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Bethesda Talks DLC Size and Limitations

Soulskill posted more than 5 years ago | from the better-smaller-faster-easier dept.

Games 93

Gamasutra has an interview with Pete Hines, product manager for Fallout 3, about Bethesda's philosophy for DLC, and how it's changed over the years. Quoting: "All these people are out there playing our game by the hundreds of thousands on a daily basis and we want to be able to bring those folks something they could do in a much shorter time frame, rather than just saying, 'See you next year.' That instantly ruled out doing a big expansion because those things just take so damn long to do. So we started looking at the biggest stuff we'd done that people really liked, but that we could do in smaller, digestible chunks. That's where we came to the Knights of the Nine model — it's substantive and it adds multiple hours of game play and new items, but we can do it in a time frame that allows us to get it out without waiting forever. That's what we've gone for with Fallout 3."

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93 comments

Profit-making strategy (1)

Warlord88 (1065794) | more than 5 years ago | (#27566699)

I haven't even RTFA. But it makes sense to sell DLC for extra $$. Especially when you know that lots of people are hooked on to your game. Cashing in on addiction is a very old strategy.

Re:Profit-making strategy (2, Insightful)

TibbonZero (571809) | more than 5 years ago | (#27566757)

Yea, and it makes sense too on the player's end. I'd rather pay $15 for some more really fun experiences in a game that I already know I like, than waste $50 on a game that I might not really enjoy all that much.

Re:Profit-making strategy (5, Informative)

TheEldest (913804) | more than 5 years ago | (#27566873)

The point of the article, though, isn't whether they should make DLC. It's whether they should do additional content in a DLC or as a full expansion. If you remember Morrowind, there were two huge expansion packs (Bloodmoon and Tribunal). Each with an amount of play almost equal to the original game.

But Knights of the Nine, a DLC for Oblivion, only gave 10 - 15 hours of play (that of a standard primary quest line).

Easier and quicker to release and sold for less than an expansion.

Personally, I'd like an expansion over DLC (if this is the given choice). I'm ok waiting.

Re:Profit-making strategy (1)

superppl (1318895) | more than 5 years ago | (#27572379)

Maybe after they release a bunch of DLC, they can put it all together in one package and sell it as an expansion.
I wouldn't mind the wait, it'll take that long before I have a computer that can play it reasonably.

Re:Profit-making strategy (1)

Zumbs (1241138) | more than 5 years ago | (#27577853)

Not only did the expansion packs for Morrowind add lots of extra stuff to do, they also improved on a number of features of the overall game. At least I seem to recall that the Journal became a lot more useful after one of the expansion packs. This is not really possible with the DLCs as the exe would most likely have to be patched for that. But then again ... they are patching the Fallout 3 engine to expand the scripting language to handle the new worldspaces.

Re:Profit-making strategy (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27592187)

What's a DLC?

Re:Profit-making strategy (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27570289)

I agree in principal, but here's two problems I see with this. First, the PC version is extremely buggy, with bugs that require using the console commands to fix so one can continue the game. That should have been Bethesda's first priority. Second, the DLC content should be free for people who buy the Collector's Edition. Granted, it comes with more stuff in the box, but paying extra for a CE, and then having to pay for the DLC as well is a little ridiculous.

Frosty piss? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27566705)

WOOOO!

Re:Frosty piss? (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27568697)

you should talk to a doctor about that. I think there was a House episode where a guy had frosty piss. You probably have kidney failure, an std, or neuro damage (possibly caused by the std).

Re:Frosty piss? (1)

Cor-cor (1330671) | more than 5 years ago | (#27579245)

I've heard it's a sure sign of lupus.

I find it amusing... (4, Informative)

AKAImBatman (238306) | more than 5 years ago | (#27566723)

...that the DLC model was supposed to be modeled after the mod communities for Quake and Unreal. Yet somehow, I have seen almost no sign of anything that looks like post-release modifications. Studios seem to hold back a bit of content, then release that as DLC. Not exactly the original intent. Especially when the game is incomplete without the DLC.

(Interestingly, Mega Man 9 walked a fine line there. Technically, all the "DLC" was already in the executable. Yet the stuff you paid for was truly above and beyond the primary gameplay. Which made it ideal as either Easter Eggs or DLC. Kudos to Capcom for at least getting that right.)

Re:I find it amusing... (0)

quadrox (1174915) | more than 5 years ago | (#27566805)

I disagree.

You paid for the game with what's in it at the time of purchase. If you don't like it, don't buy it - you have plenty of opportunities to find out what is and is not included. If the developers want to sell you extra content, its still your choice to buy it or not. Whether they already had it finished earlier is of no importance.

Furthermore, even in oblivion, where they added some extra quest for the mage tower (never completed it, so don't know the details) there may have been a good reason to do as they did. What if they had already planned to add these extra quests as DLC, but they had not actually finished implementing them at time of release. If they didn't add the "locked room" in the tower at time of release, it would be very odd if it suddenly was there after installing the DLC. So they add the room in a locked state, making it possible to add the actual room in a DLC.

You may argue that they shouldn't modify existing quests in a DLC (or give the appearance of incompleteness) - but its your choice to buy it or not.

Of course, if every game developer starts doing it there is nothing left but to protest these things. But even then you should address the actual issue, not the symptoms.

Re:I find it amusing... (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 5 years ago | (#27569565)

Of course, if every game developer starts doing it there is nothing left but to protest these things. But even then you should address the actual issue, not the symptoms.

Since it already appears to be the norm, it's long past time to start complaining about it.

On the other hand, I think you both missed the point -- this was pretty much always guaranteed to be the case. What did you expect? That companies would keep spending money on games you already bought? If they're going to invest the time and effort, they'll invest it in a new game. A whole new title based on the same engine will likely net a lot more return than some DLC that will take just as much effort, even for for-pay DLC.

Re:I find it amusing... (1)

quadrox (1174915) | more than 5 years ago | (#27570833)

Which was my point exactly - you have bought the game so why should they give you anything more for free.

What I tried to say in addition to this was that if there is anything to complain about, it is that they sometimes give you the appearance of having bought an incomplete game, because they are leaving placeholders for the DLC in the original game. If anything should be changed at all, this particular practice should stop. The result of this would be that game companies can only add completely new content, not build on existing stuff. Because if they build on existing stuff, it looks like something was missing from the game before.

Personally, I am completely fine with DLC. But I agree with most people that having "half" a mage tower in oblivion only to add the rest in a DLC smells a bit fishy. I would rather have some other quest removed from the game, but have a completed mage tower instead. But the concept of DLC as such instead of expansion packs does not bother me at all.

Re:I find it amusing... (2, Informative)

TheEldest (913804) | more than 5 years ago | (#27571605)

Point of Interest:

The unfinished room was in the Mage *Guild* Tower in the Imperial City. The whole Arcane University was there, it was just one room that was locked. It was added later in the DLC The Orrery.

There was also a DLC called the Mage Tower. This was a house mod released all at once. I has no relation to the locked room in the Mage Guild Tower. (now that I think of it, I think the Mage Guild Tower is officially called the Archmage Tower)

Re:I find it amusing... (1)

quadrox (1174915) | more than 5 years ago | (#27571993)

You are correct of course, it has been a while since I played Oblivion.

Re:I find it amusing... (1)

Sancho (17056) | more than 5 years ago | (#27575485)

DLC-like packs have been around for a long, long time. Before the Internet, though, the only way to get the packs was through normal distribution channels.

Take Ultima 7. Pretty popular game in its time. It had an expansion pack (The Forge of Virtue) which added an entirely new island to the game. They maintained the illusion of a story by saying that it rose out from the depths, oh, and here's a ship to go check it out (in case you don't have a ship yet.) And the island integrated well with the mythology of the series, so it wasn't even particularly out of place.

Ultima 7 Part 2: Serpent Isle took a similar tack. There were in-game teleporters to move throughout the world. If you installed the expansion, The Silver Seed, then a character in the game presents you with a recently found artifact which seems to relate to the teleporters. Go to a teleporter, use the artifact, and you're transported to the new content. It's not as seemless or elegant as the expansion for part 1, but it still works well, and I think it's a creative balance between putting a locked door somewhere (making you wonder how to get the key) and making a door appear from nowhere once you install the new content.

Re:I find it amusing... (1)

KeithIrwin (243301) | more than 5 years ago | (#27568433)

The DLC in Burnout Paradise has all been new additions. They've also added some substantial new content in free updates over the year and a half or so since the game was first released. EA definitely gets props from me for doing it right on that one.

Re:I find it amusing... (1)

Kalriath (849904) | more than 5 years ago | (#27578839)

Not EA, they're just the publisher. It's Criterion.

Re:I find it amusing... (1)

caramelcarrot (778148) | more than 5 years ago | (#27570597)

Yeah, I'm not seeing the difference between DLC and what Valve did in the patches for the original HL (i.e. practically remade the game with addons) except you have to pay for it.

Re:I find it amusing... (1)

MaineCoon (12585) | more than 5 years ago | (#27574359)

Games generally have to be content locked a month to two (depending on PC vs console and lead times on manufacturing); during this time the majority of the development team is freed up. This time can be spent on making some new content for release as DLC. Sometimes the content had seen some effort earlier on in the development cycle, then was cut from the game before it was finished.

That said, I've worked on a couple teams that make maps during development that were later released as DLC. Usually the content was made as an exclusive for one of the big retailers (GameStop, Best Buy, Walmart), as they all want their own little perks, and then was later released as DLC for all.

Democratic Leadership Council? Disability Law Cent (4, Informative)

Quothz (683368) | more than 5 years ago | (#27566765)

Am I the only person who hasn't a clue what DLC means? Neither the summary nor the fucking article can be bothered to tell me.

Re:Democratic Leadership Council? Disability Law C (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27566775)

Downloadable content

Re:Democratic Leadership Council? Disability Law C (1)

Quothz (683368) | more than 5 years ago | (#27566781)

Downloadable content

Ah, thank you. That makes this much easier t'read.

Re:Democratic Leadership Council? Disability Law C (1)

l3prador (700532) | more than 5 years ago | (#27566779)

DownLoadable Content.

Re:Democratic Leadership Council? Disability Law C (1)

dangitman (862676) | more than 5 years ago | (#27567099)

Shouldn't it just be "DC" then? It's only two words, not three.

Re:Democratic Leadership Council? Disability Law C (1)

ensignyu (417022) | more than 5 years ago | (#27567149)

Download is often abbreviated as DL, like "DL speed" or "# DLs".

Also, DC stands for a lot of other things, but if I see DLC I immediately think of games since there's no other notable meanings of DLC that I know of.

Re:Democratic Leadership Council? Disability Law C (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27575375)

Shouldn't it be... No wait. Just shut the fuck up.

Re:Democratic Leadership Council? Disability Law C (2, Informative)

Warlord88 (1065794) | more than 5 years ago | (#27566785)

Re:Democratic Leadership Council? Disability Law C (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27566861)

The GP is in the right here, just the other day I came across the usage of this term for the first time. I just now figured out what my cousin was talking about (XBox related). Funny thing is, I am the geek out of us. You'd think I was the guy who'd be speaking in tongues. It gave me a little insight into the way "we" talk to "them" (Nvidia GeForce MX 90000 XP WC1000 P4 512Mhz).

Re:Democratic Leadership Council? Disability Law C (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27566823)

Yes.

Re:Democratic Leadership Council? Disability Law C (4, Funny)

Matt_R (23461) | more than 5 years ago | (#27567073)

I read the headline, and was trying to think why the military hospital [wikipedia.org] was using an old network protocol [wikipedia.org] .

It's marketing crapspeak (2, Insightful)

caitsith01 (606117) | more than 5 years ago | (#27567171)

Apparently you're not a console fanboy - this seems to be common parlance amongst PS3/X-Boxers.

The marketing drones clearly decided that "expansion pack" or "add on" or other "English" phrases were too "understandable" for "humans" and so began employing this crappy acronym instead. Another favourite of mine is "SKU" which apparently means "thing for sale" or "item for sale", although I am unsure of its precise meaning.

So get some DLC in your SKU, pronto.

Re:It's marketing crapspeak (1)

Lloyd_Bryant (73136) | more than 5 years ago | (#27567223)

The marketing drones clearly decided that "expansion pack" or "add on" or other "English" phrases were too "understandable" for "humans" and so began employing this crappy acronym instead. Another favourite of mine is "SKU" which apparently means "thing for sale" or "item for sale", although I am unsure of its precise meaning.

SKU = "Stock-Keeping Unit".

Re:It's marketing crapspeak (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27568029)

And SKU has nothing to do with marketing at all. It's all about back-end inventory management/warehousing. You'll almost never see actual marketing materials intended for the general public mention the word SKU.

Re:Democratic Leadership Council? Disability Law C (1)

guyminuslife (1349809) | more than 5 years ago | (#27567489)

That is exactly what I thought. Especially when the company is named after a DC suburb.

Re:Democratic Leadership Council? Disability Law C (1)

DAldredge (2353) | more than 5 years ago | (#27574345)

Data Link Control - it is an older network protocol.

Re:Democratic Leadership Council? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27581785)

Dick Loving Cunts!

Support (2, Interesting)

TheFlyingBuddha (1373717) | more than 5 years ago | (#27566835)

Too bad Bethesda can't seem to patch their games. VATS (the over-hyped, poor attempt at appeasing turn-based combat fans and only marketable aspect of the game's combat) has been broken for months now. I'd take "see you in a year" if it meant they actually fixed more bugs than they made. http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=973957 [bethsoft.com]

Precisely (2, Interesting)

caitsith01 (606117) | more than 5 years ago | (#27567203)

As far as I am concerned, Bethesda still hasn't released a final, stable build of the base game. Instead of wasting time with minor content additions, they should really sort out the fundamental stability problems the PC version of Fallout 3 continues to have.

In particular, I have personally seen severe stability issues with this game on three completely separate PCs (out of a total of three that I have tried it on, so 100%). Two of these were built in the last 12 months (one, sadly, for the express purpose of playing Fallout 3... a friend of mine is a tad obsessed with Oblivion and got rather overexcited about F3). All of them contain nothing but quality brand name parts etc, and all of them run other games well. Two of them even run Crysis well at very high detail.

Yet Fallout 3 three crashes on all of them - not just nice crashes, but serious, OS-killing crashes as well as crashes to desktop. On one, it's every hour or so. On another, when specific events happen (like opening VATS, shooting things... BAM back to desktop). On the third, it's around 5-15 minutes between crashes. On all three of them, it's basically not worth playing - you just know that the game is going to die on you unexpectedly sooner or later, which really breaks the immersion and doesn't exactly promote investment of time into playing it.

Over at the Bethesda forums, gangs of fanboys ramble on about how the game works well for them on their systems so therefore anyone who has issues must be experiencing a problem with their PC, not the game. But when you have multiple PCs, which otherwise run well in a variety of similar applications, and one particular game causes serious and replicable crashes, then there is something wrong with the game. And it's clear from the forums and from a quick Google search that there are many, many others who have similar issues.

So less DLC, more properly tested and polished games!!! Dammit Bethesda, I loved Oblivion and you've pretty much burnt through your credits with this farce.

Re:Precisely (2, Informative)

CronoCloud (590650) | more than 5 years ago | (#27567419)

As a trouble shooting question, that you might have thought of yourself, is there anything the PC's have in common? Chipsets, graphics cards, sound cards, specific drivers? That would be the first thing I'd check...if I was a PC gamer, which I'm not, I'm playing Fallout 3 on a PS3.

Re:Precisely (1)

ucblockhead (63650) | more than 5 years ago | (#27576691)

Me too. Honestly, I mostly only play console games these days because they tend to be more stable than their PC counterparts.

Re:Precisely (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27567507)

Well, with my computer, (which isn't even that great, built cheaply and about a year old) it crashes sure, but it seems to be pretty random, could happen 5 minutes into the game or I could play for hours and hours with no problems, and of course it's got some bugs with VATS and the like, but it's really nothing I feel like complaining about, and it's certainly never crashed my whole computer. I'm on XP SP3, are you perhaps on Vista? I had more crashing with Vista.

Re:Precisely (1)

Gromius (677157) | more than 5 years ago | (#27567545)

I'm with you, the game is good but god damn its buggy as hell. I've lucked out in that its playable for me but its still a little ropey. Graphical artifacts occasionally on the far right (a dial appears there flickering), occasional crashes to desktop (relatively rare although molerats seem to cause it frequently) and alt-tabing means instant hang. I've noticed that if it starts crashing, it will become much more frequent untill a reboot.

Again this is on a fairly standard high end build (at the time) that has no problems with any other games (8800 GTX + Q6600 + vista).

So Bethesda, its a great game but I'm not buying any DLC untill the main game is a lot more bug free.

Re:Precisely (1)

SalaSSin (1414849) | more than 5 years ago | (#27567747)

Have to say never had a problem with Fall Out (well, no problem i couldn't solve anyway), but what i had with several games is a bizarre one worth checking out:

If you use a bluetooth keyboard and/or mouse, uninstall the vendors drivers, and use the standard WIDCOMM drivers included in windows.
Solved my problems with FEAR and its expansion packs and Call Of Duty 5.

Re:Precisely (1)

wjousts (1529427) | more than 5 years ago | (#27568609)

I have to agree. I've seen maybe one or two crashes in hours of game play and nothing that took the whole system down. Sounds like there's something else going on.

Re:Precisely (1)

Dunkirk (238653) | more than 5 years ago | (#27568149)

I had a lot of crashing problems at first too. I tried Vista, both 32- and 64-bit, to get away from it (thinking it might be driver related), but it got worse in both cases over XP. I finally discovered that my memory wasn't correctly matched with my motherboard. Like me, you seem to have put your computer(s) together yourself. Are you certain that everything works correctly? Have you run memtest to make sure? Like you, my machine didn't have any other consistent problems until I ran FO3. Looking back on it, there were niggling problems every few weeks that I chalked up to "Windows," but now that the memory is sorted, I don't have ANY problems, either in the game, or at the desktop. (I was finally forced to admit this because I normally run Linux for everything non-game-related, and I started getting kernel panics doing software compiles. I knew something had to be physically wrong.)

Re:Precisely (1)

sw155kn1f3 (600118) | more than 5 years ago | (#27568741)

No idea what f3 uses as a drm, but I started to get bluescreens after installing Gothic 3. After some googling and stuff I tried to disable starforce drivers from the system. And wonder what, system started to run faster and no bluescreens. This is just ridiculous to pay for game and have bluescreens from the drm the game includes.
Try to enable hidden devices in xp device manager and set starforce or whatever drm they use drivers status to Disabled. Then download no-cd and voila.
I could as well just download the game from torrent.

Re:Precisely (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27569715)

What? Really? I've put about 80 hours into the game so far and I've only had 2 or 3 crashes and none that took the OS with it. I could be lucky but I prefer to believe I simply built a better computer.

Wait a sec. . . (4, Insightful)

MagusSlurpy (592575) | more than 5 years ago | (#27566885)

That instantly ruled out doing a big expansion because those things just take so damn long to do.

Isn't that what Valve said about the Half-Life 2 episodes?

Re:Wait a sec. . . (1)

Ender77 (551980) | more than 5 years ago | (#27581007)

Exactly, it sounds good on paper, but ANY content could take as much as years to make. If it is going to take as long as a year or two to make then they might as well make a FULL game instead of ripping us off.

RE5 DLC (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27567057)

You know what grinded my gears? The fact that RE5 touted its multiplayer abilities, which is unique for a Resident Evil game looking at previous offerings in the series.

However, it turns out that one of the most popular game modes for multiplayer was released as DLC only a few days after it hit the shelf for yet another five bucks ontop of the game cost.

The worst part about this you say?? The five dollar DLC was merely an unlock tag FOR CONTENT ON THE GAME DISC YOU ALREADY BOUGHT. I don't consider that DLC, I consider that disrespectful to the fanbase and Bethesda got my money because of this (and I will prob even buy the two DLC map addons for Fallout since I like the game and it's not already on the disc I purchased)

Re:RE5 DLC (1)

Renraku (518261) | more than 5 years ago | (#27567297)

I agree. Its very disrespectful.

Its not much different than selling someone a car and then charging them an extra fee for the key to unlock the trunk.

Re:RE5 DLC (1)

Kalriath (849904) | more than 5 years ago | (#27578905)

BETHESDA got your money because of that? They bloody PIONEERED that scummy trick!

Horse Armour anyone?!?

Ugh (1)

Kamrom (609839) | more than 5 years ago | (#27567169)

Bethesda need to be quiet. We're all already very mad that their patch in January broke the game quite badly, and their recent patch did not fix it. We got the usual Bethesda Runaround. In any case, instead of making pointless content that unlocks stuff we shouldve had in the first place, or that no one wants, they should fix their game so we can actually play it. Its really irritating.

Re:Ugh (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27567525)

It's not "unlocking" a 300mb file of new story and new terrain (and new weapons in the last one), it's "downloading". It is extra content.

Seems at odds with reality (1)

ErikTheRed (162431) | more than 5 years ago | (#27567195)

I thought the process was more along the lines of:

1: Wait for Microsoft to cut them a check

2: Release DLC for X-Box

3: Profit!

(no ambiguous steps here).

Bring back proper DLC! (1)

IBBoard (1128019) | more than 5 years ago | (#27567271)

I think they mis-quoted him. What he probably said was:

So we started looking at the biggest stuff we'd done that people really liked, but that we could do in smaller, digestible chunks. After that we thought 'given that HTTP downloads from a normal website are so easy, can be backed up and don't rely on some other system, how can we screw it up?', so we found Games for Windows Live. That's what we've gone for with Fallout 3."

If they're going to do DLC, at least make it downloadable rather than pushing it through Games for Windows Live!

Re:Bring back proper DLC! (1)

IBBoard (1128019) | more than 5 years ago | (#27567279)

Oooops, missed a closing tag there! That last sentence was mine ;)

Re:Bring back proper DLC! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27568157)

If they're going to do DLC, at least make it downloadable rather than pushing it through Games for Windows Live!

I dunno. Mine downloaded fine from NewsDemon. ; ) I will buy all 3 DLC packs when they're released for sale on a single DVD though.

Re:Bring back proper DLC! (1)

Kalriath (849904) | more than 5 years ago | (#27578931)

Unless you're on a PS3. Bethesda doesn't want your money then.

Re:Bring back proper DLC! (1)

wjousts (1529427) | more than 5 years ago | (#27568645)

I, for one, am waiting for a boxed set of all the DLC. I'm want to pay with real money, not Mickey Mouse Microsoft dollars (which you can't buy in exactly the right amount).

For me, the window is closing though, I haven't played FO3 for a couple of months and I'm rapidly losing interest.

Re:Bring back proper DLC! (1)

tlhIngan (30335) | more than 5 years ago | (#27582431)

I, for one, am waiting for a boxed set of all the DLC. I'm want to pay with real money, not Mickey Mouse Microsoft dollars (which you can't buy in exactly the right amount).

Just a little while longer. Amazon.com (if you've got a US Xbox Live account, and a US billing address) is letting people buy Xbox Arcade games initially, but I'm sure they're going to expand everything else you can buy in the Xbox Live Marketplace.

Not that you'll get a discount, though - the price is the same.

Unlike say, the Mickey Microsoft Points, where you can find retailers often selling prepaid cards at a good discount, or sales even. (Hint: they count as "game accessories" so when you get those "20% off game accessories"...)

expansions (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27567373)

But but...I *like* expansions. Tribunal and Bloodmoon for Morrowind were quite good. All the cheap downloadable crap for Oblivion was pretty mediocre, and I get the impression that it's the same for Fallout 3.

Re:expansions (1)

pandrijeczko (588093) | more than 5 years ago | (#27567435)

I've not actually downloaded any of the Fallout 3 DLC stuff yet, but I do wonder if it is a bit like the editing of a movie - namely that a lot of the crap gets edited out of the movie for the cinema release but then gets thrown back in as extras on the DVD release.

In other words, DLC is just the stuff that wasn't good enough to go on the main game DVD in the first place.

Re:expansions (1)

GarretSidzaka (1417217) | more than 5 years ago | (#27567441)

i agree. the nights of the nine unlocked some features that should have already been in the main game at purchase, kinda like a patch with content for $15 of microsoft points.

And the new DLC has like maybe a dozen or less small areas, each, added to play. and anchorage had ultra boring gameplay (like a crappy FPS with NO roleplaying), and mediocre loot at the end (except maybe the chinese spy suit).

I want an expansion. Its not content, its a fucking game, that I buy and play. Not some quest i add, or some fucking area i wont go to or house i wont use.

Re:expansions (1)

Beyond_GoodandEvil (769135) | more than 5 years ago | (#27568605)

And the new DLC has like maybe a dozen or less small areas, each, added to play. and anchorage had ultra boring gameplay (like a crappy FPS with NO roleplaying), and mediocre loot at the end (except maybe the chinese spy suit).
Actually, the best part of the Anchorage mission(since the gauss rifle is buggy) is the ability to wear power armor well before you are half way through the game unlike when you get the power armor training perk in the vanilla game.

Knowing PS3 is 2nd class customer for Bethesda... (2, Insightful)

khchung (462899) | more than 5 years ago | (#27567401)

I will hold off buying any of their games until I see the DLC available for PS3 first.

Also, as with the "strategy guides" approach of the past, DLC will most likely be used to make you pay multiple times to get the whole game, it becomes simple due diligence to make sure DLC (a.k.a. missing parts of the game) will really be available for your platform before you buy.

Re:Knowing PS3 is 2nd class customer for Bethesda. (1)

Zumbs (1241138) | more than 5 years ago | (#27567563)

I don't think that the DLCs will ever be available for PS3. Bethesda seems to have made a deal with MS, so that DLCs are exclusive to XBox and PC. On the PC, however, Bethesda have released modding tools, and the modding community have made more than 5000 mods (take a look here [fallout3nexus.com] ).

Re:Knowing PS3 is 2nd class customer for Bethesda. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27567629)

Holding off to buy a game is an Excellent policy. Not only is the "DLC" available at a later date, but so are a lot of the patches.

I can't count how many times (especially recently) that I've felt like a Beta or even an Alpha tester while playing a new title.

Re:Knowing PS3 is 2nd class customer for Bethesda. (1)

hattig (47930) | more than 5 years ago | (#27567795)

Also the games drop in price massively, and the hardware required to run them is cheaper. Brilliant for casual gamers like me, who might not be able to invest the time required to even get to needing DLC.

Not that the PS3 ever gets DLC, Microsoft pays off the companies using its monopoly-gained monies to limit it to the 360. I just hope there is a time limit to the DLC platform tie-in.

Re:Knowing PS3 is 2nd class customer for Bethesda. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27567659)

I hate to break the bad news to you, but the PS3 is second class in just about every other aspect of the gaming market as well.

Re:Knowing PS3 is 2nd class customer for Bethesda. (1)

feepness (543479) | more than 5 years ago | (#27567733)

I hate to break the bad news to you, but the PS3 is second class in just about every other aspect of the gaming market as well.

Very true considering the Wii is first in most.

Re:Knowing PS3 is 2nd class customer for Bethesda. (1)

feepness (543479) | more than 5 years ago | (#27567755)

I will hold off buying any of their games until I see the DLC available for PS3 first.

I don't really get this. I played Oblivion for about two or three hundred hours without buying the expansion. I've played Fallout 3 for about the same. And I haven't nearly seen everything in either game.

Who needs DLC for these games? Most DLC seems to me completely superfluous.

Re:Knowing PS3 is 2nd class customer for Bethesda. (1)

afabbro (33948) | more than 5 years ago | (#27570447)

I don't really get this. I played Oblivion for about two or three hundred hours without buying the expansion. I've played Fallout 3 for about the same. And I haven't nearly seen everything in either game. Who needs DLC for these games? Most DLC seems to me completely superfluous.

As a huge Oblivion player, I have to say that Fallout 3 rocks...but it's does not have as much content as Oblivion, despite being priced the same. There are a lot more quests, characters, and elements of the environment in Oblivion than in Fallout 3...I dunno, maybe 50% more? 100% more? Heck, just look at the books you find...in Oblivion, when you pick one up you can actually read through it. In F3, it's just a Pre-Ruin Book.

I'm just using that as an example...my gut feeling is that where Oblivion had some minor aspects that could still take up a hundred hours of play (e.g., vampirism, with all its related quests, sewers, catching it/ridding it, etc.), F3 either doesn't have subplots like that or elevates them to major plots without more content.

I suspect that in 2005, Bethesda operated under a model of getting as much into the base game in order to impress people. In 2009, the model is more "get as little into the base game as we need, and then we can release more as DLC". Easier on their schedule/budgets and more revenue-friendly.

That's not to say that F3 doesn't have a lot or isn't a great game...it's just that I paid $50 for each (and Oblivion was 3-4 years of inflation earlier) and I got a lot more when I bought Oblivion.

Re:Knowing PS3 is 2nd class customer for Bethesda. (1)

feepness (543479) | more than 5 years ago | (#27606137)

If Oblivion was 3 to 4 years of inflation earlier you paid MORE for it.

I understand what you are saying, I don't see it that way. There is a lot more random stuff in FO3 (Andale, SatCom nukes, Talon Company base) that doesn't even have a quest associated with it. I see them as comparable though I like Fallout 3 more (one major thing: more damn voice actors), but you are correct that is an opinion.

Re:Knowing PS3 is 2nd class customer for Bethesda. (1)

sanosuke001 (640243) | more than 5 years ago | (#27567929)

First off, their decision to not release ps3 DLC is why I didn't pay for the fallout 3 DLC. (I might have still played it, however)

As for DLC in general, I'd rather have a 30 hour expansion in a year rather than load my game up every 6 months to play 6 hours of content. DLC just doesn't add up financially or mathematically.

Re:Knowing PS3 is 2nd class customer for Bethesda. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27568435)

Agreed. I play Fallout 3 on Windows (via. bootcamp) because someone gave it to me as a gift. Otherwise I wouldn't own it regardless of how good it is. It is also a good enough game that normally I would be recommending it to others and giving copies as gifts to friends and family members on multiple platforms. However, because DLC is unavailable on the PS3 I have done none of those things. Until Bethesda gets out of bed with Microsoft I will not personally purchase any of their products.

Re:Knowing PS3 is 2nd class customer for Bethesda. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27568617)

The whole game?
The size of the base game is staggering. Go look at the wikia page for locations. There is a ton of stuff to do, places to go etc. About my only complaint is the things to kill are not varied.

Re:Knowing PS3 is 2nd class customer for Bethesda. (1)

EXTomar (78739) | more than 5 years ago | (#27570153)

I don't think it is coming not because Bethesda hates Sony/loves Microsoft but they have serious quality issues. The game by itself had problems on all three platforms. Anchorage was kind of small but The Pitt is supposed to be large and was a little broken when first released. They can't seem to get things stable so the last thing they need to do is sign up for another platform to support.

Re:Knowing PS3 is 2nd class customer for Bethesda. (1)

Nevyn (5505) | more than 5 years ago | (#27574267)

I admit that I didn't get fallout 3 because I knew they were holding the DLC back. Then again, I'd happily recommend Bioshock and the ps3 exclusive DLC. In many ways the X-box vs. ps war is only screwing the gamers, on the other hand who wants there to be just one player (unless it's Nintendo ;).

Re:Knowing PS3 is 2nd class customer for Bethesda. (1)

MemoryDragon (544441) | more than 5 years ago | (#27575839)

Get yourself a PC then you can have the DLC...

DLC ? not hanks (1)

aepervius (535155) | more than 5 years ago | (#27568059)

If I could just pay with my CC, and play with it after an initial activation, I would do it. But the DLC of fallout 3 I had to go through loop and hoop and passport whatever. No thanks.

Re:DLC ? not hanks (1)

Steauengeglase (512315) | more than 5 years ago | (#27569303)

It begs the question, why didn't Bethesda sell the DLC through Steam? At this point gamers realize that Games for Windows is nothing but an attempt to put a slow strangle hold on PC games, so why bother with that in the first place? I think I'd rather not release a game for PC than release a game in a format that will turn customers off to using that platform.

Re:DLC ? not hanks (1)

Kalriath (849904) | more than 5 years ago | (#27578989)

Um, let's rephrase your statement, shall we?

It begs the question, why didn't Bethesda sell the DLC through HTTP download? At this point gamers realize that Steam is nothing but an attempt to put a slow strangle hold on PC games, so why bother with that in the first place? I think I'd rather not release a game for PC than release a game in a format that will turn customers off to using that platform.

Re:DLC ? not hanks (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27572317)

What? Buy it on xbox live and stop whining

DLC has been disappointing (1)

jollyreaper (513215) | more than 5 years ago | (#27569287)

I picked up Civ Revolutions. The DLC they have is ok but nowhere near like what you end up getting, fan and professional-made for the PC versions. Sadly, PC remains the king for modding. I think the issue is that the console companies and the publishers on console just don't feel comfortable giving up that level of control.

As I understand it, Oblivion needed the fan tweaks to make it the perfect game it could have been -- plain vanilla as it came from the publisher it was lacking on both PC and console. Unfortunately, you can't install those tweaks on the console. There's no technical reason like back in the day with the PSX, Sony and Microsoft could allow it if they wanted to -- it's obvious that they don't.

Really, I think the whole point of DLC should be about maintaining fan interest between major releases. When it comes to strategy games, version number releases should be five years apart and be built around significant revisions in the graphics engine. Point releases would be balancing and bug fixes with DLC to keep the game fresh and exciting, more scenarios, varying maps, new units, etc. This keeps the game fresh and vibrant until the new version comes out, keeps people interested. If we're talking shooters, the DLC should be new episodes. I don't know how Half-Life fell apart and really don't care since the storylines in HF2 sucked. But if we look at Half-Life 1, that had a great storyline. The expansion packs were less interesting but could have been great. An episodic model should have worked there. Release main game, then start making new episodes that build upon the existing engine and models. In a few more years, release sequel with revamped engine, keep building on the storyline.

I've been a fan of the RPG formula for years while not liking most of the RPG's I've seen. When I really like the storyline in the game, it's fantastic fun to keep playing. When the storyline sucks, why bother? I found Betrayal at Krondor to be engaging. (Yeah, I go way back.) Oblivion had great graphics but a snoozer storyline. Two Worlds had graphics that would have been amazing years ago but had crappy acting, crappy writing, and was a worthless experience.

DLC will have to vary depending on the kind of game. Strategy games typically don't have stories but could have accessories sold out the wazoo, just like pencil and paper games. Story-driven games should be able to keep selling more content so long as they deliver on the storytelling. But we'll likely see all of this gamed for the highest return for least effort.

Go fuck yourself, Pete (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27569575)

Here's the guy who's destroying that company. How about you do your job and listen to your customers every now and then? Let's have a look at what your customers are saying about your product:

"If you want to send a message to BethSoft, bellyaching about it will do little. The best way to make them take notice is to vow not to buy any DLC. If they break and don't fix one of the main features advertised for the game, one that is noted prominently as such on the back of the box, why should we buy more of their stuff?"

http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=973957 [bethsoft.com]

It's pretty clear that Pete's idea of PR is to stonewall and try to shout down critics with more marketing BS. Till this asshole is replaced with someone who can actually do the job, I think that company is going to see a lot more long-term problems.

Translation (1)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 5 years ago | (#27570641)

Expansion packs don't sell on Live, and MS had completely controlled how we are delivering a supposedly multi-platform experience. Even though open-ended play after the ending is a feature that we promised, it will only be delivered on Microsoft's platforms, with the purchase of DLC. And after you purchase the three pieces of DLC, you will have spent almost as much as you'd spend on two huge expansions, but you'll get far less content.

At least Microsoft is happy, and we're going to pretend that our PS3 customers basically don't exist.

Re:Translation (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27572169)

Bullshit. When did Bethesda specifically promise gameplay past the ending of Fallout 3?

Re:Translation (1)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 5 years ago | (#27572217)

Dev interviews and on the forums. It came up specifically because it was a difference between FO1/FO2 and Bethesda's past titles like Morrowind and Oblivion.

I tried to get the DLC... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27572721)

... but the user interface was horrible and all I got for the trouble was angry. Alot of angry. If you intend to sell DLC, PLEASE use an easy to use system to sell it, not some impossible to navigate, hard to buy fucking MS point shit and that installs more freaking bloat on the computer.

I would actually prefer DLC before extensionpacks, but I will never ever buy anything through the unusable crap that FallOut3 uses.

Bethesda's DLC can be very worthwhile (1)

theantix (466036) | more than 5 years ago | (#27573553)

Contrary to the naysayers here, I think Bethesda has done a great job with DLC. Shivering Isles is bigger than most full $50 games (I am at 120 hours and counting), well worth the price to add more depth even to a ludicrously huge game like Oblivion (over 480 hours for me).

Likewise, when you consider other games Fallout 3 was a bargain when you consider cost, entertainment value, and time. Even more so compared to other mainstream forms of entertainment. If they'd release any of the Fallout3 DLC for the PS3 I'd buy some in a heartbeat, fully expecting them to be worthwhile as well.

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