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Smart Immigrants Going Home

kdawson posted more than 5 years ago | from the no-longer-the-only-land-of-opportunity dept.

Education 770

olddotter writes "A 24-page paper on a reverse brain drain from the US back to home countries (PDF) is getting news coverage. Quoting: 'Our new paper, "America's Loss Is the World's Gain," finds that the vast majority of these returnees were relatively young. The average age was 30 for Indian returnees, and 33 for Chinese. They were highly educated, with degrees in management, technology, or science. Fifty-one percent of the Chinese held master's degrees and 41% had PhDs. Sixty-six percent of the Indians held a master's and 12.1% had PhDs. They were at very top of the educational distribution for these highly educated immigrant groups — precisely the kind of people who make the greatest contribution to the US economy and to business and job growth." Adding to the brain drain is a problem with slow US visa processing, since last November or so, that has been driving desirable students and scientists out of the country.

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Go... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27058453)

...Home
BTW, First Post!

H1B's leaving (5, Insightful)

gravos (912628) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058847)

You know, one thing that no one ever bothered to mention is that they might be leaving BECAUSE they can't find good jobs here. A lot of the kids at the university I went to had to go back to their own countries after graduation, not because they wanted to, they love America. They can't find an employer willing to put up with all the BS that uncle sam requires so they can become citizens.

Barriers to entry never help anybody. Uncle Sam, tear down this wall.

I guess they ran out (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27058457)

...of secret documents and technology to steal

Re:I guess they ran out (5, Insightful)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058563)

I guess they ran out of secret documents and technology to steal

Yep, they've just found out that they can themselves engineer better stuff than they can steal from the U.S. today.

Re:I guess they ran out (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27058803)

I guess there's a first time for everything.

good riddance (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27058461)

the indians can go back to their straw hat homes and shitty music, and the chinese can go suck their leader's dick while he shoves an ak up their asses. Everyone knows that the Germans invented everything important so who gives a shit about about indians and chinese who work their asses off to produce inferior quality products and technologies.

Re:good riddance (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27058855)

Now if we could only get the Mexicans outta here(they reproduce like cockroaches and don't even bother to get an education) and make the blacks harvest the vegetables and mop the floors...for free.

RUSH LIMBAUGH FOR PRESIDENT IN 2012!!!

Let them go (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27058467)

It's about time we make some room for real US citizens. There's nothing special about the foreigners. We can make more.

There's plenty of room. (4, Insightful)

raehl (609729) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058507)

The fact of the matter is that intelligent foreigners exist. They can work here, or they can work there. The question, then, is it better if they work here or there?

The answer is obvious - we want them here.

As for 'room' for American citizens, if you can't compete with a guy who was born in India, with all your American-born advantages, he's either just plain smarter than you, or just plain works harder than you. Either way, he deserves your job, and the American company hiring him shouldn't be saddled with your either less-intelligent or less-driven self just because the more qualified candidate was born in the wrong spot.

Re:There's plenty of room. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27058587)

That is the lamest argument I have ever heard. Sure Americans should be able to compete for the job, but at what cost? Everyone knows companies hire foreigners on H1B's because they generally work for less money. And to think moments ago I was posting in another article about American quality of life and how it was created by the middle class. I agree that the best (wo)man should get the job, foreign or domestic. I also think that our country will only sustain that for so long. Would you kindly explain to me where the balancing point is?

Re:There's plenty of room. (0)

zach_the_lizard (1317619) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058641)

Lower costs equal lower cost products. Lower cost products = dollar that goes farther, which means that less money is needed to survive.

Re:There's plenty of room. (4, Insightful)

CastrTroy (595695) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058601)

I agree with this. If someone is willing to do your job for less than you are, or is able to do a better job at the same rate, then they should get the job over you. However, in many cases, the people they are hiring aren't necessarily better at the job, or better motivated. In many cases the only deciding factor is how cheaply they will work, regardless of whether they are getting sub-standard results out of the employees. No customer likes tech support from overseas, yet many companies provide this, simply to decrease operation costs. The customers are unhappy, but the business makes more money in the long run.

Re:There's plenty of room. (1)

saiha (665337) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058785)

Actually I didn't interpret raehl's post specifically in value/dollar. The reason it doesn't really work here is we are talking about the smart creative people, something that is more (in my opinion) than simply doing a job.

Yes someone could do my "job" for less money but I believe I put more into it than simply fulfilling some basic requirements. So instead of money, I compete on qualifications and ability. If I cannot compete with a foreigner then I either need to apply to a different/less job or get more education.

The problem is that money is often a factor, immigrants will work for less until they are established here, which is where a lot of the resentment comes from that I have seen.

Re:There's plenty of room. (5, Insightful)

Jason Earl (1894) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058619)

Precisely. I can compete with Indians that live around the corner. They have to pay the same taxes (mostly), and they have comparable expenses. If technology continues to shift from the United States to India, however, American technology workers are screwed.

As long as all of the truly bright people in the world come to the U.S. to work then the U.S. will continue to have a long-lasting advantage over the rest of the world. When that stops happening, then the U.S. economy is really headed for trouble.

Re:There's plenty of room. (5, Insightful)

ejtttje (673126) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058705)

I agree, and I'll add this assumes the foreign graduates can get the visa and work permits needed to stay in the US. The harder we make it for them to stay, the more go back to their homes.

For anyone who complains about competition from foreign workers for US jobs, consider if they go home, they will be assisting or starting competing companies there. Then it's just *your personal* job that has competition, its the *entire company*, and if the foreign company wins out, *all* the jobs get laid off.

It is by far in our best interest to try to keep all the best and brightest here in our country... we should only be so lucky to have such a draw...

Re:There's plenty of room. (1)

einhverfr (238914) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058713)

I agree. This is likely to increase offshoring of American jobs.

However, I think that aside from effects on commodity prices, more distribution of wealth in the knowledge industry will probably help considerably in improving the standard of living for everyone.

Re:There's plenty of room. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27058947)

help considerably in improving the standard of living for everyone.

The wealth of a few hundred million Americans spread among the billions of the rest of the world will buy everyone an extra bowl of rice for dinner tonight. The world thanks you.

Re:There's plenty of room. (1)

technomom (444378) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058737)

Mostly that's true, but I'll quibble a little.

Just like anything else that has price, your replacement doesn't have to be better. He or she just has to be good enough to get the job done.

There's a difference.

Re:There's plenty of room. (5, Insightful)

joeflies (529536) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058755)

Except that you ignore the fact that the H1-B's arent' competing with you on the open market. The h1-b must work there, or leave the country within 10 days if they can't find a new position.

So the H1-B's are working here with a neck in the guillotine - work hard, accept the conditions, and take the pay they are given or go home. They don't have a choice of finding another job they may be highly qualified for without having to get a sponsor.

So employers fill these slots with employees who will work longer and work cheaper in order to stay in the US. Does that really sound like you have a fair shot of getting that job just because you're more qualified.

Re:There's plenty of room. (1)

joocemann (1273720) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058835)

Another good question is why we aren't putting the money we put into these people into our own citizens; citizens who will be much less likely to sneak off and leave the hand that fed them out to dry.

Re:There's plenty of room. (1)

divisionbyzero (300681) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058851)

"...he's either just plain smarter than you, or just plain works harder than you..."

or just plain will accept less pay. Obviously it's not always the case but it plays a part. For the most part it's more of an issue for so-called "unskilled" labor where cost is the only differentiation between employees.

Re:There's plenty of room. (4, Insightful)

Teckla (630646) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058863)

As for 'room' for American citizens, if you can't compete with a guy who was born in India, with all your American-born advantages, he's either just plain smarter than you, or just plain works harder than you.

Oh my God, you're such an insulting ass. And you got modded +5 for it! Unbelievable.

Even if H-1B workers are good for the U.S., which is debatable, it doesn't matter in the long run, because American companies will continue to offshore work because of the cost of living in the U.S.

It simply does not matter if an American is equal to, or better than, a foreign counterpart, because the American has an insanely high cost of living and cannot hope to compete wage-wise with someone that lives in a country with a low cost of living.

The H-1B debate is pointless. Americans are too expensive, even H-1B's living in America are too expensive. The trend will be to continue to offshore the work in order to leverage lower costs of living elsewhere.

Re:There's plenty of room. (1)

hemp (36945) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058925)

I feel the same way about illegal aliens. If they are willing to work for less money, put up with racial and sexual harassment, and get cheated out of their wages, then they deserve your job.

Re:Let them go (4, Interesting)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058529)

It's about time we make some room for real US citizens.

Presumably, most of those people originally wanted to become "real" (is there any other kind?) US citizens as well, but realized they have to jump through too many hoops for it to be worth it.

(or do you mean that "real US citizen" is a White Protestant guy with Anglo-Saxon lineage?)

Of course, you can have those guys working in engineering, physics or biotech fields in US - preferably as citizens - or you can have them working on thermonuclear warheads, delivery systems, and biological weapons in China or Russia. Your pick.

Re:Let them go (5, Funny)

interkin3tic (1469267) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058539)

There's nothing special about the foreigners. We can make more.

You can't make more Foreigner, AND THEY ARE TOTALLY SPECIAL!

You're as cold as ice if you don't think so! Man, these head games you are playing really make me hot blooded...

Fortunately, they are still alive, well, touring, and rocking, so we don't need to make more.

Can you blame them? (5, Insightful)

HangingChad (677530) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058469)

The American dream used to be a house in the country. Now it's a house in another country.

Re:Can you blame them? (4, Insightful)

thesolo (131008) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058509)

The American dream used to be a house in the country. Now it's citizenship in another country.

Fixed that for you.

Re:Can you blame them? (1, Informative)

CannonballHead (842625) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058773)

Eh, no. Now it's money.

Re:Can you blame them? (2, Interesting)

Adilor (857925) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058547)

No blame whatsoever. The US seems to be a sinking ship as of late; why not abandon it and head to solid ground? I'd likely do the same if I were in their position. I don't blame them one bit. It's like Zelos from ToP said. "I side with the strongest." In terms of one's own self-preservation, it's a very smart move.

It begs a question, though. Will there be some time down the road when, should our economy rebound and achieve the levels that those people once sought again? And, if so, would we see a sort of inverse-mass-exodus? Only time will tell, I suppose.

Re:Can you blame them? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27058749)

I'm pessimistic about a resurgent economy that puts America on the same path it was in mid 90's in terms of leading the world in new markets. The infrastructure is crumbling. Healthcare, subpar primary education, lack of access to cheap capital.. these things are going to take a front seat in the next decade in order to build a platform for the next generation. I view 2010-2025 period as damage control.

This is bad strategy. (5, Insightful)

raehl (609729) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058589)

I think a lot of Americans don't realize why America became the superpower it is.

For thousands and thousands of years, the way to increase your nation's power was to go and invade the other nation, subjugate them, and take their stuff.

The problem is that's a pretty expensive way of going about things. The answer?

Immigration!

Why fight through the world subjugating people when you can just open up the gates of immigration and the best, brightest and hardest working of the other nation's populace will voluntarily and at their own expense subjugate themselves?

Much cheaper and more effective than invasion!

Re:This is bad strategy. (5, Insightful)

saiha (665337) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058823)

The issue in the US though is instead of going into development of high-tech fields, Americans have been going into management of those fields. In my biased opinion in general becoming a generic MBA is easier than engineering/science so if eng/sci is being filled by immigrants, natives will go the other route. When the immigrants leave with all our IP all we are left with is paper pushers.

We (meaning America) needs to start churning out more home-grown techies. We still want to encourage immigration though.

Re:This is bad strategy. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27058829)

+5 holy crap insightful batman?

Re:Can you blame them? (1, Funny)

interkin3tic (1469267) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058891)

No, my dream is always that the zombies are about to catch me, when I realize I'm naked and then start falling. Then I wake up.

Damn, that leaves me. (1)

Bobzibub (20561) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058471)

I'll close the door! = )

Good riddance (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27058479)

I'm tired of the smell of curry.

Re:Good riddance (5, Funny)

interkin3tic (1469267) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058557)

I'm tired of the smell of curry.

Then you, sir, are tired of life.

Re:Good riddance (4, Funny)

carlzum (832868) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058857)

I'm tired of the smell of curry.

Oh no! The summary said PhDs and business managers were leaving, so I wasn't worried. But if the restaurant proprietors are going we have to act now. This is America, you can have your doctors and scientists, but for the love of God, don't take our food.

visa's (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27058481)

I dont understand why we get so many potential immigrants into this country through the higher education system when we do not want to give them job opportunities. The number of visa's and offers for higher education should be correlated.

Re:visa's (5, Insightful)

Orome (159034) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058521)

There's also the fact that many of them get scholarships/fellowships/teaching assistantships from US universities. Essentially, American taxpayer money has gone into funding their education, and because of idiotic political reasons they are going back. Of course the layman just sees them as taking up a job, and won't see the fact that
a) They could create more jobs
b) A US-educated immigrant going back is a net loss (in terms of taxpayer money) for the country.

Re:visa's (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27058567)

And what scholarships would that be? When I was a foreign undergrad I got to pay full price for the privilege of attending a U.S. university. No American taxpayer-funded scholarships whatsoever for me.

Re:visa's (1)

Orome (159034) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058623)

I said "Many of them" and not "all of them". Perhaps I should have said "some of them". I also think that there are more scholarships available for masters/PhD programmes than for undergraduate studies.

It just seems illogical to me that this country would not want to keep the professionals whose education they paid for.

Re:visa's (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27058843)

Cite please. I'm not the AC above.

Re:visa's (2, Insightful)

CastrTroy (595695) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058649)

It's also true that any US Educated person, immigrant or not, going to some other country is a net loss. The US person leaving is a bigger net loss, since most likely their tuition didn't contain the astronomical international student fees.

Re:visa's (2, Interesting)

saiha (665337) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058859)

Sometimes its a loss, sometimes it isn't. Sometimes it is only a short term loss.

A US citizen who will probably return to the US will probably be a short-term loss with a long-term gain. A foreign citizen may bring American ideals to their home country which, barring obesity, is probably a good thing. They may also spread a view of Americans that isn't from Jerry Springer.

Re:visa's (1)

Quetzo (753720) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058911)

Funding opportunities for foreign students come from university resources only. They are not eligible for FAFSA, state or local government scholarships.

Fellowships are rare, most foreign graduate students end up getting a teaching assistantship or research assistantship. Undergrads don't even have that. Further, they cannot take up jobs off-campus which generally pay as much or better than on-campus jobs.

Re:visa's (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058593)

I dont understand why we get so many potential immigrants into this country through the higher education system when we do not want to give them job opportunities. The number of visa's and offers for higher education should be correlated.

While a U.S. student visa is a "potential immigration" visa (in that you're allowed to apply for permanent residence while on it), not everyone it is supposed to immigrate, and not everyone does. A lot of people come to U.S. (and other First World countries) to get quality education, and then return to their home country where its relative value is much higher.

Get-Out-Sourcing? (2, Funny)

NickyGotz22 (1427691) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058499)

Do you think this will mean jobs in India and China will get outsourced to a broke white boy like me now?

Re:Get-Out-Sourcing? (2, Funny)

vk2 (753291) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058545)

Do you think this will mean jobs in India and China will get outsourced to a broke white boy like me now?

Your burger flipping skills are of no use; Indians generally are vegetarians and those who eat meat prefer chicken and/or lamb. Off course you could learn to cook chat items and open your own dhela on chowpati.

Nice -- more of what we already knew (5, Insightful)

erroneus (253617) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058523)

I just have to wonder how much more of this erosion of the U.S. the U.S. is willing to accept and permit? H1-Bs and lowering of wages, offshoring and outsourcing services are all great ways for companies to increase their bottom lines. But when EVERYONE is doing it, these companies ultimately create poor and unemployed customers! This is not sustainable.

People constantly ask "so protectionism is the answer?" Right now, yes it is!

It seems that everyone and every entity is seeming short, fast turn-around and ever-increasing bottom lines using "growth percentage" as a metric for success and viability. (Reality check! In no part of the universe is growth a sustainable metric!!)

Re:Nice -- more of what we already knew (2, Insightful)

sledge_hmmer (1179603) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058651)

Your whole post just seems like a random rant not terribly relevant to the article.

If anything what the article does say that a fifth of the Chinese and nearly half the Indians that left actually entered on temporary visas (such as H1-Bs).

It's these people that help add value to the economy by developing technology, starting companies and driving innovation thus creating jobs. So they are a necessary part of the solution to increasing American competitiveness in the 21st century.

Re:Nice -- more of what we already knew (3, Insightful)

erroneus (253617) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058897)

First they enter the U.S. and depress wages. Then they leave the depressed wages in their wake. Meanwhile, the U.S. has fewer "smart" people getting such degrees and training and will take some time before a bounce back can occur.

Protectionism worsened the Great Depression (0)

EMB Numbers (934125) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058663)

Protectionism deepened and worsened the Great Depression.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/id/17606.htm [state.gov]
"...beggar-thy-neighbor" policies of the 1930s. ... For example, U.S. imports from Europe declined from a 1929 high of $1,334 million to just $390 million in 1932, while U.S. exports to Europe fell from $2,341 million in 1929 to $784 million in 1932. Overall, world trade declined by some 66% between 1929 and 1934."

Re:Nice -- more of what we already knew (5, Insightful)

hazem (472289) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058687)

It seems that everyone and every entity is seeming short, fast turn-around and ever-increasing bottom lines using "growth percentage" as a metric for success and viability.

This kind of thinking is a systemic problem and not just in the job market.

Consider the mortgage foreclosure issue. For a single bank making a foreclosure decision, it makes perfect sense to foreclose a bad loan, realize the loss, and then recover the value by selling the property. This is even okay to happen "regularly" as long as it's a relatively minor level of activity. But once you reach (as another posted pointed out) a "tipping point", this behavior that's good for an individual suddenly becomes extremely detrimental to everyone.

This was magnified by an unwillingness by the banks to re-negotiate the raise in rates on adjustable rate loans. Again, on a case by case basis, it makes sense for the bank to "stick to their guns" and force the consumer to pay the higher rate. But doing this to too many people will cause a large number of them to foreclose. That just refers back to the previous paragraph.

With too many homes in foreclosure, values of entire neighborhoods drop and people are stuck with homes that aren't worth what they owe. Many walk away leaving the banks with properties they can't sell in neighborhoods that are devalued.

The short-term case of chasing the profit prevented the longer term view of seeing that what they were doing was destroying the market. And now, after so much damage, they're being forced to do the very things they should have been doing in the first place - negotiating rates to help keep homeowners in their homes.

Re:Nice -- more of what we already knew (1)

maxume (22995) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058789)

I thought they were only offshoring the productive jobs, if they are offshoring the service jobs, we are fucked!

Re:Nice -- more of what we already knew (5, Insightful)

Red Flayer (890720) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058875)

Let me start by saying that your username is apropos.

I just have to wonder how much more of this erosion of the U.S. the U.S. is willing to accept and permit? H1-Bs and lowering of wages, offshoring and outsourcing services are all great ways for companies to increase their bottom lines.

First, there is nothing wrong with outsourcing. Hell, I outsource my lawncare to a neighborhood kid. You do know that outsourcing is substantively different than offshoring, right?

But when EVERYONE is doing it, these companies ultimately create poor and unemployed customers! This is not sustainable.

You're right it's not sustainable; eventually those unemployed people find jobs that are either more productive and valuable to society, or they find employment doing something else... at a price more in line with what the work is worth. There is no inherent reason an artificial restriction on labor (tight immigration policy) should be allowed to prop up wages... in the long run, this results in a smaller market for goods.

In re: offshoring, I'm sure we completely disagree, but from a humanitarian perspective, it's far better to lift some people out of abject poverty in developing nations than it is to slightly increase someone's already-high standard of living in the US.

People constantly ask "so protectionism is the answer?" Right now, yes it is!

Yes, we have a surplus of labor right now. And that's painful for some. But protectionism is not the answer. It lengthened and deepened the great depression, and it will do the same thing now. Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it.

It seems that everyone and every entity is seeming short, fast turn-around and ever-increasing bottom lines using "growth percentage" as a metric for success and viability. (Reality check! In no part of the universe is growth a sustainable metric!!)

Except, perhaps, the universe as a whole. Joking aside, why should economic growth not be sustainable long-term? Seriously? It's not like it's constrained by physical goods or anything... it's an intellectual construct that doesn't have absolute limits. I fully agree that "short-termism" is a flawed way to assess economic vitality of a company, and country, or an economy. But I disagree that growth is not sustainable. Consider that every trade transaction, in theory, represents economic growth (economics is not zero-sum, in case you have no knowledge of economics).

At any rate, protectionism is not the answer, now or ever. It only serves to reduce economic vitality... and this is especially so if other nations retaliate (which they surely would). If you had your way, we'd lose the benefit that all these immigrants, etc, would bring to our future economy. You want to talk about being motivated by short-term profits? You sir, with your talk of protectionism, are doing exactly that.

Tipping point (5, Insightful)

bindo (82607) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058533)

This is the end ....

my feeling, in 30 years this moment will be viewed as the tipping point, the moment in which america stopped being the siphon of the worlds best minds.

For the first time in history the melting pot hasn't managed to retain the best.
Those people will bring a BIG BOOST in their respoective countries ruling intellighentia.

lots of sour grapes here, but have no one else to blame ....

Re:Tipping point (5, Funny)

SIR_Taco (467460) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058763)

No, a melting pot would retain the heaviest, which the US has quite well

This is good news, folks! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27058541)

American jobs should be going to AMERICANS, not foreigners.

Re:This is good news, folks! (2, Insightful)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058617)

American jobs should be going to AMERICANS, not foreigners.

You miss the point. Those people wanted to become Americans. Now they do not want to, anymore. Wonder why is that?

and why do we care? (4, Interesting)

girlintraining (1395911) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058561)

Our educational system has become so damned expensive that only people who don't live here can seemingly afford it. So it makes sense... As to why the visa system is clogged... Maybe the economic hard times have hit government offices partially responsible for it as well? Oh, what sweet revenge. -_- More seriously though, what difference does it make how well we educate people (either people who stay or leave?) if the environmental conditions necessary for real progress are absent? Our intellectual property system has gutted any hopes of "desirable individuals" doing much of anything besides occupying a desk. The medical field is screwed because people are too afraid of litigation to actually practice medicine at less than a 6000% markup on procedures, which is literally killing people who can't afford it anymore. The lawyers are the only ones in this country that are well-off anymore.

It's no wonder people are jumping ship... Some people looked down the length of the bow and see a giant iceberg in front of the USS Our Future. An iceberg made almost totally of greed, because we couldn't look farther than the end of our damn noses as the social problems we're facing. And leaving is the smart thing -- how long until Canada starts patrolling its borders to keep illegal immigrants from the United States out? Probably not long.

Re:and why do we care? (1)

MikeUW (999162) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058841)

Those illegal US immigrants are in for a disappointment. It's not so drastically different here.

Plus they'll have to buy thicker winter jackets and leave their guns at the border.

Re:and why do we care? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27058865)

It's not just the lawyers that are well off -- greedy, manipulative financial professionals also do quite well.

Re:and why do we care? (5, Insightful)

SIR_Taco (467460) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058931)

Honestly we, Canada, are quite content with the fact that you preach such crazy patriotism to your kids at a young age and we don't have any worries.
      We're taught more to come up with our own views and opinions of the world and the country itself (through school and society). And from looking around, myself, I feel that I live in a country that is much less off-the-wall (so to speak) than the rest of the world. I was not told through school and/or society that I need to worship Canada like it's a second/first religion, however I would put my life up for this country in a heart-beat if it were ever threatened.
      You can't force anyone to love a country, but you can let them.

Re:and why do we care? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27058935)

My ex-girlfriend, a federal attorney, declared bankruptcy and walked away from her house when the price dropped.

Rest of the World (5, Funny)

Roger W Moore (538166) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058577)

Our new paper, "America's Loss Is the World's Gain"...

Shouldn't that be "America's Loss Is the Rest of the World's Gain"? I know you insist on calling us aliens and think we use strange units like metres and kilograms but we are all part of the same world.

Anti Achievement mentality being fostered (5, Insightful)

Shivetya (243324) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058585)

simply tells smart immigrants to wait for a real change before coming back or planning to stay.

I work with 1 H1B and a few naturalized immigrants who all are very well educated (masters for two of them) and their drive is well beyond what the average "American" I see today. They still want it all. The difference is that they are willing to sacrifice and work for it.

When schools allow dummies to pass because it isn't fair to hold them back, when schools don't celebrate their brightest because it offends, when doing grunt work on your path through the job market is for losers, what can you expect? Fortunately there are still more of us than them. The problem is that very little is being done to encourage more of those yearning for success who will work for it instead we are now seeing more who expect everything to be done or handed to them.

Reverse brain drain? It will get worse as some of OUR brightest go overseas to excel.

You think like a ReThuglican Jew (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27058681)

You think like a ReThuglican Jew

Re:Anti Achievement mentality being fostered (4, Insightful)

Red Flayer (890720) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058735)

I work with 1 H1B and a few naturalized immigrants who all are very well educated (masters for two of them) and their drive is well beyond what the average "American" I see today. They still want it all. The difference is that they are willing to sacrifice and work for it.

And with the H1-B, we show them the door instead of welcoming them to stay. These are the people that we should be encouraging to naturalize... hell, we should scrap H1-Bs completely, IMO, but raise the immigration cap for those wishing to naturalize.

The US's great economy in the past was built on the shoulders of risk-taking, hard-working immigrants, and now we want to shut the door to protect "our" jobs? That's a recipe for economic stagnation.

Re:Anti Achievement mentality being fostered (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27058775)

The US's great economy in the past was built on the shoulders of the SLAVES of THIEVING immigrants, and now we want to shut the door to protect "our" jobs? That sounds about right.

Fixed.

Re:Anti Achievement mentality being fostered (2, Insightful)

Red Flayer (890720) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058973)

I know I shouldn't feed the trolls... but you're kidding right?

The US's great economy in the past was built on the shoulders of the SLAVES of THIEVING immigrants, and now we want to shut the door to protect "our" jobs? That sounds about right.

Slavery aside, which is mostly a straw man to my argument...

Cheap labor has been crucial to economic growth in the US. Typically this was immigrant labor in the past. Now we've reduced the flow of cheap labor to a trickle, and it's killing our economy.

We should welcome hard-working and bright immigrants with open arms... not bar the gates against them simply because they are foreign or different. Competition for jobs will improve the US workforce. It will free up labor to do more valuable jobs.

I agree offshoring is a problem for the US economy, but it's a complex issue, and the reasons I think it's a problem are not because it causes some Americans to lose jobs. That's simply an effect of the overpricing of US labor.

The problem with offshoring is that we don't export much to developing nations. If we had a manufacturing base (impossible with our high labor costs, though environmental restrictions are another problem[1]) then creating jobs and wealth in developing nations would be a good thing. But since the only thing we export really significantly is entertainment, we're shit outta luck.

The answer to this is not protectionism. It's the opposite -- reduce our labor costs so we can export to the countries we offshore to. Then we both benefit.

[1] I don't advocate reducing environmental restrictions. Instead we need to make sure our trading partners have equivalent restrictions, so we're all on an even playing field.

Re:Anti Achievement mentality being fostered (1)

j2210 (1381119) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058817)

I hear a lot of talk about parents having a college fund for their kids, or parents paying for their college education - stuff like that. I can't say this is the case for everyone, but I imagine that it hurts some of those kids more than it helps. I just think that if you're at college, paying your own way with the money that you earned, you're going to work harder. It's going to mean more to you. If college gets handed to you by your parents, there's a chance some people might go and party instead of study for that mid-term or whatever.

Obama Declares War on Investors, Entrepreneurs, et (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27058927)

Obama Declares War on Investors, Entrepreneurs, Businesses, And More
Friday, 27 Feb 2009 | 4:39 PM ET
Posted By: Larry Kudlow

Let me be very clear on the economics of President Obama's State of the Union speech and his budget.

He is declaring war on investors, entrepreneurs, small businesses, large corporations, and private-equity and venture-capital funds.

That is the meaning of his anti-growth tax-hike proposals, which make absolutely no sense at all -- either for this recession or from the standpoint of expanding our economy's long-run potential to grow.

Raising the marginal tax rate on successful earners, capital, dividends, and all the private funds is a function of Obama's left-wing social vision, and a repudiation of his economic-recovery statements. Ditto for his sweeping government-planning-and-spending program, which will wind up raising federal outlays as a share of GDP to at least 30 percent, if not more, over the next 10 years.

RELATED LINKS

Current DateTime: 03:39:08 03 Mar 2009
LinksList Documentid: 29434273

        * Obama Walking Tightrope On Banks Bailout
        * Obama Vs Reagan
        * Americans Mixed On Obama's Budget
        * What's In Obama's Budget

This is nearly double the government-spending low-point reached during the late 1990s by the Gingrich Congress and the Clinton administration. While not quite as high as spending levels in Western Europe, we regrettably will be gaining on this statist-planning approach.

Study after study over the past several decades has shown how countries that spend more produce less, while nations that tax less produce more. Obama is doing it wrong on both counts.

And as far as middle-class tax cuts are concerned, Obama's cap-and-trade program will be a huge across-the-board tax increase on blue-collar workers, including unionized workers. Industrial production is plunging, but new carbon taxes will prevent production from ever recovering. While the country wants more fuel and power, cap-and-trade will deliver less.

The tax hikes will generate lower growth and fewer revenues. Yes, the economy will recover. But Obama's rosy scenario of 4 percent recovery growth in the out years of his budget is not likely to occur. The combination of easy money from the Fed and below-potential economic growth is a prescription for stagflation. That's one of the messages of the falling stock market.

Essentially, the Obama economic policies represent a major Democratic party relapse into Great Society social spending and taxing. It is a return to the LBJ/Nixon era, and a move away from the Reagan/Clinton period. House Republicans, fortunately, are 90 days sober, as they are putting up a valiant fight to stop the big-government onslaught and move the GOP back to first principles.

Noteworthy up here on Wall Street, a great many Obama supporters -- especially hedge-fund types who voted for "change" -- are becoming disillusioned with the performances of Obama and Treasury man Geithner.

There is a growing sense of buyer's remorse.

Well then, do conservatives dare say: We told you so?

China moving into the vacuum (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27058597)

Other countries seem quite happy to move into the vacuum being left by the US's policies on visas and visitors. For example, at my university a number of "study in China" scholarships [newcastle.edu.au] have recently been announced. China is also aggressively pursuing research collaborations [itwire.com] within Australia.

They will lead a better life "at home" (5, Interesting)

bogaboga (793279) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058599)

A colleague of mine decided to return to Africa. The money he collected over seven years in the USA would enable him live a better life in his homeland.

A mansion, with a swimming pool and three maids only costs him about 900 dollars to maintain. The respect he would get from the community would be greater and he'll have a chance to eat fresh "organic" fruit.

All in all...good for them...I wish them all the best.

When the economy picks up, I will welcome them to the mighty USA.

Re:They will lead a better life "at home" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27058781)

I will be doing the same thing soon. I have lived in Canada for 5 years but will be returning to my country of birth because i can "retire" at 30 and start my own company with no money pressures. I can't afford to do that in Canada, but back home I can.

I can't for the life of me work out what would (0, Troll)

goldcd (587052) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058605)

have made them want to leave..
..I mean just look at the friendly and completely non-xenophobic 'anonymous' posts that seem to have coagulated beneath this story.

Re:I can't for the life of me work out what would (4, Insightful)

radtea (464814) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058787)

...have made them want to leave..

I've worked in the US twice, the first time in the early '90's in southern California, the second more recently in New England. Both times I felt like kissing the soil of my native country upon return.

Individual Americans are some of the most decent people I've met. Collectively, though, you people scare me.

The change between the early '90's and post-9/11 was striking, from the crazy stuff on TV (Glenn Beck pronouncing that 'security' is the most important thing to any American, when once upon a time it would have been something called 'liberty'), fast-food places with signs announcing that they only hired legal American citizens, and of course the Military Commissions Act of 2006, which temporarily stripped people like me from having access to Habeas Corpus protections.

On the surface, everything was the same. Underneath, the picture was not pretty.

The team I worked with was mostly non-Americans, from both the Far East and Europe, and most of them were highly educated and wanted to stay, but I could never figure out why.

On the good side, like Churchill said, Americans will always find the solution to the problem... after they've tried everything else.

Protectionism (5, Funny)

Legion_SB (1300215) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058613)

Adding to the brain drain is a problem with slow US visa processing, since last November or so, that has been driving desirable students and scientists out of the country.

I like my protectionism like I like my women: passive aggressive!

Re:Protectionism (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27058955)

Well, I like my women like I like my coffee: covered in bees!

Much ado about nothing... (4, Informative)

jeko (179919) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058653)

The temporary H1-B visa was supposed to be good for seven years. The average age at which H1-Bs come to this country is fresh out of college, so 22-23 years old plus seven years is about thirty.

All this says is that the H1-B visa program is working as advertised.

Competition (1)

jnnnnn (1079877) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058661)

I fail to understand why this matters. As long as they're working somewhere, that's good, right? They might even help the people they're working with in countries other than America.

Why does it have to be a competition?

Can you blame them? (5, Insightful)

deodiaus2 (980169) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058669)

Well, there are two major factors.
1) Given the current recession, the number of jobs have fallen off. That and there is pressure to hire an American over someone on a visa. Plus, maybe the foreigners don't want to pay our debt due to all of the bailouts and "Economic stimulus".
2) Xenophobia is alive and well. Even if there were no 9/11, there was a fear of foreigners in the US. Be it left over hostiles from the Cold War, hatred towards Mexicans and South Americans for taking "good jobs" from Americans, Native Americans wanting their land back, or African-Americans wanting a piece of the American Dream and compensation from slavery, there are build up resentments which have been under the surface.
Whenever you evaluate a strategic game or a problem, you can see it by seeing it from the opponents point of view.

Great! (4, Interesting)

xplenumx (703804) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058675)

Training foreign students served two purposes. First, so we have an opportunity to hire the best and brightest. Secondly, so we can expose them to our culture. What better way is there to bring about change in a country than to train some of their top academic leaders? This is how you bring human rights to China and reduce corruption in Mexico.

Re:Great! (1)

pavera (320634) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058961)

Its also the brilliant strategy that has brought us al queda and most of the leaders of terrorist sponsoring countries.... so you go right ahead with your bad self

Immigration/Emigration problem (4, Insightful)

technomom (444378) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058693)

The next time you complain about immigration into the USA, consider how much worse things will be when people no longer even want to come here. Worse, that American citizens start leaving for greener pastures. That day may be coming.

If we have an "immigration problem", it's generally a sign of a healthy economy. It's when we have an "emigration problem", that you know things will be really rough.

okay. bye. (1)

YesIAmAScript (886271) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058697)

I work with lots of Indians and Chinese. And most are very good workers and smart.

But times are tough right now. Everyone is hurting. It's going to be tough to justify more work visas and green cards when companies are laying off.

The economy will turn around some day and hopefully things will be different for these workers then.

well... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27058707)

That's what happens when you promote a culture that punishes and ridicules those who are intelligent and successful and rewards stupidity and laziness.

Re:well... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27058795)

Shut up egghead. America has no place for your point-headed "cause and effect".

Good riddance. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27058709)

Now, if we could just get them to take their more stupid friends with them, then America can fully implode with out foreign impedance.

Wait a minute... (5, Funny)

Chris Burke (6130) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058711)

Are you saying my immigrant coworkers who aren't planning on leaving are stupid? That seems both rash and mean. You take it back!

If the playing field were level, ... (5, Insightful)

BillAtHRST (848238) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058751)

then things might be different.
As it is, the H1B program has merely managed to feed the "fat cats" without improving the lot of US citizens.
By all means, encourage immigration of hard-working, talented, intelligent people.
But allow them to control their own destinies and compete without handicapping them or US citizens by institutionalizing a system that unfairly depresses wages for all.
Maybe we've just reached a sort of equilibrium here, where US wages have stagnated while the rest of world's has grown.

Re:If the playing field were level, ... (4, Informative)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058929)

H1-B wages are not the problem. By law, an employer is required to pay H1-B at least as much or more than the US market average for the given position.

It's the job insecurity that H1-B entails that is a problem.

Higher degrees, my arse. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27058813)

Yah, y'know, I've processed too many immigration applications. I call BS on 51% having Master's and 41% having PhD's. They do not. They have a degree, from a college somewhere, that pretends to be that, but it is not accredited and it is nowhere near real. You start asking these guys about the stuff their degree says they know and they have no answers.

Immigrants (2, Funny)

russlar (1122455) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058871)

'Ey took our jerbs!

Claiming racism and laziness is a cheap shot (5, Insightful)

jeko (179919) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058883)

No, for the billionth time, we don't mind competing on quality. No, for the billionth time, we're not racist. No, for the billionth time, we don't mind the competition. On the contrary, my heart goes out to the H1-Bs I work with because I know they don't have any good choices.

In the most brutal stark terms, H1-Bs are hired specifically because they don't enjoy the same political and legal protection that native workers do. They get paid less, worked like indentured servants, and disposed of like kleenex. I've actually heard one manager scream at the H1-B team he employed "If you're awake, you're working for me!"

This is why you don't see the IT market flooded with French, Canadian or Australian workers, but rather see the market flooded with people from countries struggling with poverty and political horrors.

These poor people are exploited here precisely because the conditions in their home country are so horrific. My heart goes out to the women H1-Bs I've worked with, because I've seen the haunted look in their eye when they speak of home. I once cornered another H1-B over a hideously unethical stunt he pulled to shift the blame away from his own screwup to another, more junior engineer. He robbed my righteous thunder when he got a desperate look in his eyes and pleaded with me, "Look, if he gets fired he can just get another job. If I get fired, they'd make me go back..."

For the billionth time, if we need this talent, then let's do the right thing by these people and offer them citizenship. If we're not prepared to do the right thing, then we shouldn't be using them as scabs to break the back of American labor.

Extremely misleading article (4, Informative)

hemp (36945) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058885)

The article is extremely misleading and makes you think that these companies may have been started by people that came to the US on H1-B visas

They never break out the number of immigrants who come to the US on H1-B visas that start technology companies (H1-B is of course a temporary non-immigration visa).

Google was started by Sergey Brin who was a Jewish immigrant from the Soviet Union whose family immigrated to the US when he 6 and Larry Page of Lansing Michigan.

Andy Grove of Intel fame was a Jewish refugee who fled post WWII Europe to the US (Gordon Moore was born in San Fran and Robert Noyce born in Iowa however, where the actual founders of Intel).

Pierre Omidyar of eBay of course is a Frenchman who moved to this country with his family when he was 6 years old.

Yahoo! founded by David Filo ( cheese head from Wisconsin) and Jerry Yang who came to this country with his family when he 10 from Taiwan.

None of these people came to the US on work visas.

This article is reprinted by Business Week & Wall Street Journal every year close to the May deadline for H1-B visas.

In May, there will be an article about how the 85,000 visas were snapped up in one day due to "shortages" amongst technology and science workers and how we need to have unlimited H1-B visas to fix this problem.

Management? (5, Funny)

Tubal-Cain (1289912) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058933)

They were highly educated, with degrees in management...

So that's our plan for destroying the world!

Colleges are getting gutted as well (2, Insightful)

Dhrakar (32366) | more than 5 years ago | (#27058937)

It is also important to note that for many colleges and universities, foreign nationals make up a large portion of the student body _and_ the faculty in several departments. As these highly talented folks go back, they leave big holes in the departments they leave behind. I think that if all the FNs left our petroleum engineering, for example, department the place would be a ghost town.
   

Kewl! More work for smart local companies! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27058971)

Kewl! More work for smart local companies!

Except, that I want to leave here too before all my money is transfered to people who don't work half as hard as I did to earn it.

Anyone in Argentina hiring technical architects with 20 yrs of experience? If you are, I'm there!

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