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S3 Graphics Responds About Linux Support

timothy posted more than 5 years ago | from the progress-is-progress dept.

Displays 114

V!NCENT writes "Phoronix has an update on S3's Linux driver state: 'We are doing an internal build of the Chrome 500 Linux driver to incorporate some of the additional hardware features and upgrades (over the Chrome 400 Series GPUs). If you want to test the Linux now, the Chrome 400 Series drivers also support the Chrome 500 Series since it is a unified driver architecture.'" (This after the beef that Phoronix raised about S3's failure to deliver on promises of better Linux support for the 500 series.)

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I bet (5, Funny)

jetsci (1470207) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943595)

that this wouldn't fly with Windows. They always get top of the line drivers delivered promptly...

/jealous

Re:I bet (5, Informative)

Darkness404 (1287218) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943757)

They always get top of the line drivers delivered promptly...

What version of Windows have you been using? Most Windows drivers are horrible! They require third-party apps to be run in order to use the hardware, frequently install "quick start" or other memory hog applications to be run always in the background, usually break when going from different Windows versions (and sometimes service packs), have little to no maintenance, are a pain to install, impossible to find without the CD or going to a site that seems suspicious, and more often than not are the cause of all Windows crashes.

Sure, Windows has more third-party drivers than Linux, but Windows drivers are not quality, not at all.

Re:I bet (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26943897)

WWOOOSSSSHHHH

Re:I bet (4, Informative)

whoever57 (658626) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943913)

I have recently found that ATI doesn't support XP SP3 for their legacy hardware. Try to install it and it claims that there is no compatible hardware.

Re:I bet (1)

hairyfeet (841228) | more than 5 years ago | (#26946113)

How legacy are we talking here? How old, which card? If you are going to make a statement like that please give details because I have a lot of clients using seriously old hardware with SP3(including one with an 8MB Matrox card) and so far no problems. So please give us some details.

Re:I bet (1)

whoever57 (658626) | more than 5 years ago | (#26946327)

How legacy are we talking here? How old, which card?

Any of the Rage cards. Rage 128/128 Pro, Rage Pro, Rage XL, so I guess we are talking about cards introduced 10 years ago.

Re:I bet (1)

fishnuts (414425) | more than 5 years ago | (#26946527)

I beg to differ. I put a Rage 128 Pro (with capture) in my shuttle/athlon box, because the on-board S3 save sucked ass and used shared memory. XP SP3 recognized it without a hitch, and I just had to install ATI's older catalyst software to use the capture and enable the advanced video control panel tabs.

Re:I bet (1)

whoever57 (658626) | more than 4 years ago | (#26946709)

I beg to differ. I put a Rage 128 Pro (with capture) in my shuttle/athlon box, because the on-board S3 save sucked ass and used shared memory. XP SP3 recognized it without a hitch, and I just had to install ATI's older catalyst software to use the capture and enable the advanced video control panel tabs.

Yes, SP3 installs MS's slow driver. As to ATI's driver -- I can't find a way to get it installed. All that is on AMD's site is the driver/software bundle, which refuses to install on my system because it claims that there is no hardware supported by the bundle.

Whose driver are you running?

Re:I bet (2, Informative)

hairyfeet (841228) | more than 4 years ago | (#26947759)

Let the old repair guy give you a hand there bud. And here [amd.com] you go. If that one don't work look up your specific model at driverguide [driverguide.com] . It requires a registration, but it is free to register and takes less than 5 minutes. I hope this sets you to rights.

Re:I bet (1)

Jamie's Nightmare (1410247) | more than 5 years ago | (#26944181)

They require third-party apps to be run in order to use the hardware, frequently install "quick start" or other memory hog applications to be run always in the background

Frequent for Printers and Webcams perhaps, but even so, not always required.

Take my Logitech Webcam (Communicate STX) for example. Yes, it installs a tray utility and a Windows Service, both of which can be disabled and the camera functions perfectly. In Linux? Dead as a doornail.

Re:I bet (1)

Xabraxas (654195) | more than 5 years ago | (#26944837)

The Communicate STX should work with the gspca driver included in the kernel although I haven't tried it myself. My Logitech Notebook Pro works fne with the UVC driver.

Re:I bet (1)

lordtoran (1063300) | more than 5 years ago | (#26945267)

The Communicate STX works perfectly in Linux. That's the reason I bought the cam in the first place.

Re:I bet (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26944283)

You sir fail! OP was clearly sarcastic. You should be modded -9000 ignorant.

Re:I bet (4, Insightful)

GF678 (1453005) | more than 5 years ago | (#26944563)

Sure, Windows has more third-party drivers than Linux, but Windows drivers are not quality, not at all.

God I get really angry sometimes at comments like this. People assume that their own experiences are all that counts.

My experiences:

* My Intel X3100 (965GM) graphics chipset runs faster and supports OpenGL 2 in Windows instead of running far slower and only OpenGL 1.4 in Linux. So, it's faster and more capable. I can even do things like force aspect ration when running at a lower resolution, something I can't do with these drivers in Linux.

* My old Canon inkjet printer provides more information in Windows. I can bring up a window showing the ink levels so I can have a rough estimate as to when I should go out to get more cartridges. I can also force a manual clean of the heads if necessary, something I cannot do with the generic drivers in Linux.

* My Realtek HD audio audio chipset has a really dodgy volume ramp-up in Linux. From about 0% to 50% it is fairly steady, but quiet. From 50% onwards it seems to change the amount of volume that is increased per each percentage tick. It's not linear. Very annoying since I end up lacking the fine-grained volume control that I can get with the drivers in Windows. A change in a volume tick in Windows at the higher levels is subtle, but in Linux it's much more noticeable. Might not sound like a big issue but it is when the volume doesn't work like your brain thinks it should!

* My webcam in Windows has additional controls such as horizontal mirroring of the image, automatic gain control, etc. I am not presented with such functions in Linux due to the primitive development of webcam drivers.

So in short - if you ignore what DOESN'T work very well in Linux, well then no wonder a lot of people try it, find it lacking and go back to Windows. Things will never improve in ignorance.

Re:I bet (2, Informative)

Xabraxas (654195) | more than 5 years ago | (#26944857)

Well I have found that jack shit works with 64-bit versions of Windows and since I left 32-bit land 2 years ago I don't really want to go back. 64-bit driver support is definitely subpar compared to Linux. Hell, the whole 64-bit environment is subpar on Windows compared to Linux.

Re:I bet (1)

daybot (911557) | more than 5 years ago | (#26945289)

[Windows] 64-bit driver support is definitely subpar compared to Linux. Hell, the whole 64-bit environment is subpar on Windows compared to Linux.

Ah fuck it. The whole environment is subpar on Windows compared to Linux!

Re:I bet (1)

GF678 (1453005) | more than 5 years ago | (#26945413)

Which version of 64-bit Windows though, XP or Vista?

Windows XP 64-bit is considered to be pretty crap, but Vista 64-bit is quite nice. For the record, every device on my laptop has a 64-bit driver providing exactly the same features and capabilities as the 32-bit ones, which was nice when I made the jump to 64-bit.

But what do I know, apart from how to use computers. Heh.

Re:I bet (1)

niteice (793961) | more than 4 years ago | (#26947195)

I'm reasonably certain that to get the full Vista WHQL logo a manufacturer has to provide both 32-bit and 64-bit drivers.

Re:I bet (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26946513)

God I get really angry sometimes at comments like this. People assume that their own experiences are all that counts.

My experiences, on the other hand, should be taken into consideration as something that counts.

Wait, what?

Re:I bet (1)

rusl (1255318) | more than 4 years ago | (#26947725)

yeah!

I wish I had more experience like the unrealistically linux optimistic guy than the pro-windows troll.

Unfortunately most hardware drivers I have encountered are less capable or user friendly in linux.

However, linux makes up for it by being so much more sane, something that makes sense and I can fix if broken, something with the most awesome free tools and most of the advice about it is useful vs. for windoze the advice is to either reboot or buy something I don't need. Also the hardware interaction isn't only about drivers. I switched out my motherboard and swapped around HDD without battling an eyelash in linux and I think Windows literally tries to prevent you doing such things (proprietary security issues)

Re:I bet (3, Informative)

cheater512 (783349) | more than 4 years ago | (#26947871)

It varies. Lets leave it at that.

The HP Printer drivers for Linux are *far* superior to the Windows ones in every way.
Not only are they on SourceForge (but made by HP themselves), but they support every feature you can name. Network printing, fax, scanner, card reader and so on.
Checking the ink levels is more precise than on Windows.
They all tie in properly with the appropriate Linux subsystems. CUPS, Sane, etc...

FYI I'm using one of their networked multifunction centers.
Network autodetection on Linux is quick and painless and using it over the network doesnt add/remove any features compared to USB.

Not to mention that the Windows drivers are 250mb to download, and the Linux ones are 11mb for the same thing.

Re:I bet (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#26948383)

* My Realtek HD audio audio chipset has a really dodgy volume ramp-up in Linux. From about 0% to 50% it is fairly steady, but quiet. From 50% onwards it [...]

Sorry to pick up on only one point, and it doesn't invalidate your argument, but:

I've come across this before, and the chances are that what you're seeing is due to the windows drivers (in this one instance) not making full use of the hardware. Start alsamixer in a terminal, and check that each fader isn't showing more than 0dB gain. If it is, it's almost certainly only really adding distortion, and that's probably what's causing you to feel the volume change so much.

Re:I bet (1)

Tubal-Cain (1289912) | more than 5 years ago | (#26944933)

They require third-party apps to be run in order to use the hardware, frequently install "quick start" or other memory hog applications to be run always in the background....

While often included, I have never known that trash to be strictly necessary to use the hardware. I just use that New Hardware Detected Wizard to select the .inf and .sys files from the CD (and favor .zip over .exe drivers from online).
nVidia is a major thorn in my side over this issue.

Re:I bet (1)

khellendros1984 (792761) | more than 5 years ago | (#26946565)

Sometimes the extra apps are needed for some hardware-provided functionality, like running the display in portrait mode rather than landscape, color correction options, and for some of the odder resolution and multi-display options.

Re:I bet (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#26946627)

I think windows could be a lot better, but the doom and gloom you describe is a bit over the top.
Ive been using windows for many years...been using many 3rd party devices, some el cheapo, some top brand name. Only once in the last decade did I have windows drivers cause a problem. I had to update my wifi driver because it was causing restarts. I do understand that vista had more issues, but geez. MS are damned if they do and damned if they dont. If MS dont break compatibility and write new code, people say they are re-hashing the same bullshit over and over. If ANY compatibility gets broken in the name of progress, people like you swoop in.

Re:I bet (1)

Kjella (173770) | more than 5 years ago | (#26944521)

They always get top of the line drivers delivered promptly...

No, but whatever they're getting tends to be better than Linux users of the same hardware is getting. There are quite a few companies out there that seem to live in some kind of Dilbertish "What suckers can we fool into buying our product today?" and screw repurchases. Pretty much all this hardware with crap windows drivers are linux paperweights. Companies with good windows drivers are a mixed bunch when it comes to Linux support, but very few and far between are any examples I can think of where the Linux drivers are better. End result is that there's a smaller selection of Linux friendly quality hardware than quality hardware in general, and if you buy crap then really no OS will help you. No real surprise there.

Re:I bet (2, Informative)

Xabraxas (654195) | more than 5 years ago | (#26944875)

It all depends on what you're doing. My linux wireless drivers support monitor mode and injection while the Windows drivers do not. Other than that there is nothing I can think of that the Windows wireless drivers do that my Linux wireless drivers cannot do.

Re:I bet (1)

cheater512 (783349) | more than 4 years ago | (#26947881)

Nearly no Windows driver supports monitor or injection. ;)

AC Responds About Linux Support (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26943611)

it sucks

as Bruce Perens famously said at Linux SF Con 2006, Linux is only free if your time has no value

Me, I'll continue to use XP and Windows 7, which BTW, S3 Graphics fully supports

Re:AC Responds About Linux Support (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26943633)

And I'll continue to use Mac OS X, which BTW, S3 Graphics doesn't care about.

Re:AC Responds About Linux Support (5, Insightful)

Dunbal (464142) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943773)

as Bruce Perens famously said at Linux SF Con 2006, Linux is only free if your time has no value

      Three years is a long time in computing years. Too bad you're missing out on everything linux has to offer nowadays. Enjoy your vendor lock-in, and don't forget, Microsoft wants you to pay the tax again in a year or so.

Re:AC Responds About Linux Support (1)

Mishotaki (957104) | more than 5 years ago | (#26944577)

as Bruce Perens famously said at Linux SF Con 2006, Linux is only free if your time has no value

Three years is a long time in computing years. Too bad you're missing out on everything linux has to offer nowadays. Enjoy your vendor lock-in, and don't forget, Microsoft wants you to pay the tax again in a year or so.

So how much more time do you pay with Windows in time? it takes a frikking full day to update XP when you get up to date versions of Linux pretty easily...

Re:AC Responds About Linux Support (1)

hairyfeet (841228) | more than 5 years ago | (#26946181)

It takes a grand total of 28 minutes with Autopatcher [autopatcher.com] , 38 minutes if you add all the extras like Java,.NET,DirectX, along with the freebies like powertoys. And if you only have an XP SP2 disk, or even 2K3 or 2K, just use XP ISO Builder [softpedia.com] to make you a new disc with the newer service pack slipstreamed. It is so easy to use my oldest made his own reinstall disc so he could have the OS tweaked his way. You can make it unattended, add 3rd party programs, tweak the services, pretty much anything you want to do

With autopatcher it is all quite simple and only requires a single reboot to install all the patches, and with XP ISO builder even a child can use it if they read the labels. So why would you do it the old and busted way of using Windows Updates? And with autopatcher burn it to CD and you can update as many PCs as you like, even those on dialup. Great tools to have in your toolbox.

Re:AC Responds About Linux Support (1)

Albert Sandberg (315235) | more than 4 years ago | (#26947511)


Password:
server@> sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get upgrade
$>

I don't even have to go to the server to upgrade, no touch of cd's, nothing. And if you do it once a week it'll take less than a minute. Beat that :-)

Re:AC Responds About Linux Support (1)

Albert Sandberg (315235) | more than 4 years ago | (#26947515)

damn code block, somehow I managed to screw up the ssh 192.168.1.100 at the top ....

Re:AC Responds About Linux Support (1)

hairyfeet (841228) | more than 4 years ago | (#26947731)

And what do you do for customers on dialup? With autopatcher I simply burn the folder to disc.

Re:AC Responds About Linux Support (1)

cheater512 (783349) | more than 4 years ago | (#26947891)

Err simply burn the deb/rpm/tarballs to a disc? ....duh

Re:AC Responds About Linux Support (1)

hairyfeet (841228) | more than 4 years ago | (#26949833)

And I can hand THAT to a customer and they will understand how to use it? With autopatcher they have a nice GUI with everything labeled: Critical patches, bug fixes, add-ons, extras, etc. And I can take about 30 seconds and even make a nice autorun for the CD so when it is inserted they get the programs and can make their choices. What exactly do you think a home user is going to be able to accomplish with a bunch of tarballs?

Right HERE is the attitude thing I have talked about when it comes to Linux. Just because YOU are comfortable with CLI and compiling doesn't mean the vast majority of PC users would have even the tiniest chance in hell of pulling that off. It is just as I posted earlier when trying to find a solution for Lexmark all in one printers and getting "LOL, Luser, tell them to buy another printer! LOL Winblowz" which of course would have gotten me fired so I simply wiped the Linux PCs and put Windows on them. Problem solved. Until Linux can be used without EVER needing ANY CLI interaction by the user, and that includes fixes to common problems, than I am sorry but Linux simply isn't ready for the desktops of the majority of PC users. Sorry, no sale.

Re:AC Responds About Linux Support (1)

cheater512 (783349) | more than 4 years ago | (#26951421)

Last time I checked with Ubuntu, it had a pretty GUI with the option to use a cd as a source.
It also came with all the 'extras' which you mention, out of the box, so burning them isnt required.

And this is the problem with people like you.
You look at Linux 10 years ago and assume it hasnt changed since then.
Linux advances at a far greater rate than Windows.

There are dicks on both sides. Dont become one yourself.

Re:AC Responds About Linux Support (1)

jimicus (737525) | more than 4 years ago | (#26947643)

You have no idea how many people - on both sides of the Linux/MS divide - simply never stop to think to themselves "Hang on a minute, this is a boring repetitive task which takes a long time - exactly the kind of thing computers excel at - and I'm not making the computer do it?!"

Re:AC Responds About Linux Support (3, Insightful)

Kjella (173770) | more than 5 years ago | (#26944765)

as Bruce Perens famously said at Linux SF Con 2006, Linux is only free if your time has no value

Three years is a long time in computing years. Too bad you're missing out on everything linux has to offer nowadays.

Yes, I know he's trolling but you're not really countering his point. In the context that Bruce Perens used it, Linux isn't free nor will it ever be. Neither is paying for Windows. Neither is pirating Windows. Every hour spent on maintaining or fixing your machine, or any time wasted because you're less efficient in one OS than in another OS, or every time you must use an inferior application to one you could have been using you're losing value. It's fundamental opprtunity cost even if I'm not paid for that hour, where I could say work an hour less and still have the same net amount of personal time left. It's not just the question "Does Linux do everything I want?" but also "Is Linux more efficient at doing what I want?" or at least not worse than the price of Windows + apps. I'm using the desktop now and while I can say that it works out quite well, I'm not sure I can say it's a big win on TCO.

Re:AC Responds About Linux Support (2, Insightful)

swillden (191260) | more than 5 years ago | (#26944953)

Every hour spent on maintaining or fixing your machine, or any time wasted because you're less efficient in one OS than in another OS

So, what you're saying is that Linux PAYS me to use it, since I'm far more efficient with it than with another OS.

Linux isn't free, it's BETTER than free!

Re:AC Responds About Linux Support (2, Informative)

PhoenixAtlantios (991132) | more than 5 years ago | (#26945995)

You could argue that the time freed by completing the tasks you desire more efficiently in Linux allows you to perform more paid work, but claiming that therefore means Linux is paying you to use it is entirely deceptive and doesn't really advance the argument for Linux further as much as it causes people to gawk at the perceived intelligence of its vocal users. I'm quite sure anyone running around saying Windows pays them to use it because Photoshop is more efficient for them to use than Gimp would be smacked down with logic quite quickly, even if it provides them with additional time to complete additional paid work the OS isn't actually paying them.

No doubt I just got trolled, but I think if people try using this sort of argument to convince people to use Linux they're simply going to make themselves look deceptive rather than helpful.

Re:AC Responds About Linux Support (1)

swillden (191260) | more than 4 years ago | (#26949097)

I was criticizing the GP's logic, not advancing an argument. I thought that was clear.

Re:AC Responds About Linux Support (1)

danomac (1032160) | more than 4 years ago | (#26950131)

Every hour spent on maintaining or fixing your machine, or any time wasted because you're less efficient in one OS than in another OS, or every time you must use an inferior application to one you could have been using you're losing value.

Eh, I support both Windows and linux boxes at work. Far more time is spent maintaining/fixing Windows. It's not even remotely close. So that begs the question... why pay extra for something that costs a lot to maintain anyway? Training users only goes so far.

Re:AC Responds About Linux Support (1, Interesting)

Zero__Kelvin (151819) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943953)

That is correct. And if your time does have value then Linux is clearly the better choice. So let us recap:
  1. If your time has no value, then Linux is free as in beer and a much better solution than Windows.
  2. If your time has value then Linux is not completely free as in beer but is still far, far, far less expensive, and is still the only intelligent choice between Linux and Windows.

Re:AC Responds About Linux Support (2, Interesting)

DrSkwid (118965) | more than 5 years ago | (#26944219)

Because no-one ever had to re-install Windows.

My time isn't free, people *pay* me quite a lot of money to maintain their Linux systems.

Re:AC Responds About Linux Support (2, Insightful)

rajafarian (49150) | more than 5 years ago | (#26944351)

I work in IT (the dreaded Helpdesk job) and I have made a lot of money supporting Windows systems since Windows 95.

Re:AC Responds About Linux Support (2, Informative)

Tubal-Cain (1289912) | more than 5 years ago | (#26944961)

So obviously both Linux and Windows have a time cost.
Although there still is only one that has an up-front money cost.

Re:AC Responds About Linux Support (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26945325)

Well I have had my computer for almost two years and I still have yet to reinstall Windows Vista, or either of the Linux installs for that matter.

Brandon

P.S. I'm a different AC

Re:AC Responds About Linux Support (1)

DrSkwid (118965) | more than 4 years ago | (#26947619)

True enough, it has got much better since that quote in 2006, which is a hangover from earlier times.

It's really a quote that should go away. All of my systems that were set up for a purpose are install and forget. My oldest is OpenBSD 3.8 from 2005 happily serving web pages and imap. It would have over 400 days uptime by now if I hadn't accidentally yanked the power cord.

Re:AC Responds About Linux Support (1)

Anders (395) | more than 5 years ago | (#26945419)

as Bruce Perens famously said at Linux SF Con 2006, Linux is only free if your time has no value

Huh, I think that is a quote by JWZ [jwz.org] , from 1998.

Re:AC Responds About Linux Support (1)

oboreruhito (925965) | more than 5 years ago | (#26946117)

as Bruce Perens famously said at Linux SF Con 2006, Linux is only free if your time has no value.

Jamie Zawinski [jwz.org] (the DNA Lounge [dnalounge.com] /Unix Mozilla 1.1 [jwz.org] guy) said it in 1998 [jwz.org] .

So finally I talked my boss into getting me an SGI Indy (which I've since replaced with an SGI O2) and life became joyous again. Because SGI actually knows something about building user interfaces, and about making it possible to administer a machine without being a member of the technological priesthood. For but one example, I was able to install and format a new disk on this machine through GUIs, without once having to run ``man'' and try to remember some random arcane command that I last used in 1986.

This is the part where I start getting hate mail from people, and cheerleading messages telling me to take a look at it again, because it's so much better now. I understand. I'll take your word for it. And when the time comes to replace the O2 I have today, maybe my next machine will run Linux. But as we all know, Linux is only free if your time has no value, and I find that my time is better spent doing things other than the endless moving-target-upgrade dance.

Of course, all of the software I write runs on Linux; that's the beauty of standards, and of cross-platform code. I don't have to run your OS, and you don't have to run mine, and we can use the same applications anyway!

I think Linux is a great thing, in the big picture. It's a great hacker's tool, and it has a lot of potential to become something more. I hope that some day it will have evolved to the point where my mom can take home a Linux box, turn it on, and get on with her life without having to become a Unix sysadmin first, and without having to give up on all the ease of use she's come to expect from allegedly less powerful operating systems.

Just two years later, he took it mostly back.

Re:AC Responds About Linux Support (1)

otis wildflower (4889) | more than 4 years ago | (#26949639)

IIRC jwz has migrated to OS X.

At the very least, all the xscreensaver hacks have been ported to OS X's native screensaver.

I would bet a pint of massively dry-hopped microbrew that OS X is basically what he wanted from IRIX, without so much of the overpriced fail.

(and if you think Apple hardware is overpriced, just check the proprietary SGI RAM from that era...)

who are these people? (2, Interesting)

LordKaT (619540) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943623)

Who the heck are these people using S3 cards nowadays? Why aren't they buying low-end (sub-$80) nvidia or ATI cards?

You get practically the same performance (although 3D performance is far and away better on comparable nVidia/ATI cards) for the same price, the same small heatsink/fan, and better driver support.

Is there a populous of severely brain damaged geeks out there that I don't know about? If so, are any of you female, because I've been feeling lonely lately.

Re:who are these people? (1)

jawtheshark (198669) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943753)

Is there a populous of sverely brain damaged geeks out there that I don't know about

No, there is a population of PC buyers where 80$ is important and that aren't geeks.

Re:who are these people? (1)

stefanPryor (863364) | more than 4 years ago | (#26948025)

Is that not the same price that an "S3" card commands?

I had infered that from the GP post but perhaps I Just assumed so incorrectly?

Re:who are these people? (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26943761)

most low-end motherboards with via chipsets come with s3 graphics onboard.

Re:who are these people? (3, Informative)

moosesocks (264553) | more than 5 years ago | (#26945739)

Really? The vast majority of built-in video cards that I've seen come from Intel.

Re:who are these people? (1)

fishnuts (414425) | more than 5 years ago | (#26946547)

ah, you must not buy many AMD or VIA motherboards.

Re:who are these people? (2, Interesting)

Jurily (900488) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943885)

Who the heck are these people using S3 cards nowadays?

Tough question... the last S3 card I've seen was a 2Mb Trio.

Re:who are these people? (2, Insightful)

Heather D (1279828) | more than 5 years ago | (#26944041)

Who the heck are these people using S3 cards nowadays?

Tough question... the last S3 card I've seen was a 2Mb Trio.

Truth that. An old ATi or Nvidea card is a better buy and is more available as well. The only market I can see for them is OEM integrated and brick and mortar sales and I haven't seen an S3 card for sale in a local store since the 90's.

Re:who are these people? (5, Informative)

SaDan (81097) | more than 5 years ago | (#26944027)

As an AC previously stated, motherboards with VIA's integrated video use the Chrome drivers.

I bought an Everex laptop that uses Chrome9 drivers, and it doesn't do bad for what it is ($300 laptop running Ubuntu).

My wife's PC is also an Everex system with a VIA integrated video using Chrome drivers. It's the $200 system Wal-Mart was selling a while ago.

Why pay for a video card that costs half as much, or more, than the entire system? Video performance is acceptable for day-to-day use, even playing YouTube videos.

Re:who are these people? (4, Interesting)

Average (648) | more than 5 years ago | (#26944819)

There's the evangelism perspective.

Look, if you're like me, and been primarily Linux-using since the a.out days (see Slashdot ID), you'll check every component and buy based on "what works great with Linux", and even "who's directly advancing open-source software, not being buttheads".

Problem is, I, and much of the Linux community, want to be able to give an Ubuntu LiveCD to my friend Joe who just recently heard about this 'Linux thing". And have it work.

I don't want to say "so, what kind of video chipset did eMachines put in your Walmart box", "what network", "what sound".

Re:who are these people? (1)

Xabraxas (654195) | more than 5 years ago | (#26944969)

The biggest issue I have run into is Lexmark printer support. It seems like everyone and their mom has either a "free" Lexmark printer or a "free" Dell printer that simply doesn't work with Linux. Intel has such a huge share of graphics drivers, wireless drivers, and chipset drivers that hardware support for the actual machine is usually very good in my experience but the peripherals and sometimes the specific applications like Quickbooks are what kills the deal. I love Linux but I don't promote it to other people without caveats.

Re:who are these people? (0)

hairyfeet (841228) | more than 5 years ago | (#26946289)

Thank you! Give tha man a cigar! That is why I quit selling low cost Linux boxes at my shop. Here Lexmark is king with a good 90%+ marketshare. Are you going to tell your clients that they have to throw out their all in one that they are quite happy with for a new OS? Me neither. Here they can get a Lexmark all in one for $40, often $30 if they are having a sale or if you add in the extras like photo paper bundled with them. And Walgreen's refills the carts for $10 each, so no problem there.

If the Linux guys want Linux to make serious inroads into the consumer markets they HAVE to support Lexmark. It is simply one of the largest consumer printer manufacturers in the US and probably the world. If they can conquer the Winmodem and Winwireless then I am sure with determination they can defeat the Winprinter. Until I can go to the forums and get a Lexmark driver instead of "Luser, get another printer...LOL winblowz" it simply isn't worth the pissed off customers and bad word of mouth. I bet if Walmart was to speak candidly that is the real reason they quit selling the gOS based Linux PCs in store. Just too many returns from the Lexmark owning public.

Re:who are these people? (2, Insightful)

Xabraxas (654195) | more than 4 years ago | (#26948223)

If the Linux guys want Linux to make serious inroads into the consumer markets they HAVE to support Lexmark.

I have a better idea. Let's destroy Lexmark so no one has to deal with their crappy printers anymore! ;)

Re:who are these people? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#26949355)

Well, to each his own, it's your store... but at our surplus we sell 100% Ubuntu systems. I get FAR fewer returns than with when I used to sell (some) Windows systems.. they'd buy one, get viruses and crap IMMEDIATELY, and then want to bring it back or have someone "fix it" for them. (Which would be a great source of additional income, but we are not an actual store, we are a surplus disposal store so we are not to provide support except for hardware faults, and don't have the staff to do it either.) Since we sell used systems, we had MORE problems with people having already existing OLD printers and scanners that XP does not support than we do with Ubuntu (since it supports most makes and models). Of course, those who install XP over the Ubuntu install are strictly on their own.

          As for "if the Linux guys want" blah-de-blah, umm... a) there's no set of "the Linux guys". Most know Lexmark are crap and don't give a toss if they work. b) The ones that do care, Lexmark just keeps tossing out virtually unrelated printers CONSTANTLY (model x1111 won't be the same AT ALL as x1110), and they do not give specifications for them. It's (reasonably) easy to make a printer driver for Linux, but NOT if the company gives absolutely no info on how the printer works!

Re:who are these people? (2, Interesting)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 5 years ago | (#26944889)

Who the heck are these people using S3 cards nowadays? Why aren't they buying low-end (sub-$80) nvidia or ATI cards?

Who are these people buying graphics cards now? More than 50% of all sales of new computers have been laptops for a while, and they tend not to have their graphics chip on a removable board. Even desktops are more likely to use on-board video than anything else. And a lot of cheap machines in both segments come with onboard S3 graphics. Sure, they only have 1% of the total market share (Q4 2008 figures), but that still translates to a huge number of units.

Re:who are these people? (1)

fenix849 (1009013) | more than 5 years ago | (#26946499)

I think you're probably for getting a whole subcategory of users.

Laptops users, one of the best laptops i've laid hands on the Thinkpad T22 had an S3 graphics card in it. (it could have been even better if they had chosen a s decent gfx card).

Re:who are these people? (1)

knewter (62953) | more than 4 years ago | (#26948217)

When S3 has an open source driver and decent performance, I will buy it over a comparable nvidia card + proprietary driver any day.

Standard Operating Procedure (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26943717)

It is common for companies to issue 'forward looking' statements and clueless positive outlook synergestic lies. Usually by marketing, sales and PR, they totally ignore the engineers, developers or any other employee that may actually know what the fuck they are talking about, and quite often sneer at them for 'not getting it'.

It is a syndrome that is quite common - a scientist says something like 'global warming is a problem'. Put a guy in a suit, call him a CEO or a politician, and his 'I'm confident . . .' bullshit will win almost every time.

So I simply refuse to believe ANY STATEMENT by these guys - they have ZERO credibility left.

 

The really sad part about it... (1)

Narcocide (102829) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943919)

... is that not only are you completely right, you're also one of the few (perhaps 2% at most) of the entire consumer base (which of course includes law makers) that even would notice such a trend in PR practices in general. The bulk of the rest of the population either doesn't care enough to pay attention or isn't smart enough to.

Re:The really sad part about it... (1)

Xabraxas (654195) | more than 5 years ago | (#26945001)

To me that's one of the benefits of open source. The developers are generally pretty honest about what their project can and cannot do. Too many times in the proprietary world companies claim all sorts of stuff that simply isn't true about their products. I guess that is one of the advantages of dealing with the programmers directly instead of salesmen.

Re:Standard Operating Procedure (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26944635)

and whos fault is that? How many R-tards on here bought an ATI card because ATI said they were open sourcing the driver?

Can't blame companies for jumping on the PR wagon when the undecided consumer buys a product because of feel good causes. Next time I suggest you look at the product rather then if the company is "on your side".

S3 Graphic Cards.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26943743)

Sa-Sa-Suck.
*nawcom dances around like a fool*
Honestly, the best thing to come of an S3 video card that I had was it did a nice job being used as a temporary flathead screwdriver.

Sad (4, Insightful)

Darkness404 (1287218) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943783)

These days, its sad if a hardware manufacturer doesn't support Linux. There are plenty of people literally begging for the specs of hardware so they can write clean, proper and free Linux drivers. If you are going to make low-end hardware as S3 does, you better make sure that Linux compatibility is one of the first things on you list.

Re:Sad (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26943835)

If you are going to make low-end hardware as S3 does, you better make sure that Linux compatibility is one of the first things on you list.

Well said! A company like S3 is insane for prioritizing its development time to a platform with 85% of the desktop market!

Re:Sad (3, Interesting)

Darkness404 (1287218) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943943)

A company like S3 is insane for prioritizing its development time to a platform with 85% of the desktop market!

But when you make low end products, it is best to develop for the low end market. These days, the low end market is dominated by Linux and XP. With XP having about 75% and Linux about 25%. Now, if it was so difficult for them to write a proper Linux driver, it might make sense, but if they give specs to a kernel developer (even under an NDA so long as the resulting driver was GPL'd) they wouldn't have to do a thing and they would have a high-quality driver for Linux.

Would a business risk ~25% of its customers by not doing something that costs the company $0 along with improving its PR? I don't think most businesses would, and thats why its so sad.

Re:Sad (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26945975)

Nice job pulling numbers out of your ass.

Re:Sad (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#26946729)

Now, if it was so difficult for them to write a proper Linux driver, it might make sense, but if they give specs to a kernel developer (even under an NDA so long as the resulting driver was GPL'd) they wouldn't have to do a thing and they would have a high-quality driver for Linux.

Except they probably don't really have much documentation, and what they do have is probably filled with stuff that's no longer true, and the only way to find out how it /really/ works is to ask the guy who designed it who now works for another company...

Re:Sad (1)

fat_mike (71855) | more than 4 years ago | (#26949109)

Um, did you pull those numbers out of your butt?

This [wikipedia.org] data would like to argue with you.

0.83% is quite a bit different than 25%.

Re:Sad (1)

red_blue_yellow (1353825) | more than 4 years ago | (#26949823)

By "low end", he was insinuating netbooks, not every computer connected to the internet. Now, his number might be a bit high, but it's much closer.

Re:Sad (3, Funny)

whoever57 (658626) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943881)

S3 is obviously worried about their advanced technology being stolen by nVidia and AMD if they publish an open-source driver or the specs required to write such a driver.

Clearly, as S3 slipped behind the competition in video card performance, they also let the clue train get away.

Re:Sad (1)

0123456 (636235) | more than 5 years ago | (#26944357)

S3 is obviously worried about their advanced technology being stolen by nVidia and AMD if they publish an open-source driver or the specs required to write such a driver.

They're probably more worried that they're violating some patent that they don't even know about, and hence don't want to give Nvidia or ATI any ammunition to beat them with.

This is one of the reasons why the hardware company I used to work for was reluctant to give away programming information to open source developers.

Re:Sad (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26944433)

Also why AMD took so long fulfilling it's promise on R600/700 3d Docs: They had the WHOLE reference run over by lawyers to make sure what got out wouldn't be something that 'came back' as it were :D

Re:Sad (0)

LingNoi (1066278) | more than 5 years ago | (#26944655)

Begging? I doubt it. I bet no one has even bothered to phone up the head office and contact someone, and no, email doesn't count.

If someone bothered to officially contact the company I bet they'd get specs right away. Problem is computer hackers don't think like that, they send an email which reaches the lowest area of support staff, it gets deleted and they give up then bitch on slashdot.

Re:Sad (1)

Rysc (136391) | more than 4 years ago | (#26952557)

And how would you contact a company except by sending them email? If I want to contact a company I'll find their web site, find a contact link and send an email. I cannot imagine what else you might do. Same procedure except finding and calling a phone number might be an option, but it is even less likely you'd get an intelligent result.

Re:Sad (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26945391)

maybe they don't want to be associated with the wanton faggots that the linfux community is so well known for.

and that's to say nothing about the religiously-linsux fanatics that rant and rave about open sorce, never take baths and dress up like women as they shove dildos up their asses.

Re:Sad (1)

Blakey Rat (99501) | more than 5 years ago | (#26946573)

If you are going to make low-end hardware as S3 does, you better make sure that Linux compatibility is one of the first things on you list.

Why?

Not trying to troll, but I'm looking for an actual reason here.

Re:Sad (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#26949437)

If you are going to make low-end hardware as S3 does, you better make sure that Linux compatibility is one of the first things on you list.

Why?

Not trying to troll, but I'm looking for an actual reason here.

Because S3 chips are being integrated into low-powered low-speed systems. Windows Vista is a non-starter and XP isn't great on these. Virtually any Linux distro is fine. Because of this, Linux is getting pretty high market share in these markets. This makes the S3 chips very unattractive -- companies can put virtually any competitor in and have a video chip that works on whatever OS they want to use, or S3 and be restricted to the worst OS choice (Windows).

Download (2, Informative)

djupedal (584558) | more than 5 years ago | (#26943853)

...just so people know...the linux driver available for download is at least 3 months old.

Chrome 400 Series: Linux Display Driver - x86
File Name
S3G-Linux-x86-Chrome4x.14.02.01.tar.bz2 (11,334KB)
Version     Version: 14.02.01
Date: 11/19/2008
Description     Release Type: Beta
- Initial release
GPU IDs: 9043, 9045

Re:Download (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26944305)

One of the problems with you Linux nutjobs is you find ANYTHING you can to whine about. First you whine about not having a driver for the card, then when you find out a driver has been available for some time and that you were incorrect, you whine about the driver being a few months old.

Just shut the fuck up and be happy that anyone is bothering to support your shitty little operating system.

Re:Download (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26944543)

...just so people know...the linux driver available for download is at least 3 months old

That's not a problem. What is a problem is this:

Release Type: Beta

So I think they did not have an official driver yet, and after the fuss that Phoronix started, they chose to release a beta driver?

VIA's Linux Portal site (3, Informative)

SaDan (81097) | more than 5 years ago | (#26944081)

http://linux.via.com.tw/ [via.com.tw]

Get your latest Linux drivers there. I went there to get better drivers for the two VIA systems I own that rely on Chrome drivers, and the newer drivers worked great.

S3's product site is here: http://www.s3graphics.com/en/products/ [s3graphics.com]

Re:VIA's Linux Portal site (1)

digitalchinky (650880) | more than 5 years ago | (#26945025)

You are one of a small percentage of people where the drivers actually work out of the box it would seem. For the rest of us we have to contend with figuring out xorg.conf and the one magical permutation out of thousands that will bring our P.O.S. S3 chip to life. To be sure, once you do figure it out it all works great - Next kernel upgrade and things go back to the shit and you start over again.

VIA, I hope you are reading this, your linux drivers are crap. You guys build the damn chips, so when I type ./install - figure your shit out and just make it work already.

Re:VIA's Linux Portal site (1)

SaDan (81097) | more than 4 years ago | (#26946673)

VIA's drivers ARE a work in progress. At least they offer SOMETHING to the Linux world, though.

I do know my way around xorg conf files, and have no qualms compiling bits and pieces from third parties to tack onto my Linux based OS (I've never had problems with ATI cards under Linux either). That being said, when I did have troubles with the newer drivers from VIA, they were quick to respond to my emails, and they were helpful.

VIA fell out of favor with me back when AMD relied on them for the bulk of their motherboard chipsets. After working at a wireless ISP, and using dozens of Mikrotik routers (most of our NIC were powered by VIA chipsets), trying out some VIA C3 and C7 based systems, and reading about the new Nano processor, I think the deserve a shot in the GNU/Linux world.

They may be easier to deal with than Intel, AMD/ATI and nVidia since they are a smaller company as well.

Re:VIA's Linux Portal site (1)

digitalchinky (650880) | more than 4 years ago | (#26946963)

Indeed you are right, I'm not saying they don't deserve a shot, quite the opposite. I hope they succeed, not only for the competition but because I have a fair amount of money invested in their tech. They've been around a long time now, might be fairly new on the Linux scene, and you are right in that they do respond to email and are quite helpful at times, but their drivers are still woeful in regards to set up and documentation.

Thanks for the reply.

Meanwhile Hercules releases GPL drivers... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#26944995)

this past week and the slashdot editors completely ignore the submission:

http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?op=view&id=3481405&from=badge

Sigh...

Retards (1)

Ivlis (1234144) | more than 5 years ago | (#26945257)

How do you know that there isn't a bug in modinfo? Look at the driver not at modinfo.
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