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Swedish ISP Deletes Customer ID Info

ScuttleMonkey posted more than 5 years ago | from the putting-tread-on-the-slippery-slope dept.

The Courts 177

NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "A Swedish internet service provider, Bahnhof, has begun deleting customer identification information in order to prevent it from being used as evidence against its customers under Sweden's new legislation against copyright infringement via peer-to-peer file sharing. According to this report on 'The Local,' it is entirely legal for it to do so. The company's CEO, Jon Karlung, is identified as 'a vociferous opponent of the measures that came into force on April 1st,' and is quoted saying that he is determined to protect the company's clients, and that 'It's about the freedom to choose, and the law makes it possible to retain details. We're not acting in breach of IPRED; we're following the law and choosing to destroy the details.'"

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Wow (5, Insightful)

Spazztastic (814296) | more than 5 years ago | (#27615823)

Buy the guy who made that decision a beer. Kudos, Bahnhof.

Re:Wow (5, Insightful)

Aladrin (926209) | more than 5 years ago | (#27615885)

While I love this decision also, I find it sad that we now applaud people who want to take care of their customers... Didn't that used to be a given?

Re:Wow (2, Insightful)

TheGratefulNet (143330) | more than 5 years ago | (#27615933)

find it sad that we now applaud people who want to take care of their customers..

modern age: 2 kinds of 'customers':

- the ones that pay the bills by buying your products or services
- the other kind that shows up with as a band of thugs bearing guns and badges

the first one you can abuse and refuse. the 2nd one, well, not so much.

welcome to the brave new world.

Re:Wow (1, Offtopic)

Jaysyn (203771) | more than 5 years ago | (#27616201)

Hell yeah, where do I get my soma!?!

:D

Re:Wow (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27616901)

Down the off-license like everyone does right now?

Re:Wow (1)

Jaysyn (203771) | more than 5 years ago | (#27617107)

Please read Brave New World & get back to me.

Re:Wow (5, Funny)

cloudkiller (877302) | more than 5 years ago | (#27617287)

can i get a link to the torrent plz?

Re:Wow (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27617419)

Audio book [thepiratebay.org] , movie [thepiratebay.org] or are you capable of reading [thepiratebay.org] ?

Re:Wow (1)

sexconker (1179573) | more than 5 years ago | (#27617875)

Between soma and orgy-porgy, I don't think it would be too bad.

It's the transition that would suck.

Re:Wow (1)

XPeter (1429763) | more than 5 years ago | (#27615963)

Businesses that actually work for their customers and not for money? When did that happen?

Re:Wow (2, Insightful)

spoilsportmotors (1251392) | more than 5 years ago | (#27616767)

Case in point: working for money and customer support are not mutually exclusive.
Watch for people asking where to sign up...

Re:Wow (2, Interesting)

prozaker (1261190) | more than 5 years ago | (#27617129)

truth.
that move will prolly get his ISP more customers, and if more customers = more moneys .

ez

1. destroy customer information
2. get more customers signed up because of that.
3. ???
4. Profit

Re:Wow (1)

cloudkiller (877302) | more than 5 years ago | (#27617327)

what actually is happening in the ??? part of that statement?

Re:Wow (1)

freemywrld (821105) | more than 5 years ago | (#27617507)

Panty raids

Re:Wow (1)

John Whitley (6067) | more than 5 years ago | (#27616699)

Didn't that used to be a given?

No. Only in some romanticized version of the past.

Re:Wow (5, Interesting)

Samschnooks (1415697) | more than 5 years ago | (#27616911)

While I love this decision also, I find it sad that we now applaud people who want to take care of their customers... Didn't that used to be a given?

Speaking as someone that handles consumer's problems - you are correct. There's nothing I hate more than hearing "Sorry for your inconvenience." - especially from airline employees!

Oh yeah! How about, the next time you're on strike and bitching about how you're not making enough, I walk up to you and say, "Sorry about the inconvenience!"

Here's the thing, with this shitty economy, companies are seeing the light! Amen! They're paying attention to customers. Just walk into a Home Depot now. I got asked 4 times if I found what I'm looking for! Now, they're pissing me off for being so helpful. Talk about the pendulum swinging!

P.S. To you Aladrin: I see that big orange ball by your userID. For what it's worth, whatever I said, I meant nothing personal, but I stand by my opinions. I take responsibility for what I've said that has offended you. Judge me as you will.

Re:Wow (0, Troll)

roguetrick (1147853) | more than 5 years ago | (#27617195)

Dear god aren't you just a secure little consumer.

Re:Wow (1)

Samschnooks (1415697) | more than 5 years ago | (#27617345)

Yep, pretty much. What's your point?

Re:Wow (1)

JohnnyKrisma (593145) | more than 5 years ago | (#27617225)

Not really, Herbert Yardley's "Black Chamber" had agreements with all the telegra(m|ph) companies to provide copies of the traffic to them in the 1920s. Only the scale is different. Plus ca change...

Re:Wow (3, Insightful)

TheGratefulNet (143330) | more than 5 years ago | (#27615891)

I'll buy an ACCOUNT on his server. even though I don't live anywhere near there.

this guy IS a hero!

Re:Wow (3)

XPeter (1429763) | more than 5 years ago | (#27615893)

Make it two. That guy definitely has some balls. If only the rest of the ISP's thought like them...

Re:Wow (5, Informative)

Sporkinum (655143) | more than 5 years ago | (#27615905)

Those were the guys with the James Bond villain data center. Just from watching the video, you get the impression they are a good group of nerds.

Re:Wow (5, Insightful)

Jugalator (259273) | more than 5 years ago | (#27617451)

Actually, that, combined with this, has made me consider a switch from Bredbandsbolaget (a major Sweidsh ISP) to them. They have pretty decent pricing too, and I have no problems at all with BBB -- rather to the contrary. But it would simply feel good to be an ISP customer where the CEO shared my ideals. :-) And know that they at least try to protect the privacy of their customers. That's so little of a given these days that it's scary.

Re:Wow (5, Insightful)

MozeeToby (1163751) | more than 5 years ago | (#27615967)

Better yet, if you live in Sweden move your Internet connection over to his ISP. This is a very rare chance to financially support someone who is trying to protect your privacy while having little net cost for yourself.

Re:Wow (5, Interesting)

J Isaksson (721660) | more than 5 years ago | (#27616679)

I don't actually fileshare, but Bahnhof, you have my support and the day you support e-faktura (electronic bills & payment) I'll support you with my business too. /Actual Swede

Re:Wow (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27616921)

So you will only support them if they also don't kill trees? Picky picky.

This guy is a hero (5, Insightful)

BadAnalogyGuy (945258) | more than 5 years ago | (#27615877)

And sometimes heroes get arrested and thrown in jail for obstructing justice.

Re:This guy is a hero (4, Interesting)

AmiMoJo (196126) | more than 5 years ago | (#27616449)

Deleting all non-essential personal data sounds like a good way to limit the possibility of having the data stolen and used for identity fraud. That sounds like a pretty compelling argument.

In fact, here in the UK, data protection laws require each piece of information kept to be justified. If they rules on justification were tightened up...

I'd love to know how they can bill people without even knowing their name though. It would seem to rule out credit cards.

Re:This guy is a hero (2, Informative)

InsaneProcessor (869563) | more than 5 years ago | (#27616547)

You can bill them for the connections without recording the IP or how they are connected.

Re:This guy is a hero (5, Informative)

Andy Dodd (701) | more than 5 years ago | (#27616919)

You don't need DHCP server logs for billing purposes.

You do need them for hunting file sharers.

Re:This guy is a hero (5, Informative)

greed (112493) | more than 5 years ago | (#27616997)

Heck, if you sell uncapped, un-metered always-on connectivity, you don't need any logs at all. You need to set up a user name and password, or authorize a MAC address, or energize a particular port on a switch, or something. But it doesn't _matter_ if it ever gets used... the bills are because "you signed up and the month has ended." So you don't need to log it; you just need a way of turning it on when someone starts paying, and off when they stop.

Re:This guy is a hero (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27617841)

How about ability to track down child porn dealers? Or other crime (eg. money laundering, theft, etc)?

Or how about just tracking down spammers and the minions?

Deleting DHCP logs on a whim like that is similar to running around naked because you don't like that all clothes have one of these itchy tags in them.

Re:This guy is a hero (2, Interesting)

Kjella (173770) | more than 5 years ago | (#27616983)

I'd love to know how they can bill people without even knowing their name though. It would seem to rule out credit cards.

Provide service but don't keep DHCP logs? Pretty much all broadband in Sweden is unmetered, so there's no need to keep any traffic details at all.

Re:This guy is a hero (1)

meyekul (1204876) | more than 5 years ago | (#27617221)

You don't need the name to use a credit card. When you go through the drive thru at a fast food restaurant and pay with a card do they ask for your name? Sure its printed on the card, but they don't record it, they just swipe the card and hand it back. The only time you need more information than the number and exp. date is if the customer disputes the charges and you need to provide proof that they made a purchase. If you have a monthly contract with an ISP, there's not much you can dispute anyway, so I think this is a wonderful idea for all parties involved (except IPRED).

Re:This guy is a hero (1)

xaxa (988988) | more than 5 years ago | (#27617941)

Your name is also stored in the magnetic stripe.

Re:This guy is a hero (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27617239)

Here in the UK, data protection laws require each piece of information kept to be justified.

But data retention laws require each piece of information to be kept.

Guess which one the government enforces more rigorously? Our country is fucking awful.

Re:This guy is a hero (1)

Thaelon (250687) | more than 5 years ago | (#27617285)

If the ISP is getting paid and the customer isn't complaining, the business relationship could be said to be satisfactorily established to the satisfaction of both parties.

There's no legal need to tie usage information from IT to customer information from billing.

Re:This guy is a hero (1)

Culture20 (968837) | more than 5 years ago | (#27617489)

If they don't get a wad of cash with an account number attached, then they cut off service for that account. Doesn't matter who pays, so long as the account number is valid. Maybe some people could pay with credit cards, but they just pay for a different account each month (maybe theirs, maybe not). No need for bills, although it leaves the customer with no recourse if they cut off service illegitimately.

Re:This guy is a hero (1)

number11 (129686) | more than 5 years ago | (#27617821)

I'd love to know how they can bill people without even knowing their name though.

The headline is a little deceptive. It sounds like what's actually going on is that they don't retain logs. From a comment to the article:

To clarify, we (Bahnhof) have not "begun deleting information" of any kind, we have always discarded this sort of informationcouplings in the earliest stage possible in our ongoing efforts to provide iNTeGriTY-marked(swedish language ahead) broadband for our customers.

Re:This guy is a hero (1)

moon3 (1530265) | more than 5 years ago | (#27616545)

and your grand mother might click a smiley somewhere, get spamming trojan or worse **** and get thrown in jail too...

Just wait until these laws creep Stateside, that would be fun.

Re:This guy is a hero (4, Informative)

Pinckney (1098477) | more than 5 years ago | (#27616769)

He'll probably be ok. From the article:

Stefan Johansson, deputy director at the Swedish justice ministry, confirmed that Bahnhof was not breaking the law by choosing to destroy IP address details.
"The IPRED regulations do not entail any obligation of this kind. They are only concerned with the retrieval of existing information," he said.

Re:This guy is a hero (2, Insightful)

JohnnyKrisma (593145) | more than 5 years ago | (#27617271)

I doubt that could be the actual charge. Obstructing justice usually means there's an ongoing case with actual defendants. This is more like obstructing potential justice... or witch hunts.

I hope... (5, Insightful)

Narnie (1349029) | more than 5 years ago | (#27615889)

I hope this won't be like what happens in the US where the company deletes data, but when pressured by the courts, they happen to recover a backup.

Re:I hope... (5, Interesting)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | more than 5 years ago | (#27617567)

I hope this won't be like what happens in the US where the company deletes data, but when pressured by the courts, they happen to recover a backup.

It's worked out GREAT for libraries in the US. The PATRIOT act requires that libraries give up book borrowing records without even a warrant. So within a year or two pretty much all of the common library management software packages were updated to delete all record of who/where/when/what was borrowed as soon as the book is returned. Few people would ever guess it, but most librarians are almost militant about patron privacy.

Wow, I wish I could change to them (3, Interesting)

Dan667 (564390) | more than 5 years ago | (#27615913)

They take care of their customers and can still run after a nuclear war. (and you know some guy in there is doing the maniacal laugh every once in a while) http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2009/04/15/inside-the-james-bond-villain-data-center/ [datacenterknowledge.com]

Re:Wow, I wish I could change to them (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27616913)

The funny thing about everyone and the whole "james bond data center" thing... I posted links to InfoBunker http://www.infobunker.com last year. I guess foreigners care more about movie hype than actually, you know, putting a data center in a Cold War era ex-military command nuclear fallout bunker.

I'm also pretty sure I'd rather have my data at Infobunker rather than James Bond Data Center, seeing as the facilities are up to US Federal Government standards and all (like: Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) shielding to military standards, Three-foot thick reinforced concrete all-subterranean construction, Designed to survive a 20-megaton nuclear blast from 2.5 miles, Six day diesel fuel reserve, 17,000 gallon freshwater reserve tank, All critical equipment shock-mounted on isolation pads, Nuclear/Biological/Chemical (NBC) air filtration, etc)...
.

Re:Wow, I wish I could change to them (1)

mundanetechnomancer (1343739) | more than 5 years ago | (#27617291)

Their data center IS "a data center in a Cold War era ex-military command nuclear fallout bunker." It's also been themed to look like an evil villain's lair. They went the extra step to make it REALLY cool, not just reusing an old military building.

Re:Wow, I wish I could change to them (1)

Dan667 (564390) | more than 5 years ago | (#27617417)

I am a US citizen and I care more about my privacy than most US ISP's. I would sign up for Bahnhof in a flash, I hope they expand worldwide.

Re:Wow, I wish I could change to them (1)

Firehed (942385) | more than 5 years ago | (#27617903)

Aside from the Bond datacenter fulfilling those requirements (give or take), chances are that if they're a legitimate concern then you've got other more pressing issues to deal with. Such as your impending vaporization.

Judging by the recent trial of TPB (5, Interesting)

vivaoporto (1064484) | more than 5 years ago | (#27615915)

Judging by the recent trial of TPB, following the letter of the law in Sweden is not enough to defend yourself if the case ends up in court.

Re:Judging by the recent trial of TPB (2)

castironpigeon (1056188) | more than 5 years ago | (#27616407)

Judging by the recent trial of TPB, following the letter of the law in Sweden is not enough to defend yourself if the case ends up in court.

TPB's trial is the norm rather than the exception. If you think the letter of the law is enough to keep you safe in court try getting out of a traffic ticket where you know you're in the right. This applies in any country.

Re:Judging by the recent trial of TPB (1)

rthille (8526) | more than 5 years ago | (#27617161)

I got out of a traffic ticket, and I was guilty. I hired flesh-eating bacteria to infect the leg of the officer so he couldn't show up in court. Ok, I'm making up the 'hired' part, but flesh-eating bacteria is why my ticket got thrown out. (I think I would have won anyway, because the signal was defective, but it really was red when I went thru it...)

Agreed. (5, Funny)

A. B3ttik (1344591) | more than 5 years ago | (#27615917)

The company's CEO, Jon Karlung, is identified as 'a vociferous opponent of the measures that came into force on April 1st'

I'm not a fan of the new slashdot achievement system, either.

That's it... (2, Insightful)

Chabo (880571) | more than 5 years ago | (#27615929)

I'm moving to Sweden.

Anyone want to hire me?

Re:That's it... (1)

Goateee (1415809) | more than 5 years ago | (#27616193)

If you would consider moving because of Bahnhof, perheps they would value your motivation.

Re:That's it... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27616533)

Do you have a GIGANTIC COCK? I hear they make a LOT of Euro-Porn in Sweden.

Another law (5, Informative)

drstock (621360) | more than 5 years ago | (#27616035)

They are actually claiming to follow another law from 2003 called the Swedish Electronic Communications law. It states that traffic information should be deleted or anonymized when it is no longer needed to transmit the electronic message.

Try that in the Americas... (4, Insightful)

DarrenBaker (322210) | more than 5 years ago | (#27616061)

... and you'll be charged with destruction of evidence, and obstruction of justice, and almost assuredly, they'll think you complicit, because silence = guilt here.

Re:Try that in the Americas... (1)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | more than 5 years ago | (#27616117)

It isn't that bad yet, but it will be if they pass that stupid law about archiving data.

But I don't think they will. Too much hassle for the ISPs.

One Solution (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 5 years ago | (#27616281)

Offer prepaid internet access. It could be cost-effective for a new player in either a densely populated area without high-rises, or in the boonies using WiFi and clever antennae.

The greatest ISP in the world (1)

Wireless Joe (604314) | more than 5 years ago | (#27616101)

Even if the copyright police came, they'd have a hard time breaking in to the coolest Bond villain data center in the world [gizmodo.com] .

Call me suspicious but... (1)

Zapotek (1032314) | more than 5 years ago | (#27616149)

...this could be a publicity stunt.
Nobody cares though WHY they're doing it as long as they are ACTUALLY doing it.
Anyways, Kudos to Bahnhof!

Destruction of evidence... (1)

mi (197448) | more than 5 years ago | (#27616189)

There is a fine line between merely caring for your customers and helping them get away with wrongs (be that wrong a crime [telegraph.co.uk] or just a civil offense).

It is surprising, that it is legal, and they may be mistaken too — The Pirate Bay crew was just sentenced to a year in jail, however long them claimed, they did "nothing wrong".

Re:Destruction of evidence... (2, Informative)

mea37 (1201159) | more than 5 years ago | (#27616623)

I suppose I don't know how it is in Sweden, but I beileve in America for there to be 'destruction of evidence', the destruction has to occur in the context of an actual investigation.

In fact, this is why companies have "data retention" policies (which typically have more to do with which data to destroy than which to retain) -- when an investigation does come up, if you already don't have the information and it was destroyed in accordance with standing company policy, then there is normally no recourse against you.

That's what I'd say this ISP is doing -- adjusting its data retention policies. Sure, it's explicitely doing it in anticipation that the information might otherwise be evidence -- that's what data retention policies are about. This is maybe more specific since they're concerned about one law in particular, and you can agree or disagree with their moral position, but it's not destruction of evidence.

When a legal jurisdiction decides certain information needs to be around for potential investigations, they enact laws that require records of that particular information to be kept for some period of time. Will such a law follow WRT Swedish ISP customer recorsd? We'll see...

Re:Destruction of evidence... (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 5 years ago | (#27616915)

In fact, this is why companies have "data retention" policies (which typically have more to do with which data to destroy than which to retain)

That's what Sarbanes-Oxley was about: to make companies start retaining data on purpose. Previously companies attempted to walk the line between destroying everything that could be used against them, and keeping anything that could ever be useful. Now they have a third issue to worry about: legal compliance with data-retention laws.

A law requiring connection of users to addresses is going to be technically unworkable, so if it happens it's a sign that it's time to run for the hills. Or at least another country. Or, you know, your elected representatives, with torch and/or pitchfork in hand.

Re:Destruction of evidence... (1, Insightful)

hesaigo999ca (786966) | more than 5 years ago | (#27616961)

They did nothing wrong, you were the one that did when you decided to torrent a file, not them, they did not twist your arm did they. If i build something and you use it for something of an evil nature, then who is the wrong one here?

Karlung = cool (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27616227)

Here's a funny video with Jon Karlung in his super villain lair :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwlATf9xse4

Databases may require a license in .SE (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27616351)

Last time we checked, Sweden's Computer [DB] Law required anyone, who creates a database of other individuals' details to get a license & comply with certain restrictions on use, etc.

This ISP could argue they don't want to violate that or a related law (or, possibly, that they don't want to have a license, so they dump the data on individuals' usage, etc.

in case of an attack on the datacenter (4, Funny)

roman_mir (125474) | more than 5 years ago | (#27616379)

Well, these guys have a nuclear bunker for a data-center [datacenterknowledge.com] , they probably think that even if the government comes and attacks them, they can just ride it out inside. They'll probably survive even if US decides to blast them with a nuke (I wonder what the rest of the world would think of the USA if that happened though - US blasting an entrance into a datacenter with a thermo-nuclear weapon in a populated Swedish area. Oh well, just pretend there are WMDs in there and anything would go...

Re:in case of an attack on the datacenter (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27616575)

Oh well, just pretend there are WMDs in there and anything would go...

Weapons for Media Distribution?

New Swedish Data Retension Law (5, Insightful)

IanHurst (979275) | more than 5 years ago | (#27616453)

in 3... 2... 1...

Re:New Swedish Data Retension Law (3, Funny)

MyLongNickName (822545) | more than 5 years ago | (#27616475)

New Swedish Data Retension Law

I thought most backup systems did this to the tapes automatically...

Re:New Swedish Data Retension Law (1)

IanHurst (979275) | more than 5 years ago | (#27616657)

Your reply went [whoosh] over my head ;)

Re:New Swedish Data Retension Lawl (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27616721)

your response appears as "New Swedish Data Retension Lawl" when shortened

also, it's retention :-p

Re:New Swedish Data Retension Lawl (5, Funny)

IanHurst (979275) | more than 5 years ago | (#27616853)

Oh, fuck me, that's embarrassing. And now it's +5 Insightful. I love the spotlight!

Re:New Swedish Data Retension Lawl (1)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | more than 5 years ago | (#27617683)

Oh, fuck me, that's embarrassing. And now it's +5 Insightful. I love the spotlight!

Its a highly appropriate grammar mix-up - their would indeed be a "retensioning" as in tightening down the screws.

I used to know a guy who made those kinds of ontopic grammatical errors all the time. I would really like to know if there is a name for them - kind of like mondegreen.

Re:New Swedish Data Retension Law (1)

Kjella (173770) | more than 5 years ago | (#27617213)

New Swedish Data Retension Law

Actually more like EU in 2009, 2008, 2007, 2006 - Directive 2006/24/EC. They'll just bitch Sweden into not ignoring it anymore and you'll have a minimum of six month mandatory logging.

Re:New Swedish Data Retension Law (1)

Reziac (43301) | more than 5 years ago | (#27617297)

I can't help wondering if you're referring to the DATA, or to the LAW...

sex With a taco (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27616487)

To yet a8other

Bahnhof?? (0, Offtopic)

Timosch (1212482) | more than 5 years ago | (#27616605)

Wtf? Their name means "railway station" in German...

Re:Bahnhof?? (1)

Hinhule (811436) | more than 5 years ago | (#27617521)

Their original slogan was "Bahnhof - The station on infobahn."

Re:Bahnhof?? (1)

Erikderzweite (1146485) | more than 5 years ago | (#27617767)

So Bahnhof means "railway station" in Swedish too?

In next month's news... (5, Insightful)

javakah (932230) | more than 5 years ago | (#27616609)

Preview of next months news:

Swedish authorities discover that ISPs deleting cutomer ID info has led to them being unable to determine the ID of file sharers, but also child pornographers, terrorists, people threatening suicide, etc.

New laws will be up for debate trying to outlaw deleting this kind of customer ID info, with privacy groups outraged.

(Not advocating anything here, just figuring this is where this is going.)

Re:In next month's news... (2, Insightful)

Archangel Michael (180766) | more than 5 years ago | (#27616925)

Welcome to the world of Government intrusion into every aspect of our lives.

The camel is in the tent. The Elephant is in the living room. We are sliding down the slippery slope. The Frog in the pan is getting well done.

The problem is, one cannot have privacy, if the government controls everything, because they will claim a need to know.

And how many of you people want government run health care? You think the government will want to keep your health info private?

Progressives want what they want, until it is too late to realize that what they want is contrary to freedom. One cannot have freedom while being compelled by threat of force to do ANYTHING.

Re:In next month's news... (1)

Andy Dodd (701) | more than 5 years ago | (#27616949)

The linked article already talks about this. Data retention laws for antiterrorism purposes are already going through the legislative pipeline in Europe apparently.

Re:In next month's news... (1)

Fulcrum of Evil (560260) | more than 5 years ago | (#27617049)

Swedish authorities discover that ISPs deleting cutomer ID info has led to them being unable to determine the ID of file sharers, but also child pornographers

Mostly teenagers these days.

terrorists

What terrorists? The ones you need to worry about don't use the internet.

people threatening suicide, etc.

How is that an ISP's business at all?

I talked to one of them (3, Informative)

Andtalath (1074376) | more than 5 years ago | (#27616625)

They use dynamic IP-addresses and do not refresh them unless there's good reason.
You can choose to renew your IP address any time you choose though.

It's a really neat system and I really hope the data storage directive fails and that I can switch to them.
Cause they are awesome.

Statement by Bahnhof (5, Informative)

NewYorkCountryLawyer (912032) | more than 5 years ago | (#27616635)

After I'd submitted the article, I was contacted by a spokesman for Bahnhof who advised me that they hadn't just "begun" deleting the customer linkage information, that they have been doing it all along. So the report in "The Local" was not exactly accurate.

VPN service (1)

L4t3r4lu5 (1216702) | more than 5 years ago | (#27616973)

Unfortunately I can't read Swedish. Anyone know if they offer VPN service?

Good move.. (1)

powerslave12r (1389937) | more than 5 years ago | (#27617125)

Apart from the obvious heroism, there's that business angle, where everyone who wants to use p2p will want to shift to this ISP. Instant customer base boost.

Another infrastructure provider bytes the dust (0)

Lousewort Logger (908808) | more than 5 years ago | (#27617151)

The only reason TPB lost is because their lawyers suck.

Seriously.

All they did is to provide an infrastructure for file sharing. There is nothing wrong with sharing files. It only becomes illegal once criminals use an infrastructure to share copyrighted material.

Just so, this ISP is guilty of providing an infrastructure that criminals might use. Just like the municipality provides roads for bank robbers to drive over. The whole internet is guilty of the same!

Deleting customer records though, is the same as were someone at the traffic department to suddenly start wiping tape recordings from CCTV cameras in order to protect criminals. This is, IMHO way more criminal than what TPB did.

One might argue that TPB did nothing to prevent copyright theft on behalf of the copyright holders. They might have been more conscientious about removing links to known copyrighted songs or videos for example. On the other hand, it may equally be argued that they are a third party to the theft, and preventing such theft was not their responsibility.

At least they did not destroy records- there were none to destroy

- The Louse

Re:Another infrastructure provider bytes the dust (1, Troll)

Hinhule (811436) | more than 5 years ago | (#27617679)

The reason TPB lost was because the "jury" doesn't know how to interpret the law in this case. It has to go all the way to swedish supreme court to get a sensible outcome.
As it is now murderers get lower punishment than these guys got in sweden.
Don't expect this to end for a couple of years yet.

More to the point, Bahnhof is following a law from 2003 which "states that traffic information should be deleted or anonymized when it is no longer needed to transmit the electronic message." -drstock

A new law is coming which requires ISPs to retain info for x months fairly soon though.

US Libraries/Patriot Act (4, Interesting)

TrevorB (57780) | more than 5 years ago | (#27617379)

US Libraries started doing something similar after the passing of the Patriot Act: deleting customer's borrowing history so that their information couldn't be subpoenaed for the data by the government.

Actually, I think this guy is legally in the wrong (3, Insightful)

Xest (935314) | more than 5 years ago | (#27617383)

A fairly recent round of laws to come into play for all EU member states specifies that data like this must be retained for 6months.

But fuck the legality of it, he may be in the wrong legally, but he's one of the few ISPs in the right morally. It's just a shame more wont stand up across the industry and do this.

I find it odd that the EU recognises that storing people's DNA on a DNA database when they're innocent and haven't been convicted of any crime is clearly wrong, but that on the flip side of it they support the storage of what people did and where on the internet.... even if people are innocent and haven't been convicted of any crime.

It's just a shame they don't understand technology and the implications of their decisions related to it as well as they do real world justice.

Re:Actually, I think this guy is legally in the wr (1)

Dorkmaster Flek (1013045) | more than 5 years ago | (#27617725)

It may be some kind of "requirement" for EU member states, but does the EU override the actual laws of Sweden, which he is following? I have a feeling that only Sweden itself can impose its laws on him. At the very least, he seems willing to find out.

Summary Got it Wrong (5, Informative)

Nom du Keyboard (633989) | more than 5 years ago | (#27617413)

Summary got it wrong - AGAIN! They haven't started deleting logs, they've been doing it that way since 1994. This story has been out for a couple days and somehow - in typical Internet fashion - one person got it wrong and everyone else has copied the wrong data. They never saved this data from the beginning because they didn't have to. It's only mentioned now that they're continuing to do what they've done all alone, not that the suddenly started doing something different.

James bond data centre (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27617643)

He's also the CEO of that amazing James Bond Villan style data centre. Forward thinking all around I guess.

Oops (0, Offtopic)

xevocius (513222) | more than 5 years ago | (#27617721)

I ACCIDENTALLY THE WHOLE LOG

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