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Web-based IDEs Edge Closer To the Mainstream

timothy posted more than 5 years ago | from the hope-your-connection-is-reliable dept.

Programming 244

snitch writes "Last week Mozilla released Bespin, their web-based framework for code editing, and only a few days later Boris Bokowski and Simon Kaegi implemented an Eclipse-based Bespin server using headless Eclipse plug-ins. With the presentation of the web-based Eclipse workbench at EclipseCon and the release of products like Heroku, a web-based IDE and hosting environment for RoR apps, it seems that web-based IDEs might soon become mainstream."

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Soil cleaner (5, Funny)

BadAnalogyGuy (945258) | more than 5 years ago | (#26916597)

I had this great idea for a product. It would clean the soil in your yard. The soil itself would be clean soil after using the product. In other words, even if you rolled around in it and got the soil all over you, you would still be clean.

Strangely, it was a solution to a problem that no one had. It figures that I shouldn't get my product ideas from Bill & Ted

Re:Soil cleaner (0)

ShieldW0lf (601553) | more than 5 years ago | (#26916713)

Sounds like the sort of thing that would only be useful if you wanted to release your source. If you use this tool at all, you just did, right?

Re:Soil cleaner (3, Funny)

jetsci (1470207) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917331)

Its scary when you consider the implications of this - as you pointed out.
I can imagine the EULA now:

"ALL YOUR CODE-BASES BELONG TO US!111!"

Re:Soil cleaner (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26916955)

Excuse me Mr. Drug Dealer...I'll have what he's having!

Re:Soil cleaner (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26917339)

agar dum hai to kutub minaar ko hilaakar dikhaa..

yaa phir, aa...baith...do ghoont pi...aur kutub minaar ko hilte dekh..:-D

Re:Soil cleaner (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26917821)

agar dum hai to kutub minaar ko hilaakar dikhaa..

yaa phir, aa...baith...do ghoont pi...aur kutub minaar ko hilte dekh..:-D

translation for all those who don't read urdu/hindi.

If you have the strength then see if can move the kutub minaar (a famous tower in india) otherwise sit here have a drink and watch it move.

Re:Soil cleaner (1)

FiloEleven (602040) | more than 5 years ago | (#26918397)

Here I thought it was a Snow Crash reference...

Re:Soil cleaner (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26917299)

This reminds me of a movie I once saw. It about this product that changed the color of the soil. It was called "Soil It Green". The movie didn't make a lot of sense to me.

Why not? (2, Insightful)

Seth Kriticos (1227934) | more than 5 years ago | (#26916637)

Sure, they will not replace local editing tools for the main development of applications, but for remote access and small stuff it sounds nice.

Re:Why not? (0)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | more than 5 years ago | (#26916823)

It also sounds to me like something that would be *really neat* to include in a source code control product for teams. Kind of like Microsoft's Visual Studio Team edition, but an intranet web version for closed source and a downright internet web version for open source (so everybody can see everybody else's edits).

Re:Why not? (1)

silanea (1241518) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917109)

It also sounds to me like something that would be *really neat* to include in a source code control product for teams. [...]

The one does not have anything to do with the other. One provides a managed place for you to put your code, the other lets you write code in a comfortable unified environment. Why would you want to integrate those two?

(Assuming just for a moment that web-based IDEs actually make sense for professional software development.)

Re:Why not? (4, Insightful)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917695)

The one does not have anything to do with the other. One provides a managed place for you to put your code, the other lets you write code in a comfortable unified environment. Why would you want to integrate those two?
 
When working in a team environment, integrating the two makes for another channel of communication, especially between geographically separated team members (which seems to be an increasing trend in my personal contracts; I've gone from originally working in a company where source code control was done by shouting over the cubicle walls, to a situation where I'm getting up 3 hours earlier than normal to collaborate with coders in European time zones). It also seems to me to greatly simplify the autosave process if the two were integrated, especially in a web environment- thus capturing all branches of the code automatically server-side, for the project manager to integrate the final code for build.
 
Of course, this all would require at least two major advancements to the current codesets in TFA:
 
1. enough speed for professional software development (something that even current client-side IDEs sometimes lack for me, though the problem might be more of a PEBCAK, or more precisely, a PEBBAF (Problem exists between brain and fingers, instead of between Chair and Keyboard).
2. sufficient integration between the data entered in the client-side web interface and the code repository to show changes when two team members are working on the same source code file.

Re:Why not? (2, Interesting)

von_rick (944421) | more than 5 years ago | (#26916857)

I'm wondering how they would word their EULA. If they claim ownership of the code that's compiled and developed on their servers, that would be a deal breaker for most developers.

Otherwise its a wonderfully implemented idea.

Re:Why not? (2, Interesting)

digitalunity (19107) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917037)

For precisely this reason, I would never ever switch to a remote IDE hosted by another company.

A possibly debatable secondary reason is just that I don't want anyone else having access to my code that is potentially going to be released as closed source. Everyone knows IT guys are generally snoopy when they're bored, and sometimes my comments contain profanities directed towards my users.

Re:Why not? (0)

PinkPanther (42194) | more than 5 years ago | (#26918169)

I would never ever switch to a remote {webhosting|email|CRM|ERP|backup|datacenter|...}

Many, many times in history we've seen this initial gut reaction to the idea of "remote data". And many, many organizations are recognizing the business benefit of no longer hosting/maintaining their own infrastructure.

Focus on the business at hand (e.g. coding) and quit wasting time on infrastructure (version control, defect tracking, build systems, backup & recovery, server sizing, etc...).

I don't currently foresee our organization moving to remote IDE, but if we decided to cut costs on non-core areas, outsourcing IT infrastructure would certainly be one option (we've already outsourced a portion of it).

Re:Why not? (4, Interesting)

Vectronic (1221470) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917041)

This is rather off-topic, but Sumo-Paint [www.sumo.fi] still impresses me, it's not quite as good as Photoshop, etc, but it comes very close...

If Bespin, etc can get anywhere near that functionality/power... it will certainly be useful. Especially in classroom situations, where it can be sandboxed in the browser.

However, I am curious about how one would go about compiling, or is it strictly code-editing, online-only apps?

Re:Why not? (1)

cheftw (996831) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917673)

Mod parent up - that program is amazing

Re:Why not? (1)

palegray.net (1195047) | more than 5 years ago | (#26918049)

Seriously, mod parent up! I don't give a rip if it is a little off-topic; that's the coolest web app I've seen in a very long time.

Re:Why not? (3, Interesting)

Garridan (597129) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917055)

I'm a Sage [sagemath.org] developer, and our only GUI is a web interface. Run Sage on your local machine, and you serve to localhost. As Sage developers use the GUI, we're getting more attached to it, and we keep adding more IDE-like features. Recently, there have been discussions to make it easier to edit Sage directly from the GUI. With a little care and extra work, it seems as though we'll be able to make the system such that multiple developers can collaboratively edit the source, making messy merges a thing of the past.

I won't claim that Sage will become a great IDE -- that's not our plan: we want to make great math software. But, the way that people write software is changing. Local editing tools are the best right now because they've had the most time to develop, and today's developers have grown with them. In 10 years? I'm not sure that the younger generation of developers is going to stick with a local copy of emacs. More and more tools are migrating to the web; I don't care to predict that the world isn't going to change.

Re:Why not? (1)

John Betonschaar (178617) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917293)

With a little care and extra work, it seems as though we'll be able to make the system such that multiple developers can collaboratively edit the source, making messy merges a thing of the past.

Right... So you expect less of a mess when you have different developers hacking away at the same files without a revision-control system to integrate what everyone is doing?

Re:Why not? (1)

Garridan (597129) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917397)

Who said there's no revision control? That falls under the heading, "with a little care and extra work" -- tight integration with mercurial is quite easy, since it has a nice python interface.

Web-based Visual Studio for MFC (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26916709)

i've been using web based visual studio for MFC for a few weeks now and it works smooth as brown sugar.

i recommend it to anyone that wants to create Win32 applications on a web-based ide

Re:Web-based Visual Studio for MFC (0)

Vectronic (1221470) | more than 5 years ago | (#26916885)

Link please? I tried (a rather quick) google, to no avail...

Re:Web-based Visual Studio for MFC (4, Interesting)

AKAImBatman (238306) | more than 5 years ago | (#26916971)

I do believe you've been had. His comment about Win32 strikes me as the intended 'tell' for his sarcasm. The point being that developing desktop applications in a web-based IDE doesn't make much sense. Which I do agree with. The two environments are not at all integrated.

Of course, the AC conveniently ignores the massive business of web development which *could* benefit from centralized IDE services.

Re:Web-based Visual Studio for MFC (1)

Vectronic (1221470) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917211)

I figured as much, but the prospect was too tempting to ignore...

I don't see why "real" applications couldn't be developed though, albeit they would have to be very limited in their imports and what-not, as well as almost mandatory open-source, and could be compiled on the host server, then spit out the executable back through the browser.

Although handling security would be a nightmare I would imagine, plus it would have to have an amazing code-analysis to make sure there was no infinite-loops, security-bypassing, etc in the code. However generally anyone knowledgeable enough to get that far, probably wouldn't need a web-based IDE to bypass the system they are typing it on.

Potential for Netbooks (5, Interesting)

eldavojohn (898314) | more than 5 years ago | (#26916767)

As someone drooling over the insanely low prices of light weight netbooks with weak Atom processors, I was kind of lamenting that there wasn't something I could host on my beefy Linux desktop back home that acts as a code repository and compilation machine while all my development is done through a netbook.

I'm not too keen on someone else's server being the host for my web based IDE and holding my code but if they could make it so you could attach to any server (including one from your home) I would be all over this.

I know it sounds like I'm just coming full circle and mimicking mainframes from the 80s with the ability to cool and keep a quad core beast at home with a terabyte of storage mirrored across two drives while keeping a nice cool easy to move netbook ... but wouldn't that be awesome and liberating?

Re:Potential for Netbooks (1)

ianare (1132971) | more than 5 years ago | (#26916915)

If you use a "heavy-duty" IDE like eclipse or netbeans it may run a bit slow on a netbook.
If you are a vi kinda developer then what's the difference between using a versioning system (having the desktop as a SVN/Git server) ?

Re:Potential for Netbooks (1)

cabjf (710106) | more than 5 years ago | (#26916945)

So long as you were always connected a high speed network, it would work fine. It seems like we're moving back to the mainframe idea, but with a less than dedicated connection between the terminal and mainframe.

Re:Potential for Netbooks (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26917005)

Setup ssh on your beefy box. Install eclipse. run xhost +

Now on your netbook ssh -x
login
eclipse&

It should popup on you netbook but be running on your beefy computer.

Re:Potential for Netbooks (4, Insightful)

TerranFury (726743) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917105)

Apart from "xhost +" (which is a bad security move), I wholeheartedly agree. This is what X was designed for.

Re:Potential for Netbooks (4, Informative)

godrik (1287354) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917487)

there is no need to xhost + your machine. It is the point of using ssh Xforwarding.

An other version would be to run your IDE from your netbook but alias make to "ssh make" or using a well configured distcc. The last point would be transfering datas. Two options are available here. Either you rsync them to the server, or you mount the code directory on your local machine using ssh, fuse and sshfs

Re:Potential for Netbooks (1)

Windrip (303053) | more than 5 years ago | (#26918261)

I wouldn't worry about it. Those who know enough to use ssh to start a remote X session will establish the connection via PKI, not xhost.

Re:Potential for Netbooks (3, Informative)

doug (926) | more than 5 years ago | (#26918161)

Avoid the "xhost +" stuff. From the netbook try something like

ssh -YtC user@beefy.box.com /path/to/eclipse

and you just might get what you're looking for.

- doug

You are wrong (1)

weiqj (870224) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917019)

We have SVN and Eclipse and Visual Studio .Net. Free dd-wrt with OpenVPN support on a free after rebate home router. I can't see the reason why people keep reinventing the wheel.

Javascript (1)

TheNinjaroach (878876) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917291)

That would indeed be awesome, but I think the amount of Javascript code required to make the Web IDE behave properly would probably be too much for an Atom processor to handle in a responsive manner.

Perhaps for your situation, a remote X session or RDP would be better.

Re:Potential for Netbooks (1, Troll)

3dr (169908) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917329)

Hmm, I don't know. I see where you're coming from, but how is this more liberating that having a slightly more capable laptop that has a local set of dev tools? This is the camp I'm in. All the limitations of being tethered (by wire or wi-fi) are gone. I don't see how being tied down is liberating.

I recently upgraded to a smaller laptop (uni macbook) for its smaller footprint and better graphics, and for me, this is a near-ideal mobile dev machine. A local subversion repository that is periodically mirrored to my home server stores everything. The weak point is battery life at <5hrs.

Battery tech and power management are both improving (and will continue to improve) and I think for mobile hackers the netbooks will lose any advantage.

I'm skeptical (5, Insightful)

IdahoEv (195056) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917361)

I'm going to remain skeptical.

Net apps are great, but their performance in many areas is unavoidably way below that of native apps. When you can do everything with JS, you can be reasonably speedy if the processing requirements aren't huge and your browser doesn't leak memory too badly. (Dammit, Firefox!)

But when you need to persist data, you have to spawn an ajax query and that 1/10 to 1/4 second (even over a fast network connection) just isn't comparable from the user perspective to hitting a local HD. As local mass storage switches from HD to solid-state over the next couple of years, the difference between native and web apps is going to increase, not decrease.

Besides, half of these things are going to be ad-supported, right? At least in my experience, the performance of most websites has decreased the last 3 years or so as they hit and increasing number of different servers. It's typical for a single page to load content, ads, local javascript, stylesheets, and analytics from 10 or more pages. Each of these connections triggers its own DNS query. Every connection and every DNS lookup has a %age chance of hanging for a few seconds due to network traffic, server load, or what have you - as a result almost 10% of web pages I try to load these days stall for a few seconds. Do you really want that kind of crap going on in the background while you're developing? I don't.

Hah! Just reminded of a most annoying example! Slashdot, for me, loads pretty much instantly. But every time I post and click that "preview" button, there's a five-second wait before the preview actually shows up. That'll be fun, and additional five seconds for every classfile save in my IDE...

Re:Potential for Netbooks (1)

xtracto (837672) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917515)

I was kind of lamenting that there wasn't something I could host on my beefy Linux desktop back home that acts as a code repository and compilation machine while all my development is done through a netbook.

Lament no more!

I present you, the remote desktop client [wikipedia.org] . There are even free (as in libre and as in gratis) versions for your favourite ouperating system flavour

Re:Potential for Netbooks (1)

Rycross (836649) | more than 5 years ago | (#26918039)

A bit off-topic, but I'm not so sure a netbook is a good development environment even if you could set something like this up. Of all the ones I've seen, the keyboard is way too small to be able to type very quickly. Then again, maybe I just have big gorilla hands.

Re:Potential for Netbooks (1)

The Cisco Kid (31490) | more than 5 years ago | (#26918379)

cvs on server?
compile via ssh?

Aren't you recreating the dumb terminal? (1)

TravisO (979545) | more than 5 years ago | (#26918529)

I know some green screens from 30yrs ago that pretty much accomplish what you are proposing, and there's a reason we moved away from those.

note: CodePress url (1)

Tei (520358) | more than 5 years ago | (#26916827)

Semi-related sf proyect:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/codepress [sourceforge.net]

Re:note: CodePress url (2, Informative)

AKAImBatman (238306) | more than 5 years ago | (#26916911)

Codepress is just an editor. A potentially important piece of any IDE to be sure, but only a piece. You still need file system integration, project control, build support, deployment options, UI editors, code suggestion dropdowns, and a host of other tools and features that make modern IDEs useful products.

Project files? Now we hide the source files! (1)

0xdeadbeef (28836) | more than 5 years ago | (#26916835)

Isn't using Eclipse without the editor kind of pointless?

Re:Project files? Now we hide the source files! (1)

laejoh (648921) | more than 5 years ago | (#26916903)

Hey, I'm an emacs user, you insensitive clod!

Re:Project files? Now we hide the source files! (1)

digitalunity (19107) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917075)

I'm quite convinced someone sufficiently motivated could replicate the Eclipse IDE in ASCII format and functionality in emacs.

Anyone?


 

 

 

Bueller?

Re:Project files? Now we hide the source files! (1)

Dragonslicer (991472) | more than 5 years ago | (#26918343)

Hey, I'm an emacs user, you insensitive clod!

He was talking about an editor, not an operating system.

Is this just muscle-flexing? (5, Insightful)

puppetluva (46903) | more than 5 years ago | (#26916921)

Don't get me wrong. . . I think it is an amazing technical feat, but is it really practical to require internet access for this?

I think it is time that we as a community get behind a project that allows these remote apps to be cached locally for fully disconnected use (with a desktop runtime -- something akin to Adobe Air). It would be great to visit the site once and thereafter run it local (and get updates later while connected). As long as I'm fantasizing, I think we should try to make this a standard for new desktop apps -- written like gadgets, but full blown apps.

What do you think? Are there projects out there that are working on this already?

Re:Is this just muscle-flexing? (2, Insightful)

ktstzo (885924) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917233)

Applets

Re:Is this just muscle-flexing? (1)

talcite (1258586) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917457)

Google Gears does this exactly.

Re:Is this just muscle-flexing? (4, Informative)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917505)

http://code.google.com/p/gears/ [google.com]

Pretty much what you asked for. OSS, available for a large number of platforms, and already seeing some real world use.

Re:Is this just muscle-flexing? (3, Insightful)

godrik (1287354) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917601)

What do you think?

I think that I do not need web based applications. They are slow and do not do what I want them to do. It entraps you into a given view of your data without getting fine control on it. Can you search your mail on gmail for one containing an URL that matches a given list from a webcalendar ? No you can not, because you have no raw access on the data.

I only use web based applications as a remote access when I am using a windows machine (Otherwise, I can use ssh and X11 forwarding and everything is fine).

Mod parent up (1)

Viol8 (599362) | more than 5 years ago | (#26918437)

If I had mod points I'd mod you up. The web weenies really have no clue about the kind of functionality that power users want. As long as the eye candy looks "kewl" and the app is "Remote editing! , woah!, cutting edge dude!" (they've probably never heard of X Windows) thats all they need.

Re:Is this just muscle-flexing? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26917691)

Yes, it's called HTML5 [w3.org] .

Re:Is this just muscle-flexing? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26917781)

...but is it really practical to require internet access for this?

Web != Internet. Just because something is web-based doesn't mean you need Internet access to use it. You just need network access.

In other words, this could be hosted within your company, or even on your own server in your basement.

Re:Is this just muscle-flexing? (1)

Viol8 (599362) | more than 5 years ago | (#26918487)

>or even on your own server in your basement.

Which would make the whole enterprise totally pointless. Anyway , anyone with a clue about X Windows (ie not MS and Apple fanboys and probably no one who has the words HTML, Javascript or Ruby in pride of place in their resume) knows that people have been able to do this sort of thing for 20 odd years without going near a web browser.

WTF is it with undescribed acronyms? (0, Troll)

mcgrew (92797) | more than 5 years ago | (#26916935)

When I hear "IDE" I think of a type of hard drive (Integrated Drive Electronics).

IDE may refer to: [wikipedia.org]

Insulin degrading enzyme, an enzyme
Intact dilation and extraction, a form of abortion
Integrated development environment, a software development system
Integrated Drive Electronics (AT Attachment), a computer hardware bus used primarily for hard drives and optical drives (e.g. CD, DVD)
Institute of Developing Economies, a semi-governmental think tank in Japan
Instituto de Desenvolvimento Educacional, a Brazilian institution linked with Fundação Getúlio Vargas
International Development Enterprises, a development NGO based in Denver, Colorado
Investigational Device Exemption, a US Food and Drug Administration regulatory status
Ide may refer to:

Ide (fish), a freshwater fish
Ide, Devon, a village to the south of Exeter, in Devon, England
Ide, Kyoto, a town in Kyoto Prefecture, Japan
Charlie Ide, English footballer
William B. Ide, author of the California Republic's proclamation of independence from Mexico, June 15, 1846
Yuji Ide, Japanese racing driver
The KGB's codename for Samuel Krafsur

Re:WTF is it with undescribed acronyms? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26917027)

seriously?

It's about context (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26917067)

WTF is it with undescribed acronyms?

It's often about context; for example when I see the word 'tool' I know that it doesn't always mean an inanimate object.

Re:WTF is it with undescribed acronyms? (1)

wjh31 (1372867) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917087)

there are loads of acronyms with many meanings, and with almost all of them the meaning is left unambiguous by the context. If you cant figure it out from the context, then it's probably not of importance to you.

Re:WTF is it with undescribed acronyms? (0, Troll)

AKAImBatman (238306) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917115)

1. You're being ridiculously over critical. Does "Web-based Integrated Drive Electronics" make sense? No? How about "Web-based Insulin degrading enzyme"? Pretty silly, huh? Maybe, just maybe the context tells you what you need to know?

2. FTFS: "their web-based framework for code editing" I think that explains the usage of the acronym pretty well. If you're on Slashdot and you don't know what the three letters "IDE" stand for in that context, then you need to hand in your geek card and GTFO my lawn. Especially if you're an old timer, old timer.

(Bah! Back in my day we called our IDEs "CANDE" and we LIKED IT that way! We also threw glowing discs at the MCP right up until management put a stop to our shenanigans. Much more fun than the arduous task of flipping switches on the front of the mainframe. Not to mention that OUR permanent storage could capsize a naval warship if left unbalanced!)

Re:WTF is it with undescribed acronyms? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26917557)

Does "Web-based Integrated Drive Electronics" make sense?

Um, have you heard of google? I hear they let you store stuff on hard drives...over the web!

Alternatively, lots of hardware (such as my router) does provide a web interface, for configuration management, so it is conceivable that the next version of an extended IDE standard might include such an interface.

YIHUAA (yes I hate unexplained acronyms also).

Re:WTF is it with undescribed acronyms? (1)

AKAImBatman (238306) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917873)

Um, have you heard of google? I hear they let you store stuff on hard drives...over the web!

Worst. Argument. Ever.

BTW, for those of you who think I'm just trolling, here's an excerpt from the book "When Computers Went to Sea":

Because of shipboard space constraints, the NTDS computers called for very compact high-capacity memories that would also have to be unusually reliable. Electrostatic and mercury delay line memories were physically large, fragile, and out of the question for shipboard use. Magnetic drum memories were not only large, slow, and of limited capacity but were also incompatible with a ship's rolling and pitching in a seaway. Such motions would put large, unwanted gyroscopic precessional forces on the bearings of the massive spinning drums.

Supposedly if the drums were not properly balanced, the gyroscopic forces were powerful enough to induce significant roll into the ship's standing on the water.

The MCP (or "Master Control Program") was the main operating system of the Burroughs (later Unisys) range of mainframes. CANDE stood for "Command AND Edit program" which was an IDE similar in principle to the BASIC editors that many folks may remember using in the 80's. The primary difference is that the T27 terminals worked in a stateless submit/response mode similar to how HTTP works today. Since a persistent connection was not maintained like with the IBM terminals, code was usually edited one screen at a time before being transmitted back to the mainframe.

I shouldn't even have to explain the switch flipping. That was the ideal method of programming the old Honeywells. ;-)

Re:WTF is it with undescribed acronyms? (2, Interesting)

mcgrew (92797) | more than 5 years ago | (#26918031)

Does "Web-based Integrated Drive Electronics" make sense?

No, which is why I investigated further. Had they spelled it out I would have known that it held no interest to me.

I'm a coffee addict and it's early; my old brain needs to warm up before it functions properly.

We also threw glowing discs at the MCP right up until management put a stop to our shenanigans

Coincidentally I just watched TRON two days ago. It's still a good movie, and somehow even after almost thirty years it's still not outdated.

Re:WTF is it with undescribed acronyms? (1)

AKAImBatman (238306) | more than 5 years ago | (#26918365)

I'm a coffee addict and it's early; my old brain needs to warm up before it functions properly.

Ah. See, that's a different problem from the issue of spelling out acronyms. 99% of people "got it" as soon as it was posted. So you'll just have to warm up the vacuum tubes and pour some coffee into the primer channels before tackling Slashdot in the morning.

Besides, everyone knows that IDE (aka ATA or ATAPI) has been replaced by SATA. The IDE term is antiquated and only exists as one of those strange connectors on some "legacy" motherboards. Sort of like those odd "ISA" slots occasionally found sitting next to the PCI and PCIe slots. ;-)

Coincidentally I just watched TRON two days ago. It's still a good movie, and somehow even after almost thirty years it's still not outdated.

Has it really been that long? God, now I'm really feeling old.

Re:WTF is it with undescribed acronyms? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26918303)

1. You're being ridiculously over critical. Does "Web-based Integrated Drive Electronics" make sense? No?

Well, it sorta does... after all, we have iSCSI.

Re:WTF is it with undescribed acronyms? (2, Informative)

cbiltcliffe (186293) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917123)

Idiot Dumbass Editor.

Re:WTF is it with undescribed acronyms? (2, Funny)

Dog-Cow (21281) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917277)

AKA, a slashdot editor?

Re:WTF is it with undescribed acronyms? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26917725)

No, I think he's referring to the kind that people too unenlightened to use vim (or at the very least, emacs) edit code with.

Re:WTF is it with undescribed acronyms? (1)

cbiltcliffe (186293) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917939)

Hex editor, you n00b!!

Re:WTF is it with undescribed acronyms? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26917275)

I know! And what's the deal with airline peanuts? They come in those little bags that are so hard to open! What's the deal?

Re:WTF is it with undescribed acronyms? (1)

JustOK (667959) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917393)

WTF may refer to:
Wonderful Tingling Feeling
Waterfowl Training Facility
Web Transfer Function
Wide Tunnel Friction
Wispy Transformer Fructose

I doubt it (1)

El_Muerte_TDS (592157) | more than 5 years ago | (#26916995)

It will either be a shit load of network communication (which will be slow).
Or a lot of client side caching and processing (heavy on memory).
IDEs need to be fast and responsive, a slow start is acceptable. You don't want to wait seconds for files to open, or even for code completion (and other nice gimmicks) to kick in.

Re:I doubt it (1)

QuantumRiff (120817) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917213)

If you got a netbook, or lightweight laptop, and need to work on a file for a huge code project, this would be much, much faster. Even if there is a bit of lag in the UI. Your server (or server farm) you connect to is just about guaranteed to have faster processors, more ram, and larger disks.

Have you ever used the google apps? They are actually very quick and responsive, and work in a similar way.

Re:I doubt it (2, Interesting)

FunkSoulBrother (140893) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917493)

Have you ever used the google apps? They are actually very quick and responsive, and work in a similar way.

Just my anecdotal experience, but I spend most of my day in Google Docs spreadsheets that I think it is fair to call small (8 columns by somwhere between 20 and 100 rows). At any given time, there are zero to 3 people collaborating on the same document as me. It is slow as shit. I just sorted a 25 row column (just a simple A to Z sort), there was almost 5 seconds in between choosing the GUI function and seeing the result. It even lags when typing in a cell sometimes. I couldn't imagine doing development work in such an environment.

Re:I doubt it (1)

JCSoRocks (1142053) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917955)

I don't understand the push toward web applications where it's not necessary. Obviously the main advantage of a web app is that it's much easier to roll out in a corporate environment. I've never used a web app that performed better than its desktop equivalent. Not in response time, not in convenience and, with a few exceptions, not in features. In the case of IDEs - does anyone really want this? I've been developing through VPN on a virtual machine and the repaint on that has been bad enough. If I were using a web app I think I'd lose my mind. Also, I'd be waiting for the next browser update to break it and prevent me from doing any development.

Re:I doubt it (1)

theCoder (23772) | more than 5 years ago | (#26918453)

I can't imagine there is a netbook or lightweight laptop out there that is so slow it cannot run Emacs to load source files, which are just plain text. Emacs may have been bloated 20 years ago, but by today's standards it's lean and mean (of course, this means we've developed whole new levels of bloat in things like Eclipse). Any machine that can run Firefox can run emacs.

I guess it's neat that you can edit source files through a browser, and I can even think of times where it would be useful (editing files on a server you have no other access to). But for day to day usage? It seems like it would be pretty bad.

Another thing in the cloud? (1)

wjh31 (1372867) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917001)

How many more things need be integrated to the cloud before we start to blur the edges into thin clients (in a good way).

Re:Another thing in the cloud? (2, Funny)

cbiltcliffe (186293) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917143)

Do you think that's air you're breathing?

Hhmmm.

uhmm...... (1)

omar.sahal (687649) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917025)

Integrated Command-Line - tools like vi and Emacs have demonstrated the power of integrating command-lines into editors; Bespin needs one, too

I use vim and really the only reason I do is so I don't have to install and learn another editor. What make emacs and vim so powerfull is not their command line tools, its their ability to be scripted. That way every language that has ever been used has its own mode. One editor for sql, c, python, lisp, html, css, JavaScript etc. Does this do that or not? If so with web based software (all the hype these days) this project could get lots of attention, and if its really useful it may convert enough programmers over to this new platform.

Offline coding??? (2, Insightful)

Foofoobar (318279) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917063)

I often find myself without an internet connection and will just pull up Eclipse on my laptop and work on my checked out copy of the codeline. I don't need the connection except to check code back in and versioning control systems )if setup and used properly) already allow for collaboration (to an extent). So why should I require a connection to code? I want to work on code whenever I want regardless of whether I can find a wifi hotspot or not.

Version 2 (1)

chelsel (1140907) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917265)

The next release will feature "offline code editing"... just to bring things full circle.

Bespin (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26917297)

The cloud city... nice.

mainframe solutions, mainframe problems. (5, Insightful)

tjstork (137384) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917337)

As people romance the scale and stability of the mainframe and move towards centralized, mainframe approaches, they forget the reasons that gave birth to the PC revolution to begin with.

Having your stuff on your computer is an immensely liberating act. No matter what the terms of service, your data is in someone else's charge when its on yonder mainframe, and you are at the mercy of their data center when it comes to performance, user interface, virtually all aspects of the system.

On the other hand, with a PC, particularly as applications move towards more open file designs, you get much more control, more choice, and as much power as you would like to invest in.

Re:mainframe solutions, mainframe advantages. (1)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917817)

There are also advantages, its not all doom and gloom. As a user you get more power, reliability, centralized support, automated backup, universal access. As a company, you get more billing options ( who here remembers cpu and tape mount charges? ), control over your data, better security and application management ( licensing ).

Now, that said, having lived thru both ways, I think there is room for both datacenter and personal computing models.

Already here: proof assistants on the web (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26917401)

ProofWeb http://proofweb.cs.ru.nl/ [cs.ru.nl] is an IDE-like system for teaching logic and formalized proofs through the web. It was designed for teaching logic to undergrad CS students, but it's been successfully used to teach proof assistant courses.

While ProofWeb's database is limited to simple logic exercises, it is actually based on the Coq proof assistant http://coq.inria.fr/ [inria.fr] , which can be used to develop software in an interactive way and even certify that it meets a formal specification. (It uses a functional programming language, similar to Haskell or ML.) My guess is that an extended version of this system could be very useful in CS and software engineering.

I can see it... (2, Funny)

Evan Meakyl (762695) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917415)

... 2012 will be the year of the in-game web-based IDE...

Re:I can see it... (1)

mathx314 (1365325) | more than 5 years ago | (#26918313)

...on the Linux desktop.

But... but... (1)

robbrit (1408421) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917479)

Vim? Please don't leave me...

Re:But... but... (1)

spartacus_prime (861925) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917571)

Real programmers use emacs.

Re:But... but... (5, Funny)

dkleinsc (563838) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917627)

Real programmers use butterflies.

Re:But... but... (1)

robbrit (1408421) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917635)

Damn! You beat me to this one.

No mention of seaside? (1)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917525)

Not only is Seaside still unsurpassed as a web-app framework, it's had a browser-based IDE for years. Is this suddenly a new feature for its competitors?

Re:No mention of seaside? (1)

AKAImBatman (238306) | more than 5 years ago | (#26918165)

Is this the SeaSide you're referring to?

http://www.seaside.st/ [seaside.st]

If so, that was a rather unpleasant experience. The entire page refreshes on every interaction with the controls. That sort of technology has been around for nearly a decade now and has never caught on for a lot of good reasons. Not the least of which is that the back/forward buttons royally mess with the expected state of the widgets.

For an example, try playing around with this tab editor [songbirdocarina.com] for Ocarinas. It looks good on the surface, but after using it for any significant period of time, you'll easily bump into significant flaws in the way it works. Even bumping the wrong key by accident can cause an extra tab to get inserted or work to be lost. Compare this to the more primitive Tab Maker [justinsteward.com] which provides a very smooth experience via DHTML technologies.

What a stupid idea! (1)

Akir (878284) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917529)

Why do I think this? Because most online office application have a EULA, which states, more or less, that anything you write with it belongs to them. Who's saying that this doesn't apply to online IDE services? Software copyright is already insanely convoluted (or maybe just insane?) as it is. I can't even imagine a programmer who would use an application online where his source code is made available on a public-facing server (which is a big deal for those writing propriatary software) when a superior program is available natively for for their platform where they can keep their rights.

However, if the idea is that a company or individual sets up bespin for their private usage, then it would make sense.

The Singularity is Coming! (2, Funny)

hahiss (696716) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917573)

Emacs started out as an editor and now does everything (including browse the web); Mozilla (well, Firefox) started out as a web browser and soon will be able to do everything (including edit code).

But I'll stick to using lynx and cat + ed. ;)

Notepad (3, Funny)

Frankie70 (803801) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917753)

I have stopped using my local Notepad. I use a web based Notepad these days.
It totally rocks.
Planning to try a web based browser next so that I can uninstall Firefox from my machine.

Cloud Based Progamming? (1)

tarlss (627609) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917861)

Is this how we're going to avoid any Eclipse based entanglements? Sounds like a lot of Tibanna Gas.

Re:Cloud Based Progamming? (1)

butalearner (1235200) | more than 5 years ago | (#26917975)

Is this how we're going to avoid any Eclipse based entanglements? Sounds like a lot of Tibanna Gas.

All of these comments and this is the first Star Wars joke. I find our lack of faith disturbing.

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