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Sun Slips Firefox Extension Into Java Update

timothy posted more than 5 years ago | from the we-thought-you-wanted-it dept.

Java 311

pcardno writes "It seems it's not just Microsoft that have spotted a good opportunity to distribute their software through Firefox Addons. On installing the latest annoying, sysbar bubble based Java update, my Firefox informed me that I had a wonderful new Java addon automatically. Here's the addon screenshot. Yes, I could opt out of it, but why are Sun installing Addons to my Firefox without me making specific choices in the application itself? To be clear — I have never chosen to install this Addon, yet it has been installed without my permission with the latest Java Update."

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You get what you pay for. (4, Funny)

Divebus (860563) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943269)

You get what you pay for... and then some.

Re:You get what you pay for. (4, Insightful)

TheKidWho (705796) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943453)

The less you pay, the more you get!!!

And you'll like it too.

Re:You get what you pay for. (3, Funny)

jetsci (1470207) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943521)

...the last time 'Sun' slipped me something I woke up groggy and sore...

Re:You get what you pay for. (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26943677)

or mozilla can fix the fucking bug.

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=446139 [mozilla.org]

How it happened: (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26943709)

I suppose you're wonderin' how this happened:

Sun executives were sitting around one day at a 3-hour lunch getting drunk and making rude remarks to the waitress. One of them said, "How can we sink the company?" After considerable deliberation, one of them had an idea. "I know, we'll get ourselves on Slashdot for doing something dastardly." Another executive said, "Brilliant! No reputable programmer will ever take a job at Sun again."

Then they had to think of something sufficiently sneaky. That's difficult for a drunk person, especially a drunk person that makes millions of dollars a year. That kind of money decreases initiative. Then one said, "We'll just imitate Microsoft! Almost everything they do is sneaky or mean."

And that's what they did.

Warning: Some of this may be fiction. Or, it may be true.

You're right--convenience sucks (5, Informative)

perspectival (906492) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943283)

Yes, now you have Java working in Firefox. Turn it off if you don't like it. Simple.

Re:You're right--convenience sucks (4, Insightful)

Jeff DeMaagd (2015) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943327)

The problem is that this should be an opt-in system, not opt-out later by going in.

You talk about convenience, but they certainly don't offer as convenient of an opt-out as they should have.

Re:You're right--convenience sucks (4, Insightful)

SatanicPuppy (611928) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943355)

In order to have this happen to you, you have to install a completely optional automatic update package from Java, so you are opting in.

That it doesn't ask you again later doesn't mean much.

Re:You're right--convenience sucks (2, Informative)

techno-vampire (666512) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943483)

so you are opting in.

You are opting in to the update, not the Firefox extension. That's installed silently as part of the update. The only reason it was detected was that Firefox told him that it had been installed, after the fact. If it were, as you claim, opt-in, he would have been asked if he wanted it before it was installed. See the difference?

Re:You're right--convenience sucks (5, Funny)

SatanicPuppy (611928) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943509)

It's automatically updating the entire JRE, and you're worried about some little plugin? That's like opting in to unprotected anal sex and then freaking out at the post-coital cuddling.

Re:You're right--convenience sucks (5, Funny)

TinBromide (921574) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943563)

"It's automatically updating the entire JRE, and you're worried about some little plugin? That's like opting in to unprotected anal sex and then freaking out at the post-coital cuddling."

Can you phrase that in some form of a car analogy?

Re:You're right--convenience sucks (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26943597)

Its like getting a call from an auto dealer with the words "Thanks for buying the car, by the way there's a body in the trunk."

Re:You're right--convenience sucks (5, Funny)

Tawnos (1030370) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943615)

It's like opting in to unprotected anal sex in the back of a voltswagen, then freaking out at the small back seat size when in post-coital cuddling?

Re:You're right--convenience sucks (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26943741)

For those of us who don't drive cars, can you phrase that in some form of sticks and stones analogy?

Re:You're right--convenience sucks (4, Funny)

gEvil (beta) (945888) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943775)

A voltswagen? Is that some new electric car I haven't heard about?

Re:You're right--convenience sucks (1)

FearForWings (1189605) | more than 5 years ago | (#26944063)

It's made to have shocking sexual acts in. I hear the optional Tesla seat warmers help to electrify the mood on a cold night.

Re:You're right--convenience sucks (5, Insightful)

cabazorro (601004) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943685)

Like getting a free oil change and complaining about the windshield sticker next service reminder?

Re:You're right--convenience sucks (1)

colinrichardday (768814) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943963)

It's like playing Fast and Furious in rush-hour traffic, then worrying about developing carpal-tunnel syndrome from how you hold the steering wheel.

Re:You're right--convenience sucks (1)

techno-vampire (666512) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943583)

I'm not objecting to the addon as such, but as a matter of principle: if they're going to give you a plugin as part of the update, they should at least have the good manners to ask you first. And, in fact, I'm not going to go looking for it on my copy of Firefox, because it only applies to Windows, and I use Linux.

Re:You're right--convenience sucks (3, Informative)

davester666 (731373) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943437)

Same with Acrobat Reader (at least on Mac OS X, probably also on Windows), where Adobe installs, both without warning OR notification that they install Adobe AIR. And they don't use Apple's installer, so you can't even find out what files they've spammed to you system.

Acrobat Reader 8-109 Mb
Acrobat Reader 9-190 Mb

Re:You're right--convenience sucks (4, Informative)

meatmanek (1062562) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943705)

There's a nifty program called fseventer [fernlightning.com] which lets you watch file changes in real time.

Re:You're right--convenience sucks (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26944035)

I really appreciate all of the hard work the Mozilla team has put into their open source products. I wonder, however, why no one has mentioned them as part of the problem either today, or a couple of days ago when Slashdot had a similar story regarding Microsoft's forced hidden add-on installation.

I see a potential (and easy) solution: Have Firefox deny addition of any add-ons without the end-user explicitly agreeing that they are OK with the addition of the add-on.

[Mozilla used to allow one to download compressed binaries for windows instead of MSI packages. Wish they still had this as one of the download options ...]

Re:You're right--convenience sucks (1)

fburton (1055708) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943601)

Users' choice between opt-in and opt-out should be made systemwide, imo. There should be an option to enforce the wish not to have any software installed on the computer (without the user being asked first).

Re:You're right--convenience sucks (1)

thetoadwarrior (1268702) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943867)

At least you can opt out. I still have MS' .Net framework assistant listed in my add-ons despite uninstalling the software that put it there.

Re:You're right--convenience sucks (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26943341)

Yeah, just like bonzi-buddy or gator or any number of other crap add-ons that installers feel you need.

And resident "quick starters" are just so fucking arrogant (pardon my french), whether it is in the browser or the sys tray.

Re:You're right--convenience sucks (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26943485)

You're right, you have to turn it off - because you sure as hell can't uninstall it.

It's unwanted, it's unneeded (Java works fine without it) and it's useless (all it does is waste memory and make Firefox take even longer to start).

So why does Sun force it onto us without even asking? Damned if I know.

Fortunately it's easy to disable. Unfortunately it gets reenabled every single time you update Java, which is a fairly routine thing thanks to the massive number of security holes lingering in Java. (Even worse, if you allow it to update automatically, this just happens in the background, so your only sign that it got reinstalled behind your back is Firefox randomly being slower).

Honestly, I only have Java installed for a couple of "enterprise" applications I use that require the massive Java bloat. I'd much prefer it keep its hooks out of my browser: Java applets are dead and have been for years. The only reason I have Java at all is thanks to the "enterprise" weenies who think that J2EE makes everything better.

But you can't keep it out of your browser. Install it, and it sticks its hooks into your browser without giving you an option. Even better, it now advertises Open Office and demands that you register Java.

But this isn't really news - Sun's been doing that for at least the past year and quite possibly longer. It's not a new feature.

It's still scummy, and makes me incredibly wary about using any Sun software (eg Open Office and MySQL) for fear of what Sun bloat now lingers in them.

Re:You're right--convenience sucks (4, Informative)

SatanicPuppy (611928) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943695)

You're downloading the wrong packages. If you download from the main java download page [sun.com] it doesn't include the extra crapware.

It will still show a splashscreen for OpenOffice though. Shocking. Quite shocking.

Re:You're right--convenience sucks (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26943831)

I have no idea what you're talking about, because I have no idea where else you'd get Java from. My experiences come from downloading Java from the very link you gave.

Which means that, apparently, there is an even more bloated version of Java out there.

That's a scary thought.

Old (5, Informative)

RockMFR (1022315) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943289)

I mentioned this [slashdot.org] during the discussion about the Microsoft add-on three weeks ago. How is this news now?

Re:Old (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26943465)

Right, problem is, no one cares about what you write.

Re:Old (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26943493)

Here is your cookie.

Beurk (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26943297)

Man, Windows GUI really looks like ass.

Or is that a screenshot from 1990?

Re:Beurk (1)

TheKidWho (705796) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943371)

You judge how well your desktop works based on how "pretty" the GUI looks?

Re:Beurk (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26943429)

He does. He's an Ubuntu user and runs compiz. OOOOH LOOK MOMMY - A SPINNING CUBE!!!!!!11 MOMMY WHEN I CLOSE A WINDOW IT DISAPPEARS IN A PUFF OF SMOKE!!!1 I AM AN ELITE UBUNTU POWER USER AND I HAVE ACCESS TO THE SOURCE CODES!!!

Re:Beurk (0, Troll)

Forty Two Tenfold (1134125) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943555)

He does. He's an MacOS X user and runs Aqua. OOOOH LOOK MOMMY - A SPINNING CUBE!!!!!!11 MOMMY WHEN I CLOSE A WINDOW IT DISAPPEARS IN A PUFF OF SMOKE!!!1 I AM A L33T APPLE FANBOI AND MY SYSTEM KNOWS WHAT I WANT BETTER THAN I DO!! OH AND MY HAND ONLY HAS ONE FINGER!!

FTFY

Re:Beurk (1)

geekboy642 (799087) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943859)

I know you're just trolling, but I would love an extension like Compiz for my mac. Sorry, I'm easily amused, and the professional, simple, clean graphics that come with OS X just get boring.

Re:Beurk (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26943691)

Actually, he didn't say anything about how well it worked. He said it looked like ass.

Surely even a Windows user can comprehend that something can work well *and* look like ass at the same time, right?

Re:Beurk (1)

Lord_Sintra (923866) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943381)

It's using the `Windows 2000` theme, so it's 9 years old. How was Linux/Mac/OS-of-choice looking back in 2000?

Re:Beurk (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26943415)

Better thanks to Enlightenment. ;)

Re:Beurk (1)

_Sprocket_ (42527) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943993)

Kinda like some of the WinXP and Vista options I've seen recently. Seriously. I'd see some themed WinXP desktop and I'd wonder what Linux distro they're using.

Obviously this is something you need.... (1)

dmomo (256005) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943303)

Or so says Sun. That being said... I cannot think of one thing I might need a Java tool bar for. Honestly, I have not read the article yet and am sitting here trying to think of one useful thing such a tool might do for me. Anyone?

Re:Obviously this is something you need.... (1)

dmomo (256005) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943451)

Ahhh.. silly me. It's a toolbar to help Java start more quickly. Anyone find this valuable? Is there a yes/no toggle: "Start quickly, don't start quickly?"

If you encounter a java applet does a popup ask you... "would you like this to start quickly"? Can I disable it from starting quickly? HELP.. java is starting too quickly.

Deep breath.

Please discuss!

Re:Obviously this is something you need.... (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26943625)

Look a lot of apps have agents that load on startup so that when you want them the visual startup time is much shorter, because it has been differed to when the system started up.

Over the history of Java people have complained about how long the JVM startup time is. While Sun has made many improvements in this over the years, the FF add-on just assists this even more. When you launch FF and this add-on is enabled it initializes the JVM and the applet sub-system.

This way if you go to a site that has an applet on it, it will appear and be function much more quickly.

Re:Obviously this is something you need.... (1)

radish (98371) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943813)

It's not a toolbar (what made you think it was?). It's just an extension which preloads some java stuff so that applets load faster. Don't want it? Uninstall it.

Re:Obviously this is something you need.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26944007)

It's not a toolbar (what made you think it was?).

His hate-fueled delusions against anything that he doesn't personally approve of?

Re:Obviously this is something you need.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26943821)

BTW, this is not a toolbar. It's an extension. it's easy enough to remove anyway... http://www.java.com/en/download/help/quickstarter.xml

Re:Obviously this is something you need.... (1)

afidel (530433) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943931)

This simply starts the JRE when you launch Firefox so that there isn't the delay when starting your first applet. It's the same as IE and Office being preloaded with Windows so that they pop up instantly when you click the icons.

Re:Obviously this is something you need.... (1)

thetoadwarrior (1268702) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943925)

It's not a toolbar at all. It's not visible. It just improves Java start times which is why I didn't remove it. It's definitely more helpful than his silly and pretentious Latin generator to prove he's a "master" web designer or the google toolbar he has installed which is rather pointless seeing how Firefox searches google by default in its own search box.

Wait, what? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26943305)

Dude, you installed the java taskbar updater and you're worried that it installed a little Firefox plugin? That thing is pointless as far as I'm concerned, but one of it's "features" is keeping the JRE in your browser up to date. That's what it does. That it adds on a plugin at the same time is trivial because updating the JRE is a much much bigger deal: Java ain't afraid to break shit with it's JRE updates.

If you don't want it pestering you and downloading tiny incremental JRE updates every week or so, don't fricking install it! It's purely optional. Everything works just as well if you don't have it installed, and it's really better to control your java lib upgrades. It's not quite as bad as letting glibc automatically update every time there is a new version, but it's up there.

Stop this right now (3, Interesting)

AlterRNow (1215236) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943343)

Could Firefox add some sort of public/private key extensions signing so I can sign extensions I want to use? Then unsigned extensions wouldn't be loaded and this sort of thing could be stopped ( by the technical minded anyway ).

Re:Stop this right now (4, Funny)

dmomo (256005) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943425)

Sounds like a great idea for an extension!

Re:Stop this right now (1, Insightful)

TheKidWho (705796) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943495)

Maybe, but the source code is available, why don't YOU do it?

Malware (3, Funny)

MoZ-RedShirt (192423) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943349)

Watch out! It seems that some other malicious updaters installed IEtab and a twitter addon in your firefox, too!

Re:Malware (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26943653)

and Google TOOLbar

I thought Google already was in the the little search bar by default anyway, what do you need another toolbar for?

Firefox exntension probably covered in the EULA (1)

normandr (69161) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943375)

which no one reads

Re:Firefox exntension probably covered in the EULA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26943801)

Yeah, well, life's too short to waste it reading all that legal drivel. I click OK so the program will install, not because I actually agree to anything. Besides I let a feral cat that lives in my front yard install everything now.

simple solution, (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26943391)

click dis-the fuck-able

Re:simple solution, (1)

legirons (809082) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943459)

click dis-the fuck-able

Simple solution: read the EULAs in full. And when you don't like them (e.g. Google Earth EULA which gives them root access to your PC) then don't install.

And anyone whose product or business depends on you having Java installled... well this is a good discussion to point them to when you call their support line saying "it just doesn't work"
 

Relax... (0, Flamebait)

djupedal (584558) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943397)

"First you bitch about the baby, then you bitch 'cause we're not married!"

Maybe the add-on is required by F'fox in order to enable new shizzy feature xyz - get over it.

If you really want something to bitch over, think about all the stuf that you NEVER know that comes deep within the package...

I think you have a bigger problem (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26943405)

It looks like your desktop color depth comes from an 8-bit Nintendo pallet :(

some info, please (1)

bcrowell (177657) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943407)

What is a "sysbar bubble based Java update?"

The whole thing seems like a total yawner to me. When I install a package on my ubuntu box, it will typically have side-effects. It may have to install other software that it depends on, and possibly make changes to my system's configuration (e.g., the default if you install apache or ssl is to activate the relevant service). I may or may not agree with Canonical and Debian's choices. If I disagree with them, I can either override them, or choose a different distro that I think does a better job in this area.

He seems to be having an experience on Windows where he's unhappy with the side-effect decisions Sun has made. Although it's on Windows, it seems to be basically the same as the type of issue you can get with a Linux distro, or with any other OS. One possible difference is that packaging of FOSS on non-free OSes generally sucks to high heaven compared to Linux -- and you generally have far fewer choices, and there's nobody looking out for your interests as a user. Well, you make your decision to use Windows and that means you've made your decision to use a system where FOSS packaging sucks.

Re:some info, please (5, Informative)

SatanicPuppy (611928) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943569)

It's an automatic update watcher that runs all the time in your taskbar and keeps your JRE up to date.

It's an optional feature that is required by absolutely nothing, and one of the things it does is updates your browser. Apparently now it adds an extra update that does some prefetching that makes java load faster, and we must all riot because we didn't specifically ask for that one.

Unlike Microsoft, this one benign and documented (4, Informative)

salahx (100975) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943417)

All this plugin does is speed up loading of Java applets. Its benign, and Sun provides instructions on how to turn it off: http://www.java.com/en/download/help/quickstarter.xml [java.com] .

Re:Unlike Microsoft, this one benign and documente (2, Insightful)

ADRA (37398) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943461)

Yeah, what a complete waste of a story. It is installed with java which preloads core java so that when your browser runs applets, they start faster... Damn those frigging bastards at sun for making my life easier!

Re:Unlike Microsoft, this one benign and documente (3, Interesting)

KiloByte (825081) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943723)

It preloads all the bloatness of Java, every single time, even if you installed it just for a single page you visited half a year ago.

Re:Unlike Microsoft, this one benign and documente (1)

nabsltd (1313397) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943731)

Yeah, what a complete waste of a story. It is installed with java which preloads core java so that when your browser runs applets, they start faster...

They start faster because every time you open a browser window, the "Java quick start" has to take time to load, even if it was already loaded. If you don't believe me, try timing it.

Also, you now have memory used by a program "just in case you might want to use it someday". And, it's possible to configure the Java runtime to not be available as a browser add-on, but still allow you to run Java apps on your computer. Any bets on whether this extension will load regardless of your browser settings for Java?

Re:Unlike Microsoft, this one benign and documente (2, Insightful)

batkiwi (137781) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943543)

What does the MS one do that's not benign?

Re:Unlike Microsoft, this one benign and documente (4, Insightful)

zullnero (833754) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943673)

Neither is benign. When you tamper with a customer's third party software, you 1. Ask them first, and 2. Let them back out easily. Microsoft and Sun did neither of these. Not only are they spitting on good software standards, they're spitting on their users by doing this.

Re:Unlike Microsoft, this one benign and documente (1)

mysidia (191772) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943747)

You install the Java plugin, you expect it to modify your browser.

Still, I would like Firefox to provide better controls of how plugins CAN and CAN'T be installed.

In particular, I would like the browser to ask for approval during startup before a newly installed plugin can be loaded, for the first time.

The approval process should be done in a way that a plugin can't easily fake approval, and if I reject it (I.E. Use of a settings file that only FF can update), the plugin stays disabled.

Re:Unlike Microsoft, this one benign and documente (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26943593)

So, in other words, it does the exact same thing the .NET Firefox extension does, except unlike .NET, it does it for things that no one still uses.

Java applets are dead. I can't remember the last time I ran into one.

I don't need Sun bloating up Firefox to make something that NO ONE USES run slightly faster.

Re:Unlike Microsoft, this one benign and documente (1)

headLITE (171240) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943663)

Yeah maybe, but Sun wants JavaFX (which is based on Java) to be a Flash killer, and for that I'm guessing it needs to load a lot faster than the typical Java applet used to...

Re:Unlike Microsoft, this one benign and documente (2, Insightful)

MrMista_B (891430) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943613)

So if someone breaks into your house and cleans your kitchen, you'd think that's okay too?

Re:Unlike Microsoft, this one benign and documente (1)

Tony Hoyle (11698) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943739)

Actually that'd be fine with me... my kitchen is a mess.

Re:Unlike Microsoft, this one benign and documente (2, Funny)

StormyWeather (543593) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943889)

Hell if they will do the bathrooms too I'd pay them.

Re:Unlike Microsoft, this one benign and documente (1)

TorKlingberg (599697) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943669)

I would bet it also makes loading Firefox take longer and uses up RAM even when not using Java.

Re:Unlike Microsoft, this one benign and documente (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26943901)

Why can't Java be fast to begin with?

Pre-loading doesn't make it fast, it only makes it seem fast.

Is this case a big deal? (2)

dwalsh (87765) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943421)

Applets, you have heard of them?

When you install / upgrade Java, you get support for the latest Java runtime in your browser to run those applets. It has been thus since the olden times (the mid-nineties when Java was launched).

From the description, this is just a performance optimization so the runtime is loaded and you don't get a delay when there is an applet in the page.

Whether I am right about what the plugin does or not, installing / upgrading the Java Runtime Edition has always affected your browser.

Re:Is this case a big deal? (1)

gad_zuki! (70830) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943641)

Right. There's always been a java extension/plugin/control etc. I guess slashdot is targeting the 'OMG ALL CORPORATIONS SUCK AND ARE AFTER ME!!!!' crowd, which sadly, gets ad impressions.

bitch, bitch, bitch. You wanted Java, right? (4, Insightful)

ClintJCL (264898) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943445)

And of course if it asked you and it said no, complainers like you would be complaining about how Firefox doesn't properly support JAVA later.

And of course, if you were a dumbass who didn't understand what extensions were, you might say No out of fear, and then later decide you don't like java. And then later decide buying an iPHone isn't that bad, because it doesn't support java, but java never works anyway.

At some point, you have to let the machine work for you. Remember all the people who complained about windows asking your permission before doing anything possibly harmful? Seems like whether you ask people or not, someone is going to whine on either side of the fence.

In a world of whiners, I'd rather have Javascript work on their browsers.

There's enough problems with things BROKEN because people DON'T do automatic updates. Then when updates to happen automatically, people STILL whine.

Can't win.

Re:bitch, bitch, bitch. You wanted Java, right? (5, Insightful)

db32 (862117) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943577)

Java != Javascript.

Re:bitch, bitch, bitch. You wanted Java, right? (1)

Janek Kozicki (722688) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943701)

I assigned F12 hotkey to quickly toggle javascript on/off. I don't need a hotkey to toggle java on/off because I use it so rarely, that I can go to menu and click to enable it.

Re:bitch, bitch, bitch. You wanted Java, right? (1)

r7 (409657) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943829)

And of course if it asked you

From the screenshot it doesn't appear there was anything to ask, as it was disabled. Installed but not enabled would seem to be as opt-in as plugins or extensions get. It is certainly better than the ones Mozilla installs that you can't even uninstall. Not different from what Ubuntu and MS are doing.
What we need now is an open repository for plugins. The current Mozilla-managed repo is a bit too Google-friendly for my tastes, especially when I'm looking for the Scroogle plugin.

Re:bitch, bitch, bitch. You wanted Java, right? (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26943989)

java is to javascript as car is to carpet.

Quickstarter.... (5, Insightful)

nvrrobx (71970) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943447)

It helps preload the JVM so that any Java applets load faster.

It's not some evil conspiracy.

You told it to update your computer. It didn't tell you exactly what it was doing. Does Microsoft Update tell you everything it's going to touch?

If you don't like it, run Linux, install SELinux and block everything by default.

Not trying to sound like a dick, but this really is a non-issue.

Re:Quickstarter.... (1)

FishWithAHammer (957772) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943523)

You told it to update your computer. It didn't tell you exactly what it was doing. Does Microsoft Update tell you everything it's going to touch?

If you ask, yes.

(Even eeeeeeeeeeeevil WGA is in the list!)

Re:Quickstarter.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26943565)

So if we switch over to Solaris then we don't have to worry about Sun spying on us without our knowledge? Sounds like someone is overstepping their bounds a bit. With Microsoft, you know what you pay for and that's what you get. OSS works the same way but on a different spectrum. To be honest with you, I don't know where this fits.

Re:Quickstarter.... (1)

Seth Kriticos (1227934) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943751)

Running Linux /w Firefox here. No default Java extension in sight here. If I want Java, then I have to use the system package manager and install one version of it purposefully (either the sun or the open source version).

With Windows it was always like giving up freedom for ease of use. Now it does stuff to ease use and you are all complaining. Can you please decide, if you want freedom or dictatorship? Both don't work together.

Bug 446139 (1)

Val314 (219766) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943455)

Just FYI: the RFE to remove those addons [mozilla.org] was marked WONTFIX by mozilla, because "they should be removed by the Installer that put the files there".

IMO it has to be possible to remove them from the Add-On manager.

Re:Bug 446139 (1)

ADRA (37398) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943715)

Why cry about a plugin. If you really hate the add-on enough then just disable it. Hate it so much that you can't live with it? Uninstall java and choose to never use it again.

Same applies to AVG Internet Security (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26943487)

I recently installed AVG Internet Security Suite on Windows, and noticed that it decided to install anti-malware software in Firefox.

I'm of two minds about this: on the one hand, I'm glad they're supporting Firefox, but on the other hand, I don't remember agreeing to add this extension to Firefox. It's ugly, takes up too much space, and has prominent buttons that I don't care about, and aren't easily disabled.

I would have been much happier if I'd been given the choice to install it or not; I would have. But if I'd known it would uglify Firefox, I would have made more of a point of getting a product that didn't.

Java came from the browser (0)

physburn (1095481) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943585)

Its not surprising java installs itself to firefox, java started as a language to run applets in the browser and still needs to be there. These days its nearly all cross-scripting prone javascript widgets instead of applets. I can program either, but frankly i'd rather have robust standardised java to program in, then different DOM from every browser javascript. Can someone get bring the applet back, maybe java-fx (actually the library with it, not the new scripting language, will help.

Re:Java came from the browser (1)

nabsltd (1313397) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943803)

Its not surprising java installs itself to firefox, java started as a language to run applets in the browser and still needs to be there.

This is about the 10th post that just doesn't understand the issue.

Running of Java applets within Firefox is controlled by a plugin. What is being installed by Java is an additional addon that is in the "extension" category, and is not required for running Java applets.

All this new extension does is preload Java when you start your browser, so that Java applets will appear to start faster. They won't really start any faster, since the pre-loaded code can be swapped out just like any other code. Likewise, if you have enough RAM, after the first Java applet runs, the Java runtime would be cached and future applets will start more quickly.

Even if applets do start faster, you are just changing when the time is taken (at browser load or at applet load).

What did you update? Java or Firefox? (1)

angel'o'sphere (80593) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943635)

If you did: "sysbar bubble based Java update" ... I assume you updated Java. In that caser it is completely correct that you get the relevant plug ins for every browser on your system installad as well. That is what Java always did so far on any system I had (Windows, Linux, Mac).
If you did a Firefox update then it is not Suns fault, but the fault of the guys who bundled the update that you where not asked beforehand.
I think the attitude towards Software Providers may it be MS or Sun, or any other, should be a bit more neutral. You have 2 completely "free as no fee" software packages (Java and Firefox) on your system, and you bitch about getting a few megabytes more than planned (which likely had downloaded later anyway manually!!) ... sorry, sounds pathetic to me.

angel'o'sphere

Haven't you heard? (0, Troll)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943765)

You don't own or are allowed to control the PC.

Just shut up and smile, we know best for you. "Where do you want us to take you today? Never mind we will take you where we want to go."

Possible Firefox Feature Needed? (1)

finity (535067) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943873)

So, you install some software which automatically installs a Firefox addon. Then the next time Firefox runs the addon is automatically enabled? I know that's how plugins are installed. It would be nice if third-parties just didn't do this, but it seems like a change in Firefox must be made to prevent this.

Secure systems must include measures to prevent tampering. Installing code that automatically executes is most certainly tampering, and if my estimate of how this works is correct, I'd call this a Firefox security bug.

It may not be worth it, or even possible with current hardware, to prevent all software from installing addons "under the radar." Still, I'd bet that Firefox could incorporate a more secure way of keeping tabs on enabled addons.

With the Firefox plugin feature, Firefox could keep a list of installed plugins, their md5sums and their filenames. It could then hash this list and store the result somewhere. This would make it easy to detect changes to the installed plugins and prevent programs from simply changing the list of installed plugins. Malware could simply change the list then rewrite the hash, but I'm not sure you could ever get around security through obscurity (in this case) with a normal Linux install and consumer hardware. When different software is run as the same user and without any kind of sandboxing, this is what you get.

Maybe Linux distros need to make a change to enable more sandbox-type security. As Linux's popularity increases, I'll bet we see more of this behavior, just as we see so frequently in Windows. All the software already exists to implement this fairly well, and it's not like disk space is an issue anymore.

Microsoft should be making this change in Windows if building a more secure system is one of their goals.

Even mozilla is doing this though... (1)

TheSimkin (639033) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943907)

I updated to Firefox 3.0.6 and it installed a Yahoo tool bar and menu without me asking!

Because they should? (1)

BitZtream (692029) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943927)

So, they get the majority of the users out there with working Java in their web browser, which they would expect if they have Java installed, and in the process they piss off a few geeks who can't see beyond their own little basement walls.

Pardon me if I find this whole thing a little amusing. If you want Firefox to take over the world it has to be user friendly. As any Vista user will tell you, prompting you to do every little thing is fucking annoying, so they've taken a more traditional approach and just make Firefox aware of it out of the box.

So while there may be a great uproar on slashdot today, no one really cares or some actually appreciate the feature.

Why don't you bitch about Chrome automatically working with Flash or Java on your system out of the box?

It gets worse (1)

thetoadwarrior (1268702) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943979)

It seems Java modifies all browsers without you asking to allow them to run applets. That's not what I installed Java for!

I don't see the problem. (3, Interesting)

argent (18001) | more than 5 years ago | (#26944003)

There's lots of software that installs browser addons automatically, without even asking you. That's been normal and expected behavior for a decade, it's long since past time to raise Caine over this one.

I think Sun should be accoladed for giving you the option to opt out.

Ever try to install Acrobat without getting the browser plugin? You have to rummage around in the Acrobat directory and remove the plugin component or else EVERY TIME you run Acrobat the plugin will be reinstalled.

INDIGNATION! (0)

wampus (1932) | more than 5 years ago | (#26944039)

INDIGNATION!

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