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Wife of Harried Pirate Bay Witness Gets Buried in Internet Love

ScuttleMonkey posted more than 5 years ago | from the thanks-for-lending-us-your-hubby dept.

The Courts 470

treqie writes "During the trial of pirate bay yesterday, a professor (Roger Wallis) took the witness stand. He told the court things that the prosecutors did not want to hear. The prosecutors then tried to discredit both him and his team's work in the area, as well as his title, it was a real spectacle. In the end, the judge asked if he wanted compensation for being there — he replied that he did not want anything, but they could send flowers to his wife. Many listening online heard, and began sending her flowers, from all over the world. As of this submission, the sum is over 40,000 SEK worth of flowers. There's even a Facebook group for it."

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"Internet Love"? (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27014409)

Isn't that a bit sticky?

Re:"Internet Love"? (1, Offtopic)

An ominous Cow art (320322) | more than 5 years ago | (#27015075)

Less so than 'muskrat love'.

Re:"Internet Love"? (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27015203)

Yeah, I was thinking about that. I would like to see some pictures of his wife being "buried in Internet Love", just for science's sake, ya know?
Tell me about an Uber-Bukkake...

Gives a new meaning... (4, Interesting)

s0litaire (1205168) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014425)

...to the phrase "Flower Power" :D

Re:Gives a new meaning... (4, Funny)

jd (1658) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014465)

The obvious next question is, can she use daisy-chaining techniques to turn the flowers into a beowulf cluster for the use of Pirate Bay?

Re:Gives a new meaning... (2, Insightful)

xouumalperxe (815707) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014663)

The obvious counter question is: were any of the flowers daisies?

Re:Gives a new meaning... (5, Funny)

markov_chain (202465) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014767)

Gotta love a good flowerdotting!

Good Gravy (1)

gx5000 (863863) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014427)

This warms my Heat. ROFLOL, ZOMG and Nice Friday feel good thtread ;-)

Re:Good Gravy (5, Funny)

mea37 (1201159) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014791)

In Soviet Russia, heat warms you.

Re:Good Gravy (5, Funny)

durnurd (967847) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014865)

It's funny, cuz it really doesn't. Not in Russia anyway.

Of course there's a Facebook group for it (5, Funny)

dctoastman (995251) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014441)

There's a Facebook group for everything. There's even a Facebook group who's whole statement is that there are too many useless groups on Facebook.

Re:Of course there's a Facebook group for it (3, Funny)

Merc248 (1026032) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014539)

I wonder when there will be a Facebook group claiming to own all Facebook groups, but itself claiming to be a Facebook group. :x

Re:Of course there's a Facebook group for it (4, Funny)

Wandering Wombat (531833) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014759)

There was, but it divided by zero and disappeared.

Re:Of course there's a Facebook group for it (1)

mac1235 (962716) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014613)

No, there's more than one.

Re:Of course there's a Facebook group for it (1)

fm6 (162816) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014949)

Yes, but is there a Facebook group that tracks Facebook groups about Facebook?

Re:Of course there's a Facebook group for it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27015105)

There probably is now...

Re:Of course there's a Facebook group for it (1)

jank1887 (815982) | more than 5 years ago | (#27015121)

tag: rogerwallisforpresident

his works (5, Informative)

TheSHAD0W (258774) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014455)

Someone might appreciate a link to a sample of his work [mandyhaberman.com] ...

Re:his works (1)

Elektroschock (659467) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014551)

The Mandy Habermann website means patent lobby astroturf. This doesn't speak for his credentials.

Note to self (5, Funny)

Leafheart (1120885) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014477)

Whenever I do something that pisses off my girlfriend (yes, I'm one of the rare slashdotters with a SO), ask random people on the Internet to send her flowers, giving them her address in between.

On a second thought, do I still have the address of my bitch ex-girlfriend? Hmmmm *punders*

Re:Note to self (1)

furby076 (1461805) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014533)

On a second thought, do I still have the address of my bitch ex-girlfriend? Hmmmm *punders*

No, but Google does. Isn't it "ponders"?

Re:Note to self (0, Redundant)

hvm2hvm (1208954) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014997)

No, punders refers to the act of punning or making a pun. In this case the pun was "punders" instead of "ponders".

Re:Note to self (3, Funny)

damien_kane (519267) | more than 5 years ago | (#27015035)

"Ponders", "punders", "punts-her"; who's to argue semantics?

Re:Note to self (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27014925)

Please post said address. But I reserve the right to send pizza instead of flowers, and, of course, to be paid in cash.

Re:Note to self (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27015089)

yes, I'm one of the rare slashdotters with a SO

No, you're one of the dime-a-dozen slashdotters who thinks that having an SO makes you rare among slashdotters.

This title.... (5, Funny)

furby076 (1461805) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014485)

Wife of Harried Pirate Bay Witness Gets Buried in Internet Love

....makes my eyes bleed.

Thank goodness (5, Funny)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014487)

When I read the headline, that's not what I pictured. :/

Re:Thank goodness (1)

JWSmythe (446288) | more than 5 years ago | (#27015101)

I think you're thinking of the Annabel Chong movie. :)

   

Where... (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27014501)

can I send a lump of coal to Danowsky, Pontén and Wadsted?

Re:Where... (4, Funny)

furby076 (1461805) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014557)

In this day and age you want to send them free energy? Send them a rotten banana peel. Pretty sure they haven't made Mr. Fusion a reality.

Re:Where... (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27014653)

In this day and age you want to send them free energy? Send them a rotten banana peel. Pretty sure they haven't made Mr. Fusion a reality.

Why not? The United States sent Hiroshima & Nagasaki a bunch of free energy once ...

Re:Where... (4, Funny)

Hordeking (1237940) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014643)

can I send a lump of coal to Danowsky, Pontén and Wadsted?

Sure. Just send it to IFPI.com. For added effect, sprinkle some flour on it.

Happy Anniversary! (1)

Rudisaurus (675580) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014527)

That's just beautiful! Happy anniversary, Roger and Gorel -- and many, many more!

For those unfamiliar with SEK (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27014565)

40000 kr SEK = $4446.68 USD = €3501.32 EUR

Re:For those unfamiliar with SEK (5, Funny)

the0 (1035328) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014673)

I'm unfamiliar with SEKS, not SEK.

Re:For those unfamiliar with SEK (1)

defenestr8 (1002010) | more than 5 years ago | (#27015055)

much like the rest of the people on /.

Re:For those unfamiliar with SEK (4, Funny)

LingNoi (1066278) | more than 5 years ago | (#27015123)

I thought pirates don't spend money? Zing, that's $4400 less money spent on CDs and DVDs for the related industries.

That is it? (4, Funny)

Steauengeglase (512315) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014611)

It should be noted that the krona is worth about $0.11, so it ends up being like $4,446. For those of us who purchased long stems for our loved ones last Valentines that comes up to about 3 roses and a plush teddy bear or a handful of Gerber daises and a cardboard and macaroni "I luv U" card.

Re:That is it? (3, Funny)

rnws (554280) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014737)

Unless she is from Omicron Persei 8, then it should read: "I wuv U".

Expert on many topics (5, Funny)

NonUniqueNickname (1459477) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014627)

The prosecution is wasting everyone's time questioning him about mp3s and album sales, no one cares. Ask him how he picks up women.

He proposed half an hour after we met and I said maybe. After a day, he had convinced me.

Re:Expert on many topics (1)

LingNoi (1066278) | more than 5 years ago | (#27015141)

He must have used one hell of a line on her..

Re:Expert on many topics (5, Funny)

smellsofbikes (890263) | more than 5 years ago | (#27015185)

>Ask him how he picks up women.

He says, "marry me and I'll convince total strangers to send you $4000 worth of flowers."

An idea! (5, Funny)

RockMFR (1022315) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014651)

The music industry should start selling flowers - you can't download those for free! Of course, they'll have to make sure the flowers can't produce any seeds.

Re:An idea! (4, Insightful)

i.r.id10t (595143) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014701)

Nah, if they did that then Monsanto would sue 'em for patent infringement...

Re:An idea! (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27015135)

No, even Monsanto would not want to piss off the M.A.F.I.A.A. (Music And Flower Industry Association of America)

Wifeâ(TM)s address (1)

hviniciusg (1481907) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014689)

Does anyone knows the address of the wife so we can send some flowers too?

Re:Wifea(TM)s address (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27014789)

you can find her address on the website number. Make sure to gird your loins afterwards.

Re:Wifeâ(TM)s address (5, Informative)

hviniciusg (1481907) | more than 5 years ago | (#27015163)

Gorel Wallis
Herserudsvagen 6
181 34 LIDINGO

That is the address if any one wants to send flowers to her

Re:Wifeâ(TM)s address (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27015215)

I doubt you need her address, all you need to know is the city where they live. I'm sure that if you contact any flower shop in town they'll know exactly where to take them. According to the article, at least 3 flower shops had orders of around 100 bouquets each.

Ah what the hell, send them here:

Görel Wallis
Herserudsvägen 6
181 34 LIDINGÖ
Sweden

ftd.com will deliver to Sweden.

Economic recovery (5, Insightful)

GameMaster (148118) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014749)

And that, my friends, is how you spur on economic recovery. With one sentence, he managed to save the floral industry in his town.

Re:Economic recovery (1)

MousePotato (124958) | more than 5 years ago | (#27015029)

And that, my friends, is how you spur on economic recovery.

Well said.

When are slash readers going to own up to piracy? (-1, Troll)

t0qer (230538) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014771)

I'm gonna get modded into oblivion. I don't care if you downmod me. I know what slash is all about.

He was questioned on the link between the decline of album sales and filesharing. Wallis told the court that his research has shown that there is no relation between the two.

I work in a very small segment of the music industry (karaoke). Lately piracy has been rampant in our industry, and by most peoples estimates, it's 9 out of 10 KJ's (Karaoke dJ's)pirate karaoke in their operations.

Last year for shits and giggles, I compiled some pretty compelling data showing the direct correlation between lost karaoke disc sales, and the rise of posts in a karaoke piracy newsgroup.

http://www.ourdjtalk.com/showthread.php?t=11423 [ourdjtalk.com]

Before someone yells "Oh my, you could compare the rise of aids cases to lost sales and your graph would look the same" just shut up ok? Just shut the fuck up because you're another useless slashdot tool spouting the same "I HAVE A RIGHT TO STEAL OTHERS WORK" retoric that I've read on this fucking site for the last 10 years. There is a direct correlation between piracy and lost sales, I've seen it. Grow up.

Karaoke in America came from relative obscurity, one of those quirky things only "Asians" do. Then 2002 American Idol came out, and now EVERYONE wants to be a star. Karaoke venues started popping up everywhere, but hardly any of them are paying for their karaoke. It sucks, but ya, people steal music on the internet, sales drop for the karaoke labels, we get less karaoke.

It's already happening. Karaoke because it's a niche market, doesn't have the lawyers like the big labels do to fight it. I've seen 8 American karaoke labels die in the last 10 years, and as of now there's only like 3 or 4 left. /end rant.

Re:When are slash readers going to own up to pirac (5, Insightful)

Dan667 (564390) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014831)

Business is a brutal and if you are not willing to do something like Valve's Steam that gives something for giving up something I have no sympathy. Adapt to the market place and quit complaining.

Re:When are slash readers going to own up to pirac (5, Funny)

pdusen (1146399) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014837)

Before someone yells "Oh my, you could compare the rise of aids cases to lost sales and your graph would look the same" just shut up ok? Just shut the fuck up because you're another useless slashdot tool spouting the same "I HAVE A RIGHT TO STEAL OTHERS WORK" retoric that I've read on this fucking site for the last 10 years. There is a direct correlation between piracy and lost sales, I've seen it. Grow up.

I'm now beginning to feel suspicious of the possibility that you may have an agenda.

Re:When are slash readers going to own up to pirac (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27014871)

I've seen 8 American karaoke labels die in the last 10 years, and as of now there's only like 3 or 4 left.

Yes, piracy has a direct impact on overall sales but in the grand scheme of things (the actual music market, not the tiny niche you want to show a link to) it doesn't make much of a dent especially when the majority of people don't pirate.

And just as an aside, we can all hope that when the last 3 or 4 die that the entire industry will fall into a pit, burn, and rot the death it deserves. I'm sorry but I don't see the necessity to foster an environment where drunken idiots sing worse than the mediocrity displayed by the original singer/songwriter while other drunken retards cheer them on. That entire fad is pointless, painful, and horrendous for the rest of us that want to drown our sorrows in fucking peace and quiet. /rant.

Re:When are slash readers going to own up to pirac (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27014897)

...Just sounds like you have personal stake in the karaoke business, and are angry about no making money. You seem to have the same problem as the RIAA: If your business model isn't working, simply stick with it while complaining and arguing you are somehow correct.
        Maybe you should set up a karaoke download web site, where people can pay a non-exorbitant fee to download the tracks they want and then burn them to their own disks. But no, you want them to order original exorbitantly priced karaoke disks--why?--Because you will make more money.
        So I guess the easy answer is: Your business is failing, please pick a different one.

Re:When are slash readers going to own up to pirac (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27014899)

1. Karaoke and Karaoke DJs are different than general music and music lovers

2. A lot of times, karaoke covers sound like crap. I don't blame them for pirating.

3. If you're good at replicating other people's creative works without the vocals, consider making music books for Hal Leonard instead.

Re:When are slash readers going to own up to pirac (1)

RemoWilliams84 (1348761) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014917)

I've seen 8 American karaoke labels die in the last 10 years, and as of now there's only like 3 or 4 left.

Finally, some good news. Now if we can just rid ourselves of all the Japanese labels too. They are horrible at translations.

"I Ruv Rock n Rorr!"

Re:When are slash readers going to own up to pirac (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27014921)

I can't imagine the decline of karoake establishments being any way related to the rise in popularity of people playing rock band or guitar hero at all. Nope, no sir, no way.

I will agree that if KJ's are stealing commercial Karaoke titles and using that for their own for-profit use, that is wrong and that is theft.

Don't confuse something that was popular in 2002 for being as popular as it is today. I don't see GM blaming their massive down-turn on "car theft is rampant!!!1 zOMG WTF". Time have changed and the consumer is the ultimate decider of what products and services are winners and which are losers.

Re:When are slash readers going to own up to pirac (2, Interesting)

Hatta (162192) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014933)

Why is this a problem? If the people interested in karaoke aren't willing to pay for it, then maybe that niche market doesn't need to exist. If they really wanted the karaoke, they'd pay for it. This is the free market at work.

Re:When are slash readers going to own up to pirac (3, Insightful)

SydShamino (547793) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014941)

Selling karaoke CDs to DJs is not the same thing as selling CDs to consumers. It's a different market. Those DJs are using the items whose copyright they infringed to earn a profit, through public performance of the work.

As such, you and those in your industry will have a much easier time tracking down and winning suits against them. Good luck with that.

Meanwhile, don't the venues where the "KJs" perform have to have the music public performance stickers on their doors or face big fines? Why don't you hook up with that group and have them spot check not only the stickers but that the music being publicly performed is a licensed copy?

Re:When are slash readers going to own up to pirac (1)

PRMan (959735) | more than 5 years ago | (#27015157)

And then is it really piracy if everywhere that they KJ has already paid for a music performance license? I mean, the license has already been paid. Who cares how they got the licensed music? See, when the labels don't get it both ways it somehow seems wrong to you. Maybe you've been brainwashed.

Re:When are slash readers going to own up to pirac (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27014945)

Exciting. You have direct evidence that piracy effects sales. So, I have to assume this, your graph is like this:

Chart type: Stacked bar.
Y axis - Number of albums sold
X axis - Counterfeit items found sold as original (bottom stack), Original items sold as original (top stack)

If your graph isn't built like that, you haven't shown anything regarding piracy affecting sales at all.

Actually, looking at your site, what you've proven is that karaoke sales peaked in 2002, and that posts regarding karaoke peaked in the middle of 2005.

From this we can suggest a correlation that posting more about karaoke reduces sales. Although, the problem is, we've ignored all external factors.

I might suggest a more likely hypothesis: Activities that are enjoyable are not always linked to money spent on entertainment. As more money has been devoted to housing over the exact time period since karaoke sales peaked, less money has been devoted to entertainment, suggesting that as people have less money to spend on entertainment, they spend less money on karaoke. But that they still continue to enjoy the entertainment style of karaoke and that the number of potential customers has increased.

I'd also suggest, based on the sales numbers, that an effort needs to be made by the karaoke industry to exit the personal entertainment spending money business and they to enter other money markets. Like, say, corporate entertainment.

But that's just me. All I know is nowhere have you mentioned the number of counterfeits being sold as originals, which is the only form of direct correlation to lost original sales there is.

Thanks.

HAND.

Re:When are slash readers going to own up to pirac (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27014973)

It sucks, but ya, people steal music on the internet, sales drop for the karaoke labels, we get less karaoke.

Bite me. Every karaoke dump I've ever been to, the song list is thousands of songs worth of second-rate crap. You publish a hit or two from an artist, then pages and pages of album filler that nobody cares about. Or worse yet, the song list has the same damn song in eight different arrangements.

If people are pirating karaoke tracks, they're getting their money's worth.

Re:When are slash readers going to own up to pirac (2, Insightful)

pjt33 (739471) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014993)

Lost sales can't be measured, so I'm not sure how you can test for a correlation between them and any other variable.

Re:When are slash readers going to own up to pirac (4, Interesting)

Vancorps (746090) | more than 5 years ago | (#27015003)

That's a lovely troll ya got going there.

Unfortunately there is evidence that shows that the necline of Napster directly contributed to the decline in CD sales and visa versa when Napster was in it's glory days. CD sales were skyrocketing during the time of Napster so your "data" doesn't even attempt to make a counter claim.

Don't expect people to just shut up when you present your argument in the manner in which you have. Now we have the days of XM and Pandora, last.fm, magnatunes, and a slew of others to provide us with free music or nearly free music so CD sales aren't as compelling as they once were. Now the only time we buy CDs is when an artist puts out something truly worth while. The days of buying one or two discs a week are simply gone.

Now let's look at your graph again and conclude that people have once again lost interest in Karaoke which I can attest to in all the bars I frequent, people that do it are few and far between these days. Instead I'm seeing guitar hero taking up the music at a number of bars in addition to regular DJ work.

Sorry, there is absolutely nothing compelling about your data. Compare the same numbers against gross per-capita spending during those times and look at a similar decline as the economy slid into where it is today.

Re:When are slash readers going to own up to pirac (1)

jedidiah (1196) | more than 5 years ago | (#27015027)

Perhaps overcharging to a limited group of customers isn't such a bright business plan.

You're essentially selling lame music videos with closed captions.

It makes me wonder if I would be better off getting a DVD of music videos rather than a Karaoke CD.

Re:When are slash readers going to own up to pirac (1)

Endo13 (1000782) | more than 5 years ago | (#27015039)

You misspelled 'rhetoric'.

Re:When are slash readers going to own up to pirac (1)

Chowder42 (1257748) | more than 5 years ago | (#27015043)

Not to put too much of a point on it, but the whole correlation vs. causation thing. And is thread count really a good metric for number of lost sales. For your theory to be true you would also need to show a increase in the number of karaoke venues. An alternative hypothesis, could there was a short lived spike in karaoke due to American Idol popularity. As the show has decreased in ratings so did the karaoke.

Re:When are slash readers going to own up to pirac (4, Interesting)

ledow (319597) | more than 5 years ago | (#27015047)

Shout as much as you want, mate, those stats mean *nothing*. Two lines vaguely in inverse "correlation" for only half the graph (and correlation for the other half, because you "took the sales numbers (like 191.1 mill) and multiplied each of them by 1000 so the line graph would start out somewhat even.", so the actual correlation is between one line and one THOUSANDTH of the other line, which means that the "curve" on sales is barely a blip and perfectly within the error margin of such pathetically collected data) without some sort of context do NOT mean they are linked, in any way, shape or form.

This is why we have professors of mathematics and statistics and why *they* are the ones who are tested in court and found to be reliable and accurate, because they *can* pick out a million faults with your data collection, plotting, analysis, etc. without even having to think about it, prove why you're wrong, and show you the *real* figure. Unfortunately, even most lawyers have no concept of mathematics which is why there are such things as case-law describing how DNA "matches" MUST be worded, tested, analysed and interpreted, because depending on what you measure and how you word the answer you can go from a "one in a billion" match to a "90%" match with the same two sets of DNA data. Look into things like the birthday problem (how many people do you need in a room for there to be a 50% chance of two having the same birthday?) to see how utterly careful you have to be and how atrociously bad humans are at judging probability and statistics.

Your figures (if I *were* to take them as accurate, and replotted them as they should be plotted without arbitrary fiddling) actually show me that there is probably NO correlation at all. I don't know if I believe whether there is a correlation in real life or not, I've not analysed it and I'd be a fool to say I definitely believe either possible outcome in advance, but this man has stood up to a court's test without the opposition managing to debunk his statistics - that holds more than enough water with me.

Re:When are slash readers going to own up to pirac (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27015059)

Good! Now we'll have less morons singing Bohemian Rhapsody, Meatloaf and every other 6-8 minute song that everyone insists on doing because people think they are so original.

Re:When are slash readers going to own up to pirac (1)

slash.duncan (1103465) | more than 5 years ago | (#27015069)

I've seen 8 American karaoke labels die in the last 10 years, and as of now there's only like 3 or 4 left.

And if they're product is proprietary, trying to artificially prevent the most natural human tendency[1] in the world rather than encourage sharing and expanding upon what one finds exciting and enjoyable, I say GOOD RIDDANCE!

[1] Yes, I'd call it the most natural human tendency, including procreation, because what is procreation but a prime example of wanting to share what one loves with /who/ one loves, to the mutual pleasure of both, or in some cases maybe I should say all, participants? Further, sharing a work of art or intellect can be argued to be reproduction/procreation.

Re:When are slash readers going to own up to pirac (4, Informative)

Actually, I do RTFA (1058596) | more than 5 years ago | (#27015071)

Did you expect no one to click on your link?

You imply a negative correlation (higher postings, lower sales). However, looking at your graph, a positive correlation exists in 2001, 2002, 2004 and 2006... which leaves only a negative correlation in 2003 and 2005. (And both changes from 2002 to 2003 were insignificant, giving you one data point that supports your conclusion).

Furthermore, instead of charting sales in units, you charted sales in dollars. Given that a trivial reading of your source points out the decreasing prices of CDs, and the decrease of new content (11 new CDs in 2007), this seems to make sense. After all, most karaoke is old songs that, once purchased, don't have to be purchased again.

Also, refuting "correlation is not causation" via shouting is pathetic. There are other ways to do so, try one of them.

Re:When are slash readers going to own up to pirac (1)

mea37 (1201159) | more than 5 years ago | (#27015077)

As always, I find myself taking a middle-ground line no copyright issues.

First off, the market for Karaoke tracks isn't the same as the consumer market for music. Commercial vs. personal use, for a start. Conclusions drawn by observing the one can't really be applied to the other. (This does not mean that I oppose copyright on consumer music -- I don't, as my post history should make clear. I do think the current system is broken and getting worse, though.)

So addressing the karaoke market... As far as I can tell, the reason copyright infringement in the karaoke business has gotten so bad is:

1) In the past five years, there's been a shift from CD-based to hard-drive-based karaoke systems. This is a vastly superior technology and makes for better, easier-to-run shows, but it does make it easy to copy entire libraries.

2) The karaoke industry has always had misinformation and over-enforcement (or at least the threat of over-enforcement) when it comes to copyright violations. This got worse with the rise of hard-drive-based systems, with many disc publishers claiming that format-shifting tracks you legally own would be a copyright violation.

3) There was a backlash against this misinformation, with the companies that sell software for hard-drive-based systems advertising that copying the discs to hard drive is completely legal -- but not always being careful to say "as long as you own the original disc".

4) A lot of KJ's, like a lot of other small business owners, hear what they want to hear when it gives them the opportunity to side-step thousands of dollars in expenses to build a huge library that will make them more profitable.

Just my observations by way of a bit of perspective: if the compaines making the discs had handled IP issues better, things might not be as bad as they are. That doesn't make piracy right, but it is a lesson that any media company should learn from.

None of that changes the conclusion that in the karaoke disc industry piracy translates to lower demand / lost profits. It is still not reasonable to call each track copied equivalent to a lost sale -- if they payed full price for discs, KJ's would do their best with a smaller library -- but that doesn't make the impact negligible.

Re:When are slash readers going to own up to pirac (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27015103)

You know what? You are right, I have pirated/stolen some music and a couple of games over the years. However, I can honestly say that of the games and music I've stolen, dependent on if it was music or games, MOST of it was either crap that I played for an hour or so before deciding it was utter garbage and wiped it off my PC (games) or it was something I decided was worth purchasing and purchased later on.

(Case in point, the original mystery case file games), I have since bought a yearly subscription from Big Fish and purchased over 20 games from them. Same for HL2, I originally downloaded it, played it, saw how fantastic it was, and then purchased it simply to have access to it.

On the other hand as far as musics concerned, I have downloaded several albums, only to go out and buy the album (usually at a used record store, but that doesn't matter as its a legally purchased copy of the artists work). A majority of the music I download is stuff I originally bought on tape or CD from years back, which has been lost, scratched, had coke spilled on it, got eaten in a tape deck. etc etc etc.

So, if it makes you feel any better, yeah I've stolen music, and I've stolen games. I'm not going to defend it any further than I have, because I don't need. My actions speak for themselves, in certain cases where it's been warranted, my 'thefts' have benefited the very industry that I'm supposedly ripping off. In others, there still hasn't been any damage done to whatever industries were involved because they were already compensated for their work. In the few instances where I downloaded something and didn't pay for it, it simply wasnt worth owning in the first place and my subsequent actions of hitting the delete key proved it.

It is my personal feeling that if I had paid for whatever item it was that I got rid of in short order, that *I* would have been the one who had been stolen from, I paid for entertainment, and wasn't entertained.

Saturn And S&P (4, Insightful)

ObsessiveMathsFreak (773371) | more than 5 years ago | (#27015145)

There is a direct correlation between piracy and lost sales, I've seen it. Grow up.

Correllation does not imply Causation [obsessivemathsfreak.org] .

It sucks, but ya, people steal music on the internet, sales drop for the karaoke labels, we get less karaoke.

Having seen some of the karaoke subs produced by anime fansubbers, I'm willing to bet that fan made karaoke videos will produce higher quality content than any professional label. In the face of ubiquitous video editing software, your industry has simply succumbed to its own irrelevance.

Re:When are slash readers going to own up to pirac (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27015151)

You're trolling, but...I'll feed you.

Karaoke is different from simple music, in that a karaoke vendor is selling tracks to a business who uses those tracks to do their own business. They are directly profiting (in a strictly monetary sense) from your labor. If they were unable to pirate, the karaoke bars would either go out of business or purchase your tracks. This isn't at all the same as someone treating the internet as a personal call-in radio station, and attempting to correlate the two is patent nonsense.

The obvious solution is to sue each and every karaoke bar in small claims court for the value of tracks you believe they have pirated. A disk of tracks costs what, $20-$50? Small claims cost nothing but filing costs and your time. No lawyers are permitted, and it would only take a few snapshots of their catalog of burned CDs to serve as proof and recover your lost income. Stop whining about being a small industry and having no tools. The karaoke bars are the same level of industry as you.

Also, correlation != causation, your methods are suspect, karaoke is not creative work but merely reselling music created by others (parasitic iow), and you definitely have an axe to grind. Your conclusion is completely irrelevant.

Re:When are slash readers going to own up to pirac (1)

ReverendLoki (663861) | more than 5 years ago | (#27015179)

Based upon the DJs I've known (non-karaoke, that is), piracy seems to be a standard practice of DJs across the board. The difference is, Karaoke music companies, I imagine, target KJs as their primary audience, whereas the main record industry targets the average end consumer. For them, DJs are as much a means for advertising their product.

Although interesting, I can't imagine your analysis of what is occurring in the Karaoke microcosm of the music industry directly correlates to the industry as a whole, in much the same way that one can't use the anecdotes of the goings ons of one small suburb to accurately reflect the trends of the entire nation. At least not without a good healthy dose of corroborating data to show that such a relationship does indeed exist. Though the karaoke and greater music industries share some of the same trappings, their business practices and revenue streams are indeed unique.

Commercial Venue (1)

Midnight Thunder (17205) | more than 5 years ago | (#27015205)

Karaoke in America came from relative obscurity, one of those quirky things only "Asians" do. Then 2002 American Idol came out, and now EVERYONE wants to be a star. Karaoke venues started popping up everywhere, but hardly any of them are paying for their karaoke. It sucks, but ya, people steal music on the internet, sales drop for the karaoke labels, we get less karaoke.

This is a commercial venue, so here you can use the argument that they should be paying a license. This would not be covered by fair use. These are people making money off someone else's work. This is the sort of place that should be cracked down on, not people at home who maybe wouldn't ever have paid for the content, and are most certainly not making money off the work. Heck, in the non internet days these people would have probably just recorded it off the radio.

If you want Karaoke bars to pay you, then offer something that represents a fair deal, since they are making money off the music. If you make the price too high, then they will default to unofficial copies.

Thats alot of flowers (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27014809)

40 000 Swedish kronor = 4 446.68 U.S. dollars

No connection between lost revenue and Torrents (4, Interesting)

Mr.Fork (633378) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014817)

One of my papers for my MBA was the study of piracy. My study recommended that there is ZERO link between lost revenue and torrent downloads BECAUSE they are from people they would never have done business in the first place. If someone downloads it for free, it's not lost revenue because they were never a customer to begin with. Yet these companies try to stop the 'thieves' who are not even going to become their customer.

My paper also showed that the issue was pirates selling full-priced products as the real-deal, not lost sales from never-would-be-a-customer. Even a bigger issue - these free downloads ALMOST 100% garner interest in these products - so that when they had money, or felt they wished to support a product, the former free-bee turned them into a paying customer to get a new version.

With that kind of data out there, these industry giants are forgetting the #1 tactic of product placement - give it away free, later a client they will be. That's Biz-101. It's obvious these giants are out of touch with reality.

Re:No connection between lost revenue and Torrents (1)

Dorkmaster Flek (1013045) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014953)

Even a bigger issue - these free downloads ALMOST 100% garner interest in these products - so that when they had money, or felt they wished to support a product, the former free-bee turned them into a paying customer to get a new version.

Jackpot! We have a winner, folks!

As an interesting anecdote, I've found this to be the case with myself as well. Now that I actually have a job with real income, as opposed to being a bankrupt student who would be a happy paying customer except for getting sued out of existence by a bunch of greedy lawyers.

Re:No connection between lost revenue and Torrents (5, Insightful)

fm6 (162816) | more than 5 years ago | (#27015117)

I really, really doubt that there is zero loss to piracy. It goes against all I know of human nature to suggest that there are no people out there who look for ways to get something for free before they look to pay for it. Besides, there are a lot of people who simply don't believe that authors and artists deserve more than a flat fee for their work. David Pogue certainly heard from a lot of them when he complained about people pirating his work.

That said, it is credible that unauthorized copying can lead to a net gain by IP owners, with extra sales from viral spread of a work offsetting piracy losses. Certainly authors who make their books available online don't seem to suffer for it.

For the too lazy to google (1)

LockeOnLogic (723968) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014847)

40,000 SEK is about $4500

Re:For the too lazy to google (1)

pembo13 (770295) | more than 5 years ago | (#27015037)

$4500 USD I take it?

Relevance? (1)

Hatta (162192) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014879)

I don't understand how this fellows testimony as to the relationship between album sales and file sharing is relevant. If they broke the law, they broke the law whether or not the record industry lost money. If they didn't break the law, then they did nothing wrong, even if it did cost the record industry money. Does it not work this way in Sweden?

Re:Relevance? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27015031)

It's relevant because of the claims on financial compensation for illegally reproduced movies and albums.

Re:Relevance? (1)

jedidiah (1196) | more than 5 years ago | (#27015079)

The law should be about actual harm, not just hurting people you don't personally like.

"it's illegal" is right up there with "it's in the Bible" as argumentation goes.

Re:Relevance? (1)

blueg3 (192743) | more than 5 years ago | (#27015127)

At least in the U.S., in a civil suit, showing damage can be a very significant.

Re:Relevance? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27015177)

The law is redundant and stupid.

Why follow a law when it's made entirely for greed?

Laws are made to protect people, not to hurt them.

Well at least they should be.

Re:Relevance? (2, Interesting)

jank1887 (815982) | more than 5 years ago | (#27015189)

possibly once it has been demonstrated that the law has been broken, the penalty can be related to the financial impact of the crime...?

Re:Relevance? (5, Interesting)

mlwmohawk (801821) | more than 5 years ago | (#27015195)

I don't understand how this fellows testimony as to the relationship between album sales and file sharing is relevant. If they broke the law, they broke the law whether or not the record industry lost money. If they didn't break the law, then they did nothing wrong, even if it did cost the record industry money. Does it not work this way in Sweden?

Copyright is an interesting thing. Making a copy isn't actually "theft." The notion of "copyright" is to protect the revenue and value of a work. In fact, in the U.S. one of the limiters of "fair use" is a profit motive and/or a diminished value of the work.

If it can be argued that no harm comes to the value or marketability of a work from mere p2p sharing, then the "spirit" of copyright is not broken, and, in fact, may fall easily into the realm of "fair use" because it is distributed without commercial interest.

So, if two people sharing a work electronically falls under the umbrella of "fair use" in Sweden, then there can be no contribution to a crime by the TPB guys.

It's over SEK 50000 now (USD 5500)... (2, Informative)

koma77 (930091) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014887)

...and it's still increasing.

Damn! (5, Funny)

Chabil Ha' (875116) | more than 5 years ago | (#27014965)

Those pirates are spending money on flowers instead of our media! Quick, summon the lawyers!

Legal note (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27014969)

The compensation mentioned wasn't due to the harassment from the prosecutors' side, but rather due to the Swedish legal principle that anyone testifying in court is entitled to compensation for expenses and loss of income.

Nicely done... (1)

pig-power (1069288) | more than 5 years ago | (#27015007)

Those lovelorn geeks, at least we know their hearts are working as well as their fingers! Very thoughtful.

Summary redux (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27015023)

The summaries of these stories always amuse me. At least, the worse-than-usual-even-for-Slashdot one-sidedness.

"Some big meanyheads said mean things about our source of free media other people want us to pay for. Something about money and blah blah these people have no right to charge for anything fuck them.

Meanwhile, the GLORIOUS Leader of the REVOLUTION OF FREEDOM AND GLORY bestowed the PITIFUL court of law with His presence, deftly smiting His enemies in a SPECTACLE which will convert all the LOST SOULS to our wonderful light. Those that remain are the SOULLESS HEATHENS which will be BURNED in the almighty FLAME OF JUSTICE. For as it is written in the Book of Coulton, HE WHO OFFERS HIS INVENTORY FOR FREE SHALL ASCEND TO HEAVEN AND BE AUTOMATICALLY RICH.

And lo, the GLORIOUS LEADER told His followers to buy flowers for His wife, and it was done. A day of Festival was declared in Her glory and will be celebrated by the followers for all of time and creation.

And tomorrow the meanyheads say some other dumb things about money and stuff. I hate them I hate them I hate them I hate them I hate them I hate them I hate them I want my movies free I hate them."

Internet Love? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27015091)

When I think of "internet love", flowers are not the first things that come to mind.

Pay in roses... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27015153)

...actually isn't as uncommon as you'd think. The cost of renting for some churches is one rose per year.

Attempts [genealogue.com] have been made in the past to collect on past due rose rent.

Just something to think about, because knowing that means that, unfortunately, this could be used to discredit the professor since he required a legitimately recognized form of payment just to show up in court.

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