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Linux Needs Critics

CmdrTaco posted more than 5 years ago | from the that-which-does-not-kill-us dept.

Linux 1127

An anonymous reader writes "Keir Thomas berates the fact that the world of Linux almost entirely lacks critics. In fact, he says, Linux people tend to see genuine critical evaluation as a bad thing. FTA: 'The problem with this anti-criticism approach is that it's damning Linux to an eternity of navel gazing. Nothing can ever get any better. The best hope we have are the instances where a few bright sparks, with their heads screwed on the right way, get together and make something cool (as happened with, say, Firefox back in the day). But that's rare and can't be relied upon.'"

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1127 comments

Nonsense (4, Insightful)

Erich (151) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429623)

Linux has plenty of critics. Developers are critical of their own code. Just look through the lkml or read the code, there are plenty of places where there is constructive criticism about how something is done.

Let me be the first critic (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27429655)

Linux has driver issues!!

Re:Let me be the first critic (0, Offtopic)

bistromath007 (1253428) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429709)

Replace "driver" with "daddy" and you'll discover that the average nerd's approach to romance is identical to their relationship with Linux. :|

Linux needs USERS !! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27429731)

Duh!!

And this board is too fucking slow !!

Re:Linux needs USERS !! (-1, Offtopic)

poetmatt (793785) | more than 5 years ago | (#27430065)

motherboard or message board? Slashdot is neither.

Re:Let me be the first critic (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27430009)

No it doesn't. Not at all. Suppose you buy a new printer and find it doesn't work with linux. All you have to do is a post a comment on one of the 100,000 different linux discussion sites asking if someone can't produce a driver for it. And then, magically, just a few weeks later, someone with a name like Songeyong Jooeypop will post one for you to download, and it will even come with excellent install instructions like, "Please to be installing driver software for the printing! Always be remembering to install in correct dir or else to be compiling with kernel property. Happiness first! If problems are having to be had, be writing to me at fnordboi@flqoozlepop.xq"

Uh oh. Did I just criticise linux?

Re:Nonsense (1)

The_Mr_Flibble (738358) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429733)

And if you don't like something you can change it.

Re:Nonsense (2, Interesting)

plague3106 (71849) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429877)

Only if you happen to be a programmer and have no life.

Re:Nonsense (5, Funny)

The_Mr_Flibble (738358) | more than 5 years ago | (#27430133)

Only if you happen to be a programmer and have no life.

I'm on slashdot posting about the fact that if you don't like linux you can change it. it's a given isn't it ?

Re:Nonsense (4, Insightful)

TheWanderingHermit (513872) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429969)

That assumes that you either know the language the kernel or a program is written in, AND have the time to investigate and make the change. Often even professional coders don't have the time to make all the changes to FOSS programs they'd like.

I know it sounds like a good argument for FOSS, but in reality, only a small, and I mean very small, percentage of users, actually have the resources to make changes in a FOSS program.

That's like saying, "This is great for 3% of all users out there so EVERYONE should use it because of that." It totally ignores the needs of 97% of all users.

No wonder there's a problem with criticism for Linux and FOSS: those involved are too busy being right and making statements that make sense to themselves to take time to listen to what most users can actually use or would need.

Re:Nonsense (1, Insightful)

SerpentMage (13390) | more than 5 years ago | (#27430083)

In a post a bit higher I essentially said this. Linux is a great hacker OS, but an end user is just left hanging.

I know many folks who are shifting for their desktop needs to OSX because they are tired of the "crap" that they need to deal with.

On the server side it is a completely different issue. But for getting things done, like development, reading email, writing documents, scanning documents, VOIP, Linux sucks!

And on OSX well it just WORKS...

Re:Nonsense (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27429737)

The article's author's evidence of a lack of Linux critics is negative responses to one of his blog posts criticizing Ubuntu and Firefox. In that post he criticizes Firefox for becoming feature-bloated and criticizes Ubuntu for not having enough new features. He's making his own drama.

Re:Nonsense (1)

Chrisq (894406) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429971)

In that post he criticizes Firefox for becoming feature-bloated and criticizes Ubuntu for not having enough new features.

Smart. If they both take note he can have a follow-up blog about how Ubuntu is feature-bloated and Firefox does not have enough new features.

Re:Nonsense (1)

postbigbang (761081) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429993)

While Linux users are certainly the biggest critics, there are plenty of Linux critics. As the parent suggests, this may be a case of drama creation to benefit the hit count of the OP.

What galls me is Red Hat's CEO essentially giving up on desktop Linux, believing that cloud connectivity will eventually suffice. I don't think he gets it. Nonetheless, as in Windows or Mac OS-- fire away. No prisoners when it comes to salient criticisms-- and the Darwinian coder bunch that do kernel contribs are certainly among the harshest bunch I've ever encountered.

Re:Nonsense (3, Insightful)

Clipless (1432977) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429787)

Has the author of TFA looked at any linux websites or even /.? Linux has a wonderful bug list, most Linux forums are full of complaints and problems that need to be solved and our own /. community that has its fair share articles, and subsequent comments, registering the complaints and comparisons of various aspects of linux and its distributions.

Re:Nonsense (3, Insightful)

joelmax (1445613) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429863)

Yes, they are critical of their own code, but that isn't the same thing. Everybody will see their own creation through some form of rose coloured glasses. For a critic to truely be good and viable, they need to not only understand what and how it is working, but what and how it is broken, not from the first person, but from a third person perspective. That 3rd person perspective helps give validity to arguments and is more likely to point out things that developers don't catch. There is such thing as being too close to the code so to speak.

Now, I am not saying that coders are not the best critics, but in a lot of cases, this does not give credibility to the app itself for a business looking at a product.

Re:Nonsense (5, Interesting)

Ami Ganguli (921) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429871)

Indeed. What a strange article.

I would even go so far as to say that Linux (and the Free Software ecosystem that surrounds it) has a lot more critics than closed software - or at least more effective critics.

Large software companies pay PR departments to generate positive coverage. Most Open Source projects have no PR effort behind them at all. So criticism of the software is less likely to be drowned out by astroturf.

Re:Nonsense (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27430117)

Indeed. What a strange article.

I would even go so far as to say that Linux (and the Free Software ecosystem that surrounds it) has a lot more critics than closed software - or at least more effective critics.

Yeah, that's the spirit:

"We have more than enough critics. Enough with criticism. What a "strange" article."

Re:Nonsense (5, Insightful)

TheWanderingHermit (513872) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429883)

Developers may be critical of their own code, but they see it from their view, not from the view of the users. I've seen many cases where bug reports were "written off" or were closed and the developers' responses were either, "We're not going to implement that because it's too much work," (even when the bug or issue or request has a lot of votes) or some other excuse that indicates they're trying to just write it off, but don't see how important it is to others.

It's the case that those inside looking out are talking about how great they are, but often they refuse to listen to those outside looking in. It's the same issue with Windows. Linuxers wonder how people can think Windows is so good, but it's because people in that world ignore external criticism. Linux and FOSS developers are they same way, they just pretend they aren't: They listen to the criticisms that match their views and ignore or write off those they don't want to hear.

Re:Nonsense (1)

space_jake (687452) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429887)

Sometimes developers are less critical of changes that they know require more work. They can never truly know what a less technical end-user will want.

Well... duh (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27430011)

Of course Teh Lunix has no critics. Slashdot is an excellent example of why that is- anything said which is critical of Teh Lunix gets modded down, where nobody will ever see it. Consistant criticism of Teh Lunix will eventually get your account soft-banned, where you can only post like once or twice a day (with an -1 rating).

Linux has plenty of critics. Developers are critical of their own code. Just look through the lkml or read the code, there are plenty of places where there is constructive criticism about how something is done.

That falls into the category of "navel gazing" which Teh Lunis was talking about.

I gotta hand it to Teh Lunis, he's may be the only one in the Lunix community who isn't a hardcore zealot. If an average poster had said what Teh Lunis said, the results (and flames) would be unsurprising.

Re:Nonsense (1, Redundant)

rednip (186217) | more than 5 years ago | (#27430039)

Linux has plenty of critics...Just look through the lkml or read the code

No, that's not 'criticism', well not what passes as that for most people. For many it's always loud and abrasive, public cries for attention, and a hard-headed "hold this line" attitude. Sane, logical, thoughtful discussions, while being the most productive, just don't get noticed.

Re:Nonsense (5, Insightful)

SerpentMage (13390) | more than 5 years ago | (#27430049)

The problem with Linux is that yes there are critics... BUT the Linux community dismisses them as twits who don't understand or appreciate Linux...

If the Linux community were to take end users seriously and start solving their problems then maybe Linux would move on...

Here is a simple question, why on earth when I have multiple applications that need the sound card have problems sharing the sound card? Who on freaken earth thought that one out...

Re:Nonsense (2, Insightful)

mozzis (231162) | more than 5 years ago | (#27430089)

This is so ridiculous as to be beyond laughable. Developers *can* be critical of their own code, but no serious software company depends on developer testing as the end-all (or even the most significant art) of their Q&A process. There is just no objectivity.

They are in there (4, Insightful)

suso (153703) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429631)

The critics in open source world are the young ones that get a big head one day and call your project stupid because it uses language X instead of their favorite language. Then they fork the code, write their own crappy software, get some distribution to decide to use it and then the original project gets dumped one day.

shut up (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27429633)

it's free, why are you complaining?

Re:shut up (2, Insightful)

suso (153703) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429669)

Don't you know, everything is free noadays. Or it should be. If I can't get services, software and media for free or via illegal methods, then you are dumb. *sarc*

The Toaster as penultimate technology (2, Insightful)

gestalt_n_pepper (991155) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429773)

Yes, it's free. Nobody *has* to listen to you and that's the problem in a nutshell. Nobody gives a rat's patoot about the fact that the wondrous Ubuntu can't see my USB drives and half of my other devices. Since this will never be fixed and I don't have time or inclination to dick with solving the problem, it's back to Windows. Sorry guys. That's reality. It either works like a toaster or it's crap. No OS does this now. Windows comes closer. The Mac OS is closest to true toasterhood yet, but too expensive.

Re:The Toaster as penultimate technology (1)

Haiyadragon (770036) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429899)

Sorry guys.

Who are you apologizing to?
Anyway, the Mac thing is nonsense. I see Macs fail at trivial tasks every day.

Re:shut up (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27429831)

it's free, why are you complaining?

This should be the OSS equivalent of Godwins Law. As soon as you trot out the "it's free, why are you complaining?" argument - you lose!

I criticized Linux.... (4, Funny)

Ynot_82 (1023749) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429647)

...and all I got was this lousy mod rating

Re:I criticized Linux.... (0, Flamebait)

Ynot_82 (1023749) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429813)

No, I tell a lie.
I have nothing but the most rudimentary knowledge of anything kernel level
Any criticisms I have don't mean squat, and I should probably leave it up to people on the lkml to discuss properly

(which one you going to mod up now?)

Re:I criticized Linux.... (1)

Thanshin (1188877) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429885)

I'm sure you float like a log. Or a duck.

We should try.

Does anyone have a duck?

Re:I criticized Linux.... (3, Insightful)

RobBebop (947356) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429937)

What about BugTracker websites or discussion forums that expose software warts to the general public? Doesn't posting to these count as criticizing? Sure, the mass media doesn't track these issues because they are generally not very exciting, but I'd think the unexciting bug reports are more a symptom that these software projects are either not extensively used (which I know is false for FireFox, Ubuntu, OpenOffice, and Apache) or that they're stable "done" products. Responding to the accusaction that "things can never get better", I'd agree. The products I just named are damned good. Let them stagnate. I like the way current versions work.

And if you'd like criticism... I'll give you some. Linux has piss-poor support for high-definition video editing software. The last time I investigated this was 6 months ago and no suitable tools were available that could run on my 3 year old laptop. Now, I know this might be symptomatic of my lack of processing power... but the same computer loaded with Windows was able to run a video editing product from Ulead to do high definition video editing in 2006, so I'd hope that sometime soon this capability becomes available for Linux.

Thank you.

Agreed. (5, Insightful)

SatanicPuppy (611928) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429657)

I have to admit, the fanbois are making me homicidal.

I LOVE Linux. I love plain old Unix. I love the command line, and the cryptic commands, and man pages, and lynx and apt/yum. I like X windows and MC. I love building from source. The whole environment is clean, somehow. It's got a sort of serenity for me that I don't see very often in my job.

And yet...It's just a tool. It's a good tool. It's my favorite tool. But it's just a tool. There is room for improvement, and, like any tool, there are places where it's not useful.

The thing that drives me nuts is the pure unthinking zealotry. I got started on old proprietary unix, and while linux has more zest and more wild features, there are things that were worthwhile in the old systems. But if you say that, then you get slapped down as a heretic.

Everything benefits from criticism, so in that sense, he's right, but really Linux has plenty of critics. Install linux for someone who is used to something else, and you'll get plenty of criticisms. What I think Linux needs is the same thing I think Mac needs and Windows needs: the people on the inside need to start listening to people who aren't already sold on their product. We have just as many fanbois as the Mac and Windows people, and we've got some of that persecution complex that makes the fanbois extra loathesome.

Just calm down, take a breath, go use something different for a while. Get some perspective. The real zealots make it harder for me to sell *nix solutions to the phbs because they're coming to expect a bias.

Re:Agreed. (2)

Smidge207 (1278042) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429775)

It think the biggest problem I have with Linux fanatical loonies like DiabolicalDog is that we cannot rely on visual effects to show how way better we look than Windows. That proves nothing.

Youtube with all those videos of complies are driving me to bust a nut. Let show more videos of other great stuff using Linux. There is no need to prove we make real good use of visual effects than Windows, that has already been proven. Let focus on other stuff as well.

=Smidge=

Re:Agreed. (1)

SatanicPuppy (611928) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429959)

Agreed. You see tons and tons of screenshots, and yea the "user experience" videos on youtube and ubuntu fan sites. What does that have to do with anything? If all you were selling was something that looked cool, those might be useful.

Re:Agreed. (5, Funny)

Em Emalb (452530) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429809)

HERETIC!

Oh I'm sorry, this is abuse. Arguments is in 12a.

Re:Agreed. (1)

notarockstar1979 (1521239) | more than 5 years ago | (#27430045)

The fanbois come in two flavors: the biased idiots claiming Linus is the savior of mankind and that anything less is heresy, and what I like to call the anti-fanboi. The anti-fanboi isn't so much a critic as a hateful moron spewing forth the exact opposite of the fanboi. You'll see them say things like "I tried insert distro of choice here) and it couldn't do anything! I don't see what it is you nerds get out of this! You're just stroking your own egos by using it".

The problem isn't that there are no critics as it is the loudmouths on both sides of the spectrum drowning out the quieter middle voices. The last time I spent any time on a *nix forum was shortly after Ubuntu came out (I was using Linux long before that, but I always like to try out new distros...Slackware is still my one true love). I was trying to offer helpful suggestions, but the comments and replies ranged from idiotic fanboism about how if it were necessary someone would create it to people "agreeing" with how Ubuntu couldn't do ANTYHINGOMGBBQ!!!1!1!!ELEVENTYONE!!! The constructive criticism was lost amid a thousand voices screaming about how great or awful it is without any real content.

Re:Agreed. (1)

Seth Kriticos (1227934) | more than 5 years ago | (#27430121)

I agree too. Linux is a great system, but it has it's weaknesses too. The reason I like it that much is that it seems to be the least broken system, but there is plenty of improvement possibility.

Also I'm mostly using it for desktop and simple server functions. There are places where it is not the right tool, like for example nuclear plants and things that need a high reliability are better fit with things like QNX. For system design educational purposes I would suggest plan 9.

Anyway, I would like to see more competition in the OS segment. I would like to have a choice of more than just one or two (Linux/BSD/Mac) mature systems and I also like to see the current ones getting better with time. And it's happening, just a bit slowly.

Hm, did I left something out?

Heretic! (1, Funny)

krou (1027572) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429659)

Burn him!

No it doesn't! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27429673)

Keir Thomas has just proved that Linux does have critics.

Re:No it doesn't! (2, Informative)

IndustrialComplex (975015) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429761)

Keir Thomas has just proved that Linux does have critics.

That was a critique of the community and development process, not the product itself.

Yes it does...BUT: (2, Insightful)

Smidge207 (1278042) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429675)

If we were to criticize Linux, we would also have to criticize other OS vendors. I've been using Linux operating systems for other reasons than regular users do, due to my professional work. At work I have plenty of UNIX-es, so it's natural I have a Linux boxes at home. However I will never take Ubuntu as the first choice.

I have used Windows XP for many years too, but that's history. Of course, I may complain about Linux glitches, but look around. Look at all the software that's produced on any OS, Windows, Macs, etc. Have you not noticed that the software evolution is heading in the wrong direction? Is it only Linux that is responsible? After all, Linux is just an operating software, where as all the other software is an add-on you use.

What do you want to criticize, the operating system, or the software that comes with it?

If you would like to criticize Linuxes, you would have to first install at least 10 distros and compare them. Ubuntu for me is again not the choice. Look around, how many choices you have with Linuxes and how many with other operating systems?

My choice is Sabayon-Gentoo. One good reason â" it's easy to install and has ALL the software I need. Price is not the issue, the fact that I can have an installation for free is not the main reason I use Linuxes.

Sander85 is right and I agree with him. You would like to criticize, but you have not mentioned how much time you spent communicating problems and helping programmers solve them.

On the other hand, try and contact Microsoft saying their OS system lacks this or that, that we are threatened everyday with viruses, malware, etc, that we have to purchase tons of additional software to get the full functionality Windows doesn't have out of the box?

So far Linux distributions have evolved enormously in a way you could have hardly imagined a year ago. It makes competition tougher.

=Smidge=

Re:Yes it does...BUT: (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27429923)

This is a c/p from the comments section of TFA:

richlion says:
Thu Apr 02 04:51:40 PDT 2009

If we were to criticize Linux, we would also have to criticize other OS vendors. Iâ(TM)ve been using Linux operating systems for other reasons than regular users do, due to my professional work. At work I have plenty of UNIX-es, so itâ(TM)s natural I have a Linux boxes at home. However I will never take Ubuntu as the first choice.

I have used Windows XP for many years too, but thatâ(TM)s history. Of course, I may complain about Linux glitches, but look around. Look at all the software thatâ(TM)s produced on any OS, Windows, Macs, etc. Have you not noticed that the software evolution is heading in the wrong direction? Is it only Linux that is responsible? After all, Linux is just an operating software, where as all the other software is an add-on you use.

What do you want to criticize, the operating system, or the software that comes with it?

If you would like to criticize Linuxes, you would have to first install at least 10 distros and compare them. Ubuntu for me is again not the choice. Look around, how many choices you have with Linuxes and how many with other operating systems?

My choice is Sabayon-Gentoo. One good reason â" itâ(TM)s easy to install and has ALL the software I need. Price is not the issue, the fact that I can have an installation for free is not the main reason I use Linuxes.

Sander85 is right and I agree with him. You would like to criticize, but you have not mentioned how much time you spent communicating problems and helping programmers solve them.

On the other hand, try and contact Microsoft saying their OS system lacks âoethis or thatâ, that we are threatened everyday with viruses, malware, etc, that we have to purchase tons of additional software to get the full functionality Windows doesnâ(TM)t have out of the box?

So far Linux distributions have evolved enormously in a way you could have hardly imagined a year ago. It makes competition tougher.

Regards,

Richard

So, are you Rich Lion or just ripping him off?

Re:Yes it does...BUT: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27429963)

I think smidge is "lyin' to get rich" with ripped-off karma...look at his "posts" they are all ripped off from amazon or googled or just fag troll postings...

I hear lots of negative criticism about Linux. (3, Interesting)

pecosdave (536896) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429677)

Mostly from uneducated haters, but there's no lack of it.

Oh, and in lots of cases, it IS ready for the desktop. Either in a managed environment with a guru at the top, for those who know what they're doing, and for locked down spoon fed distros.

If that's true.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27429687)

...then why was this article written?

Critics (5, Funny)

cgfsd (1238866) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429705)

On the positive side, there are more Linux critics than Mac critics.

If you are critical of Linux, you are just berated.

If you are critical of Mac, you are mobbed, beaten, lynched and never allowed to buy a cappuccino again.

Er (4, Interesting)

acomj (20611) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429911)

I don't think you've heard some of the non fanboi mac users rant..

They are brutal

Especially about the OS X finder which while working isn't where it needs to be yet.

Don't get them started on the Dock.

Re:Er (2, Informative)

Gizzmonic (412910) | more than 5 years ago | (#27430099)

Hear, hear! The Dock is an abysmal waste of space that hasn't improved much in 7+ years, and the Finder is slow and doesn't handle network connections very well. That's FACT! And I'm an everyday Mac user (by choice).

Hit the nail on the head (2, Insightful)

BackwardHatClub (763903) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429707)

As a non Linux guy, I've been interested in installing Linux several times but the community has turned me off. If you go on a forum or something similar and suggest a feature you're often told that you're doing it wrong. That's probably true, but it's poor attitude for growing a client base. Me: I'd like mirrors on my car to assist in backing up. Linux community: The best way to back up is to turn around and look out your rear window. While technically correct, how many people back up using their mirrors?

Re:Hit the nail on the head (2, Insightful)

MrMr (219533) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429845)

Exactly my experience as well; whenever I go to a forum about something I admittedly know fuck all to present my list of chores for the regulars I get that same poor attitude.
And I suggest you use PDC.

Re:Hit the nail on the head (3, Informative)

Zelig (73519) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429865)

You're conflating a 'customer-support' interaction with the criticism role. I won't dispute that lots of linuxy and open-sourcey communities are not safe for tenderfeet: you're absolutely right.

But it's a different topic.

Re:Hit the nail on the head (3, Interesting)

OrangeTide (124937) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429873)

Well none of that is (completely) true. It's (mostly) just your perception. Also your analogy is nearly meaningless, speak plainly.

I think the biggest flaw of Linux for a Windows user is that it's different. Of course that flaw is the same for an old Unix user too, Linux is just different enough from Unix to be a little confusing too.

I am not sure what "community" you are referring to, there are several of them that operate independently and have little interaction with one another. I tend to favor LKML, but that's a highly technical community. There is usually a LUG in most areas, if you want a generally far more laid back community that might actually help a new person out.

Most people on the internet would rather insult you and beat you over the head when you ask questions that have been answered before, that's not something that is unique to the Linux crowd. If you wish to use the Internet to help you out with learning Linux (or with learning just about anything else), you'll either have to tolerate the bullshit people do or find some other resources.

Re:Hit the nail on the head (2, Insightful)

Chibi Merrow (226057) | more than 5 years ago | (#27430015)

Well none of that is (completely) true. It's (mostly) just your perception.

Personally I think the GP was spot on based on plenty of my prior experiences...

"Why can't I make an icon on my desktop like I have for the last thirteen years?"

"Desktops are not places for icons! You are a BAD person for wanting to clutter up your workspace with them! Can't you see how much BETTER this new way is? WHY DON'T YOU APPRECIATE OUR WORK TO FREE YOU FROM THE DESKTOP PARADIGM!?!?!?!?!"

That pretty much sums up my experiences with constructive criticism and OSS projects...

Like Dividing By Zero (5, Insightful)

eldavojohn (898314) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429711)

Linux Needs Critics

Oh how true that is. I myself love to criticize things (I'm reading Slashdot, after all). But why don't I constructively criticize Linux?

I think a lot of has to do with what every argument or analysis starts with: base assumptions. So let's start with comparing Linux to the leading commercial operating systems and the most important thing to consumers--price. And the guy mentions this in his blog. But we can't get to questions like "Is feature X really worth Y dollars to me?" Because Linux does not cost money to install. It's like dividing by zero. It makes criticism of a missing component difficult because it doesn't cost me anything! How can I criticize it?! You will see people like Steve Ballmer have to dig and dig into imaginary costs of retraining, supporting and maintaining Linux to give it a "hidden cost" so that Windows can even begin to contend with Linux in price (you'll notice these concerns were suspiciously left out of advertisements when discussing the switch from XP to Vista).

Another important aspect of operating systems (at least to me) is security. And, being a pedantic ass, I cannot even comment on the security of the Microsoft operating system because I have no idea what they are doing. I can get the Linux source code pretty quickly if I felt the need to understand why it is that the userspace/kernelspace concept has failed (although, I have never done this, the option is there). So, again, we enter this point where I can't even get to criticizing Linux for susceptibility to a botnet or trojan because it doesn't practice security through obfuscation like leading operating systems.

On top of this, as a Linux user (and as evidenced above) my priorities and performance parameters are all out of whack and completely divorced from the mainstream (or so my perception goes). If they weren't, I would be using Windows primarily at home.

So I think that unless more free open source operating systems arise to compete with Linux, criticism will remain low. And you've got the cult barrier to break down where people have lived with the burden of paying out their ass for software so how can you criticize something after suffering for so long under the blah blah blah religious spiel blah blah blah.

The problem is more complicated... (4, Insightful)

gravesb (967413) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429725)

There are critics out there for Linux. But how many of them offer quality criticism, instead of complaining? And there are developers out there who are willing to listen to quality criticism, but how many of the few critics out there comment on any specific piece of software that goes into a complete Linux system? Both sides could do more- critics could write white papers with suggested corrections. Developers could take the "Linux sux" as an indication that they need a top down audit of their project. But both of those solutions are asking too much of either side. There should be better practices on both sides. And of course, this all ignores the good work on both sides that are being done, where there is constructive criticism and receptive developers. You can always use more of both, so there is never enough of either.

Re:The problem is more complicated... (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27430043)

There are critics out there for Linux. But how many of them offer quality criticism, instead of complaining?

Been there, done that, wrote the five part article, got the talking down from Bruce Perens himself. Bruce, like many in the OSS community, is a great guy. But the community suffers from a form of tunnel-vision where they can't see how the alternatives can possibly provide superior usability. They keep falling back on the tired, "but you don't get all these great programs at your finger-tips with Windows or Mac!" Which completely ignores the variety of issues with code that can't be in the repositories, the constant library hell present in most Linuxes, and the lack of usability in the desktop systems. The only real response to these criticisms is that "Debian keeps its repository up to date at all times". Not really an answer. More like avoiding the criticism.

Posting anonymously, because I really don't want to get into it again. I'm not the one doing the day to day work on Linux, nor have I managed to find the time to handle day to day activities. So I'll just leave it at that. And again I'll stress that Bruce is a great guy. Don't think that I have a personal issue with him in any way, or that he is callous or otherwise close-minded. Bruce is very much one of the "good guys". (Speaking of which, last I heard Bruce was working on a new version of the LSB that should hopefully reduce many of the cross-distro problems in the future. Here's to hoping he succeeds.)

I only pick on Bruce a smidge because the issue is representative of a greater issue in the community. The only person inside the community who has recognized the issue and tried to turn the ship slowly but surely is Mark Shuttleworth. That's why Ubuntu is such a popular version of Linux. Because Shuttleworth is attempting to directly address the usability concerns. But he's only a figurehead and he knows it. No one person wields significant power over the community and their decisions. Which is why he moves so slowly. Baby steps.

Re:The problem is more complicated... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27430103)

There are critics out there for Linux. But how many of them offer quality criticism, instead of complaining?

Ahhhh! 'User error'!!!

Linux is full of critics (4, Insightful)

erroneus (253617) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429751)

There is plenty of disagreement about every aspect of Linux. The kernel, the GUI, the apps, everything. And if you examined Linux, or a distro you aren't familiar with, you would probably find something you didn't like about it and you are quite free to criticise it.

Linux has no deficiency of people who criticise and no deficiency of people who listen and act on it.

Windows has no deficiency of people who criticise and a seemingly complete deficiency of people who listen and act on it.

MacOSX has worse than deficiency of people who criticise as they have people who actively criticise the critics and even attempt to silence them. MacOSX has a deficiency of people who listen and act on it. ...just to put it out the way I see it.

Re:Linux is full of critics (2, Insightful)

DigitalSorceress (156609) | more than 5 years ago | (#27430055)

MacOSX has worse than deficiency of people who criticise as they have people who actively criticise the critics and even attempt to silence them. MacOSX has a deficiency of people who listen and act on it. ...just to put it out the way I see it.

Indeed. It's called "Steventology", and it's just annoying.

Every OS / environment has its good and bad sides. Often the definition of good/bad is VERY personal.

For instance:

I don't mind using Windows as a user desktop environment... Though there are plenty of things wrong with it (especially Vista), I kind of LIKE the GUI itself.

As a server environment, I LOVE Linux, Solaris, and BSD, but I almost never touch the GUI, preferring a command shell. Just never found a WDM for *nix that I liked enough to want to use as my every-day interface to my computer. (though for server management, that really minimalist one we used to have on some SunOS4 boxes way way back wasn't horrid)

MAC pre-OsX days was just horrible. I HATED supporting them, but honestly, they're not too bad now that they're based on the BSD kernel. However, I HATE HATE HATE the MAC GUI.

What ultimately determines my choices is interoperability and available software. I'd be able to adjust to *nix as a primary os at work, but for home, I've got too much investment in software that runs on Windows (SoundForge, Vegas, Acid, Lightroom, bunches of games, etc...) (yes, Lightroom runs on mac, but as I mentioned I hate the Mac UI), and I refuse to try and wrangle them to work through an emulator.

So, *nix is really great for some things, and not so great for others. That's my own personal opinion, and I can see how folks could be on one far end or another (love / hate it), and that's ok. In the end, the (computer) world is a better place for having so many choices.

Here's some criticism (-1, Offtopic)

revjtanton (1179893) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429757)

March of the Penguins sucked! Morgan Freeman's soothing baritone only fueled my immense hatred for the penguin, it's struggles, and the stupid ice it lives in! Penguins kill at least 3 people every 3000 years`! We need to kill all of those non-flight bastards before they kill again!!!!

Bullshit... (5, Funny)

Savage-Rabbit (308260) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429759)

...Linux is above criticism. What we actually need is a: "-1, Microsoft fanboy" mod... or how about "-1, Dissing Linux"... or even better "-1, Heresy"...

What Linux needs is (4, Insightful)

NeoSkandranon (515696) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429763)

More developers that can handle being criticized.

Re:What Linux needs is (2, Interesting)

LDoggg_ (659725) | more than 5 years ago | (#27430115)

Are you implying that most of developers can't handle being criticized?

Who are the ones that can't? I spend a bit of time of freenode with other developers of many different open source projects. If I go into a channel and ask why some feature works a certain way or why something is missing or broken, I generally get a response that they could use help in fixing the issue.

Here, have some criticism (0, Flamebait)

Em Emalb (452530) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429769)

Linux FAILS on the desktop except in specific cases where a user has it installed by someone technically proficient or is technically proficient themselves.

Commercial apps for linux are few and far between.

Games on linux (that are available for Windows and OSX) basically suck and are usually bad clones of games that are awesome on other OSes.

The average user doesn't even know what the hell linux is.

(LOL, they kept the achievements?)

There. There's your bashing. I love linux in the server environment though.

Re:Here, have some criticism (1)

Dr. Manhattan (29720) | more than 5 years ago | (#27430127)

Linux FAILS on the desktop except in specific cases where a user has it installed by someone technically proficient or is technically proficient themselves.

The same is true for Windows and Macs. Dare you deny it? My wife got me a t-shirt to wear to family gatherings that says, "No, I will not fix your computer." because of all the questions anyone 'technically proficient' gets. Macs are better than Windows, but what do they call those people at the Apple stores? "Geniuses"?

Your other complaints have nothing to do with Linux per se and apply more to the environment it finds itself in. Frankly, I haven't run into the need for commercial Linux software so far (aside from some games), the FOSS stuff works for me. As to Linux games, you have half a point - but as Sturgeon's Law says, "Ninety percent of everything is crap." There [linuxlinks.com] are [introversion.com] good [penumbragame.com] games [linuxlinks.com] for Linux (and those are just commercial ones) but how much shovelware do you see for Windows? Even in the FOSS games, there are good ones, too. My kids love playing plenty of them, and even I enjoy a good game of bzflag now and then.

Get rid of the Shell, VI, etc for a month... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27429801)

The big thing I notice is that all those hard core losers who use linux always do everything using shell, VI, etc. Try getting rid of those for a month and just working with the applications. Then maybe it will be the year of the desktop because linux might have a windowing system with the productivity and attractiveness of either Mac OSX or Windows.

Maybe Linux needs more trolling journalists? (3, Interesting)

Zelig (73519) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429811)

From mailing lists and public bug trackers, my sense is that there are plenty of critics, and they are frequently able to find the right place to criticize.

I think that the extent of criticism within the system reduces the need for lobbying in the press to get your pet peeve addressed.

Re:Maybe Linux needs more trolling journalists? (2, Funny)

Em Emalb (452530) | more than 5 years ago | (#27430077)

The linux community needs JonKatz as it's primary spokesman.

Voices from the HellKernel:

Here is Frankie P Bagadonuts. He's a Linux user. He's 17 years old and lives in an abandoned warehouse near the "bad side" of the train tracks. Every morning he rides a bicycle hooked to his generator to power his network. He has not eaten in 2 days, however his "boxen" power on in 16.453794221 seconds. He is immensely proud of this fact, and has made t-shirts proclaiming his greatness. Later today, at school, he will be stuffed into 3 different lockers and have a ham-sandwich stuff down his shirt and be the recipient of 9 atomic-wedgies. Do not pity Frankie, for his is a common tale of the linux user.

Yeah, I could totally see that coming from him.

Re:Maybe Linux needs more trolling journalists? (1)

maccallr (240314) | more than 5 years ago | (#27430111)

From mailing lists and public bug trackers, my sense is that there are plenty of critics, and they are frequently able to find the right place to criticize.

I think that the extent of criticism within the system reduces the need for lobbying in the press to get your pet peeve addressed.

very good point, well made

I've had many moans about OS-X (flaky X11 support, for example) and never felt there was a place where I was being heard.

Community About Lowering Barriers (1)

Roxton (73137) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429819)

With the exception of well-funded open source projects, the point of the open source community is to dramatically reduce the barriers between
1) Vincent and Venkatesh have an idea.
2) Vincent and Venkatesh release software/patches.
3) Vincent and Venkatesh's software becomes popular.

Community mechanisms make it easy for Vincent and Venkatesh to learn, receive feedback, and get attention. It's a positive feedback loop whose success begets a growing pool of talent.

Positive attention and community mechanisms are at the heart of getting to #3, but unsolicited criticism plays a very small role. I don't think the Keir Thomas "gets it."

Just to ask the obvious.. (1)

joe user jr (230757) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429833)

Are you kidding? [tinyurl.com]

o... k... (3, Insightful)

noundi (1044080) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429853)

"...Linux people tend to see genuine critical evaluation as a bad thing."

Ok first of all, are we talking about users or developers? Because if we're talking about developers I doubt he's ever read one of Torvalds gentle mails about piece of code he doesn't like. And if we're talking about users I would like to have him sit down with my mother when I first installed Ubuntu on her PC. Do that and then come tell me there's no critisism towards Linux.

Any objective critisism drowns in FUD. (2)

miffo.swe (547642) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429857)

There isnt any lack of critisism against Linux at all. Its all over mailing lists, irc channels, blogs and whatnot and much of it is very down to earth and true.

The problem is that it drowns out in the torrent of FUD coming from Microsofts, its apologists, astroturfers and partners. Its like shouting next to a freight train.

Critcism == "Wrong vs. Right" (4, Funny)

boyfaceddog (788041) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429869)

In order to critique something you must have a baseline of what is correct and what is incorrect. The only thing incorrect in the linux/GNU OSes are coding bugs, not design features, and I think we have enough coders critiquing linux/GNU in that way. If the author wishes a community to criticize Linux, I think he should pick a distro and start there.

Re:Critcism == "Wrong vs. Right" (1)

stillwind85 (1516279) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429989)

Why is this tagged funny? I agree completely. Linux is not a monolithic structure like Windows where criticism of the OS is directed at a single version. The Linux OS doesn't really extend much past the kernel, and often the user does not interact directly with that. The criticism people would be giving would be directed at hundreds of other software packages built around this, and would be different depending on what distro the used.

You should look into linuxhaters (5, Informative)

Useful Wheat (1488675) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429891)

You should look into the Linux Haters Blog published here: http://linuxhaters.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com] The author is a former Linux contributor, and he offers many valuable insights into some of the issues with the code, for example:

Let me attempt to summarize. A) PulseAudio needs to work with existing applications, so it implements an ALSA emulation layer, except, it's not complete. Only 70% of ALSA applications work. So it's like, totally ready. B) So, in the true open source fashion, you should port your app to be a native PulseAudio client. Except that you can't. There's this yet-another-audio-library called libsidney, but it's not ready yet. (Hmm, this sounds familiar...) C) Fedora led the way in incorporating PulseAudio before it was ready, breaking audio for thousands of users. Then because open source is about copying good ideas and bad ones, a ton of other distros adopted it as well. Amazing guys. In a way, you've spread bad code that breaks audio on thousands of computers faster than a virus could have. And it's immune to antivirus! D) so now that we're in this "mess" (as the lead developer of PulseAudio calls it*), LSB comes along and says "we're going to standardize how your write audio apps!" Oh, but wait, ALSA's now "old" (we hardly knew ye), and I can't directly program PulseAudio. Hmm... So the article's brilliant solution? Standardize on the PulseAudio-safe subset of ALSA. WHAT THE FUCK. I can just imagine the future alsa man page. A big listing of functions, with a nice little asterisk next to those functions that you shouldn't use unless you want your app to totally FAIL on a system which has been sodomized by Pulse Audio. I can just see the developers of commercial Linux sound apps (all three of them) jumping for joy. And thus unfolds another chapter in long history of failed sound systems on Linux. Can they make it much worse? I, for one, am excited to see how much worse they can make it until we all go back to listening to square waves on our PC speakers. * BTW, also notice that it's the PulseAudio guy calling Linux audio a mess. Did he forget that it was his project that took the existing mess, and unloaded a giant steaming turd on it? Congratufuckinglations. You've just made it worse. You're a truly a worthy OSS contributor.

He's pretty harsh, but he always has a point behind it.

Don't ignore critics (3, Insightful)

Culture20 (968837) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429905)

FOSS / Linux needs more developers who don't ignore critics. Critics (yes, even legitimate ones) abound.

He asked for it.... (1)

T Murphy (1054674) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429907)

I hate linux!!!
...can you let me back in now?

Here, let me help: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27429921)

Everything that makes sound in Ubuntu [except for the flash plugin] is leaking threads like a motherfucker.

There. That's criticism. Mostly GNOME's fault, I suspect, but I'm doing my best here.

Yeah.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27429929)

And I need a hole in my head

For a productive critical discusson (1)

dmomo (256005) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429941)

Should we debate the questions: Who exactly is Linux for? What is it's job?

Where is this guy looking for critics? (1)

Millennium (2451) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429947)

Linux doesn't readily inspire quite the same brand of slavering zeal on both ends of the equation as, for example, Mac OS (original or X) or even Windows does. This much is true.

But this doesn't mean it has "virtually no critics." It just means that they have a stronger tendency toward subtlety and diplomacy, just as the fanboys do. Sure, there are a few outliers on both sides, but the writer of this article appears to believe that these are the only critics and fanboys out there, and that simply isn't true.

The open nature of Linux may also help mask some fanboys and critics, because they are more able to channel their opinions into more directly useful tasks. Short of getting hired by Microsoft, a Windows fanboy or critic has little choice but to write essays about how Feature X sucks, Algorithm Y is the one true path, and Pattern Z doesn't meet the needs of users: articles that may or may not be listened to. There's nothing else they can really do. Things aren't much better on the Mac side of things, despite the source being available; in this case it's matter of development model rather than licensing. The more open developer community around Linux (and many other OSS systems) is different; assuming your code is decent and your reasoning is sound, you actually have a fairly reasonable chance of getting accepted. It's not perfect, but it sucks less, and this likely results in a greater number of critics and fanboys becoming developers rather than pundits.

All these posts criticizing the journalist .. (1)

Samschnooks (1415697) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429949)

for saying there are no Linux critics.

A couple saying that if you criticize Linux you are berated.

Here's something to consider, why do people identify personally with on OS or brands for that matter? I've seen flame wars when folks said that RIGID power tools were really RYOBI (Techtronic, of Hong Kong, manufacturers RIGID for Emerson, RYOBI is there house brand and they outright own Milwaukee Power tools. FYI); so, it's not just OS fanboys. Same goes for Nikon or Canon fanboys.

I never got that. It's like criticizing Linux, Apple, Porsche or RIGID is criticizing you personally. It's not. Linux or Apple are OSes: not a lifestyle. Some folks just need to get a life!

Want criticism? (0, Troll)

scubamage (727538) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429983)

Most of these are from desktop linux, but because of them I've feared installing linux on any of our servers. First, there is no dependency control. Because everything is built using other libraries, software can be broken regularly by running the system update. If you run the official software update of a distrobution, it should NOT break your software. I don't have time to memorize every single library on my system, and then cross reference version numbers against a database of what software requires what, investigate whether or not there are updates to said software, etc. I run a system update, and suddenly a bunch of apps don't work. That is a problem. It makes it look unreliable, unmaintainable, and amateur. Change control!

Second, fix the damn graphics already. All three of the major graphics vendors have open sourced their drivers. All have linux releases of drivers. Why can I not get some modicom of 3d functionality out of the box? Even with the latest distros getting 3d acceleration to function correctly involves 2 nights of struggling, and half a case of red bull. Say what you want about "tailoring" but I don't need it to be tailored to me out of the box - I need it to work out of the box. This can be extended to all other drivers. I can't depend on hardware to work with it because the driver may require certain libraries. See complaint number 1. I can't have my fiber card suddenly not be able to access my SAN because someone decided to make a bug fix and change how a function gets used.

April Fools? (4, Insightful)

RyanFenton (230700) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429987)

Has this dude visited any community involving Linux users... ever?

The standard general Linux criticisms:

1. Driver support. Usually from a lack of manufacturer support.
2. No central focus on meeting business needs (tech support). This complaint is changing with such a large amount of development occurring with programmers employed by business communities for open source development.
3. Have to give up favorite Windows programs (apps & games). This improves over time, but yes, it is a different environment, again with a different historical focus.

Plus lots more, like programmer IDEs, look & feel issues, etc., etc. Criticisms, constructive or otherwise are everywhere Linux is discussed, including countless published sources.

I've certainly encountered folks with an unconstructive beef against Linux who make complaints that it gets unfair praise for being mediocre, merely catching up to Microsoft. With those folks, yes, complaints are sometimes muted because the target of their ire is usually changing so often that their rants are stale before they speak them - so they can become embarrassed by being contradicted in the heat of a discussion too often. But even then, such complaints are still extremely commonplace in both print and online.

I really don't understand where this dude is coming from.

Ryan Fenton

Re:April Fools? (1)

DaveV1.0 (203135) | more than 5 years ago | (#27430035)

No central focus on non-programmer and/or non-geek needs

There fixed that for you.

Re:April Fools? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27430135)

And the response to the criticism is just:

BlameLiesOnOthers(TM), and ThingsAreGettingBetter(TM)

Hey, wait, there's a lot of that on your own post:

Criticism is not complaining. (1)

FlyingBishop (1293238) | more than 5 years ago | (#27429995)

RTFA.

The author makes the very good point that criticism is not what most people think it is- criticism should be positive as well as negative, and more importantly, constructive.

The problem isn't so much that critics aren't excepted though, rather that the only kind of criticism accepted as constructive is that expressed in patch form.

Code/ Design Reviews (1)

acomj (20611) | more than 5 years ago | (#27430017)

As someone whos been developing for some time, I think there is a general dislike for code reviews even for experienced coders.

When you've worked on something especially if its as a volunteer its hard not to take criticism of you code and design personally. Its probably harder for linux where your code is out there for all to see. So maybe there is less criticism for fear of losing another coder.

You see this a little in the scientific community where old ideas take a while before they die even after being discredited.

No, Linux needs... (3, Insightful)

Anita Coney (648748) | more than 5 years ago | (#27430019)

...adherents and users who will accept and will act upon constructive criticism. Generally, any constructive criticism of Linux is answered in three ways:

1. "We're not here to help newbs figure out how Linux works, do the research and solve the problem yourself."

2. "There is no problem, that's the way it's supposed to work, Linux is not (Windows, OSX,....)

3. "Yes there is a problem, but Linux is open source so fix it yourself."

To prove my point, I will be modded down.

What Linux Lacks (1)

hduff (570443) | more than 5 years ago | (#27430027)

The mistake is assuming that Linux needs critics like Windows has, that is to say lots of paid professional writers writing for entities supported by advertising for operating systems and applications that are sold for profit.

I've seen that environment slowly develop -- but not so much, really -- in the Linux magazines (and I used to write for one), so if you want more "critics", you need to have more paid-for commercial software and more magazines that need to break up the advert space with predictable whining from a bunch of bitchy little girls.

Thankfully, we lack that. Don't expect it any time soon.

There are critics (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27430057)

The main problem is to have useful criticisms. That sucks does not help at all and most of criticisms i hear are along this line. What would be more useful is something like It does not work properly in this and that use cases. Of course critics have to be objective and cool headed. Fanboys that yell on [insert not-their-favourite-software] are pretty much useless and are rightfully disregarded.

I'm sick of being shot down. (1)

Richard Steiner (1585) | more than 5 years ago | (#27430061)

I've criticized Linux for YEARS about its constantly shifting desktop APIs, about the fact that everyone seems to love dynamic linking against the latest and greatest libraries all the time (almost ensuring that distributions will become obsolete a lot faster), about the fact that there are desktop elements in desktops such as OS/2, BeOS, and even PC/GEOS which *still* haven't been implemented in the latest window managers and desktop environments for Linux, etc.

After the first decade or so of making the same comments to deaf ears, I finally got sick of it and stopped. The Linux community doesn't seem to care about the experience of people outside of the UNIX (and perhaps Windows) realm. Let Linux have its shortcomings. I'm done making suggestions.

There are critics: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27430067)

Linux Hater's Blog

Linux Hater's Redux

Byte Corrupto (in spanish)

and... eh...

Linux Hater (4, Insightful)

Ed Avis (5917) | more than 5 years ago | (#27430071)

The article is quite right; there is too much groupthink and myopia. The Linux Hater's blog [blogspot.com] is a must-read as an antidote to all that, and he or she has some useful points to make. The articles on Linux Weekly News still have a Linux-centric viewpoint, naturally, but usually aren't afraid to point out shortcomings (especially when quoting the latest Linus flaming on the kernel list).

constructive Criticism. (4, Insightful)

Zombie Ryushu (803103) | more than 5 years ago | (#27430087)

I critisize Linux all the time, and I try and criticize it for very good reasons.

Let me give you an example.

The most wide spread Groupware Suite that is freely availible in the Linux world to challenge Exchange that I can see is eGroupware. eGroupware is an excellent suite in my opinion. Now. Linux has three dedicated Groupware Clients. Kontact, which is part of KDE-PIM. Evolution, which is part of Gnome, and Thunderbird.

Now. To do anything with eGroupware other than E-mail you need XML-RPC.

Kontact has XML-RPC Support, but it has a nasty bug where if it becomes De-Synchronized, it will respawn the same events on the Calendar over and over.

Evolution has no XML-RPC support. You can rig up GroupDAV

Mozilla Sunbird has no XML-RPC Support.

What does it say about Linux's productivity-ware when two of the three Groupware clients produced by Linux developers cannot communicate with its intended native Groupware servers?

Linux smells.. (0, Offtopic)

lupinstel (792700) | more than 5 years ago | (#27430129)

Linux smells of elderberries.

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