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CCP To Discontinue EVE Online Support For Linux

timothy posted more than 5 years ago | from the adam-also-discontinued-support dept.

Role Playing (Games) 299

maotx writes "CCP's recent support for EVE Online in Linux is now set to be discontinued this March. Released last November along with the Mac OS X client, it has failed to share the expected continual growth as seen with Mac client. Feedback on the EVE Online forums, which includes the e-mail in which CCP announced this decision, suggest that the client was not preferred for Linux users as it did not support the Premium graphics client and did not run as well as the win32 client under Wine. For those who wish to stop playing EVE Online, CCP is offering a refund towards unused game time. Select quote from the e-mail: 'The feedback and commitment we obtained from players like you helped both CCP and Transgaming with our attempts to improve on the quality and stability of the client. Many of us in CCP use Linux and are convinced of its merits as an operating system.'"

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Um... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26775427)

Most of those who use Linux aren't gamers, and probably use their computers for more worthwhile things. If I want to play Eve or WoW, I fire up Wine, or boot into my windows partition.

Re:Um... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26775955)

Well, I tried to play Eve's Linux version on Linux. However, it lets me log to a server and create a character but when I finish character creation and the game would start, it crashes to desktop. I have no idea how to fix that or why it happens and it isn't in technical FAQ.

Instead of booting to windows, I won't play the game at all. It's a shame. I hear it is nice, but I only use Linux these days and won't install windows for that thing only.

Perhaps there truly isn't enough of us Linux would-be gamers or then the problem is just it not working.

Competing with itself?! (0, Redundant)

mysidia (191772) | more than 5 years ago | (#26775439)

along with the Mac OS X client, it has failed to share the expected continual growth as seen with Mac client. F

How can a failure to share expected growth as with the Mac Client be a good justification for discontinuing the Mac OS X client??

Re:Competing with itself?! (3, Informative)

FLEABttn (1466747) | more than 5 years ago | (#26775505)

Released last November along with the Mac OS X client, it has failed to share the expected continual growth as seen with Mac client

Because you failed to read the sentence correctly.

Re:Competing with itself?! (1)

mysidia (191772) | more than 5 years ago | (#26775957)

Ok, I see now... they mean "as seen with the Mac client", the Linux client has failed to share the expected continual growth (implicit reference to the Windows client)

I would say the sentence was written very poorly.

It's still very disappointing to be losing Linux and OS X clients for a popular game :-(

Re:Competing with itself?! (1)

sssssss27 (1117705) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776063)

CCP's recent support for EVE Online in Linux is now set to be discontinued this March. Released last November along with the Mac OS X client, it has failed to share the expected continual growth as seen with Mac client.

You have to read it in context with the first sentence. The sentence says that CCP is discontinuing support for the Linux client because it isn't doing as well as the Mac client. The sentence doesn't say they will be discontinuing the Mac client.

Re:Competing with itself?! (2)

Jthon (595383) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776159)

You still fail. They aren't getting rid of the Mac client.

They expected the number of users of the Linux and Mac clients to grow. The mac user base has grown, but the Linux user base appears to have stagnated.

Re:Competing with itself?! (2, Informative)

poetmatt (793785) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776293)

Nobody is losing Eve via Linux/Mac at all. All they're using is a horribly supported, pitiful binary version of Cedega that ran 1000x worse than via Wine. It couldn't even support DirectX9, it was that bad. Wine on the other hand, is working on supporting DX10 soon.

I wish they'd take all that supposed effort in the "official linux client" and sent it towards Wine, really.

Re:Competing with itself?! (1)

mysidia (191772) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776395)

Ok, that's a bit reassuring.. but why then can't they redirect their Linux effort to support Wine, rather than dropping it entirely?

Perhaps there's something Wine contributors could do in order to convince them?

Re:Competing with itself?! (2, Interesting)

poetmatt (793785) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776495)

Eh, not really. I don't know but I'm skeptical as to what Wine contributors could do to persuade them.

CCP is a company that does some truly groundbreaking programming, but mostly on the server-side and not so much on the client side. They do things a little slower client-side.

I suggested such on the forums over there, but CCP is in the business to make money...I'm not sure if they see the "long enough down the road" concept of making money via supporting Linux as a business case or not.

Re:Competing with itself?! (1)

MooUK (905450) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776591)

The client already works very well under wine - better than the "native" client (which wasn't) did.

As mentioned in the summary, the windows client under wine was preferred by most users. Makes sense for them just to support that and put perhaps a little effort into making it work even more smoothly than support a separate client.

Re:Competing with itself?! (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26776357)

OMFG, where did you learn how to read? You can't possably be this fucking stupid?

Re:Competing with itself?! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26775515)

They're not discontinuing the Mac client, just the Linux client.

Re:Competing with itself?! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26775549)

Because OSX users don't play video games.

They use their computers for watching Queer as Folk DVD's and Skin Gang [imdb.com] when they're not listening to N'SYNC or planning a trip to the local bathhouse with their buddies.

Makes you wonder... (5, Interesting)

Shadow7789 (1000101) | more than 5 years ago | (#26775443)

why they even released an official client if it performed better under WINE.

Re:Makes you wonder... (4, Insightful)

vikstar (615372) | more than 5 years ago | (#26775605)

makes you wonder how they failed to realease an official client that performs better than under WINE.

Re:Makes you wonder... (5, Funny)

Jamie's Nightmare (1410247) | more than 5 years ago | (#26775757)

I don't know. All good questions, but somehow we've got to find a way to blame Microsoft for this.

Re:Makes you wonder... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26776087)

Yeah. Otherwise you can't call everyone "slashbots." Dammit. We need to fix this now!

Re:Makes you wonder... (5, Funny)

psetzer (714543) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776349)

The usual way is implying that Microsoft paid them off to kill the Linux client. Considering the state of the Icelandic economy and the number of people actually using that client, I think that probably amounted to mailing them a really nice fruit basket.

Re:Makes you wonder... (1)

pilot1 (610480) | more than 5 years ago | (#26775849)

They didn't. When CCP says "official Linux client", they mean "official Cedega and old Windows client bundle".

Re:Makes you wonder... (1)

Kjella (173770) | more than 5 years ago | (#26775881)

makes you wonder how they failed to realease an official client that performs better than under WINE.

1. Take Windows client
2. Try to replace with Linux counterparts
3. Realize that it's not a 100% match and that you just introduced a bunch of bugs

A lot of the interfaces WINE offers are well understood and well implemented. Sadly software tends to only need one exception to barf and die, but if they use the "right" APIs I have no problems imagining a good emulator being better than a crappy port.

Re:Makes you wonder... (1, Interesting)

AikonMGB (1013995) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776133)

No kidding.. this is like the record industry releasing shitty music without DRM and pointing to its low sales to show that people don't want to buy DRM-free music.

*sigh*

Aikon-

Re:Makes you wonder... (1)

Eat By A Grue (1357605) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776265)

shhh... dont give the RIAA any more ideas on justifying DRM.

Re:Makes you wonder... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26776279)

It's not a big surprise. Wine just is very good. Some win32 programs run a lot better under Wine than under Windows Vista, if at all. Some games even run faster in Wine (dirextX layered on top of openGL) than in Windows XP (native directX).

I don't wonder. (2, Informative)

waveclaw (43274) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776379)

CCP is claiming that they can't count the number of wine users because wine reports 'as windows' and not as 'wine on Linux.' Bullet meet foot.

FTA,

The Eve Online Linux client is as native as notepad.exe.

What do you expect?

file "~/.cedega/EVE Online/c_drive/Program Files/CCP/EVE/eve.exe"
eve.exe: MS-DOS executable PE for MS Windows (GUI) Intel 80386 32-bit

Throw away for a moment the fact that Direct X translation to OpenGl is super slow compared with native OpenGL.

Wine >> winex.

Cedega = winex + no development updates + horrible hacks and workarounds for certain games.

The Eve-Online client is still a windows program. It is unsurprising that the best windows API on Linux would work better. CCP picked Transgaming to do the "porting." They once had the leading implementation of DirectX on Linux, but their tiny team worked on their private and increasingly hacked up fork of ancient wineX code.

Duplication of effort and waste all in the name of greed. And now it's the Linux users who get to pay.

Re:I don't wonder. (1)

vikstar (615372) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776477)

Throw away for a moment the fact that Direct X translation to OpenGl is super slow compared with native OpenGL.

People are still using Direct3D instead of OpenGL for anything but the XBox? Tysk, tysk.

Re:Makes you wonder... (1)

Vahokif (1292866) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776635)

Because they used an ancient outdated commercialized wine fork to run it?

Re:Makes you wonder... (2, Interesting)

BrentH (1154987) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776179)

They used Transgamings standalone Cedega (like how many games are ported to OSX, under the name of Cider). Remember how Cedega is a fork of Wine, years and years ago when Wine was hardly capable of 3D accelerated stuff? The two projects separately developed implementations of Direct3D, an this just shows Wine has done a better job.

A brief look at the Transgaming forums show that actual development of Cedega has stopped. Wine is the better choice these days.

Did anyone use the Linux client? (1)

travisb828 (1002754) | more than 5 years ago | (#26775455)

Just wondering. I always found the Linux lacking when compared to the premium graphics client under wine.

Re:Did anyone use the Linux client? (2, Interesting)

BigBuckHunter (722855) | more than 5 years ago | (#26775497)

I tried out the Linux client, and was unable to make it work despite having the game working under wine. I really wish that CCP had simply contributed the necessary bug fixes directly to wineHQ (or crossover), rather than a proprietary spinoff.

BBH

Re:Did anyone use the Linux client? (2, Informative)

reeeh2000 (1328037) | more than 5 years ago | (#26775529)

I attempted to use it. I found that it did not work very well. The UI was vary packed and difficult to use. I had to remove the chat window just to see the ships controls. All in all, it was so poorly done that I didn't use more than a few hours of the 14 day trial account.

Re:Did anyone use the Linux client? (1)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 5 years ago | (#26775885)

That specific point was mentioned in the summary.

Re:Did anyone use the Linux client? (1)

Arrakiv (1272134) | more than 5 years ago | (#26775899)

I tried it for a while, but found that the client run in Wine was just hugely better. The premium graphics certainly helped. If the Linux client (which was just the EVE client sitting inside of Cedega) at least had that, it would have been more successful, no doubt.

CCP To Discontinue EVE Online Support For Linux (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26775467)

NIGGUH WHUT?

Who would of thought that.. (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26775477)

Sub par graphics and an inability to compete with its wine counterpart would contribute to its own death.

uh (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26775499)

it did not support the Premium graphics client and did not run as well as the win32 client under Wine

So...maybe nobody was using the client because it sucked? Well, if they make Wine a supported platform for their Windows client, that wouldn't be too bad. I remember when World of Goo was released, with Linux support promised (still not here), it ran perfectly on Wine.

It's still a shitty alternative to say, OGRE. But if you absolutely must use DirectX, just test on Wine the same way you test on WinXP or Vista.

Re:uh (1)

Kugrian (886993) | more than 5 years ago | (#26775985)

I remember when World of Goo was released, with Linux support promised (still not here)..

Not likely to happen anytime soon with rumours that Brighter Minds Media have filed for bankruptcy [kotaku.com] .

Re:uh (1)

meist3r (1061628) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776565)

Just because the publisher is broke that doesn't mean the developer dies with them. That's why they are different branches of the same business. But it certainly won't give 2D Boy any more reason to actually finish the Linux support.

WoG Linux version progressing (1)

zooblethorpe (686757) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776645)

Not likely to happen anytime soon with rumours that Brighter Minds Media have filed for bankruptcy [kotaku.com] .

... Except Brighter Minds never developed World of Goo in the first place -- that distinction belongs to the tiny 2D Boy dev house. They note on their blog [2dboy.com] that the Linux version is coming along. Sure, it's been slow as molasses, but I'd say that it might actually be "likely to happen some time soon". :)

Cheers,

Bummer for them... (2, Interesting)

aztektum (170569) | more than 5 years ago | (#26775555)

I was about to ditch WoW + Crossover for EVE because of their support (and talking my WoW friends into doing the same). Now I don't know...

Re:Bummer for them... (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26775659)

I'm sure they'll change their mind when they read this. :)

Re:Bummer for them... (4, Informative)

pilot1 (610480) | more than 5 years ago | (#26775689)

CCP doesn't support Linux, but wine has done a good job of making sure it runs well. I've been playing for a little over 2 years and have never had any problems with wine.

Re:Bummer for them... (1)

tehmorph (844326) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776235)

Absolutely. Don't take this as 'EVE doesn't work on Linux'. It does, it just needs Wine. Hopefully this'll see CCP spending more time contributing to Wine's source rather than to Transgaming's wallet. Loads of people use EVE under Wine. Many did before the Linux client release, hence the slow/nonexistent takeup.

Linux - Year of the desktop (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26775571)

NOT!!!

Is it really so hard to support Linux natively? (2, Interesting)

Lazy Jones (8403) | more than 5 years ago | (#26775583)

For a company with 300+ employees, how hard can it be to write a client with native Linux support? Even Vendetta Online has one and EVE uses Python mostly on the client side (= portable).

CCP is yet another Windows shop that would rather throw a lot of money at a crummy DirectX wrapper than look over the fence and embrace native Linux development.

Re:Is it really so hard to support Linux natively? (4, Insightful)

imsabbel (611519) | more than 5 years ago | (#26775681)

To your title: Yes.
Its easily a support nightmare.

OTOH, i am very sure that CCP looked at their stats, counted the number of linux cusomers and made some quick calculations that showed they will never make the money they would need to spend.

Re:Is it really so hard to support Linux natively? (2, Insightful)

pilot1 (610480) | more than 5 years ago | (#26775705)

They use DirectX, so pretty hard.

Surprisingly hard (2, Informative)

CarpetShark (865376) | more than 5 years ago | (#26775711)

Given that Linux is yet to even standardise on a single unified sound output API, how can we expect anything more? Just to load and play a sound, you need a sound API, and codecs. For sound, you have alsa, OSS, and layers on top like NAS, ESD, pulse, SDL, JACK, whatever KDE went with that I forget, etc. Arguably, some or all of these may fail to meet requirements. For codecs, you have gstreamer, (probably) SDL, etc., and a nightmare of communicating to customers what extra libraries they'll need, even if one of these works. Linux will get people bothering to provide native support when Linux people bother to provide decent APIs and docs, and unify around them.

All Hail 'Choice'! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26775781)

We love choice! It's 'teh power of open source"!

Re:Surprisingly hard (5, Insightful)

coryking (104614) | more than 5 years ago | (#26775845)

Yes, but by standardizing API's and kernel goo it would make it easy for so-called proprietary vendors like CCP to support Linux. According to som in the Linux community it is fact better to provide random API's that change all the time--that way proprietary vendors get scared off.

The fact that Linux is so hard for vendors like CCP is seen by some in the Linux community as a feature, not a bug. Hopefully, those very same people in the community are cheering CCP pulling out of native Linux support, as it clearly shows their plan is working as intended.

Re:Surprisingly hard (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26775965)

Who in the hell are you talking about? There are lots of unfortunate reasons for the multimedia mess in Linux, but an active desire to scare off developers is not one of them. Do you have quotes from any developer actually expressing this opinion?

Sure thing boss. (4, Interesting)

coryking (104614) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776103)

So, how do we permit plugins while prohibiting proprietary plugins, and how do we do it while staying within the bounds of copyright law which is the basis of the GPL?... ...most people participating in the related discussions on the gcc mailing list, suggested already that an unstable plugin API would bring all major advantages of plugins in gcc, while complicating the scenario of proprietary plugins.

- GCC Plugin Wiki [gnu.org]

That is the first that comes to mind. I believe Linus himself has been quoted as saying something along the lines of "We don't promise a stable kernel ABI and if that means breaking binary drivers, oh well, in fact we might change the ABI just to break them on purpose!". Can't find the quote though.

And if you still aren't convinced, just browse the comments right here at Slashdot every time there is a story about some driver somewhere. There indeed exists a group of people who want to purposefully mix shit up hoping to scare certain kinds of developers away.

Re:Sure thing boss. (1)

cheesybagel (670288) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776255)

The kernel is GPLed. The legality of binary kernel drivers is pretty thin and rests only on the fact that the developers aren't in the mood to sue anyone for doing it. WTF should they care about someone who is doing something against the (quite liberal) license anyway?

I didn't say they were wrong (3, Interesting)

coryking (104614) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776421)

But the by product of the kernel developers actions does two things:

1) Establishes a tone and attitude that one should randomize your API to fight off proprietary software.
2) Actually works... see also this article.

If you you agree with that attitude, that is fine and I respect that. However, this article is an example of that attitude working. You cannot be for things like binary games like WoW running on Linux and still promote an attitude of actively making their life difficult. If you are doing it under the idea that it will encourage them to open-source, you will have to accept when companies choose to abandon Linux instead--as in this case.

But they have a flawed argument.. (2, Informative)

Junta (36770) | more than 5 years ago | (#26775977)

For the same reason it is a pain for commercial apps, it is a pain for OSS too. A disproportionate amount of effort in various projects is invested in spinning on API updates...

Most things have calmed down, but audio frameworks for some reason stay in a state of significant flux. Today's 'correct' API is pulseaudio, which will abstract the underlying mess, but who knows what tomorrow brings. I'm still haven't followed esd and arts lately to see if they have relevance. dmix and the like I bunch up in alsa which I think you don't touch directly as an app developer because a higher layer controls it...

Re:Surprisingly hard (5, Interesting)

Pecisk (688001) | more than 5 years ago | (#26775983)

Ohh my God, another "Linux architecture is hard, therefore vendors have problems" apologist.

Listen, CCP was never hiding behind a fact that so called "Linux client" is just a Windows client with Wine wrapper. And frankly, with Wine or Crossover Games you would have more success than Transgaming (which from mine point of view is completely shite). Transgaming based client has hard time with ATI video cards, with exsotic sound card settings, etc. Of course you can tweak it, but what's the point then? They have nice forum where people already exchanging with ideas how to get EVE running on Linux.

There are one space sim (rather funny one), which has real *native* client. NEVER had problems with that, even on open source ati drivers on Radeons. So propably it is not that hard to do that...natively.

Re:Surprisingly hard (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26775973)

Linux will get people bothering to provide native support when Linux people bother to provide decent APIs and docs, and unify around them.

Well said!

Re:Surprisingly hard (3, Informative)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776045)

Given that Linux is yet to even standardise on a single unified sound output API

That's a troll argument. It doesn't have to be unified, as long as the systems talk to each other -- which they do.

For games? Use OpenAL. That's a no-brainer, that gets you 3D surround, and handles plugging into whatever they've got, hardware or software, any OS. Then the user, or the distro, can configure OpenAL to use ALSA natively, or use Jack, or whatever other layer they want to put in there.

whatever KDE went with that I forget,

KDE wrote a wrapper for all of the above, plus native ALSA (on Linux), and whatever Windows/OS X provide.

For codecs, you have

the same set of codecs you have on Windows, if you're licensing them. Or, if you'd like to save yourself some money, you use Vorbis/FLAC, available both in native libraries and through gstreamer/SDL.

This is as retarded as people claiming that the fact that both GNOME and KDE exists means Linux will never be a good desktop. OH NOES, choice, whatever shall we do. JUST PICK ONE! And no, you don't need the community to pick one for you -- close your eyes and play pin-the-tail-on-the-audio-library.

They all work. The existence of others, especially when the one you want (OpenAL) will plug into all of them, is not something you even have to think about.

a nightmare of communicating to customers what extra libraries they'll need

Or you include those libraries with the game -- it's really not that difficult to configure the game to use your libraries instead of the system libraries. Or you distribute a demo under a license that allows redistribution, and let the distros work it out -- when people want the full game, they put in a key and download the rest of the content.

But really, how is it a "nightmare", even if you had to spell out dependencies? How is it in any way harder than "communicating" what version of DirectX you need on Windows?

Linux will get people bothering to provide native support when

when people who might potentially port start looking at what's already there, and how hard it's not. If an indie game with close to no budget can provide native Linux support (think: every Introversion game, every Penny Arcade game, a few from Chronic Logic...), I would think that a company with 300+ employees could find one who knows at least as much as one of those guys.

Re:Surprisingly hard (1)

vlm (69642) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776455)

a nightmare of communicating to customers what extra libraries they'll need

Or you distribute a demo under a license that allows redistribution, and let the distros work it out -- when people want the full game, they put in a key and download the rest of the content.

Oddly enough, Debian has about ten thousand packages most of which handle dependencies transparently to the user. I'm sure with that much practice handling one more package won't be too difficult.

Now this won't work with Oracle or MS Office as they can just download the package and never pay, but Eve is/was a MMORPG which means its quite useless without a paid login.

I stopped playing EVE years ago because at the time they only supported windows and I lost my only working windows install (mac and linux only household). I never got around to reactivating my account, now I never will.

Re:Surprisingly hard (1)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776681)

Now this won't work with Oracle or MS Office as they can just download the package and never pay

Missing the point about a demo. Granted, the shareware model works better for games, where you can simply withhold the actual content until they pay -- but either method is relying on DRM, which ultimately fails.

But you are right -- an MMO doesn't have that problem. The smarter ones just offer the full game as a free download, and make you pay for an account -- expansions are tied to an account, for example.

Re:Surprisingly hard (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26776091)

NAS, ESD, pulse have nothing to do with audio programming.
OpenAL is what is being used in linux/macosx for audio programming in games. It is also increasingly used in a bunch of other platforms including Windows instead of directsound and Xbox360.
SDL is mostly a wrapper for input, opengl, and 2d graphics. Most of the directinput stuff is supported by sdl or the input subsystem in linux and opengl is the same on any platform.

Most games also do not use scheduling and multiprocessing facilities of the underlying OS.

Porting a game in linux/macosx is as easy as hiring a opengl programmer with linux/macosx knowledge.

The decision does not belong in the programming team but rather at the management/marketing.

Re:Surprisingly hard (1)

cheesybagel (670288) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776207)

Every modern Linux distro I have seen includes ALSA. I have not seen a distro use OSS for years now.

As for APIs, you forgot OpenAL. Here is a list of games using it: Doom 3, Jedi Knight 2, Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy, Quake 4, Prey, Unreal 2, Unreal Tournament 2003, Unreal Tournament 2004, Unreal Tournament 3, Postal, America's Army, Battlefield 2, Battlefield 2142, Freedom Fighters, Hitman, Psychonauts, Colin McRae: DiRT, Penumbra: Black Plague, Race Driver: GRID.

The same is true in Windows. Many games use OpenAL, FMOD, Miles Sound System, rather than DirectSound.

Re:Surprisingly hard (1)

_Sprocket_ (42527) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776335)

Yet oddly enough, my copies of NWN, Q3, and UT2004 didn't have problems. Weird. Maybe they know something others don't? (heck - even Bioware needed to learn a few more things).

Re:Surprisingly hard (1)

mR.bRiGhTsId3 (1196765) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776401)

You forgot to mention the fact that if they want to release the client on its own, they have to maintain packages for all the big distributions, because stuff compiled for one is hit or miss on another.

Re:Is it really so hard to support Linux natively? (0, Troll)

sentientbrendan (316150) | more than 5 years ago | (#26775987)

how hard can it be to write a client with native Linux support?

Very hard.

Why don't you pick up a random Linux game that was made 5 or six years ago and see if it runs on a random Linux box. Just go grab some Doom or Quake demo and put it on some random box with a different distro than the one the demo was tested against.

If you can even get the thing to install and launch, sound definitely won't work.

The reason people have a hard time developing complicated commercial software on Linux is that said software is distributed in binary form, and Linux is *not* built for binary distribution.

Libraries break their ABI periodically on Linux because no one really thinks about binary developers. Think about this: a deb package for Ubuntu from a release six months ago will probably not work on the next release.

Aside from that, sound is an enormous clusterfuck on Linux. Sound is kind of important for games.

Considering all these problems, the return on investment is very low. There are very few Desktop Linux users. The mac has about 10% desktop marketshare now, but Linux is under 1%

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=8 [hitslink.com]

and most Linux users, including myself, just dual boot to play games. So why should a game company pay a bunch of developers full time for a year to port the game? That's hundreds of thousands of dollars they will *never* make back on a market like that.

Re:Is it really so hard to support Linux natively? (3, Interesting)

PeterBrett (780946) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776135)

Why don't you pick up a random Linux game that was made 5 or six years ago and see if it runs on a random Linux box. Just go grab some Doom or Quake demo and put it on some random box with a different distro than the one the demo was tested against. If you can even get the thing to install and launch, sound definitely won't work.

The original official Quake III and IV Linux binary releases still run fine on my bleeding-edge Linux box (yes, it uses PulseAudio). The same goes for Uplink, Defcon and Darwinia. Your point was what, exactly? That most studios that release game binaries for Linux are too incompetent to statically link them?

Either you're a troll, or you need to practice what you preach.

Re:Is it really so hard to support Linux natively? (1)

Briareos (21163) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776391)

Either you're a troll, or you need to practice what you preach.

Uhhh... you might want to read his .sig sometime...

"Linux Hater's Blog" - of course he's a troll.

np: Soul 223 - In Search Of Slowly (Soul Jazz Records Singles 2006-2007 (Disc 2))

Re:Is it really so hard to support Linux natively? (1)

Lazy Jones (8403) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776213)

Sound is kind of important for games.

definetely not for EVE ...

So why should a game company pay a bunch of developers full time for a year to port the game? That's hundreds of thousands of dollars they will *never* make back on a market like that.

EVE is a niche game, it could easily find a few 1000s more customers among Linux users who have nearly no choice in the MMOG market.

Re:Is it really so hard to support Linux natively? (1)

Alex Belits (437) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776301)

Libraries break their ABI periodically on Linux because no one really thinks about binary developers. Think about this: a deb package for Ubuntu from a release six months ago will probably not work on the next release.

That's why it's a debian package -- it is maintained along with the rest of Debian distribution.

However Linux games come with their own libraries, and therefore continue running. At worst they may need a wrapper if it's an old game that used OSS instead of ALSA for sound, so to share the audio card with other applications it needs aoss or esddsp.

The point you are trying to make is, "Linux changes its system calls interface (that's what ABI is) and X protocol", however that would be false. My copies of Unreal Tournament and Quake 3 run now just like they did almost a decade ago (except with higher resolution and more fps).

Epic fail (0, Flamebait)

Lord Byron II (671689) | more than 5 years ago | (#26775643)

If your Win32 client works better in Linux than the Linux client, then you've got a problem. They should have just entered into a distribution agreement with Transgaming from the start to bundle their code with Cedega.

Re:Epic fail (2, Insightful)

chammy (1096007) | more than 5 years ago | (#26775723)

Exactly. Ever since the first install of the linux client on my machine, I've preferred to just run the Premium client in wine.

Valve can see how many people are running Steam in linux by the type of virtual sound card wine uses. What a bummer that they apparently measure how many linux users are online by the client they downloaded.

I guess it's EVE Offline (2, Funny)

syousef (465911) | more than 5 years ago | (#26775709)

...if you're running Linux ;-)

Re:I guess it's EVE Offline (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26775765)

... and if you arnt running wine (which one should for Eve as it performs better)

I felt a great disturbance in the Force... (1)

HiVizDiver (640486) | more than 5 years ago | (#26775755)

... as if millions of nerds suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced.

Re:I felt a great disturbance in the Force... (4, Funny)

rob1980 (941751) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776105)

... as if tens of nerds suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced.

Fixed. This is Eve Online we're talking about after all, and not World of Warcraft... ;)

Re:I felt a great disturbance in the Force... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26776149)

...dozens, rather.

Re:I felt a great disturbance in the Force... (1)

TheThiefMaster (992038) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776217)

Except they actually don't care, because they were already running the Windows client in Wine instead, because it ran better.

I use Linux heavily (4, Interesting)

sentientbrendan (316150) | more than 5 years ago | (#26775761)

and do all of my development work on it... and periodically I reboot into Windows to play Fallout 3.

I like Linux for development, but the fact is that it is not as good of a gaming platform as Windows is.

Windows has better video drivers, and it has a tons of teams at Microsoft working on things like directx that directly support gaming. Aside from that it has an enormous industry devoted to developing windows games.

Oh, and sound just works on Windows, did I mention that? That's pretty important for games. I have surround sound working on my Linux install, which took some doing, but as soon as I plug in my USB headset so I can use skype, the Linux sound system explodes. That means that even if left for dead was on Linux, I still wouldn't be able to play it.

Really, I don't see what the big deal with dual booting is and since people like me are just going to dual boot, I can't imagine why any game maker would waste money on a Linux port.

If I can play my game even marginally better on windows I have no reason not to get the windows version.

Re:I use Linux heavily (2, Insightful)

FrostDust (1009075) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776189)

Really, I don't see what the big deal with dual booting is and since people like me are just going to dual boot, I can't imagine why any game maker would waste money on a Linux port.

If I can play my game even marginally better on windows I have no reason not to get the windows version.

Not everyone is going to pay >100 USD, or use a pirated copy of Windows, just to play one game.

Re:I use Linux heavily (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26776359)

...and many game companies are not going to invest their time and effort to support your operating system, just to pick up a handful of customers

Re:I use Linux heavily (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26776511)

Not everyone is going to pay >100 USD, or use a pirated copy of Windows, just to play one game.

True! What's also true is not everybody is going to have only Linux. Now what this news is actually about is there are not enough people who play EVE on Linux to make it feasible to continue support.

This isn't about a company that's just guessing there isn't enough business to pay for a Linux version. This is a company that invested real money and made one, and found out for sure there isn't enough business to pay for their Linux version. So they're going to stop losing money. But they tried. Thank you CCP for an honest effort.

Re:I use Linux heavily (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26776593)

Just as not everyone is going to pay AU$90 or use a pirated copy of a game, just to play said game.

Re:I use Linux heavily (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26776607)

Yeah because there has only ever been one game written for windows ever?

Re:I use Linux heavily (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26776501)

MICROSHIT WINDAIDS

Ma^8e (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26775841)

today. It's about NIIGER ASSOCIATION

Re:Ma^8e (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26776101)

Niggers are what they are because of how apes behave. This is the philosophy behind Niggerbuntu. They also advocate humanity towards monkeys. Join Niggerbuntu today!

failed to show growth... (2, Informative)

d0n0vAn (1382471) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776065)

Failed to show growth my ass. Ubuntu was by far the easiest distribution to get Eve up and running. Hell, I even got Eve to run on my netbook. It wasn't lack of interest. Tell the fucking truth: CCP couldn't get it right and they never released a native linux client. Their support was terrible. That's why they failed.

It ran on Linux? (2, Insightful)

DoofusOfDeath (636671) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776131)

I saw tons of webpage ads for Eve Online, but I never noticed anything about it running on Linux.

If I'd known that, there's a good chance I would have signed up, partially for the fun and partially to support games companies that support Linux.

Is the real lesson here that they didn't properly advertise their Linux compatibility? Or is it just that I need to get glasses?

Considering how shoddy and buggy the Mac client is (1)

SvnLyrBrto (62138) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776161)

I'm kind of surprised that there ARE enough Mac people still playing to fund development. And I'm not particularly surprised that the Linux client would be just as terrible to drive people away.

Say what you want about Blizzard, WoW-tards, and all that. But they don't leave major bugs unfixed and major features missing (Did they EVER bother to add the premium graphics to Mac or Linux?) on one platform versus the other.

cya,
john

In CCCP... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26776231)

In CCCP, Eve Online discontinues you!

heh... get it?

I went back to Elite (1)

horza (87255) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776245)

I really wanted to play Eve but couldn't get the client to work (this was a while ago). Instead I got a good hit of nostalgia playing oolite [oolite.org] , a copy of the old 8-bit Elite. I haven't tried out the crazy amount of expansion packs [alioth.net] . If anybody knows anything similar or better please post below!

Phillip.

migration path (5, Funny)

Lord Ender (156273) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776253)

CCP is encouraging users of the Linux EVE client to upgrade to the OpenOffice.org Calc application.

Re:migration path (5, Funny)

meist3r (1061628) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776547)

I heard recently someone disbanded one of the largest tables ever inserted into one of those ... amazing stuff.

Saw this coming from the start (1)

Judinous (1093945) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776431)

The same patch that released the Linux client also fucked up Linux compatibility. I went from being able to run 6 clients smoothly to choking on 2 with Crossover and Wine. I ended up selling off my extra accounts because I simply couldn't play them anymore. The native client was unusable (significant graphical errors, low framerate) for months after release, itself. This was quite a significant change from the previous situation, because Linux actually ran the game better than Windows did (about 30% higher FPS in my particular case) in their original (pre-classic/premium divide) client which made little use of the GPU.

I like CCP a lot and they definitely had good intentions, here. They made a terrible mistake by going with the Cedega team instead of the Crossover/Wine developers, though. I knew a few dozen other Linux users who also tried out their official client and then immediately reverted, so it is not surprising to me that they do not have the usage numbers to justify its development.

Read as: (1)

Alzheimers (467217) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776459)

"The Client we paid developers to make for us was not up to par with a free client supported by volunteers."

Translation: our hiring team don't know their asses from their elbows.

Official script for wine install? (1)

SwedishPenguin (1035756) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776535)

So apparently, it worked better under wine, with better graphics to boot. Why didn't they just publish an install script which downloaded, installed and configured the version of wine that worked best, and install the game using that copy of wine?

My first attempt at a soviet russia joke... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26776543)

In soviet russia, the CCCP discontinues you.

Last November? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26776559)

Not quite correct, and the summary event links to another /. article dated 2007. The poster must've been in quite a hurry not to spot that (or the current date on his calendar for that matter).

Maybe it's because (1)

rk (6314) | more than 5 years ago | (#26776683)

When I install the Windows client, I can play. When I install the Mac client, I can play. When I get the Linux installer, I get:

ARGS are -GAME EveOnline-linux
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "/usr/lib/eve/cedega_installer.py", line 17, in <module>
import gtk, gtk.glade
ImportError: No module named gtk

Oh, I see, so apparently my pygtk installation isn't right. Whereupon I say "fuck it", since I want to play a game and not spend an hour in Gnome/Gtk dependency hell just to find out what dependency hell is lurking on line 18 of cedega_installer.py.

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