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1056 comments

No proof yet... (-1, Offtopic)

Logical Zebra (1423045) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831279)

...against the theory that jerking off causes blindness.

Re:No proof yet... (1, Offtopic)

cfulmer (3166) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831325)

Well, you're not blind, are you? Proof enough.

Re:No proof yet... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26831913)

Not necessarily. He could have stopped when he started needing glasses.

Re:No proof yet... (5, Funny)

NonUniqueNickname (1459477) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831375)

Not a formal study. But sighted people using the internet make a strong case in favor of "no link".

Re:No proof yet... (1)

adisakp (705706) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831649)

The Internet is for Porn. [google.com]

Re:No proof yet... (2, Insightful)

NerveGas (168686) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831653)

Yeah, it's funny that once they got rid of the supposedly "bad" stuff in vaccinations (thimerosol), not only did autism rates not go down... they kept getting [i]higher[/i].

Obviously, something in our environment is making autism rates climb. But it doesn't look like it's the thimerosol. Even if it is from mercury (which I don't know of any data showing that it is), it seems to be mercury from some other source, not from thimerosol.

If it weren't for masterbation... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26831379)

I'd get no exercise.

Ssssh....nobody tell Charlie Sheen (5, Funny)

elrous0 (869638) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831311)

Maybe now he'll let his poor kids get their polio shots.

Supreme Court Ruling... (-1, Flamebait)

Hordeking (1237940) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831333)

...that courts now have medical degrees and are qualified to make medical decisions on behalf of the population.
Of course, there's no way this could possibly be abused.

Re:Supreme Court Ruling... (5, Insightful)

illegalcortex (1007791) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831373)

Where have you been? Courts have always not only made medical decisions, but ones in various other areas of science, too, when there is a dispute. What exactly do you think forensics are, anyway? They do the same things courts have always done - rely on expert witnesses. As soon as you come up with a better way to correctly solve disputes involving factual claims, please do let the world know.

Re:Supreme Court Ruling... (-1, Troll)

Hordeking (1237940) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831603)

Where have you been? Courts have always not only made medical decisions, but ones in various other areas of science, too, when there is a dispute. What exactly do you think forensics are, anyway? They do the same things courts have always done - rely on expert witnesses. As soon as you come up with a better way to correctly solve disputes involving factual claims, please do let the world know.

Why am I modded troll? Troll mods are for inappropriate posts meant to offend or offer nothing of constructive value (off-topic might be constructive, but don't relate to the conversation). The troll mod isn't meant for you to voice disagreement.

I misread the article as the court stating as if it were a fact, rather than deciding the evidence was inconclusive/insufficient.

i.e. The Government decrees that "black is white" and expecting everyone to suddenly internalize it., rather than saying "Well, you don't have sufficient evidence to prove that black isn't a color." It's a terrible example, but I can't think of a good one at the moment.

Re:Supreme Court Ruling... (2, Funny)

Chyeld (713439) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831761)

You are right, that was a 100% flamebait post, not a troll. Except of course, the connotation of a troll is that they are someone who consistantly posts inflamitory crap without bothering to add anything to the topic other than vitrol. So maybe we should see if someone else with mod points can balance it out, 50/50 troll and flamebait.

Re:Supreme Court Ruling... (1, Funny)

Timberwolf0122 (872207) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831637)

Your crazy the best source for rulings on medical, political and scientific data is a celebrity!

Re:Supreme Court Ruling... (1)

phosphorylate this (1412807) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831865)

They've always made decisions but courts sometimes crave a level of certainty that science isn't always able to provide and that is where mistakes can be made IMHO. Not that I think this is the case with the MMR vaccine, this issiue IS actually black-and-white. Others are not.

I think problems can arise when the science is new - e.g. shaken baby syndrome. Forensics thought they could tell when babies where being deliberately shaken to death. Unfourtunately they hadn't calibrated their forensic screens against a large enough sample of accidental trauma injuries to be able to distinguish the two - several innocent parents went to jail as a result.

Re:Supreme Court Ruling... (0, Flamebait)

SolidAltar (1268608) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831377)

This is a SPECIAL "vaccine" court specially convened for this kind of thing.

Re:Supreme Court Ruling... (1)

elrous0 (869638) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831407)

What do you expect them to do, throw out every case that involves any question of medicine or science? What if they had done that back when defense lawyers and prosecutors first wanted to make DNA admissible?

Re:Supreme Court Ruling... (5, Informative)

prgrmr (568806) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831415)

The courts are evaluating methods and conclusions, not doing the actual research. They don't have to have medical degrees or be doctors, just understand enough science to comprehend the scientific method and enough math to follow the statistics. This follows the same argument that one shouldn't have to be a doctor to take medicines correctly, or have to be a lawyer to follow any given law.

Re:Supreme Court Ruling... (4, Insightful)

Cathoderoytube (1088737) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831419)

No.. Courts make decisions based on evidence. Like in this case where there's no evidence supporting the claim that vaccines cause autism.

Re:Supreme Court Ruling... (4, Informative)

Myopic (18616) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831469)

You are obviously ignorant of both the law and of this story.

The court didn't make a "medical decision", they made a "finding of fact". Deciding facts is the entire reason we have courts.

Re:Supreme Court Ruling... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26831537)

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Your Conduct

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      1. upload, download, post, email, transmit, store or otherwise make available any Content that is unlawful, harassing, threatening, harmful, tortious, defamatory, libelous,abusive, violent, obscene, vulgar, invasive of anotherâ(TM)s privacy, hateful, racially or ethnically offensive, or otherwise objectionable;
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7. Content Submitted or Made Available by You on the Service
License from You

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Changes to Content

You understand that in order to provide the Service and make your Content available thereon, Apple may transmit your Content across various public networks, in various media, and modify or change your Content to comply with technical requirements of connecting networks or devices. You agree that the license herein permits Apple to take any such actions.
8. Trademark Information

Apple, the Apple logo, MobileMe, the MobileMe logo and other Apple trademarks, service marks, graphics, and logos used in connection with the Service are trademarks or registered trademarks of Apple Inc. in the US and/or other countries. Other trademarks, service marks, graphics, and logos used in connection with the Service may be the trademarks of their respective owners. You are granted no right or license in any of the aforesaid trademarks, and further agree that you shall not remove, obscure, or alter any proprietary notices (including trademark and copyright notices) that may be affixed to or contained within the Service.
9. Software Appleâ(TM)s Proprietary Rights

You acknowledge and agree that Apple and/or its licensors own all legal right, title and interest in and to the Service, and any software provided to you as a part of and/or in connection with the Service (the âoeSoftwareâ), including any and all intellectual property rights that exist therein, whether registered or not, and wherever in the world they may exist. You further agree that the Service (including the Software, or any other part thereof) contains proprietary and confidential information that is protected by applicable intellectual property and other laws.

License From Apple Apple grants you a personal, non-exclusive, non-transferable, limited license to use the Software as provided to you by Apple as a part of the Service and in accordance with these TOS; provided that you do not (and do not permit anyone else to) copy, modify, create a derivative work of, reverse engineer, decompile, or otherwise attempt to discover the source code (unless expressly permitted or required by law), sell, lease, sublicense, assign, grant a security interest in or otherwise transfer any right in the Software.
Export

You agree to abide by U.S. and other applicable export control laws and not to transfer from the U.S., by electronic transmission or otherwise, any Content or Software subject to restrictions under such laws to a destination prohibited under such laws, without first obtaining, and then complying with, any requisite government authorization. You further agree not to upload to your MobileMe account any data or software that cannot be exported without prior written government authorization, including, but not limited to, certain types of encryption software. This assurance and commitment shall survive termination of this Agreement.
Updates

As part of the Service, you may from time to time receive updates to the Software from Apple which may be automatically downloaded and installed to your device. These updates may include bug fixes, feature enhancements or improvements, or entirely new versions of the Software. You agree that Apple may automatically deliver such updates to you as part of the Service and you shall receive and install them as required.
10. Termination
Termination by You

You may terminate your account and/or stop using the Service at any time. To terminate your account contact MobileMe Support at http://www.apple.com/support/mobileme/ww [apple.com] . Any fees paid by you prior to your termination are nonrefundable (except as expressly permitted otherwise by these TOS), including any fees paid in advance for the term during which you terminate. Termination of your account shall not relieve you of any obligation to pay any accrued fees or charges.
Termination by Apple

Apple may at any time, under certain circumstances and without prior notice, immediately terminate or suspend all or a portion of your account and/or access to the Service. Cause for such termination shall include, but not be limited to: (a) violations of the TOS or any other policies or guidelines that are referenced herein and/or posted on the Service; (b) a request by you to cancel or terminate your account; (c) discontinuance or material modification to the Service or any part thereof; (d) a request and/or order from law enforcement, a judicial body, or other government agency; (e) where provision of the Service to you is or may become unlawful; (f) unexpected technical or security issues or problems; (g) your participation in fraudulent or illegal activities; or (h) failure to pay any fees owed by you in relation to the Service. Any such termination or suspension shall be made by Apple in its sole discretion, without any refund to you of any prepaid fees or amounts, and Apple will not be responsible to you or any third party for any damages that may result or arise out of such termination or suspension of your account and/or access to the Service.

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Re:Supreme Court Ruling... (3, Informative)

UnknowingFool (672806) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831703)

Concerning scientific matters, judges rely on expert testimony. In this particular case, they relied on three experts appointed by the court that there was very little evidence to support a link between MMR vaccines and autism.

I don't disagree with the ruling, but... (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26831335)

Do we really want courts deciding scientific fact?

Re:I don't disagree with the ruling, but... (5, Insightful)

Hordeking (1237940) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831351)

Do we really want courts deciding scientific fact?

Why not? The media industry decides on the law.

Re:I don't disagree with the ruling, but... (5, Interesting)

orclevegam (940336) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831411)

Do we really want courts deciding scientific fact?

Why not? The media industry decides on the law.

OK, if I'm following this that means:
Media -> Law -> Courts -> Science
So the Media now defines science?... of course now that I think about it, that's probably not to far from the truth for a distressingly large portion of the population.

Re:I don't disagree with the ruling, but... (1)

SuperBry (1242668) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831409)

It wasn't the courts themselves but a special master appointed by one. Though either way not so much.

Re:I don't disagree with the ruling, but... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26831435)

I think you're absolutely right to question that. I'd take it a step further on child vaccines as well. Recently, my state made the HPV vaccine mandatory, with a moral doubt waiver.

Someone asked me what I thought, and I said with my kids, I'd sign the waiver, and get them the vaccine. I just don't trust the government when it comes to medicine (well, anything really, but especially medicine).

Re:I don't disagree with the ruling, but... (2, Insightful)

flitty (981864) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831497)

No, and they don't. They've used science as evidence in a ruling. Pay attention.

Re:I don't disagree with the ruling, but... (4, Informative)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831507)

If there is a judicial proceeding that hinges on a scientific question, what else are you going to do?

This wasn't some stupid "And now, we will have a judge decide some science for us!" thing. A bunch of parties sued, alleging that their children had been harmed by vaccines. The only way that those cases could be decided, is by deciding whether or not the vaccines were indeed responsible. The court doesn't "decide scientific fact", it has scientific expert witnesses and research as evidence in deciding whether or not a particular party is responsible for a particular injury. The same way that a court would use eyewitness testimony or DNA forensic evidence.

Re: Courts (5, Insightful)

TheMeuge (645043) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831525)

Do we really want courts deciding scientific fact?

I don't know do we?

Because our society has certainly decided that scientists can no longer decide scientific facts. If that were not the case, we wouldn't be in this mess to begin with.

Over the last 10 years, US and UK have spent tens of millions of dollars to provide "negative proof" of something that we had already known, just to quiet down the conspiracy theorists. But instead of quieting them down, this has empowered them, by giving them and their claims legitimacy. Now, we're faced with a situation where childhood vaccination has taken a nosedive, and we're seeing old goodies like measles re-emerge into small (for now) epidemics. And as herd immunity is eroded further, we will see additional diseases make an impressive comeback.

So now that we took the right to make educated judgments about medical and scientific matters, away from doctors and scientists, we've also demonstrated that as a society we're incapable of making rational decisions... which isn't surprising. The only option left seems to be the courts, where reasonably educated judges may or may not rule according to the best data available. Well... at least there's a chance.

And for those who will scream at me about mercury in vaccines, why don't you compare a single or rare exposure to a tiny amount of mercury... to how much mercury you must feed to your children via fish... and corn syrup.

Re:I don't disagree with the ruling, but... (1)

interkin3tic (1469267) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831555)

Do we really want courts deciding scientific fact?

It's arguably better than lawyers and politicians deciding it without an arbitrator.

I also shudder at the thought of Joe Sixpack deciding these things. Fortunately, he hasn't much moved past whether God wants him to believe in evolution or not.

Re:I don't disagree with the ruling, but... (2, Insightful)

Sique (173459) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831561)

Who else should have the final say in a damage claim? Parents accuse the producer of the vaccine to have done damage to their children by causing their autism with the vaccine. The producer claims to be innocent. That's definitely something for a court to decide.

Re:I don't disagree with the ruling, but... (3, Insightful)

Adult film producer (866485) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831749)

Do we really want courts deciding scientific fact?

I'm not seeing this the same way you are. What happened here is the court judged the evidence for vaccines causing autism as insufficient. In same way the court decided that 'intelligent design' was not sufficiently scientific to be taught in science classes, I suppose. The door is still open for the vaccine advocates to prove their case... but they have to do the research.

Re:I don't disagree with the ruling, but... (1)

UnknowingFool (672806) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831841)

Don't just read the headline; read the article. Three independent special masters have come to the conclusion that there is little evidence that the MMR vaccine causes autism. This conclusion was backed by a vast amount of scientific data. The masters conclude that the plaintiffs' claims are on shaky ground.

Re:I don't disagree with the ruling, but... (2, Informative)

Big Smirk (692056) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831911)

Did you think before you typed that?

Take DNA for example. The courts have generally accepted that DNA is a unique identifier and that there are equipment out there that can determine if one sample of DNA matches another. Furthermore, the courts have accepted statistical data on the uniqueness of the DNA sample.

The question on whether the DNA evidence was collected and analyzed properly is typically a case by case issue.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frye_test [wikipedia.org] and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daubert_standard [wikipedia.org]

Are you suggesting the courts don't allow scientific evidence and instead rely on ...?

rtfa (0, Flamebait)

EricMB20 (1144673) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831361)

rtfa

Whats next? (0, Flamebait)

sirroc (1157745) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831369)

Jack Thompson will come out and say that the bad juju from violent video games is whats causing the surge in autism?

Besides, I was under the impression that it was the combination of vaccines before the age of 2 (36?) that was the leading factor. Specifically MMR+Chicken Pox combination.

Re:Whats next? (4, Insightful)

clonan (64380) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831647)

No, the lack of thoes vacines is a leading indicator for...

Children killed or brain damaged by their idiot parents.

Jenny McCarthy (5, Insightful)

mcsestretch (926118) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831433)

Good, now maybe that idiot Jenny McCarthy will shut her mouth about this. There are no telling how many kids have been put at risk because they're listing to celebrities harping their pseudo-science.

Re:Jenny McCarthy (5, Insightful)

eln (21727) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831765)

Not gonna happen. The anti-vaccine movement has long since stopped being about science (if it ever was) and has become a self-sustaining community of believers. Once a community like that develops around an issue, it's virtually impossible to get rid of it. These people have built an entire support system built around the idea that they are all bound by the fact that their poor kids got autism from the evil vaccines. They do not want to give up that support system, and will rationalize however they need to to keep it.

They will likely claim the court has no right to make medical decisions (already happened in this thread!) or that the court is being manipulated by Big Pharma with its legions of lobbyists. Under no circumstances will they simply admit they were wrong.

Re:Jenny McCarthy (4, Insightful)

Overzeetop (214511) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831813)

We can only hope natural selection will manifest itself on this group.

Ahh, the stupidity (4, Informative)

dk90406 (797452) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831437)

or nativity of some people. Contrary to evidence (e.g. a Danish study showing no adverse effects of the vaccinations, and possibly a reduction of asthma due to them http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/dec/06/bad-science-mmr-vaccine [guardian.co.uk] ), some folks still prefer urban legends over real science.

Re:Ahh, the stupidity (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26831563)

"nativity of some people"??? I'm guessing all people are native to where they were born, don't you think? And what does the nativity of people have to do with anything?

Re:Ahh, the stupidity (1)

UnknowingFool (672806) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831929)

The OP probably means naiveté. Naitivity is not a word in the English language and is often confused for naiveté.

Re:Ahh, the stupidity (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26831567)

or nativity of some people.

Those sons-of-bitches with their mangers in the front yard. I hate them too!

Re:Ahh, the stupidity (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26831591)

ah, yes, that infernal nativity of people -- why everyone is born and that is just wrong, dang it!

Or maybe you were thinking of naivete?

Re:Ahh, the stupidity (1)

iceborer (684929) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831605)

or nativity of some people.

In case of nativity, I'm guessing vaccines may not be necessary.

Re:Ahh, the stupidity (1)

jrothwell97 (968062) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831725)

And naÃveté has nothing to do with it?

Re:Ahh, the stupidity (5, Funny)

benad (308052) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831853)

You mean naïveté? Your UTF-8 sucks...

Inevitable tags for this story (1)

Myopic (18616) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831443)

I can predict some tags for this story: duh, noshitsherlock, establishedscience, wealreadyknewthat, tellmesomethingididntknow, !news, oldnews

Re:Inevitable tags for this story (3, Insightful)

interkin3tic (1469267) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831593)

But we didn't know the courts were going to listen to reason rather than urban legends and charlatans.

Re:Inevitable tags for this story (1)

Hogwash McFly (678207) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831875)

Except all of the 'non-serious' tags that were festooning this story 5 minutes ago have been 'disappeared'. What's up with the tag-slaying lately?

A victory for sanity. (5, Insightful)

Z00L00K (682162) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831463)

Autism occurs and makes itself known about the same time as the vaccination occurs, which may explain why some people makes that connection.

But even if there was a small risk of autism related to the vaccination the risks involved by not being vaccinated are higher and the risk of an epidemic is higher if there is no vaccination performed.

So if it's possible to get a vaccination - get it. People avoiding vaccination are a breeding ground for diseases like polio and a lot of other nasty things. The only disease successfully erased is smallpox - unless it escapes a laboratory somewhere, in which case we may have a disaster on our hands.

Personally I would call parents that are fighting against vaccinations as irresponsible and a danger to society.

Re:A victory for sanity. (1)

buswolley (591500) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831577)

Good Point.

Also, Autism has a strong genetic component.

There is so much research right now into autism, the spectral disease. It is amazing.

Re:A victory for sanity. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26831607)

No, the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program
  explains why some people make this "connection"

Re:A victory for sanity. (1)

matthewmok (412065) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831779)

So how did you come up with that risk calculation? There are no numbers for autism risk from vaccination, epidemic risks, etc. More so, each vaccination would carry different risk metrics. Your final conclusion may be right - but don't use erroneous and incalculably risk factors to get there.

Re:A victory for sanity. (1, Insightful)

db32 (862117) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831803)

Really? What would you call the parents that fought against the HPV vaccination that had barely been tested yet has been made mandatory in places where the drug lords making it have the local officials in their back pocket? I do agree that vaccines in general are a good thing, but leaping into accusing parents of fighting against them as being a danger to society is exactly the kind of rhetoric and propoganda the drug companies want to push their stuff.

Remember, these are the same companies that will probably never find a cure for anything because there is no money in a cure. If they can research how to cure your cancer for a one time charge, or keep you alive for an extra 10-20 years on expensive treatments which do you think they will pick? Blindly trusting the word of companies that have a vested interest in making sure everyone pays to have these things injected into every child is more irresponsible.

I have personally had a rather bad interaction with the MMR vaccine. It was the 3rd shot in the series, about 5 minutes after the shot I wandered back from the waiting room and said I didn't feel good. I woke up with 2 ER folks checking my blood pressure and checking for damage from collapsing. So...while I generally believe vaccines are a good thing blindly trusting those who profit on you getting them when they say there is no risk is stupid and dangerous to say the least.

No link demonstrated... (1)

Nittle (1356899) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831465)

This demonstrates some of the problems when the media picks up on these things. The CNN article states cnn.com [cnn.com] :

However, "the medical and scientific communities ... have found no association between vaccines and autism."
"Hopefully, the determination by the Special Masters will help reassure parents that vaccines do not cause autism," the statement said.

A ruling on a court case doesn't necessarily convince me one way or the other on this. They aren't experts running experiments publishing their findings, they're examining the presented documentation, by both sides of an issue. I'm surprised that the mass media took the time to even present an article with this kind of finding; they're usually good at stirring up muck, but not pointing out when they were wrong.
I will wait for science to show me that the risks of potential side effects are outweighed by the benefits provided from these vaccinations. Until then, show me the MMR.

Well then (0, Troll)

MikeRT (947531) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831479)

Let's make vaccine manufacturers as civilly liable for their products as every other manufacturer. Clearly, their products are proven safe now, and there is no possible scientific link between some of these products and serious harm in children, therefore they don't need any extra legal protection.

Funny thing is, I have met people who are very allergic to most vaccines, and my wife knows a woman who lost one or two of her siblings (he was a healthy kid) because of a fatal reaction to one.

This is why I hesitate to let "experts" force major social projects on us. What happens if and when 20 years from now there is serious evidence of a link between autism and some vaccines. The people who mandated them will say "sorry we didn't know," but the parents should be able to say to them "fuck you, you will pay horrifically for what you did to our kids, you miserable social engineers."

Re:Well then (5, Insightful)

badboy_tw2002 (524611) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831675)

And when smallpox kills a few million 20 years after that, who do I get to sue?

Re:Well then (1)

Unnngh! (731758) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831945)

Look on the bright side - if you're one of those few million, you won't have to worry about it...

Re:Well then (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26831709)

Well look at how vaccines work.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine

A lot of vaccines are essentially small doses of what they are to protect against, essentially giving the immune system a 'taste' of what they are so it knows to fight them better.

I wouldn't think someone would be allergic to vaccines (though since they have more ways of making them now, it might be possible) but rather weak to what the vaccine is for.

Yes there are risks in using vaccines but it shouldn't be linked to something completely uncorrelated with what it is and does.

Re:Well then (5, Insightful)

vux984 (928602) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831721)

The people who mandated them will say "sorry we didn't know," but the parents should be able to say to them "fuck you, you will pay horrifically for what you did to our kids, you miserable social engineers."

And when the kids catch these horrible diseases what then?

The parents will say, "Sorry we didn't know, we thought we knew best." Do the kids then get to say to the parents: "fuck you, you will pay horrifically for what you did us" ?

Just curious.

Re:Well then (1)

0xdeadbeef (28836) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831729)

If someone has an allergic reaction to something, it is the allergic person's fault (physiologically, at least), rather than the manufacturer. Perhaps they need a warning on a vaccines that says: WARNING: vaccine may contain vaccine.

Re:Well then (5, Insightful)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831773)

"This is why I hesitate to let "experts" force major social projects on us. "
So instead of "experts" you want people with no real education in the subject, no real facts, and a lot of fear and guess work to decide?
We know that vaccines don't cause autism. Just about every kid has been vaccinated and they don't all have it.
Vaccines could contribute to it but so could a lot of things. I blame DVDs myself. The huge increase in autism started when DVDs started to replace video tapes.
So we should also ban DVDs.

Read The Fine Article (2, Informative)

wiredog (43288) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831785)

The vaccine court was set up by Congress as part of what is known as the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. It was primarily designed to compensate the tiny fraction of people who suffer serious side effects from vaccines. Rather than have these victims sue vaccine makers in regular court -- potentially putting the manufacturers out of business and jeopardizing a major component of the country's public health infrastructure -- the court set up a "no-fault" system that required victims to prove to a special master only that vaccines harmed them, and not that anyone intentionally caused the harm.

There are good reasons for govt. vac. liability (4, Insightful)

sirwired (27582) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831795)

If the government required vaccine makers to shoulder the burden of liability claims, absolutely no drug company would ever bother to manufacture them. They take a very long time to develop, sell for a relatively low price, are generally given to jury-friendly and photogenic children, and are difficult to manufacture.

The powers that be have decided that the public health benefit of vaccines existing far outweighs the risk of the govt. having to pay out liability claims.

SirWired

Re:Well then (5, Informative)

MozeeToby (1163751) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831855)

The reason that vaccines are mandated is very simple, herd immunity. Herd immunity is what lets people that can't get the vaccines (like your friend who is allergic) live their life without serious fear of catching these deadly diseases. Yes, vaccines carry some non-trivial amount of danger, but science has verified that the danger to the individual is outweighed by the danger of society losing herd immunity.

What people don't realize is that it only takes 10-15% of the population being unvaccinated to cause a major outbreak. Once that happens, it is much more likely for a disease to mutate and be able to attack even those that are vaccinated. That's why the government mandates vaccines, and since the government is mandating vaccines. It makes sense for the government to pay out when vaccines hurt people when the government is the one that made the decision, not the manufacturers.

Re:Well then (3, Informative)

Just Some Guy (3352) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831857)

This is why I hesitate to let "experts" force major social projects on us.

Agreed. We're much better off listening to Jenny freakin' McCarthy.

What happens if and when 20 years from now there is serious evidence of a link between autism and some vaccines.

"Smallpox was the first disease [wikipedia.org] people tried to prevent by purposely inoculating themselves with other types of infections; smallpox inoculation was started in China or India before 200 BC." Furthermore [wikipedia.org] , in the UK "[v]accination was first made compulsory in 1853, and the provisions were made more stringent in 1867, 1871, and 1874."

We started the scientific experiment over 2,000 years ago and the social experiment over 150 years ago. I think we've got a pretty good handle on the statistics by now.

Re:Well then (1)

wile_e8 (958263) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831877)

Funny thing is, I have met people who are very allergic to most vaccines, and my wife knows a woman who lost one or two of her siblings (he was a healthy kid) because of a fatal reaction to one.

No one is saying vaccines are without side effects. It's just that they are rare, and their effects on society are minuscule compared to the effects of the diseases if large numbers of people fail to vaccinate. Also, just because the first visible symptoms of autism frequently show up just after the MMR vaccine does not mean the MMR vaccine caused autism.

Re:Well then (5, Insightful)

mugnyte (203225) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831889)

This is why I hesitate to let "experts" force major social projects on us.

But you do this every day. The specifications for fuel containers, electricity transmission, microwave usage, drugs, food, drink as all brought about from open public discussion around a set of targeted studies. There are thousands of risks you take every day based on the statements of experts that set the margin for error as low as society wants, including the squabbling over the last few percentage points.

  If there's a link between vaccines and autism 20 years from now, then *society itself* will have learned something. You may be horrified, but this occurs every day, and plenty of children & adults "pay" for these mistakes. Lead paint, drugs come and go, gaseous output from industry, heavy metals in manufacturing, etc. Lots of exposure to the "safe" chemicals we make and use every day will undoubtedly have new effects learned about them in the future, and some will be negative.

  You are not living in the future, nor is society omnipotent. You can do your best to push the discoveries along as fast as possible, but you're going to have to accept your place in history, as we all. For example: you skipped the century of common transmission of animal-borne diseases in congested cities, but are now living in the century of plastic, fossil fuels and biological experimentation. There may never be a time when your actions don't involve some calculated risk, where you didn't do the calculations yourself.

Right now, there is no observable link between vaccines and autism, and there may never be. Fund more studies if you want, but don't skip the vaccines, you're just butting heads with society in general.

Re:Well then (1)

Mofassa (975528) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831905)

So what do you suggest? We abandon vaccines altogether? To the best of my knowledge all medical proceedures have a risk of side effects, and at the end of the day, if the benefit far outweighs the risk. If there is no possible way to know something, there is no reason they should be held responsible for their actions. I'm no lawyer, but to the best of my knowledge, the liability of a company depends on them exercising sound judgment. I would much rather have doctors decided which vaccines I need to take than, well any politician, parent, or myself. Imagine the public outrage if a company developed a vaccination against AIDS/HIV, but found out that 0.00001% of those who take the vaccine developed a deadly side effect - and as such they decided to hold it back. We can't have it both ways - the human body and nature is filled with ambiguity, and unless we offer protection to side effects which had no reasonable way of determining, the incentive to release a vaccine or treatment would be next to nothing.

Re:Well then (2, Informative)

thermian (1267986) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831941)

What happens if and when 20 years from now there is serious evidence of a link between autism and some vaccines. The people who mandated them will say "sorry we didn't know," but the parents should be able to say to them "fuck you, you will pay horrifically for what you did to our kids, you miserable social engineers."

I'm pretty certain the the plagues we'd suffer in the meantime through lack of vaccine uptake would deal with any sceptics nicely.

Whew, that's a relief. (0, Troll)

geekmux (1040042) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831487)

Boy I feel better that the courts ruled on this, because Lord knows there's no chance of Corporate-led, Pharmaceutical-grade palm grease being applied 3x/day there to "enhance" someones opinion...

Re:Whew, that's a relief. (5, Informative)

CrimsonScythe (876496) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831939)

Interesting that you should say this, since the doctor who published the original study was actually paid to do the study by the parents who wanted to sue over the alleged MMR-autism link [bbc.co.uk] . From the BBC article:

Mr Wakefield received funding to see if there was any evidence to support possible legal action by a group of parents who claimed their children were damaged by the vaccine. Some children were involved in both studies.

If that wasn't bad enough, alongside with other charges (see here [bbc.co.uk] ), there are signs of him fixing the data [timesonline.co.uk] in the study. Not exactly what I'd call a pillar of ethical and unbiased behavior...

The judge did no such thing... (2, Insightful)

holmstar (1388267) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831489)

The plaintiffs (parents of children with autism) are required to present evidence that shows that there is a link between the vaccines and autism. The judge ruled that the evidence provided by the plaintiffs did not show such a connection, thus their complaint is dismissed. They can find more conclusive evidence and try again if they wish.

Court can rule anything (0)

toxygen01 (901511) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831493)

"Court ruled that water is not chemical" ... I would be no surprised by USA anymore. for people who are interested in topic and pseudo-prove it is vaccine what causes it, http://chetday.com/autismdiet.htm [chetday.com] this article could help you (or you may want it to pass it to someone to whom it would help)

Neighbor believed this (1, Interesting)

hansamurai (907719) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831499)

My neighbor believed this, her husband was dumbfounded, but he and the doctor couldn't convince her otherwise. I had never even heard of it before I had talked to her husband. Kind of sad.

Joy in Guilt (3, Insightful)

jellomizer (103300) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831513)

I think for some reason a lot of people find joy in finding problems with progress. They seem to want every advancement we make as people to have some dark side effect that will lead us to our doom.
There is being vigilant not taking things at face value, then there is going overboard and jumping to conclusions just to prove progress is bad.

Just recently a bill was passed to stop a chemical from being put into children's toys, however there is no evidence that it is actually harmful in that amount. And is being replaced with new chemicals that could be just as bad, if not worse.

Is it that they want to be Hero's saving us from them selfs or do they take joy in preventing progress.

Autism not caused by vaccines, but ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26831535)

I don't have a medical degree, in fact I'm just a barber, but it is well known already that Autism not caused by vaccines, but by spirits residing in the lower intestine. Sometimes wood nymph bites will also cause this but they are more likely to cause AIDS. And yes, Elves do live in your armpits and cause the funky smell. bleeding with Leeches take care of everything. Unless you're a witch...then of course you float just like a duck.
I wonder if I can get appointed to the Supreme Court?

Good! (2, Insightful)

greg_barton (5551) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831549)

I tend to lean to the left side of the political spectrum, but two threads of liberal thought piss me off more than just about anything: anti nuke environmentalists and autism/vaccine linkers. Both group are as bad as any anti science fundamentalist, but in a way worse: they think that science and reason backs them up, when really it doesn't. They're just using it as a rationalization for their existing superstitions, mainly of the "don't mess with mother nature" variety.

Oh. Well then. (4, Funny)

hey! (33014) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831559)

I guess that's settled.

Re:Oh. Well then. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26831789)

Just like Roe vs. Wade settled the whole 'abortion' thing.

Older fathers have more autistic children (3, Interesting)

5pp000 (873881) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831575)

I didn't know about this until just last week, and I'm fifty! But apparently the evidence is pretty good. Search the Web for "paternal age autism" and you'll find a raft of stuff, such as a Washington Post article that says this:

When fathers are in their thirties, children have about 1 1/2 times the risk of developing autism of children of fathers in their teens and twenties. Compared with the offspring of the youngest fathers, children of fathers in their forties have more than five times the risk of developing autism, and children of fathers in their fifties have more than nine times the risk.

This hits home for me since there is actually some possibility I might attempt to father a child or two in the next several years. Food for thought.

On the other hand, at worst the risk is less than 1% per child.

Re:Older fathers have more autistic children (3, Informative)

JeanBaptiste (537955) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831895)

You think that's bad, check out Down Syndrome rates as the female gets older.

couldn't find a pretty chart, but it works [about.com]

Because we know everything about everything... (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26831599)

Honestly, it's different in every person. Those who may be built better might not have any issues with the vaccine. Those with weaker immune systems may have issues manifested later in life.

It's honestly really stupid of us to say "It does" or "It doesn't" at this point. We don't know enough about how the human body works on a per case basis. All we can do is make generalizations.

It's like saying AIDS will kill you.. For the majority of us, yes, it will. For the one guy in china that was found to be completely immune to the virus, no, it won't.

surprise! (1)

syrinx (106469) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831665)

I expect follow-up rulings on the religious beliefs of the Pope, and the bathroom habits of bears.

Common Sense? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26831667)

Fuck, I hate the over use of this term. The widespread popularity of the myth of vaccine problems (I fell for it once myself) should only go to show that common sense is anything BUT common. People are pattern matching machines. We are very good at intuitively understanding the WRONG thing. Anything one person may call "common sense" may be called a "bizarre belief" by another person.

So could we PLEASE just stop using this term altogether? Like "political correctness" it was a once-useful term that has simply become a label for people to throw at other people for political reasons that has no basis in reality.

Re:Common Sense? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26831755)

Fuck, I hate the over use of this term. The widespread popularity of the myth of vaccine problems (I fell for it once myself) should only go to show that common sense is anything BUT common. People are pattern matching machines. We are very good at intuitively understanding the WRONG thing. Anything one person may call "common sense" may be called a "bizarre belief" by another person.

So could we PLEASE just stop using this term altogether? Like "political correctness" it was a once-useful term that has simply become a label for people to throw at other people for political reasons that has no basis in reality.

Right, and you don't thing we match the wrong patterns and go with them? Ever hear of cancer chief?

Mercury (-1)

JimboFBX (1097277) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831717)

Sooo the court is saying that putting Mercury (used as a preservative), a known toxin, into vaccines, didn't cause autism? Even though now they no longer do that and there is still risk that maybe some shady or ignorant vaccine makers still do that?

Sure there is no 100% correlation but if a vaccine changes your risk from 0.006% to 2% then that is something I doubt scientific evidence nor professional experts are going to be able to prove. My girlfriend while studying to become a nurse met an instructor with 3 autistic children (no genetic history) and 3 other people in the same class with autistic children. All lived in the same area. Pretty suspicious odds, if is not the vaccine its something environmental that wasn't around that much 100 years ago.

Public Health vs. Personal Rights (1)

IgnacioB (687913) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831745)

This is one of those issues that directly pits personal rights against the greater public health. It would be nice to allow people to opt out, but when they do they put the remainder of the public at risk of epidemic. It's a herd thing.

Re:Public Health vs. Personal Rights (1)

Firemouth (1360899) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831799)

I know for a fact you can opt out. My daughter hasn't received a single vaccine. All you gotta do is sign a little form saying you don't want it.

Vaccinations harm people (-1, Troll)

CleverFox (85783) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831759)

I have a friend whose child immediately had an epileptic seizure right after a vaccination and has been having seizures ever since. They collected money from "master fund". It happens.

A study of 10,000 Amish people found there are no autistic Amish people. Amish do not vaccinate. To me that is all the evidence I need right there.

Re:Vaccinations harm people (5, Insightful)

Mad Leper (670146) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831849)

Amish people are far less likely to be involved in automobile accidents than the general population. Amish do not vaccinate, therefore vaccinations cause automobile accidents..

Do I need to spell out the sloppy thinking ?

Re:Vaccinations harm people (1)

ksalter (1009029) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831901)

citation?

Media, not physicians, to blame (5, Insightful)

Haeleth (414428) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831763)

The one disappointing thing here is that the court blames physicians for the public misconception. In reality, the blame lies more with the mass media, who turned the original claims into a massive health scare.

The vast majority of physicians correctly investigated the claims and determined that the evidence did not stand up to scrutiny. But the media took that and turned it into their beloved "lone rebel" story, with a parents' champion fighting to get the truth out while the sinister establishment tried to suppress it. Result? Massive decrease in vaccine uptake, threatening public health and risking a deadly epidemic. All because "your children are at risk" sells more papers than "oops, we goofed up, turns out vaccines are safe after all".

Why was this decided by a special court? (0, Offtopic)

KYHopeful (1452945) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831805)

I'm on the losing end of this argument, but I have long believed that special courts such as this one are unconstitutional usurpations of Article 2 courts which have "the Judicial power" and that power cannot be passed onto special courts whose purview is less than the entire judicial power. While this argument is perhaps a century or two too late, unconstitutional acts are still unconstitutional, despite centuries of adherence to them. The stack of people who will disagree with this comment is likely huge, but just because we've always had "Bankruptcy" Courts doesn't mean that their existence directly contradicts the clear meaning of Article 2 which stated that the judicial power would go to the Supreme Court and such inferior courts as Congress shall from time to time create. Yes, Congress could make no courts. But, ANY court created must possess the ENTIRE judicial power and not be a limited or "special" court. When you see "special court", read "unconstitutional court." Tunester [blogspot.com]

Correlation is not causation (4, Insightful)

Locke2005 (849178) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831819)

There was no scientific evidence that Silcone Breast implants caused illness [nytimes.com] either, but that didn't stop them from driving Dow Corning into bankruptcy with claims that they did. People do have a right to their beliefs, even if they are paranoid delusions, they have a right to refuse to get their kids immunized. What they don't have is a right to is compensation for harm that occurred after another event with no evidence that the other event actually caused the harm. In this case, the original claim was that the mercury (Thimerisol?) caused autism; it was quickly removed from vaccines, and then the claim was changed to the vaccination itself caused autism. When that couldn't be proved, then the claim was changed to several different vaccines taken closely together cause autism. (This last claim isn't quite as ridiculous as the other claims, since vaccine safety is tested a single vaccine at a time, not in combinations.) Yeah, I'm sorry about your kids' medical problems, but, like silicone implants, there is no statistical evidence that the medical problems occur any more frequently in kids that have had the vaccinations than kids that have not. Post Hoc, ergo propter hoc [wikipedia.org] is still a logical fallacy.

Millions paid to those injured by vaccines (1)

transporter_ii (986545) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831891)

Europe: 3.5m pounds paid out in vaccine damages

source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4356027.stm [bbc.co.uk]

more than $916 MILLION dollars have been paid to people injured by vaccines, not just those claiming autism, because every single case there has been dismissed.

Source: http://newsok.com/high-court-should-reject-vaccine-suits/article/3321176 [newsok.com]

What a blow to Disney... (2, Interesting)

grocer (718489) | more than 5 years ago | (#26831915)

Well, maybe not, but Cornell researchers found that autism spiked when cable TV became more widespread [slate.com] . It may or may not be related...of course, there is the factor of affluence and whether autism would be more likely to be diagnosed and treated in households that could afford cable. Maybe there's a statistically significance between whether or not parents of autistic children drive luxury cars or own large houses, too, but who knows. However, there was a difference in autism rates when correlated to television watching.
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