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234 comments

Such projects perhaps should die. (-1, Flamebait)

goffster (1104287) | more than 5 years ago | (#27731587)

they never seem to go anywhere.

Re:Such projects perhaps should die. (5, Funny)

ShieldW0lf (601553) | more than 5 years ago | (#27731961)

Oracle expects Sun to contribute to its operating profit right away. To make that happen, Oracle may pull funding and staff from projects such as JavaFX, Project Looking Glass, and Project GlassFish.

Ahh, but Oracle may decide to turn their offices into an exotic nightclub and force the engineers to work overtime as erotic dancers. You never know what they might do...

Speculation for nerds, stuff that's made up

Re:Such projects perhaps should die. (1)

zoomshorts (137587) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732059)

We never know what SCO could have done or should have done either.

Shall I hold my breath?

Mod parent down (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27732065)

Congrats on being a position whore. Post directly to the story or at least find a related post.

Re:Mod parent down (1, Funny)

ShieldW0lf (601553) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732283)

Congrats on being a position whore. Post directly to the story or at least find a related post.

Ok, now I'm pissed... you mean people actually get paid to do this? I've been acting like a position slut and giving it away for free! I wants my money!

Re:Such projects perhaps should die. (4, Funny)

AliasMarlowe (1042386) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732129)

...force the engineers to work overtime as erotic dancers...

How to lose staff and alienate customers?
Oracle has a track record of such brilliance.

Exotic Nightclubs and Erotic Dancers (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27733401)

Scott, Jonathan

I can't believe this! My plans for our premises and staff have been leaked all over the Internet already. I still think your engineering talent will make much more money through our Exotic Sunset Clubs than they ever did from Java (especially with the tips). We've just got to keep the lid on this, any more leaks and we'll be seeing it as SCO's recovery plan.

Later

Larry

Re:Such projects perhaps should die. (1)

tritonman (998572) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732371)

Consider projects like the imageio. I believe this finally made it into the JRE (not positive though), but it is extremely slow. I tried using this for processing TIFF files and it was 50 times slower than anything else I tried.

Glassfish is a Must-Have for Oracle (5, Insightful)

AKAImBatman (238306) | more than 5 years ago | (#27731591)

IMHO, JavaFX has been a solution looking for a problem. Applets aren't coming back (thank God), so stop trying to create an ideal Applet platform. HTML5 is meeting that need well enough, thanks' much. Pulling funding from the JavaFX project would hardly even be noticable.

Project Looking Glass is one of those things I'd hate to see go, but Sun hasn't exactly done much with it. Oracle needs to decide that they'll support it full hog as a core product or just leave the project to the OSS community. This noncommittal attitude has been leaving the project in limbo.

Now Project Glassfish, that's a whole other ball of wax. Oracle screwed up Orion (the BEST J2EE server back in the day) to insane levels of uselessness under the guise of Oracle Application Server. (Hey look! Oracle is almost as good at naming as Sun!) Glassfish (aka Sun Java System Application Server) is modern, scalable, easy to use, and absolutely wicked when deployed. Oracle would do well to give up on OAS and just let Sun keep doing what they're doing with SJSAS/GlassFish.

Re:Glassfish is a Must-Have for Oracle (1, Insightful)

pohl (872) | more than 5 years ago | (#27731693)

I agree. Pulling funding for glassfish would be a horrible move.

Re:Glassfish is a Must-Have for Oracle (2, Insightful)

BabyDave (575083) | more than 5 years ago | (#27731739)

Wasn't that supposedly one of the main reasons that they bought BEA - to get Weblogic to merge with/replace OAS?

Re:Glassfish is a Must-Have for Oracle (4, Insightful)

AKAImBatman (238306) | more than 5 years ago | (#27731951)

Ever since Microsoft got away with a slap on the wrist, Oracle has been buying their way to a monopoly. They give excuses for purchasing competitors (some of which might even be true), but their core aim is to be the big fish in the pond.

Oracle may get some benefit out of BEA's product line or they might trash it. Doesn't matter either way. Oracle eliminated a competitor, bought a market, and is looking to reap the rewards of that maneuver. The tech is secondary.

That being said, the Sun purchase is slightly different. Oracle and Sun have been a strong pairing on the high end of database deployments. Oracle needs Sun and their hardware to survive. It doesn't hurt that owning the business gives Oracle enough tools to hit IBM where it hurts...

(I'll have to visit IBM sometime and see how many bloody stains I can find on the walls. There has got to be some serious head banging going on over there. ;-))

Re:Glassfish is a Must-Have for Oracle (1)

D Ninja (825055) | more than 5 years ago | (#27733247)

They give excuses for purchasing competitors (some of which might even be true), but their core aim is to be the big fish in the pond.

I think you mean the big GLASSfish in the pond.

What?

Re:Glassfish is a Must-Have for Oracle (4, Interesting)

Red Flayer (890720) | more than 5 years ago | (#27733327)

Ever since Microsoft got away with a slap on the wrist, Oracle has been buying their way to a monopoly. They give excuses for purchasing competitors (some of which might even be true), but their core aim is to be the big fish in the pond.

Buying their way to a monopoly is very different from buying their way to being a big fish in a little pond.

Note that buying BEA still makes then only the second-biggest middleware firm (SAP still being larger in that market).

I agree that Oracle wants to be the dominant competitor in each of the markets it competes in, BUT that is not the same as having monopoly position.

Truth be told, aside from the Sun acquisition, most of Oracle's acquisitions in the past few years have been about horizontal growth -- getting Oracle middleware products into markets where they had little presence (finance & banking, insurance, etc). There has not been so much of them buying competitors in markets they already have a big presence in, which is where the monopoly fears should come.

Re:Glassfish is a Must-Have for Oracle (1)

CrashandDie (1114135) | more than 5 years ago | (#27733651)

but [Oracle's] core aim is to be the big fish in the pond

Oracle probably has quite close to a 100% market share with Fortune 100 companies, and well over 90% with Fortune 500. They are the big fish in the pond.

Re:Glassfish is a Must-Have for Oracle (3, Insightful)

MrEricSir (398214) | more than 5 years ago | (#27731831)

Applets are still used quite extensively, actually. And now we have webstart, which is more or less the same candy in a different wrapper.

Re:Glassfish is a Must-Have for Oracle (4, Insightful)

fm6 (162816) | more than 5 years ago | (#27733521)

Applets are still used quite extensively, actually.

Used? Yes. Extensively? No. There are too many competing technology for embedding applications in a web browser, and Java's applet API is the least powerful among them.

And now we have webstart, which is more or less the same candy in a different wrapper.

No it's not. JWS applications don't use the applet API and do not run in a browser window. They're just like non-embedded applications, except that instead of typing "java main class" or executing a JAR file, you execute an XML file that tells your JRE the URLs it needs to download. You might use a web browser to obtain the XML file. But you can also have a local XML file that you can run without firing up a web browser.

Even at Sun, people mostly agree that applets aren't really useful. They're probably be around as long as Java is, but if Oracle has any sense, they'll stay in maintenance mode with no more API development.
 

Applets are still used for games (1)

pjt33 (739471) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732007)

Applets may not be great for much else, but they are great for games. I don't care about JavaFX per se but it was at least partly responsible for recent work to improve the Java2D graphics libraries, and a lot of Java games would benefit from further improvements there.

Re:Applets are still used for games (1)

cdgeorge (775179) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732349)

I don't think so. Even Yahoo is pulling the plug on their games (e.g. chess) and is using Flash instead.

Re:Applets are still used for games (1)

dshk (838175) | more than 5 years ago | (#27733103)

We are not Yahoo but we are using applets to serve about 1 000 000 unique users per month. E.g. for chess.

Re:Applets are still used for games (1)

fm6 (162816) | more than 5 years ago | (#27733583)

I play a lot of games on the web, and I've never seen a really good Java game. Flash seems to dominate this market.

Re:Glassfish is a Must-Have for Oracle (1, Insightful)

pembo13 (770295) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732019)

I'd take a WebStart client over an AJAX client any day.

Re:Glassfish is a Must-Have for Oracle (1, Insightful)

MyLongNickName (822545) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732565)

How is something +4 Informative when no reasoning is given behind the thinking?

Re:Glassfish is a Must-Have for Oracle (5, Funny)

larry bagina (561269) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732663)

a lot of moderators were wondering if pembo13 prefers ajax or java.

Re:Glassfish is a Must-Have for Oracle (1, Interesting)

H0p313ss (811249) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732791)

How is something +4 Informative when no reasoning is given behind the thinking?

Can you imagine the kind of twisted reasoning that led to that conclusion? Are we perhaps better off not knowing?

Re:Glassfish is a Must-Have for Oracle (5, Informative)

rbanffy (584143) | more than 5 years ago | (#27733001)

He was merely informing he would take a WebStart client over an AJAX client any day.

Well... I wouldn't.

Now, someone mod me um +5 informative.

RIA's need more than HTML5/CSS/JavaScript (5, Insightful)

javacowboy (222023) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732105)

HTML/CSS/JavaScript is an insufficient platform for Rich Internet Applications (RIA). Why do you think Flash is still so widely used? It's not just video. It's complex charting, graphics, animations, etc.

If you think Flash and Silverlight are just going to go away, or that IE and its non-standard compliance and lack of SVG are just going to go away, you're dreaming in technicolour. Web standards will eventually hit a wall.

I don't disagree that a lot of functionality (including video) can be implemented by all browsers that implement that new web standards, but it won't enough.

Besides, JavaFX has distinct advantages over Flash and Silverlight. It integrates seamlessly with server-side Java code. It also shares the same APIs with JavaFX Mobile, which allows mobile and RIA apps to share the same code.

Besides, do you really want the rich web to turn into a battle between two proprietary frameworks? Parts of JavaFX are already open source, and Sun is planning to open source the rest.

Re:RIA's need more than HTML5/CSS/JavaScript (2, Insightful)

AndrewNeo (979708) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732155)

Besides, JavaFX has distinct advantages over Flash and Silverlight. It integrates seamlessly with server-side Java code.

So does Silverlight with ASP.NET code, doesn't it?

Re:RIA's need more than HTML5/CSS/JavaScript (1)

javacowboy (222023) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732285)

This is true. However, the point is to give Java shops the opportunity to move away from Flex. Whatever Microsoft shops choose to do is not Oracle-Sun's concern.

Re:RIA's need more than HTML5/CSS/JavaScript (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27732333)

Until Microsoft abandons them for their Next Big Thing.

Re:RIA's need more than HTML5/CSS/JavaScript (0, Redundant)

OwnedByTwoCats (124103) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732981)

Yeah, but Silverlight and ASP.NET bind you tightly to the Microsoft server platform.

Server-side Java code can run on free stacks all the way down to the operating system, as well as on proprietary stacks. Silverlight/ASP.NET, not so much.

Re:RIA's need more than HTML5/CSS/JavaScript (2, Interesting)

AKAImBatman (238306) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732195)

HTML/CSS/JavaScript is an insufficient platform for Rich Internet Applications (RIA).

There's a reason why I specifically mentioned HTML5. Video, Canvas, Audio, SVG, Networking, Storage, multi-threading, etc. The platform meets and even exceeds the Flash and Silverlight platforms.

This ain't your grandma's HTML, boay!

Re:RIA's need more than HTML5/CSS/JavaScript (2, Informative)

javacowboy (222023) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732305)

There's a reason why I specifically mentioned HTML5. Video, Canvas, Audio, SVG, Networking, Storage, multi-threading, etc. The platform meets and even exceeds the Flash and Silverlight platforms.

Which browsers have fully implemented these? And how many corporations do you think will deploy intranet webapps that specifically omit support for IE?

Re:RIA's need more than HTML5/CSS/JavaScript (1)

Glonk (103787) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732573)

Firefox 3.5 implements the majority of those. IIRC Webkit and Safari are almost there too, and even MS is making a sprint to HTML 5 -- IE8 has started implementation there.

As for editors, yes -- they are under development.

Re:RIA's need more than HTML5/CSS/JavaScript (2, Insightful)

javacowboy (222023) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732633)

IE 8 has specifically omitted support for SVG. Seems Microsoft has a conflict of interest in regard to Silverlight. There's no way an RIA application will be deployed if it doesn't support the browser with a 70%+ installed base.

Re:RIA's need more than HTML5/CSS/JavaScript (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27733087)

There's no way an RIA application will be deployed if it doesn't support the browser with a 70%+ installed base.

You mean 66% and dropping like a rock [cio.com] ?

Microsoft made their choices. And the market is not happy.

Re:RIA's need more than HTML5/CSS/JavaScript (3, Insightful)

javacowboy (222023) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732355)

There's a reason why I specifically mentioned HTML5. Video, Canvas, Audio, SVG, Networking, Storage, multi-threading, etc. The platform meets and even exceeds the Flash and Silverlight platforms.

P.S. Do development tools exist for these features? Flash/Flex, Silverlight and JavaFX already have development tools and IDEs.

Re:RIA's need more than HTML5/CSS/JavaScript (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27732593)

Try Netbeans. It has kick-ass code completion for Javascript, CSS, and HTML. Including the HTML5 features. SVG is best created in a tool like Inkscape or some other vector drawing program.

I assume you know how to create and edit standards-compliant images?

Re:RIA's need more than HTML5/CSS/JavaScript (1)

javacowboy (222023) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732659)

As much as I love Netbeans, I have to say that their JavaScript debugger is still a little rusty. Hopefully they'll iron out the kinks for 6.7.

Re:RIA's need more than HTML5/CSS/JavaScript (1)

squoozer (730327) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732917)

...and we will get good cross browser support for all those features in 2196, until then the world will be running Flash, Silverlight and JavaFX in that order (shame beause I think JavaFX actually has quite a lot to offer). Even if cross browser support isn't required getting those features into IE in a reasonable time frame is not likely.

Re:RIA's need more than HTML5/CSS/JavaScript (1)

pallmall1 (882819) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732279)

Besides, JavaFX has distinct advantages over Flash and Silverlight. It integrates seamlessly with server-side Java code. It also shares the same APIs with JavaFX Mobile, which allows mobile and RIA apps to share the same code.

The JavaFX "advantages" are promises [java.net] that don't yet exist (read the comments in the link).

Re:RIA's need more than HTML5/CSS/JavaScript (1)

javacowboy (222023) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732493)

Besides, JavaFX has distinct advantages over Flash and Silverlight. It integrates seamlessly with server-side Java code. It also shares the same APIs with JavaFX Mobile, which allows mobile and RIA apps to share the same code.

The JavaFX "advantages" are promises [java.net] that don't yet exist (read the comments in the link).

What are you talking about? JavaFX can already use the Java API and it already has a mobile component. The author of the link you sent me only said that work remains to be done for tooling and performance. There was no mention of work needing to be done to integrate with the Java API or the mobile component, which was introduced with JavaFX 1.1.

Re:Glassfish is a Must-Have for Oracle (1)

RightSaidFred99 (874576) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732209)

Yeah, I don't know how Glassfish got lumped in with the "pet projects" moniker. I think whoever wrote the summary doesn't know what it is.

Re:Glassfish is a Must-Have for Oracle (2, Insightful)

arthurp (1250620) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732447)

I'd be really sad to see JavaFX die. I know people hate applets and although I don't agree with them I can't really blame them. Applets have done some serious sucking over the years. But I think times have changed a lot. And especially with all the new JVM languages popping up I'd be really sad to see Flash continue to be the goto technology for interactive graphical web apps. This is partly because I hate flash though.

Re:Glassfish is a Must-Have for Oracle (4, Insightful)

msobkow (48369) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732527)

More to the point, Glassfish has been sold with support to a number of companies. Unlike JavaFX (which has virtually no market share), a significant number of paying customers have bought into the Sun Application Server/Glassfish.

In other words, Sun has contractual obligations to continue with Glassfish, and Oracle has inherited those obligations. They can't just drop support.

Re:Glassfish is a Must-Have for Oracle (1)

hubert.lepicki (1119397) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732853)

Just wondering how big this number is... I am into web applications business for quite some time now, but can't remember of any company using Glassfish for deployment of Java apps. People use JBoss for Java, Passenger for Rails, and ASP for .net stuff, but I didn't came across a single Glassfish production environment...

Re:Glassfish is a Must-Have for Oracle (2, Funny)

Chyeld (713439) | more than 5 years ago | (#27733029)

In other words, Sun has contractual obligations to continue with Glassfish, and Oracle has inherited those obligations. They can't just drop support.

Wanna bet?

Dear Valued Customer,

As you may already know, Sun has recently been acquired by Oracle. As part of this process, Oracle also inherited the service contracts you held with Sun. However, due to the current economic climate, some of Sun's less profitable product lines need to be discontinued or consolidated into existing product lines Oracle already has.

As such, Oracle is declaring that the following products: X, Y, and Z are being end of lifted as of December 31st 2009 and will no longer be supported Jan 1st 2010 and onward.

If you held a service contract for any of these products, you have the following options:

Accept a pro-rated refund on the remaining length of your service contract along with a nominal cancellation fee.

Contact your Oracle sales rep for a one time offer: a heavily discounted conversion from your current product and contract to Oracle's X, Y, and Z Squared server and a corresponding service contract covering the remainder of the length of your old one.

We do apologize for this inconvenience, but are confident that once you use our XYZ server, you will not look back.

Sincerely,
Bob

Re:Glassfish is a Must-Have for Oracle (2, Funny)

rackserverdeals (1503561) | more than 5 years ago | (#27733459)

Dude! I hope you didn't reply to that message and give any personal information. It's clearly a phishing attempt, and a poor one at that!

First, the Sun/Oracle deal hasn't been finalized.
Second, you can see their form message software screwed up and didn't replace the variables X, Y and Z with real products. I see that happening a lot in spam lately.
Third, they didn't sign it with a full name, title, and contact information.

Re:Glassfish is a Must-Have for Oracle (1)

mrtom852 (754157) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732631)

JavaFX is aimed at emerging markets - mobile and set top box. This is going to be around for a while but has been very slow off the mark (notably lack of Linux support - I'm not talking desktop here!) and needs a kick up the backside.

I'm not sure if Glassfish will survive in the long run. It has some great components, like grizzly, that will survive but at the other end of the scale it has parts that should be put down, like MQ.

Re:Glassfish is a Must-Have for Oracle (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27732865)

HTML5 is fine for crappy little MySpace style web pages and stuff, but in the professional world you want to maintain separation of concerns. HTML5 goes against all the good work that's been done over the last decade towards improving that and hence improving maintainability, portability and accessibility with the XHTML standards.

HTML5 is not fit for large scale business use, it's a kids standard taking us back to the days of old. If we want to make sure everyone can publish then we need to use web applications like YouTube, Wordpress and so on, bastardising the webs most important standard so it supports different styles of syntax meaning there's ambiguity when it comes to making use of it.

Leave the HTML markup to professionals who are competent enough to use standards like XHTML and make good use of separation of concerns, let them build web applications that the masses can publish easily with. Don't break the web with a shitty standard that effectively takes us back to the 90s where HTML was just a damn mess and we had the painful to look at AOL and Geocities homepages of old.

Re:Glassfish is a Must-Have for Oracle (2, Insightful)

rbanffy (584143) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732969)

I am astonished to hear Project Looking Glass is still around.

Re:Glassfish is a Must-Have for Oracle (1)

tcopeland (32225) | more than 5 years ago | (#27733189)

> JavaFX has been a solution looking for a problem

There certainly was a lot of energy poured into it, though. I feel bad for folks like Josh Marinacci [java.net] , who has been working on it for a while. Seems like every other Java Posse [javaposse.com] episode had some mention of JavaFX and its progress (or lack thereof).

Re:Glassfish is a Must-Have for Oracle (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27733261)

It's free as in freedom, or at least it's going to be once Sun gets it's act together.

The Linux version is likely to be released this summer (according to a high-end technologist from Sun's swedish section, whose lecture i attended last week). This is, obviously, a nice thing. The Flash IDE is closed-source, expensive and does not run on Linux.

Other than that, i've been told JavaFX performs very well, but i cannot confirm this. This would make sense, as the Java VM is quite fast after all.

Re:Glassfish is a Must-Have for Oracle (2, Informative)

rackserverdeals (1503561) | more than 5 years ago | (#27733363)

According to this blog post, Oracle is the biggest user of applets [andrejkoelewijn.com] in their Oracle Forms. The author thinks that moving oracle forms to javafx could be a big plus for Oracle and I think there are merits to what he says.

The popular alternative is Adobe Flash. It's been a while since I tried programming in actionscript but last time I did, I had lots of bumps and bruises from knocking my head against the wall.

The last release of Project Looking Glass was in January of 2007. I don't think there's been much going on with that. Since then, I think Sun has been contributing more to Compiz to get it working with Soliars.

I don't know if Orion was ever "the BEST" J2EE server, but it claims to have been the first fully J2EE compliant one.

Oracle didn't buy Orion, they licensed it and used it as the base of their Oracle Application Server. Don't know how that screwed it up since Orion still exists on it's own and isn't owned by Oracle.

Glassfish is the J2EE server reference implementation. It's important to keep it as a reference implementation and is becoming very popular.

I remember before Tomcat became the reference implementation for the Servlet spec, it was popular to use but hard to find hosting for. After it became the reference implementation (and performance improved) more hosts started offering it instead of (or in addition to) resin.

In the opensource J2EE server space, Glassfish is well behind JBoss, but more popular than Apache Geronimo and it is gaining. If they need to keep a reference implentation for the J2EE spec, it would likely be an open source project. JBoss I think is out because they can't get enough control of it, Geronimo is heavily backed by IBM, (who Oracle is competing with on the DB and middleware front) so that only leaves Glassfish.

Re:Glassfish is a Must-Have for Oracle (1)

thetoadwarrior (1268702) | more than 5 years ago | (#27733827)

Applets are no worse than anything else. The only difference is the price tag on Flash stops more people (at least those with a conscience) from making any old piece of shit and tossing it up on the web. Professionally done applets are excellent and the best solution to web apps so far.

http://www.wordle.net/ [wordle.net] is rather popular despite using an applet but that's because it's done right. It loads nearly instantly and it's not some awful collection of graphical effects tutorials thrown together.

JavaFx is used for more than Applets. It's used in mobile phones too. My main reason for ignoring it is it's basically Java but trying to be all trendy and written different.

I'll stick with normal Java until I have a reason to try JFX. It doesn't help that it's a Windows/mobile only thing.

NO (2, Insightful)

youngdev (1238812) | more than 5 years ago | (#27731609)

We need javafx to be ported to linux and wait until gf v3 is ready for release.

Re:NO (1)

multipartmixed (163409) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732869)

Um, gf3 was released _years_ ago, and nobody liked it because it was buggy as hell. Here is sample from one of the support forums, you'll see what I mean:

Dear Technical Support:

I'm currently running the latest version of GirlFriend and I've been having some problems lately. I've been running the same version of DrinkingBuddies 1.0 forever as my primary application, and all the GirlFriend releases I've tried have always conflicted with it. I hear that DrinkingBuddies won't crash if GirlFriend is run in background mode and the sound is turned off. But I'm embarrassed to say I can't find the switch to turn the sound off. I just run them separately, and it works okay.

Girlfriend also seems to have a problem co-existing with my Golf program, often trying to abort Golf with some sort of timing incompatibility. I probably should have stayed with GirlFriend 1.0, but I thought I might see better performance from GirlFriend 2.0. After months of conflicts and other problems, I consulted a friend who has had experience with GirlFriend 2.0. He said I probably didn't have enough cache to run GirlFriend 2.0, and eventually it would require a Token Ring to run properly. He was right -- as soon as I purged my cache, it uninstalled itself.

Shortly after that, I installed GirlFriend 3.0 beta. All the bugs were supposed to be gone, but the first time I used it, it gave me a virus anyway. I had to clean out my whole system and shut down for a while.

I very cautiously upgraded to GirlFriend 4.0. This time I used a SCSI probe first and also installed a virus protection program. It worked okay for a while until I discovered that GirlFriend 1.0 was still in my system. I tried running GirlFriend 1.0 again with GirlFriend 4.0 still installed, but GirlFriend 4.0 has a feature I didn't know about that automatically senses the presence of any other version of GirlFriend and communicates with it in some way, which results in the immediate removal of both versions.

The version I have now works pretty well, but there are still some problems. Like all versions of GirlFriend, it is written in some obscure language I can't understand, much less reprogram. Frankly I think there is too much attention paid to the look and feel rather than the desired functionality. Also, to get the best connections with your hardware, you usually have to use gold-plated contacts.

And I've never liked how GirlFriend is totally "object-oriented." A year ago, a friend of mine upgraded his version of GirlFriend to GirlFriendPlus 1.0, which is a Terminate and Stay Resident version of GirlFriend. He discovered that GirlFriendPlus 1.0 expires within a year if you don't upgrade to Fiancee 1.0. So he did, but soon after that, he had to upgrade to Wife 1.0, which he describes as a huge resource hog. It has taken up all his space, so he can't load anything else. One of the primary reasons he decided to go withWife 1.0 was because it came bundled with FreeSexPlus. Well, it turns out the resource allocation module of Wife 1.0 sometimes prohibits access to FreeSexPlus, particularly the new Plug-Ins he wanted to try. On top of that, Wife 1.0 must be running on a well warmed-up system before he can do anything. Although he did not ask for it, Wife 1.0 came with MotherInLaw which has an automatic pop-up feature he can't turn off.

I told him to try installing Mistress 1.0, but he said he heard if you try to run it without first uninstalling Wife 1.0, Wife 1.0 will delete MSMoney files before doing the uninstall itself. Then Mistress 1.0 won't install anyway because of insufficient resources.

Java is for Fags (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27731701)

Real men use .NET.

Yeah, I said it.

What are you gunna do about it? Mod me down like the punk bitch you are.

Fuck you.

Looking Glass (4, Interesting)

pete-classic (75983) | more than 5 years ago | (#27731745)

They're spending money on Looking Glass? I just went to the web site and they're still featuring the five-year-old demo video.

-Peter

Re:Looking Glass (5, Informative)

Unending (1164935) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732167)

It's worse than you think.
I worked on the project 3 years ago and it was a horrible mess.
They don't have any sort of 3D desktop concept all they have is a 2D desktop with 3D windows.
The underlying 3D system is impossibly complex and non-nonsensical.
Mouse clicks go through so many layers of checks that response time is ridiculous.
They are using Java3D, which is incredibly slow anyway.
To top all this off it doesn't look like they have changed anything in the last three years.
I might have a slightly tainted view and I haven't looked at the code in three years, but I'm still highly unimpressed.

Re:Looking Glass (-1, Flamebait)

FunkyELF (609131) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732457)

Mouse clicks go through so many layers of checks that response time is ridiculous.

Its written in Java so mentioning this is redundant.

Re:Looking Glass (5, Insightful)

fm6 (162816) | more than 5 years ago | (#27733723)

1998 called. It wants its Java cliches back.

Performance issues used to be a big problem with Java. That's long since been solved. The conventional wisdom was that these caused by Java being an "interpreted" language. That hasn't been true for a long time, and even when it was, it was only a minor factor in Java's performance issues.

Aside from the big overhead in firing up the runtime (still a problem, but not an issue for a service application, like Looking Glass) the biggest impact on Java application performance was bad source code compilers. Sun was in such a hurry to get the thing to market that all the early compilers were hastily adapted from C++ compilers, and created code that was inefficient and full of memory leaks — this on a platform that was specifically designed to make memory leaks impossible!

The Oracle acquisition is like a big second chance for Java, and a lot of other Sun technologies. Finally, they're under the control of a management hierarchy that doesn't consistently shoot itself in the foot!

Re:Looking Glass (1)

diegocgteleline.es (653730) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732857)

As far as I know, that proyect is dead. The last time I read something about it, it was about some X.org extensions that were added to the core.

and the problem would be... ? (1, Troll)

jipn4 (1367823) | more than 5 years ago | (#27731819)

I think Sun has spent way too much money and effort on Java. The result has been a lot of bloated, badly designed libraries. If Oracle cuts that back, I think Java will actually improve technically.

Better fish to fry (2, Interesting)

bogaboga (793279) | more than 5 years ago | (#27731877)

I think Oracle should just strike agreements with *all* PC OEMs to have Java shipped with whatever OS these OEMs are loading on PCs. I know Java is Open Source Software and that those who need it can download it free of charge.

What troubles me is the exercise of having to repeat the installation procedure on so many machines. I recently installed 47 systems, six of them Kubuntu 9.0.4 systems with KDE 4.2.2. and the rest were Windows XP systems. It was not fun.

So to Oracle..."You have better fish to fry...now do the needful." It will not hurt you (Oracle) in any way.

Java isn't (really) open source (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27732033)

Java isn't really open source, that's why it's a huge pain in the ass under Linux.

Yes, Sun released a version of Java under the GPL. It's the "next" version of Java, Java 7 or 1.7 or whatever they're deciding to call it.

The current version of Java, the one that everyone uses, is most definitely not open source. It's free, sure, but it's licensed in such a way that Linux distributions can't package it. (Easily - some have worked around it, but the bottom line is that installing Java 6 on Linux involves an interactive process. It can't be automated.)

The "open source" version of Java is missing large chunks of Java and is basically not at all ready.

So, Java isn't "really" open source. It's "going to be" at some point in the future - or at least it was. With Oracle in control, who knows.

(Sure, Oracle can't un-open source what was released - but since that isn't enough for a full version of Java anyway, it's not like it really matters.)

Java *IS* open source (5, Informative)

javacowboy (222023) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732267)

You don't know what you're talking about.

Java is open source. Most of the source code for Java has been released under the GPL.

They started by releasing the JDK 7 code under an open source license. They then backported this code to OpenJDK 6 by removing some of the JDK 7 features and testing it under the JDK 6 TCK (testing kit).

The latest version of OpenJDK 6 is available for installation on Ubuntu and Fedora via their respective package managers.

The only parts of the proprietary Java 6 that are missing from OpenJDK 6 are:

1) SNMP code.
2) Applet/JavaWebStart code (although they're in the process of open sourcing it.
3) Latest bugfixes since JDK 6 Update 7 but these are slowly finding their way to OpenJDK 6.

Please do some basic research before posting your misconceptions as "facts".

Re:Java *IS* open source (1)

Xtifr (1323) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732929)

You don't know what you're talking about.

Actually, it sounds like he does, since most of what you said agreed with what he said (as well as the facts).

Most of the source code for Java has been released under the GPL.

Most is not all. Java 6 is not open source, even if "most" of it is. Sun seems to get upset if you package up less-than-all of Java so "most" doesn't seem good enough.

The latest version of OpenJDK 6 is available for installation on Ubuntu and Fedora

The latest version of Java 6 is in the "non-free" repository on Debian and the "multiverse" (equivalent to non-free) on Ubuntu. Which you have to enable separately. GP may have exaggerated the difficulty of installing somewhat, but it's hardly automatic. And yes, there's OpenJDK, but we've already established that that's not the full system.

The only parts of the proprietary Java 6 that are missing from OpenJDK 6 are:

The parts that make it non-free? Look, we all know it's mostly there, inches from the finish line, but until the job is done, don't stand there in a flight suit proclaiming "mission accomplished", thank you very much. And don't sit around bashing those who point out that the job isn't done, 'cause they're right. You can say (and I would have agreed with you) that it's close enough for a lot of purposes, and it's easy to exaggerate the amount of work that remains, and making a big deal out of the amount that remains is silly, and all that, yes, but the job still isn't done!

Re:Java *IS* open source (1)

saleenS281 (859657) | more than 5 years ago | (#27733437)

SNMP and java webstart aren't "large chunks" and don't make the product "unusable".

Re:Java *IS* open source (1)

javacowboy (222023) | more than 5 years ago | (#27733781)

You don't know what you're talking about.

Actually, it sounds like he does, since most of what you said agreed with what he said (as well as the facts).

He said that Java 6 wasn't open source and that it was next to impossible to install it on Linux. That means he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Most of the source code for Java has been released under the GPL.

Most is not all. Java 6 is not open source, even if "most" of it is. Sun seems to get upset if you package up less-than-all of Java so "most" doesn't seem good enough.

OpenJDK 6 passed Sun's TCK, which is what the JCP agrees needs to be done for a runtime to be called "Java". SNMP is not considered essential for this test to pass. The browser plugin is also not considered part of "core" Java. Therefore, Java 6 has been open sourced.

The latest version of OpenJDK 6 is available for installation on Ubuntu and Fedora

The latest version of Java 6 is in the "non-free" repository on Debian and the "multiverse" (equivalent to non-free) on Ubuntu. Which you have to enable separately. GP may have exaggerated the difficulty of installing somewhat, but it's hardly automatic. And yes, there's OpenJDK, but we've already established that that's not the full system.

What's your point? It's possible to run Netbeans and Eclipse on OpenJDK 6, which are two heavy client-side apps. Since OpenJDK 6 has passed the TCK, it's a complete Java runtime. The only things missing are SNMP and the plugin. Since IcedTea has implemented the Java plugin, it's possible to have the full Java experience with OpenJDK 6, which is available on the package managers of many Linux distros.

With the latest version of Ubuntu, it's possible to install the proprietary version of Sun Java 6 without tweaking any settings.

The only parts of the proprietary Java 6 that are missing from OpenJDK 6 are:

The parts that make it non-free? Look, we all know it's mostly there, inches from the finish line, but until the job is done, don't stand there in a flight suit proclaiming "mission accomplished", thank you very much. And don't sit around bashing those who point out that the job isn't done, 'cause they're right. You can say (and I would have agreed with you) that it's close enough for a lot of purposes, and it's easy to exaggerate the amount of work that remains, and making a big deal out of the amount that remains is silly, and all that, yes, but the job still isn't done!

Since it passed the TCK, the job is done. You can also get an open source Java browser plugin. I don't know what you're trying to prove.

Re:Java *IS* open source (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27733131)

Once you've had Mac [apple.com], you can't go back!

I agree. Macs will fuck you over and/or dumb you down to the point where using a Real Computer would be impossible.

(Fuck you, Apple. GET LDAP SUPPORT WORKING CORRECTLY!)

Re:Java isn't (really) open source (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27732341)

Get user-friendly packages of the open source version of Java 6 under the GPL2 with classpath exception here:

    http://openjdk.java.net/install/ [java.net]

That's Java 6, not "the next version".

There was no license to accept when I installed it on my Ubuntu box using apt-get.

Mercurial trees for both Java 6 and 7:

    http://hg.openjdk.java.net/jdk6/jdk6 [java.net]
    http://hg.openjdk.java.net/jdk7/jdk7 [java.net]

Re:Java isn't (really) open source (4, Informative)

LDoggg_ (659725) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732557)

Wrong. Wrong on every point.

Java isn't really open source, that's why it's a huge pain in the ass under Linux.

It's in the standard repos on most distros now. It's not any different than installing python or perl or any other language/platform.

Yes, Sun released a version of Java under the GPL. It's the "next" version of Java, Java 7 or 1.7 or whatever they're deciding to call it.

They released the 1.6 JVM and libraries that it was legally allowed to.

The current version of Java, the one that everyone uses, is most definitely not open source. It's free, sure, but it's licensed in such a way that Linux distributions can't package it. (Easily - some have worked around it, but the bottom line is that installing Java 6 on Linux involves an interactive process. It can't be automated.)

Everyone should be using 1.6 because 1.7 isn't released yet. 1.6 is GPL and open source.
That "interactive" process was clicking on the EULA before it was open sourced. Not that big of a deal then, but it's not even an issue anymore.

The "open source" version of Java is missing large chunks of Java and is basically not at all ready.

Big chunks? The JVM and libs were almost complete. The small parts that couldn't be released were 3rd library implementations that Sun didn't have rights to release as GPL. The GNU Classpath project filled in the gaps almost from day.

So, Java isn't "really" open source. It's "going to be" at some point in the future - or at least it was. With Oracle in control, who knows.

It is open source. Really.

(Sure, Oracle can't un-open source what was released - but since that isn't enough for a full version of Java anyway, it's not like it really matters.)

No, it does matter. Billions of IT dollars are still being spent on projects using the java platform.
I'm sure Oracle would have rather had Sun's implemenation all to themselves, but then they should have bought Sun a couple of years ago.

Re:Java isn't (really) open source (2, Interesting)

hubert.lepicki (1119397) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732937)

Well, I AM using openjdk for commercial development with Java... it's 99% free software. Sound already works, GUI/3d works, web start... well, with 50% chance ;). No JavaFX yet but I'm sure they'll discontinue it anyway. The point is that Java (OpenJDK) is usable environment for developing and running GUI and web apps. Despite some missing bits it fullfills my needs in 100% without any closed-source blobs. It is not like with OpenSolaris (I feared that they'll go this way), where you can't use it without kernel binaries - here you can just grab a copy, compile and use.

Re:Better fish to fry (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27732111)

So use a slipstreaming process to integrate it into the disk. Part of the windows integration you can specify some runonce commands on first logon and have it execute the commandline for the unattended java installer on a network or even put on the CD along with everything else.

Plus you can script the installer to be full automated with a one line batch file that you just execute.

Java is stupidly simple to install, hard part was getting what flags were needed.

Re:Better fish to fry (1)

mR.bRiGhTsId3 (1196765) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732681)

Ah, but you still won't be able to get in the *buntu machines, because the ubuntus have backed themselves into a corner with the whole, one CD at all costs thing. The JRE is just too heavy to come on the CD.

Re:Better fish to fry (1)

Zarluk (976365) | more than 5 years ago | (#27733227)

I recently installed 47 systems, six of them Kubuntu 9.0.4 systems with KDE 4.2.2. and the rest were Windows XP systems. It was not fun.

If it was the other way around (six windows machines and the rest Kubuntu ones), it would be completely different, I know ;-)

You could automate the linux installation, while dealing with the "insert disk,next, next, finish, reboot, (insert disk,next, next, finish, reboot)" windows cicle of installation, and see what system installs the first.

Re:Better fish to fry (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27733619)

And if it was all Solaris, you could create one JumpStart server, an install script and you're set.

JRuby will surely go. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27731911)

Put the money into JParrot.

Re:JRuby will surely go. (1)

argent (18001) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732291)

Put the money into JParrot.

I'm sure there's a great Monty JPython joke in there, somewhere.

Re:JRuby will surely go. (1)

Random BedHead Ed (602081) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732623)

JParrot's passed on! It's no more! It has ceased to be! It's expired and gone to meet its maker! It's a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed it to the perch it'd be pushing up the daisies! Its metabolic processes are now history! It's off the twig! It's kicked the bucket, it's shuffled off its mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-JPARROT!!

How much of it is Open Source? (4, Insightful)

argent (18001) | more than 5 years ago | (#27731941)

One would hope that if the Open Source projects like Project Looking Glass, are worthwhile... they will be picked up by people who are using them. If they can open-source others rather than just killing them at least some can stay alive without showing up on the bottom line.

History (4, Interesting)

UseCase (939095) | more than 5 years ago | (#27731977)

I remember thinking the same thing when Adobe bought out Macromedia. I think there is hope for some of the larger more useful pet projects but Oracles primary is making there a new acquisition profitable. Anything not strong enough to adequately monetize will probably be Open Sourced or shelf-ed.

So what observations can be made from other companies in our industry that have acquired companies with a strong library of technologies? What has lasted and what has fallen by the wayside historically speaking?

It all depends. (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27732197)

Oracle wants to make money so a lot has to depend on the financial viability of each project.

In my opinion the following will probably happen.

1. JavaFX - This will probably continue only because Sun has put a TON of effort behind it and contrary to other post it is not another Applet. Microsoft has Silverlight, Adobe has Flash and Sun/Oracle will have an open source alternative with a free development platform called JavaFX.

2. Glassfish - This will become the reference implementation for J2EE and Oracle will kill (as best they can) development on large scalability features out of it.

3. MySQL - Oracle will try and kill it the best they can. Their focus will be to convert these users over to the free version of Oracle's own DB.

4. NetBeans - This is a tough one. I am a heavy Netbeans user, but I see it being replaced by Jdeveloper now that Jdeveloper is free. I could see some of the features of Netbeans moving in to Jdeveloper. My hope is that they could take Jdevelopers speed and move it in to Netbeans :-)

5. Hardware - I would guess that Oracle will focus the hardware to run their Application stack the best. I don't see it going away any time soon.

6. Java - Oracle will do no better or worse than Sun in managing Java. Both companies have their issues and strengths.

7. OpenOffice - Oracle will probably keep some developers on this project. It will probably only get a small amount of love because of the revenue that it brings in.

8. Solaris - I see all of the cool features of Solaris (dtrace) moved over to Oracles Linux (if possible). That Linux version will run on "standard" X86 hardware or for "full support" it will run on the Oracle hardware (Sparc). This process will probably take 5 or more years.

9. People - It has been said but I expect over 10,000 employees from Sun to be let go.

10. Suns current CEO will go down in history as one of the guys who ruined a good company.

Re:It all depends. (4, Interesting)

Bill, Shooter of Bul (629286) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732583)

Well, They specifically said that they were going to keep funding mysql already, while specifically saying that they weren't going to comment on the future of open office. So I think that says something.

Unlikely (4, Insightful)

Eravnrekaree (467752) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732617)

Pulling funding from JavaFX would probably be a bad idea since JavaFX is meant to keep Java competitive with .Net and Flash platforms which are rapidly taking over web and application markets. There is a big market in content design so it seems ridiculous to cut funding to those projects and they would shoot themselves in the foot. I see it more likely that MySQl is in danger, since this is heavily overlapped with oracles own database applications.

Re:Unlikely (1)

DuckDodgers (541817) | more than 5 years ago | (#27733039)

The .NET and Flash platforms represent an enormous market.

But Oracle and the JavaFX community have their work cut out for them if they expect JavaFX to gain a real foothold in this market. Flash is ridiculously dominant.

I suspect the best we can hope is that competition from Silverlight and JavaFX forces Adobe to make Flash fully open source. I wouldn't be upset if JavaFX makes significant inroads, but I honestly don't see it happening.

Re:Unlikely (1)

BrainInAJar (584756) | more than 5 years ago | (#27733475)

I see it more likely that MySQl is in danger, since this is heavily overlapped with oracles own database applications.

Just like they did with BerkeleyDB ... oh, wait...

Oracle's New 'Hardware' company (3, Interesting)

mpapet (761907) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732673)

I would argue hardware is where Oracle saw the value in Sun. IMHO, there should be a home for Solaris at Oracle simply because it's a strong, viable server OS.

History has shown Sun has terrible problems running open source projects larger than their own paid contributors. I don't see Oracle improving or even interested in this.

Most of Sun's software projects will fade into oblivion as GPL'd abandonware because nearly all of them are also-ran projects started as Sun's version of things like Flash.

Hmmm; Lets see (1)

WindBourne (631190) | more than 5 years ago | (#27733631)

Oracle has been pushing Oracle on Linux for more than several years. They have made it their preferred OS. Oracle's stated goal is not just to own the server, but the desktop space. In server space, Linux is now more prevelant than is Soliar. In addition, it has more in-roads into the desktop than Solaris.

But you think that Oracle bought Sun for its hardware and will now switch to Solaris, and drop Linux? Is that correct?

Two wrongs make enterprisy things. (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27732693)

Can't wait to see where Oracle takes Java.

Hopefully somewhere deep in the woods for murder-suicide pack.

No. (1)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732879)

They will pull funding on all of the projects.

Got your copy of the code you need yet? Better do it soon.

Project Kenai (5, Informative)

multipartmixed (163409) | more than 5 years ago | (#27732987)

I just hope they don't go pulling the plug on Project Kenai [kenai.com] .

Kenai is Sun's version of SourceForge/GitHub/Google Code. I'm hosting a project there and it works well enough, a few minor tweaks and it will be fantastic. I chose it because they had bugzilla, mercurial, forums with feeds and a rudimentary wiki with syntax I didn't hate. And a low-barrier to entry (I am more than capable of setting all that stuff up myself, but I'd rather spend the time hacking code).

Funny, though, I only just realized why I must have received that "please evangelize Kenai!" message in my inbox this morning...

Open Source Java (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27733023)

Now that Java is open source, I expect Oracle will let the open source crowd access any of the pet java projects.

There will be the "Industry Java", well funded, and of course, a few little open source java implementations, free class libraries, and other small open source projects for niche markets, or those who can't afford a compiler, etc.

Oracle needs to focus on profitability. Abandoning java to the free but high-quality open source programmers will allow Oracle to focus on their core competencies.

oracle + sun = bad (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27733195)

how long before Oracle won't certify on hardware that is not SUN? They already cut VMWare out of the loop by not certifying ESX as a viable Virtualization platform for Oracle Ebiz, etc.

No more Wonderland?! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27733291)

Oh no... and Wonderland 0.5 was about to come out.

OpenOffice (2, Interesting)

crow (16139) | more than 5 years ago | (#27733381)

It's all speculation at this point, but the project I'm concerned about is Open Office.

Java is sun's pet project (1)

heroine (1220) | more than 5 years ago | (#27733457)

That's like saying Oracle is going to pull Java. The very reason we all have to use Java for our day jobs is because Sun keeps pumping money into odd projects & promoting it. Everyone likes designing Java API's but Sun is the only one making progress on implementation. How many API's would get implemented if Sun didn't spend the money? Android still has just 1 implementation.

Makes sense.. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27733561)

Sun got involved in many open source projects without a clear idea business model on how to monetize the projects. So I wouldn't be surprised if Oracle pulls the plug on a lot of these projects if they believe it won't contribute much to their bottom line.

Luckily Java is GPL'd (3, Insightful)

ManWithIceCream (1503883) | more than 5 years ago | (#27733617)

I'm so happy that Sun managed to release Java under the GPL before it was bought. I can't imagined what would happen if Oracle got a hold of Java without the community being able to fork it if nessecary.
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