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New Form of "Mobius" Carbon Predicted

kdawson posted more than 5 years ago | from the with-a-twist dept.

Science 115

KentuckyFC writes "We've seen carbon nanotubes, buckyballs, and chickenwire. Now materials scientists have created a computer model of a Mobius strip fashioned from strips of graphene — a molecule that would have a single surface and only one edge. (Other groups have made Mobius-like organic molecules but never out of carbon sheets.) The model allows the researchers to determine the physical and chemical properties of the molecules and how these depend on the number of twists in the strip. The team says, for example, that 'Mobius carbon' should be stable to temperatures of at least 500 Kelvin (abstract). But the most exciting prediction is that strips with an odd number of half twists should have a dipole moment that would cause them to self-organize into a crystal. That implies that there's a new type of carbon made entirely of Mobius strips ready to be made by any chemists with a good supply of graphene (maybe these guys)."

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1st post (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27220325)

I wrote the first post on the Moebius strip I wrote the first post on the Moebius strip

Re:1st post (0, Redundant)

thrillseeker (518224) | more than 5 years ago | (#27220355)

and around and around you go ...

Best Bud (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27220987)

I just got some fucking awesome weed.

I take back every bad thing I've ever said about black people.

Re:1st post (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27223237)

I thought the headline said mobius cartoon at first..

V'Ger (2, Funny)

stevedmc (1065590) | more than 5 years ago | (#27220331)

V'Ger will comply, if the carbon units give the information

Insight required (4, Interesting)

w0mprat (1317953) | more than 5 years ago | (#27220377)

Do these have useful properties at all? Where's the (wild and unfounded) speculation?

paper: http://arxiv.org/abs/0903.2080 [arxiv.org]

Re:Insight required (0)

Jimmy_B (129296) | more than 5 years ago | (#27220405)

The abstract doesn't mention any applications, but there's an obvious one. This brings us a tiny bit closer to being able to manufacture carbon nanotubes, which are very useful but currently impossible to make more than a trace amount of.

Re:Insight required (4, Funny)

InsertWittyNameHere (1438813) | more than 5 years ago | (#27220653)

Not as useful as inanimate carbon rods!

Re:Insight required (3, Funny)

Laser_iCE (1125271) | more than 5 years ago | (#27220705)

All hail the INANIMATE CARBON ROD!

In Rod We Trust.

Re:Insight required (1)

TheLink (130905) | more than 5 years ago | (#27222983)

Inanimate?

What are animate carbon rods then?

Re:Insight required (2, Funny)

BobisOnlyBob (1438553) | more than 5 years ago | (#27223093)

Look between your legs.

Re:Insight required (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27220909)

That's not entirely true...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_nanotube#Synthesis

Re:Insight required (4, Informative)

TapeCutter (624760) | more than 5 years ago | (#27221647)

"[nanotubes]...currently impossible to make more than a trace amount of."

Only for large values of "trace amounts" such as this proposed 400 ton/yr plant [chemweek.com] that when completed will compete with existing plants [nanotube-suppliers.com] .

Also it maybe obvious to some but I'm having difficulty is understanding how this discovery would help in production of said nanotubes?

Re:Insight required (1)

Jimmy_B (129296) | more than 5 years ago | (#27221809)

Ok, I spoke imprecisely. The problem is that not all nanotubes are equal, and the most desireable kinds can only be produced in trace amounts, generally by sorting through large quantities of mostly the undesirable kinds. A new process which could produce very long single-walled nanotubes would be immensely valuable; a process which only produced short nanotubes would be less valuable, and that's what's currently available.

Re:Insight required (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27222689)

You're still making some sort of leap that no one else can follow.

How does a Mobius carbon structure lead to "long single walled nanotubes?" Nanotubes are used for their tensile strength, it would seem a structure that is already buckled would be less desirable.

Not to mention the current research has not actually constructed said Mobius strip carbon structure, and when they do it will almost certainly be a more difficult process.

Re:Insight required (1)

TapeCutter (624760) | more than 5 years ago | (#27223597)

I think what you are trying to say is "the search for how to make a the hypothosised material will give the tech a boost". If so, yeah, it just might. :)

Re:Insight required (5, Interesting)

elashish14 (1302231) | more than 5 years ago | (#27220919)

Graphene has some pretty interesting electronic properties. Its bandgap (the essential component of all semiconductors) can be manipulated by changing the length of the sheet; as the sheet becomes infinitely long, the bandgap approaches zero. As a result, it could hold potential in photovoltaics for light capture or LEDs for light emission where capture/emission is tunable based on the size of the particle (which is pretty easy to manipulate).

Another article popped up on Slashdot recently suggesting graphene could be used for super high-capacity memory storage: http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08%2F12%2F18%2F2332251. [slashdot.org]

From the paper they mention that active electrons have near-zero effective mass. Since electron mobility is inversely proportional to effective mass, resistivity approaches zero (in essence, we approach superconductivity). As far as twisted graphene ribbons go, the paper only mentions that there's some weird ground state orbital morphologies (triplet states and open singlet ground states) which I'm not familiar with but also have to do with interorbital transition which always has applications in light emission/absorption technologies. I believe that lasers heavily depend on triplet states to create inversion layers, but don't quote me on that.

As far as it goes anyway, even if you don't know what the properties will be, you might as well study it - you never know what's going to come out.

A bit of fact checks. (5, Informative)

feranick (858651) | more than 5 years ago | (#27221593)

Graphene has some pretty interesting electronic properties. Its bandgap (the essential component of all semiconductors)

Graphene is a semimetal. The bandgap is zero in suspended graphene. Epitaxial graphene on SiC has a small gap (0.1meV) but below Fermi level, so not very useful.

can be manipulated by changing the length of the sheet; as the sheet becomes infinitely long, the bandgap approaches zero.

Not correct. The bandgap of a narrow ribbon depends on the width (not the length) of the ribbon. Above 10nm there is no gap, below there is, regardless how long it is.

As a result, it could hold potential in photovoltaics for light capture or LEDs for light emission where capture/emission is tunable based on the size of the particle (which is pretty easy to manipulate).

Well, this is totally unrelated as electron-hole pair recombination requires a junction.

Another article popped up on Slashdot recently suggesting graphene could be used for super high-capacity memory storage: http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08%2F12%2F18%2F2332251. [slashdot.org]

From the paper they mention that active electrons have near-zero effective mass. Since electron mobility is inversely proportional to effective mass, resistivity approaches zero (in essence, we approach superconductivity).

No. mobility is finite, because you need to take into account of the so called saturation velocity. Besides, near-zero doesn't mean zero, so conceptually the two are completely different.

Re:A bit of fact checks. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27222687)

OK, maybe then we can just cut them down the middle and make wickedly small paper chains.

Re:Insight required (1)

msouth (10321) | more than 5 years ago | (#27221775)

Graphene has some pretty interesting electronic properties. Its bandgap (the essential component of all semiconductors) can be manipulated by changing the length of the sheet; as the sheet becomes infinitely long, the bandgap approaches zero

Yeah, in theory. I've actually got an infinitely long sheet and I'm about to test that, just waiting to hear back from the lab assistant I sent to the other end.

Re:Insight required (1)

Twinbee (767046) | more than 5 years ago | (#27222663)

Don't we have enough knowledge about the carbon atom so as to predict the properties of this new material? Or is it that we do have the knowledge, but lack the necessary computing power? (e.g. would 1000000000000x faster PC be able to perfectly simulate the material?)

Re:Insight required (-1, Offtopic)

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Re:Insight required (1)

eggnoglatte (1047660) | more than 5 years ago | (#27221343)

Well, they would in all likelihood be extremely tough for their size and weight. If they figure out how these can be produced in large quantities, maybe we can interleave the loops, and create nanotube "chainmall". That would be an awesome material.

How is that for "wild and unfounded speculation"?

Interleave the Loops (1)

Doc Ruby (173196) | more than 5 years ago | (#27225405)

One property of a mobius ring is that if the ribbon is cut along its length, it falls apart into two interlocked loops, each new ring passing through the hole in the middle of the other (two rings simply linked together).

If the original band that gets twisted and joined into a mobius ring had a weak "seam" down its middle, perhaps other chemical/physical means could then split it along that seam. Like perhaps an enzyme solution working on a protein seam "doped" into the middle of the graphene strips alongside the seam. That process might be a lot cheaper/easier than some other process that directly forms linked loops of graphene rings.

Perhaps a wide band could be split many times into a highly interlocked set of rings. Perhaps just pairs of rings could have interesting properties in a material of many of them. Perhaps there's more advanced topological methods that can split a mobius ring into a very long series of linked rings.

Re:Insight required (1)

Lars T. (470328) | more than 5 years ago | (#27225453)

I guess no SF writer ever came up with something like it, so there is no one to quote (badly) for speculation.

Re:Insight required (1)

HTH NE1 (675604) | more than 5 years ago | (#27226405)

Do these have useful properties at all?

Well, if they get torn down their middle, they still produce only one strip but with a full twist. Do it again and you get two strips that are linked to each other. Self-entangling rings of carbon have gotta be useful somehow.

Islam is a Pedophillic RAPIST (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27220385)

Tales from the Koran How The Profit Muhammad met his end.

We shove Jimmy Dean Homestyle Pork Sausage up The Profit Muhammad's ass. Then while the Giver strokes me off I shoot my wad in The Profit Muhammad's face after which we force The Profit Muhammad to fellate an 800 pound Chester White. Simultaneously two Hasidic rabbis open their kosher bowels unleashing torrents of gefilte shit on The Profit Muhammad's head and back while The Giver pumps The Profit Muhammad from behind. After the hog shoots its wad in The Profit Muhammad's mouth The Giver shoots his load up The Profit Muhammad's rectum. Then unexpectedly the Chester White roots out The Profit Muhammad's penis and testicles hungrily biting them off gobbling them down with full porcine fury. We bury the newly castrated The Profit Muhammad up to his nose in pig manure. Two AIDS infected Bowery whores stuff their used condoms and clotted tampon down The Profit Muhammad's throat and crack a bottle of Mad Dog 20/20 over his skull.

We then leave him for the hogs to munch on. The Profit Muhammad is swine feed and by tomorrow he will be swine manure.

GOAT KORAN

For it is written in Mine book that goats are PLEASING and HOLY in Mine eyes. I have told the Prophet Muhammad peace on him! that he should try a goat but he is an ass-infidel and pursues young Muslims. For this is pleasing in Mine eyes as well! I hereby issue a Fatwah: May the asses of the infidels be reamed by the Prophet peace on him! until they look like the goatse.cx man who is of the devil.

M______The [balder.org]
o____Prophet [balder.org]
h____Muhammad [balder.org]
a___./___o\ [balder.org]
m___I______| [balder.org]
m___I____\== [balder.org]
a___\______/ [balder.org]
d______|| [balder.org]
.______:; [balder.org]
F______:;\________________________Muslims [balder.org]
u______:;\\_______________________/______\ [balder.org]
c______:;_\\_____________________/________\ [balder.org]
k______:;__\\____________________/__o__o__\ [balder.org]
s______:;___&&___:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;|____>___/ [balder.org]
.|\\___:;8=KORAN=*O_________:;____\__\_/_/ [balder.org]
A|_\\__:;________:;_________:;_____\----/ [balder.org]
s|__\\_:;_______:;___________:;_ [balder.org]
s|___\\:;:;:;:;:;_____________:;:; [balder.org]

ISLAM

Kill all Muslims. Kill all Muhammadans. Kill all Arabs. Kill all Towel Heads. Kill all Camel Jockeys. Kill all Sand Niggers. Kill all Dune Coons. Kill all Islam. Nuke their countries to hell. Nuke them again. Death to Islam. I piss on Mecca. I spit on the Koran. I shit on The Profit Muhammad. I call on the Destruction of Mecca and Medina, the most unholy shit dumps on earth. You don't have to be a Kreskin to predict Osama bin Laden's future. And to all you Abdul The Profit Muhammad Al-Jaraazi Abdullah Mustafuh Atta Quadaphi Fuck-Head Al-Towel-Rag - Your "God" is our "Satan," have fun burning you scum. You disgusting animals, you will be a fresh farm of much needed organs for people who need livers and hearts, but I personally would rather die than receive a heart or liver from your satanic self. Hey, Ayatollah towel heads, you will be sent to heaven to meet your maker. (That would be Satan). I have no ability to stop my hatred towards you Ayatollahs, you better not peep out like a mushroom in a festering swamp lest I shoot your vile head off and harvest your organs for people who need them and cremate your vile self for crop fertilizer.

Islam Towel Song:

99 Towel Heads Up On The Wall, 99 Sheep fucking twits, You shoot one down, You kick it around, 98 Rag Heads left on the Wall.

98 Cumlicking Chickenshits on the Wall, 98 Camel sucking penis stuffers, You shoot one down, You kick it around, 97 slimy turds left on the wall.

97 Raghead Swine on the wall, 97 Shit Encrusted pukes, You shoot one down, You kick it around, 96 flea harbors left on the wall.

96 Moronic idol polishers on the wall , 96 pink skirted sphincter tasters, You shoot one down, You kick it around, 95 pillow biters left on the wall.

95 pustuled penis suckers on the wall, 95 useless festering maggots, You shoot one down, You kick it around, 94 brainwashed puddle scum left on the wall.

The Prophet Mohammad Harbinger of the Arab Plague and inventor of Arab Anal Surveyor

Re:Islam is a Pedophillic RAPIST (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27221501)

Thats the way, If we can get them all to hurry the fuck up and strap bombs to themselves and blow up, I won't have to come out of the basement to do it myself.

Man, I heard that (3, Funny)

B1oodAnge1 (1485419) | more than 5 years ago | (#27220415)

A Mobius strip is bad for your back.
I think I'll just stick with the Pole strip for now thanks.

Only one side... (4, Funny)

LaminatorX (410794) | more than 5 years ago | (#27220443)

Can you imagine a Klien Bottle made of these?

Re:Only one side... (3, Funny)

AstrumPreliator (708436) | more than 5 years ago | (#27220601)

Yes I can, but can you imagine a Real Projective Plane made of these? Neither can I =(.

Re:Only one side... (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27221273)

Can you imagine a Klien Bottle made of these?

Imagine a mobius strip made of these!

Re:Only one side... (3, Insightful)

reverseengineer (580922) | more than 5 years ago | (#27221363)

I think you could make a molecular Klein bottle, though of course you would have the same limitation as for any Klein bottle immersed in three dimensions- a self-intersection would be necessary. This would probably rule out a physically realizable Klein bottle made purely out of graphene, as a self-intersection would either involve carbon atoms bonding to 5 or 6 other carbon atoms (extraordinarily unlikely) or bonds with significant angle strain and steric hindrance if you tried to squeeze the self-intersecting tube through the lattice instead of bonding to it. If you didn't mind including some higher-valent atoms rather than just carbon, it could probably be constructed.

Re:Only one side... (4, Funny)

yo303 (558777) | more than 5 years ago | (#27222231)

A mathematician named Klein
Thought the Mobius strip was divine.
Said he, "If you glue
The edges of two
You'll get a weird bottle like mine."

Re:Only one side... (1)

mcgrew (92797) | more than 5 years ago | (#27226167)

"We're trapped like Mars flies in a Klien bottle!" - Firesign Theater

one side chemical reactions... interesting (3, Interesting)

StupidPeopleTrick (1006681) | more than 5 years ago | (#27220449)

I am wondering the chemistry applications of this. I bet you can make some very interesting compounds out of this material. A one sided molecule kind of redefines limiting agent would it not? - StupidPeopleTrick

Re:one side chemical reactions... interesting (3, Interesting)

onepoint (301486) | more than 5 years ago | (#27220645)

I am having a hard time picturing a 1 sided molecule. I would guess I can picture 2 sides ( top / bottom ) but 1 side? way more advanced than I can currently think, can someone offer an example.

Re:one side chemical reactions... interesting (3, Funny)

NemoinSpace (1118137) | more than 5 years ago | (#27220735)

Start over again with Hydrogen, now take the BLUE pill.

Re:one side chemical reactions... interesting (3, Funny)

zygotic mitosis (833691) | more than 5 years ago | (#27220949)

We are talking Mobius Carbon, not Morpheus Carbon

Re:one side chemical reactions... interesting (1)

B1oodAnge1 (1485419) | more than 5 years ago | (#27220749)

The example is in the name. Mobius [wikipedia.org]

Re:one side chemical reactions... interesting (1)

onepoint (301486) | more than 5 years ago | (#27220803)

wow, most amazing, and rather cool, I am surprised that no one used this as automotive belts for cars

Re:one side chemical reactions... interesting (1)

Antique Geekmeister (740220) | more than 5 years ago | (#27220831)

The twist would weaken the belt considerably. So would the bending back and forth. And getting the pulleys involved at the angles necessary to keep the belt from rubbing sounds like a mechanical nightmare.

Re:one side chemical reactions... interesting (0, Flamebait)

GaryOlson (737642) | more than 5 years ago | (#27220959)

The automotive unions would never allow such an item. More work would be required to install a twisted one-sided belt than a non-twisted two sided belt. The union would get less pay for a belt with fewer sides.

Re:one side chemical reactions... interesting (1)

mcvos (645701) | more than 5 years ago | (#27222201)

wow, most amazing, and rather cool, I am surprised that no one used this as automotive belts for cars

I think that has actually been done. Or maybe it was some other application. You do need a certain amount of length to keep the twist from messing up.

Re:one side chemical reactions... interesting (1)

onepoint (301486) | more than 5 years ago | (#27224697)

>>You do need a certain amount of length to keep the twist from messing up

Now that I understand the concept, the twist is easy to manage, by keeping the twist in a certain segment of the entire loop of the belt, you can avoid the belt from moving the twist ( avoid it fro moving forward or backwards )

I'm not to an engineer, but to keep the belt in place I would have roller guilds over a length ( think tiny rolling pins ), each guild slightly offset in the clockwise ( or counter clockwise ) direction until the twist was done.

Thanks to everyone that explained this stuff to me.

Onepoint

Re:one side chemical reactions... interesting (1)

kratib (793460) | more than 5 years ago | (#27220925)

Take a one-sided molecule, flip it half a turn, and you see... the same side!

Re:one side chemical reactions... interesting (3, Interesting)

MrNaz (730548) | more than 5 years ago | (#27220995)

To be honest, calling a Mobius Strip "one sided" is not strictly correct. It's just a twist that causes one side to join with the other such that all points on both sides can be traced to each other without having to traverse an edge. Clever, yes. Truly one-sided in the dimension collapsing sense? No.

Mobius Strips are great for befuddling stupid people though. If you tell the average person that you can show them a piece of paper with one side they laugh. Then you give them a Mobius Strip and a pencil, draw a dot on it and ask them to draw a line along the strip. When they meet up you can almost hear their brains grinding gears.

Taking the piss out of idiots FTW!

Re:one side chemical reactions... interesting (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27221745)

Wow, so you are able to stun "stupid" people with your "mobius" strip. An object that cannot exist in our everyday three dimensional world. Bravo sir! You show those unwashed masses how dumb and unwashed they really are. What is your next act? Pick a card, any card?

How old are you? 12?

Re:one side chemical reactions... interesting (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27221779)

Beware the man that calls other people stupid when he himself sacrifices animals to god and kisses rocks.

Re:one side chemical reactions... interesting (0, Offtopic)

MrNaz (730548) | more than 5 years ago | (#27223399)

Holy crap, it seems I have a stalker! How exciting!

Re:one side chemical reactions... interesting (1)

aldo.gs (985038) | more than 5 years ago | (#27223505)

If a MÃbius Strip isn't one-sided, could you please give an example of something that is?

Re:one side chemical reactions... interesting (2, Informative)

Gibbs-Duhem (1058152) | more than 5 years ago | (#27221385)

Graphene is a (basically) 2-D sheet that can be fairly large. Imagine the sheet the size of a blanket. Now make a mobius strip out of it.

The fact that it's "one sided" should only really come into play in that long range hybridization of the pi orbitals will interfere with each other -- presumably causing the weird effects their model predicts.

Re:one side chemical reactions... interesting (5, Informative)

reverseengineer (580922) | more than 5 years ago | (#27222109)

Locally (to the individual atoms, for example) a Mobius molecule is double-sided. Each carbon atom is fixed in a plane in graphene, though the point here is that the plane is interestingly warped. A chlorine atom could attack a carbon atom from above the plane and a bromine atom could attack from below the plane, and that would be a physically meaningful description. "Above" and "below" are of course arbitrary distinctions; let's use "a" and "b" in this post. From the perspective of Carbon #1 of the 150 carbon atoms in this molecule, the situation is nothing special; there's a bit more bond strain from the way the lattice is twisted, but it still generally behaves like a carbon atom.

What makes a Mobius molecule interesting is when you something else along its surface. For example, kinesin [wikipedia.org] is a protein that works like a set of molecular legs. Picture a regular, non-Mobius single-walled carbon nanotube, a rolled-up sheet of graphene. This tube has an exterior surface (the "a" position)and an interior surface ("b")- it is two sided. To get a kinesin molecule from the exterior surface to the interior surface or vice versa, you must either cut through the graphene lattice or walk to an edge of the cylinder and flip around. There is not a smooth, continuous path from position Carbon #1-a to #1-b for a regular nanotube.

However, for a Mobius nanostrip, that added half-twist makes the "exterior surface" continuous with the "interior surface," making a smooth path possible. If you place kinesin at Carbon #1-a and have it walk around the strip, halfway through the course (for a strip with one half-twist), the kinesin will be at Carbon #1-b (in other words, back at Carbon #1, but in a local sense, on the other side of the sheet), and its orientation will be flipped 180 degrees from the original. If the kinesin keeps going, eventually it returns to its original orientation at Carbon #1-a. If you put a kinesin molecule at both 1-a and 1-b and sent them off walking in opposite directions, they would eventually collide.

Locally, 1-a is on the opposite side of 1-b, but a kinesin molecule can smoothly and continuously walk from 1-a to 1-b (or any other point) without breaking bonds in the graphene lattice or flipping around an edge to another side. Therefore, in terms of its entire shape, a Mobius molecule is one-sided.

Re:one side chemical reactions... interesting (2, Informative)

Gibbs-Duhem (1058152) | more than 5 years ago | (#27221405)

Doubt it. Things can still react on both sides of the locally 2-sided graphene sheet.

Self-organizing carbon crystals? (1)

brian0918 (638904) | more than 5 years ago | (#27220495)

Now they just need to perfect it for water [wikipedia.org] .

Re:Self-organizing carbon crystals? (1)

Nasajin (967925) | more than 5 years ago | (#27220575)

Other groups have made Mobius-like organic molecules but never out of carbon sheets.

I perfected it for paper. Years ago. I'm sure we all have.

Bike Frames? (2, Interesting)

MarkvW (1037596) | more than 5 years ago | (#27220501)

Will this do anything for bicycle frames?

Re:Bike Frames? (5, Funny)

syousef (465911) | more than 5 years ago | (#27220533)

Will this do anything for bicycle frames?

Yes. Now you'll be able to rid a bike on Venus. You'll disintegrate in 30 seconds but the bike frame won't. Have a nice ride.

Re:Bike Frames? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27220671)

Bah, replying to undo my accidental "Overrated" mod (I meant Funny, it's funny :)

Re:Bike Frames? (0)

MichaelSmith (789609) | more than 5 years ago | (#27220721)

No, its Overrated.

Re:Bike Frames? (1)

syousef (465911) | more than 5 years ago | (#27220917)

No, its Overrated.

Highly over-rated if you have no sense of humour.

Re:Bike Frames? (1)

maxwell demon (590494) | more than 5 years ago | (#27224083)

Funny is overrated. :-)

Re:Bike Frames? (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27223965)

I, for one, cannot /wait/ for Bikerfox (NSFW) [encycloped...matica.com] to begin investing in this new Venus-Capable technology.

Re:Bike Frames? (1)

Lars T. (470328) | more than 5 years ago | (#27225685)

Surface temperature of Venus is well over 500 Kelvin.

Re:Bike Frames? (2, Funny)

rubycodez (864176) | more than 5 years ago | (#27220637)

no, but if you put a sheet of them in a clothespin with the end in the spokes, they make a neat engine sound

Re:Bike Frames? (4, Funny)

fractoid (1076465) | more than 5 years ago | (#27220693)

Of course, it'll allow manufacturers to gyp 50-year-old men who aren't quite committed enough to their mid-life crises to buy sports cars into paying an extra $2k for Mobius bike frames that shave an extra 200 grammes off the weight of a 6kg bike. These men will then lean said bikes against the railings of expensive snobby coffee shops at 7am and drink coffee while pretending that it's OK to sit around wearing brightly coloured skintight lycra when you're over 50. Sadly, they will never actually realise that the whole point of a 'cafe racer' bike was that it HAD AN ENGINE.

Also, Mobius bike frames will have the added bonus that they even more easily pretzel into a mobius strip themselves when confronted with a kerb, pot-hole or other such part of the Real World.

Re:Bike Frames? (0)

JustNilt (984644) | more than 5 years ago | (#27220791)

Now that was funny, in a slightly unsavory way. Well done.

Re:Bike Frames? (1)

Kozz (7764) | more than 5 years ago | (#27220867)

Hey. Those 50-year-old men pay my salary (indirectly) at a large international bicycle company. Don't write them off just yet. Besides, the multi-thousand dollar carbon frames are definitely for the serious road bike enthusiasts and while they're an important part of our annual sales figures, we've been selling carbon fiber frames for road bikes and mountain bikes for several years. (Want to see a *really* expensive bike? Check out some high-end carbon hardtail frames.)

But I digress.

OT: commuting bikes (1)

MichaelSmith (789609) | more than 5 years ago | (#27221825)

You might be the right person to ask this. I commute on a fairly good mountain bike. My biggest maintenance issue is with the rear gear shift. The nine speed system is must harder to keep calibrated than my old seven speed bikes. It really is a PITA.

The hydraulic disc brakes OTH are absolutely fantastic. Easily 10 times easier to maintain than cable actuated caliper brakes.

So I would love to see a hydraulic gear shift. Do you know if anybody is working on that? It would be fantastic.

Re:OT: commuting bikes (1)

mysticgoat (582871) | more than 5 years ago | (#27224765)

You might want a bike shop to check for chain stretch (should take about a minute; they'll have the right tool). Also whether the chain is the correct one for the index shifters (even if it is the "original" chain: picking the wrong chain during assembly can happen). As the number of cogs goes up, the allowable tolerances on chain dimensions get a lot more narrow. (Also have the shop evaluate wear on the chain rings at the same time they check for chain stretch: if the chain is bad, the chainwheels get chewed up quickly).

If you are thinking about a new bike, looking at the modern internal hub gear systems would be worthwhile. There are some sweet seven speed hubs out there... including some that are using a drive shaft instead of a chain. The reduction in maintenance is awesome: you not only get rid of the derailleurs but you also get a stronger rear wheel (no dishing), so fewer broken spokes, less fuss with keeping the wheel true, etc. Most of the speeds on a 27 speed bike are either redundant or are too radical to be used anyway: you've probably got less than 10 combinations that have any value to you, and a couple of the lower ones are probably slower than getting off and walking the bike up that cliff. An appropriate 7 gear hub will probably get you everything you want for an around the town bike. Plus, a bike with a drive shaft instead of a chain is a definite chick magnet.

There are also some new hub designs with continuously variable transmissions. That would be sweet-- but out of my price range for now.

Re:Bike Frames? (1)

GaryOlson (737642) | more than 5 years ago | (#27220945)

Yes, but you have to turn the frame over and see the other side to really understand.

Re:Bike Frames? (1)

mysticgoat (582871) | more than 5 years ago | (#27224059)

In theory, the joins of Moebius tubes will be twice as strong as using standard tube-and-lug fabrication, since there will be only one edge on each tube. That is, assuming that current topological problems in designing the lugs can be overcome with today's geometry.

Arcane frame building humour aside, the first likely bicycle application is prolly going to be in the tires. A Moebius tire will roll twice as far with half the wear, which would have obvious value on utility and commuting bikes.

i just got off the toilet (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27220715)

i shit out an obama

Re:i just got off the toilet (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27220741)

Have the eurofags elected a nigger yet?

--always ahead

Re:i just got off the toilet (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27221615)

Grand Dragon is goatse! Thats why you never see his face.

The obvious next step (2, Insightful)

mbenzi (410594) | more than 5 years ago | (#27220751)

When they can produce a Klein Bottle I will be impressed. Still not sure either will be be useful, but I will be impressed.

Re:The obvious next step (1)

Jecel Assumpcao Jr (5602) | more than 5 years ago | (#27220939)

Have fun:

http://www.kleinbottle.com/ [kleinbottle.com]

Re:The obvious next step (0)

myowntrueself (607117) | more than 5 years ago | (#27221275)

That was great right up until:

A Klein Bottle has zero volume, so we suggest that you do not use it as a personal flotation device.

Damn. These things are practically useless!

Also how much beer can I put into a Klein Bottle? NONE! IT has ZERO volume! :(

Re:The obvious next step (2, Informative)

B1oodAnge1 (1485419) | more than 5 years ago | (#27221857)

But... you can put about a pint into a Klein Stein. [kleinbottle.com]

Re:The obvious next step (1)

maxwell demon (590494) | more than 5 years ago | (#27224143)

I want an intersection-free Klein bottle! But then, I'd also be satisfied with a tesseract crystal.

obama is pounding you in the ass (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27220955)

and you're too dumb to know it white boy. keep paying for the faggot bitches. keep working for the mooches. worthless fucking meatbags that should be thrown into blast furnaces.

I want my monofilament whip (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27221019)

We link the mobius loops with each other and use an electric field to manipulate the dipole moment ---

Variable Sword !

Diamonds (2, Interesting)

gnieboer (1272482) | more than 5 years ago | (#27221097)

My first thought would be that:
Carbon Crystal = Diamond

So handmade custom 'Mobius Diamonds' could be the new rage

My second though was that
Carbon Nanotube Crystal != Diamond

Diamonds are carbon crystals at the atomic level, where is sounds these crystals would be at the molecular level (molecules being bonded groups of atoms)
So they probably would not share all the characteristics of diamonds. I'd be interested to see what they look like though.

IANAChemist, so I'm curious to hear from someone more qualified than I about what a nanotube crystal could be like.

Re:Diamonds (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27221243)

Maybe diamonds will be the object of the new Alchemy.

"Moebius strips are forever, Mr. Spader."

Re:Diamonds (5, Informative)

Gibbs-Duhem (1058152) | more than 5 years ago | (#27221367)

Well, it will still be made up of graphene when it comes to looking at atomic energy levels. Band gap is the primary source of light interactions, and as it will still be close to zero band gap (unless the asymmetry thrown into long range hybridization screws it up in ways I am not thinking of), and should be absorbing most photons.

So, it'll probably look the same as graphite, but would probably diffract photons with wavelenghts like 10nm due to it having a longer-range crystal structure than normal crystals (which only diffract in the X-rays). The crystals might do things like diffract in the high energy UV, assuming the UV doesn't all get absorbed by the graphite.

Every story has two sides to it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27221245)

What, are you calling my high school journalism teacher a liar?

Ants? (4, Funny)

antdude (79039) | more than 5 years ago | (#27221631)

Will these Mobius strips have ants on them? ;)

Re:Ants? (1)

Amazing Quantum Man (458715) | more than 5 years ago | (#27221959)

Self-Moderated +1, M.C. Escher

Re:Ants? (1)

maxwell demon (590494) | more than 5 years ago | (#27224201)

Carbon nano-ants?

Re:Ants? (1)

Joe Snipe (224958) | more than 5 years ago | (#27226349)

I can't believe you set up this account 9 years ago just to make this joke.

Monopole (1)

thetacron (1502343) | more than 5 years ago | (#27222069)

As they only have one side would these be able to be used to create monopoles?

Stable at 500 K? (1)

tigerknight (305542) | more than 5 years ago | (#27222087)

Oh wow, that's stable within a handful of degrees of boiling water.

I'm very curious what it may be good for, but that little factoid makes it sound and feel like buzzword useless hype.

Re:Stable at 500 K? (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27222441)

Water boils at 373K. If you call 127K a "handful of degrees" you are either an american or a retard with really big hands. 500 Kelvin = 226.85 Celsius (water boils at 100c)

Re:Stable at 500 K? (1)

donbenot (639082) | more than 5 years ago | (#27223417)

Don't confuse me. What is it in fahrenheit?

Re:Stable at 500 K? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27224303)

"If you call 127K a "handful of degrees" you are either an american..."

Are degrees not as plentiful in other countries?

 

Re:Stable at 500 K? (1)

mysticgoat (582871) | more than 5 years ago | (#27224911)

Google "500 kelvin = ? F"

Answer is: 500 kelvin = 440.33 degrees Fahrenheit

That is a little below the ignition point of books, which according to Ray Bradbury is Fahrenheit 451 [wikipedia.org]

Ain't Google wunnerful? You can ask it all kinds of questions

Re:Stable at 500 K? (1)

Lars T. (470328) | more than 5 years ago | (#27225761)

So you can't even make fire-proof books out of this material?

Hmm (4, Funny)

troon (724114) | more than 5 years ago | (#27222589)

Article seems a little ... one-sided.

I'll get my coat.

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