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Dell Indicates Windows 7 Pricing Will Be Higher

kdawson posted more than 3 years ago | from the confidence-or-arrogance-in-a-recession dept.

Windows 485

ausekilis sends us word that a Dell spokesman said, without giving numbers, that Windows 7 pricing will be higher than Vista's or XP's. "Windows 7 pricing is potentially an obstacle to Windows 7 adoption for some users, though in just about every other aspect the operating system is beating Vista, according to a Dell marketing executive. ... [Darrell] Ward continued, 'In tough economic times, I think it's naive to believe that you can increase your prices on average and then still see a stronger swell than if you held prices flat or even lowered them. I can tell you that the licensing tiers at retail are more expensive than they were for Vista. ... Schools and government agencies may not be able to afford (the additional cost). Some of the smaller businesses may not be able to enjoy the software as soon as they'd like,' Ward said.'"

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485 comments

Now If We Could Just Get ... (5, Insightful)

eldavojohn (898314) | more than 3 years ago | (#28004861)

Now if we could just get Dell to put a little drop down option in its OS & Productivity Suite selection to have an option for "Ubuntu & Open Office (subtract $200)" on all of their computers. And then to have it actually be $200 cheaper with the exact hardware.

Then we might be talking about "2009: The Year of the Recession and Linux on the Desktop."

Re:Now If We Could Just Get ... (5, Insightful)

frecky (1095067) | more than 3 years ago | (#28004967)

You will never get the full Windows price back if you want Linux because Windows cost less with all the adware, spyware, trial that comes pre-installed with the computer.

The best things in life are free, and on pirateby (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28005119)

That's why I don't care what it costs, to me, it's always free !! /. rulez!!

Re:Now If We Could Just Get ... (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28005361)

And it's easier for Dell to automate Windows installs + app installs on Windows. And it's cheaper for dell to support windows. So the cost for the linux option won't necessarily come down by the sticker price on the windows box.

Re:Now If We Could Just Get ... (4, Informative)

techno-vampire (666512) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005517)

Nonsense! All they have to do is set up one standard Ubuntu install and clone it, just like they do for Windows.

Re:Now If We Could Just Get ... (2, Informative)

kokojie (915449) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005565)

Or you could just buy from vendors such as cyberpowerpc.com, they offer an option to sell you a PC with a formatted completely empty hard drive.

Re:Now If We Could Just Get ... (2, Interesting)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005381)

Perhaps Linux PCs should also come with preinstalled advertising to help reduce the price? Let's see: FREE OS minus $200 == a really cheap computer. (Maybe even a free computer)

Re:Now If We Could Just Get ... (3, Interesting)

NeuroKoan (12458) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005569)

I believe 10 years ago or so there was a project that was called FreePC that would basically give you a fairly decent machine, in exchange for you letting them monitor your surfing habits and always display ads to you.

It didn't work.

Re:Now If We Could Just Get ... (4, Insightful)

NineNine (235196) | more than 3 years ago | (#28004975)

Then we might be talking about "2009: The Year of the Recession and Linux on the Desktop."

Based on the last decade of Linux adoption, I think it's pretty clear that most desktop users are willing to pay a hundred bucks or two for Windows. I know that certainly am.

Re:Now If We Could Just Get ... (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28005129)

Based on the last decade of Linux adoption, I think it's pretty clear that most desktop users are willing to run a search on The Pirate Bay for Windows.

There, fixed that for you.

Re:Now If We Could Just Get ... (4, Insightful)

davester666 (731373) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005271)

Really? Most desktop users?

I would guess that MOST desktop users haven't knowingly made the choice or are even aware that there is choice other than Windows. Some portion of computer buyers are aware of Apple computers and that they come with a different operating system.

Sure, some of the major manufacturers have occasionally offered a couple of models of computers with some variant of Linux available pre-installed, some even targeted for home and/or business end-users. But nobody (even today) has targeted a widespread ad compaign to even make people aware that there is such a thing as a 'Linux' choice (or Ubuntu or whatever).

Of all the computers destined for end-user use (either for business or home use), for non-techies (as in, the vast majority of people who use computers to do things, not do things to use computers), how many do you think can a) name an operating system at all (ie, Windows or MacOS), or b) name an OS other those two.

Simply put, I don't think you can say people have 'chosen' Windows over Linux, simply because they don't even know Linux exists.

And this is largely because of (IMHO) Microsoft's tactics in the 80's and 90's, that required computer manufacturers to either sell only computers with Microsoft operating systems or computers with non-Microsoft operating systems [or that you sell other operating systems, but the computer the customer got could only have the MS-operating system loaded (and paid for) and the customer had to erase it and install the other OS, etc].

Re:Now If We Could Just Get ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28005339)

Ah, yes. Another microsoft stockholder, or someone who makes his living by fixing microsoft bugs, or maybe just someone who was paid to astroturf the damn system.

Ain't it wonderful how all the bugs come out of the woodwork to praise microsoft when they get a chance?

No, probably not (5, Insightful)

Sycraft-fu (314770) | more than 3 years ago | (#28005005)

See that won't happen for two reasons. One is that MS gives you better licensing when you bundle Windows with all systems from a line. However the major reason is that Dell doesn't want to put up with the shit it would generate. It would be a tech support nightmare if they did that on main stream, consumer systems. You'd get a great many people doing it because it saves money. However they'd give no thought to if their apps would work or if they were willing to spend the time learning a new OS and so on. They'd get flooded with calls about it and have all sorts of angry people.

That's why when companies do offer things like Linux or no OS options, they do so on business type machines. When they are selling to an organization with their own support, they hope you can figure out what will and will not work for you. For home users? Ya not so much. They'd buy it, try to install a game, then complain because it didn't work.

Also, based on the prices Dell pays, it'd be $100 or less per computer.

Re:No, probably not (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28005223)

FUD whether it comes from M$ or from us is still FUD and a disgusting way to attack anyone or anything.

MS has not used those licensing conditions for the better part of a decade (due mostly to the anti trust case), the top 10 vendors have fixed licensing prices from M$ which are not affected in any way by how much linux they sell or whether they put windows on 5% or 99% of computers.

FUD and lies from us is in my opinion even worse than M$, we are supposed to be better than them.

Re:No, probably not (5, Informative)

Anachragnome (1008495) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005423)

There is one VERY important factor you are not taking into consideration--the fact that Ubuntu(Canonical Ltd.) makes THEIR money from service, not sales.

If you think about it, this could be a home-run for both Dell and Ubuntu, not to mention the rest of the open-source realm.

Dell and Canonical Ltd. could come to some sort of agreement where the customer service is done by Canonical Ltd. and is pre-paid with the purchase of the of the computer(the service fees charged by Canonical). If Canonical Ltd. determines that the problem is hardware related, the customer is referred to Dell for further service.

Dell could even reimburse Canonical a small sum to offset the inevitable calls that are hardware based, but solved in a few moments without further need of Dell being involved.

Canonical Ltd. comes out smelling like roses, probably with a huge increase in market-share, and Dell washes their hands of most of the CS headaches that they deal with, ones that are mostly the result of problems associated with WINDOWS.

Re:Now If We Could Just Get ... (1)

Abreu (173023) | more than 3 years ago | (#28005019)

Nah, remember that Microsoft gets paid for the number of computers sold, not for the number of Windows licenses sold.

Therefore, even if you want an Ubuntu install, Dell would not give you a discount

Re:Now If We Could Just Get ... (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28005177)

Nope. That was changed in the late 90s due to antitrust issues.

Re:Now If We Could Just Get ... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28005311)

Nah, remember that Microsoft gets paid for the number of computers sold, not for the number of Windows licenses sold.

Therefore, even if you want an Ubuntu install, Dell would not give you a discount

NO they don't, that is an outdated practise they did back in the 90's/early 2000. OEM's are all on volume based selling now, this hasn't been an excuse for linux's failure to sell for 5+ years now.

Mod parent up! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28005189)

Then we might be talking about "2009: The Year of the Recession and Linux on the Desktop."

Mod parent "Funny"!

Re:Now If We Could Just Get ... (2, Insightful)

Registered Coward v2 (447531) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005421)

Now if we could just get Dell to put a little drop down option in its OS & Productivity Suite selection to have an option for "Ubuntu & Open Office (subtract $200)" on all of their computers. And then to have it actually be $200 cheaper with the exact hardware.

Even if MS got $200/computer (which I doubt); a downgrade would be the cost of MS software - support costs for Linux. While the OS may be free; supporting it is not and will require Dell to factor those costs in as part of the option. Depending on the cost of the number of units they would expect to sell the cost for Linux per unit may actually be higher than for MS software.

Every time they change hardware they'd have to test to see if Linux supported the new configuration properly and fix any issues before they released the machine (in theory at least; after all we are talking about a hardware vendor here); and any release any mods back to the community essentially being a free development resource for other companies to boot. Why would Dell want to get into the driver business anyway?

It's a bit of the chicken and the egg - Dell needs vendors to support their hardware before Linux is mainstream enough for them, vendors need manufacturer demand to make developing drivers worthwhile.

Finally, if Dell or HP were really serious about using a free OS why not go with BSD and keep any improvements to your self, like Apple does? In theory, if it was a good enough OS they could sell it separately as well.

Re:Now If We Could Just Get ... (1)

Darkness404 (1287218) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005599)

Even if MS got $200/computer (which I doubt); a downgrade would be the cost of MS software - support costs for Linux. While the OS may be free; supporting it is not and will require Dell to factor those costs in as part of the option. Depending on the cost of the number of units they would expect to sell the cost for Linux per unit may actually be higher than for MS software.

How about Dell arranges with Canonical for, say 14 days free tech support, and in exchange Canonical gets an agreement to put Ubuntu as an option on all desktops/laptops for say, 3 years with an option of extended paid support with Canonical. Dell still would do the hardware part of support.

Every time they change hardware they'd have to test to see if Linux supported the new configuration properly and fix any issues before they released the machine (in theory at least; after all we are talking about a hardware vendor here); and any release any mods back to the community essentially being a free development resource for other companies to boot. Why would Dell want to get into the driver business anyway?

They do it with Windows anyways, and this is mostly a non-issue, a modern Linux distro is going to support more hardware out-of-the-box than Windows out-of-the-box, if only because of more frequent updates/releases. And theres no need to keep drivers closed, it just makes supporting them harder. Effectively if Dell can release enough specs, after a while Ubuntu will have adapted to the point where only a few lines needed to be changed to make a driver and the community could do that.

Finally, if Dell or HP were really serious about using a free OS why not go with BSD and keep any improvements to your self, like Apple does? In theory, if it was a good enough OS they could sell it separately as well.

Because neither Dell, HP, Levino, Asus, etc. Have enough of a strong following to pull it off. Apple gets people who really really like Macs, they won't use Windows, on the other hand, A Dell desktop and an HP desktop are only slightly different so its just a price war.

If it involves unlearning Windows, then people claim the learning-curve is too high.

Then there is the support matter, by keeping it all to yourself the community isn't going to release drivers, software, bugfixes, etc so Dell would have to do it all themselves. With Ubuntu Dell only has to give the specs and there are people who literally will code their stuff for free! Open specs = open drivers.

Microsoft decides to price-gouge (1, Flamebait)

Endo13 (1000782) | more than 3 years ago | (#28004865)

News at 11.

Re:Microsoft decides to price-gouge (5, Funny)

eldavojohn (898314) | more than 3 years ago | (#28004965)

News at 11.

Tom Tucker: We now go live to Asian correspondent Tricia Takanawa.
Tricia Takanawa: *nasally* Tom, I'm standing here in a hotel room with Steve Ballmer and I'm about to purchase Windows 7.
*Steve grunts and starts to rip off her pants*
Tricia Takanawa: Tom, you'll notice that Steve is not even bothering to kiss me first or even lube up. He is going straight for my black cherry. Back to you, Tom & Diane.
Diane Simmons: Gripping story, Tricia. We now go live to Ollie Williams with a fiscal forecast about Windows 7. Ollie?
Ollie Williams: SHITS EXPENSIVE!
Tom Tucker: Thank you Ollie.
Diane Simmons: ... and that concludes our newscast, from Quahog 5 goodnight everyone.

Re:Microsoft decides to price-gouge (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28005575)

Of course, Stewie uses Linux.

It is called signaling (5, Insightful)

davebarnes (158106) | more than 3 years ago | (#28004893)

Dell is obviously unhappy with the price and they are signalling (Cards. a play that reveals to one's partner a wish that he or she continue or discontinue the suit led.) to Microsoft their discontent.

How much will it cost when I d/l teh BitTorrent? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#28005029)

"My daddy ate my eyes."

Re:It is called signaling (1)

Malc (1751) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005491)

No doubt. He's blaming tough economic times, but that's today. By the time that schools and governmental agencies are trying to buy this in serious numbers, we should be out of recession (not in six months at product release, but 12-18 after SP1 has been released).

Cash Cow (1)

InFire (32320) | more than 3 years ago | (#28004917)

When you have a strong monopoly, you can squeeze the cash cow even in tough times.

Re:Cash Cow (3, Insightful)

DreamsAreOkToo (1414963) | more than 3 years ago | (#28005009)

Unfortunately, Microsoft doesn't hold a true monopoly. You see, Microsoft competes with itself.

Windows 7 has to compete with Vista and XP and even 2000. That's tough competition. When I need to run PC apps, XP does everything I need with the least overhead.

Re:Cash Cow (1)

node 3 (115640) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005197)

Unfortunately, Microsoft doesn't hold a true monopoly. You see, Microsoft competes with itself.

I'm pretty sure that's still a monopoly. All they're doing is selling different models.

Re:Cash Cow (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28005477)

Whooosh!

Re:Cash Cow (3, Insightful)

Chabo (880571) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005447)

When I need to run PC apps, XP does everything I need with the least overhead.

As long as you don't need more than 4GB of addressing space...

Re:Cash Cow (2, Informative)

minvaren (854254) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005637)

When I need to run PC apps, XP does everything I need with the least overhead.

As long as you don't need more than 4GB of addressing space...

XP : now in 64-bit [newegg.com] flavor (Newegg link as they appear to be willing to still sell it, unlike Microsoft).

Re:Cash Cow (1)

HTH NE1 (675604) | more than 3 years ago | (#28005041)

Oh, so that's your little plan: get us addicted [free RC], then jack up the price!

Well, you win.

Oh I have an idea (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#28004979)

How about this, sell a $10 Vista to Win7 upgrade disc. Charge a super low price for what is essentially service pack, and away we go. Everyone wins.

Ratios (1)

gmuslera (3436) | more than 3 years ago | (#28004981)

Probably the value/price ratio will be better for Windows 7 than for Vista (or at least, the perception of it). Of course, if you take that into account Mac OS X could have a better ratio, and Linux, well, give math headaches.

But if you dont count them as alternatives, then you have only one choice, and should pay whatever Microsoft think will be enough for them to survive the recession.

Re:Ratios (2, Funny)

kpainter (901021) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005257)

Probably the value/price ratio will be better for Windows 7 than for Vista (or at least, the perception of it). Of course, if you take that into account Mac OS X could have a better ratio, and Linux, well, give math headaches.

Error: Floating point division by zero

Re:Ratios (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005425)

Probably the value/price ratio will be better for Windows 7 than for Vista (or at least, the perception of it). Of course, if you take that into account Mac OS X could have a better ratio, and Linux, well, give math headaches.

Error: Floating point division by zero

Obtaining a Linux distribution costs money (cheapbytes) or money (3G data overages) or time (weeks-long shipping times from Ubuntu Shipit). That might make your calculation more numerically stable.

Re:Ratios (1)

trouser (149900) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005651)

Unmetered downloads from my ISP's ftp mirror. They mirror dozens of GNU/Linux distros (including Ubuntu), a swag of BSDs, Open Office and a bunch of other Free goodies.

All the Ubongo I want and it doesn't eat into my precious pr0n bandwidths.

something doesn't add up here... (5, Insightful)

ecalkin (468811) | more than 3 years ago | (#28004995)

microsoft is a company sitting on 25 billion dollars. they apparently sold $3-4 billion in bonds? they are *raising* prices during some of the worst economic times that a lot of people of have seen.

    it's like they have a pressing need for more than $30 billion?

    for a company that needs to sell operating systems to maintain their future, it doesn't make sense.

e

I don't know that they are really raising prices (4, Insightful)

Sycraft-fu (314770) | more than 3 years ago | (#28005077)

Note that Dell doesn't actually come out and say that. They aren't saying "MS is charging us $20 more per copy." They are hinting at it, but hedging their terms. What it smells like to me is Dell wants a better rate than they've been getting in the past, and this is one of the tactics they are using to get it.

Companies posture over pricing all the time, and sometimes publicly. If Dell can get people mad at MS for their high prices, even if the prices are no higher than they normally are, then maybe they get more leverage.

So while I have no inside knowledge of the situation, that's my bet. MS is keeping 7 prices the same, and Dell thinks they should be cut.

Re:I don't know that they are really raising price (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28005323)

MS is keeping 7 prices the same

So given that there's 10 editions of Windows, I'm betting that Home Premium, Business, and Ultimate will be jacked up to compensate?

Re:something doesn't add up here... (1)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005287)

When they reach 50 Billion, they'll have enough to complete Omega Omicron TERMINAL and they won't have to worry about selling OSes anymore.

Re:something doesn't add up here... (1)

pegr (46683) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005515)

Exactly! Let them screw themselves! After all, they'll have to do it 100 times to mean anything...

No One Here Has Enough Info To Comment (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#28005015)

It has always been the fundamental problem with these x86 OEM/Windows/Linux news stories over the past decade or so here on Slashdot that no one here has any real info on:

* How much OEMs like Dell are paying for the various Windows versions

* What the contracts specify about pricing and how non-Microsoft OSes affect the prices Dell is chared by Microsoft

* How much the various add on/bundling software vendors are paying to subsidize the cost of Windows on x86 boxes

* How much it really costs Dell to support, advertise, and ship Linux in addition to Windows

Sure, people have anecdotal stories about how much Dell is paying for the various versions of Windows and other analyst estimates. But after ten years of hoping and predicting that Linux would be the obvious choice for OEMs to include instead of Windows in the crazy competitive and razor thin margins of OEMs that what people want to believe about Linux being cheaper just isn't true.

 

Re:No One Here Has Enough Info To Comment (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28005455)

The return rate on Dell's computers that have Linux preinstalled (not business computers, but consumer) is more than double that of windows models.

It's almost 10x higher on the Minis.

Re:No One Here Has Enough Info To Comment (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28005473)

But, as you said, we don't have the information. We do know that the cost of shipping Linux is $0 and the cost of shipping Windows is $X. For some value of X > 0. We also suspect that shipping a version of Linux costs them Y for Y > 0 because they have to pay protection [wikipedia.org] to Microsoft. We don't know how much the crapware people [wikipedia.org] are paying Dell (et al) for their junk to be included.

But for an OS - without crapware, without coerced payments to microsoft for protection money, without advertising and junk - we know that linux is cheaper and (for the most part) better. We know that Dell (et al) are doing what Microsoft wants because Microsoft is the big bully on the playground. And we know that everyone goes along with it because at some point some Microsoft peon (perhaps the public schools, perhaps a cheezy university), perhaps their boss, said "Microsoft is the Beez Kneez" and they (sadly) bought the party line. Very little different than the peasants in Stalin-land.

Windows 7 price higher than Vista's (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#28005055)

Windows 7 pricing will be higher than Vista's

Oh I'm so glad I bought Vista and qualify for a free Windows 7 upgrade.

Right?

Dmare (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#28005067)

walk up to 3a play

it's not cash they need (4, Interesting)

joeflies (529536) | more than 3 years ago | (#28005075)

they need to demonstrate to investors that they are indeed a money making business that will continue to make a lot of money in the future. Regardless of their cash position, if the investors leave, who already got shaky feelings from vista, then the market cap of the whole company goes down and ballmer will go looking for a job.

Now whether higher prices will help them make their sales goals, that's yet to be seen. In the short term, perhaps yes, with all the built in sales to the OEMs. In the long term, I bet the retail sales trail the oem sales for a while, so this might have been a pretty good plan overall anyways.

So... (2, Interesting)

XPeter (1429763) | more than 3 years ago | (#28005093)

How much will it cost to get a copy of XP from Dell when 7 is released?

Re:So... (1)

kpainter (901021) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005285)

How much will it cost to get a copy of XP from Dell when 7 is released?

I don't know what it will cost but that will be called a "Downgrade downgrade".

Re:So... (1)

ChunderDownunder (709234) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005547)

Probably nothing, if you don't go with the 'Home' version. The catch? you have to run a copy of Windows 7 'outside' XP, i.e. Microsoft's compatibility mode.

Instead of virtualizing an XP guest inside a Windows 7 host, how about XP on bare metal, running 7 inside a VM for forward compatibility? MS could sell it as an option pack for XP - continue using XP now, clean install 7 on your PC when you want to fully migrate.

Re:So... (1)

XPeter (1429763) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005615)

I liked your idea of the forward compatibility option, but I don't see M$ doing anything like that.

It would be spectacular, though. XP would hit ten years old and still be going strong.

Makes sense - W7 seems to be working (1)

ferar (64373) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005095)

If people is paying 350~700 for something that does not work, it makes sence to ask a surplus for something that works.

"...enjoy..."? (1, Troll)

John Hasler (414242) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005115)

I thought this was about Windows.

Re:"...enjoy..."? (1)

Drinking Bleach (975757) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005385)

This is the company that has tried to convince the world that an operating system is not simply a platform to run applications, but it is something to experience with wonderful vistas... they have largely succeeded.

Perceived Value (4, Insightful)

Phroggy (441) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005155)

Sometimes if you make it more expensive, people will buy it for that reason alone. They see the higher price, and think that there must be a good reason for it to be a little bit more expensive than the alternatives.

Re:Perceived Value (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28005273)

Funny you should mention perceived value.

I just paid $0.00 for my recent upgrade to Ubuntu 9.04 (employer provided bandwidth and CD, so yeah exactly $0.00).

This article about the cost of Windows 7 being higher just raised the my perceived value in choosing Ubuntu. I got "more" for free.

Yay me! ^_^

higher pricing? (2, Insightful)

socsoc (1116769) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005157)

I already pay a higher price for XP compared to Vista. Now I'm gonna have to pay a higher price for 7 compared to Vista?

Re:higher pricing? (3, Informative)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005305)

It doesn't make much sense does it? The old XP and the new 7 costs more than Vista. It's almost as if Vista is being subsidized.

Windows 7 still better than OS X 10.2 (0, Troll)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005171)

Win 7 might be more expensive, but after what I experienced today, I think I'll happily upgrade from XP to 7 when the time comes. Even at a higher price, it's STILL have to better than the Mac I've been using. A friend of mine just gave me his old Macintosh, and I thought that was cool, because I used to have a Quadra in the early 90s and loved it.

But alas, I was fooled. This OS 10.2 computer refuses to run even the most-basic websites like youtube.com due to Flash not being installed. I tried upgrading but ran into problems with Internet Explorer (crashed), Safari 1.0 (refuses to download any software, even later versions of itself), and Firefox 3 (crashed during installation - I'm stuck using FF2). When I finally got-around to installing the Adobe Flash Player, I was told I need to upgrade to 10.4, and it refused to run.

Wonderful. Like I have an extra $150 laying-around to buy OSX 10.4. No wonder my friend "gave" this Mac to me - he didn't want the hassle. C'mon Windows 7! No matter how bad you might be, you certainly can't be as bad as this Mac I'm typing on.

Re:Windows 7 still better than OS X 10.2 (2, Insightful)

BearRanger (945122) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005239)

Damn that's some mighty smelly bait. I hope no one is foolish enough to actually take it and respond seriously to it... it will just make the entire thread sick.

Re:Windows 7 still better than OS X 10.2 (1)

socsoc (1116769) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005329)

errr... hook, line and sinker. doh.

Re:Windows 7 still better than OS X 10.2 (1)

BearRanger (945122) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005433)

Er... no. Those words... they do not mean what you think they mean.

Responding seriously to it would be refuting his points. Pointing out that it's stinky bait is just that... a warning to other readers to beware.

Re:Windows 7 still better than OS X 10.2 (1)

socsoc (1116769) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005541)

I was the one that fell for it. I just wasn't clear enough in my post. Doh again...

Re:Windows 7 still better than OS X 10.2 (2, Informative)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005443)

If you don't like what you hear, discredit the author's opinion by using the words "bait" or "troll". Don't even consider the fact that the author might ACTUALLY hate the Macintosh he's typing upon. No that couldn't possibly be.

Anyway I stand by what I said about OS 10.2 refusing to display youtube.com, or install Flash Player, or run Firefox 3. That's pathetic. Even my ancient Windows 98 laptop will let me watch youtube or other website videos. Why can't OS 10.2? Makes no sense.

Re:Windows 7 still better than OS X 10.2 (1)

socsoc (1116769) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005591)

10.2 can watch them and I have machines that do. The problem is that you are trying to install the latest versions of everything, something that also won't work on 98.

Re:Windows 7 still better than OS X 10.2 (1)

socsoc (1116769) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005313)

A box running 10.2 is fairly useless for what you are trying. IE stopped being supported years ago. Safari and FF won't run the latest versions, you have to try and find earlier ones (so, yes your best bet is what you have... FF2).

10.2 came out in 2002, so I would compare it more to running into problems with XP SP1, you're gonna find a lot of software that doesn't run on that OS version too.

Oh and good luck running XP SP3, anti-virus and current versions of software satisfactorily on a Windows box that is 7 years old (I have experience doing this at work, makes for unhappy users).

Re:Windows 7 still better than OS X 10.2 (5, Insightful)

jedidiah (1196) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005347)

Being forced to run 10.2 is much like being stuck with any machine old enough to have come with 10.2 pre-installed.

You got it free because it is OLD, not because it's inherently bad.

This guy probably has a current Mac these days.

Re:Windows 7 still better than OS X 10.2 (1)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005639)

Actually he showed me his new machine. It's an XP-64 operating system which he uses for running a personal website, playing Red Alert, or just casual surfing.

I guess he too got tired of expensive bi-annual Mac OS X upgrades.

Re:Windows 7 still better than OS X 10.2 (1)

BearRanger (945122) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005445)

You know, if you're going to criticize me for falling "hook, line and sinker" you might want to refrain from actually doing so yourself.

Re:Windows 7 still better than OS X 10.2 (1)

socsoc (1116769) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005519)

Oh no man, that comment to yours was referring to this post by me. Sorry for not being clear.

XP longevity (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005535)

Oh and good luck running XP SP3, anti-virus and current versions of software satisfactorily on a Windows box that is 7 years old

I'm running Windows XP SP3 on a Dell PC with an 866 MHz Pentium III CPU, made in the fourth quarter of 2000. The only significant hardware upgrade was from 128 to 384 MB of RAM. I have a ClamWin weekly scan as my non-invasive antivirus. And I run current Firefox, current GIMP, current Nestopia, and current CC65.

Re:XP longevity (1)

socsoc (1116769) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005613)

I meant in small business environment, which does require something more invasive than ClamWin, thus my user comment that dropped off your quote.

Re:Windows 7 still better than OS X 10.2 (1)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005543)

>>>10.2 came out in 2002, so I would compare it more to running into problems with XP SP1,

I see your point but consider it invalid because XP SP1 does run most software. Even my ancient Win98 laptop will display youtube.com and other website video services. Why is it that an ancient 1998 OS can run flash videos, but not a 2002 OS? Hmmm. It makes no sense to me.

Maybe this is the "Mac tax" everyone talks about? I never understood what that meant, but if Mac users have to keep spending ~$150 every other year to upgrade from 10.2 to 10.3 to 10.4 (plus the necessary RAM upgrades), then that could get damn expensive.

I've had the same XP installation since 2002. I've never had to spend a dime to upgrade from XP to SP1 to SP2 to SP3. But if I was a Mac user, then I guess I'd have already spent a few hundred going from 10.0 to 10.1 to 10.2 to 10.3.....

Re:Windows 7 still better than OS X 10.2 (4, Interesting)

Ant P. (974313) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005389)

If you don't have $150 for an OS X licence, how about $5 to burn a Debian CD-R? Better than leaving it as an electronic paperweight.

Re:Windows 7 still better than OS X 10.2 (1)

geekboy642 (799087) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005601)

OS X 10.2
Ah-hah, right. You're using an OS that was EOL'ed in 2003, and expecting it to run modern software? That's like complaining Windows 95 won't run IE 8. If you want to run modern software, you need a modern OS. I don't try to play Warcraft on OS/2 Warp, do you get my meaning?

Also, as a non-trolling response, have you tried oldversion.com? You could almost certainly find a version of flash that's supported on 10.2, or a less-antique version of Safari. That, or watch eBay. I'd bet Tiger shows up there infrequently.

Win7 = OS costs more than reasonable hardware (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28005233)

Fsck that. Seriously. Fsck. That.

2010 = Year of Ubuntu on Joe Sixpack's computer, when he discovers that he can buy a netbook for less than the cost of a single Windows 7 license.

Re:Win7 = OS costs more than reasonable hardware (4, Funny)

icannotthinkofaname (1480543) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005671)

Fsck that. Seriously. Fsck. That.

Why this mad obsession with checking a filesystem? What is so exciting about sitting there and having your computer make sure that you disks are consistent and not broken and stuff?

And this will help adoption rates and piracy how? (2, Interesting)

meist3r (1061628) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005235)

I don't get it. My theory of Vista as an expectation lowering decoy gets more and more plausible.

Re:And this will help adoption rates and piracy ho (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28005451)

I don't get it. My theory of Vista as an expectation lowering decoy gets more and more plausible.

And history repeats itself. Anyone remember WindowsME?

Microsoft charges more and more, yet... (0, Flamebait)

kevind23 (1296253) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005289)

Linux remains free.

Re:Microsoft charges more and more, yet... (-1, Troll)

wampus (1932) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005597)

I really have to wonder what you toolboxes get from parroting this shit over and over again. Great, the software you run on your computer was free. Here's a goddamned cookie.

Re:Microsoft charges more and more, yet... (4, Funny)

icannotthinkofaname (1480543) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005689)

*sees (Score:3, Informative)*

Equally informative: sky remains blue, water remains wet, Pope remains Catholic.

*expects a +5 with some adjective*

enjoy software??? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28005333)

Quote "ome of the smaller businesses may not be able to enjoy the software as soon as they'd like,"

That has got to be one of the dumbest statements I have heard in a long time. Who enjoys OS software, much less windows software. Replace the word enjoy with endure and that statement makes sense. The big question is how much "endurance" can small buisnesses stand?

Guess MS wants Mac to win (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28005453)

Looks like MS wants Mac to win the OS war. This is practically handing the trophy over to Apple. Businesses are leery about open source, but Apple's a recognizable name to them.

Some of them very well might make the switch given MS' choice of direction (Office 2007, Vista, Server 2008, Win7).

I wonder (3, Interesting)

SirLurksAlot (1169039) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005465)

I wonder what it's like inside Microsoft's little bubble world? It's as if they're oblivious to everyone and everything outside of it. A recession is on but hey!, lets go ahead and raise the price! I mean, after all everyone hates Vista so they should be kicking Microsoft's door in to have to opportunity to pay more for the next version, right?

Meanwhile I just upgraded my laptop to Jaunty and had it completely setup and configured to my needs in under a half hour. For free. It really makes me rethink the whole idea of upgrading my Vista machine.

Solution: Pre-install linux and windows? (5, Interesting)

atmurray (983797) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005573)

I wonder if it would be possible for someone like Dell to allow people to choose to have linux and windows pre-installed except leave windows on a 30 day trial. Then people are free to try out linux and see if it suits their needs. If they then decide they need windows, they can purchase a key for activation.

Small business (5, Insightful)

Groggnrath (1089073) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005579)

Some of the smaller businesses may not be able to enjoy the software as soon as they'd like

Translation: They'll buy it anyway, because MS could shit in a box and small Businesses with little to no technical support or knowledge would still feel forced to buy it because they don't know they don't have to.

Of course (1)

Corson (746347) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005669)

Obviously, M$ must be creative to recoup their Vista development costs. But if it's true then I guess Dell are afraid they will have to cut down on their own costs/profits, just to keep the total price down.

Enjoy? (1)

dmomo (256005) | more than 4 years ago | (#28005691)

"Some of the smaller businesses may not be able to enjoy the software as soon as they'd like,' Ward said.'"

If by enjoy you mean rip of a band-aid really fast.

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