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Java EE 6 Platform Draft Published

Soulskill posted more than 5 years ago | from the rather-drafty dept.

Java 74

synodinos writes "The public draft of the Java EE 6 Platform specification has been published and will remain open for public review and feedback until the 23rd of Feb, 2009. Perhaps the most notable part of this delayed draft is the Web Profile, which is first profile in the history of the Java EE platform. The draft is available for download and contains both the Java EE 6 Spec and the Web Profile Spec. There is a poll running at java.net regarding what the community thinks about the new spec. Although participation is yet rather small the results tend to show that the released draft did not cause any excitement."

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Java (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26678593)

There are gorrillas on the Island of Java, part of Indonesia. I know this because I have mated with them. Smooth, luscious, hairy breaks with pizza-sausage nipples which cause KoKo to say, "OO...OOO!" when they are being nibbled.

Gorrillas usually do it doggystyle. That was the position in which KoKo and I first made love. It was problematic because of the muscle tone of her buttocks. She would clench up so tightly that she would push me right out of her if not painfully squeeze my penis.

So then we started doing it missionary. I taught her to lay on her back after receiving a banana as a treat. That way, I could enter her and the angle wouldn't put my manhood in danger. I know when I bring her to orgasm when she screams, "OOOOOOO! OO! OO! OOOOOOOOO!" and tries to pound her chest like King kong but pounds my back instead because i'm on top of her. It's not painful and very enjoyable!

We now share a one-bedroom hut in the forest. I go hunt for food and she takes care of our child(actually, I'm the baby's stepfather, the baby's real daddy abandoned the mother shortly after the birth of the child. We decided to name the child "oo-ooo" and he took his first steps a few days ago. KoKo always smiles when she sees the photograph of our baby taking his first steps. He'll grow up to be a fine Silverback.

Re:Java (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26678743)

A troll post that doesn't mention jews or niggers? Who are you and what have you done with slashdot?!

Re:Java (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26678791)

I'm calling bullshit. The Gorilla penis is 2 inches long. Either you're hung like a chinaman, or you'd be hitting her cervix -- and any girl who's visited a gynecologist will tell you that it's quite painful.

Re:Java (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26678915)

OP here. I'm actually a former zoology professor who was forced to leave my native Japan after my employer, the University of Tokyo, demanded that I resign after 24 years of tenured service. It was one of the most painful experiences of my life for two reasons: (1) I had to leave my alma mater and (2) I was no longer allowed to see Tomoko, the baboon I fell in love with.

One of my graduate students had noticed that I was spending too much after-hours time in Tomoko's cage. I would emerge at strange hours in the early morning reeking of estrus piss while covered with thick, beige hair. My early days in the jungles of Sumatra and Borneo had a long-lasting effect. Anyway, my grad students had secretly reported me to the Dean and they set me up. Tomoko cried and wailed when she saw the university cops take me away.

I used my wealth to move to Java, where men are men and anything with a butthole is a woman :)

Re:Java (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26679347)

Thank you for reaffirming my faith in slashdot trolls. Keep it up.

Re:Java (0, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26680555)

There's no cervix up the ass.

Re:Java (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26678911)

How do you write this shit fast enough to get a first post?

Re:Java (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26679079)

Look I posted lower and when I started writing there were 10 posts, and innocently, i was happy with post number 11 (two ones are better than one, right?)

when I posted BAM! another post! damn! I think these guys write their stuff in notepad save it and then - omg a story! quickly copy-paste.

 

Frosty Piss (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26678657)

Just for you cock sucking niggers to waste your faggot mod points on, you dirty hebs.

Java.net (4, Funny)

goombah99 (560566) | more than 5 years ago | (#26678721)

that's got to be sacrilege?

Re:Java.net (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26679709)

Lol, java.net probably predates Microsoft .NET though.

JEE 6? (2, Insightful)

SirLurksAlot (1169039) | more than 5 years ago | (#26678869)

I'll settle for 5 at this point. My shop is still using 1.4.2; it feels like I should be writing code on stone tablets! I suspect this is the case in any number of Java shops and it just reinforces the idea that Java is going to become the new COBOL. There is so much "legacy" code out there right now, and because of the inconsistencies between versions I can't see it going away any time soon.

Re:JEE 6? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26678963)

Java 6 has been out for a long time.

This is about Java EE. The spec that application servers implement (EJB, etc). Not the JVM version.

Also J

Re:JEE 6? (1, Interesting)

rubycodez (864176) | more than 5 years ago | (#26679191)

but the java ee kits have reference implementations with a certain jdk, for ee 5 it was java 6 update 11.....can one really take a java 1.2 sdk and implement a java 6 ee server api?

Re:JEE 6? (4, Informative)

wawannem (591061) | more than 5 years ago | (#26680275)

The answer is "no," but for a different reason than what you may be thinking. Certain language features have been introduced recently that are used in these draft specs. For instance, for Servlet 3.0, one can configure a servlet with annotations (rather than configuring in the web.xml). Annotations weren't introduced until JDK 1.5. So, the JEE spec isn't tied to a specific JDK, but the JDK you choose at least needs to be able to support all the constructs referred to.

Re:JEE 6? (2, Insightful)

Dogtanian (588974) | more than 5 years ago | (#26679279)

Java 6 has been out for a long time.

This is about Java EE. The spec that application servers implement (EJB, etc). Not the JVM version.

Yeah, well here's an insightful and funny comment [slashdot.org] on (I assume) J2EE:-

My hatred of Java has nothing to do with speed. The platform has become a giant morass of 'enterprisey' 'solutions' that create more need for more 'solutions'. And all Java 'solutions' must somehow involve XML, because it's standard, and enterprisey.

Re:JEE 6? (0, Flamebait)

visualight (468005) | more than 5 years ago | (#26679451)

How many flavors of java are there now? Too many I think, even the abstraction layers distros use to manage the mess don't work half the time. It's gotten to the point where if I discover the only existing solution is written in java I just go without.

Really, I don't even try anymore. There may be some great software out there that runs super fast and bug free, but I'll never know, don't want to know.

Re:JEE 6? (1)

ibwolf (126465) | more than 5 years ago | (#26679977)

There may be some great software out there that runs super fast and bug free, but I'll never know, don't want to know.

Yes, because all software written in other languages is super fast and bug free.

Re:JEE 6? (1)

visualight (468005) | more than 5 years ago | (#26680171)

You've responded to an assertion I did not make. Is that because my actual assertion(s) cannot be rebutted? Or do you think people reading this will fail to spot the obvious logical disconnect between your comment and mine?

Re:JEE 6? (4, Informative)

canistel (1103079) | more than 5 years ago | (#26680689)

I feel the same way about c / c++ software... if it doesn't come in the standard package for my system (i.e. in the repository) you can forget about getting it working on your system. The sheer mess of libraries and versions needed for this and that, never mind the build systems etc., make it impossible to get anything to compile and run.

Pick your poison... I'm a java developer, and the first applications I grab (when there are more then one available for the "problem") is one built in Java.

Re:JEE 6? (2, Funny)

visualight (468005) | more than 5 years ago | (#26681129)

There's one glibc.

Re:JEE 6? (1)

Raenex (947668) | more than 5 years ago | (#26690511)

There's one glibc.

Funny, I was just reading this today: Glibc hell [mail-archive.com]

Re:JEE 6? (1)

visualight (468005) | more than 5 years ago | (#26706961)

You found a glibc version dependency and you think that means there's more than one glibc?

Re:JEE 6? (1)

Raenex (947668) | more than 5 years ago | (#26709183)

You responded to somebody complaining about versions of Java. I'm not really sure what your actual complaint was about "flavors" of Java. You know glibc is just one flavor of a library for C used by GNU's C compiler (itself just a "flavor" of C), and there are many versions of it. My experience with Java has been just to get it from Sun and it works about as well as any other library dependency.

Re:JEE 6? (1)

thetoadwarrior (1268702) | more than 5 years ago | (#26679579)

Just because your company stays in the stone age doesn't mean everyone else is.

It's unfortunate but it may be best for your company if stability means more than new features an it's that way with any language.

Re:JEE 6? (2, Interesting)

rve (4436) | more than 5 years ago | (#26682783)

My current employer has outsourced nearly all of their IT and software development to IBM.

IBM itself estimated the cost of migrating and regression testing all server side software from Websphere 5.x to 6.0 (which will support J2EE 1.4, not Java EE 5) was deemed so prohibitively high, that they instead offered to extend support for the officially discontinued Websphere 5.x.

Supporting multiple versions at the same time, during a long transition period would increase operating cost significantly. I will be surprised if the customer moves to a websphere version that supports java EE 5 or higher within the next 5 years.

At another customer, in the same sector and of similar size, the situation was not much different.

Replacing something old fashioned but still functioning just fine can be very painful if this will mean a nine figure cost and a project of several years.

Re:JEE 6? (2, Interesting)

Ilgaz (86384) | more than 5 years ago | (#26685767)

Interestingly, IBM is also the company who provides a working Java 6 on PPC/Linux for years, years before Apple supported J2SE 6 on Intel (64bit Intel only).

Currently, if your need to run Java 6 on PPC, your only chance is installing a PPC Linux (not sure about BSD) and run IBM Java on it. I also keep wondering how the heck Apple doesn't call their old friends at IBM and borrow some code to fix the scandal of no Java 6 on PPC OS X.

Some wings of IBM are very old fashion but some aren't. Perhaps the enterprise division carries "don't fix a working thing" motto?

Re:JEE 6? (1)

petermgreen (876956) | more than 5 years ago | (#26687981)

Currently, if your need to run Java 6 on PPC, your only chance is installing a PPC Linux (not sure about BSD) and run IBM Java on it.
It probablly is your best bet for the moment.

The good news is that openjdk with the patches from icedtea does run on powerpc and afaict work is progressing reasonablly well on getting a FOSS JIT written for it.

Re:JEE 6? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26708741)

it was a case of bad engineering from start; there are no valid motives for which a properly code application wouldn't load on newer application containers.

Re:JEE 6? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26681155)

Sean Kelly has previously stipulated that Java has become the COBOL of the 21st century. (See his webcast about 'Better Web App Development'.)

Re:JEE 6? (1)

Raenex (947668) | more than 5 years ago | (#26690595)

Sean Kelly has previously stipulated that Java has become the COBOL of the 21st century. (See his webcast about 'Better Web App Development'.)

That looks to be from 2007. This "Java is the new COBOL" has been going around for a lot longer:

http://oreilly.com/pub/a/oreilly/editors/java_1004.html [oreilly.com]

The State of Java
Edited by chromatic
October 2004

"Has the big business-friendly approach turned Java into the new COBOL?"

Re:JEE 6? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26692045)

Java is much much more than the new COBOL. COBOL will be dwarfed by Java when it comes to legacy. Think of it: COBOL was never the language used for the very first programming courses. While Java has the particularity to be both widely used in academic circles and in the Real World [TM].

FedEx, GMail, eBay. All the biggest websites are powered by Java.

We've seen examples of "smart" websites designed by "smart" dudes in a garage using "smart" languages that then couldn't scale and had to be re-written in Java to be able to handle the load. GMail, eBay, FedEx. Enough said for the Web.

You cannot make an electronic payment (wire transfer, e-wallet, whatever, ...) nor remove money from an ATM without having Java involved in the process.

Java's legacy will dwarf COBOL to lenghts that Java haters can only have nightmares of.

I discovered that language last century (already) and I knew it was going to be big.

It's bigger than what any of you Java haters out there can imagine and it's not stopping anytime soon.

Re:JEE 6? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26707059)

We were in the same boat until recently. We are finally upgrading to JDK6 while still supporting our existing 1.4.2 customers by using Retrotranslator. The rentrotranslation does have a few quirks, but on the whole the process has been relatively smooth and definitely worth it to be able to use all the changes introduced in Java 5 .

Not surpisingly, uninteresting (4, Interesting)

DiegoBravo (324012) | more than 5 years ago | (#26678877)

From TFA:

There is a poll running at java.net regarding what the community thinks about the new spec...

I like it 12.1%
I think the main spec is missing important JSRs 3%
I think the web profile spec is missing important JSRs 6%
I don't like it for some other reason 6%
I haven't read it, but plan to 9%
I haven't read it, and don't plan to 63.6%

Well, most people never read the specs (that are normally boring and with a lawyer-like style) but most Sun specs appear to being ignored because of bad timing for appearance (usually too late.) The "hot thing" are mostly the open source frameworks, from which Sun ends copying at the end.

The same is happening, albeit radically, in the Mobile editions with Android, despite the Sun auto-acclaimed ubiquity of Jave ME.

Re:Not surpisingly, uninteresting (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26678999)

Well, most people never read the specs (that are normally boring and with a lawyer-like style) but most Sun specs appear to being ignored because of bad timing for appearance (usually too late.) The "hot thing" are mostly the open source frameworks, from which Sun ends copying at the end.

Specifications are not there to innovate, but to define a common set of standards which are meant to be used by different vendors. So copying ideas from open source frameworks are not a bad idea : if you set a standard, would you prefer to use ideas from something that already works in the real life or something "designed by comittee" which would be a PITA to implement and use ?

Re:Not surpisingly, uninteresting (1)

DiegoBravo (324012) | more than 5 years ago | (#26679369)

>> Specifications are not there to innovate, but to define a common set of standards which are meant to be used by different vendors.

Tell it to Sun, that way they would never have a business.

Re:Not surpisingly, uninteresting (3, Interesting)

Serpent Mage (95312) | more than 5 years ago | (#26679059)

Or if you look at the current poll numbers and not what it was when the article was first written

I like it 28.2% (26 Votes)
I think the main spec is missing important JSRs 6.5% (6 Votes)
I think the web profile spec is missing important JSRs 4.3% (4 Votes)
I don't like it for some other reason 4.3% (4 Votes)
I haven't read it, but plan to 14.1% (13 Votes)
I haven't read it, and don't plan to 42.3% (39 Votes)
Something else (please comment) (0 Votes)
Total Votes: 92

See some things take time. There might be many who don't plan to read it but there are also those who are actually reading it before putting in a vote. Those numbers come in a bit slower then the ones who don't plan to do anything at all.

Re:Not surpisingly, uninteresting (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26679201)

here's the link to the poll: http://java.net/pub/pq/244

let's give them some feedback people!

omg, the slashdot capcha says: "You must wait a little bit before using this resource; please try again later." what does that mean?

Standards should be conservative (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26679337)

Most people are not going to read the standard before it is final: I don't. The only reason to do that is if you intend to give feedback on it (if you do that because you plan to use it in the next project, good luck to you who chooses to use a non existing technology for your project), and that's a fairly limited subset. Most of us will wait for the thing to come out, try to use it, see if it's any good, and then either use it while bitching about how it could have been better of not use it while bitching about on how crappy it is.

If a spec writer doesn't do anything except looking and what goes on in the market and then, after it is clear what approach is the winner, writes a standard (including the people that are winners in the industry), well then they are actually doing their job!!!

Standards are good to freeze what we know that is good. Standards that are in paper or that are written by people who "think hard" are seldom useful.

Re:Not surpisingly, uninteresting (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26683175)

Umm...

good article

http://www.thaigle.com

I read the spec, (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26679013)

I find it very interesting that the JavaEE 6 spec is ... ... ... ...

ah forget it!

11th post, yes that got to be more interesting than the spec!!

Look at my face - is it bothered? (5, Insightful)

sgodden (1466075) | more than 5 years ago | (#26679107)

I've been leading the development of Java applications for around 8 years. On that journey, I have used fewer and fewer features of it with each succesive project.

Nowadays, it seems that specs are a kind of summary of what has been learned from the frameworks which were created in the trenches by people that actually needed to deliver.

My latest project, which has been in development for around 1 year, delivers as a plain web application, and uses Hibernate, Google Guice, AspectJ and Echo3.

It's wonderful.

Sun don't have the capability, and I'm not sure that anyone has, to provide a full and relevant specification that will allow code to be developed that will run on any application server from any vendor.

Instead, choose your implementations and go back to good old OO basics to design interfaces behind which to hide those implementation choices. You don't need Sun to do that for you.

Re:Look at my face - is it bothered? (1)

visualight (468005) | more than 5 years ago | (#26679507)

Sun don't have the capability, and I'm not sure that anyone has, to provide a full and relevant specification that will allow code to be developed that will run on any application server from any vendor.

And that's why end users groan when a good idea gets written in java.

I disagree with your assessment of Java (3, Interesting)

HardWoodWorker (1032490) | more than 5 years ago | (#26680153)

Ignoring your grammar difficulty, the majority of useful applications out there require a non-embedded database solution...therefore, some configuration is mandatory, for pretty much any application on any platform. To all of you complainers, I work on an application which deploys successfully to Jetty, Tomcat, JBoss 4.2, and Glassfish (as just the ones I've tested). In fact, I test it on all 4 platforms on a regular basis. Sorry, but it works perfectly for me.

Java is a great platform that gives excellent performance and scales well. Outside of initial JNDI datasource configuration (which is technically optional, but very much a best practice), I've had relatively few issues deploying from container to container. I think you folks are exaggerating the effort needed to successfully deploy Java applications.

I'm sorry, learning Java requires a bit of effort. It is a serious language designed to do serious work and optimized for larger, mission-critical projects. It's my first choice of a tool for writing a server side project and the one of the very few I'd choose for a project with more than 3 coders (.NET is the only other serious contender in the arena of large projects). I'm sorry you're having so much difficulty and all I can suggest is that you spend a little more time reading the tutorial and documentation and less time spreading baseless FUD.

I really wonder how many of these critical statements in these comments are being made by experienced, proficient Java developers, and how many are simply being made by a bunch of second rate self-proclaimed coders who are bitter that Java requires a bit greater understanding of OOP and the language to write a useful application than PHP or Ruby.

Testing??? (-1, Troll)

jonaskoelker (922170) | more than 5 years ago | (#26680433)

In fact, I test it on all 4 platforms on a regular basis.

Why test? You only have to write once, and then it runs everywhere...

What do you mean "cut down on the kool aid"?? ;)

Sigh... (1)

jonaskoelker (922170) | more than 5 years ago | (#26691655)

Sigh... Was it not clear I was going for funny? Or was my joke that offensive? :(

Re:I disagree with your assessment of Java (1)

visualight (468005) | more than 5 years ago | (#26681731)

Look, every defense of java I see is from developers and that defense is ostensibly about developing in java. How about considering how much it sucks for end users and admins who have to manage all this stuff?

Sure, just about every kid that graduated in the last 5 years knows java, I understand why there's so many java developers, but ffs with so many of you you'd think you'd be able to get together, pick one and say THIS is java.

No joke, I've seen devs in the same shop that struggle all day trying to get each others code to run each others workstations.

Re:I disagree with your assessment of Java (1)

rnideffer (948422) | more than 5 years ago | (#26681817)

Java is a powerful programming language, but its also very easy to write code in. Meaning you dont have to have any understanding of machine architecture or memory to program it, but its easy to write programs that run slow as shit. Especially if you graduated from an Indian street-corner university where they dont teach that.

Re:I disagree with your assessment of Java (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26691913)

This is bullsh*t.

I've developped both server-side and fat-client (GUI) apps in Java and it's trivial to make the exact same .jar/.war/you-name-it run as-is on different OSes/platforms/JEE stack.

Sure you can shoot yourself in the foot.

But developers struggling having each other's code run on each other's workstation? Either you or these developers don't know what Java is about.

Latest fat-client here even uses Java 1.6 features when avail but falls back automagically to Java 1.5 when the end user's system only supports Java 1.5 (stay stock MacOS X 10.4.2)... All this from a single .jar.

When you actually *know* how Java works, you realize how incredibly powerful it is.

Re:I disagree with your assessment of Java (1)

oreaq (817314) | more than 5 years ago | (#26687457)

I work on an application which deploys successfully to Jetty, Tomcat, JBoss 4.2, and Glassfish (as just the ones I've tested)

That's nice. So it runs in the web container. By the way: Which web container do JBoss and Glassfish use? So it's only two different runtimes, isn't it. The compatibility nightmares come when you integrate your Java application in a typical enterprise setup. With SAP, CICS or IMS/DC, FileNet, ICR/OCR Servers, legacy C and C++ applications, .Net, WebSphere MQ and lots other stuff. That's what JEE was designed for. At least the 80% of it that are not about the relative trivial task of generating HTML for which PHP or Perl or Ruby are much better suited.

self-proclaimed coders who are bitter that Java requires a bit greater understanding of OOP and the language to write a useful application than PHP or Ruby.

So Java is better because it is more difficult? Yep, the self-proclaimed coders are a very real problem.

Re:Look at my face - is it bothered? (4, Interesting)

CynicTheHedgehog (261139) | more than 5 years ago | (#26679769)

I've never seen a serious commercial product shipped independently of an application server. I've always though of an application server to be more of a framework. As a product author/vendor, I make choices about which application server best serves my product. Then I build around it. When I sell to end users, I either enter into some kind of licensing/support agreement with the application vendor, or I require the end user to purchase licenses and support themselves.

The spec exists so that developers can write components that can interoperate with various application servers. For example, I can write a data connector for a proprietary mainframe application and use JCA to include that in distributed XA transactions. That resource adaptor can be used on virtually any application server, but the way it is deployed and configured will differ.

Or I might write a custom JAAS LoginModule to support some kind of proprietary authentication requirements. Again, the ability to integrate into an application server is undisputed, thanks to the specifications, but the mechanisms by which it is integrated is left to the implementor.

To support full drop-in interoperability, Sun would have to control all of the details of deployment and configuration, and then there goes competition. Everyone would just grab a copy Glassfish and rebrand it, because how then would you innovate?

As a developer I'm glad that there are differences in application servers. The various classloading strategies, configuration interfaces, and monitoring tools ensure healthy competition and innovation. And if something becomes ubiquitous (or problematic enough) then it gets added to the standard. (EJB3 is largely Spring+Hibernate, standardized, and Seam+Facelets is on its way to standardization through JSF 2 and WebObjects.)

One last thing. I've worked in shops that ran Tomcat plus a few third party libs (i.e. Struts and Hibernate), and I've worked in shops that have used the full JEE stack. In the former, we had infrequent but persistent problems with transactions (lost updates, etc.) that required implementing a lot of proprietary transaction management code. Using the full JEE stack you have things like JTA and JPA that manage locking for you, which can be painful if you don't know what you're doing. But it forces you to deal with real issues rather than pretending they don't exist, which is a must for true enterprise applications. The same can be said for resource pooling, security, managing web sessions and conversations, and many other issues.

There are server-independeds apps (3, Interesting)

abies (607076) | more than 5 years ago | (#26680401)

I've never seen a serious commercial product shipped independently of an application server.

It depends on definition of 'serious' of course, but I was working for a company producing software for airline operations (briefing/loading, no booking nor avionics/realtime). We had number of clients, including some really big names in Europe. Software was written in J2EE and it was used on 2 different application servers, on 2 different databases (3 combinations in total) - only because companies we were supporting were mostly standarized on Websphere, so there was no need to test it on more. There is NO way any of the big names out there would start supporting new application server just to install our ear, which was probably managing less than 10% of their web activities.

Yes, it was a pain to port it from Websphere to Orion, but it was done by one guy in period of few months and after that I'm quite sure that next port would be already a brief (as most of WAS-specific stuff was cut off/replaced). My proposal to cut it properly and port it to Tomcat, getting rid of EJB was unfortunately ignored...

Re:Look at my face - is it bothered? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26682445)

Sounds like you want .Net

Re:Look at my face - is it bothered? (1)

CynicTheHedgehog (261139) | more than 5 years ago | (#26695287)

I realize this is a troll, but I'll bite. I've used .NET and I was very impressed with the visual design tools. The ASPX + codebehind setup was very intuitive and powerful, and the DnD/WYSIWYG interface worked well and as expected. I also loved C# (which is vastly superior to Java, IMO), especially the notion of properties, events, and expression execution (the former of which are an improvement over the pre-existing JavaBeans spec, but the latter of which was innovative and copied poorly in Java Unified EL). I changed jobs shortly after .NET 1.1 came out, so I don't know what subsequent versions had, but my biggest gripes with .NET were:

  * Poor support for web service interoperability (especially document/literal)
  * No ORM solution (NHibernate is out now, but I don't know if .NET proper has an answer for this)
  * Reliance on all sorts of other MS products (IIS, SQL server, DTS, etc.)
  * Unintuitive/cubersome deployment methodology (xcopy, DLL versioning, difficult to share libraries across sites, etc.)
  * This may be my own ignorance, but I also don't remember any kind of object pooling, RIM-IIOP analogue, or distributed computing frameworks (ala remote EJBs and clustering).
  * The IIS-based security system also left a lot to be desired.

And the number one gripe, of course, is the archaic NPE deep in some MS code that I can't look at because it's not open source, and waiting 3-4 days to get an answer or resolution from MS tech support. I much prefer to have source code and message boards.

Re:Look at my face - is it bothered? (1)

adrianmsmith (1237152) | more than 5 years ago | (#26683403)

Can you give us more detail on the "shops that ran Tomcat .. had infrequent but persistent problems with transactions (lost updates, etc.)"?

Re:Look at my face - is it bothered? (1)

CynicTheHedgehog (261139) | more than 5 years ago | (#26695085)

The shops that ran Tomcat generally used JDBC or some in-house persistence framework. In either case, there were no facilities for dirty checking or optimistic locking. So if user A loads an object into his session and modifies it; and user B loads the same object into her session and modifies it, then the changes made by whomever commits first are lost. Small shops generally ignore this problem as it happens infrequently enough to warrant serious development time, and usually end users catch the error and fix it manually. Or they will identify a particularly problematic section of the app and implement some kind of DB-driven pessimistic locking (select for update) which has its own issues (stuck locks, timeouts, etc.).

JPA fixes this by making dirty-checks and optimistic locking functionality part of the spec. You can still choose not to use it, but it's trivial to use and generally most tools will enable it by default.

The other issue is transaction scope. I've seen implementations where every user gets a connection and holds it for his entire session. Then I've seen implementations where a new connection is retrieved from a connection pool before every JDBC statement. When you use container-managed persistence, then you are forced to deal with things like transaction scope, and the defaults are usually sane enough to use without additional configuration.

Finally, if you are executing multiple transactions against multiple resources, then JTA+XA saves you the hassle of implementing your own home-grown 2-stage commit process to handle distributed transactions. A lot of places will just let the commits happen when they happen and then manually fix problems that pop up do to partially completed transactions, but that's sloppy and easily avoided with JEE.

Re:Look at my face - is it bothered? (1)

leomekenkamp (566309) | more than 5 years ago | (#26686951)

(...) through JSF 2 and WebObjects.

To be a little pedantic: the name was Web Beans; WebObjects is Apple's framework. JSR-299 now has the oh so sexy name: Java Contexts and Dependency Injection [relation.to] .

Re:Look at my face - is it bothered? (1)

CynicTheHedgehog (261139) | more than 5 years ago | (#26695109)

Yes, thank you for the correction.

Re:Look at my face - is it bothered? (1)

roman_mir (125474) | more than 5 years ago | (#26680571)

Well, I've been leading development of various applications done mostly in Java for the past 11 years, and I wouldn't use Hibernate, Google Guice, AspectJ and Echo3 in any of them, though sometimes we end up using some of it. I often end up removing these and other technologies from the messy projects that are passed to me after the original team is done f.cking around with them.

Kudos to the JCP (4, Interesting)

thammoud (193905) | more than 5 years ago | (#26679323)

It might be slow but it has been very successful. Sure many specs never saw the light of day. That is to be expected from every committee.

Like it or not, Java is king on the enterprise server-side. J2EE sucked at the beginning but successive versions addressed many issues required by the enterprise. Persistence (Hibernate, Toplink), transactions and messaging (JMS) and the many available and free implementations. Thank you Sun for sticking with the JCP. Standards are wonderful.

We have an ASP platform built on J2EE 5.0 handling hundreds of millions of transactions a day all on a free stack thanks for the JCP and Linux.

I will duck now since this is /. home of the anti-Java.

Re:Kudos to the JCP (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26679335)

now if we could only get rid of some of that XML.

Re:Kudos to the JCP (1)

thammoud (193905) | more than 5 years ago | (#26679389)

You are right. However, with EJB 3.0 most if not all of the XML is gone. EJB2.0 was a disaster. The JSF and friends will benefit greatly from your point. XML is annoying.

Re:Kudos to the JCP (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26679617)

yes java5 @annotations are a blessing to EJB3 but there are still some frameworks out there...

security, app-servers are full of it, to name a few,

I'd much rather have a

public static void main(String[] args) {
      new ClusteredJBoss(new Tomcat(), new HibernatingPostgreSQL()).start();
}

Re:Kudos to the JCP (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26679689)

Annotations aren't the biggest improvement of EJB3. It's "Convention over Configuration". A good convention to minimize configuration for trivial cases is the jackpot.

Now it will take a few more years until they reach a standard as productive as Grails.

Re:Kudos to the JCP (1, Funny)

upuv (1201447) | more than 5 years ago | (#26680497)

I will duck now since this is /. home of the anti-Java.

Actually it's the home of anti M$. So you should be ducking on the mention of ASP not Java.

Re:Kudos to the JCP (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26680627)

believe he meant "Application Service Provider", not "Active Server Page".

Re:Kudos to the JCP (1)

upuv (1201447) | more than 5 years ago | (#26680673)

That makes more sense cause ASP env's just don't scale :)

Re:Kudos to the JCP (2, Interesting)

Ilgaz (86384) | more than 5 years ago | (#26685725)

Most of people doesn't get the "EE" (enterprise edition) in the article and comments on story like hitting a poor java applet/application on desktop while they have never seen/worked on enterprise environment. It happens to any Enterprise/non general thing mentioned on slashdot.

As far as I know, J2EE is the actual thing which saved the mainframes and near all finance industry runs on it.

I bet if some article posted regarding (true or not) .NET enterprise features, it would get comments like "but .net is 990 MB install" and stuff like that which aren't really cared in that focus.

For a genuine, truly reasonless beating you should check Real Networks stories. They went open source, shipped a full working media player for Linux, solved the mp3 patent issue, offer their million dollar patents free to GPL projects and numerous things. Some guy will still popup and say "spyware". It never fails to happen.

Java EE Irrelevant? (2, Insightful)

ssfsx17 (1192943) | more than 5 years ago | (#26680157)

The only times when I've had to look up the EE APIs these days are when I need a refresher on the guts of a HTTPServletRequest/Response or a SQL Connection. Otherwise, Struts, Spring, Hibernate, derivatives of the previously mentioned items and the like are the de-facto standards.

no its not (1)

wzzzzrd (886091) | more than 5 years ago | (#26681979)

concerning the web layer you're right on the spot, its too low level and should not be dealt with directly, but jpa, session beans and mdbs are pretty sound and simple and should be dealt with directly, everything else, except for specific business needs, is nih and overhead. and hibernate is in fact a jpa implementation. and with spring, well you have an alternative to application servers, but jee is NOT about just application servers anymore.

Re:Java EE Irrelevant? (1)

inline_four (594390) | more than 5 years ago | (#26728669)

JDBC is part of JSE.

Java has almost completely replaced by C++ (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26681519)

Not matter how much upgrade Java will never ever be able to catch up with C++

did not cause any excitement (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26688355)

pretty well sums up the state of the Java language in general

Personal Anecdote (1)

BigBlueOx (1201587) | more than 5 years ago | (#26725341)

And worth exactly what you paid for it.

I work at the MegaMegaCorporation in IT and we were "tasked" to "implement" a "departmental solution". I.E. we were told to write an app for a small bunch o' end users. The app we came up with used Java, Hibernate, Guice (for DI), Spring (for JMS) and Apache. Since we were in the Java world we had a huge range of OSS thingys we could plug into our app that did a whole bunch o' kewel things easily.

+1 for Java - all the widely available thingys

Then, as is usual at the MegaMegaCorporation, an upper management shuffle brought a new MegaMegaCorporateTard into the VP slot overseeing our little hive of worker bees. The new MMCT was demo-ed the 85% complete app we were developing and decided that it was was way too kewel to limit to just one departement; he wanted to make it "enterprise".

We don't have scope creep around here, we have scope explosions.

Anyway, we hit the brakes, wasted a full 2 months on corporate-nonsense design documentation and, in the end, decided to refactor the app into a full stack J2EE app. After I got over the desire to hang myself, I started the work with the rest of the team and found, much to my surprise, that scaling our little departmental app into a MegaMegaClusteredEnterpriseWideApp was, while not easy, at least doable.

+2 for java - it scales - no, really, it does!

My score is Java 3 - everything else I've ever worked with 0.
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