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Bruce Perens On Combining GPL and Proprietary Software

ScuttleMonkey posted more than 5 years ago | from the how-not-to-get-sued dept.

Software 218

jammag writes "Combining GPL and proprietary software is ever more common, especially in the world of embedded devices like cell phones. But the question is: how to combine them legally. As sticky as the issue is, there is an answer, as self titled "open source strategic consultant" Bruce Perens explains. The proper procedure entails fully understanding what type of open source software you're using, and knowing why you need to combine these disparate licenses. The problem, he notes, is that many companies don't know or care about doing this legally. 'They're used to just "clicking yes" with no regard to what they're committing themselves and their company to.' Hopefully Perens' guide can be read by more company execs — resulting in fewer lawsuits going forward (but we're not holding our breath)." update 21:31 GMT by SM: Bruce wrote in to make sure we knew he was not a lawyer, even though he is weighing in on a legal issue; updated to reflect.

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when nuns attack (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26790019)

Little is known that the new president of the united states of america, Barak Hussein Abdalla Adama, is in fact a muslim.

Re:when nuns attack (-1, Offtopic)

Hordeking (1237940) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790287)

Little is known that the new president of the united states of america, Barak Hussein Abdalla Adama, is in fact a muslim.

Our president was the leader of the refugees from Battlestar Galactica? Who knew!

Re:when nuns attack (0, Offtopic)

moniker127 (1290002) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790549)

Adama would be an awesome president!

Re:when nuns attack (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26790787)

Only if someone ressurects Lorne Green from the dead.

Re:when nuns attack (2, Funny)

CarpetShark (865376) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790959)

That would be a zombie president. I thought we just tried that.

GPL is fucking DRM in disquise (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26790619)

Run, run for your life you fucking nuns. Oh, wait.

Re:when nuns attack (1)

CarpetShark (865376) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790857)

Adama, is in fact a muslim.

You must have meant cylon.

Hi (5, Informative)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790027)

I'm here at my desk, if anyone has questions :-)

Bruce

Re:Hi (2, Interesting)

starling (26204) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790059)

Any comments about the applicability of the LGPL? It used to be very popular in embedded systems.

Re:Hi (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26790095)

Linux just isn't ready for the desktop yet. It may be ready for the web servers that you nerds use to distribute your TRON fanzines and personal Dungeons and Dragons web-sights across the world wide web, but the average computer user isn't going to spend months learning how to use a CLI and then hours compiling packages so that they can get a workable graphic interface to check their mail with, especially not when they already have a Windows machine that does its job perfectly well and is backed by a major corporation, as opposed to Linux which is only supported by a few unemployed nerds living in their mother's basement somewhere. The last thing I want is a level 5 dwarf (haha) providing me my OS.

Re:Hi (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26790161)

Are you saying that this linux can run on a computer without windows underneath it, at all ? As in, without a boot disk, without any drivers, and without any services ?

That sounds preposterous to me.

If it were true (and I doubt it), then companies would be selling computers without a windows. This clearly is not happening, so there must be some error in your calculations. I hope you realise that windows is more than just Office ? Its a whole system that runs the computer from start to finish, and that is a very difficult thing to acheive. A lot of people dont realise this.

Microsoft just spent $9 billion and many years to create Vista, so it does not sound reasonable that some new alternative could just snap into existence overnight like that. It would take billions of dollars and a massive effort to achieve. IBM tried, and spent a huge amount of money developing OS/2 but could never keep up with Windows. Apple tried to create their own system for years, but finally gave up recently and moved to Intel and Microsoft.

Its just not possible that a freeware like the Linux could be extended to the point where it runs the entire computer fron start to finish, without using some of the more critical parts of windows. Not possible.

I think you need to re-examine your assumptions.

Re:Hi (1)

dgatwood (11270) | more than 5 years ago | (#26791075)

Darl, is that you?

Re:Hi (1)

von_rick (944421) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790225)

This isn't about Linux on desktop. Its about combining Linux and proprietary 3rd party apps that include a clause about owning your left ventricle and such. These days you are more likely to find Linux on embedded devices than on desktops. When you are searching for a media player for your internet tablet, should you go for a 3rd party app like Canola or should you stick with Mplayer, those are the choices one faces when running Linux based devices.

Re:Hi (5, Informative)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790237)

Any comments about the applicability of the LGPL? It used to be very popular in embedded systems.

LGPL, especially the current LGPL3, is a good license to use when you want people to combine your work with proprietary software, and software with incompatible licenses in general. Sometimes you don't want this. My latest (unannounced) product is dual-licensed, so I need a "modifications must be free software" license like GPL or GPL3, so that the proprietary folks have an incentive to buy a commercial license. That way, I get to provide Free Software to folks who want to make Free Software with it, and commercial license fees from the folks who don't want to make Free Software pay for me to do it.

Bruce

Re:Hi (1)

starling (26204) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790293)

Fair enough, that's the way I understand the trade-offs too. I was just a little surprised to see no mention of the LGPL in your article and wondered if it was part of a sinister plot to deprecate the licence.

Re:Hi (2, Informative)

morgan_greywolf (835522) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790401)

Bruce was actually one of the most vocal advocates of the LGPL license back when he initiated the UserLinux project [wikipedia.org] . The main reason UserLinux had picked GNOME and GTK as the primary desktop and GUI toolkit for UserLinux revolved around GTK's LGPL license (Qt was not available under this license at the time)

Re:Hi (1)

starling (26204) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790457)

I remember the Qt fun and games, yes. The LGPL will always be the *Library* GPL to me.

Re:Hi (1)

tchuladdiass (174342) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790365)

What about when you want your software to be combined with other Free / Open Source software (even code that may be incompatible with the GPL), but don't want to leave the door wide open to non-Free software? Would the GPL-with-exceptions license work?

Re:Hi (1)

RoccamOccam (953524) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790789)

On you latest product, how will the modifications that are provided back to you by the GPL folk handled? Are they then made available to the commercial users for a fee? Or would you expect them to be made available with the same type of dual-license and they would get some of the revenue? That doesn't seem feasible, but the alternative doesn't seem fair, either.

Dual licensing is good (3, Interesting)

EmbeddedJanitor (597831) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790967)

We use dual licensing too: GPL2 or get a commercial license if you want to use it in non-GPL environments.

While the GPL purists might balk at this, it does make the product usable elsewhere (more usage == more testing == good for everyone) and also provides a revenue stream to help further development (good for everyone).

Being practical is far more important than being purist.

Re:Hi (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26790061)

are you really that desperate and lonely that you'll actually sit at your desk and wait for questions from the slashtards?

Re:Hi (4, Funny)

CRCulver (715279) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790089)

Impostor. A true Bruce Perens would not have a Slashdot user ID as absurdly high as 3872.

Re:Hi (1)

morgan_greywolf (835522) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790431)

Uh, no, that really is Bruce Perens.

Re:Hi (1)

Who Is The Drizzle (1470385) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790639)

I'm pretty sure GP was being sarcastic...

Re:Hi (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26790993)

*whoosh*

Re:Hi (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26791057)

Uh, no, that really is Bruce Perens.

It's comments such as this that are the reason I pray every night for a mod choice of "Idiot". God never follows through, though :(

Re:Hi (1)

hobbit (5915) | more than 5 years ago | (#26791151)

Impostor. The true morgan_greywolf would not have said something as inanely stupid as that.

Re:Hi (2, Informative)

osu-neko (2604) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790755)

A lot of us read /. for quite a while before deciding to actually sign up...

Re:Hi (1)

alexborges (313924) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790803)

... and regret it every minute of our lives...

There, fixed it for ya.

Re:Hi (1)

hobbit (5915) | more than 5 years ago | (#26791179)

You were a bit keen!

Re:Hi (4, Informative)

Greyfox (87712) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790949)

Early on a lot of us were quite happy posting as Anonymous Cowards and only made user IDs so we could filter Jon "Columbine" Katz out. If Bruce's snapping point was after the second or third story and mine was only after that fucker managed to draw a parallel between a video game and the tragedy at Columbine, it would explain both why his user ID is so high and why mine is that much higher.

Eventually Jon Katz stories were found to be against the Geneva Convention, which is why there is no longer an option to filter him out. It's actually illegal to post a Jon Katz story now. They were going to use them at Gitmo for a while, but Dick decided that was a little too evil. They went with shocking guys' junk with jumper cables instead.

Re:Hi (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26790101)

I'm here at my desk, if anyone has questions :-)

Bruce

How would you respond to this: I'll cut you!

Re:Hi (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26790125)

I have a question - why hasn't Roland Piquepaille posted anything on his blog lately? I'm starting to get worried.

Re:Hi (1)

dkleinsc (563838) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790283)

Here's my question: how the heck do you get modded Informative +2 for just posting that you're here?

(Just kidding, Bruce. I'm glad you show up here)

Re:Hi (1, Funny)

.Bruce Perens (150539) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790799)

Thank you for your support. In answer to your question, though it was undoubtedly facetious, let's just say that I have a special working relationship with several of the moderators. You could, too, if you meet certain criteria. Please email me some code samples and a few pictures of yourself, preferably pictures of you at your computer. Don't be embarrassed if the only pictures you have of yourself are without any clothing, that's fine by me. I'll consider your potential and email you or IM you back. No creeps or minorities, please.

Header files (3, Interesting)

hobbit (5915) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790291)

Can you #include header files from GPLed code in proprietary code?

Re:Header files (1)

Entrope (68843) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790649)

Can you #include header files from GPLed code in proprietary code?

Of course you can. The question is: What happens next? If you want to distribute the proprietary code (in either source or binary format), you have to evaluate whether the use of the header file -- and in particular the contents of the header file -- makes the proprietary code subject to the GPL. If you want to rely on the answer in court, you had better have a qualified lawyer make that evaluation, and such a lawyer is likely to tell you that it's simpler and easier to just assume the GPL covers your wanted-to-be-proprietary code.

Re:Header files (1)

hobbit (5915) | more than 5 years ago | (#26791107)

Of course you can. The question is: What happens next?

Indeed. Some might even say that question was implied from the context. To apply the same level of pedantry to your response: you don't have to evaluate anything if you want to distribute the code. Which is to say: the laws of physics do not compel you to.

Re:Header files (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26790999)

If they're just header files (function prototypes, #defines, structs, etc) then yes you can (It's not code). If it also includes inline code, stl, or #define macros) which are compiled, then no you can't.

Disclaimer: GPL only covers (re)distribution, so it doesn't matter if it's strictly for personal/company use.

Malice or stupidity? (2, Interesting)

JustinOpinion (1246824) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790299)

They're used to just "clicking yes" with no regard to what they're committing themselves and their company to.

This is a very subjective question for you to answer (so feel free to say "I'd rather not speculate"), but my question is: When these companies disregard the license, is their primary reason for doing so stupidity or malice? Is it usually because someone mistakenly thinks "hey, this is available online so I can do whatever I want with it" or is it more along the lines of "no one will ever catch me, so I'm just going to grab this code."

In any case, thanks for all your hard work for the community!

Re:Malice or stupidity? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26790499)

When these companies disregard the license, is their primary reason for doing so stupidity or malice? Is it usually because someone mistakenly thinks "hey, this is available online so I can do whatever I want with it" or is it more along the lines of "no one will ever catch me, so I'm just going to grab this code."

Yes.

Re:Hi (1)

Ukab the Great (87152) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790463)

Given that software may be linked an infinite number of ways from an infinite number of sources, and given that software may be marketed an infinite number of ways depending on how it's linked, would you like a piece of toast?

The silly multi-processor workaround (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26790603)

(AC because I work on what I'm talking about, and this problem hampers me continuously, at my current job and all previous).

I am dismayed that this is a possible loop-hole to the GPL. There is a very real examples of this today: the T-Mobile G1, and its slightly-unlocked Developer handset counterpart.

The trouble is, these devices are completely unusable without the binary blob loaded into the other processor. A lot of the functionality is still inaccessible, and worse still the manufacturers can get away without even providing a data sheet. Even worse still - these devices can be totally locked down, signed, and remove the ability to replace the GPL parts.

It's self-reinforcing, too. The ARM9/ARM11 split (in this specific case) is an increasingly inefficient thing to do, as ARMs are very good at low latency response (FIQs), and the partition is NOT as simple as multiple processors. In the Qualcomm MSM7200 part used in the vast majority of handsets (including the G1), it's another core and they share RAM and all peripherals. There's an awkward memory partition that has to happen, and that's inefficient use of memory. There's a duplication of ARM pipelines and caches. It's not as efficient as people would have you believe.

In short, it's a bad use of hardware resources just to work-around licensing.

I hold out little hope that manufacturers will provide access to radio layers, unlock devices, and generally provide data sheets so long as the "it's on another processor" work-around is an acceptable solution. Perhaps market forces will change their mind as soon as one big player decides that the hardware cost is no longer worth it. Perhaps not.

To be honest, though, I'm slightly happier that there is the workaround and we can see GPL software in handsets, rather than nothing at all.

Are you actually happy with this solution (or only somewhat happy, like me!), or is it just a recommendation?

Re:Hi (1, Offtopic)

mangu (126918) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790695)

I'm here at my desk, if anyone has questions :-)

Do you get paid just to sit at your desk and post to Slashdot?

Or have you already worked your two hours [kenrockwell.com] today?

Re:Hi (2, Interesting)

Peaker (72084) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790713)

What constitutes derivative works of GPL'd code?

Why is it that using a code's API makes something derivative work, but using a program's CLI is non-derivative work, and even allowed to be non-GPL?

Re:Hi (1)

DragonWriter (970822) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790915)

Why is it that using a code's API makes something derivative work, but using a program's CLI is non-derivative work, and even allowed to be non-GPL?

There's a pretty good argument to be made that using a code's API or dynamically linking to a library is not generally a "derivative work", although this is pretty clearly not the FSF's view.

Re:Hi (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26791103)

Because the FSF is not ruled by logic or argument, but philosophy and believe.

Re:Hi (1)

Joe Snipe (224958) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790731)

Why do bad things happen to good people?

Two processors (2, Interesting)

Hatta (162192) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790739)

I don't understand why you need 2 processors to combine proprietary and GPL code. Anything that can be done on two processors can be done on one processor at half the speed. So obviously, you don't need 2 processors.

So maybe using 2 processors makes it easier to combine proprietary and GPL code. Why and how? Are you arguing that code that runs on processor A can not possibly be a derivative work of code that runs on processor B?

Re:Two processors (2, Insightful)

starling (26204) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790879)

Two processors are used regardless of the licence. It just makes things easier from a hardware perspective to have one processor dedicated to the phone network functions and another to the UI and assorted programs.

Re:Hi (1)

droopycom (470921) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790753)

BPINAL: Bruce Perens Is Not A Lawyer...

Thats funny you have to remind Slashdot of that. Actually its funny that everybody is always covering their ass by saying IANAL when talking about this issue.

I'm not even sure what makes anybody think that a Lawyer would have better or definitive answers than the guys who actually wrote the licenses and the software...

I'm sure the lawyers have their own language that says that whatever they are telling you might not be the truth.

Its very... frustrating... If only laws and software licenses were as simple as code...

Maybe somebody should write the licenses as a program that output 0 (cant use) or 1 (can use).

Re:Hi (1)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 5 years ago | (#26791167)

I'm sure the lawyers have their own language that says that whatever they are telling you might not be the truth.

Their lips are moving :-) Actually, I have noticed that attorneys, since their job is to win for their customer, are in the habit of saying what will win, not what is right. I pinned one down publicly, once, online. He had just said what would win the argument rather than what he knew to be true, and had assumed I would not realize. And he'd been admitted to practice before the Supreme Court.

Bruce

Re:Hi (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26790779)

Is it true that you have signed a contract to play the hero in "Goatse - The Movie"?

Re:Hi (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26791053)

you're not answering my question you lying fuck. why don't you just get the fuck out of computing and go back to being a hippy bitch? motherfuck you, you fucking lying sack of shit.

Re:Hi (1)

rigolo (416338) | more than 5 years ago | (#26791083)

I'm here at my desk, if anyone has questions :-)

Bruce

Why are you at your desk at 2AM in the morning :-)

(or maybe I should get a live too ;-0 )

Does GPL confer responsibility on the Licensor? (1)

RulerOf (975607) | more than 5 years ago | (#26791163)

This might seem like an odd question, but if I were to write an application and license it under GPL2 or 3, I recognize that my licensing of that work under GPL holds anyone who makes derivative works to contribute back and open source as well. However, who becomes responsible for the perpetuation of child source code? And, can any third parties take my code and maintain it for me without needing my consent?

Basically, is it possible to create something and license it under GPL to preserve the spirit of free software, but not be responsible for that software's freedom? I suppose that's what forking is all about... but it wasn't until recently that I considered other people might want to use my scripts too.

perens sucks esr's dick (1)

Adolf Hitroll (562418) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790029)

nt

Re:perens sucks esr's dick (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26790057)

Adolf Hitroll! It's been too long! How goes the perfume venture? [wordpress.com]

Commitments? (2, Interesting)

paulhar (652995) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790055)

> no regard to what they're committing themselves and their company

Most employees aren't legally empowered to commit their company / organisation to anything. They don't have the authority to sign contracts on behalf of the company / organisation.

Re:Commitments? (5, Insightful)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790151)

Most employees aren't legally empowered to commit their company / organisation to anything. They don't have the authority to sign contracts on behalf of the company / organisation.

Yes. But "my employee did this, and he didn't have authority to do so" hasn't worked very effectively as a defense regarding software license violation and copyright infringement - or anything else. Or those BSA audits would have turned out differently, etc. Ultimately, the stockholders and management are responsible for what the company does even if they are so out of control that their employees do stuff without being instructed to :-)

Bruce

Combing GPL and proprietary software... (-1, Offtopic)

quonsar (61695) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790063)

Is Donald Trump's comb-over open source?

Bruce Perens? Why Would Anyone Care About Him? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26790111)

Is there anyone more irrelevant and completely void of anything valuable to contribute to Slashdot who manages to get his articles posted to this site?

An "Ask Slashdot" with the goatse guy would be more enlightening to read.

Re:Bruce Perens? Why Would Anyone Care About Him? (3, Funny)

MediaStreams (1461187) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790187)

"An "Ask Slashdot" with the goatse guy would be more enlightening to read."

LOL, he certainly has had a tremendous and lasting impact on Slashdot. I would love a interview with the guy. Does he use Linux or Windows? BSD or GPL for his open source projects? We've all gotten insight into one side of him. It's long over do to learn about the other.

Re:Bruce Perens? Why Would Anyone Care About Him? (1)

gEvil (beta) (945888) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790397)

Ahhh, what a refreshing change it would be to see the "open sores" comments get marked as 'insightful' and 'informative'.

Re:Bruce Perens? Why Would Anyone Care About Him? (1)

mcgrew (92797) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790413)

It's long over do to learn about the other.

Why are you and this guy [slashdot.org] so obsessed with Donald Trump's hair?

Re:Bruce Perens? Why Would Anyone Care About Him? (1)

jellomizer (103300) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790435)

He would probably just be an ass.

Re:Bruce Perens? Why Would Anyone Care About Him? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26790525)

Must be Windows juging by the size of that backdoor

Re:Bruce Perens? Why Would Anyone Care About Him? (2, Funny)

DoofusOfDeath (636671) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790633)

LOL, he certainly has had a tremendous and lasting impact on Slashdot. I would love a interview with the guy.

If even he says that Linux is a pain in the ass to use, my advocacy days are over.

Hello, here I am! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26790997)

HI, I'm the Goatse guy, posting AC because I'm too busy to create an account. Anyway, this is my personal website [www.exet.nu] , I hope you enjoy it. I'll be glad to answer any questions you slashdotters may have about me.

Now, did anybody see my traffic cones? I can't remember where I put them!

goatse.cx guy bruce perens (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26790281)

I still can't figure out how bruce perens manages to get himself onto the front page of slashdot. I can't think of a single thing he's ever had to say of any relevance or interest.

Re:Bruce Perens? Why Would Anyone Care About Him? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26791131)

BME: When did you first realize that your ass could be the source of pleasure?
While watching porno films I saw women getting dick in their ass all the time and they seemed to like it a lot, so I thought I'd give it a try.

BME: What was it like the first time you stuck anything in your ass?

I was about twenty at the time the first time I tried it. The first time -- actually most of the first year -- I took no pleasure from it. But, I knew that the porn stars seemed to enjoy it, so I stuck at it and grew to love it as well.

BME: Why did you start putting larger objects in?

I saw gay films where men who were taking whole arms up their ass were getting pleasure from it. I learned to take pleasure from stretching my ass, and the wider I opened it, the more pleasure I took.

BME: How quickly were you able to move up to bigger items? Do you have a training regime?

It took me about two years to be able to take a wine bottle, and four years to take a 32cm ball. Recently I've been able to take a big ball, much bigger than the bottle. To pass that level I had to first train my ass with bigger bottles, like 1.5L pop bottles. There were a number of painful sessions with a lot of blood and ass-hurt for about four days after each session.

Because I am not comfortable writing in English, I will tell you my personal method in French.

BME: Thanks, I'll do my best to translate it for the readers. (Note: The following answer was translated by BME -- I apologize for errors in the translation.)

When I first started, I was using small bottles of shampoo. After that, I tried small apples, and then bigger ones. At this point I'd put a year of stretching in, and bought myself a large dildo.

My method was to dilate my ass as often as I could -- every day, even if just for a short while. Before starting it's important to use a large dildo; use it to both warm up and clean your ass, so make sure you stick it up all the way. When you find that you can take this large dildo without any work-up or preparation, then you know that you're ready to take it to the next step.

Then, in each session, to get your bottom prepared, put in a big cucumber. Soon you'll arrive at a point where even the biggest cucumbers you can buy at the grocery fit easily in your ass. Now you're ready to get serious. Buy a small Coke bottle, and use that in your ass. When that passes in and out easily, move on to bottles of wine. Once you can take wine bottles easily, you can move on to even bigger things.

If at this point you're having trouble with the 1.5L Coke bottle (just try not to force it out because the bottle is very hard), you can also have slower stretching fun with candles. Try putting them in one by one and seeing how many you can fit in -- at this time I was putting in about fifteen at the same time. The candles are great because they allow your anus to stretch very slowly.

Once the 1.5L Coke bottle can enter your ass, train every day or two (use a large dildo first, then the bottle every session). Most of the time I use Vaseline, but don't do what I do in this case. I think that the best lubricants are the ones you can buy for this in a sex shop.

When the 1.5L bottle is passing easily, go out and buy plastic balls that start at a diameter a little bigger than the bottle. Play with those, and with time, and a little luck, you'll arrive at my level too. (Don't feel bad if you're just beginning -- when I first started, I could barely shove a finger in my ass).

What I'm going to tell you now is very important if you plan on doing extreme sessions and taking large gauge. Do not bandage your ass. Do not tighten your buttocks. Try not to get an erecection -- you want the blood to be in your ass lips, not in your cock. It's not easy, but it's important that you think of nothing and empty your mind. It's absolutely necessary that you concentrate on your breathing. Don't think of the pain; know that it will pass. The real secret though is to breath -- and remember, without the pain, it's IMPOSSIBLE TO TAKE THE BIG ONES!

BME: What does it feel like? Is it sort of like getting fucked by a really well hung guy?
I want to make it very clear that I'm not gay -- I LOVE WOMEN!

BME: I'm sorry -- I imagine people must make this mistake all the time?

All the time, yes. Frankly I'm getting fed up with it.

BME: But you didn't tell me you'd gotten the idea for the bigger play from watching gay porn?

Yes, but the gay aspect never aroused me -- just the ass part. The films only helped show me that men enjoyed anal play as much as the women did.

I just want to find a woman who wants to play fisting with me (to fist me, or to let me fist her). I'm searching for one or two or more women to join me in my play -- I want them to stretch my ass with four hands at the same time while my body is supported. If there are any French women reading this, please write me -- it's my dream to do this performance.

Back to your earlier question, playing with a very large object feels a lot like having to take a shit very urgently. Even though you feel like you need to shit, that's just your imagination, and you can get extreme enjoyment with your ass so full.

BME: Do you like the way your ass looks when it's all purple and blown out?

Not at all, I prefer it when my ass accepts the stretching without any damage.

BME: Have you ever bled from the bigger objects?

Maybe eight or ten times I've had blood, but it was mostly because I didn't use enough lubricant.

BME: So... how big do you think you can go?

I'm looking for a bigger ball right now. I want to push my stretching as far as my body can physically support. I go slow though, because I never use drugs or anesthetics of any kind; I prefer feeling all the pleasure and the pain!

BME: What's the difference between pleasure and pain?

When I reach the limits of stretching, the pleasure and pain merge into the same feeling -- the pleasure this brings is amazing! Just two days ago I managed to put in a ball 37cm around (that's almost 15"). The feeling of pushing that out of my ass was indescribably pleasurable. Next time I do that I'm going to be sure to video tape it -- I'm sure I could probably even make money with that one!

BME: What are some of the objects you've stuck up your ass?

I've stuck up two big cucumbers at the same time, 1.5L and 2L Coke bottles, balls of all sizes, every size of wine bottle, lots of big butt plugs, etc.

I had a lot of trouble taking the 2L bottle because it doesn't fit in the ass gently. I can take a bigger ball, but a big rubber ball deforms to fit the shape of the ass -- it doesn't get smaller, but it's an easier fit.

BME: After a session, how long does it take for your ass to go back to normal?

Just five or six hours usually.

BME: Does it hurt afterwards?

No, not at all, but for the next few hours I can feel the ass's big lips.

BME: Are there permanent effects?

Yes -- my ass is bigger than ever!!!

BME: Do you need to wear a diaper? Does everything still work?

I'm not a baby!!! Everything is normal for me. All of the "anal destruction" I've done was done by me with care, and my ass is as normal as yours is... Although sometimes when I'm taking a crap it's huge because I've now got the capacity to really stock up. My digestion is trouble free though, and I've had no problems at all.

BME: What sorts of emails do you get from your fans?

Well, I don't know that many people online, but mostly admiration, asking for advice, and I've met a few other ass stretchers who've sent me pictures of their stretching.

BME: If someone wants to starting putting bigger things up their ass, how should they get started?

Take it slow. Start with little toys, and take your time growing your ass.

BME: Have you told any of your friends or sex partners about your ass play?

Oh, no! Up until now it's been TOP SECRET!

easy answer (1)

gEvil (beta) (945888) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790165)

The easy answer to the problem: don't redistribute whatever it is you make. By not redistributing, you should be free from any GPL (or other license) obligations. Now, in real life, that may not be an applicable answer. But it is the easy one.

Re:easy answer (4, Interesting)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790535)

The easy answer to the problem: don't redistribute whatever it is you make.

It sounds easy, but it is actually very difficult to keep from distributing. You see, a distribution is a transfer between any two legal entities. So, for example, you hire a consultant and give him a copy of the software. Then you decide not to use the consultant any longer. He's annoyed, and he asserts his GPL rights on your entire product, and distributes it. You go to sue, and the copyright holder of the GPL piece gets involved and makes a case that you don't have the rights you think you did. Your NDA does not apply to GPL software because GPL prohibits you from adding incompatible terms.

In some cases, transfer between divisions, especially partnerships with one or more additional firms, are distribution. So, in practice, I think that purposefully not distributing is too difficult to do reliably. It also does not work against Affero GPL3. If you perform that as a service, you have to give up the source code.

So, it is much easier to keep your software separate as I advise.

Thanks

Bruce

Re:easy answer (1)

gEvil (beta) (945888) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790645)

Well, I was mostly posting that as a joke. But your explanations for why non-redistribution shouldn't really even be an option are quite enlightening. Thanks!

Re:easy answer (2, Informative)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790707)

You thought it was a joke. But I hear it sincerely from people in big companies. Thus, I had the explanation ready.

Thanks

Bruce

Re:easy answer (1)

Cyberax (705495) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790825)

I wonder, how Google manages to do this?

AFAIR, they have their own proprietary filesystem for Linux, yet they do not open its source.

Google's filesystem (1)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790921)

AFAIR, [Google has] their own proprietary filesystem for Linux, yet they do not open its source.

See Google File System [wikipedia.org] in wikipedia. It says that the filesystem isn't in the kernel, it's in user mode. So, it's not really part of Linux. I'm not sure it's so relevant any longer, anyway. There's been a lot of Linux cluster filesystem development by Oracle and others since then.

Bruce

Maybe it is (1)

Toe, The (545098) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790625)

That may be more feasible than it seems at first. Web applications usually want licensing for terms of use, but the actual source code is not redistributed.

Re:Maybe it is (1)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790667)

This is why we have Affero GPL3, the special version for software as a service.

Execs aren't going to read this (1)

syousef (465911) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790203)

Hopefully Perens' guide can be read by more company execs -- resulting in fewer lawsuits going forward (but we're not holding our breath)

Until the risk of being sued for a significant amount of money is more statistically likely than being struck by lightning and a meteorite at the same moment, no exec is going to waste their time. In fact unless you start personally suing CEOs I bet they have more important things to spend their time on.

It is not the exec that should be reading this in any case. It's the project manager or section/department head that takes care of this detail. A CEO and/or legal department and/or risk management group (depending on the size of the company) should enforce that this aspect of the project be considered.

Re:Execs aren't going to read this (4, Interesting)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790315)

When I visit a company to help them develop their Open Source strategy, I schedule a 50-minute talk for the top execs and the head of legal. This talk tells them what I am doing with the middle management, gives them some anti-propaganda to reset their opinions and expectations about Open Source, and establishes who I am working with in the company so that when they have issues about Open Source they know where to go.

That's about all I can get out of the top execs. But I get a lot of attention from the middle management folks who actually do the work.

Some of the recent lawsuits have got their attention. But what it often does is cause them to put a "no open source" clause in their default supplier contract. I signed a contract with a big phone company that promised I would not give them any Open Source! Of course, I was giving them advice.

Bruce

Re:Execs aren't going to read this (1)

wiresquire (457486) | more than 5 years ago | (#26791145)

Oh, there's a plenty good enough financial reason that all execs understand that has nothing to do with penalties as a result of being sued.

In software, non-compliance with legal licenses (open source or other) is one of the very few things that can result in you stop shipping your product.

And if you have to stop-ship an embedded software system, then it means that there's no point shipping just the hardware. Bye-bye to all revenue from the product. What can be worse than something which will instantly take your revenue to $0?

ws

Tried and failed (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26790305)

A while ago my company contacted the FSF with regards to some questions about correctly integrating some GPL and LGPL software with our own software. We got the runaround over a few e-mails with the FSF, and nobody ever got back to us. It would help if they would be more responsive when companies are *trying* to do the right thing. In the end we just gave up and wrote all the code ourselves, which was less full-featured than using the GPL software, but kept us on the right side of things. Very frustrating experience overall.

Re:Tried and failed (4, Informative)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790363)

The FSF were the wrong folks to do this with, because they do not want to help you make proprietary software. I will help you make both Free and Proprietary if you wish, and I'll make sure they don't get mixed in a harmful way. I charge for the service - I've got to make a living. You also need an attorney, if you don't yet have one. Part of the time I'd be working with your attorney, and part with you.

Bruce

Re:Tried and failed (1)

lucas_picador (862520) | more than 5 years ago | (#26791045)

It would help if they would be more responsive when companies are *trying* to do the right thing.

So... the FSF wouldn't give your privately owned company free legal advice? I don't think that's something to get huffy about, AC. Most people pay their lawyers when they want a license or contract interpreted; why should you guys get that service for nothing?

This seems to be a common misunderstanding among companies making their first baby-steps toward using FOSS: they somehow think that FOSS developers and advocates owe them some kind of duty of free labor for being so kind and enlightened as to, you know, actually comply with their legal obligations.

Re:Tried and failed (1)

boredhacker (1103107) | more than 5 years ago | (#26791121)

The FSF is not your free legal counsel.

Instead of begging for a free lunch from the FSF, your organization *should* have contacted their own legal advisors or hired some. Presumably, this is the kind of work Bruce does.

The reason your experience was frustrating is because you guys went about things in a completely inappropriate manner... so, you won't find any sympathy here.

Screw GPL just go with Ninnle! (1)

Who Is The Drizzle (1470385) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790327)

This is more reasons why people should use Ninnle Linux. It is licensed under the superior NPL or Ninnle Public License. Just another innovation from Ninnle Labs.

Re:Screw GPL just go with Ninnle! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26790421)

This idea invented by Shampoo?

IANAL (1)

DoofusOfDeath (636671) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790551)

Bruce wrote in to make sure we knew he was not a lawyer, even though he is weighing in on a legal issue, updated to reflect.

Does anyone know why we always give those "IANAL" disclaimers? Do we just say "IANAL" so that the reader doesn't take our opinion too seriously, or is there some kind of liability associated with not being a lawyer but sounding like you're giving legal advice?

Re:IANAL (5, Informative)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790627)

Does anyone know why we always give those "IANAL" disclaimers?

In the United States, it is not legal for anyone but an attorney whom you have retained, and who is admitted to the applicable Bar Association, to give you legal advice. Thus, people like me make clear that they are not attorneys, and that our advice, although it concerns the law, is something less than legal advice. It's your responsibility to check it out with your lawyer. I would be happy to talk with your lawyer, too.

Bruce

Re:IANAL (2, Interesting)

DoofusOfDeath (636671) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790885)

Does anyone know why we always give those "IANAL" disclaimers?

In the United States, it is not legal for anyone but an attorney whom you have retained, and who is admitted to the applicable Bar Association, to give you legal advice.

How far does that go? I mean, in the extreme, wouldn't that mean it's illegal for a cop to tell kids that they need to obey the speed limit?

I guess what I'm asking is what rules, if any, prevent that (absurd) example from being actually illegal?

Re:IANAL (3, Interesting)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 5 years ago | (#26791025)

How far does that go? I mean, in the extreme, wouldn't that mean it's illegal for a cop to tell kids that they need to obey the speed limit?

There's a good explanation in Wikipedia:

In the common law, legal advice is the giving of a formal opinion regarding the substance or procedure of the law by an officer of the court (such as solicitor or barrister), ordinarily in exchange for financial or other tangible compensation. Advice given without remuneration is normally referred to as being pro bono publico (in the public good), or colloquially, pro bono. Legal advice is distinguished from legal information which is the reiteration of legal fact. Legal information can be conveyed by a parking meter, sign or by other forms of notice such as a warning by a law enforcement officer. Printed legal materials, such as directions and how-to manuals, are generally not considered legal advice. Accordingly, directions on how to fill in a motion form and other court documents do not constitute legal advice.

Combining GPL and.... (1)

Hatta (162192) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790587)

Now that we know how to combine GPL with proprietary software, how do we combine GPL with BSD software, without getting yelled at by Theo?

Re:Combining GPL and.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26790665)

You ask that as if there's some way to deal with BSD software without getting yelled at by Theo anyway.

Thank you! Thank you! I'm here all week! Try the veal!

Re:Combining GPL and.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26790781)

Now that we know how to combine GPL with proprietary software, how do we combine GPL with BSD software, without getting yelled at by Theo?

Well, if I read Bruce's article correctly, that's, urm, rather hard...

Re:Combining GPL and.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26790833)

The GPL and (original) BSD license aren't compatible because of the GPL, not the BSD license. I know you're probably trying to be funny, but the answer to your question is the same as for combining GPL and proprietary: dual-license.

Re:Combining GPL and.... (1)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 5 years ago | (#26791059)

No, AC. GPL and the modern BSD license (not the one with the advertising clause) are compatible. The poster was making a joke about Theo, and about the cult of BSD not being entirely self-consistent on what they want you to be able to do, and not do.

GPLSoftware in Consumer Products (2, Insightful)

rwwyatt (963545) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790683)

In order to get my employer to move in the direction of Open Source, I provided research to show that closed source isn't free of litigation either.

In fact, our chipset supplier ran into trouble with closed source software which still lead to a cease and desist order requiring a class A Change

I do believe the GPL does need to be re-written in a far less verbose manner as many executives still do not understand it.

Re:GPLSoftware in Consumer Products (4, Interesting)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790807)

I do believe the GPL does need to be re-written in a far less verbose manner as many executives still do not understand it.

Some folks have written GPL equivalents without the preamble. They've not become popular. The problem these days is not really the GPL. It is that there have been thousands of meaningful court cases about software creating precedents helpful or harmful, and there is a lot of rather pernicious legislation like DMCA. So, we have to craft a license that will protect us from a tower of existing legal paper higher than I can figure. The fact that you can still read it in one sitting is pretty impressive. If you read the findings in recent court cases, especially the appeal in the JMRI case, it's pretty clear that judges like the GPL. And that's what we really need. If it doesn't protect you in court, why is it there at all?

Bruce

Re:GPLSoftware in Consumer Products (1)

rwwyatt (963545) | more than 5 years ago | (#26790945)

There is never any foolproof protection in any court.

While the judiciary has drastically improved in the United States, there are still far too many cases with basic failures of interpretation

The only success that I have had legally is when I am blunt in documents to the point of being extreme. I have met some people who simply do not understand "As-is" in product documentation.

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