×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

Open Source Usability — Joomla! Vs. WordPress

kdawson posted more than 5 years ago | from the apples-and-orange-trees dept.

Programming 240

An anonymous reader writes "PlayingWithWire profiles two open source tools for Web development, comparing Joomla! and WordPress through the lens of usability. The article has apparently upset a few people at the Joomla! forum, but it does bring up a good point. Many open source projects are developed by engineers for engineers — should they focus more on usability? PlayingWithWire makes a bold analogy: 'If Joomla! is Linux, then WordPress is Mac OS X. WordPress might offer only 90% of the features of Joomla!, but in most cases WordPress is both easier to use and faster to get up and running.'" The article repeatedly stresses that blogging platform WordPress and CMS harness Joomla! occupy different levels of the content hierarchy. How fair is it to twit Joomla! on usability?

cancel ×
This is a preview of your comment

No Comment Title Entered

Anonymous Coward 1 minute ago

No Comment Entered

240 comments

Some people still like G'nR (-1, Offtopic)

BadAnalogyGuy (945258) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049295)

There was a time a while back when Axl Rose was such a huge star that even when he bailed out of concert tours at the last minute, people would still line up to buy their latest albums.

Nowadays he's essentially a parody of the coolness that G'nR once was. His latest outing, Chinese Democracy, is nothing to write home about, unfortunately.

Different software appeals to different peopl (4, Informative)

gravos (912628) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049347)

Different software appeals to different people. I like linux because it gives me flexibility. You like MacOS X because it is easy to use. I like Wordpress because it is simple. You like Joomla because it is adaptable.

You know what? That's fine. One-size-fits-all is not a relevant concept when it comes to software. Diversity is a good thing, and we should encourage it, not worry about it.

Re:Different software appeals to different peopl (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27049493)

Except, like, if you use OS X, because when you are forced to the same applications and ways of doing things in many cases.

Because, well, it makes everything look easier, even though it suck when it come to features.

Posting AC since any Apple criticism gets moderated troll anyway.

Re:Different software appeals to different peopl (3, Interesting)

KylePflug (898555) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049747)

Blind, uninformed apple criticism gets modded troll. The Mac community isn't all sycophants and dummies any more than the Linux community is all revolutionary closeted sociophobes. Guess what? I have a laptop running Linux, a desktop dualbooting Windows and Linux, and a MacBook running OSX with Windows 7 and XP in VMs.

It's not just that different software appeals to different people, though that's part of it. Different software has different purposes. I've tried at length, and Linux (or OSX, for that matter) don't offer anything comparing to the ease-of-use and efficiency of running a tablet PC in Vista with OneNote for academic settings. I've set it up in Linux, screwed with input drivers for weeks on end, only to have a hacked, barely workable solution. In Windows, I had excellent handwriting recognition and a superb interface with good features. Yeah, Windows is a fundamentally flawed OS - but they all are. Maybe Windows more than the others, but it was what I needed for that purpose.

Macs are similarly useful in the academic community, as well as for designers and editors. Yes, Linux is a great OS, but it simply doesn't have photoshop or anything that compares to it. GIMP is a clumsy hack and is frankly like Paint in comparison. Gnome, KDE and Explorer have nothing on the frankly revolutionary changes Mac has seamlessly implemented in the last few years. There are a lot of poorly implemented whizbang features like Time Machine's GUI or Safari 4's Top Pages, but there are also features like Spotlight, Expose, the new stacks in the Dock, and Quick Look, none of which the competition can approach with a ten foot pole.

Call me back when Linux works with my hardware out of the box (and don't give me any of the normal bullshit; I've tried it on five laptops and two desktops in the last couple years, most of those very recently, and it never Just Works; I can tinker, but I shouldn't be expected to and certainly won't be won as an apostle if I need to). Call me back when Linux or Windows have system-wide drag-and-drop that lets me drag an image off a webpage or into an chat window, or from my desktop into the Mail icon to start a new mail with an attachment, or from an email to a filesystem icon which pops open, lets me browse my hard drive by hovering and dropping where I want, and then goes away.

I'm the first person to advocate open source, the last person to advocate Windows, and no stranger to alternative operating systems. But the ridiculous closedmindedness of the FOSS community is exactly why it is so curmudgeonly and slow when it comes to any widespread adoption. Nobody cares what a bunch of zealots have to say because their zealousy discredits them from the offset. The new Macs are all remarkably well-constructed, fast machines with good features and a superior operating system for the vast majority of end-user and even power-user purposes. If you need more, buy another computer or install another operating system, I won't complain. But flatly decrying the entire platform is stupid. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Re:Different software appeals to different peopl (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27049891)

Guess what? I have a laptop running Linux, a desktop dualbooting Windows and Linux, and a MacBook running OSX with Windows 7 and XP in VMs.

Damn schizo!

Re:Different software appeals to different peopl (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27050129)

Have you used any adobe programs lately? the UI is an abomination (especially on the Mac!). Check this [tumblr.com] website number sometime. I dropped major cash for Adobe CS3 Master Suite for OS X last year. Major mistake. The UI doesn't look or feel native, is slow, full of quirks, and hard to use.

Re:Different software appeals to different peopl (4, Insightful)

Architect_sasyr (938685) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049683)

Diversity is a good thing, and we should encourage it, not worry about it.

Great in theory, shit in practice. The amount of "geeks" and/or "nerds" out there who tell me I simply must use wordpress, or I must use Joomla (or Drupal) because it is better - regardless of my own needs - is so spectacularly high that I'm tempted to just say fuck it and write my own, portability be damned. The same applies to the Apple/GNU/Microsoft argument as well. I don't care if one is easier to use than the other, for me, OS X goes to my designers, wordpress to my blogging clients, joomla to my own systems, GNU for my servers, Microsoft for once off uses. The right tool for the right damned job. The second the people writing these "Vs." articles (and threads and what not) get that through their heads, is the second everyone figures out what they really need, not what they're told they should use.

Re:Different software appeals to different peopl (4, Insightful)

Hognoxious (631665) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049855)

The amount of "geeks" and/or "nerds" out there who tell me I simply must use wordpress, or I must use Joomla (or Drupal) because it is better - regardless of my own needs - is so spectacularly high that I'm tempted to just say fuck it and write my own

Some guy called Nietzsche on the line ... something about the perils of fighting monsters.

Re:Different software appeals to different peopl (0)

value_added (719364) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049687)

I like linux because it gives me flexibility. You like MacOS X because it is easy to use. I like Wordpress because it is simple. You like Joomla because it is adaptable.

Fair enough, but how do you explain all the Macbooks visible at this Drupal Conference [nytimes.com]? :-)

Re:Different software appeals to different peopl (2, Interesting)

Hal_Porter (817932) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049771)

I like linux because it gives me flexibility. You like MacOS X because it is easy to use. I like Wordpress because it is simple. You like Joomla because it is adaptable.

Fair enough, but how do you explain all the Macbooks visible at this Drupal Conference [nytimes.com]? :-)

From your link

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/02/nyregion/02open.html?ref=technology [nytimes.com]

There were people who were proud to call themselves tech geeks and a few who admitted being near-Luddites, and there was at least one person who called herself a radical technologist. They joined book publishers, librarians and computer consultants, some of whom had come from as far as Ireland and Brazil, at the Polytechnic Institute of New York University in Downtown Brooklyn on Saturday for something akin to a happening for the Internet age â" Drupal Camp.

"Radical technologists" and self proclaimed geeks all gather and socialise. All of whom are very keen to talk eloquently to the NYT and their blogs about what sort of geek they are and (I'm guessing) very few of whom would be happy coding away on their own.

Does that answer your question?

I think tha fundamentally this is a case of (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27049297)

poo poooooo pooop ass asss assssssss poooooooop

Quite fair (5, Informative)

rallymatte (707679) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049303)

I'm a Linux Systems Admin. I write php code quite often, I know several other script languages and I know the basics of CSS.
I managed to install Joomla quite easily, but I must say that once it was installed, it was really hard to use. Modules wouldn't install properly and simple things were really hard to accomplish, like being able to upload files etc.
It was also really hard to brand the page, we wanted our company look of the page. Took a good while before we got to something that only looked ok.
Maybe I'm being harsh as this was a few versions back. But still...

Re:Quite fair (1)

jack2000 (1178961) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049543)

I know what you mean. The simplest of things: Create a userless-accessible gallery where people can upload things are REALLY hard to do in Joomla. After 45 minutes of sweat I finally gave up and installed MKP.

Re:Quite fair (2, Insightful)

wfWebber (715881) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049555)

Same here. It's not too hard to use an existing template for better looks, but once you want to make things look like you want, you'll need to delve into template building. Not for the weakhearted. On the other hand, I'm not too sure WP would score higher on this one.

Re:Quite fair (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27049707)

I develop with Joomla daily, and you do certainly need skills in PHP to be able to get it work - a non-programmer would be unable to get the most out of the package and modules. Saying that I've only been developing PHP for 6 years, and it took me about three days to be able to work and build complex e-commerce solutions with Joomla. I was able to create good sites for customers after a couple of days and didn't experience the probelms you mentioned.

In terms of usability it is quite poor though. In previous jobs I've had to present clients with several CMSs (open source and propriatary) and they never once chose Joomla.

I've come to like the flexibility and massive choice offered by Joomla, but think you should use the best tool for the job, and Joomla is simply overkill for the majority of sites we develop, and it is overly complex and badly designed in terms of usability for simple sites.

Re:Quite fair (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27049923)

Nobody gives a shit what you do. This isn't your personal biography page. Thanks for your life history but nobody cares. Damn you.

Joomla! and Drupal (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27049307)

This comparison reminds me of the difference between Joomla! and Drupal, with the latter being a lot more friendly to develop for as well as use.

upset a few people? (4, Insightful)

howlingmadhowie (943150) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049309)

at the moment, the link goes to a thread with 5 posts, none of which seem to have been written by an upset person.

Ya 3 to be exact (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27049341)

one windows user, a mac user and the other is just a troll with green fizzy hair and smelly cloths

to bad i had to logout to post but here OH well

Re:upset a few people? (5, Funny)

tnok85 (1434319) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049351)

Maybe the poster was hoping we'd see this and get all pissed off, then go sign up and post on that thread to make a fuss about it. :)

Re:upset a few people? (4, Funny)

krou (1027572) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049353)

Indeed, one user on the forum even said "I'm sure that clear usability suggestions with ideas for implementation would be welcomed!"

Feel the rage!

Re:upset a few people? (4, Interesting)

Chrisq (894406) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049355)

Yes, They were about as upset as I would be if someone compared my minivan to a Ferrari and came to the conclusion that the Ferrari was faster.

Like one of the commenters said, it is comparing apples with oranges - Wordpress is for blogging, so blogs are easier to produce. Joomla if a general CMS system, capable of more, but slightly harder to use if you just want a blog.

Re:upset a few people? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27050187)

Like one of the commenters said, it is comparing apples with oranges - Wordpress is for blogging, so blogs are easier to produce. Joomla if a general CMS system, capable of more, but slightly harder to use if you just want a blog.

That's not quite right; Wordpress can be used as a CMS and has sufficient capabilities for most use cases I encountered. Also, there is a directory of plugins that allow to easily add capabilities that go beyond text editing. If, in addition, you know PHP, then its really straightforward to extend Wordpress yourself--there is plenty of well-written and up-to-date documentation.

So I think a comparision restricted to this aspect does make sense. In my opinion, Joomla being a "general CMS system" is no excuse for that fact that it is rather hard to set up a simple website.

Fair comparison considering the scenario (4, Interesting)

Einmaliger (1052420) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049317)

He is comparing the usability of the two very different applications for a quite limited scenario, namely setting up very simple web sites with only a few static pages. For larger projects Wordpress simply won't do the job, but in that simple case, I agree that WordPress is a often much better choice. For my personal homepage I tried out lots of Open Source CMS, but finally got stuck with WordPress + some plugins. It does a surprisingly good job as CMS, but I would not recommend it for - say - my company's website.

Re:Fair comparison considering the scenario (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27049443)

you should use drupal over joomla for your companys website :)

Re:Fair comparison considering the scenario (2, Interesting)

Einmaliger (1052420) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049495)

you should use drupal over joomla for your companys website :)

Actually I will recommend SilverStripe. I just love its MVC framework. It feels right from a developer's pov.

Re:Fair comparison considering the scenario (1)

Xabraxas (654195) | more than 5 years ago | (#27050193)

Actually I will recommend SilverStripe. I just love its MVC framework. It feels right from a developer's pov.

Drupal and Joomla both use MVC, not that that term seems to mean anything anymore.

Re:Fair comparison considering the scenario (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27049613)

what is it's number?

Re:Fair comparison considering the scenario (2, Insightful)

MrNaz (730548) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049513)

So you're saying that a spanner is better than a power geared pneumatic torque wrench if all you're doing is tightening a bolt?

No shit, Sherlock.

Re:Fair comparison considering the scenario (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27049651)

So you're saying that a spanner is better than a power geared pneumatic torque wrench if all you're doing is tightening a bolt?

No shit, Sherlock.

Especially when you're tightening the oil tap on my mother's SUV.

Anecdote ahead:

Seriously, someone used a pneumatic wrench on the tap a few years ago the lazy bastard. The next time I went to change her oil I had a heck of a time getting it out. It was in there so tight that trying to take it out with a box end stripped the freaking thing. I ended up having to file the sides of the sucker down, clamping vise-grips onto it, and then using my foot to apply torque while bracing myself against the frame of the SUV. You should never have to have to perform these steps to remove a properly tightened oil tap.

Took the ruined tap back to the oil change place and insisted they reimburse me for it. Their manager did.

Re:Fair comparison considering the scenario (4, Insightful)

DiegoBravo (324012) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049523)

I use BOTH systems for the company web site. Joomla!, lets me create and customize things like menus, download zones, galleries of images, a forum, etc. A link points to our blog implemented in Wordpress. There are blog extensions for Joomla, but WP is IMO better than those.

Joomla is both a CMS and a framework to add powerful extensions, and using just for a blog is overkill. Wordpress is a blog (and of course able to present a simple static web site), but is limited beyond that.

Note also that there are many Joomla extensions in order to let other projects being integrated in the Joomla framework. See for example:
http://extensions.joomla.org/extensions/content-&-news/blog/6659/details [joomla.org] (integrate WP with Joomla)

It's pretty obvious that Joomla will have a larger learning curve so the comparison is really pointless.

Re:Fair comparison considering the scenario (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27049867)

WordPress is actually pretty powerful if you use it right. I wouldn't write it off as "just a blog" that easily. Try Flutter or Pods, for example: http://flutter.freshout.us/ http://pods.uproot.us/

If it does not have the features you want (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27049337)

just write your own with blackjack and hookers! Ah! Forget the Blackjack!

Can you say 'Bias'? (5, Insightful)

tnok85 (1434319) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049339)

Wow, this article is blatantly biased. Just look at the way he writes.

For the Joomla! examples, they feel the need to put quotations around everything. 'Control Panel', 'Title', and so on. Those same words (or similar words) in the WordPress section are for some reason easier to understand, so they don't warrant quotations.

Not to mention he described Joomla!'s processes as a technical writer would (loosely) and then described WordPress' processes as if casually telling a friend.

That alone stopped me from reading the article.

Disclaimer: I've used Joomla! once, and WordPress once. Both did their jobs admirably, but you can't compare apples and oranges - which is what this article is trying to do, with a heavy bias.

Re:Can you say 'Bias'? (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27049373)

Yeah and no mention of the simple options like:
www.cmsmadesimple.org

Re:Can you say 'Bias'? (2, Interesting)

jrumney (197329) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049965)

Wow, this article is blatantly biased.

I figured that from the "Wordpress might only offer 90% of the features of Joomla!" quote.

not a question (3, Insightful)

Tom (822) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049345)

should they focus more on usability?

Errr... yes?

How can you possibly answer "no" to that question? Do you want your stuff actually being, you know, used by people? There's a reason it's called "usability" and not bumblebee.

Re:not a question (1)

ady1 (873490) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049425)

Depends on the project. Project involving Hardware drivers/low level services/operating systems, probably not (should be performance and stability).

Re:not a question (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27049433)

Do you want your stuff actually being, you know, used by people?

Many OSS devs would reply "no". It's all about "I", "Me", and "My".

Re:not a question (4, Interesting)

moosesocks (264553) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049479)

Errr... yes?

How can you possibly answer "no" to that question? Do you want your stuff actually being, you know, used by people? There's a reason it's called "usability" and not bumblebee.

Go read up on the arguments against the GoboLinux [wikipedia.org] filesystem structure. (These Ubuntu folks have a bunch [ubuntu.com]). There are some fairly passioned "screw the n00bs" rants out there. Does anybody honestly think that the traditional Unix filesystem heirarchy makes an ounce of sense in 2009?

Both vi and EMACS seem to have taken the "fuck the users" approach to heart. I suppose I might be of the wrong mindset to operate either application, though the developers could have at the very least taken the time to provide a decent set of documentation for their astonishingly-complex applications.

Re:not a question (1)

BollocksToThis (595411) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049541)

I don't know about emacs, and definitely not the original vi, but the help in vim is excellent. It even tells you how to get to that help if you run vim without specifying a file to edit, and has a step-by-step tutorial to make sense of the madness.

Re:not a question (5, Insightful)

tpgp (48001) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049699)

Both vi and EMACS seem to have taken the "fuck the users" approach to heart.

There is a difference between being easy-to-use-first-time and usable. You appear to be confusing the two.

Re:not a question (2, Insightful)

wumpus188 (657540) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049961)

Does anybody honestly think that the traditional Unix filesystem heirarchy makes an ounce of sense in 2009?

Yes.

Re:not a question (1)

JohnFluxx (413620) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049483)

> How can you possibly answer "no" to that question?

Well given finite resources, the reason question should be:

should they focus more on usability and focus less on stability/bug fixing/adding features?

In which case the answer could quite possibly be no.

It's somewhat akin to "should teachers be paid more?" etc type questions.

Re:not a question (0, Flamebait)

Arancaytar (966377) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049521)

Err... no. Not necessarily.

"Usability" is another word for "safe for newbies and those too lazy to read the manual". Whether you want your software to be like this depends on your target audience. You wouldn't ask for the bash shell to become more "usable". It can be used by advanced users, and they are the only ones who need to use it. In the case of CMS and web frameworks, the target audience can be very varied: You get Ruby on Rails which only programmers use, and Joomla which is only really worthwhile if Drupal is too difficult.

Re:not a question (1)

Hognoxious (631665) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049673)

"Usability" is another word for "safe for newbies and those too lazy to read the manual".

I award you zero points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Re:not a question (1)

7 digits (986730) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049547)

> > should they focus more on usability?

> Errr... yes?

> How can you possibly answer "no" to that question?

Well, it is open source we are talking about.

Here is Linus Torvald back in 2000 explaining that adding features that make development easier in the kernel is not a good idea:

http://lkml.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0009.0/1148.html [indiana.edu]

(And of course, it was a stupid position to begin with, but clever people are pretty good at rationalizing anything. I guess that in 2000 he would have rejected git on the ground that it makes too easy to add stuff to the kernel)

Re:not a question (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27050095)

Dude, you're quoting from an article that is NINE FREAKING YEARS OLD. GFY, you old bastard.

But Joomla's not a product, it's ahobby (1)

petes_PoV (912422) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049781)

The people who are motivated to contribute to Joomla only do so as it meets their personal needs to write intricate, arcane, obscure code that will impress their friends - who are doing the same.

If anyone actually wants to use this, in ways more complicated than point-click-publish, they will have to open it up, look desperately for any comments (which either don't exist, are wrong, or weren't changed when the code was updated) or other clues about how it works.

If you put any financial cost on your time, it's far cheaper to buy a commercial product to produce the equivalent website than to spend time trying to bend Joomla to fit what you want.

In that respect as "free" open source, it's a manifest failure.

Ex-Joomla! user here. (1)

palegray.net (1195047) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049361)

I've worked as a programmer (various languages and platforms, these days mostly Perl apps on Debian) for over a decade now. I tried to get comfortable with Joomla! for a few months, but it never really worked for me. For most sites that require a CMS, I just install WordPress, configure necessary plugins, and call it a day.

For any needs that exceed the capabilities of WordPress, I just wind up writing custom code anyhow. It's never been worth the effort to implement a decent-sized site in Joomla!.

Try TYPO3 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27049365)

So do you think Joomla is hard ?

Try TYPO3...

And please remember the motto.

Right tool for right job...

Re:Try TYPO3 (1)

Dekortage (697532) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049745)

I've had to administrate sites in Typo3, Joomla, Drupal, and other CMSs. I've written some Typo3 extensions because there was nothing out that did exactly what I needed. Nonetheless, I cannot stand Typo3 and its irritating TypoScript psuedo-language. I'll take Joomla any day over that.

Re:Try TYPO3 (2, Informative)

oliderid (710055) | more than 5 years ago | (#27050217)

I do and on a daily basis. When you go back to Joomla! and the like, you suddenly feel like it is quite simple :-). I can't imagine the reaction of this guy in front of it :-)

Some of the problems of Typo3 is its legacy. Typo3 has been created in the nineties if I remind well at a time where Object oriented PHP programming wasn't possible.

Typo3 developers used a pseudo object oriented framework heavily based on hash tables. Which is truly ugly but well it works. If you've got a real Object oriented background, you feel sick in front of it. The real problem is that they kept this approach until today and when you read their developers mailing list, most have no desire to change it.

Another problem is really ridiculous but well the real problem is its repetition : naming convention. All "core api" classes have funny names. Imagine simple System.Console would become in typo3 Sys.csl a writeln would become wtln

Why? Don't ask. Maybe they want to look smart, I don't know.

If they can make an abreviation (let's say saving just one letter), they will! It could as stupid as objc witch is object or more important stuff like pi wich is plugin, and all. While reading their code, you can't understand it, you need google and dozens of different sources simply to understand what this variable or object stands for. They might save one nanosecond while typing it but newbies lose hours (and most leave the environement entirely).

Another problem is their fragmented documentations. Their documentation are heavily based on their abbreviations. Extremely important stuff like TCA...Means err nothing until you found another documentation describing this abbreviation. It is really frustrating.

They are also keen at "creating" new name for things you know for years...And it becomes even more frustrating to a point that you can understand the inner logic behind it.

Typoscript has been "designed" by a non developer IMHO. I feel like he thought that he could play with syntax as much as he wish. And you end up with a "configuration language" using = or < with a total different meaning than in any other computer languages.

So the learning curve is extremely important (and they seem proud of that fact...Again don't ask). A large part of your technical experiences will be useless in front of typo3. These are the cons, I found a lot of "pros" that counterbalance them. Its extreme flexibility is the first. The second is that there are a lot of companies requiring it (in Europe at least) and very few developers ready to spend hours in this messy environment :-). I make now a good part of my revenues out of it.

Do we want 'normal users' to do web development? (1)

tommeke100 (755660) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049381)

A question we may ask if we really want 'normal users' to be web developers?
Sure, you need designers and content writers for sites, and usability is certainly a plus in these areas, but what about security and all the other technical parts of developing a website? I don't think it's a good evolution having ppl with no skills hosting sites not knowing wtf they're doing.

Re:Do we want 'normal users' to do web development (1)

MichaelSmith (789609) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049417)

Where I work we installed mediawiki. It is very hard to go wrong that way, though a few users have needed help.

Re:Do we want 'normal users' to do web development (1)

palegray.net (1195047) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049477)

The idea isn't to have people hosting sites without knowing wtf they're doing. The idea is to have an admin who runs the servers and keeps software up to date, a designer who crafts the initial look and feel of a site, and content producers who create and publish content on the site.

A competent admin can easily manage a bunch of servers, and the designer is only needed when site-wide visual changes need to be made.

mostly unfair (1)

squoozer (730327) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049389)

While an interesting comparison which draws conclusions I broadly agree with I feel that this is mostly unfair. They author states at the start that he has developed two solutions to the problems he commonly faces one based on Joomla the other on Word Press. Since Joomla is much harder to work with it must be bringing something to the party that Word Press isn't. Having said that I do feel that a lot of open source projects are far more complicated than they need to be because they are produced by developers for developers. Developers seem to have an unwritten language which is impenetrable to non-developers and describes how systems work. This is great for developers because it means we can sit down to just about any tool and know how to use it, to non-developers though it's an indication it's time to walk away.

The whole point of any software ... (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27049423)

Software is almost always a way to do something we would otherwise be able to do, but with much more effort. In that light, usability is the whole purpose of software.

Considering a CMS? Read this! (5, Informative)

randomsearch (1207102) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049471)

Hi All,

If anyone is looking at Joomla etc. right now and trying to decide on which CMS to use, please take my advice:

If you're a competent programmer, appreciate good design, know PHP to some extent, etc. then use *Drupal*. It has taken me 6 painful months to learn how frustrating the other systems can be if you already have these skills.

Joomla et. al seem to be designed for people without a strong technical background. Drupal is a tool that speeds up the process of building sites for technical literate designers without constraining them too much.

RS.

Re:Considering a CMS? Read this! (1, Troll)

Rotund Prickpull (818980) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049629)

If you're a competent programmer, appreciate good design, know PHP

One of those does not go with the other two.

Jooma is needlessly complicated for what it does (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27049635)

After looking at Drupal, Joomla and Spip, the clear winner IMHO in the PHP world is clearly Drupal.

I personally prefer Plone (written in Zope/Python), but whenever a PHP solution is mandated, Drupal is the way to go.

Re:Considering a CMS? Read this! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27049679)

I'd agree that that Joomla 1.0.x wasn't exactly industrial strength. However, 1.5.x was completely rewritten, uses MVC, and is a solid OO framework. It's worth checking out. I think most of Joomla's mediocre reputation was gained during 1.0.x. It's been over a year since it's been completely redesigned.

Personally, I don't like Drupal's approach to their admin UI and when I tried it out, it was pretty buggy.

All that said, Wordpress and Joomla are so different, it's a little weird to compare. Wordpress is so specific to blogging. It's kind of like comparing a fork to a swiss army knife. I can see comparing Joomla to Drupal and other "framework" (kitchen-sink) CMS.

Re:Considering a CMS? Read this! (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27049803)

I've been happily training hundreds of volunteers to run and manage joomla web sites over the last two years. One of the best of which is done entirely by an 80 year old pensioner with no prior computer experience.

Sure usability could be improved. When cant something be improved. I dont believe anyone in joomla is arrogant ennough to believe that it is perfect. Thats why it is constantly developed and improved upon.

Comparing joomla to drupal is like comparing red apples to green apples. Some people love one and hate the other. Other people love them both. At the end of the day they are similar but not the same. Comparing either joomla or drupal to wordpress is like comparing apples to pears. They are both fruit but thats where the similarity ends.

Re:Considering a CMS? Read this! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27049807)

MODx > Drupal > Joomla

Re:Considering a CMS? Read this! (1)

footnmouth (665025) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049917)

We've built our company website (Sceneric [sceneric.com] in CMS Made Simple [cmsmadesimple.org] which we thought had a good balance of Joomla features and functionality with Wordpress usability (i.e. the CEO could use it if need be). In addition, at the time Joomla insisted on a little bit of table layout in the presentation template and we wanted CSS layouts only (has this changed?)

Joomla's admin interface usability is poor in my opinion, though it does score a big win for shopping carts and eCommerce functionality - the modules that do this tend to be fairly easy to use, and include SEO plugins etc.

Re:Considering a CMS? Read this! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27050243)

So by the original poster's analogy:
Joomla = Linux
Wordpress = Max OS X
Drupal = Windows?

developer point of view (1)

dblackshell (1450807) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049475)

  • Joomla! for blogging is like using a PC just for playing music.
  • Wordpress as a CMS solution is like using an iPOD for playing movies.

Sure Wordpress can do the job as a CMS, but when you'll need a higher degree of customization you'll need to digg into the code, where Joomla! might have already that feature somewhere in the administrative panel...

p.s. I know it wasn't the best analogy, but still...

Applies to nearly all OSS projects. (1)

Computershack (1143409) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049527)

Crap interfaces seem to be the order of the day amongst many OSS projects mainly due to the fact that the only people involved are coders who have a mindset of "as long as it works, who gives a fuck what it looks like"? Sadly it means that although they can get the full potential out of their project, others can't due to stuff being hidden, overcomplication etc.

GIMP is an excellent example. It is truly powerful but most of it is hidden away in a mish-mash of different menus and counter-intuitive locations. Likewise, much of Windows home use marketshare has been because of an easy to use GUI compared to Linux. It's still the same at the moment because although Linux distros have made quite massive strides towards addressing this, sadly many of the GUI administrative tools don't work or you have the laack of consistency with things like keyboard shortcuts.

J2SE vs Safari? (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27049535)

Their next article is on the usability of J2SE vs Safari:

"..they both render webpages but it took me 43 hours of crying to get my Netbeans app to render a webpage... In Safari I just typed the URL and - done! Conclusion: programming languages' usability sucks. Better to use, like, actual programs."

in our office... (2, Informative)

powerspike (729889) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049545)

When we start building a site (for anything), the first question is - is it going to be run by tech staff or admin staff, if it's admin staff, it's wordpress, trying to teach admin staff about front page featured, order etc, their eyes just glaze over.

Been able to just tell them to "click on new post, put it in, and click on publish" makes life so much easier...

More like KDE vs Gnome than Linux vs MacOSX... (1)

knarf (34928) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049563)

I'd say the comparison between Linux and MacOSX vs Joomla/Wordpress is wrong in one very important point: both Joomla as well as Wordpress are free. Linux is free. MacOSX is not. I see that the person who made the comparison is using a Mac so I see where he is coming from but that does not mean he should forget that one very important point. His favourite computing platform is proprietary, can not be shared between friends and family and will even land you in jail if you try to do so on a large scale. Share Linux, Joomla or Wordpress and its authors will cheer you on.

Re:More like KDE vs Gnome than Linux vs MacOSX... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27049729)

I don't understand why I keep seeing "free (as in beer)" in response to all questions about or comparisons to OSS. "Oh, yeah? Well, if I use Linux or OSS program Foo I can mooch off the work of others! So it's free". To you. For what you're doing. It cost effort and time somewhere.

I've never expected a free car from someone. I have a bunch of wood working tools; I paid for them all.

I'm a professional. If something is useful and saves me time and money because of its advantages in usability, features, or compatibility then it's worth the investment. As for my friends and family, I would rather buy them copies of said software so they're not dependent on an expert--whether that be in a newsgroup, forum, or by phone--every time they go to the local electronics store and pick up a new digital camera or scanner or printer.

Let the religious war commence! (1)

godfra (839112) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049571)

I intend to fight valiantly under the banner of e107. The admin panel is great and the modules are very easy to play with and customise.

Joomla! (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27049581)

I run about 3 sites with Joomla!

I totally agree that Joomla! has its weaknesses ...
The biggest problem of which is the modules/components/etc that are not core to Joomla! tend to 'suck'.

However ... despite this working with Joomla! ... especially 1.5.x is really a piece of cake. Not knowing css or php ... I learned how to write my own template in about 30 min, my own component in about the same ... and I have produced some very functional professional sites.

Anyways ... I have heard the Joomla! bashing lately and it's a little much. I think anyone using Joomla! will be extremely happy with it!

Lines of Code (1)

Extremus (1043274) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049585)

Hence, even if WordPress only offers 70% of the features of Joomla!, which I am pretty sure it does, their code is written much more efficiently.

Since when less lines of code is synonym of better software?!?!?!

Joomla is evil. (3, Interesting)

Swampash (1131503) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049609)

I have administered (and currently administer) a number of sites for various clients across a wide range of publishing systems - flat html, php, various CMSes running on Linux, UNIX, and Windows servers.

I cannot find the words to convey the depth of the hatred and loathing I feel for Joomla. It embodies the worst of Open Source - as if it were written by a million angsty teenagers suffering from ADHD, with duplicated functionality across a hundred different modules, little or no sensible documentation, and the usability issues...! Most CMSes try and at least look like some thought has been given to how people in the real world will use them. Joomla feels and behaves like it was designed to be DELIBERATELY confusing, as if the author of any given module was sneering at his imaginary end user, thinking "it's perfectly obvious to ME what to do here, fuck you if you can't work it out, n00b".

Gah! Just thinking about Joomla makes me want to go and wash my hands.

Re:Joomla is evil. (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27049757)

It's funny how people are different. I among many solution use Joomla! very often and for me it gets the job done very quickly. I do agree that usability and ways things have to be done sometimes could be improved, but I am overall very happy with the project. One thing I hate about WP is that they have security updates every week and therefore "maintenance" is annoying in that regard. I find it strange people don't mention it actually.

Re:Joomla is evil. (1)

fluffernutter (1411889) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049949)

I think it all depends how fussy you are.. Joomla is good if the installable modules do exactly what you want. But part of the problem is that the modules can't build on one another; they are and remain separate entities so you end up with a LOT of awkwardness... Say for example you have two seperate modules you need to use, an uploading module and a file viewing module. You can never upload it and then view it. You need to go HERE to upload it, and then go HERE to view it. Furthermore, you will have to jump through hoops to make the uploading module put the file in a place that the viewing module can see it. I've set up Joomla sites for people but it is hardly the solution for everyone. It's really an application with a bunch of seperate mini-apps glomed on rather then something that you can build to work as a whole. Don't even get me started on finding a nice template. It is almost impossible to find a really polished one for free. Unless you pay for one a person with mediumish standards will need to relax them quite a bit.

Re:Joomla is evil. (3, Insightful)

gravyface (592485) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049919)

See, here's where you're wrong: Joomla makes it incredibly easy to grant full editing access to anyone visiting your site!

How?

With hundreds of essential 3rd-party modules [milw0rm.com]! These action-packed add-ons feature high-quality and easy-to-use SQL injection exploits, empowering your visitors to take full control and do whatever they want to your site.

Now that's usability!

I think I might compare... (4, Funny)

sortius_nod (1080919) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049615)

Linux with a fountain pen.

While Linux is more feature packed, my fountain pen is easier to setup.

Therefore, fountain pens seem to be designed for "average Joe", and Linux is designed for engineers.

personally, Joomla is a nightmare to tweak (1)

petes_PoV (912422) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049749)

For all it's "friendly" facade, once you try to do anything with Joomla that's more complicated than selecting the modules you want to use, you have to get deep and dirty in XML, PHP, CSS and a whole mess of languages, undocumented code and interdependencies.

A couple of years ago I was attracted to Joomla as a way to quickly produce some professional looking websites. However, the logo I wanted to use was a different size from the standard Joomla template.

Just making this simply and obvious change meant I had to open up parts of the Joomla code and hack it - in trial-and-error ways, due to a total lack of documentation.

It may be better now, or maybe even documented (although lack of written descriptions is OSS's single, biggest weakness), but I was completely put off by this initial experience, that I never touched it again.

While it might be a nice platform for some tech-heads to show off their prowess amongst their peers, for casual users who just want to GET STUFF DONE it sucks fatally.

Should engineers focus on usability? (1)

Lord Bitman (95493) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049765)

No, of course not. Engineers should focus on engineering. Usability experts (sidenote: what a loaded term. First step, get a better name for the people who focus on usability) should focus on usability. Developers (who are often also the engineers) should coordinate with UI people and engineers to make the end result.

Successful != Popular (1)

Per Abrahamsen (1397) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049839)

Successful free software projects focus on the needs of those likely to contribute to the projects.

This can obviously be other developers who contribute with patches, but it can also be businesses that contribute to Red Hat Linux by buying an enterprise version of Red Hat Linux, or ordinary net surfers who contribute to Mozilla by using the build-in Google search facilities.

If you want a free software project to become popular, you should try to find a way to make increased popularity turn into increased contributions, like Red Hat and Mozilla did. If not, the project will die out along with your passion for the project.

PHPNuke (0, Offtopic)

ubrgeek (679399) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049881)

I don't know if it's still entirely free, but PHPNuke [phpnuke.org] was always relatively simple to set up and always seemed to have the modules I wanted to do what I needed. Granted, this was before "blogging" but as editors we could always post entries (we used it for technology news, writing a quick summary and then posting a link to the story). So it's not apples to apples, but it was a CMS solution and would seem to be at least partly an alternative for either of the mentioned apps.

Car Analogy? (1)

Laser_iCE (1125271) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049915)

"PlayingWithWire makes a bold analogy: 'If Joomla! is Linux, then WordPress is Mac OS X.'"

What's all this Linux and Mac OS X talk?! I'm a slashdotter! I DEMAND a car analogy to help better my understanding.

Thank you.

CushyCMS (1)

Tigris666 (197729) | more than 5 years ago | (#27049993)

The reason you are using a CMS is because your client can't edit HTML to save themselves. So bells and whistles of joomla/wordpress never made sense to me.

That's what I like about CushyCMS, usability is not even a question.

Granted, you can't host it yourself, but whatever, it's free.

Joomla is the best crap CMS out there (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27050003)

Hello there,

I have had experience with Joomla since the Mambo days in 2003 and have tried many other cms's out there, like WP and Drupal and I have to say that Joomla is the best crap cms out there.

They are all garbage, but Joomla is the better one.

They all have lousy documentation and once you install them they grow a mind of their own. It's like - "well now that you managed to install me, try and figure me out SUCKER!"

They are all lousy in security and I could go on and on.

IMO, the only thing that sets Joomla back is the people that run the show over there. They are the most arrogant people I have ever met in a community forum and their forum is run with one thing in mind. If you rag on Joomla they will ban you or delete your account. They take criticism very badly.

I witnessed the banning of a few gurus there, one of them got thrown out because something was said about Rochen web hosting.

less usability = more money (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27050013)

It takes some reading until you know how to use Joomla. This has turned out to be an advantage for me, because I earn money by teaching Joomla and creating Websites as a part-time job. Sadly, most people making themes for Joomla want to make money too and I don't enjoy teaching. So I'm not sure if I stick with it.

kdawson... (1)

agnosticanarch (105861) | more than 5 years ago | (#27050125)

Does anyone else wonder if kdawson is its own "anonymous reader"? The only 'upset people' are the Slashdot readers that constantly have to see this crap clog up the page.

kdawson, go away. Please. Seriously. Go back to digg or fark or where ever you came from. Just go.

~AA

Who uses Wordpress for Web development??? (1)

NoSuchGuy (308510) | more than 5 years ago | (#27050135)

Who uses Wordpress for Web development?
blogging: yes
Web development: me not

Joomla fails technically (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27050141)

It's not just about usability. Joomla is just a very poorly written piece of software. From the inside it looks like a hack. Duplicated code is all over the place, various parts of the system are quite obviously written by different people using completely different styles. Etc...

This makes the system hard to use, hard to modify, and worst of all: insecure. Joomla has had so many security problems that I couldn't even list them all.

and (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27050179)

...and Mac OSX is a security nightmare

Load More Comments
Slashdot Account

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?

Don't worry, we never post anything without your permission.

Submission Text Formatting Tips

We support a small subset of HTML, namely these tags:

  • b
  • i
  • p
  • br
  • a
  • ol
  • ul
  • li
  • dl
  • dt
  • dd
  • em
  • strong
  • tt
  • blockquote
  • div
  • quote
  • ecode

"ecode" can be used for code snippets, for example:

<ecode>    while(1) { do_something(); } </ecode>
Sign up for Slashdot Newsletters
Create a Slashdot Account

Loading...