pain in the ass all the time. I just wanted to do things, I didn't want to constantly reconfigure the system and deal with all the broken bits from the latest update. Kubuntu still has a lot of that, but it only happens every 6 months, instead of every few days like it used to. (Debian Stable was -not- stable. And Slackware was much worse.)

Open source has definitely taken over for anyone who 'gets it'. At this moment, I've got Firefox, OpenOffice.org, Aptana (based on Eclipse), VLC, and Kate running on OS X. The only commercial apps I run now are ones that don't really have a replacement, like Pages (company requirement for internal docs), and a few that are just plain better than the alternatives, like VMWare. (I've fought and fought with VirtualBox, and I'm done.)

But to expect non-techies to know all of this all the time is absurd. Most of the advancements that make my system possible came in the last couple years. That is a -short- timespan for learning about new things that aren't in your realm of knowledge.

In fact, I see posts on /. all the time talking about how someone put OO.o on a family member's computer and just didn't tell them it wasn't Office because they couldn't explain the difference. If techies can't explain it to their family, why do we expect teachers to know automatically?

And 'sorely in need' of an education in open source? That a personal agenda and not something that is necessary at all. Kids will learn about open source on their own, no matter whether a teacher says it is bad or not.

Shelley The Republican (1)

The MESMERIC (766636) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651715)

Looks like the teacher has been taking anti-Linux parodies [shelleytherepublican.com] a little too seriously.

Re:Shelley The Republican (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26651779)

And so bigoted Democrat assholes want to cut her to pieces, like Ken Starks. He apologised for it, but that's unusual.

Democrats are far more often convinced that they are right, when actually being hateful shitheads who love nothing more than cutting up "evildoers". Like Starks.

Re:Shelley The Republican (1)

The MESMERIC (766636) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651833)

Ah ... if only British voters had such passion for party politics.

Re:Shelley The Republican (1)

stranger_to_himself (1132241) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651961)

Ah ... if only British voters had such passion for party politics.

Never listened to a Five Live radio phone-in?

Re:Shelley The Republican (1)

The Cisco Kid (31490) | more than 5 years ago | (#26652041)

No one can possibly be that stupid, can they? That has got to be a hoax site.

Cost, Maintenance (4, Interesting)

ehaggis (879721) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651719)

As an IT Manager for a school, I was able to roll out several open source solutions - Edubuntu (for a low cost scalable lab with low end equipment), open source groupware, firewall, proxy, content filter, Thunderbird,Firefox, linux kiosks and more. Teachers and administrators don't care if there is proper training and the bottom line is low. Children don't know the difference between closed and open source either.

Why is it all about teachers? (2, Insightful)

dangitman (862676) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651727)

This seems to be alarmingly biased. It's more about bashing teachers than anything else. Are teachers, as a whole, any less informed about Open Source than the general public? I don't think so.

This is just taking a couple of alleged incidents, with no real proof that they happened, and turning it into a political screed. So why is it that the teachers bear all the responsibility, when it is not even part of their curriculum?

Re:Why is it all about teachers? (2, Interesting)

hitest (713334) | more than 5 years ago | (#26652047)

I am an elementary school teacher, I teach a grade 4/5 classroom. I have a small computer lab (20 computers) in my classroom consisting of a mix of Windows, OS X, and Linux. I've built up the lab over the years on spare, throw away computers. At home I run Slackware and FreeBSD. My students are not intimidated by technology and adapt easily to a variety of desktops, OSs. I've run Linux/Unix for 6-7 years; I'm self taught with no formal IT background. Sadly, many of my colleagues do not understand the concept of open source software. This does not, however, make them poor educators. Universities do little to prepare us for implementing technology in the classroom.The adoption of FOSS is an evolutionary process and it will take time. I'm doing my part to spread the word about alternate ways of computing. We need to be patient.

Re:Why is it all about teachers? (1)

Locklin (1074657) | more than 5 years ago | (#26652397)

Are teachers, as a whole, any less informed about Open Source than the general public? I don't think so.

Not that it's the teacher's fault, but if FLOSS advocates want to change anything, Teachers should be more informed than the general public.

He's full of it on at least one point (1)

MikeRT (947531) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651759)

If $150 breaks the bank, then you need to reconsider how you are going to college. Especially if you are going to be spending all of that money on a degree like an English degree. Too many people are going to college when they can't afford it or shouldn't be going there, and $150 is chump change compared to what even in-state tuition costs. Especially when you consider the fact that these Microsoft licenses are one-time deals for the entire duration of college.

Re:He's full of it on at least one point (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26651945)

If $150 breaks the bank, then you need to reconsider how you are going to college. Especially if you are going to be spending all of that money on a degree like an English degree. Too many people are going to college when they can't afford it or shouldn't be going there, and $150 is chump change compared to what even in-state tuition costs. Especially when you consider the fact that these Microsoft licenses are one-time deals for the entire duration of college.

You're full of it, college/university is free. To many people aren't going to college in the US because they can't afford it, not because they're stupid.

Saving $150 means that you can afford two or three of your books for that semester.

Re:He's full of it on at least one point (1)

Locklin (1074657) | more than 5 years ago | (#26652465)

When I was in Undergrad, there were times when $150 would "break the bank." Considering that to do my science degree on all proprietary software, I would have needed licenses for more than just office software -it all adds up pretty fast.

Too many people are going to college when they can't afford it or shouldn't be going there

I would prefer *not* going back to a system where only the rich get educated. If anything, it should go the other way: more stringent admittance policies and lower tuition.

expose them (2, Insightful)

speedtux (1307149) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651781)

I don't see why people are letting teachers like "Karen" remain anonymous. These people are paid for by tax dollars and are responsible to the public. If they promote commercial software to students and write nasty letters to non-profits, the public has a right to know.

Rather than getting into a pissing contest with her, he should just have said thank you, posted the letter on his blog, and sent a copy to the pta.

moodle? (1)

Hagar129 (314058) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651817)

http://moodle.org/

Teachers are 'slow' anyway (1)

The MESMERIC (766636) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651843)

I should know .. I used to be one :)

Re:Teachers are 'slow' anyway (2, Interesting)

Bayoudegradeable (1003768) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651947)

Also as a teacher, I can observe what anyone today can observe. What is the average age of a teacher? Unless you are in some hurricane recovery school or some white hot new charter school I'd be willing to say the majority of teachers are women 45-60+. An assumption perhaps, but do you think this crowd would be anywhere near tech savvy?

Firefox is apparently a proxy. (3, Funny)

raving griff (1157645) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651853)

An example of this scenario: Earlier this year, the principal of my school got on the intercom in order to make a very important announcement: that Firefox was "some sort of proxy" and that any students caught using it or installing it on any school computer would be immediately suspended for a one-week period. That had to have been the most WTF thing I've heard from the administration on opensource software.

I took an intro to Linux class (2, Funny)

Paradigm_Complex (968558) | more than 5 years ago | (#26652311)

I felt lazy and wanted some free credit, so I took an intro to Linux class. I thought it would be a breeze considering I've been using Linux for so long. I had no idea how many things [according to the school] I apparently do wrong. Rather than an obnoxiously long list, here's my absolute favorite:

"I want you to get into the habit of logging in as root"

):

make her beg (1)

jjgorsky (1427247) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651911)

That story on the Register is terrible. Talk about burying the lead.

It does say "Updated" but the related stories don't have any others.

The way they phrased it, it's obscure until you get deep into the story why she was getting attacked and exactly how much she deserved it. If anything, she should have been sued for slander if she made any of those comments about it being "illegal" to her students or otherwise publicly.

I found her pleas for mercy highly entertaining. Reminds me of the guy that taunted Maddox: "Maddox, I am sincerely apologetic... Please please take it down. If you any shred of decency please. This is all wrong. Please take it off."

OSS needs a people handling education (1)

Xest (935314) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651927)

I hate a lot of teachers as much as the next person. Having done a few years of IT support in education I know all too well how dire some of them can be especially when it comes to computers.

But there has to be a realisation that not all teachers need to use IT to teach their subject and more importantly, to them, knowledge of open source software is completely and utterly irrelevant knowledge for what they need to do their job. There's a lot of things that different people suggest teachers need an education in but at the end of the day, they're only human and only have so much time and capacity for knowledge. After all, the RIAA wanted teachers to have an education in how bad copyright infringement is to pass onto the kids too but I'm sure many will agree here that's a waste of teacher's time.

An attitude whereby people in the OSS community demand teachers be given an education doesn't really sound much different from the idea of political re-education forced upon people by repressive regimes around the world through the years. It's also like the idea of Jehova's witnesses visiting my door every Sunday peaching their ways because apparently I need an education in religious rubbish too according to them. I know the people making these claims that OSS is superior believe this is true and it's an opinion I share at least in some product areas but it is just opinion and you can't "educate" people with opinion if they don't share it or simply aren't interested in it.

If OSS wants to break further into education it has to provide products that fill a niche or do a better job of existing proprietary solutions focussed on teachers needs. I have witnessed this as being successful in that when a few teachers I've dealt with encountered products such as Audacity, MIT's Scratch and so on they were then led to enquire a little more about this open source thing and stumbled across more products in the process. We were fortunate enough that one of these people was an IT coordinator and so the school now, 5 years on since first discovering OSS still afaik runs Linux which they switched to around 3 years ago, but this is still unfortunately only one school in the 153 we supported.

OSS isn't going to win the battle for hearts and minds as it were by thrusting knowledge onto people in such an agressive sounding manner, many of whom it's irrelevant to. It needs to do it by simply beating the competition, and if it can't, then well, that's tough- at the end of the day there's no god given right that OSS should be chosen if better properietary solutions exist and educational institutes are willing to pay.

Where pushing the OSS agenda could come in useful is at PTA/school board meetings and the like, if the advantages are spelt out well there then that's where real progress can be made. There is no room for zealotry when doing this, it requires people with a level head who can address concerns and accept valid criticisms but also offer where possible, solutions to those criticisms. One things for sure though, pushing the agenda on to teachers forefully will only increase resentment against the community, they need to find it for themselves which they will do if it's there and most importantly- if it's relevant to them.

Re:OSS needs a people handling education (1)

mblase (200735) | more than 5 years ago | (#26652049)

If OSS wants to break further into education

You can stop right there, actually.

In my experience, the only education most OSS developers are interested in providing begins and ends with the acronym "RTFM."

This is the least of teacher's worries... (5, Insightful)

quetwo (1203948) | more than 5 years ago | (#26651941)

What teachers really need is :
  - Basic computer training. You would be amazed as to how many still can't figure out basic things like email, powerpoint or other similar 'basic' applications
  - Updated material. I was talking with a friend who is still in high-school, and his civics book still has no mention of the 42nd or 43rd President. Oh, yeah, and his European Culture class still has a chapter about the Berlin Wall -- an object that hasn't been apart of European culture since before he was born.
  - More salary. Many of the bankers went before congress defending their massive bonuses and payouts to employees using bailout money in order to retain the best talent. How are we ever going to get the best talent into teaching if we pay them slightly above minimum wage?! Show me a teacher that hasn't reached tenure who isn't struggling, and I'll show you a person who must have married rich.
  - Better Student/Parent relationships. If teachers wouldn't be spending all their time baby-sitting, they could actually teach relevant stuff. School isn't a place where kids learn, it's a place kids > age of 5 go for the day while mommy and daddy are at work.

Once these issues are fixed, then maybe teachers could spend some time learning about the latest FOSS craze.

Re:This is the least of teacher's worries... (1)

pyster (670298) | more than 5 years ago | (#26652021)

If I had mod points I would mod this up.

Re:This is the least of teacher's worries... (1)

Nevern (1464289) | more than 5 years ago | (#26652215)

AMEN!! Very hard to get information into them when you have a percentage that are learning-disabled and mainstreamed with other students who also have a right to your time and full attention. How about adding at least one para-teacher per class like Coaches have assistants??

slowly changing (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26651995)

My daughter's school is the pilot for our county in the adoption of Open Office -- we are in Stafford county, the 12th richest per-capita in the US!

However, when we still get "do a powerpoint" as a requirement and when math teachers have not heard about open source projects like octave, gnuplot, etc., we have a problem....

Also, the school board rules still prohibit "altering computer date or programs" or "removing computer data or programs", so I guess they can't even log in or save a file without violating the rules....

Well considering there is NO SUCH THING as FOSS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26652011)

http://2038bug.com/free-software.html

It is hence of very little benefit to have
kids running around telling people to install
Linux where it just won't work.

Starks missed a career as a punk rocker (1)

macraig (621737) | more than 5 years ago | (#26652019)

... or maybe speed metal. He sure knows how to bang it. His rants remind me of Queen Kat (Katherine Thomas).

I don't disagree with all his arguments, but he manages to come off as so histrionic that even people like me already in the choir don't want to listen to him. How can this guy ever come across as rational to people who aren't already in complete agreement?

Re:Starks missed a career as a punk rocker (1)

macraig (621737) | more than 5 years ago | (#26652031)

Ummm... I meant GREAT Kat. Sorry.

You're worried about open source... (1)

mblase (200735) | more than 5 years ago | (#26652039)

...when we still have science teachers denying evolution and the occasional history teacher downplaying the Holocaust? Let's get those educational issues straightened out first, and then we can worry about Linux which, let's be honest, is far less essential to the average high school diploma.

Incompetant School IT Pathology (3, Insightful)

LaminatorX (410794) | more than 5 years ago | (#26652069)

In my current work, I actually train school IT staff and administrators on the use of an automated phone calling system and batch database synching tool. Some are competant and professional. Some are clearly the office secretary in a little school who has sadly had this thrust upon her. Many fall into the following category:

  • Age: early 50's to early 60's, trailing edge of the Baby Boom.
  • Education: Original BA in Education or Math, acquired decades ago. Possibly an MA in Education earned in the late 80's or early 90s.
  • IT Qualifications: Did some retraining in the 90's when the school computerized in order to get out of the classroom or counseling office and get a raise. Likely an A+ or MCSE, supplemented by basic vendor training on their student database.
  • Job Role: Most time is spent fixing the same five problems caused by computer semi-literate colleagues teachers or playing students over and over again. Occasionally a large task like a new grading software or office suite rollout comes along, and is completely overwhealming for months.

This profile, while a stereotype, is a significant portion of the "IT Professionals" in primary and secondary ed field today. They're adequate for performing the basic day-to-day tasks in front of them, but when you get outside of their comfort zone they're lost. They get hassled and/or blamed for any surprises that come along, and as such are extremely gunshy about anything unfamilliar.

Their approach is calcified and overly cautious, as any changes, even beneficial ones, tax their time to the limit. It may well be that major inroads of F/OSS into education will either have to be mandated from the top down, or wait until most of these people retire and are placed by people who have a modern IT background.

CIS with Teacher Certification (1)

Kreisler (992371) | more than 5 years ago | (#26652175)

One solution would be for universities to offer a CIS degree track that carries teacher certification. Right now, I don't know of any schools where you can get an education degree in computer science or information systems. As a result, you get people teaching IT/CIS who have their primary training in another field. Like the coaches who get stuck teaching social studies because they need to fill time, some IT teachers are the English teachers or Librarians who get thrown into the computer classroom because they are really good with Google or know how to change themes in PowerPoint.

free software (1)

rpillala (583965) | more than 5 years ago | (#26652187)

The thing I love about free products is that I can easily recommend them to my students. I can't do that with commercial software. This is because a) software vendors do their own advertising, and b) it's very easy for me to sit there and spend kids' money that they may or may not have. The ability to recommend software to students would be a big plus for any teacher I know. I think it should be presented that way to teachers. Now of course this applies to the higher level applications, not so much to OS, but it's a start. Once all the high level applications are platform agnostic, it becomes a simple transition (for the end user) to change the OS.

I've got a number of kids who are really into GIMP now, and a couple who are dual booting. It's a start.

How To Identify The Teacher (1)

littlewink (996298) | more than 5 years ago | (#26652255)

She called him on his cellphone. Cellphone records are public and can be purchased. I can purchase yours, you can purchase mine [americablog.com] . So buy his cellphone records for the period of interest. Her phone number is the one originating in the Austin area.

which requires teachers with an open source educat (1)

FritzSolms (859937) | more than 5 years ago | (#26652407)

Damn, where to start??&^%#@#@

here (1)

OneSmartFellow (716217) | more than 5 years ago | (#26652411)

Teachers need an education.

fixed that one too !

OpenKinder (1)

fluffernutter (1411889) | more than 5 years ago | (#26652445)

I think we should teach Open Source concepts in Kindergarden. Isn't that when they teach that it's good to share, work as a team, and care about others? How sad that we loose those values so soon in life and they are not usually reinforced.
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