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DirectX 10 Coming To Linux and Mac

Soulskill posted more than 5 years ago | from the work-in-progress dept.

Wine 152

twickline writes "Jeremy White posted the 2009 roadmap for Crossover, and wrote, 'We've just shipped a lot of those "under the hood" improvements for games out in CrossOver Games 7.2. We're really pushing Direct X 9 support pretty far along, and getting ready to move on Direct X 10. ... In addition to our normal work of broadening and deepening our application support in Wine, we're going to try to dramatically improve the CrossOver GUI itself. First, the Linux version will get a fresh new look. But both versions are going to get an interface that we hope will bring the power of the Compatibility Center right into the installation view. The key idea is to make it easier to distill the gathered wisdom on unsupported applications and make it far easier to use.'"

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152 comments

Getting rid of Windows (4, Insightful)

tomalpha (746163) | more than 5 years ago | (#27131745)

The only reason I still have a Windows PC at home is for gaming. DirectX 10 support is a step closer to me being able to get rid of it. Can't come soon enough, and I'm happy to pay for it if that's what it takes.

Re:Getting rid of Windows (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27131759)

Once you are able to play DirectX games, DirectX 12 will be on its way. Even some old DirectX8 games aren't running still now because support only goes in for very few extremely popular games that pay Crossover's bills and Hentai games.
I just gave up and play nethack.

Re:Getting rid of Windows (5, Insightful)

sinthetek (678498) | more than 5 years ago | (#27131763)

As long as DirectX is still in use, *nix will always still be a step behind Windows in gaming. Personally I would be pushing for game developers to support OpenGL more than WINE developers to support DirectX

Re:Getting rid of Windows (1)

Dunbal (464142) | more than 5 years ago | (#27131907)

*nix will always still be a step behind Windows in gaming.

      However considering that the age of your average PC gamer is well into his 30's, most of us are patient enough to wait.

Re:Getting rid of Windows (1, Interesting)

Shadow of Eternity (795165) | more than 5 years ago | (#27132509)

As much as I'd like to see *nix do better I hate openGL with a fiery passion. I'll grant that the generally lower performance and responsiveness is almost guaranteed to be the developers fault rather than opengl... but requiring me to go get a third party application purely to keep my monitor from being forced to 60hz every damn time I boot up the game pisses me off.

Re:Getting rid of Windows (2, Informative)

robthebloke (1308483) | more than 5 years ago | (#27132701)

uhm, when you say third party app, do you mean the graphics card driver? (Since you only need to disable v-sync in the graphics card options and the problem is gone)

Re:Getting rid of Windows (1)

Shadow of Eternity (795165) | more than 5 years ago | (#27133075)

No I mean refreshforce to force my screen to run at it's proper 85hz instead of the opengl game's forced 60hz, and vsync controls the game's framerate by syncing the display of frames to your monitor's refresh rate, not the other way around. I've run with vsync before, it helps with tearing but it does not force your refresh rate to 60hz.

Re:Getting rid of Windows (1)

MrMr (219533) | more than 5 years ago | (#27133229)

OpenGL does not force any particular frame rate, it defaults to the monitor refresh with vsync on, so perhaps you should complain to the game developers for overriding that behaviour.

Re:Getting rid of Windows (1)

Shadow of Eternity (795165) | more than 5 years ago | (#27133431)

Onward with the torches then, I can't think of any reason to force a monitor to the lowest refresh rate.

Re:Getting rid of Windows (1)

Sancho (17056) | more than 5 years ago | (#27133569)

No, but there are pretty good reasons to optimize with 60hz in mind--most people these days have LCDs, and most (all?) LCDs are stuck at that frequency.

Re:Getting rid of Windows (2, Informative)

jbarlow (35149) | more than 5 years ago | (#27135793)

I honestly haven't seen a 60hz LCD for years. My four-year-old Samsungs are running at 75hz, and current nicer TVs run at 120hz.
 
/takes off pedantic hat

Re:Getting rid of Windows (2, Interesting)

robthebloke (1308483) | more than 5 years ago | (#27133675)

That's got nothing to do with the graphics hardware at all, it's crap programming. You can enumerate all supported display modes, and you'll generally pick either the highest one, or the current display mode (or offer a choice).

At a guess, I'd say that the game jumping to 60Hz is due to a fixed time step being employed within the update loop of the game (in general this is because physics engines don't work very well with variable time steps). If you do this kind of thing, you have to divorce the rendering from the game update - which some people are pretty bad at doing.

This sounds like it's a case of the game develeoper trying to optimise the code in pretty crap ways such as replacing this:

position += time_delta * 2.0f; // where 2 is speed

with this:

position += 0.03333333333f;

To remove a few mults at runtime. (my opinion is that that stuff just isn't worth doing).

Re:Getting rid of Windows (1)

tixxit (1107127) | more than 5 years ago | (#27134841)

I doubt that's the problem. First off, the game is being capped at 60Hz, but that says nothing about the minimum. The developers will still have to anticipate the game running on a system that cannot support 60Hz (at least some of the time), so regardless they'll have to support "variable" time steps. Even if you fixed the loop interval, and your computer is fast enough, you still couldn't expect exactly 0.0166666.. seconds to pass between each run. I'd also imagine that doing stuff like collision checks before updating an entity's position are a hell of a lot more time consuming then a single multiplication.

Re:Getting rid of Windows (2, Interesting)

Novus (182265) | more than 5 years ago | (#27133443)

but requiring me to go get a third party application purely to keep my monitor from being forced to 60hz every damn time I boot up the game pisses me off.

There are two possible reasons for this:

  • The application explicitly requests a 60 Hz refresh rate; for many applications it makes sense to match the refresh rate to the frame rate, which may be fixed either to have a consistent frame rate over all systems (and 60 Hz is more or less universal for PCs) or because you have content with a specific frame rate (e.g. 60 fields/s M ("NTSC") video).
  • The operating system or video driver defaults to 60 Hz or overrides the selected value.

OpenGL does not even support switching screen modes and often relies on OS-specific mechanisms. DirectX often suffers in my experience (and based on some web searches, in many others') from similar problems and the most common X11 implementations provide screen mode switching mechanisms that are clearly independent of OpenGL and easily (in the "just write lots of numbers into a text file" sense) configured for specific monitor timings.

In conclusion, I can probably make some of the resident Linux zealots happy by saying your problems are probably with Windows, not OpenGL.

Re:Getting rid of Windows (4, Insightful)

MetaPhyzx (212830) | more than 5 years ago | (#27132541)

One has to weigh the push M$ has put behind cultivating coders who feel comfortable doing things in DX (with the advantage of support from M$), versus the shops that have the luxury to tool around in GL (id software and a few others).

Being able to pick up a phone and get support is huge to them, with the added bonus of writing for a select set of API's that are supposedly guaranteed to work with the varying M$ operating systems.

Don't get me wrong; I agree with you. But as the old saying goes: Money talks; bullsh!t...

Re:Getting rid of Windows (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27134177)

Using 'M$' only makes you look childish. Actually it's worse than that, it makes you look like Twitter.

Re:Getting rid of Windows (2, Insightful)

BrokenHalo (565198) | more than 5 years ago | (#27135667)

Using 'M$' only makes you look childish. Actually it's worse than that, it makes you look like Twitter.

Childish, maybe. Who cares? But people have been calling Microsoft M$ far longer than Twitter has been around on Slashdot.

Re:Getting rid of Windows (2, Funny)

BPPG (1181851) | more than 5 years ago | (#27135687)

makes you look childish.

Oh anonymous coward, your criticisms see into our very souls.

Re:Getting rid of Windows (5, Interesting)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 5 years ago | (#27133483)

One of the interesting, but less-often mentioned, things about WINE is that it works on Windows. If WINE adds support for DirectX 10, then this makes it possible to run DirectX 10 games on Windows XP, which gives home users a reason not to upgrade to Vista / Windows 7.

Re:Getting rid of Windows (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27133791)

I have to agree with this. WINE does nothing more than give developers just one more excuse not to support cross-platform software.

Re:Getting rid of Windows (1)

BrokenHalo (565198) | more than 5 years ago | (#27135795)

WINE does nothing more than give developers just one more excuse not to support cross-platform software.

Agreed. Unless there's some absolute imperative to use a given Windows-based application, I prefer to just do without. Fortunately, alternatives usually exist.

OpenGL not adequate (1)

pavon (30274) | more than 5 years ago | (#27134561)

As long as unmodified OpenGL is still in use, *nix will always still be a step behind Windows in gaming. OpenGL and DirectX are simply common APIs for accessing features on graphics cards. OpenGL is no longer a good representation for how these cards operate, and is thus not a good API for programming them.

The question is what is the best way to keep up-to-date with hardware features in a market that is driven by external forces. Do you sit and wait for phoronix to update OpenGL and then try and convince hardware/driver designers and game developers to use it? Do you depend on hardware designers to create their own extensions and developers to write several code paths for different types of cards? Do you create your own extensions to try and unify the vendor extensions?

All of those options sound like a constant game of catch-up to me. On the other hand, consider if *nix adopted a driver framework that better matched the capabilities of today's cards (like Gallium3D), one which DirectX would just be a thin layer to wrap around - practically a native interface, rather than just accessible via the WINE stack, wrapped around a less featurefull interface.

Yes, you would have to update when Microsoft updates in order to keep up, but since the hardware itself is in lockstep with DirectX today, you would need to update anyway. These APIs are usually out for a while before games requiring them are released, and the hardware companies (the ones writing the drivers) will be in talks with Microsoft long before that. By making life easier for driver developers and game programs, you wouldn't be spending as much time playing catch-up because they would be doing more of the work for you.

Re:Getting rid of Windows (1)

Eggplant62 (120514) | more than 5 years ago | (#27135307)

What's wrong with full support for both OpenGL and DirectX being delivered by wine, thereby reaching out to anyone who wants to run a Windows app on Linux and other Wine-capable platforms?

Re:Getting rid of Windows (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 5 years ago | (#27135715)

As long as DirectX is still in use, *nix will always still be a step behind Windows in gaming. Personally I would be pushing for game developers to support OpenGL more than WINE developers to support DirectX

OpenGL isn't available on the Xbox 360, and it is often a source of problems on Windows (why this is, we could argue about all day.) If you want to create a single game engine which supports the largest number of gamers, you use DirectX. OpenGL is definitely in second place there. I personally put the blame directly on 3DFX here; they had starry-eyed visions of being the big swinging dicks in the graphics market, and that they would define the API. By the time they implemented MiniGL it was too late; GLIDE had already done its damage and opened the door for Microsoft to create Direct3D. If you didn't understand Microsoft's "EEE" strategy it would be a puzzling decision, considering that they already had a quite-functional software implementation of OpenGL, which came with Windows NT and which would run on any Win32 platform.

Re:Getting rid of Windows (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27131891)

Frankly I grew tired of wine, having games working then broken again in the next release.
In the end I bought a console and didn't look back.

Re:Getting rid of Windows (5, Funny)

telchine (719345) | more than 5 years ago | (#27132093)

In the end I bought a console and didn't look back.

Yeah, that's the problem I have with console games too... you can't look back very easily.

With a controller, turning around to look behind you is a slow and cumbersome task. I much prefer a keyboard and mouse because you can spin around in under a second, it makes the game feel a lot faster.

Re:Getting rid of Windows (1)

Nursie (632944) | more than 5 years ago | (#27133057)

Left4Dead has a button for spinning 180 in no time at all.

I don't miss PC/mouse gaming at all, and this is coming from a guy who was hardcore into online Quake 12/13 years ago.

Re:Getting rid of Windows (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27133171)

a guy who was hardcore into online Quake 12/13 years ago.

Dude! Please hook us up with copies of Quake 12 and 13.

Re:Getting rid of Windows (1)

nschubach (922175) | more than 5 years ago | (#27133237)

I'm sorry, a button to do a 180 turn is so counterintuitive to playing, especially when your turning is done with a joystick. I love my console, for console like games, but FPS is the domain of the PC for controls alone. What's missing in the console business are more third person "RPG" overhead games like Diablo, Baldur's Gate (hey, I liked it!), Dark Kingdom (yeah, again... I thought it was fun), and some other similar non-fantasy games. Maybe even a Fallout 2 redux with updated graphics, sounds and character enhancements.

Re:Getting rid of Windows (1)

Veggiesama (1203068) | more than 5 years ago | (#27133303)

Left4Dead has a button for spinning 180 in no time at all.

I don't miss PC/mouse gaming at all, and this is coming from a guy who was hardcore into online Quake 12/13 years ago.

Oh man, I had a button for spinning around 180 degrees in Heretic II [wikipedia.org] too!

The memories!

The 10-year-old memories of counter-intuitive control schemes!

Re:Getting rid of Windows (1)

Nursie (632944) | more than 5 years ago | (#27133367)

I meant the two things as separate statements -

If you *must* turn fast then there's this button in this one game. But ignoring that feature in that single game, I still don't miss PC gaming at all. I prefer slouching on the sofa with a controller, it's just more comfortable. And you can turn pretty quick with a controller.

PCs probably will always be where "hardcore" FPS players live. I'm perfectly happy with console FPS's myself, but then my days of being a caffeine-fuelled headshot-merchant are over.

Re:Getting rid of Windows (1)

jgtg32a (1173373) | more than 5 years ago | (#27133457)

I have a highly sensitive mouse so I can easily play on the couch as well.

Re:Getting rid of Windows (1)

Quiet_Desperation (858215) | more than 5 years ago | (#27134095)

Many console games I have played, when you click one of the control sticks, instantly show you the rear view.

oblig, even though it was a funny one (1)

Kashgarinn (1036758) | more than 5 years ago | (#27134703)

Whoosh!

Re:Getting rid of Windows (1)

kiddygrinder (605598) | more than 5 years ago | (#27133757)

Give it a couple years and most big console releases won't be worth having without a patch or 2.

Re:Getting rid of Windows (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27132285)

And before you get any semblance of a workable DX10 implementation under Wine, DX11 will be out.

Re:Getting rid of Windows (1)

robthebloke (1308483) | more than 5 years ago | (#27132727)

However the DX11 spec has been out for about a year, so they've had a fair amount of time to prepare for it. The core spec hasn't actually changed that much, it's just added the new compute shader functionality and done a very minor re-org of the main Device class (by moving some of it into a device context). Given that there isn't a compute shader equivalent in GL just yet, I can imagine that part taking a little while - but the rest of it is trivial.

Re:Getting rid of Windows (1)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 5 years ago | (#27133533)

Given that there isn't a compute shader equivalent in GL just yet, I can imagine that part taking a little while

Yes, it's a shame that there is no compute shader language that is an open standard and designed to interoperate with OpenGL [wikipedia.org] . It's not well-supported yet, but the standard is out and it's backed by companies like AMD, so should start appearing soon.

Re:Getting rid of Windows (1)

robthebloke (1308483) | more than 5 years ago | (#27134097)

As of today I can compile and execute a DX11 compute shader.

As of today I cannot compile and execute an OpenCL shader.

So what part of my assertion that there is no compute shader equivalent in GL just yet do you disagree with exactly?

Re:Getting rid of Windows (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27132307)

It would be nice if they could bundle it in new Linux computers.

I just hope they can put they price really down (like $3 per copy), since they'll be selling thousands of times more.

Re:Getting rid of Windows (1)

0x537461746943 (781157) | more than 5 years ago | (#27134167)

I think you will be saying this forever because DirectX is always getting newer versions and wine based products will always be a step behind. Just replace DirectX 10 with DirectX 11 in a year or two. If you want to get rid of windows just do it. There are plenty of games that work under Linux now to keep you entertained. This will save you money too since you won't rush out to buy the latest game that comes out... you will need to wait until it works under Linux and by that time the price is usually much lower.

Good news for normal Wine too (4, Interesting)

Novus (182265) | more than 5 years ago | (#27131755)

With Wine under the LGPL (making much of CrossOver LGPL) and CodeWeavers supporting Wine development, this will probably result in standard Wine also supporting DirectX 10 soon. I can also see this becoming a DirectX 10 to OpenGL wrapper to provide DirectX 10 features on XP. Both of these would be nice.

Re:Good news for normal Wine too (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27131851)

Re:Good news for normal Wine too (5, Interesting)

IBBoard (1128019) | more than 5 years ago | (#27131931)

I can also see this becoming a DirectX 10 to OpenGL wrapper to provide DirectX 10 features on XP.

That's the wonderful irony about this - Linux, the non-gaming desktop, is going to get DirectX 10 through open-source while Microsoft just ignore the huge majority of people on Windows XP!

Not that I use any games that are DX10, but this is definitely an interesting development.

Re:Good news for normal Wine too (1)

Jurily (900488) | more than 5 years ago | (#27132547)

That's the wonderful irony about this - Linux, the non-gaming desktop, is going to get DirectX 10 through open-source while Microsoft just ignore the huge majority of people on Windows XP!

"Be careful, king of kings. First, you need the victory."

I want DirectX 9 first, if possible. Altough the Intel GM965 driver works better on Linux than on the preinstalled Vista, wine still crashes the whole thing. And by crash, I mean "hard reboot required".

Re:Good news for normal Wine too (1)

David Gerard (12369) | more than 5 years ago | (#27132635)

At least Intel fix Wine-induced crashes, unlike Nvidia.

Re:Good news for normal Wine too (3, Interesting)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 5 years ago | (#27133603)

That's the wonderful irony about this - Linux, the non-gaming desktop, is going to get DirectX 10 through open-source while Microsoft just ignore the huge majority of people on Windows XP!

You seem to be missing the fact that WINE works quite well on Windows (and Mac), and so if WINE supports DirectX 10 then so does XP. A few desktop VM apps are using WINE code to provide DirectX drivers which talk to the host platform's OpenGL implementation. I wouldn't be surprised to see some game publishers investing a little in WINE development and shipping WINE DLLs along with their app to run on XP. This would also give them Mac (and Linux) ports effectively for free.

Re:Good news for normal Wine too (1)

IBBoard (1128019) | more than 5 years ago | (#27135591)

Well, yeah, but putting DX10 on Windows should be Microsoft's job. Putting DX10 on Linux/Mac is basically the community's job (plus a few companies supporting things a bit) and they're doing it better than Windows, despite the fact that DX was designed as Windows-centric.

Re:Good news for normal Wine too (2, Interesting)

Elektroschock (659467) | more than 5 years ago | (#27131963)

I have the impression that the sponsorship rather contributes to no improvements. Best example is the DIB engine. First implementations were proposed years ago but always rejected. It was said it takes like 3 month. Still there would be the option to introduce a DIB engine in a branch and stablize it. It won't happen. We probably have the fourth DIB engine implementation now. The patch rejection policy of the dictatorial project leader can be explained and rationalised by underlying commercial objectives of the commercial implementations which gain here competitive advantages or utter mismanagement of the development process. Sure, it is complicated but the contribution process does not look good. The wine project still does not scale properly in its development.

It also could not be too difficult to cut Wine in pieces and e.g. raise funds for the full and complete implementation of a particular API or the full support of a particular program. It does not happen. I cannot fund the whole API but I would be capable to give a bounty for a particular function. The monolithic development process does not permit real progress. No one knows why a patch is accepted or rejected.

Wine has specific coding styles but no automated quality process like the KDE guys did with Krazy/EBN. And the wine tests used for compatibility checks are known to be very buggy. Wine is nothing but a messy implementation of the Win32 mess.

I also don't see Wine on the political advocacy sphere to urge policy makers to apply stick and carrot for Microsoft to disclose API details, this is a quote from a Microsoft memo found in the 2004 EU antitrust case documents [europa.eu] :

"The Windows API is so broad, so deep, and so functional that most ISVs would be crazy not to use it. And it is so deeply embedded in the source code of many Windows apps that there is a huge switching cost to using a different operating system instead...

        "It is this switching cost that has given the customers the patience to stick with Windows through all our mistakes, our buggy drivers, our high TCO, our lack of a sexy vision at times, and many other difficulties [...] Customers constantly evaluate other desktop platforms, [but] it would be so much work to move over that they hope we just improve Windows rather than force them to move.

        "In short, without this exclusive franchise called the Windows API, we would have been dead a long time ago."

That is more than a smoking gun, hein? Don't you think it would have been possible to get funds from governments and industry players that are stuck with their strategic dependency on Win32? The wine project, despite its stupid patch rejection policy does meet ordinary quality standards in any part and is incapable in its managements to enable and encourage such contributions.

Re:Good news for normal Wine too (1)

David Gerard (12369) | more than 5 years ago | (#27132461)

So where are the links to your patches that were rejected?

Re:Good news for normal Wine too (2, Insightful)

kazade84 (1078337) | more than 5 years ago | (#27132761)

I have the impression that the sponsorship rather contributes to no improvements. Best example is the DIB engine. First implementations were proposed years ago but always rejected. It was said it takes like 3 month. Still there would be the option to introduce a DIB engine in a branch and stablize it. It won't happen. We probably have the fourth DIB engine implementation now. The patch rejection policy of the dictatorial project leader can be explained and rationalised by underlying commercial objectives of the commercial implementations which gain here competitive advantages or utter mismanagement of the development process.

I think that's a little unfair. The DIB engine has been rejected several times because noone has yet managed to implement it in a way which doesn't cause MASSIVE regressions. The DIB engine implementation is huge, Alexandre Julliard (the "dictatorial project leader" as you put it) won't accept code which breaks Wine or is the wrong approach. He also won't accept one massive patch which may cause a tonne of regressions, I don't blame him for that.

I believe the current DIB engine which is being worked on is still going to be rejected because it hasn't solved the fundamental problem with the other approaches - how to implement it in small incremental stages.

I have NEVER seen a patch rejected by AJ for any reason other than it's technically unsound, if your patch is rejected you simply ask in #winehackers and AJ will be happy to tell you what's wrong. His rejections have nothing to do with the commerical applications of CodeWeavers, it's down to code quality.

Re:Good news for normal Wine too (1)

dkegel (904729) | more than 5 years ago | (#27135727)

I hear your frustration. You'd like Wine to work really well, and you are impatient with the current rate of progress. But implementing Win16/win32/win64 is a shitwad of work, so no matter how fast we go, you'll probably always be impatient. And so will I.

The best way to look at the current experimental DIB engine implementation is as a prototype. If apps work well enough with it, it'll be easier to commit the resources to do a production-quality one.

If patches are rejected, it means there's something wrong with them; good, persistant developers who listen to the feedback and submit small, incremental patches can get them accepted. It's true that it can be frustrating at times, but that's not unique to Wine; gcc and the linux kernel are also frustrating for new contributors. And don't even get me started about gibc :-)

http://www.englishbreakfastnetwork.org/krazy [englishbre...etwork.org] looks great, but a lot of its checks are for C++ specific issues, which Wine doesn't have because it's based on C. Wine is well aware of the benefits of automated testing and code analysis. We do have an automated build and test system, see http://test.winehq.org/ [winehq.org] and we're slowly working on getting all the tests green. And we pay attention to Coverity's scans of our source tree. (We also have a patchwatcher, but it's out of action right now because I'm lame.)

If you want to go help raise funds from governmens stuck on win32, please do! I tried to make a little pitch for this at the end of my CeBIT talk last week, see http://kegel.com/cebit [kegel.com] But it's hard to get their attention. First, they aren't impressed unless it can run all their apps, and second, the ones that are really serious about getting away from Windows tend to focus on native applications anyway.

So: the grapes really aren't that sour. Dive in and help - and be patient and persistent.

Why not work on another API? (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27131809)

Surely with the likes of IBM, Apple, EA, Sun (shudder), Valve, ATI, Nvidia, all teaming up, they could create a cross platform API, and all appropriate documentation, programming plugins etc that will make programming for it easier than DirectX?

I mean, it's not the wildest concept ever. Clean up OpenGL, make it simpler if required. Add Open sound, add openinput, and voila!

If it's simple to code for, well documented and supports all of the latest features, and is downloadable as a library for all of the major windows' and *nix's it will make life easier for gamers, developers and other open source advocates.

It could be like java in concept, but more like directx in function. (ie it works)

Re:Why not work on another API? (5, Insightful)

Sneeka2 (782894) | more than 5 years ago | (#27131883)

Oh, and ponies please while you're at it, m'kay?

Unfortunately, this is much less of a technical issue than a business issue. Developers are entrenched in DX development, and Microsoft will try to keep it that way. That's the real problem that needs to be solved.

Re:Why not work on another API? (4, Interesting)

kripkenstein (913150) | more than 5 years ago | (#27132337)

Developers are entrenched in DX development, and Microsoft will try to keep it that way. That's the real problem that needs to be solved.

Is that still true? All the major 3D engines - Gamebryo, CryEngine, id Tech (5), Unity, etc., can output to DirectX, OpenGL and various console graphic systems. And at the low end even open source engines like Ogre and Irrlicht can output to multiple renderers.

Are there still a lot of Windows games that write raw DirectX code?

Re:Why not work on another API? (1)

robthebloke (1308483) | more than 5 years ago | (#27132849)

Are there still a lot of Windows games that write raw DirectX code?

If you're sensible, you'll wrap the API calls and then the only difference is the shading language. Really though, all the D3D C++ API lets you do is:

create/delete shader
create/delete buffer
create/delete texture
create/delete renderer state (blend/raster etc)
draw buffer
draw indexed buffer

finding the OpenGL equivalents is a relatively painless process (assuming you don't have too many vendor extension nightmares to deal with).

porting GL code to D3D is a PITA, but porting D3D to GL is (relatively speaking) trivial.

Re:Why not work on another API? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27134549)

Interesting. Could you elaborate why one way is different while the other is hard?

Re:Why not work on another API? (5, Insightful)

robthebloke (1308483) | more than 5 years ago | (#27132817)

Not really, everything has gone towards shaders, and it's trivial to port a GLSL shader to a HLSL one and vice versa.

The real problem for GL developers is that the API is lagging behind DX, and has been for a number of years. So, new features get added to D3D, and then ATI/NVidia will implement extensions for those into GL. About a year later, those may be unified into a single ext or arb extension. About 3 years later, they may find their way into the core SDK (at which point D3D would have had those in the core SDK for 3 years).

Developers aren't entrenched in D3D, they just find a much nicer API to work with.

Re:Why not work on another API? (1)

i.r.id10t (595143) | more than 5 years ago | (#27134175)

Not really - if that is how a developer prefers to work and get paid, more power to them.

What needs fixing is the to get a few higher ups to have the will to dedicate a little bit of $ to it. Those big companies mentioned above may do better by working with wine and focusing on a wrapper dedicated to DX -> OpenGL/sound/etc.

Re:Why not work on another API? (1)

RedK (112790) | more than 5 years ago | (#27132859)

OpenGL is already very clean, but more to the point, everything you've pointed out already exists. OpenGL, OpenAL and SDL can pretty much do it all right now, and except for SDL, Apple already supports everything out of the box (even in their developpement tool, Xcode).

Re:Why not work on another API? (1)

filekutter (617285) | more than 5 years ago | (#27133419)

Due to economic strait jacketing my video card upgrade was the ATI HD3850 on AGP. Thanks to ATI's refusal to release driver support for FreeBSD or Linux I'm basically stuck with fracking Winderz... I'm sure this makes Microsoft VERY happy. I feel like I'm living in a digital version of Cold War Russia.

Re:Why not work on another API? (1)

kiddygrinder (605598) | more than 5 years ago | (#27133799)

Sure they could, but it's hard and they have close to no motivation to do so.

Re:Why not work on another API? (1)

Late Adopter (1492849) | more than 5 years ago | (#27135529)

I think it's beautiful in concept, but implementation would be REALLY hard.

As a developer, I've tried using a managed-code runtime to stay truly platform agnostic (I.E. not have to produce builds for every OS under the sun). I tried to use Mono and Tao to write a current project, but little things like lack of Vorbis support made me give up and move to native code using Qt, which means I now need to compile things, deal with potential segfaults from ABI differences in Linux, the whole headache.

It would be nice if there was a higher-level game library written *natively* in .Net (not just wrappers to DLLs like Irrlicht currently offers). Maybe something like this exists in Java and someone can point me to it.

Good news, bad news. (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27131817)

The good news: increased base of support for games.

The bad news: Codeweavers makes much noise about their "supported games [codeweavers.com] ". But what they don't make explicitly clear is that these games are, for the most part, games that have been reported to work. Don't take my word for it, go and check. Out of 174 games listed on that page, one is "known not to work", 149 get an "honourable mention" (meaning they've been reported to work, but they are not supported by Codeweavers), two get a bronze, and 22 get a silver. So that's 174 games listed, and just 24 of those are supported if there are issues.

Rather disingenuous, really, to have that information tucked away in a pop-up tooltip that only appears when you hover over the medal. I wish them luck, but I can't help but feel that they need to be a little bit more open with their customers.

It also doesn't help that that list hasn't been updated since July ... eight months. Not exactly confidence inspiring, alas.

Re:Good news, bad news. (1)

OrangeCatholic (1495411) | more than 5 years ago | (#27131899)

I was surprised none of the games were Gold level. Is Silver playable? How about Honorable Mention (the vast majority) - is that a proof of concept?

Then again, the last time I checked in on Wine's progress, they were struggling with a popular 640x480 sprite-based game. It looks like they've come a long way since then.

Re:Good news, bad news. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27131917)

Because World of warcraft is a 640x480 sprite based game.

I only play this and i dont need windows for it.

Re:Good news, bad news. (1)

wugmump (6611) | more than 5 years ago | (#27132835)

Because World of warcraft is a 640x480 sprite based game.

WoW's not sprite-based, it's hardware 3d, you ignorant clod.

Re:Good news, bad news. (1)

RuBLed (995686) | more than 5 years ago | (#27131971)

I was also surprised that WoW only got a silver rating. WINE boasts that game and it does run flawlessly on it except for the openGL hardware cursor blizzard devs are too lazy to implement.

Oh and I checked their WoW page and it seems the rating was updated last 3/26/2008. It only reaffirmed my belief that WINE has progressed further than CrossOver. (I haven't tried CrossOver though, and don't see a reason for using it over WINE yet.)

Re:Good news, bad news. (3, Informative)

jparshall (1165843) | more than 5 years ago | (#27134507)

Here's the deal, guys. We're not trying to be disingenuous. But we also have finite resources, which means we have to be very careful about what we bite off in the support department. Here at the ranch, we have this funny belief that officially supporting a game means we *actually* have to care about it. That means that we have to treat our customers' questions about that game with some amount of due diligence, stoke up developers to fix bugs on it, etc. Sadly, there aren't enough support engineers on the planet to answer every 13-year old kid's questions about why this one particular sprite in Foozlewars Xtreme 10 doesn't quite render correctly on alternate Sundays under CrossOver. If we officially supported every game we ran, we'd have to put guns against our temples. And that wouldn't be good for Wine development as a whole, now would it? So, mostly, we only officially support the "big hitters" out there, the hot titles, because let's face it, for every World of Warcraft and Team Fortress 2 there's about a buhzillion other titles that *may* run, but only have about 14 passionate players. This, in turn, means that "officially supporting" Foozlewars Xtreme 10 doesn't drive all that much revenue to my bottom line, whereas supporting WoW and TF2 sure as hell *does*. And the bottom line about the bottom line is that the more ca$h there is *under* the bottom line, the faster Wine gets better. But right now, today, while we'd love to support everything, we simply don't have the resources to do it. We thank our customers profusely for giving us the resources we *do* have--your patronage has directly improved Wine. -jon parshall- COO www.codeweavers.com

Re:Good news, bad news. (1)

dkegel (904729) | more than 5 years ago | (#27135013)

OK, *you* write an implementation of win32. Without Codeweavers pushing Wine forward as they have been tirelessly doing lo these many years, Wine wouldn't be anywhere near where it is today. Also, to anyone who complains about Crossover being stale compared to Wine: it's because Crossover is like a stable version of Wine. OF COURSE it's going to lag behind a little bit. Wine 1.0 is lagging way behind Wine 1.1.16, too. Big surprise!

Misleading title (5, Insightful)

Totenglocke (1291680) | more than 5 years ago | (#27131869)

Direct X 10 coming to Linux and Mac falsely implies that MS would be making it possible for Direct X 10 to be run natively on Linux or Mac. A much more accurate title (though one that many would read and say "who cares" without clicking on the link) would be "Crossover Games to support Direct X 10.

Re:Misleading title (1)

TheLink (130905) | more than 5 years ago | (#27132383)

Not misleading to me.

Nobody in their right mind expects MS to port DX10 to Linux+Mac.

So the title means:
a) Somebody else is doing it (most likely)
b) It's a trap! What's the catch?
c) Microsoft has gone insane.

Re:Misleading title (1)

phorm (591458) | more than 5 years ago | (#27133061)

Yeah, it's too bad. While I'm not sure if it would be a foot-shooting move or not, were MS to *sell* a functional DirectX system for Linux (that didn't completely screw up the rest of my OS) I might just be tempted to buy it. Actually, it might be a good way for them to move into the FOSS market by leveraging their existing technologies.

Re:Misleading title (2, Funny)

wwphx (225607) | more than 5 years ago | (#27133375)

Rats, I was hoping for a way to make my MacBook Pro less stable. Rebooting my Axim almost daily just isn't enough for me.

Wine or CrossOver? (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27131889)

Is this for Wine or for CrossOver? Because CrossOver isn't free, is it?

Re:Wine or CrossOver? (1)

jparshall (1165843) | more than 5 years ago | (#27134587)

We return all our work to the Wine Project, so when we make it run on CrossOver, it will run on Wine. So you'll get your free DirectX 10 support, have no fear. -jon parshall- COO www.codeweavers.com

Re:Wine or CrossOver? (1)

tlhIngan (30335) | more than 5 years ago | (#27135051)

Is this for Wine or for CrossOver? Because CrossOver isn't free, is it?

You're confusing CrossOver/CodeWeavers with Cedega/Cider/TransGaming.

Transgaming took the old WINE codebase (before it went LGPL) and ran with that, releasing Cedega (run games), and Cider (porting library). They're closed source, and neither Free nor free.

CodeWeavers is basically an implementation of the Open Source business plan. They sell a user-friendly easy-to-install WINE distribution (for a price). In return, they hire people to work on WINE, and who contribute code back into WINE. Those who don't want to pay, can grab a copy of WINE from WINE repositories. Those who pay get support, ability to help fund new areas of development, and a very easy to install and configure version of WINE.

It's quite confusing because of TransGaming, but do remember that the WINE guys recommend CodeWeavers for those who want support. And purchasing CrossOver licenses is a good way to help WINE, too.

Porting to XP? (2, Informative)

RenHoek (101570) | more than 5 years ago | (#27131897)

It would be nice if this were to be ported to Windows XP and take away the only reason why I would ever consider Vista/7

Re:Porting to XP? (3, Informative)

David Gerard (12369) | more than 5 years ago | (#27132465)

Working on it! [winehq.org]

(Status: doesn't actually, er, compile as yet. And even if it did, the program launcher wouldn't work. But more people to at least solve the inability to compile would be most welcome. Current block: Cygwin's header files are on crack.)

It's all lies. (4, Insightful)

Computershack (1143409) | more than 5 years ago | (#27132069)

The last time I played a game using Crossover, it was in DX7, not 9, so I don't know how they can claim that's the case. For those still reading, it was CS:Source and Battlefield 2. Both looked truly horrific compared to playing on Windows and had poor framerates despite being run on a 9600GT.

And then there's Punkbuster support. Until they can get that working 100%, there's no point at all because you end up getting blacklisted so that money you spent buying the game is wasted as your CD Key is unusable on any PB server.

Re:It's all lies. (1)

Nursie (632944) | more than 5 years ago | (#27133139)

I played Portal on linux last year. Looked the same under Wine as it does on Windows.

Never did play counterstrike though, so I don't know what special considerations it has. If the game runs fine but the tamper-evident punkbuster system fails because you're on a different platform, well, I wouldn't be so quick to blame wine.

Re:It's all lies. (1)

VGPowerlord (621254) | more than 5 years ago | (#27135359)

As far as I know, CS:S uses Valve's Anti-Cheat (VAC) system. I've heard of people playing Team Fortress 2 under Wine, so it must work...

Re:It's all lies. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27133439)

You obviously did not read the Wine Appdb carefully and perhaps ask for a bit of help.
DX8 has been fairly stable in Wine for two years I have never played it in DX7 because DX8 has always worked. or so and if you tweak things a bit you can run in DX9 at a decent framerate.

Crossover pretty much IS Wine btw and it evolves at a rapid pace.

RTFM/AppDB people!

Re:It's all lies. (1)

kiddygrinder (605598) | more than 5 years ago | (#27133845)

I've played hl2 solo and tf2 online via wine. hl2 was a bit choppy but playable (still had the ridiculous sound stuttering i got on windows though... GRRR) and tf2 connected etc but was pretty much unplayably slow.

Re:It's all lies. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27134339)

Exactly what I was going to say. Although of the games I tried that actually worked, they looked the same in Linux. The performance was craptacular though. The games I tried can run in Windows on 6+ year-old hardware without any problems but in WINE on a high-end top-of-the-line modern workstation they ran like crap. Somewhat playable and they looked the same as Windows but the performance was too poor to use it to really play the games like you would in Windows.

New Anti Linux Weapon (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27132323)

The name tells it all
Direct Xtermination 10

My kingdom for Rogue Squadron! (2, Interesting)

Progman3K (515744) | more than 5 years ago | (#27132389)

I love the Wine project.
I have seen it mature to where it is amazingly able to reproduce Windows (bugs and all!) which is NO SMALL FEAT.
I've installed Crossover Office for someone and seen it able to run Office perfectly.

I just wish in all of that it was able to run Rogue Squadron, an old Windows 98 game because that is really the only game I miss.

But I suppose Rogue Squadron is too much of an oddball; it's old and probably relies on some undocumented jazz in Windows 98...

Re:My kingdom for Rogue Squadron! (1)

David Gerard (12369) | more than 5 years ago | (#27132473)

I assume you've reported the problems as bugs?

Of course, it's a problem getting obscure proprietary games that are difficult to obtain to work.

Re:My kingdom for Rogue Squadron! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27133175)

Play TIE Fighter [mobygames.com] instead. It's a far better game than Rogue Squadron and should run flawlessly under DOSBox. I'm sure you can find it on an abandonware site or TPB.

Re:My kingdom for Rogue Squadron! (1)

doh123 (951318) | more than 5 years ago | (#27133573)

yeah... you can actually get that game running but its not really worth it... from someone else i talked to that got it working, and the report of someone getting it working on Wines app database... they couldn't get joysticks working which would make it a real pain to dogfight with a keyboard and mouse...

Re:My kingdom for Rogue Squadron! (1)

kazade84 (1078337) | more than 5 years ago | (#27134375)

I just wish in all of that it was able to run Rogue Squadron, an old Windows 98 game because that is really the only game I miss.

But I suppose Rogue Squadron is too much of an oddball; it's old and probably relies on some undocumented jazz in Windows 98...

Heh, I used to love that game.. good times. I'll try to dig it out this weekend and see if I can hack Wine to make it work ;)

Wine is so good! (1)

mrphoton (1349555) | more than 5 years ago | (#27133415)

I have not seen anybody say this yet on the thread, but wine is soooo good. Well done the wine team!!!! Great Job!!! (Very grateful as a linux user) For anybody who has not tried it , it is truly fantastic. I have had it running office 2003 under Linux with out any problems. It is so good it could be mistaken as MS office for Linux. It also usually runs all those little odd "shareware" windows apps you downloaded for free as well. In the last year it has improved a great amount. I would have said that two-three years ago it was a play thing, but since it hit V1.0 it is a seriously useful app. The one thing, I wish it had (apart from more mopping up of unimplemented function) is a better integration in to the Linux desktop. i.e. autorunning CDs , gnome recognising exe icons and displaying them. Fantastic job wine team!!! PS along the same lines has anybody seen www.reactos.org , this is also an amazing wine based project.

Use Free Software - No Need For Wine (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27133463)

When one uses free software there is no need to use WINE for M$ libraries. Once this gets going M$ will be able to sue the WINE project and it will cease to exist. Then the people will have no choice with their non-free software addiction but to use M$ Windoze.

--
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Friends do assist M$ addicted friends in committing suicide.

Re:Use Free Software - No Need For Wine (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27133835)

Grow up.

Re:Use Free Software - No Need For Wine (1)

kiddygrinder (605598) | more than 5 years ago | (#27133865)

Unless they distribute it from a country without software patents.

This article is a non-story (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27133739)

The first steps into DX10 have already been taken in Wine. I have been following the Wine project for long enough to confidently say that even though development has greatly increased over the past two years to the point that Wine can actually be considered a real alternative to using Windows, but I'm sure that that games will only be approaching playability sometime near the next Debian release.

The story should be labeled "HOLY CRAP! Windows Games are Playable in Linux with DirectX 9!"

  I play all my Steam games and WoW, BF2, EVE... All in DX9 with various tweaks in the registry.

Re:This article is a non-story (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27134783)

I meant "but I'm sure that [DirectX 10] games will only be approaching playability sometime near the next Debian release."

Sure... (1)

Greyfox (87712) | more than 5 years ago | (#27134249)

Get the few remaining gaming studios who use OpenGL or the Unreal engine on DX 10 and then decide that porting DX11 to those platforms is not in the best interest of the company.

Either that or "accidentally" dereference null a lot more in your Linux and OSX drivers. Or both. I wouldn't put both past Microsoft either.

WinXP Port? (1)

orkybash (1013349) | more than 5 years ago | (#27135259)

Great news! Now, does Crossover run on Windows XP as well?

Figures they'd announce this NOW... (1)

Captain Spam (66120) | more than 5 years ago | (#27135267)

Aw, come on! I just spent the weekend fighting with Windows to get it to cooperate with Linux in a dual-booting scenario, with countless unpluggings and repluggings of SATA cables and partition rearrangings and no less than two Windows reinstalls, all for gaming purposes, just to see THIS?!?

Nah, seriously, this should be pretty sweet once it comes to fruition. Assuming it also brings with it further compatibility enhancements to other games (I really should open a ticket that Audiosurf seemed to stop working with a recent Steam update...). "Mad" "props" to the Crossover and WINE teams!

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