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Cisco Router Hack Inspires New Patching Religion

timothy posted more than 5 years ago | from the which-wire-to-cut-first? dept.

Networking 48

ancientribe writes "The dirty little secret about patching routers is that many enterprises don't bother — for fear of the fallout any changes to their Cisco router software could have on the rest of their infrastructure. But the recent discovery of a way to easily hack these devices has put pressure on organizations to change their ways and patch. This article in Dark Reading gives tips on how to patch without taking down the network, including input from Cisco's own director of IT on how Cisco itself handles router patching."

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Obama Policies Will Bankrupt USA Tsarkon Reports (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27347227)

Obama Policies Will Bankrupt USA Tsarkon Reports
(Note: We are not a GOP-sters, Republicans or affiliated with any parties, and as George Washington warned against parties We do not believe in parties and, unlike most people, We evaluate every issue on a case by case basis and do not defer to the judgments of politicians who are corrupted and untrustworthy as a group.)

Czech Prime Minister Mirek Topolanek, whose country currently holds the EU presidency, told the European Parliament that President Barack Obama's massive stimulus package and banking bailout "will undermine the stability of the global financial market." Calls Us policy a "way to hell"

Yuan Forwards Show China May Buy Fewer Treasuries, UBS Says []
Anemic Treasury auction effects felt beyond bonds []
The Sherminator Kicks Some Wall Street Ass []

China Angry That Fed Is Deliberately Destroying The Dollar []

China suggests switch from dollar as reserve currency []

What are the reserve currencies? []

Anatomy of a taxpayer giveaway to investors []

Geithner rescue package 'robbery of the American people' []

Geithner just put only the rich in Titanics lifeboats []

Geithner Plan Will Rob US Taxpayers []

A False Choice []

Bargain-hunting house buyers wearing on sellers []

Time to Take the Steering Wheel out of Geithner's Hands []

Socialising and Privatising []

Fannie, Freddie to pay out bonuses []

Fitch Raises Prime Jumbo Loan Loss Estimates Sharply []

Chinas central bank on Monday proposed replacing the US dollar as the international reserve currency with a new global system controlled by the International Monetary Fund []

- Russia too: It is necessary to work out and adopt internationally recognized standards for macroeconomic and budget policy, which are binding for the leading world economies, including the countries issuing reserve currencies - the Kremlin proposals read. []

- President Barak "The Teleprompter" Obama is deeply connected to corruption, Rahm Emanuel (Radical authoritarian Statist whose father was part of the Murderous Civilian Killing Israeli Terrorist Organization known as IRGUN), Connected to Rod Blagojevich (Rahm inherited Rod's federal-congress seat), Connected to Ayers, a man who promotes the concept that civilian collateral damage is ok in a war against freedom, Preacher Jeremiah Wright, who is himself a black-elitist who wants all the people who largely "pay the freight" to suffer, 31 million on food stamps, more blacks are in prison and on food-stamps per capita than anyone else. The problem with Wright is simply this: the facts are "racist."
- Obama: Racist, AIPAC-bootlicker, Corrupted to the bone Chicago style and a Traitor to the US Constitution and a Liar whose real "legal" name could very well be Barry Sotero and an Indonesian citizen (The US does not allow plural citizenship) (If you care, not that it matters anymore under a Lawless Authoritarian Totalitarian Regime, you can see more here at an aggregator; [] )
  - Raytheon lobbyist in Pentagon, lots lobbyists getting exemptions even though he promised not to have them.
- Goldman Sachs insider second in command at Treasury. Bumbling tax cheat idiot in "command" of Treasury with 17 positions unfilled as of late March 2009.
- Cabinet has had several nominees and appointees with multiple tax fraud issues.
- Lied about having a new degree of accountability and a SUNSHINE period of new laws, he has signed bills with little or no review at as promised.
- Appointed a second amendment violating Rich-pardoning treasonist Eric Holder as AG, the top cop of the USA, a man who helped a fugitive evade justice.
- Has not put a dime in for a single new nuclear power plant but wants to help bridges and roads to promote more driving.
- Obama, Blagojevich and Rahm Emanuel have a LOT to hide. They literally lived next to each other, Rahm had (until being Chairman Obama's Chief of staff) Blagojevich's old federal congressional seat. Blagojevich helped Chairman "The Teleprompter" Obama cheat his way to the Illinois senate by getting other candidates thrown off the ballot in Illinois. Why do you think Blagojevich was so mad? Obama DID owe him, big time. Rahm and Obama are using Blagojevich and trying to cut his head off to keep him away.
- Tony Rezko, Iraqi Arms Dealer Nahdmi Auchi, and of course Aiham Alsammarae. Chairman "The Teleprompter" Hussein Obama is so corrupted its a joke.
- Fools and "useful idiots" twist the pie charts by leaving welfare, workfare, interest on debt, social security, Medicare and Medicaid out and focusing only on non-whole "discretionary" pie charts.
2007 high level pie chart, Federal Budget, USA []
2009 Pie chart, detailed, Federal Budget, USA []
- Chairman Obama is drastically increasing spending and creating more entitlements that will make the US less competitive (especially against China, India, East Europe/Russia). This will be a huge disaster and change you can believe in will strap you and your grandkids with more debt. No taxation without representation? Obama is spending money for the next two-three generations and they can't even vote yet, or even have been born.
- An alternative to the dollar and a forex and a reserve currency came up at the last G20 meeting. The world will not take faith in Obama's liar-socialist spending and welfare state, why should the taxpayers (plebian citizen-slaves of a police state).
- The spending going on now vastly eclipses all previous spending. In fact, the massive trillion plus debts is a thing of the 80's onwards. Congress signs the checks, remember that Year after year, as egregious as the pentagon spending is, that the social spending is completely a waste of money and it is unfunded over the long term. Eisenhower built the interstates, the US could build a new power infrastructure with this money but instead is being pissed into creating more of an entitlement system that is STILL unfunded, and without massive poll-taxes and far more aggressive progressive taxes, could NEVER be funded.
- The budgeting being done today were recently reported by a non-partisan auditing commission will lead to about 10 TRILLION in new debt over the next 10 years. Obama is going to double the national debt while doing nothing to address the unfunded debt obligations of Social Security.
- Clinton appointed David Walker of the GAO, he quit, the unfunded debt obligations have rendered the USA insolvent according to accounting standards.
Taxpayers on the hook for $59 trillion []
US Public Debt Unfunded Debt Obligations []
- Most of the world population gets NOTHING from their governments, or a very bare minimum or services that benefit only the upper echelons of society. However, the liar Chairman Obama says we need his universal "state-hospital" rationed health care to be competitive. Bull. China and India give nothing, and they are the biggest threat to the American worker. By forcing healthcare and higher taxes, Americans will be less competitive.
- If you think 60% tax rates end to end (income, accounts receivable tax, building permit tax, CDL tax, cigarette tax, corporate income tax, dog license tax, federal income tax, unemployment tax, gasoline tax, hunting license tax, fishing license tax, waterfowl stamp tax, inheritance tax, inventory tax, liquor tax, luxury tax, Medicare tax, city, school and county property tax (up 33 percent last 4 years), real estate tax, social security tax, road usage tax, toll road tax, state and city sales tax, recreational vehicle tax, excise tax, state franchise tax, state unemployment tax, telephone federal excise tax, telephone federal state and local surcharge tax, telephone minimum usage surcharge tax, telephone state and local tax, utility tax, vehicle license registration tax, capital gains tax, lease severance tax, oil and gas assessment tax, misc internet sales tax and many more taxes that I can't recall at the moment) will make the US competitive, along with compulsory programs to provide everyone with health care is going to make the US competitive in the age of India and China, you are a joke.
- As the US nationalizes (read: rations healthcare) to the least common denominator of affordability without regard to efficacy, people with money will simply look into medical tourism so those with money can go to medical parks in India and get real health care. Those who have lived in Canada or in the UK can tell you "free" healthcare is NOT a panacea. If you think this, you are again, a useful idiot. The NHS in the UK has given bad blood and Hepatitis and AIDS blood to people, and Jade Goody who just died was misdiagnosed twice resulting in her death (She was all cleared twice of cervical cancer which she just died of). The NHS in the UK is not able to be sued or held accountable. Neither will Chairman Obama's rationed health care service for America.
- Sorry to bust the socialist bubble-lie, but support of these types of policies will simply lower the standard of living in the USA, particularly for the middle class. At least at the end of the Eisenhower projects the USA got roads to show for the spending, and with this new spending, the USA could have built power plants that get the USA out of the middle east, but the age of government for the sake of government is upon us, and the useful idiots line up and believe empty promises.
The pentagon (and Bechtel, Kroll, Bluewater, Halliburton, etc) could get less than half of what they get today, but that will fix nothing fundamental in terms of government spending. It is simply not enough to make a difference when compared to the Medicare, Medicaid, welfare, workfare and social security entitlements.
See: YouTube - US Government Immorality Will Lead to Bankruptcy []
- If Obama thinks its ok to lie to 300 million people about being able to "take care of them" without even being honest about what that care would look like, then being an idiot and believing in Obama is for you.
- The head of the IRS and the head of the Treasury, Geithner, is a Tax Cheat
- Lied about no lobbyists - their numbers are growing.
- The US Government already have over 50% of the budget on Medicare, Medicaid, welfare, workfare and social security. Socialists: Good job on that one, its working great. Solution to the current near-collapse-due-to-over-spending: add more unfunded entitlements!
- You Socialist-liars can break my spirit and my financial back to force me to "need" a federal government that is turning this country into a police state and turn it into a quasi-socialist lie, but I will, I must put up a fight. I have kids to educate and feed, and the stuff you sell (which is failing to various degrees everywhere else as implemented) is simply forcing a culture of failure on a once great, libertarian free country.
- I will not be complacent with your "change," and there will be a point where civil war will become an option. See how hard you can push before you get it. How much more than half can the truly productive workers in this country afford to pay. Keep pushing to find out how to start a civil war.
- The socialist-lie of a plan will not work, its not fundable, it WILL destroy the currency to fund it, and its really as simple as this: if this insanity is funded by borrowing from the US's economic and military adversaries then Obama and his socialist cabal is NOT fit to administrate society. Rome fell. Kings who mis-manged their treasuries all fell. Every example of unhinged spending leads to the same result: systemic collapse.
- Obama and his sycophantic lunatics would want to have a civil war to get Chairman Obama's way and force the socialist-lie system on my already tax paying law abiding ass. And as far as "no new taxes" for those under 250k, its a lie, the tax is called inflation, which is set to begin just about now that the Chinese wont want the USA's worthless treasuries to fund the socialist-lie fantasy (one that COMMUNIST China doesn't even try and sell to its people!)
- Chairman Obama's numbers don't add up. There is a $59 trillion dollar hole (UFDO) in social security alone. AIG $150 billion here, TARP $350 billion there. $800 billion for a highly dubious stimulus package. Another one on the way. $59 trillion hole in the balance sheet IGNORED. China saying they aren't going to buy treasuries, Clinton clamoring to find buyers now. $3.6 trillion dollar budget, potential military action on Mexico, Iran still a "terrorist state" at the behest of the AIPAC, spending up, dollar about to fall, inflation over time since Breton Woods extremely easy to document, yet, the socialist-liars question when the numbers (the Federal Government numbers) simply don't add up to the point where if the US-GOV was a company it would be insolvent.
  -How dare the taxpayers question what Chairman Obama's drastic spending increases are going to do to the purchasing power of our savings because Chairman Obama wants to recklessly spend and try to maintain and American empire AND guarantee a standard of living, and Chairman Obama doesn't even want to build a single nuclear power plant to do it? Chairman Obama must be a complete and total lunatic moron.
- Obama is either a negligent idiot or an unhinged maniac with delusional fantasies. Meanwhile, Chainman Obama's tax dodging Treasury Secretary has 17 unfilled positions, the Treasury Dept. isn't even functioning at this point.
- "General welfare" in the constitution was, according to the man who wrote it, Madison, meant to be extremely limited in scope. The federal government per the constitution doesn't even have the enumerated POWER to deal with economic messes. A lot of these "POWERS" were created while there is a crisis to dupe the public into accepting an un-constitutional authoritarian regime as the government and to usurp authority over the people.
- The USA is a constitutional republic. A democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting to eat a sheep. Also a constitutional republic isn't about using a barely-majority or a plurality to stuff your (un-fundable disastrous) crap down the disenfranchised other-half's throat.
- With Obama's authoritarian corrupted criminal (aiding and abetting a criminal in flight of prosecution, Rich case) Eric Holder in charge, we won't have our inalienable and enumerated rights to firearms much longer. For a constitutional law expert, Obama must have never read the federalist papers or he would simply hand himself as a traitor.
- The arbitrary expansion of "general welfare" is not only unconstitutional, it may very well lead to a serious conflict on the issue.
- Here is a debate on general welfare and how stuff like this came to pass, but was clearly no intended by the authors of the document of root law.
In Federalist No. 41, James Madison asked rhetorically: "For what purpose could the enumeration of particular powers be inserted, if these and all others were meant to be included in the preceding general power?" (In reference to the general welfare clause)
So strongly did the founders believe that "general welfare" wouldn't be expanded as written:
In Federalist No. 84, Alexander Hamilton indirectly confirmed Madison's point. (That the "general welfare" clause was "clearly" nota free pass for government)
Hamilton argued that a bill of rights, which many were clamoring for, would be not only unnecessary, but dangerous. Since the federal government was given only a few specific powers, there was no need to add prohibitions: it was implicitly prohibited by the listed powers. If a proposed law a relief act, for instance wasn't covered by any of these powers, it was unconstitutional.
"why declare that things shall not be done which there is no power to do? Why, for instance, should it be said, that the liberty of the press shall not be restrained when no power is given by which restrictions may be imposed?"
Hamilton goes on to argue that making Amendments (e.g., enumerating Free speech, press and assembly) and enumerating the 'right' would have the following effect:
(A bill of rights) "would furnish, to men disposed to usurp, a plausible pretence for claiming that power that is, a power to regulate the press, short of actually shutting it down. "
"With respect to the words 'general welfare,' I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers (enumerated in the Constitution) connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators." --James Madison [The US Supreme Court has found the meaning of "general welfare" in the Constitution to be much more elastic than did Mr. Madison. But as the "author of the Constitution," what does he know?]
James Madison, when asked if the "general welfare" clause was a grant of power, replied in 1792, in a letter to Henry Lee,

If not only the means but the objects are unlimited, the parchment [the Constitution] should be thrown into the fire at once.

"...We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government , and to provide new Guards for their future security. ...--The Declaration of Independence
- Wrong, monetizing failures causes more. Japan showed us this for decades. But hey, Chairman Obama thinks you can fix a problem DECADES in the making with a quick fixer-upper, he is screwed in the head.
- The complaints are with the Federal government (in general) since Breton Woods. The Federal Government and Obama's minions STILL didn't listen to David Walker, a Clinton appointee and former head of the GAO. This isn't about political parties anymore morons!
- Show me a single federal budget that was less than the previous. If this $3.6T budget goes, its never coming back barring systemic collapse.
- The United States Federal Government, The United States Federal Reserve, and the banks which were enabled to continue down reckless paths by a quasi government agency known as the Federal Reserve whose actions are not subject to congress and whose members are unelected. This situation is untenable and unconstitutional.
- Every inflationary road taken in history ends in collapse. Keynesian policies are widely regarded as no longer workable.
- Inflation is a tax: What ignorant tax and spenders don't take into account here is the relative percentages of people's wealth (both net and gross) and the costs of owning and maintaining houses, cars, standards of living.
- Inflation via deficit spending is going to make it such that you will be paying a lot more by percentage of your income to maintain a given standard of living. Obama's arguments are so poorly thought out and seek to blame "Republicans" for the mess, its really simply laughable - the needs cleanup now, not worsening.
- You can't spend your way out of a hole if the creditors (e.g. China) start telling the USA they won't buy. It is that simple. Now America starts to have to collateralize the debt with assets. The USA will be selling off chunks of American assets to back the new debt. One day, it may even be necessary to sell Alaska back to Russia because no one will take greenbacks to prop up a failing version of a modern Rome.
- Ah, here we go with the Matthew Lesko arguments. []
Interest rates were on the rise before the government stepped in with free money for everyone (the fine print of course indicate massive strings attached).
Other economies, for example, India, have the central rates set to far more reasonable/realistic rates (at the moment ~ 8+%), which is still tends to be too low, but shows that if you need someone else capital you need to pay a premium for it, and given that capital is in short supply, it would stand to reason that a premium must be charged for it.
The problem is the unrealistic growth rates of mature economies don't allow for profiting via growth projections (rather than simply earning money). So the government steps in, turns on the free money spigot, gets the interest rates for savings down in the 1-2% range while diluting the value of the whole currency in order to prop up dying companies that ran the business like a Madhoff Ponzi scheme.
- The Republicans aren't solely responsible for the crisis as Obama's minions would have you believe, congress is (no particular congress), the Executive of the US government (no particular one) and the US Federal Reserve System are all at fault.
- Fundamentally, the government is trying to fix the prices of various things to "make it all work." This pulling on the invisible hand is a fools venture. It was predicted long ago the housing collapse (and those, such as myself, in the know, wished while realizing the housing collapse coming that we were wrong for everyone's sake - but the truth is the truth) . It may be that the Austrian (von Mises) economists will ultimately be proven right.
- We are a nation of partially educated whiney grabby idiots, and we got the government that represents this. The Chinese, India and other up and coming nations will show no mercy for this arrogant abuse of our status as the world's forex reserves.
- War and asset sales will continue to be the only option for this scheme until it is corrected at the core. And to say that the government has already averted a depression by doing what they did (most of the monies injected wont be "felt" for some time), is just arrogance and stupidity. Price fixing prolonged the Great Depression. Price-fixing (or attempting to) houses will do the same, but probably worse.
- Obama's minions simply don't care if the US is bankrupted and rendered insolvent, they just want a say in how its done, presumably to "feel safe." Rather selfish.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." AND "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (Possibly Richard Jackson)

- Everyone better realize that inflation will pay a major role in funding un-fundable fantasies, wiping the savers and the middle class out. The problem is, that other countries are growing tired of making our Federal Reserve notes worth something by buying our debt as treasuries. Obama's minions talk about spending, but in order to "get what YOU want" you will sell debt to potential economic and military adversaries? Real bright. What's really sad is that despite David Walker being an authority on these issues, people refuse to even watch him and listen to what he is saying.
- On the success of Canada and its form of Socialism: A huge country like Canada with massive amounts of uranium and tar sands and natural resources and a huge land mass with a scant 30 million people is an order of magnitude less of a problem to manage than a country with 10x its population, a serious leaky southern border, backfiring aggressive foreign policy, particularly with Iran, and the US is competing with countries like India and China whose middle classes are larger than the US's entire population. The top 5 students in every Indian and Chinese primary school out numbers all the kids in primary school in the US. Canada is a idyllic island, the USA is front and center in an all out economic and political clash of ideologies.
- Cap and trade (and pollution control for solving global problems) will never work unless the top 10 countries in the world (in terms of both GDP and manufacturing capacity and population) are on board. Period end. If the world doesn't quickly move to nuclear now and fusion shortly, it is OVER possibly not if every home on the planet gets a wind vane, but that seems unlikely to happen (since its possible now).
- Keynes calls it "the paradox of thrift" and suggested that policies forcing people not to save is a "good idea." The guy wanted people spending all the time, or if he didn't, he never conveyed that to his protégés well enough for them to not do what they are doing. Right now the plebeians in the US are actually stashing cash, and everyone from Obama to the media is trying to get people to spend spend spend. The best thing for the long term is for people to prepare for the coming hell, not set out with no reserves.
- I have seen Keynes invoked to justify nearly every bad move in the past decade, and its warming up to be a potential currency collapse, the collapse of the US Treasury and Federal Reserve notes, and a collapse of the NYSE. And then they invoke Keynes to suggest the best way out of the mess is to spend out of an already near-critically debt massed black hole.
- A house is run like a town is run like a country or business is run like a state is run like a government. If there are things the government is doing that would either force your home into bankruptcy or into jail via fraud charges, then the government and banks shouldn't be operating in that fashion. A certain degree of stretchy liquidity is in order, but in terms of percent of GDP, there is no way of justifying what they US has now.
- Iceland failed at 850 percent debt to GDP. The US is at 350 and rising. It is not a good thing at all.
- What is happening to the dollar as a forex standard. []
- March 19, 2009 C-SPAN - "Let's Quit Destroying Our Dollar!" []
- HR 1207 (A bill to make the Fed more accountable and to answer questions regarding the dollar policy) []

Title: Obama sidetracked by fiscal mess, but presses on []
"Being heard above the din may prove difficult. Lawmakers are wrangling over taxing people who got big bonuses and worrying the president's budget could generate $9.3 trillion in red ink over the next decade."
- Kremlin to pitch new global currency []
Russia proposes creation of global super-reserve currency

Holy crap, even the Russians and Chinese get it. Strange days are here.

Re:Obama Policies Will Bankrupt USA Tsarkon Report (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27347263)

I'll invoke Spock on this one:

Re:Obama Policies Will Bankrupt USA Tsarkon Report (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27347355)

Couldn't you just say that Obama is controlled by the same people as Bush and then link to The Obama Deception documentary? []

Crap (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27347283)

Hope my boss doesn't hear of this and ask me how we're doing on patching the routing equipment. It's always a nervous wait as the stuff comes back up, we tend to block things at the perimeter and via ACLs.

Re:Crap (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27347599)

cisco is a real pita for upgrades - and they make you pay. I avoid them if at all possible.

Guidelines = Religion? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27347373)

I suppose that's all religions really are, a loose set of beliefs, policies, and procedures that should be followed to make the world a better place.

Re:Guidelines = Religion? (1, Troll)

rthille (8526) | more than 5 years ago | (#27347429)


Re:Guidelines = Religion? (0, Offtopic)

cromar (1103585) | more than 5 years ago | (#27347973)

Perhaps that's an attempt at humor, but you know, it's getting pretty trite either way :\

Religion has done humanity a lot of good, however true you take its various forms. Sure it's done us a lot of bad too, but such is life. Science has certainly done us a lot of harm, as well as the good we tech-minded people usually prefer to look at. Give people a break. We're all trying ot make it in the world, and "faith" does help a lot of people cope. Hell, I'll go so far as to say that religion serves most people better in making their way in the world than all the over-prescribed anti-depressants, etc. Still, liquors the best solution ;-)

Re:Guidelines = Religion? (2, Informative)

gad_zuki! (70830) | more than 5 years ago | (#27350197)

>Hell, I'll go so far as to say that religion serves most people better in making their way in the world than all the over-prescribed anti-depressants, etc.

Whenever I see a defense of religion I see an attack on psychiatry. I think people who are clinging to beliefs out of desperation and ignorance as opposed to choice and for betterment are truly threatened by the fact the therapy has become a secular "religion." You can learn to cope without belief in the invisible man in the sky. The fact that secular people are doing this and that it works is threatening their worldview, thus the jabs at SSRIs (which truly help people) and other childish attacks.

Re:Guidelines = Religion? (0, Offtopic)

cromar (1103585) | more than 5 years ago | (#27350771)

Well, you may be right in some cases, although here I have been "let down" by both religion and Prozac. Basically my point is that changing the way one thinks about one's life is a much better cure in most cases than are the common anti-depressants (which it is hard to argue aren't over-prescribed). I'm glad the medications are there for the people that need them, but I know in my case a good, swift kick in the ass would have helped me more than the Prozac my psychiatrist prescribed me. (I knew something was off when I decided that it was better for my life to skip class and sit on a park bench for hours a day - sure it made me happier, but it couldn't have lasted - I wouldn't even have been able to afford the medications if I took that path!)

We all deal in different ways; most religious people are not extremists or fundamentalists - they are able to draw strength from the ritual and community that their church provides. I truly believe it something that needs to be discussed without resorting to the facile argument of "religion bad, science good." Any thoughts? Seriously, I enjoy these discussions :-)

Re:Guidelines = Religion? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27351005)

I think you guys need to go watch religious.

Re:Guidelines = Religion? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27365971)

There are a lot of religious morons modding down anti-religion comments today.

Q: Why was baby Jesus born in a manger?
A: Because the "virgin" Mary didn't want to be away from the horse she was fucking.

more trivia: Baby jesus was born with a black eye for some odd reason.

But to be serious, the masses of religious morons are cause for concern. They propogate like vermin and even scientologists are a joke compared to the vast conspiracies of crooked Catholics, Mormons^W morons, and Jews who are in the highest levels of our legal system and government agencies.

Judges and FBI in particular are mostly Catholic. Crazy religious fuckers have no qualms about doing their god's work(clandestine elimination of "undesirables") in the name of their "values" which are based on poorly-written, plot loophole-ridden epic poems about omnipotent manic-depressives whose "love" is the envy of even the most twisted, sadistic inner-party nazi working in a room 101 of a fictional windowless ministry.

Religion == madness. Wake the fuck up, people!

Re:Guidelines = Religion? (1)

Jedi Alec (258881) | more than 5 years ago | (#27355067)

I'm glad the medications are there for the people that need them, but I know in my case a good, swift kick in the ass would have helped me more than the Prozac my psychiatrist prescribed me.

When I was a lot younger, I visited a psychologist together with my mom. The guy actually prescribed, on paper, the occasional swift kick in the ass.

Now, 15 years and a lot of experience later, I simply can't get over how right the good man was.

Re:Guidelines = Religion? (1)

blueskies (525815) | more than 5 years ago | (#27357805)

Anything that gives you happiness by providing you with fairy tales is harmful in large doses. The fact that religion doesn't match up with reality is the problem.

Science can and must change in response to reality, where as religion is just arbitrary rules.

If you think anti-depressants are over-prescribed just think how much religion is over-prescribed.

Re:Guidelines = Religion? (1)

cromar (1103585) | more than 5 years ago | (#27358051)

Anything that gives you happiness by providing you with fairy tales is harmful in large doses

You can say that, but it doesn't make it true ;-) Why exactly? How is it harmful? If you are happy, and, say volunteering and giving to charity, what is wrong with your life? Sounds to me like you would be a pretty good person. It's not the only way to be a good person or a happy person; being good and/or happy really doesn't correlate with one's understanding of abstract scientific principles...

If you think anti-depressants are over-prescribed just think how much religion is over-prescribed.

Luckily for most everyone in the developed world, we do not have to listen to our doctors or pastors, and many choose not to. The only real problem comes from being forced to believe something you don't or being forced to take psychoactive medicines.

Re:Guidelines = Religion? (1)

blueskies (525815) | more than 5 years ago | (#27358615)

You can say that, but it doesn't make it true ;-) Why exactly? How is it harmful? If you are happy, and, say volunteering and giving to charity, what is wrong with your life?

Well, for one the cancer in your testicle isn't getting cured by praying. Your pastor tells you that God will cure you and this is a test of faith. On one hand there is fairy tale and the other reality. Reality always wins in the end.

we do not have to listen to our doctors or pastors, and many choose not to.

Try, but only one of those will use psychological guilt trips and family to pressure you into thinking you don't have a choice. Only one of those will care if you get a second opinion.

Re:Guidelines = Religion? (1)

cromar (1103585) | more than 5 years ago | (#27359159)

Your pastor tells you that God will cure you and this is a test of faith.

See, you are over generalizing. Most religious people do not belong to cults that don't believe in medicine. Most religious people are not fundamentalists, extremists, or zealots.

only one of those will use psychological guilt trips and family to pressure you into thinking you don't have a choice

While that, I imagine, would happen more often in a religious setting, at least now a days, it is just untrue to say that guilt trips or worse have never been applied to people for disagreeing with their doctors - in fact, psych wards until recently have been known as frightening places - that one can't leave of one's own free will - imprisoning people and subjecting them to electro-shock, experimental drugs, and other abuses simply because it was considered "abnormal/insane" to use drugs other than alcohol or to be homosexual or to be a radical, etc., etc., etc. Hell, they used to prescribe amphetamine as a diet pill. It almost seems like you consider medicine/psychiatry infallible, which it is certainly and very obviously not. Going to the hospital is the third leading cause of death in America!

Furthermore, there's nothing wrong with your family being concerned for you; if they believe it will harm you to leave their church, why wouldn't they try to persuade you to stay? People do what they feel is Right, and that's only a problem when they start forcing that view on other people.

Reality always wins in the end.

So why not enjoy it and create Good in the world, instead of worrying about the ways other people try to enjoy life and create Good in the world :-) There is this very popular false dichotomy between science and religion, reason and faith, which just isn't there when you look at the way people live their lives and the actual roles of science and religion in society.

Re:Guidelines = Religion? (1)

blueskies (525815) | more than 5 years ago | (#27359917)

See, you are over generalizing. Most religious people do not belong to cults that don't believe in medicine. Most religious people are not fundamentalists, extremists, or zealots.

Actually, i didn't generalize at all. I gave an example. Now I'll generalize: the more fairy tales people believe in the greater the chance of it leading to harm. So just because you can tell me most people don't drown swimming where there isn't a lifeguard doesn't mean it is not dangerous swimming in the ocean without a lifeguard present. You are just talking about a difference in scale.

in fact, psych wards until recently have been known as frightening places

I think you just stumbled upon my point. Science has a feature for assimilating better representations of reality--religion does not or at least it does not have a formalized deterministic way of assimilating change. If the religion says the earth is 6000 years old--it can't change.

Look at traditional Judaism. Check out the rules of things you aren't allowed to do on their sabbath. Including driving to worship--you better be walking to Temple.

instead of worrying about the ways other people try to enjoy life

I don't care except where they are determined to stop me from doing the things i want to do. Like when Texas decides to stop teaching real science in classrooms.

Re:Guidelines = Religion? (1)

cromar (1103585) | more than 5 years ago | (#27362191)

the more fairy tales people believe in the greater the chance of it leading to harm

Yes, you said that before. It's not particularly true. Not everyone is even going to have the aptitude, let alone the need, to look at things logically beyond day-to-day concerns. Why should they? It has little bearing on the basic things that are important in day-to-day life. In other words, not everyone is a mathematician, engineer, or theorist, and we tech-minded people shouldn't try to force our methods and processes of life and perception on them, just as they should not force their methods and processes on us!

Humanity will always have leaders. Leaders have always exploited those they lead. It is no different with science. It can just as easily be bent towards corrupt goals as religion can, or for that matter sports, wealth, comfort, etc. Most religious people could give a shit about how old the Earth is. It's when their leaders have stake in that claim for political reasons that it becomes an issue. Especially when the followers of reason tell them they are stupid for having faith. I am convinced that what needs to be made clear to religious people is that, like you say, science comes up with the best explanation given the facts at hand and by testing observations. We should be making it clear to religious people that to simply brush these observations away at a whim is intellectually dishonest. We need to make it clear to them that we believe in their freedom of religion - and we truly should believe that. We need to make it clear to them that censoring science is an insult to their faith. If there faith is so weak it cannot stand to reason, it is no faith at all (in the sense that if the Earth were 6000 years old, their higher power could make millions of years of geological processes happen in 6 days by speeding up time or something, higher powers are supposed to be all powerful right?).

Check out the rules of things you aren't allowed to do on their sabbath. Including driving to worship--you better be walking to Temple.

And yet, Judaism has enriched many peoples' lives and still does. I do take your point however, with Texas and the like. In fact, it is a good example of religious people demonizing science. What we need less of is demonization - that's my point. Humanity has a lot of problems. Worries about people believing in "fairy tales" or about the "moral baselessness" of science are both counterproductive and divisive.

Re:Guidelines = Religion? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27353653)

liquors the best solution


Re:Guidelines = Religion? (1)

rthille (8526) | more than 5 years ago | (#27374417)

liquors the best solution


liquors are the best solution.

Re:Guidelines = Religion? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27348159)

Shall we apply all of the horrors that Atheists have committed to all Atheists as well?

No, I didn't think so. Try not to confuse the horrors of what people have done in the name of $foo with $foo itself.

Normally I would ignore it, but your sig shows that you're not a troll but you actually believe it.

Re:Guidelines = Religion? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27348405)

In the bible it says: 'Do unto others as you would have done to you'.

If you judge Christians by how they fare in following this rule, then no true Christian has ever committed an atrocity.

Oh, there are a lot of people who *say* they are Christians, sure, there are also a lot of people who *claim* to be atheists.

Re:Guidelines = Religion? (1)

rthille (8526) | more than 5 years ago | (#27348669)

If you judge Christians by that rule, there _are_ no "true christians", they're like "true scotsmen" []

Re:Guidelines = Religion? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27350673)

The bible is pretty clear on this:

ââoeYou shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.â This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: âoeYou shall love your neighbor as yourself.â On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.â(TM)

So it's pretty explicit that to be a Christian, you have to do the 'love your neighbor' bit.

The two cases in the Wiki article are for cases where something could be disputed. There are hundreds of things to do with Christianity where that applies, but I think loving your neighbor does preclude atrocities.

Re:Guidelines = Religion? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27356221)

...and so cue the biblical cherry-picking.

So it's pretty explicit that to be a Christian, you have to do the 'love your neighbor' bit.

No, not really. You've given one quote. There is no shortage of contradictory ones.
"This is the greatest and first commandment" doesn't cut it when your Bible explicitly instructs you to kill homosexuals.

Re:Guidelines = Religion? (2, Funny)

drsmithy (35869) | more than 5 years ago | (#27349691)

Shall we apply all of the horrors that Atheists have committed to all Atheists as well?

How many of them were done in the name of Atheism ?

Re:Guidelines = Religion? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27351685)

Shall we apply all of the horrors that Atheists have committed to all Atheists as well?

How many of them were done in the name of Atheism ?

Some of the worst ones were committed in the name of an ideal which includes atheism as one of its tenets. Do you really need them listed for you?

Re:Guidelines = Religion? (2, Insightful)

neomunk (913773) | more than 5 years ago | (#27355613)

Lessee... Yeah, I think this is appropriate...

In Soviet Russia, religion denies YOU!

Not fear, just a respect for reality (5, Insightful)

Glendale2x (210533) | more than 5 years ago | (#27347427)

Fear? What the hell? It's well known that infrastructure collapsing bugs are frequently introduced. Some trains of IOS have a horrible reputation depending on your platform. And playing in T train land? Good luck with that game of Russian roulette.

Re:Not fear, just a respect for reality (1)

Em Emalb (452530) | more than 5 years ago | (#27347543)

Parent poster nailed it.

Even the Russian judge gave him a 9.75.

If I had points, I'd mod you up. I can't count the number of times we upgraded to a newer rev to fix a bug or security flaw only to find that 3 other things broke during the process.

Upgrading code on a Cisco device is a crap-shoot sometimes.

Re:Not fear, just a respect for reality (2, Insightful)

dave562 (969951) | more than 5 years ago | (#27347755)

This has been my experience as well. Cisco hardware seems to be rock solid once you get it configured. However it often times falls into the, "If it ain't broke, don't even think about fucking touching it." mentality.

Re:Not fear, just a respect for reality (1)

MarcQuadra (129430) | more than 5 years ago | (#27348081)

Yes, but I've worked many places where they let the software fall so far behind that the admins have -absolutely- no idea what would happen if they upgraded to a recent bugfix release. It might be scary re-flashing your switches and routers on an incremental basis, but I've been shot down on major important upgrades because we had configs that haven't been altered in five years!

Re:Not fear, just a respect for reality (1)

AgentPhunk (571249) | more than 5 years ago | (#27350635)

Well that's your own fault, for not reading the release notes on the new revision, and checking to see if there are any Open Issues that affect your particular config. If you're really lazy you can open a TAC case and have one of their front line guys do it for you.

I've been running 12.4T since 12.4.2T2, on over 100 routers, with complex BGP, DMVPN, and QoS configs, with no problem. No problem because I made sure I wasn't going to get hit with a known bug, but yes, I'll agree that there are usually quite a few known bugs in any given release.

Re:Not fear, just a respect for reality (1)

Em Emalb (452530) | more than 5 years ago | (#27356683)

Wow, arrogant much?

I'm talking about basically having no recourse but upgrade to a different rev to fix an exiting issue that is caused by a software bug that breaks a couple other things. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

A lot of the time you're forced to upgrade because the bug you're dealing with is affecting a mission critical app (VOIP, for example, PSTN calls randomly failing is a good one) and the resolution breaks something else.

This is my job. I've been doing it for years. To say I'm not reading the release notes is not only missing the point but also wrong.

Assorted routers or not assorted routers? (1)

Applekid (993327) | more than 5 years ago | (#27347457)


Researcher Felix "FX" Lindner's research earlier this year demonstrated that multiple versions of routers can be attacked -- specifically, Cisco's PowerPC routers -- shooting down the assumption that hacking routers requires separate exploits for each type of router.

Oh, wow, so, it doesn't matter that your infrastructure has a mish-mash of routers because they can easily attack them all in the same way? FFFFFFUUUUUUU---

The idea that the variability of router platforms would defend you from an attacker is false. All versions have something in common [in this research], and this is not just in theory, but FX demonstrated it and used it to exploit all [PowerPC IOS] versions."

Er, wait, so, you "demonstrated" by testing it all on one specific line of routers? How is that any kind of proof?

I smell Cisco astroturfing to make having to patch routers sound like it's important for everyone's routers and not just theirs.

Re:Assorted routers or not assorted routers? (1)

Effugas (2378) | more than 5 years ago | (#27354631)

What FX has shown is that each hardware line tends to have enough in common that exploits can be built independent of the individual version of software deployed on that piece of hardware. That's a decrease in variability of at least a couple orders of magnitude.

I really don't get this (1)

Profane MuthaFucka (574406) | more than 5 years ago | (#27348117)

What is a patching religion? And why are Cisco people susceptible to such idiocy? Can't they leave such thinking to the Republicans?

Can anyone help me fan this little fire I've started?

Re:I really don't get this (1)

doas777 (1138627) | more than 5 years ago | (#27364615)

well, patching is generally accepted as rule 2 in running a secure system.
rule 1 is "Test Test Test".
I often find that people who have big troubles with rule 2, have the same troubles with rule 1.

SLA? (5, Insightful)

doas777 (1138627) | more than 5 years ago | (#27348191)

if they want me to patch my router, then they should give me the patch for free, don't you think?

Re:SLA? (3, Informative)

mikkelm (1000451) | more than 5 years ago | (#27349149)

They do. You'll able to use every minor release in your release train free of charge, and they'll be developed for your platform until the product reaches end of life. You don't pay for patches.

Re:SLA? - They do. (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27349485)

If there is a security vulnerability in your IOS, call Cisco, say you have no support contract and they will give you the latest patch at your release level for nothing (or an upgraded release if there is no patch at your level).

Re:SLA? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27352453)

I spent 250K on Cisco equipment 10 years ago. I was surprised to find out that I didn't qualify for free patches, even the security ones. Then when I get access to the patches I find out what an incredible nightmare it is to patch their stuff. We recently constructed and moved into a new building. I made sure we didn't use a single Cisco product (and things work great).

Re:SLA? (1)

gth-au (1300077) | more than 5 years ago | (#27353389)

You're right, downloading patches from Cisco is such a pain with their registration requirements. Better to Google the filename and grab the IOS (the version you think you need) from whatever 3rd party has stuck it on their ad-supported page, right? After all, nobody would put malware in a router update, surely...

getting the patches is the problem (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27348313)

The dirty little secret about patching routers is that you can't just download the damned things. Why do I need to be certified and SLA'ed 3 ways round, or go to some third party, just to get it ?

up yours Cisco !

Re:getting the patches is the problem (2, Informative)

amorsen (7485) | more than 5 years ago | (#27349575)

If you manage to get hold of the actual Cisco vulnerability statement, it contains information about how to request a patched version even if you don't have a service contract.

Not unreasonable... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27348315)

Sounds a lot like Cisco does (and would like you to do) is have a lab with duplicate hardware to test with and roll out system by system.

I'm not a proper sysadmin, but this seems completely reasonable to me, until you look at what their hardware costs. But then I work for a not-for-profit.

after reading Cisco's take (1)

freemti (1502231) | more than 5 years ago | (#27352147)

test it in the lab eh? Yeah right.... Gone are the days when even largish companies have a lab that even looks vaguely like what they actually have running or the staff to run and maintain one. At best its some creaking old collection of cast off routers & switches
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