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Copyright Lobby Targets "Pirate Bay For Books"

samzenpus posted more than 5 years ago | from the what-about-the-library dept.

Books 356

An anonymous reader writes "TTVK, a Finnish national copyright lobby, is threatening a book rental service called Bookabooka for allegedly running the 'Pirate Bay for Books.' Bookabooka however does not offer a torrent tracker service, nor does it enable a user in any way to download eBooks; it simply provides a place for book owners to rent textbooks to each other via the traditional mail service. It is mandatory that all textbooks must be originals. The service is used by a lot of School and University students, and it does not handle the shipping or returns of the textbooks. Nevertheless, the Finnish book publishers' association (Suomen Kustannusyhdistys) is convinced the service is breaching the copyright laws and threatening their business. TTVK has given Bookabooka until Friday to cease operations or face a lawsuit. Bookabooka's founders have vowed to keep the service online and ignore the threat."

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Well. (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27684433)

Good. Fucking pirates.

Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland? (3, Interesting)

CRCulver (715279) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684435)

Speaking as a student at the University of Helsinki, nearly all textbooks I need are offered by one of the libraries, who keeps a number of copies of each textbook around so that students can take them out, do the course, and then return them at the end of the semester. Until I read this, I never imagined that university students in this country ever have a hard time getting access to textbooks and would need some kind of outside service like that.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland? (4, Insightful)

Sockatume (732728) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684485)

Unfortunately it varies for entirely predictable reasons. At my UK university, while there are plenty of postgraduate or specialist texts compared to demand, there are usually at most three copies of anything, which is insufficient for undergraduate classes in the hundreds. Therefore year after year there's a stack of new editions of the basic texts in the book shop which are eagerly snapped up. I imagine the publishers wouldn't be happy if the university bought 200 of the current edition every five years.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland? (1)

fork_daemon (1122915) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684537)

In My College in the UK, the Computer section in the Library was very very very small as compared to any other courses and the books which are commonly visible in a Computer Scince section like Computer Networks by A. Tannenbaum were missing. All I could see were "For Dummies" Series or other crap teaching Office Software.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland? (2, Interesting)

ionix5891 (1228718) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684699)

Erm

no one uses this site

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/bookabooka.fi [alexa.com]

this is a non story

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland? (4, Insightful)

TheP4st (1164315) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684737)

Erm

no one uses this site

Just wait for the Streisand effect to kick in. ;-)

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland? (-1, Offtopic)

ionix5891 (1228718) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684805)

flamebait?

jebus thats what one gets moded for pointing out facts?

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland? (5, Insightful)

marsu_k (701360) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684885)

Or maybe Finns on average are smart enough not to install Alexa Toolbar? Anyway, the service is quite new, and before this incident relatively unknown. At least I had never heard of it until this incident, and same applies to several people who discussed this on Helsingin Sanomat website (many of which noted they shall be using the service as text book prices are not reasonable for majority of students).

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland? (2, Interesting)

Joutsa (267330) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684977)

Anyway, the service is quite new, and before this incident relatively unknown. At least I had never heard of it until this incident, and same applies to several people who discussed this on Helsingin Sanomat website (many of which noted they shall be using the service as text book prices are not reasonable for majority of students).

Interesting. At my university (TKK) used textbooks have been traded on the local news server at least since early 1990s. My first reaction was "Why would anybody pay to use a service that already has a better free alternative?". I guess the news are not part of internet.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland? (2, Interesting)

linzeal (197905) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684733)

Who goes to the library anymore. I download 80% of the textbooks I need from Piratebay. Saves me 1000's a year.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27684721)

I'll have to disagree with you. The availability of books depends significantly on your major. The situation which you describe can be true with books which are used on courses with a few (20) students. I'll dare to say that you are in the tiny minority of university students in Finland, who can find _nearly all_ or even a significant amount of their textbooks in libraries.

Unfortunately all books in first-year studies in, for example engineering, are quite scarce in libraries. Three examples from my own university:

University physics by Young & Freedman: 9 copies, approx 100 students, price ~80e
Calculus by Robert A. Adams: 8 copies, approx 50 students, price 77e
Microelectronic circuits by Sedra & Smith: 10 copies, approx 50 students, price ~60e

So, I have no problems imagining that such a service would be needed.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland? (4, Funny)

cjfs (1253208) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684807)

Speaking as a student at the University of Helsinki, nearly all textbooks I need are offered by one of the libraries,

I don't understand how this works. If this was the case, what incentive would the professor have to require four of his books and never use them in the course?

Very strange system you guys have there.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland? (5, Interesting)

petermgreen (876956) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684969)

I don't understand how this works. If this was the case, what incentive would the professor have to require four of his books and never use them in the course?
I see americans on /. talk about this as if it's a normal thing. Maybe it is in the USA, that doesn't mean it is everywhere.

At least on my course ( electronic systems engineering at manchester in the uk ) with a combination of good handouts and a reasonable library there is little need to purchase books. I think i've purchased one textbook so far on my course (and i've nearly finished said course)

The one time i've noticed a lecturer putting one of his own books on the "reccomended books" list he made sure there were plenty of copy of copies in the library, printed a large chunk of the content for us free in the form of a handout and basically explicitly advised us not to buy it.

Very strange system you guys have there.
I have to say I think the american system which drives students into insane ammounts of debt both directly with fees and with very high other expenses is pretty strange/fucked up.

I guess it's all a matter of perspective.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27684935)

Undergrad courses might have hundreds of participants - there's not enough copies for everyone. Fortunately, at Helsinki University of Technology most courses offer material of their own that is substantial enough to complete the exercises and the exams.

Also, there is a very functional newsgroup system which people use to trade books. No need to give money to Bookabooka for the same service.

Sue me man (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27684455)

The Finnish book publishers' association (Suomen Kustannusyhdistys) the finnish translation is like "sue me man"

Re:Sue me man (1)

godfra (839112) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684567)

Suomen means "finnish".

Re:Sue me man (0, Offtopic)

Hognoxious (631665) | more than 5 years ago | (#27685055)

No shit, Sherlock?

Threatening a book renal service? (2, Insightful)

Sockatume (732728) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684457)

Talk about cruel and unusual punishment.

Don't mess with renal services... (4, Funny)

lxs (131946) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684461)

Book renal services are supposed to be very hard on the kidneys.

Re:Don't mess with renal services... (2, Insightful)

dgun (1056422) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684877)

Spell checkers have a downside.

What! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27684469)

What an awesome service. I'm subscribing.

Government intervention...again. (1)

reverendbeer (1496637) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684471)

The Finnish national copyright lobby needs to stay out of my books kidneys, dammit.

This is a corn cop (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27684479)

I am battery with the moustache of TIME!

Copyright laws redefined (5, Insightful)

tangent3 (449222) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684483)

If I do not get any money, you are in breach of copyright laws.

Wait... (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27684493)

I was about to say that books usually have a "do not rent" clause in the legal jargon on the inside, but I've just flicked through four of my uni textbooks and not one of them said it.

Assuming this is the same for the books being rented out, they're trying to stop a technically-not-illegal service from encouraging people doing something perfectly legal.

Eh?

Re:Wait... (0)

hummassa (157160) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684557)

Books and even DVDs cannot be "do-not-rent" if you BUY them. It's the "first sale doctrine" -- you bought it, it's yours! You can lend, rent and sell them, at your hearts will.

Re:Wait... (5, Insightful)

rednuhter (516649) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684673)

Books and even DVDs cannot be "do-not-rent" if you BUY them. It's the "first sale doctrine" -- you bought it, it's yours! You can lend, rent and sell them, at your hearts will.
In what country/ies ?
We are talking about Finland here

Re:Wait... (1)

Philip_the_physicist (1536015) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684991)

IANAL.

I am given to understand that under European law an EULA contained inside the product (for example, the message on a DVD, or a click-through licence) is considered to be an attempt to modify the contract after it has been completed, and that for them to be legally binding, the end-user would have to sign the EULA before buying the product. Also, ISTM that the burden of proof is on the plaintiff to show that you had agreed to the EULA before you purchased the book.

Re:Wait... (2, Informative)

badfish99 (826052) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684849)

At least in my country, it's common to see "not for rental" stickers on DVDs that you buy. The media companies obtained a special clause in our copyright law that allows them to enforce this.

Books can be loaned out by libraries, because the book publishers haven't enough financial clout to get a similar law passed. And banning libraries, which have been around for many years, would cause an outcry, whereas banning DVD rentals was never noticed by the public, because there were no DVD rentals before the law was passed, because DVDs hadn't been invented.

I think that DVD rental shops have to buy special "rental" versions of DVDs, which have a much higher price than the regular ones.

Re:Wait... (5, Interesting)

jsiren (886858) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684995)

In Finland authors get compensated for library loans of their books ("kirjastokorvaus"). It's recognized that copies in public libraries account for some lost sales, so a small compensation is paid.

About DVD rentals: It seems that the rental DVD itself is no different from a purchase copy, but it comes with a "permission to rent." Should I happen to lose or destroy the disc, I would be charged something like 45 to 90 e (asked a movie rental place once). I don't know if that's the real price or if the shop has an insurance that pays for the rest - or if it's an incentive not to lose the DVD...

Re:Wait... (4, Interesting)

91degrees (207121) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684583)

But even if it did, what difference does it make?

You can't make arbitrary demands on a purchaser after the purchase. What if it said "You agree to pay the author a subscription to continue using this book after a year"?

Re:Wait... (1)

Keeper Of Keys (928206) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684837)

Sounds like cloud computing.

Re:Wait... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27684909)

Mod parent up.

Copyright law, and specifically the doctrine of first sale, limits what a publisher can or cannot ask you to do (or refrain from doing) after you bought a book, or in fact any copyrighted work.

What the publishers are trying to do here is institute EULAs for books.

Re:Wait... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27684963)

You can't make arbitrary demands on a purchaser after the purchase.

Of course you can, if those demands are part of the copyright license. Are you suggesting that if I buy a copy of Linux from RedHat I'm free to ignore the GPL, because they can't make arbitrary demands on me after the purchase? If it works for software why can't it work for books? Copyright is copyright.

Re:Wait... (2, Informative)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684983)

Are you suggesting that if I buy a copy of Linux from RedHat I'm free to ignore the GPL, because they can't make arbitrary demands on me after the purchase?

Yes, you are completely free to ignore the GPL. In fact, you will see this explained clearly in the preamble. If, however, you decide to make copies or derived works of Linux, and then distribute them, then you need a distribution license. You then have two choices, either to individually approach every single one of the Linux developers and offer to pay them for a license, or abide by the GPL.

Re:Wait... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27685047)

Yes, you are completely free to ignore the GPL.

Don't be disingenuous, I'm not completely free to ignore it if as soon as I engage in the behaviour that the GPL covers I have to abide by it.

Re:Wait... (1)

IBBoard (1128019) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684867)

Isn't that normally with the caveat of "in any cover other than the one supplied"? I used to think that charity shops were always liable to encounter problems because of the "no renting or reselling" clause until I read it and realised that the legalese included a bit more than that.

Seems Ironic (1)

WeirdJohn (1170585) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684495)

It seems ironic that a company that represents book publisher doesn't have anyone that can actually read, and that the first listed book on BookaBooka is "EU LAW: Text, Cases and Materials"!

Stupid. (5, Insightful)

haeger (85819) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684503)

This gets really stupid after a while. I mean everything you do will be a threat to someone's "business model". If I choose to walk to work then I threaten Fords model. If I choose to go the Gym instead of buying a wii-fit I'm hurting Nintendo.
Could my ISP sue me for writing a letter instead of an email?

Ridiculous is what it is.

Re:Stupid. (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27684543)

This is the USPS, and you are threatening our business model by posting an 'electronic message' in lieu of sending said message through our mail system. Please cease and desist all electronic messaging, as it could lead to the bankruptcy one of a critical US system (which is too big to fail without detriment to the economy).

Re:Stupid. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27685057)

whoops, too late!

Re:Stupid. (3, Insightful)

toyjoy (765596) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684605)

I agree with you.

The Finnish national copyright lobby should be sued just by putting this in consideration. Why shouldn't i rent something that is mine ??? Or when i buy a book i'm not really buying it but i'm only getting the possibility to read the book and put it in a shelve getting dust over the years.

I'm reading a book that were from my parents i hope that's not a crime.

Re:Stupid. (4, Insightful)

Renraku (518261) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684635)

Companies exist only because we the consumers support them.

You are not threatening someone's business model if you do not buy from them. The onus is on the company to come up with a business model that will compel you to buy from them. If they fail to do that, then that's their own fault. As long as you aren't breaking any laws.

In the end, its all about money. Buggy-whip manufactures never did have millions of dollars to waste trying to lobby to congress to outlaw cars. Nintendo doesn't have that kind of money to waste, either. Hell, even Ford didn't back in his day.

However, media companies do. Oil companies do. Banks do.

Guess who law will favor in the future?

You could very well be looking at criminal charges for not paying off your credit card bill, or at having your door kicked in by the SWAT team because you downloaded some music online.

The companies with the most power are exactly the ones that shouldn't have any.

Re:Stupid. (4, Insightful)

Creepy Crawler (680178) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684685)

Not exactly.

Once certain companies gain a certain critical mass, they are seen as "vital to the economy" and the government will bend over to them. In cases of copyrights and media companies, this means a rather unfair Media Tax.

Garbage like this also guarantees that killing them is that much tougher. Government has seen to their protection, so then govt is the thing that needs to be brought down a notch to stop the support.

Re:Stupid. (3, Insightful)

Ed Avis (5917) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684955)

The onus is on the company to come up with a business model that will compel you to buy from them.

Ugg, be careful what you wish for: DRM systems are exactly designed to 'compel' you to pay money for things which were previously your fair use rights.

The onus is on government to make a system that creates just enough artificial monopoly rights to 'promote progress in science and the useful arts', while minimizing the effect on individual liberty.

Re:Stupid. (5, Insightful)

freedom_india (780002) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684723)

If i continue to live, am a threat to the Hearse makers consortium.
If i die, am a threat to the pharma companies.
If i read, am a threat to RIAA.
If i write, am a threat to MPAA.
If a watch a movie, am a threat to Authors Guild
If i sit at home idle, am a threat to Comcast Cable.
If i browse the internet, am a threat to NY Times
So basically, everything i do or not do is a threat to some industry.

There's Always A Way (0)

Velska1 (1435341) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684821)

If you live, maybe you'll become another "reality TV" star and give lots of fodder for the tabloids.

If you die, perhaps you'll go in a big enough bang to give an idea for someone to write a blockbuster movie.

If you read, perhaps you'll find a book that infringes on someone's copyright and you can get a finders fee from a trolling lawyer.

If you write, there is always someone who kills someone in a grisly enough way for you to create a thriller script, which the MPAA will buy from you for 5 bucks, 'cause you're a nobody, and make it into at least 5 mil.

You get the drift...

Re:Stupid. (1)

IBBoard (1128019) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684883)

Could my ISP sue me for writing a letter instead of an email?

Perhaps, but the more worrying thought is that you're screwed both ways because the postal service could sue you for writing an email instead of sending a letter ;)

Smell of blood/books in the morning, etc. (5, Insightful)

BeShaMo (996745) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684521)

Somebody is smelling blood here...

The logical conclusion of all this (including that EU law that is being looked at at the moment, where you have to be able to prove ownership of all media on your laptop/mp3player when crossing the border) is that private ownership cease to exist, and only corporations can own anything, and then allow the rest of us a peak once in a while, for a fee of course.

My only comfort is that when (if) the revolution comes it will no longer be the politicians who are first against the wall, but the copyright lobbyists...

Re:Smell of blood/books in the morning, etc. (5, Informative)

redhog (15207) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684683)

The "revolution" is already here. It isn't a bloody one though, just the Pirate Party lining up for the EU parliament election the 7th of June.

We fight for your rights. We fight for a Free Internet. Vote for your local Pirate Party.

Re:Smell of blood/books in the morning, etc. (3, Insightful)

CarpetShark (865376) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684747)

Somebody is smelling blood here...

Yes, and given how corporations are lining up on one side, and how young private citizens are lining up in Sweden, that blood might well come in the form of a civil war one day.

Is this even illegal? (4, Interesting)

eyal0 (912653) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684531)

In the USA, reselling a book is totally legal. I imagine that renting one is, too. Which part of the copyright law are they accused of breaking?

Re:Is this even illegal? (4, Funny)

MichaelSmith (789609) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684597)

In the USA, reselling a book is totally legal. I imagine that renting one is, too. Which part of the copyright law are they accused of breaking?

Apparently some people actually borrow books from libraries without paying at all. Its a scandal.

Re:Is this even illegal? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27684657)

Libraries don't just buy any book in a book shop. They have specially licensed copies. They also pay various copyright associations for lending out their books.

It's similar to how the dvd's that you buy in a shop or on Amazon contain a notice that forbids renting, public performance etc.

Copyright laws do allow the owners of the exploitation rights of copyrighted works to lay down such restrictions, and to hand out different kinds of licenses to different people/organisations.

That said, the whole "Pirate Bay for Books" wolf-cry is just pathetic.

BS. (1)

thesupraman (179040) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684813)

Bullshit, I work at time for a publisher, most libraries get deep discounts, and they (and you) are very free to lend out books. Go look up first sale doctrine. Lending out or sale is NOT a restricted public performance.
Copyright certainly does NOT give publishers rights to any license they want.

Re:Is this even illegal? (1)

tg123 (1409503) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684887)

Libraries don't just buy any book in a book shop. They have specially licensed copies. They also pay various copyright associations for lending out their books.

It's similar to how the dvd's that you buy in a shop or on Amazon contain a notice that forbids renting, public performance etc.

Copyright laws do allow the owners of the exploitation rights of copyrighted works to lay down such restrictions, and to hand out different kinds of licenses to different people/organisations......................

um can you provide evidence of this for books ?

I know that this is the case with dvd's that you rent from a store but not with books.

Re:Is this even illegal? (1)

Velska1 (1435341) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684853)

Reselling a book in Finland is totally legal. There may be a point about lending/renting out books if you're not a library, which has to buy a different license. Even then all you have to do is change the term 'rental' to 'sale'.

You sell the book to your friend. It doesn't matter if you just met. There are plenty of services that work like that. Then you buy it back from him a little cheaper, because he didn't really like it. See? Actually, there are tons of second-hand book shops around that do exactly that.

Coming from an author... (5, Informative)

Max Romantschuk (132276) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684535)

There has grown up in the minds of certain groups in this country the notion that because a man or corporation has made a profit out of the public for a number of years, the government and the courts are charged with the duty of guaranteeing such profit in the future, even in the face of changing circumstances and contrary to public interest. This strange doctrine is not supported by statute or common law. Neither individuals nor corporations have any right to come into court and ask that the clock of history be stopped, or turned back.

Robert Heinlein, Life-Line (1939)
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Robert_A._Heinlein [wikiquote.org]

Re:Coming from an author... (4, Interesting)

MichaelSmith (789609) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684613)

Arthur Clarke used to say that if anybody sent him a book to sign (and send back) he would just give it to a local library. He may lose a sale by doing that but it is more likely he will gain a sale. When I was young I mainly read library books, and books borrowed from other sources. I only bought books when I had the money, which wasn't very often.

Re:Coming from an author... (1)

MadJo (674225) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684861)

Wait, he gave away someone else's property? Someone bought the book, sent it to him to have it signed by him, and instead of sending the book back, he gave it away?
That looks a lot like theft to me.

Re:Coming from an author... (1)

MichaelSmith (789609) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684903)

Wait, he gave away someone else's property? Someone bought the book, sent it to him to have it signed by him, and instead of sending the book back, he gave it away? That looks a lot like theft to me.

What are they going to do? Track him down in Sri Lanka?

Re:Coming from an author... (4, Interesting)

mspohr (589790) | more than 5 years ago | (#27685019)

When you send something to somebody in the mail, you are giving it to them. They can do anything they want with it. It is no longer your property.

This is firmly established in the US because companies used to send unsolicited merchandise to people and then demand payment. They sent it to you, you can keep it.

Re:Coming from an author... (1)

Philip_the_physicist (1536015) | more than 5 years ago | (#27685039)

Unsolicited goods: he may have to give the owner a reasonable mount of time to collect them (at the owners expense) but after that they become his to do as he wishes.

Disclaimer: IANAL, this is based on my vauge understanding of UK and Australian law, Sri Lanka may be very different.

Re:Coming from an author... (1)

AlterRNow (1215236) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684869)

Isn't that called theft?

Re:Coming from an author... (1)

jsiren (886858) | more than 5 years ago | (#27685071)

Arthur Clarke used to say that if anybody sent him a book to sign (and send back) he would just give it to a local library. He may lose a sale by doing that but it is more likely he will gain a sale.

Those who did send him books to sign must not have liked it...

When I was young I mainly read library books, and books borrowed from other sources. I only bought books when I had the money, which wasn't very often.

When I was young, the library was where I used to hang out. I didn't own many books, but I did read a lot.

Where else can we extract money ? (4, Funny)

Going_Digital (1485615) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684553)

In the latest news publishers have launched legal action against the postal service for facilitating copyright violation. It has been discovered that copyright works have been transported through the postal system and publishers say that they are entitled to a payment from the postal service as they have access to material that is not theirs. A publishers representative has said "Why should the postal service profit from delivering our material to our customers without paying a fee to support our authors. After we send it and before our customers receive it the postal service has unauthorized access to copyright material denying our customers access to it during that period. We therefore believe that the postal service should pay a royalty to cover this period".

What copy? (5, Insightful)

Moblaster (521614) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684601)

It seems to me that "copyright" refers, in the most straightforward way possible, to the "right to copy." There are no copies being made in this case. It is simple, exclusive transfer of one embodiment of a book's content, convenient embedded in the physical, tangible medium of dead tree.

No copy, no outrage.

But the lawyers are getting paid, so as usual they will entertain the self-serving legal theories of their clients with dignity and care until such time as they lose or go broke.

Re:What copy? (1)

tg123 (1409503) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684697)

It seems to me that "copyright" refers, in the most straightforward way possible, to the "right to copy.".........No copy, no outrage.

But the lawyers are getting paid, so as usual they will entertain the self-serving legal theories of their clients with dignity and care until such time as they lose or go broke.

Thats the core of the story "lawyers are getting paid" and pure greed on the part of the publishers.

 

Re:What copy? (1)

worip (1463581) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684791)

Maybe the publishers are so greedy, BECAUSE they have to pay the lawyers!

Re:What copy? (1)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 5 years ago | (#27685051)

pure greed on the part of the publishers

Please note, this is the Finnish copyright lobby, and not any publishing companies. The only time my publisher (one of the largest in the USA) has got involved in this kind of thing in relation to any of my work was when someone decided to post the PDF copy of my book to a public mailing list, and then their only involvement was to request that it be removed from the online archives.

If you Google for the title of my last book, the top link is to a site where you can download the PDF illegally (straight HTTP - no peer-to-peer needed). If the publishers were going to start going after copyright infringement, then they would start here. Instead, they are attempting to add value in other ways to discourage copyright infringement, for example by setting up services like Safari Books Online where you can, for a small subscription, read any of their catalogue online or download the PDF versions, or by adding video courses on DVD accompanying the books.

Re:What copy? (1)

funkatron (912521) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684925)

It seems to me that copyright refers to the exact opposite of the right to copy. It is the "right" not to have copies made.

If copyright meant the right to copy I would support it

Re:What copy? (1)

ciderVisor (1318765) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684931)

A book's contents, conveniently embedded in the physical, tangible medium of dead tree.

Just be careful you don't buy a swarm of Vashta Nerada [wikia.com] while you're at it.

What we need is a little DRM (3, Funny)

erroneus (253617) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684611)

We need book DRM so that only the person who bought the book can read it. We also need to prevent people from reading books aloud so that they cannot be shared in other ways. That's the REAL reason I don't read books to my 2 year old... it would be immoral!!

I have seen some greedy bastards in my day, but this really takes a new low. This is essentially a social book club!! It's not like people are making copies of books and selling them. The publishers need their asses handed to them in a BIG way.

Re:What we need is a little DRM (2, Insightful)

digitig (1056110) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684751)

We need book DRM so that only the person who bought the book can read it.

That would be the Kindle, then. I knew there had to be some reason for dedicated eBook readers.

Next will be Public Libraries (4, Insightful)

freedom_india (780002) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684625)

We gotta stop these RIAA/MPAA morons before they ruin every little thing.
Next thing these morons would change the law to outlaw public libraries. Politicians as they always are, care about the next campaign, and almighty money. So they would say to the public that terrorists used libraries to steal ideas for making bombs, and so libraries must be closed or terrorists would take over the world.
O'Reilly would jump in with a pinhead or patriot question about Paris Hilton being a pinhead for supporting libraries and Miley Cyrus as a patriot for saying libraries are dull (Jamie Foxx says that Cyrus should make a s*x tape in Library).
First of all, create a group, donate liberally to it, hire the best lobbyist and make politicians fight for you, against RIAA/MPAA. Fight fire with fire.

Re:Next will be Public Libraries (1)

tg123 (1409503) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684717)

............... Politicians as they always are, care about the next campaign, and almighty money. So they would say to the public that terrorists used libraries to steal ideas for making bombs, and so libraries must be closed or terrorists would take over the world.

dude quiet , you might give the politicians ideas.

if you really think about libraries have terror potential ........

shhhhhhhhhh

Re:Next will be Public Libraries (1)

freedom_india (780002) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684761)

Don't worry, they already did that.
In 2000 i opened a library account in Sydney, Australia at a Public Library: All i needed was a letter addressed to my home address and my name on it. I showed them my latest Telstra bill and i had my account opened in 20 mins.
FFW to 2004, in Boston USA, when i went to open an account at a public library i had to show: my passport as ID, my check book for address proof, and a letter addressed to me to show that i lived there (No, a check book is only 10 points). It took 20 mins.

Re:Next will be Public Libraries (1)

MichaelSmith (789609) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684851)

Yeah but thats in case you borrow a book on bomb manufacture and they have to report you to the ATF.

Rental (1)

mr100percent (57156) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684689)

This sounds like a mail-order library, or for those of you who are too young to remember a library, it's like Netflix for books.

This is not the first to do this, how about Bookswim [bookswim.com] in America?

the pirate bay of books? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27684693)

I dont think so

The site gets no visitors...

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/bookabooka.fi [alexa.com]

now gigapedia.com on the other hand....

First sale doctrine? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27684709)

This is neither illegal nor morally questionable.

I don't know if Finland have a first sale doctrine, but where I'm from, if you buy something it's yours and you can lend, sell or give it to whoever you want.

A system that asserts you don't have complete control over a book that you legitimately purchased is rather a frightening one. Trying to establish this sort of thing under the guise of "copyright" is becoming very fashionable, yet doesn't have a legal leg to stand on.

We need to stamp this out before it spreads.

Don't do this (3, Insightful)

Idiot with a gun (1081749) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684719)

This is such a poor plan. When you take music away from people, you take away entertainment. Take away books (especially text books), you make people dumber. And we have a problem with this already.

Re:Don't do this (1)

kaaposc (1515329) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684981)

Take away books (especially text books), you make people dumber.

Maybe that is their real goal? Dumb crowd is easier controlled.

It is not copyright infringement. (1)

bliz1985 (923307) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684731)

This reminds of an idiot in an online forum who insisted that it is illegal to lend your friend a dvd or book which you own, that only you can watch/read your dvd/book.

Most dvds state that rental is not allowed, while most books just prohibit the illegal reproduction of the book without saying that rental of book is not allowed. To prove my point that it is perfectly alright to lend your friend a dvd or book, I emailed the IPOS (Intellectual Property Office of Singapore) but instead of a reassurance that it is alright, I got a reply that told me to consult my lawyer. Nonetheless, I'm pretty sure that something is considered rental only if there is monetary gain.

Indeed this hurts the business model of the book authors and the publishing firms. In this case, there is only one physical copy of the book so it is not copyright infringement. Also, would those who use the service have bought the book in the first place? Without this service, will they eventually borrow the book from their friend's friend anyway (through word of mouth or online networking tools), go without the book, or share a book with a course mate?

If someone who has a book wants to lend it to others, it should be perfectly alright. At any point of time, the (total time of all bought books in existence)/(total time of bought books being read) is already way greater than one. Why should it be the case that we are not allowed to decrease this ratio just to ensure that authors and publishing firms can earn more? It makes better sense for mother earth if the ratio is close to one.

At the end of the day, if students do not photocopy the books in excess of what is legally permitted or do not pay the photocopying copyright fee, there is no copyright infringement. This service is just to facilitate the sharing of resources. Even if this service makes a profit through membership or advertisement, and it actually does contribute to lesser people buying books, it shouldn't be illegal. The internet makes it easier for people with similar interests to communicate and achieve their common goals, money-grubbing companies should just get over with it.

If this is illegal, so should bookcrossing, freecycle, craigslist, free giveaways, garage sales etc... In fact, I see this as a specific application of the first-sale doctrine (just that money being exchanged is 0).

Re:It is not copyright infringement. (1)

MichaelSmith (789609) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684753)

To prove my point that it is perfectly alright to lend your friend a dvd or book, I emailed the IPOS (Intellectual Property Office of Singapore)

Jesus thats brave. Maybe I should send an email to the secret service asking if it is okay to walk up to them with concealed weapons. What could possibly go wrong.

Re:It is not copyright infringement. (1)

El_Muerte_TDS (592157) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684833)

Most dvds state that rental is not allowed

The trick is not to rent DVDs, but lend it to people asking to recuperate you on diminished value due to wear and tear, and for the fact that for a short period do have to access to the item you own.

Godwin variant (3, Insightful)

xouumalperxe (815707) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684771)

Pirate Bay? What the hell does this have to do with the Pirate Bay?

Somehow, I think that, since the pirate bay guys got a bad verdict, comparing organizations to the Pirate Bay because they're screwing with your profits will become a fad. In which case, with due credit to that Godwin chap, I hereby claim ownership of Alperxe's Law: "All discussions about an organization hurting IP-based corporations will eventually devolve into the target of the discussion being compared to The Pirate Bay".

Re:Godwin variant (1)

kaaposc (1515329) | more than 5 years ago | (#27685013)

Pirate Bay? What the hell does this have to do with the Pirate Bay?

"Pirate" - it is just another new buzzword for legalizing their actions. Remember Bush's "War on terror"?

next up (1)

El_Muerte_TDS (592157) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684797)

Wiping your ass with pages from a book will also be considered copyright infringement.

Re:next up (1)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 5 years ago | (#27685059)

Well, it is creating a derived work, and in some cases a better one than the original...

The right to read (3, Insightful)

tpwch (748980) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684815)

Do we still have the right to read [gnu.org] ?

You know.. (1)

thinkpol (51932) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684829)

There is this building in my city that actually allows people to go and get the books that people want. It's crazy - you go to their website, search for a book, and then, like magic, you can use the book without paying for it. It's called a "library" and its almost like the Pirate Bay, except not at all.

Because of Internet (5, Informative)

iJusten (1198359) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684835)

TTVK:n mukaan vuokraaminen ilman kustantajien ja tekijöiden lupaa on laitonta, koska palvelu toimii internetissä, eli kuka tahansa voi käyttää sitä.

TTVK (Copyright-information and enforcement Association) says that renting without rights from publishers or writers is illegal, because the service operates over Internet, and everybody can use it. Source. [www.hs.fi]

How can you possibly argue over so eloquent argument?

Re:Because of Internet (3, Insightful)

oneirophrenos (1500619) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684975)

TTVK (Copyright-information and enforcement Association) says that renting without rights from publishers or writers is illegal, because the service operates over Internet, and everybody can use it.

That is super retarded. What about libraries? Since when could *everyone* not use them? Greedy people will think of any justification to get more money.

the oldest enemy.. (1)

Luuseens (1422579) | more than 5 years ago | (#27684865)

I say, we all go after the oldest enemy of the poor ol' copyright owners! *queue spooky music* The Libraries!! Someone should teach those copyright breaching, information sharing rat bastards a lesson!

Kill them (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27684901)

Seriously. That's what we need to do with them. No more lawsuits, or internet outrages. They are perverting our laws & trying to ruin our culture. We can't out-money them so we need to start lynching them.

What about ebay? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27684989)

HA... next thing you know, ebay is going to be in violation of copyright laws because you can "buy" books for only a penny - virtually loaning them anyway.

Now - if that is ok, then bookabooka must be ok. If not - I smell a legal loop-hole that they could take advantage of - a 'rental fee' so to speak.

Get used to it. (2, Insightful)

YouDoNotWantToKnow (1516235) | more than 5 years ago | (#27685001)

Now that the western society "wealth" generation is completely dependent on artificial scarcity, people who benefit the most from this charade will be trying very hard to protect their revenue streams. They will only fail if the "third world" manages to gather behind China's lead, emancipate itself from corporate slavery and take back what they rightfully deserve. The concept of intelectual property is flawed in surprisingly similar ways the idea of communism was. Instead of promoting well-being of the masses through supporting investment in research and creativity, it has become a tool of manipulation used by the elites.

I gave my newspaper to my friend this morning... (1)

captainpanic (1173915) | more than 5 years ago | (#27685007)

Am I going to be arrested now?

I also borrowed a book from a friend, and (although unrelated) I bought him a beer at about the same time as I got the book...

Am I going to jail now?

I believe that all these copyright trolls are trying to get a single payment (one time profit) out of this. Even they would not be so stupid to believe that this will result in a more strict policy and controls on university campus to check the owners of books.

Pesky tewowists (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27685025)

We must stand united against them tewowists! Stealing our revenues they are a danger to global peace!

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