Beta

Slashdot: News for Nerds

×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

ACTA Could Make Nonprofit P2Ps Face Criminal Penalties

Soulskill posted more than 5 years ago | from the just-as-bad-as-stealing-fractions-of-pennies dept.

Government 149

dan of the north writes "Based on sources and leaked documents, Knowledge Ecology International now asserts that ACTA drafts are in fact 'formally available to cleared corporate lobbyists and informally distributed to corporate lawyers and lobbyists in Europe, Japan, and the US.' — The ACTA proposals currently include language that would make copyright infringement on a 'commercial scale,' even when done with 'no direct or indirect motivation of financial gain,' into a criminal matter. Both KEI and Canadian law professor Michael Geist, who has been working his own sources, say that the current proposals require all signatories to 'establish a laundry list of penalties — including imprisonment — sufficient to deter future acts of infringement.'"

cancel ×

149 comments

With such a clear definition of the scale required (5, Insightful)

AvitarX (172628) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763315)

There is no way this could be misapplied.

Re:With such a clear definition of the scale requi (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26763513)

It isn't that bad. We have similar law here in Finland. That part has only ever been applied once: When Finland's largest bit torrent tracker was busted a few years ago. The people who ran it got charged with criminal charges.

In all lesser cases the courts have been sure that individuals downloading music for some personal use and sharing some files hasn't been enough to cause commercial level profit loss for massive record companies. I have heard (from Teosto's - our RIAA - lawyers though that it could be applicable in other special cases. Such as sharing movie before it came to theaters, etc.)

That said, we haven't had those "These 7 songs meant 2 000 000 dollars of profit loss for our company" type of lawyers.

Re:With such a clear definition of the scale requi (2, Funny)

weber (36246) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763533)

If it's not that bad how come you post anonymously?

Re:With such a clear definition of the scale requi (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26763619)

If you're not a criminal why are you posting under the alias of 'weber'?

Here;s a novel idea: don't fucking INFRINGE (C)!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26764287)

Is it really so hard? Are you a paedo that just can't stop? Here's an idea - DON'T DO IT! And that includes GPL infringment, too, to keep the locals happy. You can't have it both ways, children.

Re:Here;s a novel idea: don't fucking INFRINGE (C) (1)

TheVelvetFlamebait (986083) | more than 5 years ago | (#26764387)

Apparently their inability to stop is entirely the *AA's fault for being such pricks.

Either that or it's not a problem, and they can quit any time.

Re:Here;s a novel idea: don't fucking INFRINGE (C) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26764631)

"without copyright the gpl would be unenforceable. it would also be unnecessary".

I'd be fine with binary-only competing with source-available on a level playing field, a free market without copyright or patent monopoly grants. - i.e. if neither's redistribution could be restricted. Guess what? People with a clue would always prefer source-available, and the natural collaborative advantages of source-available would mean it would rapidly outpace the binary-only weenies in most fields.

So while copyright exists, I support the GPL - it only restricts people who observe copyright law anyway.

Re:Here;s a novel idea: don't fucking INFRINGE (C) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26764821)

So while I am a weenie

This is not disputed. Carry on.

Re:Here;s a novel idea: don't fucking INFRINGE (C) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26765165)

aww diddums, did an anonymous coward get upset their point was refuted?

Re:Here;s a novel idea: don't fucking INFRINGE (C) (1)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 5 years ago | (#26766399)

Is it really so hard? Are you a paedo that just can't stop? Here's an idea - DON'T DO IT! And that includes GPL infringment, too, to keep the locals happy. You can't have it both ways, children.

Larger issues here, dude.

Re:With such a clear definition of the scale requi (2, Informative)

Jurily (900488) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763851)

It isn't that bad. We have similar law here in Finland. That part has only ever been applied once: When Finland's largest bit torrent tracker was busted a few years ago. The people who ran it got charged with criminal charges.

That doesn't mean it's a good law. At most it indicates a sane legal system.

Which is proven not to be the case in the US.

Re:With such a clear definition of the scale requi (1)

deathy_epl+ccs (896747) | more than 5 years ago | (#26765467)

You operate under the assumption that the international courts are as likely to react in a sane manner... My gut says that the content industries will just start filing in the international equivalent of the east Texas court where they file them in the U.S.

Re:With such a clear definition of the scale requi (1)

AceofSpades19 (1107875) | more than 5 years ago | (#26765469)

I really don't understand how a torrent site can be taken down because of copy right infrigement, all they do is host .torrent files and track them, they don't actually have copyright infringing material on the site itself

Re:With such a clear definition of the scale requi (1)

s73v3r (963317) | more than 5 years ago | (#26766123)

The argument is that they are showing you where the infringing material is. That they are aiding and abetting copyright infringers, and they are becoming distributors of the content themselves, which is against copyright law in most countries. Not saying I agree with it, just presenting their argument as I see it.

Re:With such a clear definition of the scale requi (1)

AceofSpades19 (1107875) | more than 5 years ago | (#26766205)

But then shouldn't google, yahoo and live search be shut down too, because you can use them to find copyright infringing material?

Re:With such a clear definition of the scale requi (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26763541)

You'll find the best selection of hot babes, sexy singles, and beautiful dating right at the exclusive interracial dating community,
_______INTERRACIALLOVING.COM______.
Come in and stay a while. Post a message, a pic of yourself and check out the hot photo galleries. You are guaranteed to find someone you like here.

Re:With such a clear definition of the scale requi (1)

jeti (105266) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763553)

We already had several lawyers arguing that sharing one music album or one DVD counts as distribution on a commercial scale.

Re:With such a clear definition of the scale requi (1)

shmlco (594907) | more than 5 years ago | (#26766827)

Well.... personally I'd tend to agree that "sharing" one album or DVD with 10,000 or so people equals distribution on a "commercial" scale...

Re:With such a clear definition of the scale requi (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26763755)

What does the Association of Canadian Travel Agencies [www.acta.ca] have to do with this? I wish folks submitting stories wouldn't be so fucking lazy and print out the words in full that the acronym refers to at least once before using the acronym. Why do people always assume that everyone should know what all these short forms refer to? Give those of us who aren't into memorizing acronyms a break so we don't have to google every submission to figure out what they are talking about.

Re:With such a clear definition of the scale requi (1)

easyTree (1042254) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763779)

Or how about acronym namespaces ?

Re:With such a clear definition of the scale requi (1)

LordSnooty (853791) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763861)

Mod up. In fact the word 'Canada' is only mentioned in relation to the law professor, so I had to read (skim) the paragraph several times before I knew which country this story was about. Another bad, bad summary.

Europe, Japan, and the US......and so? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26763357)

Notice how Russia and China are conspicuously absent from that list of countries....

Re:Europe, Japan, and the US......and so? (2, Interesting)

Mystra_x64 (1108487) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763389)

It's just our laws are optional anyway ~

Re:Europe, Japan, and the US......and so? (2, Insightful)

BiggerIsBetter (682164) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763511)

Notice how Russia and China are conspicuously absent from that list of countries....

We all know who to proxy through now, don't we?

Re:Europe, Japan, and the US......and so? (1)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 5 years ago | (#26766413)

Notice how Russia and China are conspicuously absent from that list of countries....

We all know who to proxy through now, don't we?

No kidding. The way things are doing, it won't be long before a Russian Business Network server will be the safest place in the world to put your stuff.

"Criminal Matter" (4, Insightful)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763359)

The ultimate goal of all the "industries". This shifts the burden ( and cost ) to the government ( tax payers ) and even further stigmatizes a 'non societal' act.

It also introduces jail times, long term detention during proceedings and a life time of persecution after prison..

All they will have to do is randomly accuse people with and sit back and watch the show and collect money.

Re:"Criminal Matter" (5, Interesting)

aurispector (530273) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763435)

This the other shoe dropping now that the RIAA claims they have stopped filing suits.

The problem here is that citizens of signatory countries will have no recourse within the laws of their own countries since it's a treaty. This will get very ugly if the bastards get their way - and they probably will. This makes me physically ill.

Re:"Criminal Matter" (1)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763715)

While people call me nuts ( tho they said that when i talked about this entire mess decades ago and who is laughing now.. ) i still expect to see random seizures of music players on the street. "prove ownership of these songs".

Wish my ipod was encrypted.

Re:"Criminal Matter" (1)

that this is not und (1026860) | more than 5 years ago | (#26764103)

Wish my ipod was encrypted.

Don't worry about that. You bought a brand-new iPod, and not some 'inferior third party player,' right?

And you always use the current version of iTunes to sync, correct?

"We're happy to say you appear to be in compliance, citizen. Please move along."

Re:"Criminal Matter" (1)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 5 years ago | (#26764237)

Tho you are kidding, i have both Ipod and Sansa, and dont use the official sync for either.. I also dont use Amazons service to feed the Kindle, i scan my own paper books or use free documents.. ( and my laptop is already encrypted )

If it does come down to random searches, you can bet ill be using alternative firmware. Even if i'm 100% legit, its none of their damned business.

Scary times ahead folks.

Re:"Criminal Matter" (1)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 5 years ago | (#26766457)

There's a problem with your scenario. If they're every going to lock media down that tightly, they're going to have to be goddamned precise. They aren't very good at at that. The RIAA's approach of suing everyone regardless of that facts won't wash ... they could very, very easily make using commercial media too risky, and they're just paranoid enough (and greedy enough) to do just that. People might have to go back to entertaining themselves.

Re:"Criminal Matter" (2, Insightful)

davidbrucehughes (451901) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763747)

This is just another symptom supporting the diagnosis that the media business has become toxic waste. The best antidote is a broad movement to convince artists to release their work under the Creative Commons licenses. The big recording and media companies are exploitive rascals; drive them out of business by voting with your money and simply not doing business with them.

For example, on our site we have tons of original music, videos and text. Similar to many open-source software companies, we get paid when people buy training or counseling services related to the material.

The Information Economy does not work by legislation, but by taking advantage of the inherent nature of networks to copy stuff. *Please* copy our stuff! Put it on all the P2P hosts and download it all day and night. We love it!

Re:"Criminal Matter" (2, Interesting)

diewlasing (1126425) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763881)

Actually in the US, if I'm not mistaken, even treaties are considered part of federal law. Many times the people negotiating the treaty will provide a caveat saying they won't sign if it violates the Constitution. Also I believe, just like federal laws, they can be ruled unconstitutional. In any case, Obama is appointing a new US Trade Rep. Whether or not things will change is something only time will tell.

Re:"Criminal Matter" (1)

modmans2ndcoming (929661) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763975)

While I hold out a lot of hope for the change that Obama can bring, some of his appointments (like our pro-globilization trade secretary)worry me.

Re:"Criminal Matter" (2, Funny)

that this is not und (1026860) | more than 5 years ago | (#26764131)

Oh, please. In spite of the right wing screeching about Obama being a far-left stealth candidate, he's a cleaner, more efficient Bill Clinton, without the personal ethical lapses to interfere with his objectives. He's headed down DLC lane.

Re:"Criminal Matter" (1)

Stanislav_J (947290) | more than 5 years ago | (#26764879)

In spite of the right wing screeching about Obama being a far-left stealth candidate, he's a cleaner, more efficient Bill Clinton, without the personal ethical lapses to interfere with his objectives.....

Um...none that we know of...yet. You never know. Obama seems like a pretty upstanding guy, but so did Clinton at first. Anyway, to me, Bubba getting blow jobs from interns is his own business -- as far as I am concerned, if it put a smile on his face and enabled him to face the country's business in a more relaxed and less stressed frame of mind, all the better. It was the way he tried to fudge, obfuscate, and lie his way out of it that diminished his stature in my eyes. A flawed man, but we had a pretty good 8 years under him -- a fantastically great 8 years compared to the last 8.

Re:"Criminal Matter" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26766621)

Getting a blowjob is one thing. Conspiracy to commit murder is something entirely different. Do you seriously think he had nothing to do with this [foxnews.com] ?

Re:"Criminal Matter" (1)

Truekaiser (724672) | more than 5 years ago | (#26764889)

Have you forgotten that he and the vice president has staffed the justice department with riaa/mpaa goons?
Not only will this pass and become law here even if it violates the constitution, but there will be a roundup of file sharers afterwards.

Re:"Criminal Matter" (1)

Hordeking (1237940) | more than 5 years ago | (#26766409)

In spite of the right wing screeching about Obama being a far-left stealth candidate, he's a cleaner, more efficient Bill Clinton, without the personal ethical lapses to interfere with his objectives.....

Um...none that we know of...yet. You never know. Obama seems like a pretty upstanding guy, but so did Clinton at first. Anyway, to me, Bubba getting blow jobs from interns is his own business -- as far as I am concerned, if it put a smile on his face and enabled him to face the country's business in a more relaxed and less stressed frame of mind, all the better. It was the way he tried to fudge, obfuscate, and lie his way out of it that diminished his stature in my eyes. A flawed man, but we had a pretty good 8 years under him -- a fantastically great 8 years compared to the last 8.

Have you forgotten that he and the vice president has staffed the justice department with riaa/mpaa goons? Not only will this pass and become law here even if it violates the constitution, but there will be a roundup of file sharers afterwards.

Obama is just better at hiding his improprieties. He's a silver-tongued devil, if I ever saw one. Biden has been one of the biggest copywrong hounds out there, for years. Just pray Berman or Hollings never get into executive office. Those two are already dangerous where they are.

Maybe some of the more well-spoken amongst our numbers should've gotten out there and started bringing this shit to the attention of the unwashed masses before the elections. You know, all of those technically savvy college kids who inexplicably LOVE Obama because they're told to.

I'm normally a pro-lifer, but I think abortion really should've been encouraged in the past 25 years or so. Noone to make conservatives abort, but the liberals seem fond of it, so they would just cut down their numbers.

Don't blame me. I wanted Ron Paul to win (unfortunately any vote cast for him would've been a wasted vote). Neither of the two (uniparty) frontrunning candidates would've gone for what was best for me.

Re:"Criminal Matter" (1)

Wildclaw (15718) | more than 5 years ago | (#26766851)

The US would have been far better off with a real leftist [wikipedia.org] in the presidential office. Instead you got the usual corrupt and/or incompetent centrist that has to pay back favors to the financial interests that bought him.

Well, I could be wrong, but the first few weeks hasn't been very promising in the regard of "change". Expect Obushma to become a far more common term in the months to come.

Re:"Criminal Matter" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26764643)

This will get very ugly if the bastards get their way - and they probably will.

I'm almost certain they will, now that Obama's filled the ranks in the DOJ and his administration with strong copyright and RIAA advocates.

And when were all in prison hollywood can die (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26765231)

And when were all in prison hollywood can die quickly and we can start over after our life in prison for that mp3 tune is over.

The canuck govt already tried and failed to get a copyright law that would have seen 7 year prison terms PER infringement ( yup no matter if it was a mp3 , a tv episode or movie )
AND it muddled public domain to include a provision that if the non copyrighted material was on a dvdr and you break that so called digital lock for a copy you get a 20000 fine
in fact all xvids and avis are dvdr copies and thus that simple 500$ download fine does not apply alone , the actual fine is 20500$
and thus when you cant pay its 10$ = 1 day in jail and that new govt wants all sentences to be consecutive aka
two mp3s = 41000$ fine or 4100 days in jail
ENJOY the new order

Re:"Criminal Matter" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26764971)

This is yet another example why lobbying should be made illegal and called what it is: Bribery.

These politicians that sell out their people to the highest bidding companies are the biggest criminal scumbags.

Violation (0, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26763367)

By reading this comment, you are not committing an infringement. However, if you are committing this comment to memory, you may be committing an infringement due to the possibility of reproducing this comment, and selling it for commercial gain.

So, if someone records a show off of TV, can it be assumed they're going to pirate it? Betamax decision no more? Fair use is out the window? Whatever happened to common sense? All your rights are belong to ACTA!

Re:Violation (2, Insightful)

Ihmhi (1206036) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763561)

Honestly nowadays I think we need more of the Thomas-Paine-Muskets-And-Cannons Common Sense.

Re:Violation (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26764355)

I can't help but think that Mr. Paine would, at least prior to January 20, have been considered some sort of terrorist, were he to have published "Common Sense" today.

Now, to be fair, since then, that's probably been downgraded to mere "criminal". Still, not the smartest thing to be voicing support for a dude who advocated the overthrow of the government of the United States, albeit of a different form than it is today.

That being said, I agree. (Posting anonymously for obvious reasons.)

Re:Violation (1)

Hordeking (1237940) | more than 5 years ago | (#26766481)

I can't help but think that Mr. Paine would, at least prior to January 20, have been considered some sort of terrorist, were he to have published "Common Sense" today.

Now, to be fair, since then, that's probably been downgraded to mere "criminal". Still, not the smartest thing to be voicing support for a dude who advocated the overthrow of the government of the United States, albeit of a different form than it is today.

That being said, I agree. (Posting anonymously for obvious reasons.)

No, I'm pretty sure he'd still be considered a terrorist. The Obama administration will not make anything better, and will probably make things worse.

FYI, he was considered a terrorist of sorts in his own time (a seditionist, actually) by the effective gov't, King George.

If Thomas Paine is "currently" wrong, then, baby, I don't wanna be right.

Re:Violation (1)

BiggerIsBetter (682164) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763621)

So, if someone records a show off of TV, can it be assumed they're going to pirate it? Betamax decision no more? Fair use is out the window? Whatever happened to common sense? All your rights are belong to ACTA!

I suspect that this is targeted at the aXXos of the world. 30,000 peers on a TV rip probably qualifies in their eyes as "commercial scale" but not for financial gain. Lending a disk to a mate to get a copy of same probably does not.

The irony of course is that commerce starts with a transaction of 1, and it's the exchange and intent that is important. If we say a file piece has value, and is exchanged for another with intent to gain from the transaction, then perhaps there is barter going on, but really, that's rubbish and not how most P2P works anyway. The other implication is that only big guys do commerce, and frankly, I find that both offensive and very telling.

Re:Violation (1)

meist3r (1061628) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763791)

I suspect that this is targeted at the aXXos of the world. 30,000 peers on a TV rip probably qualifies in their eyes as "commercial scale" but not for financial gain. Lending a disk to a mate to get a copy of same probably does not.

My question would be, why try to establish a multi-lateral global framework of fascist information distribution restrictions and not battling pirates with their own weapons? I'd pay for a movie as aXXo style 700MB rip. But only if I can watch a decent sample beforehand (not a shit trailer that gives me all the important moments). They don't try to evolve, what they do is to dig their trenches deeper and try to force everyone to pay for their lack of common sense and flexibility. Sure people trading free stuff is a huge problem but they're not even trying to combat that with improved offers. Screw all those region based single market corporate interest endeavors. They don't realize what their markets oughta be and don't even try to work there.

I can't accept this. There is no reasonable explanation to be such a blockhead and they blame their failure to adapt on their consumers by abusing policy. That's neither right nor justified. I feel ashamed that our politicians even cooperate with this corrupt sack of liars. But then again, what else is politics than a bunch of liars tickling each others balls.

Re:Violation (1)

Jorophose (1062218) | more than 5 years ago | (#26764223)

Personally, I don't buy movies or music. I really only buy games anymore.

If it's not on cable, if it's not on the airwaves, it's not fit for human consumption. Think about it. With the exception of some movies (I liked Boondock Saints, for example) the classics will likely air at some point or another. Same for music. I had a friend who would keep a radio hooked up to his soundcard and just record the songs he'd want, as ogg files to boot. When you think the big bad wolf is looking you down, it's an option.

Maybe I'm just a stingy bastard. I'm not paying $0.99 per song for music I'll listen to maybe twice a month (when you have a big playlist and actually listen to people at work, I realised how little I use my MP3 player).

I'd pirate games if only to stick it to companies that make shovelware and movie games. Fuck right off, bud. Let me play it a bit. If I like it, I'll definately buy it. That's what we need more of; the option to download levels from games straight to your PS3/360/Wii. Let me try the first twenty minutes. Generally from that point you can tell what the controls are like, if the game looks ok, and the story starts there (but the story can be looked up; it's the actual "how does it play" that matters the most).

But then again, there's services like Gamefly for that.

I'm not necessarily opposed to buying my media. I've bought movies, I've gotten some as gifts. I rip them, and occasionally friends lend me burnt discs and video files of questionable origins. But it's not like I want something, can afford it, and instead I download it. Music is a bit of a different story. I'm willing to buy a CD if it has good tracks (no filler BS) and for a good price (10$ is the maximum), but only from a singer/band I like.

I have no qualms about downloading crap for the sake of downloading crap. It's not like I would have bought it in the first place. ACTA is ridiculous. People are still buying movies, games, and music. If anything, the rate decreases with more anti-piracy measures, and increases with pro-freedom ones. I'm very tempted to start buying my tunes from Amazon and such just because it's bullshit-free.

DRM and lawsuits aren't going to stop anyone. All it takes is one person and one hard drive.

Re:Violation (1)

s73v3r (963317) | more than 5 years ago | (#26766235)

I have no qualms about downloading crap for the sake of downloading crap. It's not like I would have bought it in the first place.

I have never gotten a clear answer to this. If you wouldn't have bought it in the first place, why do you feel entitled to it? Why not just go without?

Re:Violation (1)

Jorophose (1062218) | more than 5 years ago | (#26766711)

Because everyone talks about it. :)

Really, if you want an answer, it's not going to be easy to find one. I download them because it's there when I need it. I have the tunes I liked when I heard them on the radio. But these aren't the songs I love, and if someone would have asked me to pay for every single one of my songs, you'd likely see a lot less.

Rather than listen to commercials on the radio, I'd rather just download the songs and listen to them. But like I said, if you told me I can't do that, and I have to pay for all of my tracks... well, hello radio.

It stacks up; I'm not interested in spending 100$ on an MP3 player and another 100$ for songs to put on it. (I'm sure you could think of 100 songs that are playing right now somewhere) But even then, I'm not really download-happy.

Again, not necessarily that I'm entitled to it... But it's for the same reason that you find replicas of famous paintings. You're not decreasing the value of the real thing. You'd just like to appreciate the real thing too.

Then again, a lot of music is hit or miss. I'm not hooked up to a large private tracker, so I don't quite get everything, and not at the best qualities. So that's where buying legit has saved my ass. For example, looking for Rachel Ferguson's "Joshua" just nets me 300KB EXE/ZIP files called "FERGY_HOT_SEX".

It works! (3, Informative)

mangu (126918) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763377)

Ah, nothing like learning from experience! Make everything a crime. Let's use some tried [wikipedia.org] and tested [wikipedia.org] methods.

Re:It works! (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26763499)

You need to realize that this is different. They're not making possession or use of music, films or movies a crime. In contrast to prohibition and the war on drugs, there is and will be a legal alternative, so raising the price of the illegal method of acquisition is exactly what they want and will have the desired effect. How many people are going to work or pay their way into clandestine file sharing clubs when they can get their fix legally at $1 a pop?

ACTA will have extremely undesirable side effects too, but that is of no concern to the people pushing it.

They still won't get $1 a pop (1)

Mathinker (909784) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763951)

So what will happen is that they'll sell one song at $1 to someone, and he'll share it, the manual way (but losslessly), with all of his friends (or as many as the legal system has indicated is "non-commmercial").

I wonder if we'll get to the point where putting up a semi-public list of all the content you own will be considered illegal.

Re:It works! (1)

DreamerFi (78710) | more than 5 years ago | (#26764905)

They're not making possession or use of music, films or movies a crime

Actually, they are.

Thanks to the vague definition of 'significant infringement', it'll allow random seizures of music players on the street. "Prove ownership of these songs, or spend years in jail".

Re:It works! (1)

Znork (31774) | more than 5 years ago | (#26765753)

so raising the price of the illegal method of acquisition is exactly what they want and will have the desired effect.

The price on IP products is set according to the principles on monopoly pricing, IE, revenue is maximized when the loss of customers who cannot buy outweighs the increased revenue of the ones who do buy. Which means that the tighter the control the more prices will rise, and profitability in any black market will rise as well.

You see that exact function in countries with high taxes on alcohol and tobacco.

How many people are going to work or pay their way into clandestine file sharing clubs

Some, probably as many as are engaged in illicit alcohol and tobacco smuggling. More than enough to subsidize new criminal networks.

However, the vast majority wont be paying for clandestine filesharing clubs, they'll simply move from open networks to friend-to-friend encrypted multiprotocol stealthed darknets. Clandestine cell networks. No 'filesharing club' needed, you just connect to your friends with encryption keys, who connect to their friends, who connects to their friends. Small world theory and all that. Then you simply send out queries, where each friend asks his friends on your behalf, who then ask their friends, etc and the transfers go back. You never see anyone but your friends, hence the networks become inpenetrable yet vast. You'll lose some efficiency, but the question of filesharing and untraceable unmonitorable communications will be settled once and for all.

Re:It works! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26766683)

The price on IP products is set according to the principles on monopoly pricing, IE, revenue is maximized when the loss of customers who cannot buy outweighs the increased revenue of the ones who do buy. Which means that the tighter the control the more prices will rise, and profitability in any black market will rise as well.

You assume that the maximum revenue is achieved with a higher price than today. I'd argue that the people who don't buy today don't increase the balance price because the products aren't even worth the current price to them. What you see in tobacco and alcohol markets is not analogous to this topic, because the high prices are not chosen for maximum profit but artificially inflated via taxes.

the vast majority wont be paying for clandestine filesharing clubs, they'll simply move from open networks to friend-to-friend encrypted multiprotocol stealthed darknets

...and risk criminal charges? They'll either go for legal "fair use" copying (yeah right), in which case they don't need encrypted stealthed darknets, or they'll know that they're on the wrong side of the law. I don't think they'll do it, especially since they'll need software which they'll only get from questionable sources (or a good deal of know how to build something from generic crypto software).

I understand the "bring it on" attitude. The technical workarounds are obvious and it is enraging to witness the collusion of media industry and politicians for the purpose of secretly plotting the criminalization of a pervasive behavior. Nevertheless, confronted with the choice of paying a small price for legal entertainment or risking imprisonment for organizing a friend-to-friend copyright infringement cell, most people will not keep the fervor up.

Status Quo is Minatained (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26763381)

so torrent sites all move to physical hosts outside where these (potential) laws have jurisdiction, and...wait for it....nothing will have changed.

If we prepare now, I'm sure we could make a smooth transition with zero downtime.

Re:Status Quo is Minatained (1)

Truekaiser (724672) | more than 5 years ago | (#26764967)

The trackers would be ok, they would just go after the people who download from it.

this would kill (4, Insightful)

ionix5891 (1228718) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763391)

the internet as we know it :(

Re:this would kill (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26763423)

I think that's what they want...

Re:this would kill (2, Insightful)

mail2345 (1201389) | more than 5 years ago | (#26765795)

Just like how similar groups in the past wanted radio, VCRs and cable tv dead.

Yeah, let's kill Debian! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26763417)

It's a HUGE threat to commercial Genuine US operating system makers...

Great thinking.

If they could stop the copying... (1, Interesting)

zotz (3951) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763475)

They may not like the result...

The stuff carrying the Free Licenses would get an extra edge...

Some thoughts on a "Copyright Offensive" - http://zotzbro.blogspot.com/2007/04/some-thoughts-on-copyright-offensive.html [blogspot.com]

drew

Re:If they could stop the copying... (1)

zotz (3951) | more than 5 years ago | (#26766519)

Offtopic?

Surely you jest!

The topic is about trying to deter copyright violations with criminal laws and harsh penalties and the comment is that if they do manage to deter copying by these means they may not like the results as it may make works that compete with theirs but offer the legal ability to copy more attractive in comparison.

I may be being a bit dense, but where is the offtopic here?

drew

Re:If they could stop the copying... (1)

tsm_sf (545316) | more than 5 years ago | (#26767127)

Don't try to make sense of anything to do with the moderation system here. It was mis/abused even before the horde of nerd-raging young republicans descended on this site, and it's hopelessly broken now.

Geeks unite! (in prison...) (3, Insightful)

jimbudncl (1263912) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763483)

I wonder if they've considered the consequences of jail time... throw a bunch of pissed off computer geeks in the slammer together (I know not everyone who shares copyrighted data is a geek, but just employ your suspension of disbelief for a nano second). Hell, throw in some geeks who haven't downloaded a single "illegal" thing in their life, just for good measure (no innocent people have ever been convicted of a crime, that's unfair to all those guilty people!). Now, simmer on medium heat for 3-5 years, good behavior.

I predict a huge swell in the number of computer criminals actually doing harm to society in the next, say... 10 years. Those geeks are going to get out of prison and wreak havoc. And all because someone couldn't adapter their business model. Hope those media companies and their lawyers have no fear of identity theft ;)

Re:Geeks unite! (in prison...) (1)

easyTree (1042254) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763807)

It's all good then, isn't it - because the same people run the prisions and profit from every crime punished by jailtime.

Re:Geeks unite! (in prison...) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26764991)

Just like the americans are afraid of letting the people in Guantamo bay loose. If they weren't anti-American before, they are now.

Does this mean Media Exec children not immune? (1)

erroneus (253617) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763525)

I seem to vaguely recall some media executive's child being identified as "a pirate" followed by "official apologies" and a case being dropped. I am sure someone else here can fill in those details.

But if this were to go through and actual CRIMINAL complaints filed, does this mean those same children of media executives could be charged criminally or can we expect the same unbalanced application of the law?

Re:Does this mean Media Exec children not immune? (1)

sexybomber (740588) | more than 5 years ago | (#26764689)

Sure, they'll be charged criminally, but when Daddy shows up at the courthouse and explains to the DA who they are, the DA will quietly drop the charges, issue an official apology, and cut them a check so they don't sue for false imprisonment.

Same end result.

So? (3, Interesting)

EdIII (1114411) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763547)

They are going after non-profit P2P's. You mean like Shareaza, Kaza, Limewire? Who cares? All that stuff is absolute malware riddled crap. Those networks are not worth anything anyways. While outlawing them is problematic for preserving freedom, it would ultimately protect people. I don't support protecting the stupid out of principle, but we won't miss those networks too terribly. At least I won't have to spend so much effort blocking their installations anymore.

I don't think that this applies to the bittorrent protocol and any of those clients either as that is decentralized. The easy solution is for the client to remove all search abilities. Problem solved. Trackers are another issue, but it's not like any country has had great success shutting down tracker sites and blocking access to them.

In any case, this is moronic. The DMCA prevented companies from manufacturing and selling mod chips in the U.S. The result? Canada gets all the business and it never slowed its pace for a second. You would think that mod chips and pre-modded systems get stopped at the border. Nope.

There will be at least ONE country connected to the Internet that is not a signatory of ACTA. Guess where the repositories and websites will be located? Anyone? Anyone?

Re:So? (2, Insightful)

plasmacutter (901737) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763563)

Try bit torrent, FTP developers, web hosts..

wherever p2p goes, it will follow, eventually resulting in the evisceration of the entire internet, as it is, fundamentally, p2p in nature.

Re:So? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26765573)

FTP developers

FTP Developers? like ipswitch?
Also, FTP is client/server, peer to peer means more than just filesharing networks goddamnit.

Re:So? (1)

plasmacutter (901737) | more than 5 years ago | (#26765977)

FTP developers

FTP Developers? like ipswitch?
Also, FTP is client/server, peer to peer means more than just filesharing networks goddamnit.

FTP is client/server in the same way any other p2p is client/server.

Anyone can set up an FTP on their personal computer (with a dyndns if they want a dependable domain)

Re:So? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26763733)

I'd like to correct a few things.

1) Shareaza does not have malware. You can download the source and look yourself.
2) Kazaa and Limewire are for profit.
3) I'm pretty sure Limewire does not have malware for the same reason as point 1.

This extends far beyond what you're thinking of as P2P. They've given up trying to prosecute the misuse of software by users and are instead targeting the people who write the software that enables such illegal use. They're trying to make it illegal for anyone to write software that can be used to transmit copyrighted bits and bytes without permission from the copyright owner of those bits and bytes. That extends to such programs as web servers like Apache or IIS. And also instant messaging programs that allow files to be transferred between users. Essentially every software developer who writes software that allows files to be transferred should be concerned.

Re:So? (2, Insightful)

Klaus_1250 (987230) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763777)

They are going after non-profit P2P's. You mean like Shareaza, Kaza, Limewire? Who cares? All that stuff is absolute malware riddled crap.

I think Kazaa is long dead and neither Shareaza or Limewire contain malware. Most p2p apps don't, it's just a handful that gave all of them a bad name. The p2p networks themselves is something else, but any reasonably sane person can use them without catching malware. The people who download exe's when searching for an mp3 are the problem.

While outlawing them is problematic for preserving freedom, it would ultimately protect people

That is the principle a police state is based on. And it doesn't protect anybody. How am I protected for instance? And who said I needed protection?

just like the death penalty (3, Insightful)

naeone (1430095) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763571)

which deters all murders

Re:just like the death penalty (0)

TheTurtlesMoves (1442727) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763599)

Well you don't get much repeat offenses now do you. ;)

Anti-Competitive Harassment. (5, Interesting)

plasmacutter (901737) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763577)

What is not covered in this article, but buried deep in the links, is that this treaty calls for nations to act immediately upon accusations without any burden of proof, and to absolve copyright companies from any responsibility if they engage in false accusations.

Imagine DMCA takedown notices for the physical world. Talk about a cudgel for anti-competitive harassment with impunity.

Re:Anti-Competitive Harassment. (1)

BiggerIsBetter (682164) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763695)

We had a lot of noise about this in NZ recently - it got passed anyway. The silver-lining is that the accusations can go both ways, and just wait until someone figures out it can become a general purpose business weapon...

GPL violation becomes criminal, then? (1)

Mathinker (909784) | more than 5 years ago | (#26764071)

Somehow, I don't think that's going to do anything except discourage industry from touching open-source with even a thousand-foot pole...

And I wonder who's going to end up in jail? It wouldn't be the embedded software engineer who did what his boss told him, eh?

Ugh.

Re:Anti-Competitive Harassment. (1, Insightful)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763795)

Don't forget door to door searches for internet subscribers, since you know if you are on the internet you have to be a pirate.

No further justification will be required.

Re:Anti-Competitive Harassment. (4, Insightful)

Anne Thwacks (531696) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763799)

and to absolve copyright companies from any responsibility if they engage in false accusations.

I cant see that being possible to enact in Europe.

Also, in Europe, the loser pays the court fees. That will not change for one particular treaty. It would require a change in the European Law of Human Rights. (On a par with chanigng the US constitution for the publicity it would get).

In the UK, for the state to bring a prosecution, it has to be virtually certain of a conviction before starting (to avoid tax payer's money being sqandered on litigation when there are better things to squander it on). A mere suggestion that the evidence might fall to pieces if challenged by experts will normally crush a criminal charge.

Only if the mass media convince their readers/viewers to believe that CD pirates are worse than Somalian pirates will this to work. Since most of them seem more willing to buy pirate DVDs for $3 in the Asda (Walmart) car-park than buy a newspaper, I would not hold my breath.

Re:Anti-Competitive Harassment. (2, Insightful)

andereandre (1362563) | more than 5 years ago | (#26764771)

yes and no. I can see this to fail in both the European Court of Justice and in the European Court of Human Rights (for non Europeans: the first is the EU "supreme court", the other is continent wide, voluntary and treaty based.) However it will take maybe 5 but more likely 10 years before a resolution comes out of those. In my country (the Netherlands) treaties take precedence above national law, and our constitution is just a piece of paper (no constitutional court, laws can't be checked by courts against the constitution). Add to that that we always want to be the teachers favorite pupil so we will enforce ACTA for many years.

I like it......... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26763591)

You'll find the best selection of hot babes, sexy singles, and beautiful dating right at the exclusive interracial dating community,
_______INTERRACIALLOVING.COM______.
Come in and stay a while. Post a message, a pic of yourself and check out the hot photo galleries. You are guaranteed to find someone you like here.........

This will die if exposed to the light (5, Insightful)

mbone (558574) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763613)

They are trying to keep this secret because it would be politically poisonous if revealed.

As I think our friends in Europe have begun to realize, laws based on treaties prepared in secret by bureaucrats without democratic accountability are inherently corrupting of democracy itself. They are also an invitation for the corrupting influence of special interests, who will try and accomplish in secret what they cannot in public.

If these restrictions are worthwhile, let them be proposed and debated in public, as normal laws are. Otherwise, I think this whole process should be shut down. It has been going on far too long for any good that we have been getting from it.

Re:This will die if exposed to the light (3, Insightful)

meist3r (1061628) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763761)

Otherwise, I think this whole process should be shut down. It has been going on far too long for any good that we have been getting from it.

I whole heartedly agree, I also think it should be stopped immediately but what you're not realizing is that the people proposing these legislations don't give a rats ass about what you and me think. They will do that anyway, the politicians are suckered into compliance by payolas and the promise of future support for their ideas so there is no actual way of stopping this. The only way to have a say in the ACTA negotiations would be for a large part of the userbase and public to cry out about the foul play here. Trust me, I tried requesting ACTA documents through my EU parliament people and they all refused on grounds of secrecy laws that don't actually apply to the proceedings and other baseless bullshit.

If you haven't realized it, we are governed. There is no such thing as a people-led democracy, at least in no state that I know of. They're all aristocratic dictatorships that make the appearance of democratic proceeding so there is no civil war. Unless more people realize this and stop paying attention to the farcical sharade that is sold to us as citizen participation there will be no way to stop these people from getting where they want to be.

Prove me wrong, I dare you, prove me wrong. I'd LOVE to see proof that there is actually stuff done in the name of the people and not just in the name of money. Right now, people are sold these ACTA treaties as a means of fighting economy degrading piracy ... what it is in reality is a competition stifling set of rules that will tighten the grip of the industry on the freedom of choice of people and means to make non-compliers obey.

Today the Piratebay, tomorrow independent music labels.

Re:This will die if exposed to the light (1)

mbone (558574) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763999)

Like any long term change in the structure of society, these things take time and public education. When the DMCA first passed, it received all of the public attention of plans for the next hyperspace bypass being posted on Alpha Centauri. There is no way that that could be repeated. I am not saying we couldn't have another DMCA, but not at least without public notice. Next I expect to see politicians running on anti copyright industry platforms. The gradient here at least points in a sensible direction.

On your larger point, the eternal desire for extra-democratic control has likewise largely shifted from out-right dictatorships to extra-national bureaucracy. This may have reached its high-water mark recently, with the EU Constitution on one hand, and the WTO on the other, and now the balance of power seems to be shifting in other directions.

I am not going to try and prove anything good about ACTA. On the contrary, I assume that any secret treaty is bad and was done for malign purposes, as secrecy is far more often in my experience used for hiding the bad than protecting the good.

Re:This will die if exposed to the light (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26766823)

Switzerland is a direct democracy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland

Not every other country in the world has it's government focused on money, Scandinavian countries has traditionally had it's focus on quality of life. So it's not entirely clear cut, even if I on a whole agree with you.

Re:This will die if exposed to the light (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26764353)

They are trying to keep this secret because it would be politically poisonous if revealed.

Yep, and I imagine that the cowards in US Congress will do just like they have did with the DCMA and other IP related acts and pass it with no one going on the official record (with voice votes and Unanimous Consent measure).

What about copyright extensions? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26763643)

Does this mean the next time the US takes music, video and other works from the public via copyright extensions, that we will be able to throw everyone who voted for such a bill (and the president for signing it) into prison? And lobbiests that argued for the bill and the bosses that directed them to do that, found guilty of conspiracy (probably rico would apply)?

Re:What about copyright extensions? (1)

mbone (558574) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763879)

No, of course not. The people doing the taking are the same ones writing the treaties.

We need to write our governments (3, Insightful)

jonwil (467024) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763745)

If you live in the US, write to your congressmen and senators. If you dont, write to your local elected official (in Australia, you can write to your local MP). Write a physical letter (politicians are a lot less likely to listen to an email than to a physical letter although the anthrax scare in the US may have changed things there). Say that you do not support piracy/copyright violations and that you are not arguing that it should be OK to violate someone else's copyright but that you believe that too much power is being given to large copyright holders to take down content/shutdown distribution methods even when that content or those distribution methods do not violate copyright law. Say that you think that copyright holders should be going after individual people who are violating their copyright as long as there is clear proof that a violation did take place. (remember that in most of the lawsuits to date, the proof hasn't been up to snuff which is why the RIAA keeps dropping them rather than risk a precedent against them) Say that you believe that if these new copyright protection measures are introduced that they should be available for ALL copyright violations regardless of the size of the violation, the size of the holder of the copyright or the financial status of the violator (if they are available for everyone and not just the big boys, then they could be used for GPL violations) Say that you do not support their position on the increasing powers being given to large copyright holders and that this issue will affect how you vote at the next election in your country (thats assuming that the relavent local representitive is in fact supporting such increased powers, if they dont support increased powers, tell them that you support their position on this issue and that their position on this issue will affect how you vote at the next election in your country)

Another option is to get a real petition going (on real paper with real people signing it) and send this to your local representitive. Come up with real world examples of how increased powers for large copyright holders will affect normal people.

Oh yeah! (1)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 5 years ago | (#26763849)

Harder punishments always caused people to refrain from breaking the law. That's why there are no murders in states that have the death penalty.

Nobody will heed a law that they don't consider "morally" wrong and that has a very low chance of getting caught. A law that has no public support will not work out. For reference, see prohibition laws.

New penalties (1)

macraig (621737) | more than 5 years ago | (#26765037)

Expect these any day now:

- Copyright Infringers' Registry
- Scarlet letters: tatooing the foreheads of infringers with a big red "P2P"

My thesis about IP (1)

AcidPenguin9873 (911493) | more than 5 years ago | (#26765661)

Here's what everyone on Slashdot seems to miss. IP goods - those easily-reproducible but hard-to-think-up-or-produce-in-the-first-place goods - are the future of modern society. Capitalism requires that IP creators be rewarded *monetarily* for their effors, so that they can buy the non-IP goods they need to survive, things like food and shelter and clothing and transportation.

We can either a) hope that somehow society will evolve to the point where the non-IP goods will become free or easily accessible to those of us involved in the production of IP (some sort of non-corrupt communal/communist state?), or b) we can try to make money from the things we're good at! I'm not betting on a non-corrupt a), which is why I have a hard time completely opposing these types of things which ostensibly to reward IP creators for their work.

I understand the corruption involved in rewarding IP creators (middle men like the RIAA taking all the profits, leaving the IP creators with nothing), but assuming THAT can be fixed, we're back to the basic question: how do we protect the value of IP so that we can be rewarded *monetarily* in our capitalist society?

P.S. - On one hand, I understand that most people on Slashdot are left-oriented "free" folk, but a lot are also employed in some sort of tech or IP-related field. Your future depends on getting this right!

Re:My thesis about IP (1)

calmofthestorm (1344385) | more than 5 years ago | (#26766379)

Then maybe it's time to look for a new business model. Not necessarily one where imaginary property is free, but one where the system works. Clearly the current one doesn't.

I say we quit patching the problem and actually solve issues. But of course that would require a government that cared about its people.

3mod do3n (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26766433)

tJhe chhosing [goat.cx]
Load More Comments
Slashdot Account

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?

Don't worry, we never post anything without your permission.

Submission Text Formatting Tips

We support a small subset of HTML, namely these tags:

  • b
  • i
  • p
  • br
  • a
  • ol
  • ul
  • li
  • dl
  • dt
  • dd
  • em
  • strong
  • tt
  • blockquote
  • div
  • quote
  • ecode

"ecode" can be used for code snippets, for example:

<ecode>    while(1) { do_something(); } </ecode>
Create a Slashdot Account

Loading...