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Apps That Officially Support Wine

kdawson posted more than 5 years ago | from the insert-alcohol-related-line-here dept.

Wine 354

David Gerard writes "Wine (the Windows not-an-emulator for Unix) runs Windows applications more often than not. (Certainly more often than Vista does.) Dan Kegel on the wine-users mailing list/forum has started gathering apps that declare Wine a supported platform. And there's now a Wine Support Honor Roll page on the Wine wiki. We need more apps that work with Wine stating that they consider it a supported platform. If you write Win32 open source or shareware, please open yourself to the wider market!"

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Inaccurate? (3, Insightful)

TrancePhreak (576593) | more than 5 years ago | (#26704723)

There are probably more Vista users than Wine users, so I think the summary is inaccurate.

Re:Inaccurate? (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26704783)

"Certainly more often than Vista does."

This is what gives Slashdot a bad name: completely false (or exaggerated) negative statements in order to promote your own ideas.

I thought one of the premises of Slashdot is that it is unbiased when your news isn't. This kind of shit would be tolerable on Fox News, hopefully it never will be here.

Re:Inaccurate? (3, Funny)

Ethanol-fueled (1125189) | more than 5 years ago | (#26704879)

Your comment might have been instead modded insightful instead of funny if the summary bashed XP instead of Vista.

So thanks a lot, jerk. Now I'll lie awake all night wondering,"Was that guy serious?"

Re:Inaccurate? (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26704923)

I thought one of the premises of Slashdot is that it is unbiased when your news isn't. This kind of shit would be tolerable on Fox News, hopefully it never will be here.

Well, it's a kdawson post. He will post anything that sounds even a little bit sensationalist or bashes something that "true nerds" hate. Nobody knows why he is still /. staff.

Re:Inaccurate? (4, Interesting)

Achromatic1978 (916097) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705261)

And it's a David Gerard article - the guy is a professional Internet troll (responsible for such classy internet sites as lemonparty.org, yourmom.org, and k-k-k.com - don't visit), and part time Wikipedia admin/Wikimedia UK spokesperson (where his favorite pastimes are blocking entire US states for being sockpuppets of banned user, and so forth, this [wikipediareview.com] makes an amusing read). Why am I unsurprised?

Re:Inaccurate? (4, Insightful)

shish (588640) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705235)

I thought one of the premises of Slashdot is that it is unbiased when your news isn't.

When did that happen o_O? Last time I looked at the FAQ, this was taco's personal blog, and he and his guest contributors did whatever they wanted with it ._.

Re:Inaccurate? (1)

Jamie's Nightmare (1410247) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705247)

Posted by kdawson

I could say more, but I think this quote speaks louder by itself.

Re:Inaccurate? (1)

hvm2hvm (1208954) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705275)

Wasn't it just a joke? Certainly seemed like that to me.

Re:Inaccurate? (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26705465)

You really thought slashdot was supposed to be unbiased?? Huh, Well ... Uhm... there's something you should know about santa claus. You may want to sit down for this one.

Re:Inaccurate? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26705481)

/. needs a healthy does of text book logic lessons. Categorical statements such as this not only remove any credibility from the article, they set a tone on /. that encourages more such statements, and so on. This sort of sophomoric drivel in the comments is to be expected, but it has no place in the submissions (at least not those which get green-lighted).

Re:Inaccurate? (5, Informative)

RedK (112790) | more than 5 years ago | (#26704843)

WOOOOOSH. He meant Wine is more compatible with Windows apps than Windows Vista is. He wasn't comparing the installed user base of each. Now his statement was an hyperbole meant to poke fun of Windows Vista breaking many apps when it got released and so it's probably not very accurate. It was meant as a joke. Your response should've been : Haha, moving along...

Re:Inaccurate? (-1, Offtopic)

db32 (862117) | more than 5 years ago | (#26704931)

You have an good point, but you also have an bad grammar problem.

Re:Inaccurate? (4, Funny)

RedK (112790) | more than 5 years ago | (#26704955)

English is also not my first language. Sorry if my grammar melted your eyes or something.

Re:Inaccurate? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26705011)

What if that 'h' is silent for him, you insensitive clod!?

Re:Inaccurate? (0, Redundant)

Urza9814 (883915) | more than 5 years ago | (#26704965)

Eh, his statement is true in my case. Hell, replace Vista with XP and it's _still_ true in my case. Most of the _Windows apps_ that I want to run won't actually run on anything newer than Win98. Or Wine.

Re:Inaccurate? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26705257)

Funny thing is, one of my favorite games, System Shock 2, works just fine (for me) in WINE, while it has very shoddy performance in 2K/XP.

Re:Inaccurate? (0, Flamebait)

davmoo (63521) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705179)

>his statement was an hyperbole meant to poke fun of Windows Vista

That may be what he intended, but what it comes across as is yet another knee-jerk hillbilly comment about Vista from somebody who probably never runs it, or runs it very little. It was possibly funny maybe the first 27000 times someone in Slashdot said something like that, but now its just silly and childish, and rapidly diminishes my interest in anything else the author had to say.

Re:Inaccurate? (3, Informative)

bigjarom (950328) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705267)

As someone who runs Wine and Vista, I have had more problems getting things to run under Wine than Vista; but I have had more problems overall with Vista than with Wine.

I believe that subby was confused on these points.

Re:Inaccurate? (4, Informative)

fm6 (162816) | more than 5 years ago | (#26704881)

What does the number of users have to do with it? He's talking about Windows apps that run on WINE but not on Vista. And there are a lot of those, if you count apps that with features that are broken under Vista, and don't count apps that will run on Vista if you upgrade to the latest and greatest version.

Even so, he's probably exaggerating and/or overestimating. But the fact remains that there's a nasty degree of API incompatibility between Vista and previous versions of Windows. For example, if you have any version of Adobe Acrobat except the latest, you get a file system error if you try to write certain modifications out to disk. Basic I/O operations broken! That's pretty bad.

That said, I'm less then impressed by the list of "works on WINE" apps. The link is to a forum that mentions precisely two of them. That motivated somebody to start a wiki page with a list. There are maybe 20 very obscure apps on this page, and I'd be surprised if they don't all have Linux native alternatives.

When a major software vendor starts talking about WINE support, then we have a real trend. Not before.

Re:Inaccurate? (5, Insightful)

SleepingWaterBear (1152169) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705479)

Even so, he's probably exaggerating and/or overestimating. But the fact remains that there's a nasty degree of API incompatibility between Vista and previous versions of Windows. For example, if you have any version of Adobe Acrobat except the latest, you get a file system error if you try to write certain modifications out to disk. Basic I/O operations broken! That's pretty bad.

I'm not so sure he's overestimating! Given how many years Windows XP and Windows 98 were aroung for, it's a safe bet that there are hundreds of times more apps for those two platforms than for Vista. A rather large fraction of those work in Wine. If a decent fraction of them don't work in Vista (and my understanding is that they don't), then just by number of apps Wine probably runs a lot more windows apps than Vista does.

Of course, the vast majority of the apps Wine runs that Vista doesn't are outdated, or have been replaced by newer version that do run in Vista, but for sheer numbers, I think it's a safe bet that Wine wins!

Re:Inaccurate? (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26705093)

Sorry, the number of users works the other way. As an app maker, I can guarantee you that I've received more complaints that my app doesn't work in Vista than complaints that my app doesn't work in Wine.

Re:Inaccurate? (5, Insightful)

theheadlessrabbit (1022587) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705177)

from the perspective of a computer user (my sig should confirm that I am not a developer) perhaps this is because people expect windows apps to work in the windows world because, "we paid good money for this, it had better work"
while in the linux world, if an app doesn't work, i am not all that bothered by it, because its free, i paid nothing for it, i will forgive the occasional bug, and if it gets bad enough, there is an alternative out there that is also free.

In wine, having an app that was intended for an entirely different operating system actually work just blows my mind. i would never think to complain to the wine team that "x program won't work"

in windows, when an app fails, it is frustrating because I expect commercial software to be bug free.

(note to linux zealots: please don't mod this flamebait, did you notice how i said "IF a linux app fails" and "WHEN a windows app fails")

Re:Inaccurate? (1)

ianare (1132971) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705263)

There's probably more Vista haters than people who even know what WINE is !!

Re:Inaccurate? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26705361)

There are probably more Vista users than Wine users, so I think the summary is inaccurate.

Why is this modded insightful instead of funny? I think it was meant as a joke.

Anyway, the Vista jokes are getting old. It's not nearly as bad an operating system as we all pretend it is. Besides, if you're going to make fun of anything about Vista, don't pick application compatibility -- most of the compatibility issues come from improvements Microsoft made in Vista. Sure, it's bloated and a resource hog, but if we complain too much about application compatibility that just encouraged Microsoft to avoid making improvements to their OSes, and instead clinging to their existing broken model to maintain compatibility with badly programmed applications from 10 years ago.

I think this is a good thing (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26704727)

Hopefully game developers will soon realize they're missing out on a potential market.

Re:I think this is a good thing (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26704745)

True! I'd much rather pirate the linux version of a game than the Windows version.

Re:I think this is a good thing (1)

nemesisrocks (1464705) | more than 5 years ago | (#26704835)

I don't think they'll even realise: most serious gamers will either be running Windows, or dual boot into Windows. The rest probably use Codeweavers' Crossover [codeweavers.com]

Re:I think this is a good thing (1)

FlyingBishop (1293238) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705379)

I once was a serious gamer, but as I've grown up a bit it's less important to me. That said, I enjoy gaming from time to time, and hope that when I upgrade my machine, I won't need to buy Windows 7 to play the latest and greatest. At the moment, I'm content with revisiting games made over the past two decades.

I really can't justify the $200+ investment in Windows, since I would be buying it entirely as a game console. I'd rather just buy a console. I will however, be buying indie games that support Linux. Hell, I do that now.

Re:I think this is a good thing (2, Informative)

Daengbo (523424) | more than 5 years ago | (#26704839)

I've got an "Officially Supported" section in Games That Work [ibeentoubuntu.com] which includes Starport Galactic Empires and Soldat running under Wine. I tried to convince Reflexive (since my gal plays hundreds of their website's games) to let me test and certify games so that they could be marked as "Works with Wine 1.0" on the download site. I was snubbed.

Re:I think this is a good thing (1)

Dreen (1349993) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705007)

Nice site but HOLY BATMAN make that logo smaller

Re:I think this is a good thing (1)

Daengbo (523424) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705239)

I didn't notice the size of the logo until you mentioned it. I'm no web designer, and it's just Blogger.

Anyway, I wish that Wine would be better supported by publishers -- especially the small ones. On that site, I have 80 or so "free trial" games that work well running under Wine. Most of them are the kind that teens or younger would enjoy, and I'm sure that "geek dad" would love to purchase them for his daughter or son just to stop supporting Windows on the kid's computer.

As I said, my original concept for the site was to become a partner with a couple of sites like Reflexive / Tycoon / Big Fish, donate the proceeds to Wine, and get the sites to drop a Wine logo on the games that work. It all fell through.

I also tried to get other "testers" since I don't play much and my gal is obsessed with time management and hidden picture games exclusively. That didn't work out well, either, but I figured I'd try again after I hit 200 games listed on the site.

Re:I think this is a good thing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26705039)

I thought one of the main reasons that games aren't released natively for Linux is that the developers don't want to have to provide tech support for Linux. If they said it officially supports Wine, then surely they'd have to provide tech support for Wine, which is effectively running into the same area.

I know this isn't the only reason. But in these cases, they might as well just release native Linux builds.

This is the reason that Blizzard aren't releasing a Linux WoW client. Linux users can still play through Wine, if they want to, but it's not "officially supported".

Re:I think this is a good thing (1)

ianare (1132971) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705345)

There's a difference between "This game you never heard of should work with WINE" and "Sims 3 : WINE edition".

Re:I think this is a good thing (2, Insightful)

Daengbo (523424) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705467)

Starport Galactic Empires and Soldat are claimed to work on Wine by the publisher. That's a lot more than "should work." Just because you apparently don't think independent games are important doesn't mean that they aren't. In fact, they're probably the easiest to get on the "officially supports Wine" page because they need the extra market wherever they can get it and will do a little testing (maybe even tweaking) to get that exposure.

If you want everything to be EVE Online, you're going to be disappointed.

  • Step 1: Get "Officially Supports Wine" backing to increase the number and genres of games available on Linux.
  • Step 2: Once a beachhead is in place, get devs to do native support ports using winelib.
  • Step 3: Encourage more high-quality cross-platform games.
  • Step 4: Get the big guys on board.

Re:I think this is a good thing (1)

tokyoahead (743189) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705349)

If a Manager/Owner ask an IT-Responsible in a company that is running purely on MS "What would it mean to move to Linux?" they say to 99% "it is too expensive", most of the time because they do not know enough about linux and fear for their Job. It's not the developers, its the (it-)management which has to change. They employ the developers.

Question (5, Insightful)

MyLongNickName (822545) | more than 5 years ago | (#26704729)

How many developers want to put in the extra effort for a 0.1% wider audience? And consider the Linux crowd has the "free (as in beer) software mentality".... so I figure an even less percentage sales increase.

(ducks and covers)

Re:Question (4, Interesting)

Paradigm_Complex (968558) | more than 5 years ago | (#26704753)

While it is a smaller audience, it's a much more valuable one.

When Joe Sixpack needs computer advice, he comes to us. Getting on our good side with things like this can garner far more benefit than just our direct increase in audience.

Re:Question (3, Insightful)

moniker127 (1290002) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705029)

If joe sixpack asked a linux expert for help, he would probably get laughed at for not knowing how to compile the source of the application he was trying to get to run.

Re:Question (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26705133)

A more valuable audience? Sheesh, and people wonder why Linux-fanboys are perceived as unhelpful and arrogant. Linux will *never* catch on with attitudes like this.

Re:Question (1)

bigjarom (950328) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705279)

AC parent is clearly joe sixpack!

Re:Question (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26705283)

99.9999999% of the joe sixpacks of this world wouldn't be caught dead talking to people like you.

Re:Question (5, Informative)

Daengbo (523424) | more than 5 years ago | (#26704919)

This game developer [wolfire.com] claims that making the game available on less-popular platforms increased his sales by over 122%, perhaps significantly over. This was due to getting a lot of exposure for his game on Mac and Linux sites, when the same game probably would have gotten a footnote on Windows' gaming sites.

Re:Question (2, Insightful)

tokyoahead (743189) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705307)

The problem for game developers is finally that the costs of porting the big games to another platform outweighs the profit made by the small number of users. As long as all of the big companies stay with windows, no-one has to jump, since 99% of the gamers stick with windows - to game. If one big one would go ahead, all have to follow, and then the market size does not grow but the support/dev costs does. Same happened with "light" produts (sodas etc) - double your product lineup and do not increase turnover enough to justify it.

Re:Question (0, Flamebait)

Daengbo (523424) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705495)

Did you even read the link? Maybe my summary? This guy says that targeting Mac and Linux made him a bunch of money -- apparently much more than the cost of porting. He claims it doubled to tripled his sales. His numbers. His game. Not my imagination. This only works for independents, not big name games.

Porting is a lot easier if game devs stick to Windows APIs supported by Winelib. Then it's a re-compile and some tweaking.

Oh, and diet sodas appear to be doing quite well in the market. I don't get your comment at all.

Re:Question (5, Insightful)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705095)

How many developers want to put in the extra effort for a 0.1% wider audience?

Developers who find actual numbers, instead of pulling them out of their ass.

And that means doing a little market research. The market for your app may be biased one way or the other. For instance, if you're selling a text editor targeted at programmers -- or better yet, an SCM -- it's probably not too difficult to port, and you'll probably get quite a few grateful Linux users.

consider the Linux crowd has the "free (as in beer) software mentality"....

Can we get past this already? It seems the only Linux folk who have that mentality are complete strawmen created by people who've never actually met a Linux user.

I actually bought Windows XP, despite Linux being my primary OS. Most Windows users I know will pirate it if it didn't come with the machine.

There is one exception to that rule: On Windows, there are tons of little freeware (but closed source) utilities like IrfanView, WinRAR, etc. On Windows, and to a larger extent, OS X, there's even more -- a massive culture of shareware, where tiny cataloging utilities and file management utilities are selling for $10 to $20 each.

So, if your app is something truly useful, sure. I would love to see things like Photoshop support Wine officially (I'll use Gimp when I can, but it still hasn't caught up), and I love that WoW releases Wine-specific patches, and Eve uses Winelib.

But if you're trying to sell me a $15 version of diff or merge, it had better iron my socks, too.

Re:Question (1, Insightful)

Neoprofin (871029) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705197)

consider the Linux crowd has the "free (as in beer) software mentality"....

Can we get past this already? It seems the only Linux folk who have that mentality are complete strawmen created by people who've never actually met a Linux user.

Or anyone who's spent more than ten minutes in any thread on this site involving Windows, Linux, Macs, the FSF, any FOSS announcement, and probably a hand full of other things.

You can't come here every day, or multiple times a day like people seem to do, and not notice that there are plenty of Linux users who are very eager to post about how all of their software is both free as in s speech AND free as in beer.

That said, I think most people are used to "free as in beer" by this point because Linux is free by choice and the high prices of a lot of proprietary programs has led to such massive rates of piracy that things like Windows, Office, and Photoshop may as well be free as far as anyone not professionally involved is concerned. Games don't exactly fit this model though, as developers actually care if their games get pirated much of the time, it's not an arena where gaining market share is worth the lost revenue because that marketshare doesn't continue forth the same way.

I digress though, my point was that that the idea of the fanatical free linux guy is far from a strawman, I'd just be interested to see how many there are compared to Windows and Mac users who just pirate everything but don't talk about it.

Re:Question (0, Troll)

Jamie's Nightmare (1410247) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705375)

Developers who find actual numbers, instead of pulling them out of their ass.

It's actually your head that needs to be pulled out of your own ass. That's a harsh way of saying that you don't really have an accurate picture yourself. Why? Because those like yourself who are embedded in the subculture that is Linux do not have an accurate picture of the entire computer ecosystem.

Take Slashdot for instance, where anyone can say anything "Pro-Linux" or "Anti-Windows", truthful or not, and it will be given high praise and kudos. People such as yourself feed off this garbage and form a grossly distorted picture of just how many other people out there think the same way you do.

Re:Question (1)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705485)

That's a harsh way of saying that you don't really have an accurate picture yourself.

That's true enough. But I never claimed to.

Again, this is the kind of thing for which you would need to do real, actual market research in order to find out for yourself. If you're writing a tool for graphic artists, you probably don't have to care about Linux at all. If you're writing a tool for animators and modelers, it's worth considering. If you're writing a tool designed to run on a cluster of servers built from commodity hardware, you'd be stupid not to support Linux.

Because those like yourself who are embedded in the subculture that is Linux do not have an accurate picture of the entire computer ecosystem.

Nor does anyone who blindly throws a number out there, like "0.1%".

Linux is a tiny minority on the desktop, and I have no illusions about that. Can you find where that invalidates anything in my post?

Imagine the day programs like (3, Funny)

rolfwind (528248) | more than 5 years ago | (#26704743)

Turbotax, quicken, photoshop, quickbooks claim it on their boxes?

Chair manufacturers wouldn't be able to keep up with demand!

Apps available are also available natively... (3, Insightful)

mvdw (613057) | more than 5 years ago | (#26704747)

Most if not all of the apps already mentioned have native Free equivalents that are as good, if not better. Specifically, the majority seem to be DVD or MP3 programs, which are already heavily targeted. Although, more officially-supported WINE apps is certainly good for regression testing the codebase.

Re:Apps available are also available natively... (1)

evanbd (210358) | more than 5 years ago | (#26704887)

Not listed (yet, I'm about to add it) is the PokerStars client. It's a bit buried, but they do list it as supported in the faq and they offer support for it. That's the closest you'll get to a real-money poker option for Linux.

Re:Apps available are also available natively... (1)

Tatsh (893946) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705193)

I played that all last month and it works fine 100%. Real money, but I lost it all hehe

Re:Apps available are also available natively... (1)

Tatsh (893946) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705217)

The problem is developers who write Windows-only code then. There are a decent number of games that are open source that are written using Windows APIs only. Sure, maybe developers like the Windows API but why target one OS? The other thing is .NET. Wine still barely works with it and Microsoft loves that developers find C# easy to use and that most developers using C# are developing Windows-only .NET apps. Yes, there is Mono but it is nowhere near compatible. Purposely kept behind, plus if there's a .NET app front-end to a Windows CLI app, that will not work because .NET has no Win32 API.

I would like to see Mono and Wine developers work together. Of course, Micro$oft does not. On the other hand, what's stopping DotGNU from becoming better than Mono and working with the Wine project?

Then of course, newcomers to developing should understand that they can provide to a larger user base if they build cross-platform apps (and if necessary use cross-platform libs). We would all like newcomers to developing to start on Linux (this is essentially how my university does it), but this is right now not necessarily a reality.

Who wants to start the 'Learn on Linux First' campaign?

Re:Apps available are also available natively... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26705427)

Yes, and honestly, apps are the smaller/non issue. The big issue is the list of *games* that support Wine. It is, from a corporate perspective, a nice middle ground where:

1. You can claim wider compatibility.
2. Shift much or all of the hard work to the community, where compat problems are fixed in the Wine codebase rather than having you fix yours.
3. Maintain the proprietary value of your closed-source product.

With Vista/DX10 being the failure that it is, I imagine that there is some incentive to start exploring alternative platforms. Linux gaming, however, has so far produced equally unattractive results. If game pubs can continue making games on a Windows-only budget, and then get Linux availability for free, or for a fraction of the cost of a native port, that is win-win: pubs feel more confident about supporting Wine, Linux gets more cred as a gaming platform, and gradually pubs feel more confident about supporting Linux.

hey adobe... (0, Offtopic)

gandhi_2 (1108023) | more than 5 years ago | (#26704787)

...when are you going to drop the zero [microsoft.com] and get with the hero [ubuntu.com] ? yip yip [oftheday.com.au] .

The only thing that would be better than being able to run CS3 or even CS4 in wine? Running it natively in a *nix.

Re:hey adobe... (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26704917)

They'll be serving snow cones in hell before Adobe releases Photoshop for Linux. Adobe wants $$$$$ for its products. Linux users, by and large, want their OS and apps for free. The two concepts don't mesh well, and the suits at Adobe know that.

Re:hey adobe... (1, Insightful)

RedK (112790) | more than 5 years ago | (#26704925)

You can already run Photoshop CS4 on Unix, and I mean the real deal (http://www.apple.com/macosx/technology/unix.html [apple.com] ), not imitation Linux Unix.

Re:hey adobe... (1)

theheadlessrabbit (1022587) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705209)

if this is the case, wouldn't it be easier to make an OSX emulator and run mac photoshop under linux?

is there a MAC-WINE out there?

Re:hey adobe... (1)

RedK (112790) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705225)

For anything written using Cocoa, there is GNUStep.

Re:hey adobe... (1)

Achromatic1978 (916097) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705319)

Assuming, of course, you're content to run a 32 bit memory hungry application on a 64 bit operating system, only using possibly a fraction of your RAM. Yay!

I'll stick with Windows, where Photoshop recognizes and uses the 16GB of RAM on my desktop.

Re:hey adobe... (1)

powerspike (729889) | more than 5 years ago | (#26704985)

Until the cost of producing the software, is dwarfed by the income from it, it's not going to be very likely, you might fine if they did do it, they'd have to staticly compile the whole thing, and it'd make the windows and mac versions look "lite" compared to it.

Wine troubles me... (2, Interesting)

bogaboga (793279) | more than 5 years ago | (#26704795)

...because it's always a work in progress. We in the Linux world appear to always be "chasing" a prize that can never be caught.

I applaud the programmers in this effort though.

Re:Wine troubles me... (3, Insightful)

_Sprocket_ (42527) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705001)

As someone playing WoW on my Linux box, I say "chase on!"

Re:Wine troubles me... (1)

Jamie's Nightmare (1410247) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705433)

Hell yeah! Join me in a game of Day of Defeat: Source [winehq.org] . It should be pretty easy for me to chase you, since you'll be getting about only about 17 FPS.

Re:Wine troubles me... (2, Insightful)

bondsbw (888959) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705013)

Agreed. They've done a fantastic job, but their job will never be over.

I personally think that reversing that effort would be best. If companies were able to develop solid apps for Linux, and be assured that they would work flawlessly and efficiently in Windows, that would be a better way to kill two birds with one stone.

A major project going this direction is andLinux [andlinux.org] , which is basically the opposite of Wine. It uses the coLinux kernel, a port of the Linux kernel for Windows, to allow Linux programs to run natively in Windows.

Re:Wine troubles me... (1)

Tatsh (893946) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705339)

I disagree. Why rely upon the buggy Windows kernel to keep things afloat? We do not know exactly how it works, why it does it what it does, etc etc. It is not trustworthy. Linux is because we can see the source code and we compile. We can see the source code of GCC which compiles it. We can see the source code of the GCC that compiles GCC, ad infinitum until we get down to the ASM code that starts up our PCs in the first place.

If developers build for andLinux, that is all it will really support. It is generally impossible to say that a binary built on Fedora will work on Ubuntu. It is likely a simple Hello, world app will run fine but not something that has a vast amount of dependencies with specific versions.

Re:Wine troubles me... (1)

Jamie's Nightmare (1410247) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705509)

Oh! Please continue. Tell us in what way you find the NT kernel to be buggy. Naturally you can't be expected to expose all the problems with NT because you haven't seen the source code yourself, unless you've requested to do so from Microsoft for academic purposes. Still, we need more guys like you that are willing to stand up and be heard.

Only if you have some free time though. I understand you spend a lot of time looking through the source code for each new Linux kernel release and software program you install on your machine. I imagine that must take some time out of your day. It's a lot of work, but this is your safely we're talking about. Can't trust those evil Microsoft employees.

Re:Wine troubles me... (1)

onefriedrice (1171917) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705035)

In the world of computers, anything that isn't a work in progress is already obsolete.

Re:Windows troubles me... (0, Troll)

Techman83 (949264) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705091)

...because it's always a work in progress. We in the Microsft world appear to always be "chasing" a prize that can never be caught.

Fixed that for you...

Re:Windows troubles me... (1)

ianare (1132971) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705373)

Whomever modded you troll obviously never tried getting win98 apps to work on XP, or an XP app on Vista ...

Re:Windows troubles me... (1)

Techman83 (949264) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705399)

Troll!! It was supposed to be funny! Oh well first Troll modding FTW!

Re:Wine troubles me... (1)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705143)

It's like the rest of the OS -- it works for some things, not for others.

However, occasionally, what you need and what Wine/Linux provides sync up perfectly. Then, there are a lot of good reasons to switch -- free-as-in-beer being the obvious one.

As an example: I have tried plenty of programs in Wine, and watched them fail horribly. Others, I simply don't want to sacrifice a dozen FPS and some visual quality to play Portal on Linux, when I can just keep an XP partition around.

But every now and then, you end up with something like Filemaker or Quicken working just perfectly -- and if the only remaining app a user depends on is in that list, they can pretty much stop booting Windows.

Even if Wine never "catches up", every user who can use Wine instead of Windows is a win. And those users who do make the switch aren't likely to switch back because of a new app that isn't supported -- they're more likely to try to get it supported, or seek out another app.

So, even in a perfect world, where Linux achieves at least some 20 or 30% marketshare, to where people can no longer ignore it (and possibly starting a tidal wave of Windows users jumping ship), Wine probably wouldn't be perfect. But it would be enough to drive demand, and change the game.

Re:Wine troubles me... (1)

Tatsh (893946) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705311)

I also applaud the effort in creating Wine. It has enabled great efficiency within Linux as you no longer have to boot into Windows or virtualise to run many apps.

Regardless, I do not mind listing my project as 'supporting' Wine, but my project is open source and builds natively on Linux. Obviously I am going to want the native version.

Shared libraries seem to be the biggest problem with trying to distribute binary-only apps for Linux. A lot of apps try to solve by using static binaries or building the binary so it only uses so files in a certain directory, including its own, much the same way a Windows app will first look for a DLL in its current directory first before going to system32 and other 'standard' directories. Currently on Gentoo if I grab Opera (64-bit), it has a problem with a symbol in a shared library and then crashes. No real way to solve this except to go back a version or two in the library that the so file belongs to. Of course I would not want to do that if everything else works fine.

We cannot convince the commercial software developers to release their source so we can all compile or make distribution packages yet. Someday though I hope.

I would love to experiment this: make a high-budget game that is sure to get high-ratings and release it with the source code so that Linux users can use it. The catch: the licence would NOT be the GPL or LGPL, thus making it possible for me to sue anyone who modifies the source code and distributes or even pirates in the first place. How different is this from the current state of warez? Right now, a game gets released, someone who knows ASM really well cracks the protection away, and then the game is released onto the internet and masses download the game for free (many of whom were never going to buy the game whether they have the money or not). I think the game will sell regardless, pirates will get the game because they want it, and modders will have a great time. Maybe I could make a good licence for modders?

Neat! (1)

NineNine (235196) | more than 5 years ago | (#26704865)

Neat! 16 apps! One I've heard of, and there are tons of replacements for it on every platform (utorrent). Looks like a fun project, though!

Re:Neat! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26704943)

I've never heard of these apps, but here is the list:

Wine Support Honor Roll

The following applications list Wine as a supported platform:

Application
AppDB Entry
Alchemy Mindworks Software
Vendor entry:931
AudioMulch Interactive Music Studio
clrmamepro
DVDFab
GenoPro
JWPce
Lotus Europa Knowledgebase
Missing

LTSpice
MediaCoder
mp3DirectCut
Neat Image
Neat Video
Missing
Perfect Dark
6674
Reaper
StarMoney
utorrent

AppsThatSupportWine (last edited 2009-02-03 00:32:36 by DavidGerard)

Wine is important (1)

moniker127 (1290002) | more than 5 years ago | (#26704913)

I know you Richard Stallman fans dont approve- but if wine were all encompassing- if it could run more or less anything that windows could- and if it were built into a distro- linux's market share would SKYROCKET. Not being able to run some windows apps is the reason 90% of windows users out there dont use linux.
If this were the case- it would allow a transition period for application developers to gradually switch over to coding for linux nativly, and eventually windows could be the one you'd need an emulator for.

Re:Wine is important (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26705043)

Right, didn't IBM have a DOS compatibility layer or something of the sort in OS/2? Wasn't Win95 able to run on top of DrDOS? I don't see any switching to those ...

No Need for Wine (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26704953)

When one uses free software exclusively they will have no need for Wine. Wine is for those who are addicted to non-free software. All free software is available with any GNU/Linux distribution.

--
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk
Friends do assist M$ addicted friends in committing suicide.

Re:No Need for Wine (3, Insightful)

onefriedrice (1171917) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705101)

My computer is a tool. Software is my job, not my religion. If I can increase my productivity or otherwise enjoy life better by using a win32 binary in wine rather than a Free version which may or may not be available, I'll use wine without even feeling guilty. Ahh, true freedom.

Re:No Need for Wine (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26705469)

Until you notice your win32 binary has come with its little friends adware and spyware.
Or let say there is a bug that won't get fixed but you would still like to get rid of it.

And if you are lucky, your win32 binary will not stop working because it has detected a cd/dvd writer or noticed it's not a real windows environment.

So I guess true freedom is about having the right to look for troubles.

Re:No Need for Wine (1)

bug1 (96678) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705115)

Wine is for those who are addicted to non-free software.

Some people manage to give up their addiction by going cold turkey, others need to ween themselves off it, different methods work for different people.

If people need to ween themselves from their non-free software addiction then their is a need for wine, dont you agree ?

Re:No Need for Wine (1)

dbIII (701233) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705391)

Then you get the inhouse app that everyone has to have which requires MS Access or whatever VB is these days (broken java?). Instead of an expensive mass migration back to MS Windows due to somebody not having the skill or foresight to put a web front end on their oversized macro you can probably get it going under wine.

The heart of the matter (1)

Narpak (961733) | more than 5 years ago | (#26704957)

I reckon the core of this is more and more realizing the future is diverse when it comes to operating systems. Already some run Microsoft systems, while others run Linux distros or other systems. Coming out with Wine as a supported platform can mean that when a company or person decides to switch to a Linux based system that person know that they can chose one of their familiar alternatives and that it will run under Wine. This not only helps make it easier for certain people to make the switch to a Liunx system it also gives the companies that declares Wine a supported platform with an "early" in; into what promises to be a bigger marked than most of the old guard within Open Source might accept or realize.

While there might be free alternatives certain companies and organization isn't looking for free. They are looking for function and more importantly; support.

WTF with the summary. (4, Insightful)

rrkap (634128) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705031)

Wine is a cool project. It's even useful, but it isn't nearly as compatible with Windows or DOS aps than Vista. That's just stupid. This is yet another story that leads me to suspect that kdawson is an idiot.

Re:WTF with the summary. (1)

sameb112 (1461573) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705183)

That's not very nice. Can't take a joke? Ok, maybe not a very GOOD joke... but what is a joke on Slashdot?

Wine for Windows (2, Insightful)

sonamchauhan (587356) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705057)

> runs Windows applications more often than not. (Certainly more often than Vista does.)

Maybe this occasions releasing Wine on Windows itself ;)

Re:Wine for Windows (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26705363)

Has anyone tried compiling and running Wine on cygwin on windows?

Performance would probably be rubbish though, with a windows-on-unix compatibility layer on top of a unix-on-windows compatibility layer.

Re:Wine for Windows (2, Informative)

hcmtnbiker (925661) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705417)

Um, WINEHQ has for a long time had a "Windows port". It's used mostly for testing since substituting the real system files is easier in the actual environment; and some other debugging is easier too. Since the new site layout however I've yet to find the correct link for it, otherwise I would post it.

Re:Wine for Windows (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26705475)

look at winehq, there actually is a version of WINE on Windows

offtopic but... (1)

Penguin Follower (576525) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705061)

I really really dig their web design. :) Been a while since I visited the site, so the current design is new to me.

You Don't Support Wine... It Supports You (1)

Kenyai (1422451) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705117)

An operating system emulator is supposed to support apps, not vice-versa.

The list should be titled, "Apps That Wine Officially Supports." And it doesn't look good to have that list be so small.

Re:You Don't Support Wine... It Supports You (1)

SBFCOblivion (1041418) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705301)

An operating system emulator is supposed to support apps, not vice-versa.

The list should be titled, "Apps That Wine Officially Supports." And it doesn't look good to have that list be so small.

Well, firstly Wine Is Not an Emulator.

Secondly, wtf are you talking about? The list just started this month, of course it's going to be small. The idea is that it will grow.

Thirdly, the list is composed of applications that specifically state they are compatible with Wine. Not sure why you're insisting it should be titled "Apps That Wine Officially Supports".

Re:You Don't Support Wine... It Supports You (1)

FlyingBishop (1293238) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705471)

The list should be titled, "Apps That Wine Officially Supports." And it doesn't look good to have that list be so small.

No. That is a list of apps that officially support Wine.

The list you're looking for is located at http://appdb.winehq.org/ [winehq.org]

Furthermore, Wine is not an emulator. It implements Windows-specific API's so that that program can be run under Linux - x86 Linux. If the programmers are writing good code, it should run unmodified on Wine. Writing a program that implements an established API is not that hard. The problem is, software never works as intended, and programmers invariably make use of undefined behavior in the Windows API. The challenge of Wine is emulating this behavior. However, it is not a Windows emulator. It translates Windows API calls into Linux API calls.

That's nice (1)

NonUniqueNickname (1459477) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705129)

Just as long as it doesn't distract the wine devs from what's really important to the linux community: Making sure World of Warcraft runs smoothly. Keep up the good work.

Why not... I'll pull up the asbestos underoos... (1)

thesandbender (911391) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705315)

This is not a knock on Wine or Wine developers. Hear me out.

Applications develop to a platform. While Wine is technically a platform... it's raison d'être is to emulate the Windows platform. So... asking Windows developers to support it is essentially double-think. You're writing to the emulation platform and not the platform it's supposed to be emulating.

For arguments sake lets say the Redhat or the Debian group came out and said they were going to recognize applications that ran on the Linux 2.4 or 2.2 kernel. The immediate question would be... why? Why are we writing to this standard instead of the current 2.6 standard?

Like I said... this is not a knock on Wine. More and more apps are running on it everyday... which means they're meeting their goal of emulation. Rewarding programs just b/c they don't exercise the full windows API is a step backwards.... for everyone. Recognize the companies that step in and fill the gap so their programs do work. Recognize progress not stagnation.

Re:Why not... I'll pull up the asbestos underoos.. (1)

dacut (243842) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705415)

I agree. I think it would be more beneficial to get these apps either ported fully to Linux (using the native toolkits or WineLib; take your pick), or have them work with the Wine developers to document flaws in their library implementations and help patch it up.

Having dabbled on Wine a looong time ago (I think my last contributions were in 96 or 97?), let me say that this is a very difficult problem to solve. It's easy to get the first 80% done, but the last 20% can be maddening. Trying to bridge between two different rendering models isn't easy, either -- things as simple as drawing a line can have surprising differences in Win32 vs. X (like whether that last pixel is drawn or not!).

W.I.N.E (1)

DrugCheese (266151) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705325)

Wine stands for "Wine Is Not an Emulator"

Re:W.I.N.E (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26705411)

Wine stands for "Wine Is Not an Emulator"

Then shouldn't it be W.I.N.E.I.N.E

Add another - geophysical software (2, Informative)

dbIII (701233) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705369)

There's the SeiSee program with is a viewer for segy files and is specificly tested with wine:

http://www.dmng.ru/seisview/seisee.en.html [www.dmng.ru]

I think you'll find a lot of other scientific software is also designed to be cross platform in that way.

There is also some commerical software which is cross platform from dotnet to mono and has official linux support - but I can't give you an example which is paticularly stable on either platform. I really don't know if the blame can be laid on dotnet or the developers using it - and mono is playing catchup which adds in a few more quirks (libexif as a dependancy to run purely text based stuff?).

Slow but steady (4, Interesting)

Eil (82413) | more than 5 years ago | (#26705447)

I was at the credit union today waiting literally hours for a banker-type person to do their job. On the table, a CU industry magazine. I picked it up and started flipping through it. (Interesting how every article followed the same exact business-like structure and format, no matter what the topic.) One of the ads was for some kind of "check transport" device. The thing that zips your check through a U-turn and puts a timestamp or something on it, I think. At the bottom of the ad in big bold letters was the statement:

Compatible with all versions of Windows and Linux with WINE.

I was floored. I got that same feeling as the first few times I started seeing World Wide Web URLs pop up on billboards and on TV commercials. Or when random people would find out I was a computer nerd and ask if I knew that Linux program (pronounced with a long 'I').

Put simply, these things teach me that just as there was not really a definitive "year of the Internet," there won't be a "year of Linux" either.Linux's growth has and always will be slow but steady. The nature of software and the I.T. marketplace will demand that more and more software be portable, available, and just generally flexible. That software which isn't will be replaced by that which is. These are a few of the cornerstones of open source after all, and the proprietary vendors would do themselves a favor to realize this for themselves.

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