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Five Questions With Michael Widenius

ScuttleMonkey posted more than 5 years ago | from the wouldn't-be-open-source-without-drama dept.

Databases 71

volume4 writes "With two MySQL execs leaving Sun in the last week, the internet is buzzing about what is going on at Sun, what is the future of MySQL and what lies ahead for Michael Widenius. Over at Open Source Release Feed, Widenius spoke candidly regarding his split from Sun, the future of MySQL, Monty Program AB, and the open source ecosystem in general."

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Politics as usual (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26788727)

people in MySQL management made my life hell; They didn't let me participate in MySQL development, didn't give me resources in doing Maria development and did a lot of backstabbing to make my life difficult.

Do you find the politics in the real world more difficult than the ones in the Open Source community?

Re:Politics as usual (3, Interesting)

von_rick (944421) | more than 5 years ago | (#26788987)

I think this thread is about 5 question for MW that he has already answered :)

Back to what you said: I think it was mostly the management and less of politics. The role of management is usually to dictate terms that they have absolutely no clue about. A marketing exec managing a SQL functionalities is gonna make the team go sour given enough time.

Re:Politics as usual (4, Insightful)

zappepcs (820751) | more than 5 years ago | (#26789133)

Whether the speculation on reasons for the two leaving is right or not, there is one thing that can be said: MySQL had enough going for it that Sun paid a tidy sum to get it. Whatever they did to cause the 'break up' it was not a good thing.

Car Analogy: If you buy a racing team; expensive cars, mechanics, drivers... and two star drivers walk out... well, lets just say winner's circle is probably not in your short term future, and the cost of business operations just doubled.

Re:Politics as usual (3, Funny)

sunking2 (521698) | more than 5 years ago | (#26789433)

Not if you have Ricky Bobby in the pits.

Re:Politics as usual (1)

mb1 (966747) | more than 5 years ago | (#26789847)

...or the beautiful death machine that is ShakeNBakeSQL.

Re:Politics as usual (1)

laa (457196) | more than 5 years ago | (#26794315)

I think this thread is about 5 question for MW that he has already answered :)

Fascist! :)

Fort poost (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26788729)

hai

MySQL to be thrown onto the community? (1)

dov_0 (1438253) | more than 5 years ago | (#26788769)

While it wouldn't be the first of Sun's projects to go open, maybe they will limit their input into the project and give preference to open source contributions. Maybe take things up again post recession.

Re:MySQL to be thrown onto the community? (0)

morgan_greywolf (835522) | more than 5 years ago | (#26788983)

Okay, so like 2020 at the soonest?

Re:MySQL to be thrown onto the community? (2, Interesting)

ShieldW0lf (601553) | more than 5 years ago | (#26789095)

What a funny interview. He talks all about trust and open source, and yet one of the major reasons I have always avoided open source is because I personally distrusted the two major developers.

I remember reading countless times how this or that missing feature wasn't needed, and how it was bad practice to use it in the first place. Then, next version, they'd brag that they had it. They would ignore referential integrity, but hide that fact, and call their bugs "Gotchas" or "Features". They would claim that having intelligence in the database and reduce traffic across the wire was bad practice, and that you should move entire result sets into the middle tier and filter it there in their forums, and on and on and on.

If they had been forthright about what compromises they made, what the strengths and weaknesses of their design were, and been prepared to acknowledge that there were tasks it wasn't fit for, I might have put it to more use. But at the end of the day, I couldn't trust the developers not to engage in misleading behavior, so I stayed far away from it, and used PostgreSQL instead.

In the end, the developers tried to pull a DivX Networks/Project Mayo type of move and rip off the community, and this was only reversed when Sun bought them out.

It's good to see that those lying, thieving bastards are no longer involved with the project. Particularly since I am now obligated to use their bastard child at work.

Re:MySQL to be thrown onto the community? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26789971)

I agree -- any database that does not support foreign keys (referential integrity) is really not a database -- it's just a toy.

Use Oracle, DB2, or Postgres for any 'real' work.

Re:MySQL to be thrown onto the community? (2, Interesting)

ShieldW0lf (601553) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790255)

I agree -- any database that does not support foreign keys (referential integrity) is really not a database -- it's just a toy. Use Oracle, DB2, or Postgres for any 'real' work.

See, that's the thing. There are narrow niches where that's a strength, where a little bit of garbage data in there isn't going to cause any harm, and the speed mitigates the weaknesses. And if they had been upfront and forthright about the capacities of the project, that would have been fine.

But when you come across another "not-a-bug-a-gotcha-or-a-feature" every other month that you didn't know about because they were forthright, and you're forced to work with projects that were incredibly poorly designed because people trusted the developers advice and did everything wrong... there isn't any trust there. You couldn't feel safe using it for anything significant unless you're actually getting right in there and hacking it yourself and seeing what it does, because you know from experience that they'd flat out lie to you if they thought it would increase their market share.

How well do you know MySQL? (1)

toby (759) | more than 5 years ago | (#26797523)

InnoDB does support foreign key constraints. (And I'll mention that it has ACID transactions as well, since you may not know that either.)

Re:How well do you know MySQL? (1)

ShieldW0lf (601553) | more than 5 years ago | (#26919473)

InnoDB does support foreign key constraints. (And I'll mention that it has ACID transactions as well, since you may not know that either.)

Well, actually, InnoDB was made by another group and is currently "owned" by Oracle if I'm not mistaken. Regardless, I remember when they didn't have these things, and they constantly put forth that they were some backwards way of doing things that was unjustified and that if you were doing things right, you didn't need them. This isn't about features. It's about trust.

Re:MySQL to be thrown onto the community? (1)

RichardJenkins (1362463) | more than 5 years ago | (#26789905)

If the future of MySQL lay in community developer contributions - why bother contributing to MySQL directly? It's all (mostly) still available under the GPL. Form it, and create a community version.

Sun would never import code back into MySQL unless they owned copyright to it though.

Mr Wideanus?! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26788873)

LOL

Dare I say it? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26788947)

SUN accidentally the whole mySQL!

()

Five Questions With Rob Malda... (0, Troll)

Smidge207 (1278042) | more than 5 years ago | (#26789009)

Rob Malda is a 26-year old white male with a stocky build and a beard. His head is shaved. He responded to my ad to be interviewed for this article wearing only leather pants, leather boots and a leather vest. I could see that both of his nipples were pierced with large-gauge silver rings.

Questioner: I hope you won't be offended if I ask you to prove to me that you're a nullo. Just so that our readers will know that this isn't a fake.

Rob: Sure, no problem. (stands and unbuckles pants and drops them to his ankles, revealing a smooth, shaven crotch with only a thin scar to show where his genitals once were).

Q: Thank you. That's a remarkable sight.

(laughs and pulls pants back up). Most people think so.

Q: What made you decide to become a nullo?

(pauses). Well, it really wasn't entirely my decision.

Q: Excuse me?

The idea wasn't mine. It was my lover's idea.

Q: Please explain what you mean.

Okay, it's a long story. You have to understand my relationship with Michael before you'll know what happened.

Q: We have plenty of time. Please go on.

Both of us were into the leather lifestyle when we met through a personal ad. Michael's ad was very specific: he was looking for someone to completely dominate and modify to his pleasure. In other word, a slave.

The ad intrigued me. I had been in a number of B&D scenes and also some S&M, but I found them unsatisfying because they were all temporary. After the fun was over, everybody went on with life as usual.

I was looking for a complete life change. I wanted to meet someone who would be part of my life forever. Someone who would control me and change me at his whim.

Q: In other words, you're a true masochist.

Oh yes, no doubt about that. I've always been totally passive in my sexual relationships.

Anyway, we met and there was instant chemistry. Michael is a few years older than me and very good looking. Our personalities meshed totally. He's very dominant.

I went back to his place after drinks and had the best sex of my life. That's when I knew I was going to be with Michael for a long, long time.

Q: What sort of things did you two do?

It was very heavy right away. He restrained me and whipped me for quite awhile. He put clamps on my nipples and a ball gag in my mouth. And he hung a ball bag on my sack with some very heavy weights. That bag really bounced around when Michael fucked me from behind.

Q: Ouch.

(laughs) Yeah, no kidding. At first I didn't think I could take the pain, but Michael worked me through it and after awhile I was flying. I was sorry when it was over.

Michael enjoyed it as much as I did. Afterwards he talked about what kind of a commitment I'd have to make if I wanted to stay with him.

Q: What did he say exactly?

Well, besides agreeing to be his slave in every way, I'd have to be ready to be modified. To have my body modified.

Q: Did he explain what he meant by that?

Not specifically, but I got the general idea. I guessed that something like castration might be part of it.

Q: How did that make you feel?

(laughs) I think it would make any guy a little hesitant.

Q: But it didn't stop you from agreeing to Michael's terms?

No it didn't. I was totally hooked on this man. I knew that I was willing to pay any price to be with him.

Anyway, a few days later I moved in with Michael. He gave me the rules right away: I'd have to be naked at all times while we were indoors, except for a leather dog collar that I could never take off. I had to keep my head shaved. And I had to wear a butt plug except when I needed to take a shit or when we were having sex.

I had to sleep on the floor next to his bed. I ate all my food on the floor, too.

The next day he took me to a piercing parlor where he had my nipples done, and a Prince Albert put into the head of my cock.

Q: Heavy stuff.

Yeah, and it got heavier. He used me as a toilet, pissing in my mouth. I had to lick his asshole clean after he took a shit, too. It was all part of a process to break down any sense of individuality I had. After awhile, I wouldn't hesitate to do anything he asked.

Q: Did the sex get rougher?

Oh God, yeah. He started fisting me every time we had sex. But he really started concentrating on my cock and balls, working them over for hours at a time.

He put pins into the head of my cock and into my sack. He attached clothespins up and down my cock and around my sack. The pain was pretty bad. He had to gag me to keep me from screaming.

Q: When did the idea of nullification come up?

Well, it wasn't nullification at first. He started talking about how I needed to make a greater commitment to him, to do something to show that I was dedicated to him for life.

When I asked him what he meant, he said that he wanted to take my balls.

Q: How did you respond?

Not very well at first. I told him that I liked being a man and didn't want to become a eunuch. But he kept at me, and wore me down. He reminded me that I agreed to be modified according to his wishes, and this is what he wanted for me. Anything less would show that I wasn't really committed to the relationship. And besides, I was a total bottom and didn't really need my balls.

It took about a week before I agreed to be castrated. But I wasn't happy about it, believe me.

Q: How did he castrate you?

Michael had a friend who was into the eunuch scene. One night he came over with his bag of toys, and Michael told me that this was it. I was gonna lose my nuts then and there.

Q: Did you think of resisting?

I did for a minute, but deep down I knew there was no way. I just didn't want to lose Michael. I'd rather lose my balls.

Michael's friend restrained me on the living room floor while Michael videotaped us. He used an elastrator to put a band around my sack.

Q: That must have really hurt.

Hell yeah. It's liked getting kicked in the balls over and over again. I screamed for him to cut the band off, but he just kept on going, putting more bands on me. I had four bands around my sack when he finished.

I was rolling around on the floor screaming, while Michael just videotaped me. Eventually, my sack got numb and the pain subsided. I looked between my legs and could see my sack was a dark purple. I knew my balls were dying inside.

Michael and his friend left the room and turned out the light. I lay there for hours, crying because I was turning into a eunuch and there wasn't anything I could do about it.

Q: What happened then?

Eventually I fell asleep from exhaustion. Then the light switched on and I could see Michael's friend kneeling between my legs, touching my sack. I heard him tell Michael that my balls were dead.

Q: How did Michael react?

Very pleased. He bent down and felt around my sack. He said that it felt cold.

Michael's friend told me that I needed to keep the bands on. He said that eventually my balls and sack would dry up and fall off. I just nodded. What else could I do at that point?

Q: Did it happen just like Michael's friend said?

Yeah, a week or so later my package just fell off. Michael put it in a jar of alcohol to preserve it. It's on the table next to his bed.

Q: How did things go after that?

Michael was really loving to me. He kept saying how proud he was of me, how grateful that I had made the commitment to him. He even let me sleep in his bed.

Q: What about the sex?

We waited awhile after my castration, and then took it easy until I was completely healed. At first I was able to get hard, but as the weeks went by my erections began to disappear.

That pleased Michael. He liked fucking me and feeling my limp cock. It made his dominance over me even greater.

Q: When did he start talking about making you a nullo?

A couple of months after he took my nuts. Our sex had gotten to be just as rough as before the castration. He really got off on torturing my cock. Then he started saying stuff like, "Why do you even need this anymore?"

That freaked me out. I always thought that he might someday take my balls, but I never imagined that he'd go all the way. I told him that I wanted to keep my dick.

Q: How did he react to that?

At first he didn't say much. But he kept pushing. Michael said I would look so nice being smooth between my legs. He said my dick was small and never got hard anymore, so what was the point of having it.

But I still resisted. I wanted to keep my cock. I felt like I wouldn't be a man anymore without it.

Q: So how did he get you to agree?

He didn't. He took it against my will.

Q: How did that happen?

We were having sex in the basement, and I was tied up and bent over this wooden bench as he fucked me. Then I heard the doorbell ring. Michael answered it, and he brought this guy into the room.

At first I couldn't see anything because of the way I was tied. But then I felt these hands lift me up and put me on my back. And I could see it was Michael's friend, the guy who took my nuts.

Q: How did you react?

I started screaming and crying, but the guy just gagged me. The two of them dragged me to the other side of the room where they tied me spread eagled on the floor.

Michael's friend snaked a catheter up my dick, and gave me a shot to numb my crotch. I was grateful for that, at least. I remember how bad it hurt to lose my balls.

Q: What was Michael doing at this time?

He was kneeling next to me talking quietly. He said I'd be happy that they were doing this. That it would make our relationship better. That kind of calmed me down. I thought, "Well, maybe it won't be so bad."

Q: How long did the penectomy take?

It took awhile. Some of the penis is inside the body, so he had to dig inside to get all of it. There was a lot of stitching up and stuff. He put my cock in the same jar with my balls. You can even see the Prince Albert sticking out of the head.

Then they made me a new pisshole. It's between my asshole and where my sack used to be. So now I have to squat to piss.

Q: What has life been like since you were nullified?

After I got over the surgery and my anger, things got better. When I healed up, I began to like my smooth look. Michael brought friends over and they all admired it, saying how pretty I looked. It made me feel good that Michael was proud of me.

Q: Do you have any sexual feeling anymore?

Yes, my prostate still responds when Michael fucks me or uses the buttplug. And my nipples are quite sensitive. If Michael plays with them while fucking me, I have a kind of orgasm. It's hard to describe, but it's definitely an orgasm.

Sometimes Michael says he's gonna have my prostate and nipples removed, but he's just kidding around. He's happy with what he's done to me.

Q: So are you glad Michael had you nullified?

Well, I wouldn't say I'm glad. If I could, I'd like to have my cock and balls back. But I know that I'm a nullo forever. So I'm making the best of it.

Michael and I are very happy. I know that he'll take care of me and we'll be together always. I guess losing my manhood was worth it to make that happen for us.

=Smidge=

Re:Five Questions With Rob Malda... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26789235)

I'm not sure what this has to do with Michael Wideanus...maybe you could enlighten us?

Re:Five Questions With Rob Malda... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26789501)

I'm not sure what this has to do with Michael Wideanus...maybe you could enlighten us?

It relates to Michael Wideanus because it's referring to your being a nullo, with a wide anus.

Re:Five Questions With Rob Malda... (0)

Red Flayer (890720) | more than 5 years ago | (#26789329)

That's a hell of a lot more than five questions, you twit.

Learn to count.

English is Author's Second Language? (0)

twmcneil (942300) | more than 5 years ago | (#26789283)

Am I being picky today or is English the author's second language?

Re:English is Author's Second Language? (3, Informative)

Precision (1410) | more than 5 years ago | (#26789591)

Am I being picky today or is English the author's second language?

Yes it is, iirc he's from Finland.

Re:English is Author's Second Language? (1)

grouchyDude (322842) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790783)

Not a good enough excuse for a pointless article with little information. Hardly seems to justify promotion to the front page.

Re:English is Author's Second Language? (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26791217)

And IIRC his first language is swedish.

Finland? (1)

Dr. Cody (554864) | more than 5 years ago | (#26796445)

I though he was from Christmas Island.

Oh, wait...

Re:English is Author's Second Language? (0)

Hordeking (1237940) | more than 5 years ago | (#26789645)

Am I being picky today or is English the author's second language?

You're being picky.

Good he could sacrifice a good 30 seconds (4, Insightful)

ergo98 (9391) | more than 5 years ago | (#26789545)

My question to him would be "Why? Why send so many naive and misled followers back to Microsoft Access level technology and choices when we should have taken those lessons and moved forward?" MySQL, like PHP, is one of those mistake technologies that thrived despite itself, and when you go to the root of it you find someone saying "I knew nothing about the technology, but just started building from scratch, re-making the mistakes every other product made 20 years earlier".

Re:Good he could sacrifice a good 30 seconds (2, Interesting)

kilodelta (843627) | more than 5 years ago | (#26789815)

I'm not sure I agree with you at all. LAMP has its place. Put it this way, I've administered MS-SQL, Oracle and MySQL databases, I'll take MySQL any day.

Re:Good he could sacrifice a good 30 seconds (1)

ergo98 (9391) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790181)

I'm not sure I agree with you at all. LAMP has its place.

I said nothing about Linux or Apache. LA certainly has its place, though if you look back in the early years of Linux -- remember back when you had to go through a bunch of kernel make files and hand edit all of your driver settings and so on -- there was the same sort of attempt to make lemonade out of lemons that we've seen with MySQL's multi-year mistake. At the time you had to actually compile every driver into the kernel, and this was heralded as a model of efficiency and custom suited kernels, and so on. Then it gained the loadable driver ability, and that farce was quickly discarded. We've seen the same thing with MySQL, where as it finally gains functionality that competitors have had for decades, we're finally hearing the end of the ridiculous "But it's *good* that it has laughable integrity" arguments.

Put it this way, I've administered MS-SQL, Oracle and MySQL databases, I'll take MySQL any day.

Well since you put it that way...

Re:Good he could sacrifice a good 30 seconds (5, Insightful)

musicmaker (30469) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790445)

Two words: Explain Plan
Three More: Share nothing cluster
A date: '00-00-0000 00:00'
Two More: Silent truncation
One acronym: MVCC
Result: Nobody in their right mind uses MySQL.

LAMP has it's place, it's at the bottom of a trash heap. Ever tried to write business objects in PHP? What about dependency injection? Database abstraction? (let's face it PDO is a joke). Hell even prepared statements are a pain in PHP/MySQL (only exist in mysqli, and the implementation is horrible). AOP? You can't even do connection pooling for goodness sake because they turned it off in mysqli, and you need your head read if you are using the regular mysql libraries where the solution to injection attacks is to escape quotes and pray. Do you know how long it takes PHP to parse 80,000 lines of libraries every time a script runs because there is no persistence between requests, so PHP has to parse everything over for each request.

MySQL where foreign keys are silently ignored if you forgot to set your table engine to InnoDB. Where aggregates don't work right, where self referencing updates don't work, so you have to write a program to do what other RDBMSes can do in a single statement. Where your table names are case sensitive, but your text matches aren't.
Where you don't have sequences to generate globally unique ids, where bit fields work like a boolean half the time and char half the time. Where mysqldump locks half your database and doesn't get everything by default which you find out too late because you didn't know any better.

Apache where the recommended default for MaxClients is 256, which anybody with a clue knows is insane for dynamic websites, but most sysadmins put in anyway. PHP that hasn't been bothered to update itself to work with a threaded Apache that has been around for a decade.

I could go on for ages and ages on this stuff. I mean there are SO many issues with LAMP, it's a minefield. LAMP fails when you need it most, when traffic starts getting heavy.

OR

you could use a system that separates components into libraries and interfaces, allows you to modularize, allows database independence, makes testing easy, has static typing so the compiler can catch 80% of problems before they ever get executed. Has AOP, has IOC that isn't insane and is used by more enterprise shops that anything else.

Re:Good he could sacrifice a good 30 seconds (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26790943)

Well, you left me hanging... what's the name of the system after the "OR"...

A curious mind wants to know.

Re:Good he could sacrifice a good 30 seconds (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26791243)

Do you know how long it takes PHP to parse 80,000 lines of libraries every time a script runs because there is no persistence between requests, so PHP has to parse everything over for each request.

This is false, you can cache the opcodes.

I could go on for ages and ages on this stuff. I mean there are SO many issues with LAMP, it's a minefield. LAMP fails when you need it most, when traffic starts getting heavy.

No, the engineers building the system fail. LAMP works perfectly well for my (very large) company.

Granted, I hate PHP, and very much dislike MySQL, but they aren't billed as "enterprise" solutions, and for good reason.

Nice Java troll, though. (I'm assuming Java because last I checked .NET didn't do Aspects very well)

Re:Good he could sacrifice a good 30 seconds (4, Insightful)

sarkeizen (106737) | more than 5 years ago | (#26792995)

There's lots of comment that could be made about that diatribe too.

First off I'd say that some of this criticism is "Well it doesn't have *buzzword*" mixed with a few statements you are likely not in a position to argue along with a number of things you got wrong enough to betray some ignorance of the subject you are criticizing and at least one instance of "Well the default config doesn't suit what I'm doing". The fact that you have to reach all the way down to that makes me question the "I could go on for ages" bit.

Considering that you appear to have completely stupid amounts of emotion invested in your particular choice of tools I won't really bother arguing them all.

One that you mention twice is database abstraction. Personally I'd call DA a double-edged sword. Sure PDO doesn't achieve the level of abstraction that lots of frameworks do (but one might argue that it's not a framework so...) but at least if I hire someone who writes PHP I know they can write a simple join in SQL. I've met huge numbers of people - from professional developers to university students - so mentally locked into a platform that they couldn't do this.

As an aside one thing I will say about the developers I tend to hire is that they have to show proficiency in writing code in a few different languages and perhaps some aptitude in writing code in a language they've never seen before. One thing I find this cuts down on is the amount of time they spend complaining about language X lacking feature-they-love Y which tends to get in the way of doing actual development.

Re:Good he could sacrifice a good 30 seconds (2, Informative)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 5 years ago | (#26793133)

I could go on for ages and ages on this stuff.

You could, but it would be a big fat waste of time, because thousands of people would still use LAMPs for the simple fact that the software costs nothing so hosting is readily available, and there are tons of working content management systems available for free to run on top of them, and by the way numerous commercial sites are doing brisk business with them. So what if they don't fit the needs of HP or Xerox?

Most of your complaints are about defaults. That's dumb. I mean, the defaults are dumb, but you're still a whiner.

Re:Good he could sacrifice a good 30 seconds (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26795175)

You seem to be blaming a set of tools for your poor development skills. Not a very good argument.

Got it: if you're incompetent, don't use MySQL (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26795565)

Your comment comes down to saying that if you're incompetent you shouldn't be writing applications with MySQL. Big surprise. Not. You should be fired instead.

Re:Good he could sacrifice a good 30 seconds (1)

Tuntematon (827980) | more than 5 years ago | (#26795717)

Ever tried to write business objects in PHP? What about dependency injection? Database abstraction? (let's face it PDO is a joke). Hell even prepared statements are a pain in PHP/MySQL (only exist in mysqli, and the implementation is horrible). AOP?

I don't even know what the these terms mean so it must mean I can still use MySQL and it has a place after all?

Re:Good he could sacrifice a good 30 seconds (1)

Slashdot Parent (995749) | more than 5 years ago | (#26797799)

you could use a system that separates components into libraries and interfaces, allows you to modularize, allows database independence, makes testing easy, has static typing so the compiler can catch 80% of problems before they ever get executed. Has AOP, has IOC that isn't insane and is used by more enterprise shops that anything else.

I'm curious on this one. When is the last time you swapped out one database for another?

Also, can you name a few good uses for AOP other than trace-level logging and security? I'm not trolling, I just really wish I knew the answer and I've been asking everyone who sounded like they could give one to me.

Re:Good he could sacrifice a good 30 seconds (1)

Simetrical (1047518) | more than 5 years ago | (#26806905)

Where mysqldump locks half your database

FWIW, if you use it with InnoDB (and almost any serious MySQL shop uses InnoDB exclusively), mysqldump --single-transaction is lockless.

Re:Good he could sacrifice a good 30 seconds (1)

crucini (98210) | more than 5 years ago | (#26863965)

...and almost any serious MySQL shop uses InnoDB exclusively...

I work at a pretty serious MySQL user, and we use both MyIsam and InnoDB. Properly tuned and used, Isam is faster. Innodb allegedly has the edge in PK-lookups, but my measurements disagree.

Innodb is good if you want Oracle-ish features. Mostly we don't. In fact, the current is flowing the other way; towards things even leaner than MySQL.

We mysqldump the slave, which eliminates that issue. (You can also stop the slave and cp the db files; I think this does not work with Inno). Table locks remain a serious performance issue in Isam; it does take extra effort to prevent lock contention.

Re:Good he could sacrifice a good 30 seconds (1)

Simetrical (1047518) | more than 5 years ago | (#26864087)

I work at a pretty serious MySQL user, and we use both MyIsam and InnoDB. Properly tuned and used, Isam is faster. Innodb allegedly has the edge in PK-lookups, but my measurements disagree.

InnoDB also doesn't have to be repaired or checked. MyISAM tables can crash on occasion if you look at them funny, and then you have to spend an inordinate amount of time repairing the tables (possibly days for large data sets). InnoDB supports data clustering, which is extremely useful for disk-bound data sets. And table-level locking in MyISAM is prohibitive for most serious workloads, unless either there are no writes (other than end-of-table inserts) or all of your queries are fast.

I'm curious: how large are the tables at your shop, and how many reads/writes per second do you have? I know that Wikipedia, for instance, would melt if you tried using MyISAM anywhere, and it's no more than a mid-sized MySQL user as far as its database size goes.

We mysqldump the slave, which eliminates that issue. (You can also stop the slave and cp the db files; I think this does not work with Inno).

It does, in my experience (with the usual version-mismatch caveats), but only if you copy the entire MySQL data directory. Some essential parts of the InnoDB data files are shared across all tables and can't be split out by simple filesystem commands.

Re:Good he could sacrifice a good 30 seconds (1)

DragonWriter (970822) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790965)

Put it this way, I've administered MS-SQL, Oracle and MySQL databases, I'll take MySQL any day.

Perhaps, but what about PostgreSQL?

Re:Good he could sacrifice a good 30 seconds (1)

kilodelta (843627) | more than 5 years ago | (#26792105)

Never dealt with PostgreSQL. Did dabble a bit with DB2 though.

Re:Good he could sacrifice a good 30 seconds (1)

sarkeizen (106737) | more than 5 years ago | (#26793331)

We have exactly one production Postgres DB in our environment and we will migrate it to MySQL soon. There's a few things that are drivers to this:

i) DB support on Linux apps - if it runs on Linux it tends to support MySQL but not necessarily postgres (one app I recall running into with this difficulty was wordpress). Because of this the more Linux apps you run, the more you are likely to run a MySQL db which means that even if you standardize on Postgres you will probably break that standard frequently.

ii) Clustering: The landscape may have changed today but at the time we were trying to get a DB cluster running for failover and performance and although MySQL was ram based it was still better than just about every Postgres solution we looked at.

iii) MySQL isn't as bad as people think: Most of the time I hear complaints about MySQL they are things like "It isn't ACID compliant". Which is like 'Welcome to four years ago buddy!'. I'm not about to argue that MySQL is equivalent in every respect to Oracle but that for a wide variety of enterprise applications MySQL is sufficient. So much so that a lot of shops might do well do standardize on MySQL and drag Oracle out for that application that can't be moved to anything else.

Mind you I would like to migrate our MSSQL apps to MySQL as well but there we have the added driver of cost. Not only is the server expensive but clustering seems to, without exception require special more expensive versions of SqlServer and Windows Server. Because of that we are currently using a block-level replication solution for failover and during one of our fire-drill tests the DB was corrupted.
   

Re:Good he could sacrifice a good 30 seconds (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26796743)

Can anyone explain how to script backups of dbs that table type, a db with another type, and a db with mixed types

Re:Good he could sacrifice a good 30 seconds (1)

anomalous cohort (704239) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790623)

Killing MySql won't send people to MS-Access. It is PostGreSql (which was Sun's original favorite OSS RDMS) that stands to benefit from the death of MySql. I had predicted this [blogspot.com] a year ago.

Re:Good he could sacrifice a good 30 seconds (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26792009)

This was Sun's plan all along! Spend a billion dollars to kill MySQL and get back to the real database, PostgreSQL! We should be thanking Sun!

Re:Good he could sacrifice a good 30 seconds (1)

toby (759) | more than 5 years ago | (#26797601)

Why ask Monty? Why not ask every major web player on the planet why they choose 'Microsoft Access level technology'.

You might find yourself laughed out of the room (as Microsoft would be, if they tried to sell Access to Google, Yahoo, Flickr, Slashdot, imdb, SABRE, YouTube, Wikipedia, NASA, US Census, ... and most major MySQL users).

http://mysql.com/why-mysql/case-studies/ [mysql.com]
http://mysql.com/customers/ [mysql.com]

Re:Good he could sacrifice a good 30 seconds (1)

ergo98 (9391) | more than 5 years ago | (#26798757)

Why ask Monty? Why not ask every major web player on the planet why they choose 'Microsoft Access level technology'.

You realize that MySQL wasn't invented yesterday, right? That it has plied its course for some 14 years now.

For about the first 7 of those, it was absolutely horrific, chosen only by idiots who had absolutely no idea what they're doing. Since then, sure it has started to gain features that every other RDBMS vendor has had long before, with each step the naive userbase suddenly coming into realization of what they were missing, finally abandoning the hilarious rhetoric they'd been spouting online since.

Though it's funny that now we're doing it all again with products like CouchDB. I laughed when I watched the video of the Damien guy where he professes to having started with no idea about databases, but why let them stop him? The history of MySQL follows the same sad tale. In both cases, people afraid of real databases just clutch onto their talking points and rhetoric and tell us that their super ridiculous chosen technology is somehow superior in its inferiority.

Question: What is #4? (0)

PPH (736903) | more than 5 years ago | (#26789557)

We know that #5 is "Profit!"

Five Questions... (2, Informative)

RayMarron (657336) | more than 5 years ago | (#26789647)

...three of which were answered "See my blog". Article rated -1 uninformative.

Re:Five Questions... (2, Interesting)

quickOnTheUptake (1450889) | more than 5 years ago | (#26789821)

I got the distinct feeling he was kinda fed up with the interviewer.
I liked the "I just answered that." It takes real skill to get someone to answer like that in a short non-controversial interview.

Re:Five Questions... (1)

Dynedain (141758) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790273)

I disagree. His "I just answered that" response was referring the interviewer/reader to the previous question, to which his answer was basically "Read my blog".

The blog link is a post to a mostly-empty, non-informative wiki. If you aren't going to answer the questions, don't take the interview. This was just a cop-out of "I'm to lazy to explain things to you, figure it out yourself" which is a horrible stance to take when you're trying to launch a new venture and gain interest.

Re:Five Questions... (1)

musicmaker (30469) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790531)

It's yet another demonstration of the professionalism of the MySQL people. Maybe Sun can introduce some level of seriousness about software to MySQL. Oh wait - those are the people that gave us Java; nevermind.

Re:Five Questions... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26791035)

I really doubt that this was a face-to-face interview. My guess is that the five questions were e-mailed to him all at the same time.

No URL in your comment... (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 5 years ago | (#26793115)

...even though it's about "See my blog." Your comment is -1 uninformative.

Re:No URL in your comment... (1)

RayMarron (657336) | more than 5 years ago | (#26796859)

The URL is present in the FA. I'm simply normalizing the comment data.

Michael (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26789729)

Question 1: How wide is your anus
Question 2: Is it true that you're the goatse man?
???
Profit

Is it me... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26789739)

Or did that page just get /.'ed...can't seem to load it.

MyStinkQL (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26790481)

I'm not under a rock or new to open source and yet I still don't want to run MySQL.

before open source? (1)

sl0ppy (454532) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790581)

David Axmark (the second founder of MySQL) and I released it 'open source like' (this was before open source) in 1995

i think that several [free-soft.org] people [google.com] would disagree with that.

mySQL was seen at the time as an answer to mSQL [wikipedia.org] , which was non-free, even to the point of sharing a very similar API.

funny how times and history change.

Re:before open source? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26904043)

Duh open source vs Free Software duh.

Open source is commonly accepted as coming into being when Netscape freed Mozilla (~1998). Free Software has existed for ages it's true.

How about you read some history, and some definitions.

Screw microsoft! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26791171)

amirite?

What's the next big DB? (1)

EmperorOfCanada (1332175) | more than 5 years ago | (#26792085)

Obviously not an emergency, but what is going to be the next big DB? Obviously SUN is going to screw up MySQL sooner or later (if not a bit already). I really don't want to develop for the next few years without knowing what DB I am going to end up switching to. Will PG reemerge from its slumber? Will someone fork or branch MySQL? Will SUN go under and MySQL break free (1 billion $ later)? Firebird looks vaguely interesting. So my question would be: If your boss was allergic to MySQL what would your next choice be? My next question is: How will SUN screw up MySQL? Java based trigger language, Build up of annoying bugs, Proprietary high cost "Enterprise" version with critical features, A "rebuild" that completely ruins the whole thing, A tacky marketing program that makes people embarrassed to say MySQL, A new name that costs 3 million or more. Pointless features that support some other SUN marketing effort, ... and my favorite ... Neglect.

Re:What's the next big DB? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26792637)

"what is going to be the next big DB?"

The next open source big DB, I think you meant.

Well, of course PostgreSQL, as it has always been (if only it were distributed under GPL instead of BSD...)

Re:What's the next big DB? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26841817)

> if only it were distributed under GPL instead of BSD...)

Huh?

Re:What's the next big DB? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26792801)

What's the next big DB?

CouchDB [apache.org] .

with its RESTful interface, its map/reduce functionality, its ability to scale huge, and its simplicity of replication, i'd have to say CouchDB in a heartbeat. especially as data gets bigger, and data warehousing becomes more important.

of course, this also means moving more of the software and business logic into the database, and that's the opposite direction of mySQL.

product (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26794395)

with 2 sides
commercial OR
functional
it's totally different

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