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Secret EU Open Source Migration Study Leaked

kdawson posted more than 5 years ago | from the why-they-stick-with-office dept.

Government 311

Elektroschock writes "For 4 years MEP Marco Cappato tried to get access to the EU Council's 2005 open source migration study because he is a member of a responsible IT oversight committee in the European Parliament. His repeated requests for access were denied. Now they have finally been answered because the Council's study has escaped into the wild (PDF in French and English). Here is a quick look. It is embarrassing! Gartner, when asked if there were any mature public Linux installations in Europe, claimed that there were none. Michael Silver said, 'I have not spoken to any sizable deployments of Linux on the desktop and only one or two StarOffice deployments.' Gartner spread patent and TCO FUD. Also, the European Patent Office participated in the project, although it is not an EU institution."

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Why do we let Gartner Continue? (5, Insightful)

StCredZero (169093) | more than 5 years ago | (#27964775)

Someone needs to pull a John Stewart/Jim Cramer on Gartner. These guys spread so much BS, yet continue to be considered an authority.

Re:Why do we let Gartner Continue? (4, Insightful)

noundi (1044080) | more than 5 years ago | (#27964855)

Sure you can arrest the drug dealer, put him in prison for a few years and then release him without changing anything or you can go after the head [microsoft.com] of the operation and solve the problem permanently. The only party that benefits from this is Microsoft, no fucking bullshit-FUD-internet-forum-made-up word doubt about it.

Re:Why do we let Gartner Continue? (3, Funny)

noundi (1044080) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965163)

The strange duality [slashdot.org] of slashdot. One gets -1 troll, the other one +5 Insightful.

Re:Why do we let Gartner Continue? (2, Insightful)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | more than 5 years ago | (#27964907)

Unfortunately, their cutting public humiliation, while well deserved, would probably be a ratings nightmare. If you aren't familiar with the jargon, correct technical analysis and bullshit technobabble look virtually identical. Stewart owned Cramer because Cramer made the mistake of fucking up in a domain that virtually everybody cares about, and most people know at least a little about.

Re:Why do we let Gartner Continue? (2, Informative)

rackserverdeals (1503561) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965293)

Stewart owned Cramer because Cramer made the mistake of fucking up in a domain that virtually everybody cares about, and most people know at least a little about.

Stewart owned Cramer because Cramer spilled the beans about how easy it is to manipulate the market and gave examples of things he would do as a hedge fund manager.

It was a video for thestreet.com or something like that. I guess back then he thought the internet was just full of investors and pedophiles and there would be some sort of honor among thieves and they wouldn't rat him out. But once the web was replaced by tubes, people that were afraid of spiders started joining the party.

There's some guy that puts videos collages of cramer on youtube showing how he completely backtracks what he says to make himself look good.

Can't believe that they keep him on the air. Anyone that listens to this guy must not watch the show regularly or have a very poor short term memory.

Re:Why do we let Gartner Continue? (2, Funny)

Jugalator (259273) | more than 5 years ago | (#27964935)

But... But... Gartner says they're a useful institution. Gartner!

Gartner helps EU redefine open standards (5, Informative)

bosson (793519) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965131)

Gartner also made the case that EU governments should not abandon open standards, but rather redefine open standards by removing royalty free use. Thats basically tossing the success story of the Internet out the window and still using it as branding name for the new EIFv2 "European Interoperability Framework" See EU-commission pages at: http://ec.europa.eu/idabc/en/document/7728 [europa.eu] and a post about it here: http://bosson.blogspot.com/2009/05/stealing-free-from-open-standards.html [blogspot.com]

Re:Why do we let Gartner Continue? (4, Insightful)

elrous0 (869638) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965137)

Well, ARE there any "sizable deployments of Linux on the desktop" in Europe (in companies and government, I mean--not on some geek's home PC)? It seems to me that if you're going to refute a study, you should start by showing they're actually wrong.

Re:Why do we let Gartner Continue? (3, Insightful)

c-reus (852386) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965241)

is LHC running Windows?

Re:Why do we let Gartner Continue? (2, Insightful)

rackserverdeals (1503561) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965485)

is LHC running Windows?

Do they have a large deployment of Linux desktops? Sounds like they're just using it for their grid.

Re:Why do we let Gartner Continue? (5, Informative)

guruevi (827432) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965433)

Yes there are. They have been in the news. There have been instances in the UK and France since 2006, there are many schools and educational institutions as well as companies that have made the switch. I know in the Netherlands and Belgium government agencies have been looking into it and if I'm correct a lot of the ex-Soviet countries that are now part of the EU (Hungary, Poland, ...) and the Scandinavians have less advertised but nonetheless important conversions.

Gartner is a sock puppet for Microsoft and everybody in the industry knows that (they made the analysis that Windows XP before SP1 was safer than Linux by comparing it to Red Hat Linux 5.3 (not RHEL, the original 5.3))

Re:Why do we let Gartner Continue? (4, Informative)

Ed Avis (5917) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965795)

The study was in 2005, so to show it was wrong you need to find examples of widespread Linux deployments in Europe that existed then. Not deployments that started in 2006, or governments that 'have been looking into it'.

Re:Why do we let Gartner Continue? (2, Interesting)

rackserverdeals (1503561) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965923)

I'm not saying you're wrong but you haven't refuted the claim regarding large desktop deployments in the EU.

Here's one [desktoplinux.com] that is large but probably hasn't been deployed and isn't in the EU.

Also, since the study is 5 years old, you would need to find references of large desktop deployments in the EU that are at least that old.

Re:Why do we let Gartner Continue? (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27965521)

let's see from the top of my head:
- all government and schools in extramadura in spain
- schools in gran canaria
- french police (still migrating)
- munich

and those are just the ones that immediately come to mind, there's undoubtfully more if you dig a bit.

Re:Why do we let Gartner Continue? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27965601)

French Police

Re:Why do we let Gartner Continue? (5, Insightful)

Nutria (679911) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965177)

While I dislike Gartner about as much as anyone on this list, we must remember that this report is 5 YEARS OLD. I would be surprised if there WERE any large-scale mature Linux desktop sites back then.

Still, it's a steaming pile of FUD: before companies started rolling out Windows in a big way, how many large-scale Windows sites were there?

Re:Why do we let Gartner Continue? (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27965233)

I used to work for a small company that developed an enterprise software package that competed successfully with incredibly expensive products from the big players (IBM, CA, etc.) Yet a certain IT research company never mentioned our product in their comparitive reviews. Until, at their suggestion, we took out a subscription to their BS reports. I've always been amused by this coincidence.

Re:Why do we let Gartner Continue? (1)

CarpetShark (865376) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965935)

Someone needs to pull a John Stewart/Jim Cramer on Gartner.

When it comes to the Machinations of government and open source vs. corporate products, something tells me that Woodward & Bernstein would be more appropriate.

EU sucks. Fuck that kumbayah shit. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27964787)

I'll take localized, representative government over a centralized unelected dictatorship any day. So will any educated American. I can't believe you Eurotrash allowed yourselves to be trampled on by your leaders like that! When I was in Spain, I spoke to a cab driver about what life there was like. He said that the only thing that changed under the EU was that everything got more expensive. Big fucking surprise, huh?

Re:EU sucks. Fuck that kumbayah shit. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27964877)

Can you call this cab driver up and ask him a few more questions? Like, which stocks to buy, what the capitol of Ontario is, and what tomorrow's winning lotto numbers will be? Thanks!

Re:EU sucks. Fuck that kumbayah shit. (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27964987)

Your point? How is asking an average EU citizen what life under some kind of unelected metagovernment not relevant? I'm talking about a native Spaniard here, not your averge diaper-headed cafe bomber that you find driving around a cab in NYC.

Re:EU sucks. Fuck that kumbayah shit. (3, Insightful)

tolan-b (230077) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965123)

Well racist troll or not I feel compelled to point you don't know what you're talking about. I'm native of the UK, currently living in Spain, and I can tell you your cab driver doesn't know shit.

Since it joined the EU Spain has received massive investment from the EU, which it has used to modernise in all sorts of ways and has gone from a stagnant low GDP economy to being one of the leading economies in Europe.

The UK on the other hand has benefited greatly from having to take on a modicum of human rights law from the EU which its leaders (and popular press) have hated but IMHO have been a huge boon to human rights in the country. Of course the UK government is doing its best to trample all over those rights still but are repeatedly slapped down when they over-step the mark.

Re:EU sucks. Fuck that kumbayah shit. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27965197)

Cab drivers are notorious complainers. So are Spaniards. Put them together, and well, you should already know what to expect.

What your international relations expert - I mean cab driver forgot to mention was that:

1. Spanish currency went from being a bit over half worth half of what a dollar is worth to being substantially more valuable than the dollar. This isn't the EU - it's the Euro, which is rapidly becoming the world standard for currency. Costs went up in some cases, but their currency finally has a respectable value.

2. Now any European can legally move to and work in any European country. Pretty fucking cool if you ask me (I am a Spanish citizen and an American citizen)

3. Other shit that I really don't know because I'm no expert either.

All I'm saying is that your cabby was a belly-aching complainer and left out the most significant changes that Europeans witnessed with the formation of the EU.

Oh noes! (4, Insightful)

EveryNickIsTaken (1054794) | more than 5 years ago | (#27964801)

Mod me down if you want, but Linux needs to go "full retard" in order to reach the masses. Essentially, a 6 year old and a 96 year old need to be able to use the system. If they can't, start over.

Re:Oh noes! (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27964859)

Mod me down if you want, but Linux needs to go "full retard" in order to reach the masses.

Essentially, a 6 year old and a 96 year old need to be able to use the system. If they can't, start over.

And that is precisely what Ubuntu is trying to do. It is a matter of opinion as the whether they are succeeding, but I believe that they are.

Re:Oh noes! (3, Interesting)

muckracer (1204794) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965263)

> precisely what Ubuntu is trying to do. It is a matter of opinion
> as the whether they are succeeding, but I believe that they are.

At the latest when my GF wanted to burn a simple mp3 file and Brasero mumbled something about an "missing gstreamer plugin" she said, that (Ubuntu) Linux is still too complicated for normal users. I couldn't really argue with her, just explain the Why's and How's of proprietary stuff and the legal issues of their use. Installed the restricted stuff (which she'd have had no idea to even look for!) and she was set and likes it.

Another point in the slides of TFA was, that just because Linux is free it's not inexpensive. True that. Just spoke to the director of IT for a large/well-known european city and he too said, he doesn't see a business point for Linux (and he likes it personally). Basically the Unix side is taken by AIX (license costs per WS/Server are negligible, especially for a rich town) and the Windows side is, well, gonna stay that way (all city desktops are going Vista).
So Linux, despite the fact that the official city site runs on it is basically kept on board just to have the know-how around. That, however, costs salaries and if several admin's pull 100k/y each then I can see, how from a business point of view Linux doesn't make sense atm.. Rock and a hard place for adoption and likely in other locations you'll find similar situations.

Re:Oh noes! (2, Insightful)

jedidiah (1196) | more than 5 years ago | (#27964865)

A modern 6 year old can move between Windows, Linux and MacOS and not even realize they are different operating sytsems.

Re:Oh noes! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27964913)

> A modern 6 year old can move between Windows, Linux and MacOS and not even realize they are different operating sytsems.

A modern 6 year old can move between Windows, Linux, FreeBSD, and MacOS and not even realize they are different operating sytsems.

There, fixed that for you.

Re:Oh noes! (1)

jedidiah (1196) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965023)

And you have personally witnessed this?

I have.

I am not some bitter FreeBSD user hiding out in his mother's basement.

Re:Oh noes! (5, Funny)

discord5 (798235) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965475)

I am not some bitter FreeBSD user hiding out in his mother's basement.

Goddamnit, for the last time, it's not a basement, it's my command centre.

Re:Oh noes! (1)

BlueStrat (756137) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965667)

And you have personally witnessed this?

I have.

I am not some bitter FreeBSD user hiding out in his mother's basement.

Well, to be fair, PC-BSD [pcbsd.org] rivals Ubuntu in ease-of-use and simplicity for desktop users IMHO.

Of course YMMV, blah blah, yadda yadda...

Strat

Re:Oh noes! (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27965253)

> A modern 6 year old can move between Windows, Linux and MacOS and not even realize they are different operating sytsems.

A modern 6 year old can move between Windows, Linux, FreeBSD, and MacOS and not even realize they are different operating sytsems.

A modern 6 year old can move between Windows, Linux, FreeBSD, and MacOS and not even realize they are operating sytsems.

There, fixed that for you. (what's a sytsem!?)

Re:Oh noes! (1)

sukotto (122876) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965415)

That's mainly because they mostly only care about the web browser.

Re:Oh noes! (1)

LordLimecat (1103839) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965897)

Is that any different than 80% of users out there?

Re:Oh noes! (5, Insightful)

noundi (1044080) | more than 5 years ago | (#27964881)

Was the article not clear in any fucking way? Linux needs Microsoft to stop manipulating parliaments to reach the masses. Period.

Re:Oh noes! (5, Interesting)

Corporate Troll (537873) | more than 5 years ago | (#27964899)

Essentially, a 6 year old and a 96 year old need to be able to use the system.

Actually, those two demographics are the easiest to convert. While my mom isn't 96 by a long stretch, she uses Ubuntu and has no problems whatsoever. Her computer literacy is close to 0.

The problem users are those we call "power users". People that have used Windows for years and know the ins-and-outs, but do not know them deep enough. They can pretty much be found in the 20-65 demographics, also known as those of working age. My dad falls in the power-user demographic and he still uses WinXP. That said, he is very open to Linux and understands it well enough to use it.

Do note that you said "use". The system still has to be set up by someone who knows what he does.

Re:Oh noes! (1)

loutr (626763) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965833)

The system still has to be set up by someone who knows what he does.

If the hardware is supported, Ubuntu is much easier to install and set up than Windows.

A LiveCD gets you to a full desktop, just click Install, answer the same questions as windows (presented in a sexier way), and about 20mn later you have a ready-to-use system, software and all.

Actually I had my tech-illiterate sister install Ubuntu netbook remix on her eeepc, she managed just fine*. I showed her how to use synaptic and ubuntu-fr.org (wonderful french wiki, written in "full retard mode") and she hasn't asked me any question since. Give her a Windows XP install CD, and she'll come crying for help because her wifi adapter or webcam isn't automagically recognized, or because she can't open her word documents.

If the hardware doesn't work out of the box it can be a PITA to get it to work, but then again Joe User won't be able to find and install Windows drivers on the internets either. And on my 3 machines (gaming PC, eeepc 901, and HTPC with a digital TV tuner), every single piece of hardware was working out of the box with the latest Ubuntu, except the nvidia cards which needed the proprietary driver to be fully usable, though that just took a couple of clicks.

*To be fair I had to "help" her, but only by repeating "yes, this is the correct choice, click that, don't be afraid". Amazing how bright people manage to completely turn off their brain when in front of a computer. :)

Re:Oh noes! (1)

LordLimecat (1103839) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965931)

I would argue that an idiot could set the system up for basic web use provided he is given the simple directive "stick the cd in, reboot, hit f12, and choose CD". Ubuntu installation is pretty idiot proof at this point provided you dont care if it formats your disk.

Re:Oh noes! (3, Informative)

DeBaas (470886) | more than 5 years ago | (#27964911)

Actuall a PC system (http://simpc.nl/) created especially for the elderly is based on Linux (Gentoo to be precise). That little device has a UI that is kept very simple and foolproof. Read only system, just some user files locally and remote (synced)

Same concept can easily be used for six year olds. I believe in this way Linux is even more suited for the 6 and 96 year old.

Re:Oh noes! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27965339)

Ion? Foolproof? In one sentence? Muahahahahaha.

Re:Oh noes! (1)

buchner.johannes (1139593) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965407)

Actually a PC system (http://simpc.nl/) created especially for the elderly is based on Linux (Gentoo to be precise).

I imagine updating will be fun for them.

[I use gentoo myself and it is awesome, yet not for everyone.]

Re:Oh noes! (1)

DeBaas (470886) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965603)

Users probably don't get portage. I assume they use an image approach. Have a build system (fully writable), update until satisfied and then create a new image based on the updated system. I would use a read-only squasfs probably.
Users would just get the new image.

The users are unlikely to see any of the internals of the system.

Re:Oh noes! (2, Informative)

Jawn98685 (687784) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965009)

Why would I mod you down? I have the points to do it right now, BTW. Your argument is sound. Your knowledge of the current state of Linux desktop distributions though, not so much. The Xandros distro that came on my Eeepc is nothing if not "full-retard". Big friendly buttons that enable commonly used functions. Clearly, "ease of use" is not the show stopper here.
Start over.

Re:Oh noes! (2, Interesting)

MadKeithV (102058) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965337)

The show-stopper is store salesmen who don't actually believe that a "layman user" could get along just fine with Linux and not XP or Vista.
My job is an MS only shop. I still use a Linux netbook for presentations. It works just fine, and cost about as much as a non-OEM version of Windows Vista Home Basic alone..

Re:Oh noes! (1)

nyctopterus (717502) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965043)

I think this is completely wrong. Linux needs to go after the closest thing to its natural demographic first: power users who care about software freedom. Its got a lot of slack to pick up there before it starts to go after the much harder "full retard" end of the market. Unfortunately, I think the attitude of a lot of people seems to be that you either know everything (and can be treated as a peer), or nothing (and are therefore an idiot).

Re:Oh noes! (1)

Sp4c3 C4d3t (607082) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965257)

The real problem is lack of games. Nerds play games. Nerds set the trends in computing. The moment Linux gets as many games as Windows has, and released on the same day, that is when it can start to "take over". Whenever I talk to Microsofties about why they chose to use Windows Server over a free unixlike platform, their answer is "well, Windows can play all my games". It seems to go past them that you don't play games on your server, but this is how some people think.

Re:Oh noes! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27965057)

Windows is NOT a friendly OS for the extremely young or the elderly.

Most will hit ok on every dialog and you'll quickly have a virus ridden computer. That's if they can get around it.

Operating systems are meant to be USABLE to increase production. If you dumb them down too much you have AOL all over again.

Re:Oh noes! (1)

MickyTheIdiot (1032226) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965557)

I can back this up. My Mother isn't a savvy computer user but she's getting to the point she isn't bad, either. However she gets rogue anti-virus programs on one of her machines once a year. Why? Perhaps windows is TOO dumbed down and it's too easy to throw up a legitimate-looking window that says your computer as 2 kabillion viruses.

We always look in the direction of making it "easier" but there are advantages to actually LEARNING how it works. Wanting everything so full-retard easy isn't always a good way to go through life and definitely isn't great for every computing solution you will ever need. Having too-few choices available just makes a user easier to exploit.

Re:Oh noes! (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27965095)

In other news, cars need to be easier to drive to reach the 6-year old market, knives need to stop being sharp if they really want to catch-on, and watches need to stop having numbers on them if they want to appeal to illiterates.

How about we keep Linux awesome, and let it stand on its merits, rather than turning it into something it is not?

Re:Oh noes! (2, Insightful)

richardablitt (897338) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965609)

That's why we need (and have) several different distributions aimed at different demographics. The Windows 'one size fits all' system doesn't work.

win32 apps (1)

giampy (592646) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965157)

They are already doing that, with some success. Of course windows being bundled with new computers and incapability of running win32 apps (and i am not talking about office) are other pieces of the puzzle for which, i believe, we have to wait a little longer.

Re:Oh noes! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27965161)

Linux needs to go "full retard" in order to reach the masses

Uh-um. Seem to have worked for your comment.

Re:Oh noes! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27965183)

Essentially, a 6 year old and a 96 year old need to be able to use the system. If they can't, start over.

A large percentage of that demographic are not even able to use a spoon properly.
And you want them to handle computers?

Re:Oh noes! (2, Insightful)

Yvanhoe (564877) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965235)

Installing new software and new hardware is now easier on the latest Ubuntu than it is under Windows Vista. Linux is not mature : it is simply superior. As a pre-installed OS it would be a dangerous competitor for wiindows on the non-gaming market.

Re:Oh noes! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27965267)

My 6 year old has been using debian since he was three. Your point being?

Re:Oh noes! - Grandma hates to compile apps (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27965309)

No, Linux does not need to go "full retard" (Really, is that the best you could come up with?). Windows kernel is no more "user friendly" however it does have a host of helper apps that makes the OS useful. There are groups that are trying to integrate expected features and helper apps to make linux useful and these have had some success. However the issue isn't linux, it is the application developers.

To develop for OS X or Windows developers know that users expect certain UI standards, certain ease of use and most of all a very standardized and easy to use installation system. If I look for a Windows app and the file ends with ".exe", I'm 99% sure it will run without the need to compile it. If it ends in .msi it will also install OK. On a very rare occasion I may need to track down a ".dll" or driver. However my limited experience with Linux (limited because I can't find the software I need) has been that while the Ubuntu and other versions are beautiful, chock full of neato features and generally work, finding new software is at best an adventure and at worst ends in frustrating failure. Grandma doesn't want a .zip file filled with source and headers that she has to compile (and neither do I since I'm no longer young and single with all the time in the world on my hands).

Get developers away from the idea that Linux is a great technical sandbox and, get developers onto the idea that all software that requires a user interface also must have pre-compiled binaries and a UI that meets common UI standards and the rest will take care of itself.

Re:Oh noes! - Grandma hates to compile apps (3, Informative)

laughingcoyote (762272) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965597)

Ubuntu? Really? Try clicking the "system" option, then "Synaptic Package Manager". As you would've found had you paid any attention, you click the pretty box for the software you want, and your system installs the precompiled binaries along with any dependencies. No files (not even the equivalent of a .exe or .msi) required.

Your description of installing software on Linux is one way to do it, but it has not been the only way and certainly not the easiest way for a very long time.

Re:Oh noes! (1)

IrquiM (471313) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965617)

Agree!

I, as a 29 year old, have given up getting Vista to show 1080p and forwarding all sound through the HDMI plug.

I admit, it was a lot easier to get it working in Slackware!

I know... someone MS fans will probably give me -1 for trolling, but the fact is - Windows is not always as easy as people claim either.

is Gartner ignorant or trixy? (1)

drdozer (1552231) | more than 5 years ago | (#27964805)

No mature public Linux installations in Europe? Either Gartner has chosen to mislead, or they have used some definition of the words public and mature that I don't understand. And people still take notice of what these guys say?

Re:is Gartner ignorant or trixy? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27965141)

They might mean public as in governmental, in which case it shouldn't be too hard to find out if they were being accurate (at the time), probably a different story now

Re:is Gartner ignorant or trixy? (1)

MickyTheIdiot (1032226) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965401)

But if you included Schools and Universities as "public" or "governmental" wouldn't it even be questionable in 2005?

I don't know... this is not a rhetorical question. I don't know if in Europe schools would be considered almost Governmental entities as they are in the U.S. and it seems to me we were starting to see Linux labs in colleges way before 2005 in the U.S. and I thought that trend was mirrored around the world.

Case for fraud? (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27964889)

Isn't there an EU action for fraud, if Gartner was a contracted and paid consultant to the EU for this study? I'd love to see an American company get financially shitcanned by the EU. Not just fined but wiped out.

With probability 70% the report is BS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27964905)

I thought folks had realized by now that the accuracy and the lack of bias of Gartner was well... suspect?

More interesting is the assertion that releasing the document would have been damaging to Microsoft on account of the special contracts that Microsoft has with delivering Office for the EU parliament IT.

XP Virtualization = Upgrade to Linux (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27964909)

XP is virtually inside W7.

So MSFT has to support it. Now, where is the point to migrate to something called windows?

Re:XP Virtualization = Upgrade to Linux (1)

poetmatt (793785) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965305)

There's a difference. Linux actually supports openGL via wine, whereas W7 (and no other windows virtualization equivalent other than wine) does not.

Re:XP Virtualization = Upgrade to Linux (1)

BlackSash (1420967) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965587)

Correction:
Linux supports OpenGL full stop.

Wine just uses the libraries if available and maps the windows DX calls to their OpenGL equivalent.

Windows 7 does _not_ support OpenGL (if not not at all, then at the very least to any usable degree). But of course does support DirectX natively.

Re:XP Virtualization = Upgrade to Linux (1)

poetmatt (793785) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965857)

yeah, I should have typed that a bit more distinctly, but I agree.

What I meant was that you can essentially run XP software with better support via linux/wine than you can via windows 7's built in shoddy virtualization and/or piss poor "xp mode". I can only pity those trying to run an XP version of games/anything graphically dependant under the virtualization in W7 for example, whereas most windows software and even gaming is basically a non-issue for linux.

What are the mature Linux installations in Europe? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27964925)

Then, what are the mature Linux installations in Europe?

Re:What are the mature Linux installations in Euro (1)

asdir (1195869) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965739)

Well, at least the city of Munich: http://news.cnet.com/Munich-fires-up-Linux-at-last/2100-7344_3-6119153.html [cnet.com]

I am sure, though, that there are others.

Re:What are the mature Linux installations in Euro (1)

asdir (1195869) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965771)

I forgot: The Linux desktops were not in place in 2004 and the report seems to refer to that year.

Fraud and conflict of interest (4, Interesting)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 5 years ago | (#27964947)

Sue Silver for fraud; also he has a conflict of interest because he is a self-declared Windows tool and Linux is the main competition (sorry, Mac users.) Finally, never ask an all-business BA+MBA for technical information. You will only get statistics.

Re:Fraud and conflict of interest (3, Interesting)

WindBourne (631190) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965273)

Actually, I think that redhat AND Novell/SUSE would have the capability to sue them. Gartner can not really afford to have their reputation destroyed.

Re:Fraud and conflict of interest (4, Funny)

MadKeithV (102058) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965357)

15% of MBA's will get you the correct statistics though.

2005 != 2009 (5, Insightful)

firejump (1469371) | more than 5 years ago | (#27964951)

I'm in no way trying to defend Gartner and his study, but I believe there is a huge difference between Linux adoption in 2005 and now. Some slides from the pdf linked in the article suggest that major portions of the study were made even earlier, in 2003. Of course basing any technology-related decisions on such a outdated study is another matter...

Re:2005 != 2009 (1)

SpooForBrains (771537) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965919)

You are correct. A core difference being that in 2005, SuSE Linux was a better respected distribution (based out of Germany, ffs) than it is now.

"WinFS Arrives?" (5, Insightful)

Dunkirk (238653) | more than 5 years ago | (#27964957)

I love it! Here's our infamous "Gartner" group in prime form. FTFPDF, we see that they are predicting the arrival of WinFS anywhere from late 2008 to early 2010.

Now, anyone who's been around as long as Gartner knows that Microsoft has been promising this "feature" since Windows codename "Cairo," which was announced in 1991, and publically demo'ed in '93. There was a lot of hope that it would be delivered in NT 4.0. That's roughly 16 years folks. WAY more time than they had to develop Duke Nukem Forever, and it's just a _file system_.

If you want to talk about basing your corporate purchasing decisions on "features" like WinFS, then all this slagging off on Linux as not being "there yet" is directly hyporcritical, now, isn't it?

Re:"WinFS Arrives?" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27965075)

and it's just a _file system_.

It's funny how all you assholes that go on and on about WinFS don't even know that IT WASN'T A FUCKING FILE SYSTEM!

Please read the following carefully: WinFS was an abstraction layer THAT WAS GOING TO RUN ATOP NTFS

It's also worth pointing out that Microsoft accomplished everything they wanted to do with WinFS in the file and metadata search platform that's in Vista and 7.

Re:"WinFS Arrives?" (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27965227)

It's funny how all you assholes that go on and on about NTFS don't even know that IT WASN'T A FUCKING FILE SYSTEM!

Please read the following carefully: NTFS was an abstraction layer THAT WAS GOING TO RUN ATOP A HARD DRIVE.

--End sarcasm--
Functionally, what difference is there between a file system that runs atop a platter of bits and one that runs atop a stream of bits? To me, it seems that a File System can run atop another file system and still be a file system - look at GMailFS, for example. Think of it in terms of compilers - does a backend targeting assembly make something a compiler, while a backend to C/Java/Brainfsck do not?

Re:"WinFS Arrives?" (1)

nxtw (866177) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965515)

Functionally, what difference is there between a file system that runs atop a platter of bits and one that runs atop a stream of bits? To me, it seems that a File System can run atop another file system and still be a file system - look at GMailFS, for example. Think of it in terms of compilers - does a backend targeting assembly make something a compiler, while a backend to C/Java/Brainfsck do not?

WinFS was a database backed application - data would be stored on a traditional file system, unless it was sufficiently structured to make it worth storing directly in a relational database. So things like address book contacts would probably be stored completely in a WinFS database, but things like PDF documents or MP3 files would only have their metadata stored in WinFS.

WinFS attepmted to provide much, much more than the standard hierarchial file system operations (open/close, read/write, and directory manipulation). In this sense, it is not a filesystem. However, it would probably present as one of its interfaces a virtual file system that could be accessed like any other - so data in WinFS would be browseable through any application.

Re:"WinFS Arrives?" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27965643)

The difference is that WinFS wasn't going to store any files. It was just going to read the files that were stored to construct a metadata database which would be used to search for those files and other content.

WinFS will never be released. The problem is that other technologies caught up with it in the form of desktop search applications, making the project redundant. Windows Desktop Search includes the same abstracted metadata functionality where metadata can be indexed for any file, even to the contents within that file, or to entities that have nothing to do with files, in a pluggable manner with a public API. In Windows 2008 and Windows 7 it offers federation of that metadata to provide network-wide content searching. Neither Google Desktop nor Apple Spotlight accomplish any of this.

The one thing that WinFS might have done above and beyond Windows Desktop Search is provide the ability to save a file without a path and the file would be silently stored at some unknown location but accessible via the attached metadata. I do not believe that this feature tested very well amongst users for reasons that are probably fairly obvious.

Re:"WinFS Arrives?" (1)

loutr (626763) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965933)

WinFS [...] WASN'T A FUCKING FILE SYSTEM!

Yeah, people are asshole for not knowing outright that WinFS is not a FS :)

Re:"WinFS Arrives?" (2, Insightful)

nxtw (866177) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965573)

WAY more time than they had to develop Duke Nukem Forever, and it's just a _file system_.

It's not "just a _file system_". It's not even a file system in the traditional sense. I would describe it as a very fancy metadata and structured data indexing system [wikipedia.org] built on top of an existing file system and relational database.

I suspect that the system would be too complex if fully implemented considering the benefits it would bring - lots of potentially "cool" features, but not a whole lot of stuff that is truly useful (except desktop search, but that's already been implemented without WinFS.)

Gartner's correct (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27964961)

Linux fucking sucks.

Re:Gartner's correct (1)

noundi (1044080) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965297)

Indeed, you should never try to fuck linux, nor any other OS residing in your PC. This is what happens when schools stop their sex ed programs people.

Woops (1)

killmenow (184444) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965413)

Sorry to be a grammar/spelling Nazi, but you misspelled Vista.

Sure... (1)

inode_buddha (576844) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965027)

I'm pretty sure that Google and Yahoo have some data centers in the EU... and likely many other companies do too. Gartner is being deliberately obtuse, IMHO.

Re:Sure... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27965345)

Awesome! I didn't know Google and Yahoo put large numbers of desktop computers in their data centers. Wouldn't that get a little loud for the employees to be doing their office work in a server room though?

gartner myths of linux on the desktop (4, Informative)

rs232 (849320) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965113)

* Linux will be less expensive than Windows because StarOffice/OpenOffice.org can be used instead of Microsoft Office.

* Linux is free.

* There are no forced upgrades.

* Linux will require significantly less labor to manage.

* Linux will have a lower TCO than Windows because of available management tools.

* Applications will be inexpensive or free.

* Hardware can be kept longer if Linux is used, or older hardware can be used.

* Skills are transferable. - Gartner

Re:gartner myths of linux on the desktop (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27965147)

besides linux=free , those are all strictly true statements.

Three of these are NOT myths. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27965547)

Three of these are NOT myths.

1) Linux is free, that is true. Free in the sense of freedom, rather than money.

2) There are not forced upgrades - is anyone forcing you to upgrade Linux? You can make your own distro for your company only and YOU decide when to upgrade. You are free to do that. (Look (1))

3) Hardware can be kept longer - this is true, because you can customize your OS to your hardware. However, requirements of userspace software may force transition.

RedHat more expensive than proprietary (1)

rs232 (849320) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965193)

'As an example illustrating this fact, the Commission officially uses "Linux RedHat Enterprise Version" in its "x86" (also called Intel-compatible architecture) based servers. The fees for "RedHat Enterprise Version" are actually more expensive [stefanoforenza.com] than those of other proprietary alternatives'

Re:RedHat more expensive than proprietary (2, Informative)

cjalmeida (1148679) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965513)

Probably. But they DO cover more services. Bare MS licensing gives you not much more than the OS. Now add IIS support, Exchange, Office in every machine, etc. RHEL gives you an OS plus e-mail server, web server, directory server, virtualization, and all the free goodies packaged in RHEL. ALL WITHIN SCOPE OF THE SUPPORT CONTRACT.

As an European who's been using linux desktop... (2, Interesting)

jernejk (984031) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965385)

for over a year now, I must say I agree. Sadly, linux is not mature.

In the times pre windows nt/2000, yes, linux was more stable and had far better up time. But after windows 2000 came out, stability was greatly improved and is simply a non-issue these days.
When that happened, linux lost its strong point and the direction where it's going. A few weeks ago, Mark Shuttleworthd said "Linux must not be just better Windows" or something like that. That of course, is wrong. No matter what you want linux to be or not be, it's just a freaking OS. It deals with scheduling processor time and resources, and IO (and sadly, there's a IO bug in kernels after 2.6.18 that still hasn't been fixed IIRC). Anything more than that is not linux any more. It's either gnome or kde or whatever.

What I really care about as the user is that the os can run my software of choice. For example, MS office is my software of choice. I prefer MSO to any other solution I've seen. Specifically: i also like the look and feel of office 2007 (and since MacOS is forcing me into something else, Mac is off my OS list). Now, should linux run my app or should linux provide "an alternative" to any single pice of software there is? Dear god, speak about reinventing the wheel).

I currently use linux (or should I say Gnome, since linux really doesn't matter that much) because Vista has a really really REALLY stupid memory management (I don't understand what's the point of prefatching software you MIGHT use and then swapping programs you actually do use. I mean, how brain dead is that??). I like having multiple desktops (hello MS it can't be THAT hard), love powerful shell and SSH integration into nautilus.

But the more I use linux (Ubuntu in case you are interested), the more unhappy I am. It's the little things, like, keyboard not processing input on dual screen when there's no window open on that desktop. And configuring / changing (external) display configuration is simply broken. And high IO really brings system on the knees (even surfing is not possible while writing to a CD). Firefox is sloooooowwww. No exchange client. No out of the box AD integration. And so on and on and on.

It's really strange. Currently, there's no desktop OS i'd like to use. I don't get why people are sooooo amoused over mac os. I've tried it but didn't really liked it (yes, i'd prefer windows). On the other hand, MS doesn't know wher to go with Vista/7, but they don't implement a simple virtual desktops and tabs in windows explorer (yes, I'd buy 7 for these simple features).

Based on my experience I agree with gartner, windows is the better choice for EU's cuncil IT environment.

Re:As an European who's been using linux desktop.. (0, Troll)

jernejk (984031) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965639)

And yet linux fanboys mod me troll. Do as you are pleased, but that's precisely what's wrong with linux. Point to a problem and you are either a troll or you can "fix it yourself". Like, you know, GIMP USER INTERFACE STILL SUCKS. But developers surely know waaaayyy better what's good for the user.

Re:As an European who's been using linux desktop.. (1)

dkleinsc (563838) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965693)

As far as the MS Office issue, Linux can run your app via Wine or Crossover Office. There are also alternatives with varying degrees of quality.

It seems like a lot of your difficulties (No exchange client, no AD integration) have more to do with expecting Linux do things like Windows does when sometimes it doesn't. And sometimes there are ways of doing what you want to do that you just haven't learned about yet.

Re:As an European who's been using linux desktop.. (5, Insightful)

Zashi (992673) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965877)

You're unhappy with Linux because you're making the fatal mistake of trying to live a Microsoft life with a Linux based OS. It's like deciding you like nautical life so you buy an airplane. I had the same problem when I switched from windows 98 to Linux. I used XP along side Linux for a while, but eventually Linux (more acurately, POSIX) felt oh so more right and sensible than windows. Now, if it isn't POSIX compatible, it's a weird niche system to me. If you can let go of all your windows-isms and microsoft-isms you can be much happier with your computer. You can't constantly compare the two OSes, either. You'll never be satisfied like that, especially if you're really used to the first OS. It's like watching a really great movie many times and then years later watching a remake. Even if the remake is fantastic and new and has all the elements of the old that you like, it'll still be different. It will still feel like a shameless copy that doesn't quite work the way you want it to. You'll expect a line from your favorite character only to hear something different. Does the fact it was different from what you expected make it a bad line? Probably not, but it still leaves you a bit disappointed. I guess my point is to leave behind all your preconceptions about what an OS is and how it should behave, if you truly wish to switch to Linux--or any other OS for that matter--and be happy with it.

Okay, enough bad analogies.

you fail 1t! (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27965397)

'Yes' To any

Gartner (1)

owlstead (636356) | more than 5 years ago | (#27965629)

Feel free to chime in guys:

"It's from Gartner, so it is wrong"

Yes, this is a repetition of what I'll always say when talking about a Gartner report. But obviously it hasn't been chanted enough.

EU looking for evaluation from US company? (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#27965875)

What did they expect?

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