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Hundreds of Thousands of Chinese Black-Hats

kdawson posted more than 4 years ago | from the defending-against-gnats dept.

Government 247

An anonymous reader sends us to Popular Science for a long article on the loose, uncoordinated bands of patriotic Chinese hackers that seem to be responsible for much of the cyber-trouble emerging from that nation. Quoting: "For years, the U.S. intelligence community worried that China's government was attacking our cyber-infrastructure. Now one man has discovered it's more than that: it's hundreds of thousands of everyday Chinese civilians. ... Jack Linchuan Qiu, a communications professor at the Chinese University of Hong Kong [says:] 'Chinese hackerism is not the American "hacktivism" that wants social change. It's actually very close to the state. The Chinese distinction between the private and public domains is very small.' ... According to [James Andrew Lewis, a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies], 'The government at a minimum tolerates them. Sometimes it encourages them. And sometimes it tasks them and controls them.' In the end, he says, 'it's easy for the government to turn on and hard to turn off.'"

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247 comments

Not surprising (4, Insightful)

WindBourne (631190) | more than 4 years ago | (#27700977)

The chinese are just as nationalistic as any other group. Do they like how their gov operates? I doubt it. BUT, do they love their country? Sure. Of course, telling the crackers that if they crack local systems, they will get the death penality, but if they crack Foreign systems (namely the west) and share with the gov, they will get money, has a LOT to do with this. Basically, we are still in a cold war with one side KNOWING that it is, while the other side hopes that it is not.

Re:Not surprising (4, Interesting)

Shakrai (717556) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701043)

The chinese are just as nationalistic as any other group.

Judging from some of the comments about Tibet and the reaction to the protests regarding it during the Olympics I'd say that they are even more so.

Basically, we are still in a cold war with one side KNOWING that it is, while the other side hopes that it is not.

Isn't that the truth? Secretary Gates wants to cancel the F-22 and cut our aircraft carrier fleet down so that we can focus on fighting insurgencies. That's understandable in short term but I pray to god that it doesn't bite us in the ass in the long term. I'm not real worried about insurgents altering the geopolitical balance of power. I am worried about China doing the same.

They aleady did (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#27701239)

I'm not real worried about insurgents altering the geopolitical balance of power. I am worried about China doing the same.

Simple test. Get two oil tankers. Put a Chinese flag on one, put a US flag on the other. Sail them along the Somali coast. See which one gets fired upon and which one does not.

Re:Not surprising (3, Interesting)

WindBourne (631190) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701247)

Secretary Gates wants to cancel the F-22 and cut our aircraft carrier fleet down so that we can focus on fighting insurgencies. That's understandable in short term but I pray to god that it doesn't bite us in the ass in the long term.
At this moment, we have no choice. Our budget and economy is a TOTAL disaster. Where we need to put the money is into getting this war and invasion/occupation finished. Sadly, Pakistan is shaping up to be a new mess that we will have no choice on (at least as long as they have nukes and the technology). Personally, having the F-22 cut back while we have 180 is not a big deal. BUT I would rather that we continue with the ABL program. In addition, my understanding is that he is putting a lot more money into intel-gathering. That makes sense.

Re:Not surprising (3, Insightful)

WindowlessView (703773) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701981)

In addition, my understanding is that he is putting a lot more money into intel-gathering. That makes sense.

Part of that intel gathering is, of course, the half of our recent ramp-up in cyber warfare that is less spoken about. No one thinks that in the cyber war we are only playing defense, right?

Re:Not surprising (4, Insightful)

maxume (22995) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701267)

Or you might have read comments that are coming from someone more extreme than the typical Chinese. There are plenty of wack-job nationalistic Americans, and plenty of more moderate Americans.

As far as a new cold war, who cares? China can't invade America anymore than America can invade China, and they aren't seriously rattling the nuclear saber (they would rather sell us crap than blow us up...).

China probably could find the bodies to invade the U.S., but they would have a tough time holding any territory whatsoever (unless they found a really nifty way of shifting those bodies over the Pacific ocean). The U.S. doesn't have the bodies to invade China.

I guess there is the possibility of an economic war with China, but the coal on mainland America means that we will still be able to make electricity, mitigating the impact on our quality of life, and the fact that China has 4 times the people will make it nearly impossible for the U.S. to continue to 'dominate' the world economically.

Re:Not surprising (4, Insightful)

Shakrai (717556) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701927)

China probably could find the bodies to invade the U.S

WOLVERINES!

Sorry, that was just the first image that came to mind ;) I think invading the US would be a pretty tough undertaking. Logistically it would be a nightmare -- you'd need to move men and material across the largest ocean in the World against the World's foremost naval power. Even if you could manage to do that you'd then have to defeat the American military on it's home soil and pacify the American population.

Pacifying a nation [wikipedia.org] of 32 million where a sizable portion (a majority even?) of the population supports the invaders may well prove to be impossible. How would you go about pacifying a nation of 300 million where none of the population would support the invaders and where said population is armed to the teeth and presumably willing to fight for it's freedom and independence? Then there's the matter of nuclear weapons to consider....

No, I'm not real worried about them invading us. I am worried about falling behind them in military capability and having to abandon allies and/or interests. At least when the British came apart there was another world power that was committed to democracy to take their place. Who is going to take our place? I suppose India is a possibility in the long term but they've got enough problems of their own right now. China isn't being very open about their military build-up and I find that troubling on many levels. Unless that changes I don't see any reason why we shouldn't be concerned and taking steps to ensure our own supremacy.

Re:Not surprising (5, Insightful)

magarity (164372) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701325)

Long before the US worries about Chinese military superiority there needs to be a good hard look at the very real threat of economic superiority.

The Chinese economy is still growing, albiet at a much slower pace, while the US shrank lately. And there are only the tiniest of social programs that the Chinese government spends its money on and pretty much nothing on entitlements which make up 2/3 of the US's federal budget. There is no institutionalized 'somebody owes me' mentality keeping a large number of otherwise able bodied adults out of the workforce.

China will out-produce the US in short order if things continue as they have been. Then the US will no longer be able to afford to keep up militarily much like the Soviets could no longer afford to keep up in the 80's.

Re:Not surprising (5, Insightful)

maxume (22995) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701441)

It's inevitable. If you accept that people aren't equal, the best 10% of China's workforce is larger than half of the entire United States workforce.

Throw in that it is much easier to transfer knowledge and technology than it is to create them, and any notion of keeping a lead goes right out the window, especially over the long term.

The upside is that we are quite a bit more likely to benefit from Chinese advancements than we are to be hurt by them.

Re:Not surprising (0, Flamebait)

WindBourne (631190) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701655)

The upside is that we are quite a bit more likely to benefit from Chinese advancements than we are to be hurt by them.
I wish that were true. At this time, China is gearing up for war, not defense. For example, they have announced SEVERAL space stations. The first is the one that we know about. It is to be run by the CNSA which is controlled by the PLA. HOWEVER, the PLA has announced a new space station that will be pure military only. It also appears that they will have multiples of these. What use is a space station to the PLA? Not survelence. Far better and cheaper to have remote controlled sats. The ONLY use is to hide what is going on and make it easy to change systems. It is not communications or surveylence, and human testing is going on in the project 921 (CNSA's upcoming space station).

We live in interesting times.

Re:Not surprising (1)

maxume (22995) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701705)

What do you think a (manned) military space station is useful for?

The only thing I can think of is triggering raving paranoia.

Re:Not surprising (3, Interesting)

WindBourne (631190) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701461)

Actually, China has a social security and socialized medicine. In addition, they spend a LOT more money on their internal security (trying to keep ppl in check). IIRC, They actually spend more on their civil programs than America does (in terms of what we think their budget is; we really do not know exactly WHAT they spend). And right now, they spend a LOT more money on their space program as well as military. Of course, they can afford this at this time.

The real difference is that they have their money tied to the dollar designed to drain our jobs and W allowed this. That is why China has major barriers to imports and is asking for another decade to drop them, even though they were suppose to drop them in 2002.

Re:Not surprising (3, Insightful)

Shakrai (717556) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701611)

That is why China has major barriers to imports and is asking for another decade to drop them, even though they were suppose to drop them in 2002.

I've never understood why the United States engages in "free trade" when our supposed trading partners refuse to do the same. Japan is another good example -- it's virtually impossible for American car companies to sell cars in Japan yet we've allowed them free rein to compete in our own market. WTF is wrong with that picture?

Re:Not surprising (1)

WindBourne (631190) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701701)

Well Japan does not have the trade barriers. But their are psych barriers that we must work against. In addition, the yen is openly traded with us, so that is not a problem. South Korea has more issues than does Japan. They have lots of small trade barriers and the gov STILL pushes their citizen to buy Korean.

Re:Not surprising (1)

4D6963 (933028) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701385)

We have built 135 F-22s as of now, don't you think that's enough for the time being? Besides, this "Cold War" is/will be even colder than the one with Russia : whereas the previous Cold War was ICBM rain vs ICBM rain, this one with China is ICBM rain vs ICBM rain + we depend on them because we owe them trillions + they depend on us since their economy is mainly export-based, and now more than ever they need to maintain a certain pace in their economic growth, failing that, civil unrest might get out of hand and sign the current Chinese regime's death warrant.

So keep your F-22 money, they're not likely to take on the Chinese air force anytime soon. Although I suppose wars of proxy would be doable, but right now I don't see the interest that China would have in creating a new Korea or Vietnam war.

Re:Not surprising (4, Insightful)

Shakrai (717556) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701545)

We have built 135 F-22s as of now, don't you think that's enough for the time being?

The thing is that once you shut down a production line for a modern aircraft like that it's very hard to impossible to start it back up again. I could understand if Gates wanted to reduce the number of them that we are ordering (although that also runs into issues with economy of scale, see the B-2 for an example) but shutting down the production lines altogether seems short-sighted to me.

But then, this is the same DoD that axed production of the Seawolf in favor of the "cheaper" Virginia's -- which turned out to be only 10% cheaper in exchange for only having half of the weapons load of the Seawolf. Hmm......

So keep your F-22 money, they're not likely to take on the Chinese air force anytime soon

I don't think we are going to take them on "anytime soon". God willing, we'll never have to take them on. But it takes years to decades to design a new fighter aircraft. It takes years to start up a production line even for existing designs. You can't think about tomorrow when looking at these decisions -- you have to think ten to twenty years ahead.

Re:Not surprising (1)

Twyst3d (1359973) | more than 4 years ago | (#27702371)

That could be a good reason for the US to want the war with China. We've borrowed so much money from them, what better way to wipe the debt than to wipe them out?

Not to mention. If you want to stay the big dog in the yard. You gotta make sure the 2nd biggest dog in the yard is afraid of you.

Ironically. Having the medium of cyber attacks as an outlet for shenanigans on both sides may very keep these two giant countries from decimating the world around them just to be on top

As someone else said "We do live in interesting times". Im glad to have been born at this time. The future may be to bleak to enjoy life and well the past (IMO) wasnt much to be excited about either

Re:Not surprising (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#27701897)

The carrier fleet is as big as it needs to be. More important than building new carriers is the ability to defend the existing ones.

The Chinese will soon deploy a new hypersonic anti-ship ballistic missile that is a Mach 10 problem for the Navy. And then there are Russian supersonic anti-ship missiles as well, which they are selling all over the world (including Iran). At the very least, the Phalanx guns must be supplemented or replaced by rolling airframe missiles.

At the moment, the survivability of a carrier vs. a barrage of supersonic anti-ship missiles is in doubt. It's a must-fix for the Navy and a higher defense priority than the F-22. Carrier operations in the Persian gulf vs. Iran would be a tricky proposition right now and I doubt they will try it.

On the upside, if the Navy can defend a carrier against such missiles, it means we have a nifty floating anti-missile technology platform that can shoot down just about anything fired by anyone. Park a few ships in the Sea of Japan and wait for the North Koreans to supply the target drones.

Re:Not surprising (1)

Shakrai (717556) | more than 4 years ago | (#27702051)

he Chinese will soon deploy a new hypersonic anti-ship ballistic missile that is a Mach 10 problem for the Navy

Citation?

And then there are Russian supersonic anti-ship missiles as well, which they are selling all over the world (including Iran). At the very least, the Phalanx guns must be supplemented or replaced by rolling airframe missiles.

The Phalanx is being replaced by the RAM. More important than replacing the Phalanx though is investing in fighter aircraft that can keep the launching platforms from getting into range to begin with. It's much easier to shoot down a bomber carrying missiles (or a scout plane trying to find your location so shore/ship based ones can be fired) than it is to shoot down the missiles after launch. In that vein I think it was a mistake to retire the F-14 and the Phoenix missile -- we should have fielded upgraded versions of both -- but DoD apparently thought differently.

Carrier operations in the Persian gulf vs. Iran would be a tricky proposition right now and I doubt they will try it.

Says who? All those missiles are useless if you can't locate the carrier to begin with. To locate the carrier you need to get an aircraft, ship or satellite within radar range. All three of those platforms can be detected, engaged and destroyed during wartime. The Iranian missile threat is cause for concern but I doubt they've negated our navy.

Re:Not surprising (1)

downix (84795) | more than 4 years ago | (#27702133)

He cut the F22 but is pushing the F35 instead, a far more versitile aircraft with lower operating costs. And don't forget, the F22 can be brought down by a simple HAM radio (reference Brittish Library Direct [direct.bl.uk]). As for carriers, the issue is not that we are killing off air capability on the sea, it is that we've built 4 since the fall of the Soviet Union, and have plans to build 3 more over the next 15 years. The original plan was to build 5 during the same time. He is simply shifting to a more practical standing, 5 years between launches rather than 3.

Re:Not surprising (1)

hesaigo999ca (786966) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701531)

I agree that the chinese gov. probably tolerates such actions towards other cournties, and that even maybe deals out encouragement to those who can by giving them jobs. But try in americas to do such things, you will get the door knock from men in black. Then if they find that you really ARE patrioitic and not a hax00r that wanted the fame or glory, then maybe they might let you walk away unscathed, but you will be watched from then on.....maybe in the near future they might call for help if there is something in your expertise, but doubtful!

Re:Not surprising (1)

WindBourne (631190) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701759)

That is not entirely true. If you crack systems and are not destructive, and do not represent a threat, you will likely be offered a job. The feds maintain a number of honeypots for exactly that purpose. OTH, if you broke into a real system, found out that it contained useful information, downloaded the secured data, and then put in a backdoor, you will go to prison. Quietly. If this was not in the news, you will go away for a VERY LONG TIME. Rightly so.

Re:Not surprising (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#27701619)

Of course, telling the crackers that if they crack local systems, they will get the death penality, but if they crack Foreign systems (namely the west) and share with the gov, they will get money, has a LOT to do with this.

I heard that that there were very few crackers in China.

Re:Not surprising (1)

Kaeso (1275972) | more than 4 years ago | (#27702347)

Basically, we are still in a cold war with one side KNOWING that it is, while the other side hopes that it is not.

With both sides being as economically inter-dependant as they are, we can't have a REAL cold war, despite all the nationalistic posturing.

Doing us a service? (4, Interesting)

DoofusOfDeath (636671) | more than 4 years ago | (#27700991)

To date, we've had hacks that are serious enough to alert us to the real threat, but rarely or never serious enough to cause us real harm.

It's a gentle warning to our vulnerabilities, with plenty of lead time to do something about it. At this point, if we keep on producing vulnerable and exposed important computer systems, we share the blame for the consequences of a serious hack.

Re:Doing us a service? (1, Offtopic)

Thelasko (1196535) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701103)

Speaking of doing us a service, how about posting some links to the hacker's blogs. I think some slashdotting is in order...

Re:Doing us a service? (0, Flamebait)

cbiltcliffe (186293) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701137)

The problem is, the idiots that control said vulnerable and exposed systems are either doing it with our money, or feel that they should be able to put anything on the Internet, and it's completely the other guy's fault for hacking it.

Nobody in the west takes this shit seriously enough.

Nobody.

* Except maybe Bruce....

This is America (4, Insightful)

castironpigeon (1056188) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701147)

We only take action when our bean counters say we've sustained enough damage to cover the cost of change. Just look at flight safety regulations, or car safety regulations, or food safety regulations, or environmental regulations...

Re:This is America (3, Informative)

maxume (22995) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701309)

Are you kidding?

Many European cars fail American crash safety standards. U.S. flights are equally or more safe than the global average. The food supply is quite safe (waiter snot is probably the biggest thing to worry about, not shit in your cabbage).

As far as the environment, you go swim in a river in China and I will swim in 20 rivers in the U.S.

Re:This is America (1)

Wolfier (94144) | more than 4 years ago | (#27702067)

> Many European cars fail American crash safety standards

Many American cars fail European safety standards as well - the standards are just different.

On the other hand, American driving test expectations are WAY below those of some European countries.

Re:This is America (1)

dunkelfalke (91624) | more than 4 years ago | (#27702141)

Well, as for european cars failing american crash safety standards, it is pretty much the same as american poultry failing russian food standards (true story, american chicken thighs is banned in russia since 2002).

It is not that european cars are less safe, it is just that american crash tests are different (for example chevy aveo practically failed the european crash test but got four stars in the american crash test).

Re:This is America (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#27702389)

I would not brag about food safety if I were you.
I have never seen processed meat products that can survive 3 weeks in a fridge unaltered ( no discoloration, no smell ) elsewhere than in the US.

Re:This is America (1)

R2.0 (532027) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701333)

Or when the news media and/or ATLA decides something is profitable: silicone breast implants, NSAIDs, , duct tape and plastic sheeting, ...

Interesting Article (4, Interesting)

cabjf (710106) | more than 4 years ago | (#27700993)

I read that article in my latest Pop Sci issue. It was very interesting that many of the Chinese hackers were not explicitly sponsored by the government, but do it for the fame and nationalistic pride. The hacker that the article zeroed in on seemed to disappear after college, but it was fairly obvious he was hired by some level of the government. It's like the Chinese government lets these young hackers learn on their own (so long as they aren't hacking their sites), then offers them jobs once they get skilled enough. The more direct damage from Chinese hackers is more likely from these uncontrollable hobby hackers than from the government sponsored and controlled ones.

yet more Chinese hacker BS .. (1)

viralMeme (1461143) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701009)

'At 8 a.m. on May 4, 2001, anyone trying to access the White House Web site got an error message. By noon, whitehouse.gov was down entirely, the victim of a so-called distributed denial-of-service (DDoS [popsci.com]) attack. Somewhere in the world, hackers were pinging White House servers with thousands of page requests per second, clogging the site. Also attacked were sites for the U.S. Navy and various other federal departments'

The solution is obvious, get a 'computer' that can't be hijacked to be used as part of a botnet, to launch DDOS attacks, to me co-opted in a spam farm, to be used to steal online identity and steal all your money from your bank account.

Re:yet more Chinese hacker BS .. (2, Informative)

cbiltcliffe (186293) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701203)

The solution is obvious, get a 'computer' that can't be hijacked to be used as part of a botnet, to launch DDOS attacks, to me co-opted in a spam farm, to be used to steal online identity and steal all your money from your bank account.

I think I've got a calculator watch somewhere that might meet your qualifications.

Seriously, if you think there is anything capable of being connected to the Internet that "cannot" be used for any of this nefarious crap, you're either seriously delusional, or woefully uneducated in security.

Everything can be hacked somehow. If it's got a network port with a cable plugged into it, and that cable allows physical (logical connection not necessary - only physical) connection with the Internet somewhere along the line, then it can be hacked and abused.

Sure, there are systems that are more resistant than others, but everything is vulnerable to some degree.

how to keep safe on the Internet (1)

viralMeme (1461143) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701323)

Seriously, if you think there is anything capable of being connected to the Internet that "cannot" be used for any of this nefarious crap, you're either seriously delusional, or woefully uneducated in security

Run the device from a read-only device and flush all the detritus from the cache at shutdown. Have the base system run the screen, mouse and keyboard and run the rest from a U3 [wikipedia.org] type device. I'm using something similar, a bunch of portable apps [portableapps.com] on a USB stick.

Re:yet more Chinese hacker BS .. (1)

4D6963 (933028) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701425)

Maybe in practice, but in theory it'd be trivial to make a unhackable computer connected to the Internet. If the only thing running on your computer is an OS which only knows how to turn raw data from the Ethernet cable into coloured pixels, I'd say that's pretty unhackable.

Re:yet more Chinese hacker BS .. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#27702377)

I'd say that's pretty unhackable.

And pointless.

FUD (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#27701015)

This is just FUD.

They probably have nothing better to do... (-1, Flamebait)

Lilith's Heart-shape (1224784) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701085)

...Since there aren't enough women to go around in China, and they probably aren't wired for gay sex.

Re:They probably have nothing better to do... (1)

WindowlessView (703773) | more than 4 years ago | (#27702663)

This is rather idiotically expressed but it is not an unimportant fact.

Because of the One Child policy and the preference for boys there are around 60 million more males than females. The men who won't end up with wives are very likely to be poor, under educated, and angry. Add chronically horny and frustrated on top of that and you have a problem that is likely going to manifest itself somehow, somewhere in an ugly manner.

What's up with all these "chinese menace" news? (4, Insightful)

vivaoporto (1064484) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701125)

What's up with all these "chinese menace" news? There are two in the front page right now, and more or less a dozen this year. Stirring up the herd with this "us vs. them" mentality is something that I'm not be surprised to see on the mainstream media, but here on Slashdot?

When it is not about the Chinese it is about Venezuela. Or Cuba. Brazil and Iran. Good old (ex)Soviet Russia. The french and the european in general.

Echoing Homeland Security FUD the way Slashdot is doing is only to generate buzz, flamebaiting the pro- and the anti-american, creating nothing but more endless threads of mutual accusations and jingoistic regurgitation, overgeneralizing statements and outright racist/xenophobic ones.

Fuck that, if there is nothing better to fill the main index, please, post less, not worse.

Re:What's up with all these "chinese menace" news? (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#27701275)

Greetings citizen,

We need to raise taxes to fight the Chinese.

Yours menacingly,

The Government

Re:What's up with all these "chinese menace" news? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#27701703)

I bet you are one of the people who still believe Obama is "The One" to make our government better through "Change." He could do no wrong, just like other humans in other countries wouldn't ever think of hacking their neighbors... No way.

Re:What's up with all these "chinese menace" news? (3, Interesting)

Thelasko (1196535) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701825)

What's up with all these "chinese menace" news?

<sarcasm>Yeah, and what's up with all of the "Obama administration is corrupt [slashdot.org]" news? If we keep this up, there might be an all out civil war soon. I mean, Texas is already considering secession. [usnews.com] </sarcasm>

Seriously, there is a difference between being racist/nationalist, and stating facts. This article is fact, and you are recommending censorship. If you don't think this article is true, than prove otherwise. Don't ridicule this article because it's "not nice."

Re:What's up with all these "chinese menace" news? (1)

tnk1 (899206) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701925)

The editors are getting nostalgic for the good old days of the Red Menace.

I have to admit, life's just not as much fun any more without some pinkos to get riled up about. Venezuela is working on it, but it's just another two bit banana dictatorship like Cuba. There's nothing that says "screaming Communist hordes out to rape and enslave" or "godless heathen Juggernaut" like the Red Chinese.

Re:What's up with all these "chinese menace" news? (2, Insightful)

mordx (463323) | more than 4 years ago | (#27702245)

If you want to know why these articles are popping up all over the place now, all you have to do is realize this.

Our federal government wants to pass this really awful piece of legislation which you can find a draft of here.

http://static.arstechnica.com/tech-policy/CYBERSEC5.pdf

They want the public to support it because it's got some fairly awful stuff in it, therefore the propoganda machine has started to insure that the public will ignore just how awful this thing is and cheer them on when they pass it.

why is it hard for you to perceive (3, Insightful)

circletimessquare (444983) | more than 4 years ago | (#27702525)

that what is motivating some people in china is exactly the kind of "us vs them" mentality you denounce in the west?

yes, such blind nationalist rabble rousing exists in the west

but what good does it do to pretend it doesn't exist in china?

at best, you are intellectually dishonest, at worst, you are exactly like those who are blindly nationalistic: criticism is something that you can only point at yourself. you are exactly like a blind nationalist because you think only in terms of western actions, as if there are no other actors in the world. in your world view, all we can do is criticize the west, that, for example, if china does some horrible crime, who are we to judge?

well, yes, we CAN judge. as a nonchinese, i am 100% free to criticize china. as long as i do it with intellectual honesty, that openly admits western crimes as well

in fact, to NOT criticize china at all, and only the west, is to serve only some sort of defeatist attitude. not nationally defeatist, but defeatist in terms of the idea that we need to move beyond nationalism, and think critically in terms of world problems free of nationalistic prejudice. you still have a nationalistic prejudice, you just apply it backwards than most. this is an intellectually inferior approach than the idea that you freely criticizing all parties in the world, free of nationalistic prejudice, basing your observations on principles, and principles alone

Proof: the Hollywood narrative style (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#27702577)

STUMBLING ONTO THE DANGER

In 2004, Scott Henderson, a trim 46-year-old with sandy brown hair, had just retired from decades as a language expert for the U.S. Army to work for a private intelligence contractor in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. With a command of Mandarin, not to mention a Taiwanese wife, Henderson's knowledge of China makes him valuable in the intelligence community. His mandate at the new job was open-source intelligence, which meant using only information from publicly available sources, mimicking the capabilities of the average civilian. Although he had little experience in the subject, he was assigned a report on Chinese hackers.

Sitting down at a desk overlooking the Fort Leavenworth military base, Henderson started, like any novice, with Google. Using Mandarin characters, he typed heike -- literally, "black guest" -- pulling up the characters for "hacker." Probably, he thought, he'd find articles rehashing weak Western reports. But when he hit "return," his browser displayed a slew of unfamiliar sites: hackbase.com, hacker123.com, hack8.cn. There were hundreds, maybe thousands. He quickly realized that each was the online headquarters of a Chinese hacker organization, with detailed logs of hacks, contact information for hackers, and forums where users discussed targets. Chinese hackers, it turns out, take credit on their own sites for attacks, leaving a long trail of documentation. They are so attention-driven that when they post images of their successes to online trophy rooms, they tag them with e-mail addresses, URLs, even cellphone numbers. Within three minutes, Henderson had more information than he knew what to do with.

He spent the next few months trying to make sense of the data. To map connections among hacker sites, he laid a large sheet of paper out on the floor of his office and started sketching the network by hand. The diagram quickly extended off the page. Then it extended off several taped-together pages. After a co-worker suggested the computer program i2 Analyst's Notebook, an investigative tool that allowed him to craft a more sophisticated model, Henderson, following links from site to site, connected 250 hacker pages. Monitoring a cross-section of sites over several days to estimate the number of people logged in at any given time, he came up with 380,000 hackers.

There were localized clubs, whose members saw one another regularly. There were fleeting groups, whose sites appeared and disappeared in a matter of weeks. There were kid hackers, femme-fatale hackers and hacker wannabes (although most hackers are simply computer-savvy 20-somethings -- what Henderson calls "normal guys"). One group penned a theme song. Henderson recognized early on that such publicity ploys were not the work of the state. "If this was some secret government-run organization," he says, "it was the most horribly run secret government organization in the universe."

Try to read some Gore Vidal (1)

msimm (580077) | more than 4 years ago | (#27702579)

Without something to fear we might become interested in domestic politics or worse, thinking.

I'm confused (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#27701143)

Ok, I'm confused. Someone explain to me again why we still let China have access to the internet?

Re:I'm confused (1)

AndGodSed (968378) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701187)

I am also wondering about this - "LET them have access..." is probably a bit crude, since no one really controls the whole intarwebs and nobody could decide who gets it and who doesn't... legally, but surely the peering links can be removed via a "dropped anchor" or "fishing accident?"

Can't say that I'm surprised. (1)

MrCrassic (994046) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701159)

What happens when you have most of a country of over one billion people trained to be consistently nationalistic?

In fact, I thought that this was already well-known information.

the idiocies of religions are only matched (5, Interesting)

circletimessquare (444983) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701193)

by the idiocies of nationalism

if anyone looks to the far east and sees a land blissfully free of the stupidities of monotheism, think again: china does have a religion. that religion is called china. han imperialism is on par with all of the other vicious forces in this world we must contend with and defeat. not that china is alone. russian nationalism and imperialism, american nationalism and imperialism... it's all evil, it all must be defeated

one day we will have a world if not free of organized religon and ethnocentrism, at least outside the all-controlling clutches of such

until then, we must all contend with blind pride: the source of so much evil in this world

nationalism and organized religion are forces in this world which must be defeated if we are all to live in peace

Re:the idiocies of religions are only matched (1)

UltimApe (991552) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701347)

so would that make us anti-nationalist... I don't believe in the idea of countries?

the future is one world goverment (1)

circletimessquare (444983) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701749)

in which the countries of today are like the states of the usa today

if i live in new york, and you live in ohio, we may harmlessly jeer each other at sporting matches, or fight over highway funds in the federal government, but there is no rationale or basis for me to pick up a gun and go murder you

we see this congealing of countries into larger constellations already with the EU, ASEAN, african union, etc...

unfortunately, we have hardcore ultranationalists right now, in china, in russia, in the usa, who are actively supportive of the notion of killing each other, or at least stomping out nearby smaller ethnic minorities and weaker nations nearby (tibet, cuba, georgia, etc.)

Re:the idiocies of religions are only matched (1)

east coast (590680) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701379)

Sorry, but pride and prejudice is hardwired into everyone. Once you get rid of one problem another will be right around the corner. This idea that we're going to weed out the ills of society one by one is laughable at best.

i didn't say we would be free of it (1)

circletimessquare (444983) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701523)

i agree with you 100%: blind pride is part of human nature, and we're never ridding ourselves of it. i have blind pride. you have blind pride

i wrote the following line with your complaint in mind:

"one day we will have a world if not free of organized religon and ethnocentrism, at least outside the all-controlling clutches of such"

for example: you can't say with a straight face that organized religion is in complete control, nor that countries aren't coming out of the shadows of it even today. witness european history. witness laws that go against catholic edicts on human sexuality all over latin america today. witness the usa going from puritanical colonies to open separation between church and state. these are all positve developments. the muslim world though of course has a long way to go, but its not like the average intelligent muslim can't look at something like the taliban eating up pakistan and not believe and not understand that religious fundamentalism will only destory the muslim world. he or she will plant the seeds that will result in a progressive secular muslim world someday. we are a long way from it, but are you going to tell me its impossible or improbable?

which brings me to the tone of your comment: if i can put a finger on a force even more destructive than blind pride (something else, alas, intrinsicially human), it is: cynicism, negativity, stasis, lack of belief in progress

there actually is progress in this world, in spite of your naysaying. your cynicism is no replacement for real intelligence

Re:the idiocies of religions are only matched (5, Insightful)

themacks (1197889) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701453)

nationalism and organized religion are forces in this world which must be defeated if we are all to live in peace

I think that contains a subset of the real problem. The real problem is people thinking that, because they belong to a certain group (country, religion, secret club), they are somehow better than people not in the same group. Nations and religions are not the problem, it's the idea that "I'm better than you" because of some group.

exactly, 100% (1)

circletimessquare (444983) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701613)

the truth of course is that we all belong to a group: humanity. but there are people who fimly 100% believe that their han ethnicity, that their islamic beliefs, that their americanness, etc., is something that is more important than their shared sense of humanity

this person is a source of our doom. it doesn't even have to be active. a wily demagogue can enunciate and manipulate their prejudices and sense of blind pride in such a way that death and suffering at the hands of islam, or the usa, or the red army is rationalized and perfectly acceptable

the entire history of humanity, which we are only beginning, is the journey to understand that our shared humanity is more important than our ethnicity, our nation, or our religion

unfortunately, we still live in a world where a majority of us have this backwards

Re:exactly, 100% (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#27702187)

So say we all... :D

Re:the idiocies of religions are only matched (1)

lobsterturd (620980) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701687)

In the words of US diplomat Dan Fried: nationalism is like cheap alcohol - first it makes you drunk, then it makes you blind, then it kills you.

Re:the idiocies of religions are only matched (2, Insightful)

DomNF15 (1529309) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701829)

nationalism and organized religion are forces in this world which must be defeated if we are all to live in peace

I disagree with your blanket statement about organized religion, and with blanket statements in general. It is this kind of closed minded thinking that causes problems in the first place. There are a number of organized religions that work towards peace and the civil treatment of all human beings, I point you to the Catholic Church's pope as an example.

Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with being proud of where you come from, as long as you are willing to accept that others will also be proud of where they come from, and have value to offer.

Re:the idiocies of religions are only matched (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#27702059)

Oh, if only I had mod points today I'd mod you funny. The pope as a good example? Nutjob.

agreed, with a caveat: (1)

circletimessquare (444983) | more than 4 years ago | (#27702181)

there is nothing wrong with being catholic

there is nothing wrong being scottish

there is nothing wrong with being american

etc.

the problem comes when one of these features of your identity is something you consider more important than your shared sense of humanity

for example, the pope breaks this rule:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19692094/ [msn.com]

his assertion is that only the catholic church is a true church

"Christ 'established here on earth' only one church," the document said. The other communities "cannot be called 'churches' in the proper sense" because they do not have apostolic succession -- the ability to trace their bishops back to Christ's original apostles.

here the pope is clearly asserting that catholic identity is superior to protestant identity

now not to gang up on the pope, as pretty much all other religions have this sort of exclusionary belief as a foundational concept: look to islam and its teachings on the superiority of the ummah, for example. but this is very much the source of all the problems in the world: "i am in group {xyz}, you are not in group {xyz}, therefore i am better than you"

it is very possible to be a proud catholic, or a proud sunni, or a proud sikh, or whatever, and yet know the limits of that pride, and subsume your pride in that identity to your identity as a human being. for example: knowing that just because you are a sunni, that does not mean you are automatically better than a shiite. unfortunately, someone just bombed and killed 60 shiites yesterday in iraq. most probably a sunni who views all shiites as dogs. not that there is not also some sunni who sees shiites as inferior but would never kill anyone, but the "original sin", if you will, that makes all crimes in this world possible of race upon race, ethnicity upon ethnicity, nation upon nation, religion upon relgion, etc., is this initial belief: "being in group x makes me superior to people not in group x"

until such a better time in our distant future when this sentiment is seen as the clear and vile evil that it is, right now we are very much mired in a barbarian era of foolish pride, as exemplified by the pope's own statements, a pope who openly embraces and encourages this vile evil of blind pride, of putting membership in some arbitrary group as a basis of superiority, openly breaking the bond of common hunaity we all share

Re:the idiocies of religions are only matched (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#27701987)

Your words ring closely to international socialism.

Why should people not feel attachments to their history or their region?

How can you 'defeat nationalism' without removing that pride?

How do you remove pride in nation and history?

I have seen examples from Sweden, where the government stated that Swedish culture was silly and idiotic, and that Swedes were simply envious of foreigners because foreigners had real culture. Is this the form of 'dismantling national pride' that you envision?

Do you have concrete examples of nations where national pride has been successfully dismantled, without this being followed by increased psychological distress amongst young people and greater social isolation?

I would think national and historic pride is something that ties people together and encourages people to act in a good way (because the object of their pride has existed before them and will exist after them, and so their actions will have a lasting impact). If you dismantle that, behaviour becomes short-termist and bonds break down. That is my theory and what I observe in Europe, based on e.g. volunteerism and group participations. Do you have a view to the contrary?

false dichotomy (1)

circletimessquare (444983) | more than 4 years ago | (#27702405)

it is 100% possible to be proud of your catholicism, your scottishness, your whatever, and yet still know the limits of that

you present the false choice that you have to be proud of that at the sacrifice of knowing your shared sense of humanity, or visa versa. no, not at all

for example: i know murder is wrong. but i most definitely will kill someone who is pointing a gun at my family. there is no inconsistency in that view whatsoever. likewise, i can take pride in the catholic church, in its teachings, in its grand spectacle, and know at the same time, that the pope is 100% wrong when he says this: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19692094/ [msn.com]

no, pope, you are wrong: nothing about being a catholic means i am better than anyone else. and i have in no way reduced my catholic pride, nor have i inflated my pride into blind smug superiority over noncatholic humanity

its all about limits. it is a false dichotomy to say i have to choose between my belief in essential human equality and my religion/ nationality. no, it is not one or the other. would you tell me that if i don't bleieve in murder that i can't defend my family from being hurt or killed with deadly force of my own? of coruse you wouldn't. you understand why that's a flase dichotomy 100%. because its not so cut and dry. then don't present a false choice on the nature of pride either

and ps: please don't babble about "socialism". the word socialism has lost all meaning. before recent times it was already a very broad complex term, but recently its become nothing but a propagandistic term for anything outside certain partisan hackery. so you can label something "socialism" and then cease to think about the merits or detriments of a person's argument, and enter a retarded kneejerk automatic unthinking rejection of whatever someone says. if you wish to be an intellectually honest person, debate someone on the merits of what they say or lack thereof, don't apply mindless lightning rod labels and think you actually somehow defeat the other person's point of view, valid or not

Re:the idiocies of religions are only matched (1)

Plutonite (999141) | more than 4 years ago | (#27702531)

It's called collective ego, or group ego. It's not about nationalism or religion, although with bigger groups it tends to get worse. It is part of your evolution, just like your individual ego, and serves almost the same purpose.

Re:the idiocies of religions are only matched (1)

Plutonite (999141) | more than 4 years ago | (#27702555)

I just thought I'd clarify that this is not some standard theory but rather something I cam up with while washing dishes at home :)

And for everybody who is about to jump out of their chair to tell me that evolution doesn't mean to do things, it just happens to do so: I know.

Cyber terrorism (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#27701197)

Isn't that government sponsored cyber terrorism?

Re:Cyber terrorism (1, Funny)

AndGodSed (968378) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701295)

So as opposed to a "Weapon of Mass Distruction" the chinese hacker force is a "Weapon of Mass Dysfunction"

When do the yanks invade?

>sorry could not resist...

Umm (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#27701277)

How much of this is just loose, uncoordinated hackers, using proxies in china?

There's a simple solution to this (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#27701421)

Don't allow internet access to classified documents and critical technological webpages.

Wait, that would make sense.......

Psyop? (1)

TheP4st (1164315) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701449)

FTA

A series of defacements left little doubt about where the attack originated. "Beat down Imperialism of American [sic]! Attack anti-Chinese arrogance!" read the Interior Department's National Business Center site. "CHINA HACK!" proclaimed the Department of Labor home page. "I AM CHINESE," declared a U.S. Navy page.

Yep, that everything your read on the internet is true is a well established fact. Or, could this just possibly be psyops with the purpose of generating fear, fishing for funding and any other of a myriad of other possibilities beside that it is a Chinese attack, which of course that too is a possibility.

There's Little Distinction (1)

mpapet (761907) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701489)

it's easy for the government to turn on and hard to turn off.

The American Government is as capable as any to do the same. Anyone like to relive the political/social environment when Bush #43 was justifying a war on two fronts? I'm old enough to remember the fabrications used by Bush #41 to get congress to go to war in Kuwait.

There is nothing special about the Chinese.

This is Only the Beginning (2, Interesting)

Phoenix666 (184391) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701505)

Congressional whitepapers on China have been warning for 15-20 years that they are actively working to develop non-traditional means to pursue asymmetrical warfare against the United States. That is, China has been gearing up to go to war with the U.S. that whole time, and we foolishly allowed ourselves to be distracted by the ridiculous Chicken-Little "Terrorists! Terrorists!" meme. It is China, not a bedraggled pack of guys hiding in caves in Pakistan, who poses the existential threat to us.

Everyone acknowledges that Taiwan will be the flash point, meaning that the mainland will forcibly repatriate them if the Taiwanese don't surrender peacefully. Beijing took a run at it about 15 years ago when they started shooting missiles across shipping lanes in the Strait of Taiwan. The U.S. sent a carrier battlegroup to sail up and down between the two parties and that put a hasty end to that, because the Chinese realized that one tiny part of our navy packed enough firepower to sink the entire Chinese navy in 15 minutes.

Since then they've been going at it much more systematically. They've been working hard on the diplomatic front in Africa and South America to develop relationships with resource-rich countries there who are tired of the West lecturing them about morality and corruption. On the business front, they've been moving their corporations closer and closer to strategic locations and critical technology; a shell company for the People's Liberation Army, for example, now administers the Panama Canal, which the U.S. navy uses to redeploy ships between Atlantic and Pacific. Economically, they have built up enormous reserves of U.S. dollars and have now got the entire U.S. economy by the throat--all they'd have to do to throw us into a tailspin is to STOP buying our debt. On the cyberfront they're infiltrating our systems and trying to crack our power grid and military satellites and gain access to classified information. And even their military is catching up. They're actively acquiring Russian Alpha submarines and aircraft carriers, shore-to-ship missiles, amphibious landing craft, and anti-satellite weapons (which they tested last year, you may recall).

The CCP has been very crafty in doing all this, quietly building up their capabilities and pinging us from time to time to test the viability of their strategy, which is to attack first economically and with crackers, and then while we're running around screaming at the chaos, they'll move to seize Taiwan. One of those pings was a couple weeks ago when the Chinese minister expressed doubt about the utility of the U.S. dollar as a reserve currency. The shockwaves from that one are still reverberating. Another ping was a couple weeks before that when their ships were harassing our boat in the South China Sea. They may believe the time is almost ripe to make their move, because this stuff is coming more frequently now, and because there are signs that the Obama administration, unlike the Bush administration, is choosing to employ intelligent, capable people who keep careful watch on things that matter and are winding down the terrorist! terrorist! crap so they can focus on China.

But that's why the decentralized nature of the Chinese crackers is so dangerous, because it may make the cascade of events to open hostilities inevitable--they can't be controlled by the Chinese government and may start things in motion on their own.

Fortunately, for now, the United States still has the ace up its sleeve that instantly puts an end to all the CCP's plans, as well as the crackers. That ace is called nuclear submarines. China's numerical troop advantage matters naught there, and American submariners have been past masters for decades at outclassing Alphas run by Russians who know how to drive them. And 15 minutes after the U.S. president gives the greenlight, the brutal reign of the Chinese leadership would come to an abrupt end.

I hope the guys in Beijing bear that thought in mind, and reel in the yahoos like the crackers before they start real trouble. I'd really like to avoid us having to draft every single male with two legs and a pulse to fight a war with them, and for my baby daughter to have a chance to grow up.

Re:This is Only the Beginning (2, Insightful)

Martin Foster (4949) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701845)

SSBN's are not necessarily the trump card everyone makes them up to be. They are effective against other nuclear submarines such as the Alpha which is renowned for generating large amounts of self-noise.

They are not however overly effective against diesel-electric submarines that can move through the water with a lot less noise generation. I would assume that the Chinese has a fleet of Kilo-like class of diesel-electrics that would prevent or threaten naval operation close to their shores.

In the end, deterrence is one of the biggest factors. If stories from the Royal Australian Navy and their ilk is true and that they have been able to stalk and shadow carriers in their 'outdated' submarine technology, then the Americans would think twice before getting too close.

Pork Generation Exercise (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#27701547)

says it all

The US Government Reminds All Citizens to Keep Their Daily Fear Quotient at Maximum Level

Nothing in China is uncoordinated (1)

imrdkl (302224) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701581)

While the article itself properly describes the phenomenon in its early stages as "loosely coordinated", the word uncoordinated is never used, and is in fact misleading in this write up.

Cyber threat fear is being drummed up right now (3, Insightful)

filmmaker (850359) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701635)

Ok, over the last couple weeks, several stories have made their way into the news about cybersecurity.

These stories overstate the threat, and, in particular, only serve to loudly announce things which are already well known. For example, the fact that DoD systems are probed continuously by the Chinese. But! That's always been true. Where were all the alarming sounding news reports last year? Two years ago? Ten years ago? Where was Jay Rockefeller's Senate bill, S. 773, which aims to restrict Internet freedom in the United States [govtrack.us] in previous years? We can all expect the media heat to increase even more as the public is whipped into a frenzy of fear, and then comes to accept that we need the Federal Government to restrict our Internet freedom--for our own safety, of course!

As these stories come through Slashdot, we all bicker amongst ourselves as to how grave the threat is. Or where it's coming from. Or how we might combat it. It's so predictable. And while we're distracted with these irrelevant (although admittedly interesting in some cases) discussions, Senate and House bills are moving through our Congress right now which I consider to be "Patriot Acts" for the Internet. Nobody is talking about those, though.

We get what we deserve when we demand nothing at all.

They are NOT hackers (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#27701743)

Just a bunch of children, script kiddies, with a dialog box complexity like programs lead by pimpled face Napoleon size frustrated colonel.

They're a joke.

Cyber-Boxers? (3, Interesting)

yogibaer (757010) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701827)

The question remains, if this just (a very large) bunch of isolated individualists on the hunt for fame and fortune, or if they could be united under a common belief and turned into a nationalistic, anti-foreign mass movement like the "Boxers" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion [wikipedia.org], lashing out violently against anything or anyone that critizises or threatens mother China. A lot has been writtten about the downtrodden rural masses that could destroy the chinese "Wirtschaftswunder" in a bloody uprising with unforseeable consequencesfor the world, but I wonder if we also have to be wary about something like a boxer movement in cyberspace.

Ouch! (1)

hesaigo999ca (786966) | more than 4 years ago | (#27701875)

After RTFA. I had to say, the person responsible for the article was an ex military, but contracted to do recon about chinese hackers, but should the US not be doing this, instead of some freelance contractor. Now we know that the gov does not have the most capable people working for them to filter cyber crime, imagine some dude walks in ...says hey did you look here? and presto the biggest chinese
cyber gang bang around.

Imagine if they actually really wanted to do something about the problem, instead of spending so much time wasted on appearance that they do care. Just do the work, here is a guy who after 5 weeks ...gave you 300,000 hackers ...imagine if you had your whole task force doing this, they could get even a bigger clue on how big a problem this really is!!!

The scary thing? They're probably not that bad. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#27702021)

My first reaction was that the most amazing thing about this was that with the internet at their fingertips, those people still believe in the oppressive system. But as already pointed out, it isn't that amazing, altough hard to understand for the American Mind[tm]. Then again, at least the Europeans will forcibly learn to love oppression that with 'net-cencorship in full rising swing over there.

The really scary thing is that the danger of Chinese World Domination[tm] is not that much because the effects are diminishingly distinguishable from American World Domination[tm] or European World Domination[tm] or even Muslim World Domination[tm]. To us, that is. To the people at the various tops it matters a great deal, but not to Joe Average or even Jack Slashdotter. Think about it. The only difference is which freedoms you're losing first, not how many.

Don't believe me? Blackmailers and tyrants never stop at their first success, ask any criminologist.

Oh, and maybe you'll have to learn Chinese. Big deal. Otherwise all the Chinese would have to learn English. At least their literature has a bit of history behind it.

They're NOT hackers (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#27702039)

Just bunch of frustrated children with dialog box complexity like programs.

This is total bullshit. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#27702095)

Oh yes, those people hacking your computers with remarkable professional aplomb in a nation of peasants are just loose uncoordinated rogue citizens.

If you believe that, I have a lovely bridge in Brooklyn for you, and a sister you just *have* to meet!

The Realm vs China? (2, Funny)

SEWilco (27983) | more than 4 years ago | (#27702167)

Following the tradition, I did not RTFA, but I did read the ad on this article. Cisco is advertising something called "The Realm" and illustrating it with some superhero types. Can't those guys take care of China for us? Cisco, save us! And make a reality show of it for our enjoyment.

And here is what I propose for an answer ... (5, Interesting)

golodh (893453) | more than 4 years ago | (#27702269)

We have an extensive and poorly secured (as no un-passworded systems, vulnerable dictionary-based passwords, no system auditing, almost no network auditing) IT infrastructure, we have loads of national and international computer burglars banging away at it, we have a lot of people who know something about IT looking for a job, and we have a government looking for sensible ways to spend money so as to alleviate the recession.

Am I alone in thinking that it would be money well spent to set up 3 or so military schools in the US specifically to train network administrators? Students to enlist for the duration of their training (basic raining plus 2 years specialist training), subsequently 5 years of operational service as a sergeant. Graduates of this course to be unconditionally qualified for all basic network security and operation anywhere in the government (from local to federal).

It helps protect both our civillian and our military IT infrastructure, it builds a reservoir of people who know how to secure and operate a computer network for any government agency to draw from, and it provides jobs.

So ... how about it?

and I will say it again... (2, Insightful)

DnemoniX (31461) | more than 4 years ago | (#27702291)

Why do people not just drop the traffic from these harbors of hostile activity? Even if a cracker was located outside of China and using TOR or something similar to route through China, drop them at the last mile. This will provide at least a small amount of relief. I am sure somebody will respond to that idea with "well they would just use local zombies then". Yes, but dealing with hostile intent on your own soil is much easier to deal with than trying to shut down a connection on foreign soil. Can anyone come up with a reason that doing this on and government network/resource shouldn't be a standard practice? Does anyone in China have a legitimate reason for going to a DoD/FBI/NSA/Military network presence? Nope, not really. Should anyone care if somebody in Hong Kong cannot get to the NYPD website? Nope, not really. Sorry if this sounds a bit extreme but come on, when somebody is able to siphon off terabytes of stolen data on one of the most expensive military projects ever, measures need to be taken.

Turn around is fair play (3, Insightful)

DnemoniX (31461) | more than 4 years ago | (#27702331)

Maybe our government should start sponsoring patriotic groups of our own in the same way that China does. Instead of treating misguided young hackers as hardened criminals, give them a free pass to operate outside of our borders. Send them a case of Red Bull and a job offer in a few years. Sounds fair to me.

NSA gets real time access to your email (1)

rs232 (849320) | more than 4 years ago | (#27702621)

"Certain privacy/full session SSL email hosting services have been purchased/changed operational control by NSA [indymedia.org] and affiliates within the past few months, through private intermediary entities,"
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  • a
  • ol
  • ul
  • li
  • dl
  • dt
  • dd
  • em
  • strong
  • tt
  • blockquote
  • div
  • quote
  • ecode

"ecode" can be used for code snippets, for example:

<ecode>    while(1) { do_something(); } </ecode>
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