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Timeglider Software Outlines Rosenberg Spy Case

samzenpus posted more than 4 years ago | from the too-late-for-an-appeal dept.

Government 99

An anonymous reader writes "Related to the previous story on Slashdot on the release of the Vassiliev Notebooks: the Cold War project has created a timeline on the Rosenberg spy ring (using Timeglider — a web-based, Flash-powered software for creating timelines), integrating the documentation from the Venona Intercepts, the FBI files related to industrial and atomic espionage, the Rosenberg trial papers and the Vassiliev notebooks in a easy-to-digest, complete picture of the evidence on the Rosenberg's involvement in atomic espionage. It can be accessed via the project's webpage. The use of Timeglider makes understanding the complex nature of the case and the newly available documentation more manageable."

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99 comments

What is treason? (0, Flamebait)

BadAnalogyGuy (945258) | more than 4 years ago | (#28036797)

Treason is to act against your own countrymen in the service of another country. But is that really what it boils down to when you prevent more deaths through dissemination of state secrets? Is it really an offense worthy of death to act according to your own morality?

Many people have protested the Iraq War. And with good reason. It is almost wholly a bad war to have started without a plausible benefit for the American people. In fact, the only thing it has done is to deplete our treasure and kill many of our fine soldiers (not to mention many many of innocent Iraqis). Undertaking the war in Iraq is an act against our beloved American countrymen.

So is George Bush a traitor? Should he be held to such standards and punishment as those who may have, in good conscience, shared state secrets that no doubt hastened the end of the War? It's unfortunate that the little guy doing the right thing is punished for minor transgressions when the leaders of the very same country are allowed to escape punishment scott-free due to their position of power at the time.

Re:What is treason? (5, Insightful)

Hal_Porter (817932) | more than 4 years ago | (#28036859)

Treason is to act against your own countrymen in the service of another country. But is that really what it boils down to when you prevent more deaths through dissemination of state secrets? Is it really an offense worthy of death to act according to your own morality?

Meh. What the Rosenbergs did - giving atomic secrets to a hostile tyranny is treason. I'm no fan of the death penalty, but it's definitely a serious crime. And I'm sure if the sort of people the Rosenbergs had favoured had ended up running the country there would have been a lot more people executed under treason charges who were just 'acting under their own morality', treason being a popular though spurious charge in Stalinist show trials.

Re:What is treason? (1)

vertinox (846076) | more than 4 years ago | (#28039285)

Meh. What the Rosenbergs did - giving atomic secrets to a hostile tyranny is treason. I'm no fan of the death penalty, but it's definitely a serious crime.

Ironically, the Soviets having nukes when they did might have prevented a US invasion of mainland China or the use of nukes on North Korea and China in the 1950's during the escalation of the Korean War.

My guess such an invasion and protracted war would have been economically disastrous for the US leading the Soviets to simply to win by default once they made nukes later on.

It is a big "what if" and the Rosenberg's never really had that idea in mind, but it is something to ponder if history had been different.

Re:What is treason? (1)

Wyatt Earp (1029) | more than 4 years ago | (#28042367)

No, the Soviets having nukes was not why the US didn't invade China or nuke the DPRK and/or China in 1950.

The US didn't do those things because the civilian leadership of the US didn't want to get into a massive war with China and some of the military leadership did, so the failure to invade/nuke is due to reigning in MacArthur and not because the Soviets had a handful of fission bombs

Re:What is treason? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28045239)

>Soviets having nukes when they did might have prevented a US invasion of mainland China or the use of nukes on North Korea and China in the 1950's

Which is exactly why Truman and Acheson did NOT want MacArthur to push beyond the Chinese border. They did NOT want to start a nuclear exchange in Asia or Europe.

Re:What is treason? (1)

icebike (68054) | more than 4 years ago | (#28046227)

They weren't worried about a Nuclear Exchange, they were worried about a conventional one, of massive Chinese infantry.

Of course no one here on Slash dot will ever concede the US never had any territorial ambitions in China, but that, in fact, is the case. After just completing world war 2 and a huge cost no one wanted the Korean war, not even the Military.

Re:What is treason? (3, Informative)

Mr. Slippery (47854) | more than 4 years ago | (#28040231)

What the Rosenbergs did - giving atomic secrets to a hostile tyranny is treason.

In the U.S., treason is narrowly defined as "levying war against [the U.S.], or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort." The Rosenbergs did not make war against the U.S., and no state of war existed between the U.S. and the U.S.S.R., so we were not enemies. We were rivals in a geopolitical game including nuclear brinksmanship and other brutal and stupid behavior on both sides, yes, but not enemies. (Indeed, at the time the Rosenbergs started their activities, we were allies with the U.S.S.R. against the Nazis.)

As for the Vassiliev notebooks -- they're crap [thenation.com]:

Vassiliev, who acted as his own lawyer, was not an impressive witness. On the arcane but crucial question of whether, in his unfettered trawl through KGB archives, he'd ever seen a single document linking Alger Hiss with "Ales"--the code name of a Soviet agent in the 1940s who, Weinstein and Vassiliev insisted, had to be Hiss--he admitted he hadn't. He also failed to provide a satisfactory account of just how he'd managed, despite being required to leave his files and notebook in a safe at the KGB press office at the end of each day, to smuggle out the notebooks with his extensive transcriptions of documents, which, he explained, he couldn't even ask to have photocopied, because the contents were considered Russian state secrets.

So Vassiliev did what crank authors due when presented with criticism: brought suit under the U.K.'s libel laws [wikipedia.org].

Re:What is treason? (1)

afabbro (33948) | more than 4 years ago | (#28048763)

In the U.S., treason is narrowly defined as "levying war against [the U.S.], or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort." The Rosenbergs did not make war against the U.S., and no state of war existed between the U.S. and the U.S.S.R., so we were not enemies.

While we're quoting the constitution, please quote the part that defines "enemy".

Oh.

Gosh, I guess that means it's up to the courts to interpret...

By the way, you do realize that your whole point is invalid because the Rosenbergs were not charged with treason, right? They were sentenced for espionage, not treason. And by the way, they took oaths not to reveal secrets and were aware that any illegal revelations carried the potential of the death penalty.

Re:What is treason? (1)

Mr. Slippery (47854) | more than 4 years ago | (#28090709)

While we're quoting the constitution, please quote the part that defines "enemy". Oh. Gosh, I guess that means it's up to the courts to interpret...

No more so than it's up to the courts to interpret any other word. In the context "levying war against..or in adhering to their enemies", it means a group at war with the U.S. Full stop.

By the way, you do realize that your whole point is invalid because the Rosenbergs were not charged with treason

Would you care to look upthread and see how the topic of treason came into the discussion? Thanks.

they took oaths not to reveal secrets

Julius might have signed some such nonsense when in the Army, but when did Ethel Rosenberg ever take such an oath? Please provide a citation or retract this claim.

There is no evidence that Ethel Rosenberg engaged in espionage. Greenglass long ago recanted his testimony.

Re:What is treason? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28037003)

So is George Bush a traitor?

Perhaps not, but by many metrics, he is a war criminal. More Iraqis have died since the beginning of the Iraqi war than under Saddam's reign. For the things that GW has done to the American constitution ... (And, I am not a USA citizen! If I was, I would be doubly pissed!)

Re:What is treason? (1)

dwm (151474) | more than 4 years ago | (#28037157)

More Iraqis have died since the beginning of the Iraqi war than under Saddam's reign.

Er, documentation? And since you're no doubt including all fatalities, including those inflicted by enemy forces, be sure to include the deaths from Saddam's futile war against Iran.

Massacre or fight for freedom (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28037453)

Let me help you. What he meant was, that more people had died in the war which ensued following the US invasion of Iraq than had died in peacetime under Saddam's regime. He's right.

If you believe Amnesty International's figures, there were fewer than 200 hangings in Iraq per year before the invasion (some might say that's enough), and even as his regime responded to uprisings, they killed fewer Iraqis than were killed as a direct result of the US invasion.

The difference is that when Saddam's regime killed people to put down the uprising, the US called it a massacre. When the US killed thousands of Iraqis during and since the invasion to suppress opposition, it is described as a necessary but tragic consequence of ridding Iraq of a dictator.

I am not an admirer of Saddam or his yobbish sons, but the story is not as clear cut as you would like to believe.

Re:Massacre or fight for freedom (1)

dbrutus (71639) | more than 4 years ago | (#28038223)

Did those 200 deaths include the girls that Uday Hussein make dissapear after he'd finished with them? I think not. Did those 'peacetime' deaths include the deaths from diverting medicines for the people under Saddam to regime stabilization toys like Playstations for the kids of the ruling class? Of course not. AI is lying with statistics. A lot of people are. Apples to apples please.

We have our own "Uday Husseins" (1)

Philip K Dickhead (906971) | more than 4 years ago | (#28038737)

And ours are documented - not some MOSSAD provided "baby incubator"-type monster-propaganda, disseminated to dehumanize an enemy of Israel.

BAGHDAD, Aug. 7 -- A U.S. soldier charged with the rape and murder of a teenage Iraqi girl and the deaths of three of her relatives described to army investigators how he and his comrades hatched the plot during a morning of drinking whiskey, playing cards and hitting golf balls, an Army investigator testified Monday.

Spec. James P. Barker, 23, made the graphic admission in an interview and sworn statement, Special Agent Benjamin Bierce said at a hearing in Baghdad to determine whether the soldiers should face a military trial.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/07/AR2006080700780.html [washingtonpost.com]

Re:We have our own "Uday Husseins" (1)

Philip K Dickhead (906971) | more than 4 years ago | (#28039493)

Skaret told jurors that a group of soldiers, including Green, were playing cards and drinking whiskey at a checkpoint near Mahmudiyah, about 15 miles south of Baghdad.

Talk turned to having sex with Iraqi women, when one soldier mentioned the al-Janabi family, who lived nearby, Skaret said. Soldiers then went to the home where, according to prosecutors, Green pulled the father, mother, and daughters ages 6 and 14 into another room, then pushed the 14-year-old out.

Skaret said Green used a shotgun to kill the three in the room with him and told the soldiers that the family was dead.

He then raped the girl and shot her, according to Skaret.

As the girl lay helpless, "Steven Green went over to the wall and picked up a gun and he shot her in the face again and again," Skaret said.

Later, Green would talk about the killings to superior officers, other soldiers and even civilian friends, Skaret said.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/05/07/national/main5000038.shtml [cbsnews.com]

Re:We have our own "Uday Husseins" (1)

belmolis (702863) | more than 4 years ago | (#28045063)

Israel doesn't need to make things up to dehumanize its enemies: they openly advertise their depravity. Islamic anti-semites loudly proclaim their bigotry, explicitly state their genocidal aims, and take "credit" for war crimes up to and including the deliberate murder of little girls.

The "incubator" stuff did not come from the Mossad. It came from Kuwait, not a big buddy of Israel.

Re:We have our own "Uday Husseins" (1)

Philip K Dickhead (906971) | more than 4 years ago | (#28047153)

Hey, Hasbara astro-turfer, who boast of killing babies? The IDF! They even print T-Shirts, that laugh about killing pregnant women.
Israeli Army T-Shirts Mock Gaza Killings of Women and Children [sky.com]

Of course, they don't usually use bullets. Internationally banned chemical warfare agents, like White Phosphorus [google.com] will kill a neighborhood full of children, [ning.com] so much easier.

Per your deception on the origin of the Incubator smear of Iraq? Kuwait is a client of the USA. The USA is a client of Israel. [jpost.com]

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25,1982:

"The blood of the Jewish people is loved by the Lord; it is therefore redder and their life is preferable."
-- Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg, head of the Kever Yossev Yeshiva (school of Talmud) in Nablus

"The killing by a Jew of a non-Jew, i.e. a Palestinian, is considered essentially a good deed, and Jews should therefore have no compunction about it."
-- Yitzhak Ginsburg, "Five General Religious Duties Which Lie Behind the Act of the Saintly, Late Rabbi Baruch Goldstein, May his Blood be Avenged"

Re:We have our own "Uday Husseins" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28047297)

"No person, no idea, and no religion deserves to be illegal to insult, not even the Church of Emacs."

"Odious ideas are not entitled to hide from criticism behind the human shield of their believers' feelings."
-- Richard Stallman

Yeah. Maybe you should practice what you preach, Perfesser!

Re:We have our own "Uday Husseins" (1)

Philip K Dickhead (906971) | more than 4 years ago | (#28047355)

Why did you sidestep my observation of pervasive human evil, with supported claims of an American devilry being equal to that of any unsubstantiated propaganda about Iraq?

You went straight for a defense of Israel! And used broad - again unsubstantiated by evidence - claims to justify classifying Muslims as a sub-human category! Presumably as justification for their slaughter?

You are piece of work!

Re:We have our own "Uday Husseins" (1)

Philip K Dickhead (906971) | more than 4 years ago | (#28057737)

Have You Killed a PalestinianToday?

May 22, 2009 5 Comments [wordpress.com]

1. In the good old days when the Summer and Winter Olympics were hosted in some really odd country, Canada for some reason comes to mind, the hosts used to be able to introduce their own sport to the smorgasbord of increasingly ridiculous sporting events that are the fruit of the Olympic Movement as the rich like to call it. So, maybe the Canadians would have introduced curling but they were beaten to this by the French in 1924. Anyway, a host country could push to have one of its sports as a demonstration sport to further the sports popularity.

Embracing the universalist elitism of the Olympic Movement and keeping in step with the mores of globalism, the tuyuur here at Mantiq al-Tayr very much hope that the Olympics will soon be hosted by Israel or by its satellite country, The United States of America. If the games are hosted in the US, then we recommend that waterboarding be introduced as a demonstration sport. In fact, recent events have provided excellent victims to be publically waterboarded by Israeli-trained CIA contractors and the winner would be the one who gets the most outrageous confession from these four morons who were set up [washingtonpost.com]by the FBI. (While Rosen and Weissman get off. Oh, and where the hell is Edward Mosberg [dailyrecord.com]? An email from Mantiq al-Tayr to the author of the article sent two days ago asking if Mosberg has come back to the US or not remains unanswered.)

However, in the interests of providing a really entertaining demonstration sport that will stimulate the loins of everyone from AIPAC to Judith Miller, we here at Mantiq al-Tayr held a minyan and bobbed our heads up and down begging Shadai to have the Olympics held in Israels eternal capital (no, not New York you smart asses), Jerusalem.

The Israeli national pass time is finding creative ways to murder Palestinian men, women and children. They are very good at it and probably would take the Gold, Silver and Bronze medals. Still, its great fun and Im sure that the US and the UK would at least give the Izzies a run for their money that they took from us.

So, for example, lets take the case of Israeli Border patrolmen Shachar Butbika and Dennis al-Hazub. They won a gold medal in 2002 for abducting a 17 year old Palestinian boy, beating the shit out of him, and then kicking him off the top of their patrol car as it roared down the road at 80 kph. His head smashed into the pavement and the impact killed him. What made this one even more fun was that the boy violated Israeli law by resisting their efforts to toss him off the patrol car kind of like a battle you have when you catch a big fish and real it in. Hahaha-Aretz reports:

He was beaten by Butbika and then forced to jump from the moving vehicle. He resisted, holding onto the jeeps roof, but was eventually forced out. One of the officers shouted hes dead. They drove away, without offering medical assistance, and tried to eliminate the evidence.

The 17 year old boys name is: 'Imran Abu Hamdiya

Here is a photo of him.

[btselem.org]

Imran Abu Hamdiya

Butbika and al-Hazub also won the silver medal that day as well. For earlier in the day they picked up another Palestinian youth, 20 year old Alaa Sankrut. Sankrut

was hauled onto the jeep, driven to a discreet location and kicked and beaten with a pickaxe handle, sustaining skull fractures

Unfortunately, Butbika and al-Hazub fucked up and the guy lived, much to the dismay [thetruthseeker.co.uk]of Rabbis throughout the land.

You anti-Semites might be pleased to know that Butbika, al-Hazub and two more of their cohorts were sentenced to several years in jail recently having somehow been convicted of manslaughter, yes, manslaughter, not premeditated murder, manslaughter. Theyll spend about as much time in jail as Michael Vick.

Hunting Palestinians is a game that goes on every day and each day more and more interesting ways of scoring are being invented. This past week two IDF dudes used an ice cream truck [haaretz.com] to drive around the West Bank. No doubt the truck could be counted on to bring children within point blank range and if you get a clean shot, you get a t-shirt [richardsilverstein.com]. Unfortunately for these two clowns, they didnt coordinate their activity with their partners in crime, the Palestinian police, so when the Good Humor Izzies opened fire, the Palestinians fired back clearly in violation of the Torah.

Yes indeed, Palestinian Plugging can sometimes be a dangerous sport, sort of like automobile racing and sometimes the driver gets killed. Then everyone can mourn and cry and glory in self-sacrifice and in general be a complete total sanctimonious asshole.

For example, in this case [israelnationalnews.com], the hunter ended up getting killed by his prey. We learn all about what a wonderful hunter he was, coming to Israel from that great bastion of virulent anti-Semitism known as Canada [wordpress.com] at the tender age of eight. But 10 years later he was a professional Palestinian Plugger. He even once tried (in vain) to save the life of a terrorist (terrorist is the Hebrew term for Palestinian) who had been shot by IDF hunters. He was a big hearted Palestinian plugger.

Cry me a river.

2. Now that the US economy has gone down the sewer and the banks, all owned by Islamofacists, have gotten about 12 trillion dollars, some of you out there in Mantiq land may be looking for jobs. Well, how about going to Israel to teach English? Judy Steiner wants you [haaretz.com].

There is always a shortage of English teachers and you have to ask, where are you going to find new ones? Dr. Judy Steiner, Chief Inspector for English Language Education in Israel told Haaretz.

Given the current financial problems in the United States, the Ministry of Education and the Jewish Agency hope to find more Anglos willing to consider an exciting future in teaching English to Israeli youth.

Just think of what a great challenge this would be. Hebrew only has two tenses, basically past and present. But English has trillions, so teaching the complex and subtle English tenses to semites can be difficult. Youll have to teach them all sorts of conditional clauses and how to use them properly in English. Examples:

If I had known he was a Palestinian, I would have thrown him off of the roof of the patrol car.

How about this real quote [thetruthseeker.co.uk]:

We have to make sure that no Palestinian individual remains under our occupation. If they (Palestinians) escape then it is good; but if anyone of them remains, then he should be exterminated.

Or this real quote [wordpress.com]:

"behind the Kotel we have a mosque. But when they pray even though they are in our holiest place, they face Mecca. Their back is to Jerusalem. So you can see from only one sign that it does not belong to them. They have nothing - no connection."

So are you up to the challenge? Your job will be to teach the Hebrew speaking children of Russian immigrants (many of them criminals) to Israel to speak English like Meir Kahane. Its going to be tough and you need to have the right qualifications.

Very often when there is a shortage, we put in people who are not completely qualified. But we dont take in anybody. Steiner said.

No, they do not just take anybody. It turns out that you have to be a Jew.

Imagine seeing an add in the Chronicle of Higher Education:

Seeking Professor of Middle Eastern History at (blah blah) University. Only Muslims may apply.

So, put on your Yarmulka and get that job. Then you can teach the kids to read the Geneva conventions.

Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)

Categories: Uncategorized [wordpress.com]
Tagged: Amran Abu Hamadiyah [wordpress.com], Butbika [wordpress.com], Edward Mosberg [wordpress.com], IDF [wordpress.com], Imran Abu Hamdiya [wordpress.com], Israel [wordpress.com], Palestine [wordpress.com]

Re:We have our own "Uday Husseins" (1)

Philip K Dickhead (906971) | more than 4 years ago | (#28076007)

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/5/21/734169/-A-Deeply-Unfair-Cast-of-Mind [dailykos.com]

Thu May 21, 2009 at 08:22:20 PM PDT

May 21, 2009

At Abu Ghraib, a few sadistic prison guards abused inmates in violation of American law, military regulation, and simple decency. For the harm they did to Iraqi prisoners and to America's cause, they deserved and received Army justice.

And it takes a deeply unfair cast of mind to equate the disgraces of Abu Ghraib with the lawful, skillful, and entirely honorable work of CIA personnel trained to deal with a few malevolent men.

  Dick Cheney [cnn.com]

Setting the Conditions

  August 31 to September 9, 2003

Major General Geoffrey Miller, commander of the prison at Guantanamo Bay, leads a survey team to plan intelligence, interrogation, and detention operations in Iraq.

September 5, 2003

A JPRA (SERE [dailykos.com]) training team arrives in Iraq. Their visit includes Abu Ghraib.

September 6, 2003

Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld tours Abu Ghraib.

September 9, 2003

General Miller delivers his recommendations. Guantanamo Bay should be used as a baseline. Interrogation in Iraq should be consolidated in one place. MPs should work to set the conditions for interrogation.

Dedicate and train a detention guard force subordinate to the JIDC Commander that sets the conditions for the successful interrogation and exploitation of internees/detainees. This action is now in progress.

  General Geoffrey Miller [aclu.org]

I had conversations with MG Miller on a couple of occasions.... Specifically, I recall he discussed the implementation of dedicated MP support to MI.

  Captain Carolyn Wood [aclu.org]

They [MPs] would be the bad guys and MI would be the good guy to gather information.

  Colonel Jerry Phillabaum [aclu.org]

Training

October 1, 2003

The 372nd MP Company, a reserve unit, moves to Abu Ghraib. It gets two weeks on-the-job training. Nudity, sexual humiliation, stress positions, sleep deprivation, and sensory deprivation are all standard procedures when the 372nd arrives.

This is also the deadline date for centralizing and consolidating interrogation and detention at Abu Ghraib. Most other locations in Iraq are now intended as 72-hour holding sites.

October 3 or 4, 2003

3:00 or 4:00 p.m.

Military police transport a prisoner to the hard site.

One of them whispered in my ear, "today I am going to fuck you", and he said this in Arabic. Whoever was with me experienced the same thing. That's what the American soldiers did.... When they took me to the cell, the translator Abu Hamid came with an American soldier and his rank was sergeant (I believe). And he called told me "faggot" because I was wearing the woman's underwear, and my answer was "no". Then he told me "why are you wearing this underwear", then I told them "because you make me wear it."

  Kasim Hilas [washingtonpost.com] (#151108)

October 5

Three Guantanamo Tiger Teams arrive for duty at Abu Ghraib. Their task is to help set up and develop the interrogation center.

October 7, 2003

A training team from the military intelligence school at Fort Huachuca arrives at Abu Ghraib. Their course was originally developed for reservists at Guantanamo Bay.

Military intelligence soldiers with a service history at Bagram conduct an interrogation.

She was escorted downstairs to another cell where she was shown a naked male detainee and told the same would happen to her if she did not cooperate. She was then taken back to her cell, forced to kneel and raise her arms while one of the Soldiers (SOLDIER31, A/519 MI BN) removed her shirt. She began to cry, and her shirt was given back as the Soldier cursed at her and said they would be back each night.

  Fay Report [findlaw.com]

October 8, 2003

Military police transport a prisoner to the hard site.

He told me to take a shower and he said he would come inside and rape me and I was very scared. Then they put the sand bag over my head and took me to cell #5. And for the next five days I didn't sleep because they use to come to my cell, asking me to stand up for hours and hours.

  Ameen al-Sheikh [washingtonpost.com] (#151362)

About October 8, 2003

A trainer from Fort Huachuca speaks off-hours with contract interrogator Steve Stefanowicz. The trainer recommends that Stefanowitz talk to military police about the possibilities for the use of dogs, and that photos of harsh treatment be taken to show and scare detainees.

I used some extremely harsh words to describe the level of fear the prisoner should feel. I told him that this fear, the guards, this place all come together to create a harsh environment and that this sets the stage for the interrogation. I told him that he should be the first friendly face the prisoner sees, and the prisoner will want to talk to relieve his fear.

  Sergeant Walters [aclu.org]

Taking Command

October 15, 2003

The 372nd MP Company takes command of Abu Ghraib.

Captain Christopher Brinson, a grade above the usual platoon leader, is made Officer in Charge of the hard site, a segregation ward holding a mix of juveniles, women, prisoners with mental problems, punishment cases, Military Intelligence holds, and OGA "ghost" detainees.

October 18, 2003

9:00 p.m.

  [salon.com]

And the first punishment was taking me to room #1, and they put handcuffs on my hand and they cuffed me high for 7 or 8 hours. And that caused a rupture to my right hand and I had a cut that was bleeding and had pus coming from it.

  Amjed Waleed [washingtonpost.com] (#151365)

October 20, 2003

12:29 a.m.

Between rounds of waking prisoners up, MP Sabrina Harman writes home.

Most have been so scared they piss on themselves.

  Specialist Sabrina Harman [newyorker.com]

1:35 a.m.

  [salon.com]

1:53 a.m.

  [salon.com]

October 21, 2003

Prisoner #151365 (three photos, above) is interrogated.

Prisoner #150425 is punished on discovery of a shank made from a broken toothbrush.

The guard came and cuffed me to the cell door for two hours, after that they took me to a closed room and more than five guards poured cold water on me, and forced me to put my head in someone's urine that was already in the room. After that they beat me with a broom and stepped on my head with their feet while it was still in the urine. They pressed my ass with a broom and spit on it.

  Abd Alwhab Youss [washingtonpost.com] (#150425)

October 23, 2003

The International Committee of the Red Cross ends a three-day visit.

10:50 p.m.

  [salon.com]

Acts of humiliation ... while being laughed at by guards, including female guards...

  International Committee of the Red Cross [antiwar.com]

I get to laugh at them and throw corn at them.

  Specialist Sabrina Harman [newyorker.com]

Point at him and laugh at him while he was in the shower naked.

  Specialist Megan Ambuhl [youtube.com]

Pretending to drag him on a leash type thing.

  Private Lynndie England [publicintegrity.org]

...were used by the military intelligence in a systematic way to gain confessions and extract information.

  International Committee of the Red Cross [antiwar.com]

October 25, 2003

Around midnight:

I saw the translator Abu Hamid fucking a kid. his age be would be about 15-18 years. The kid was hurting very bad and they covered all the doors with sheets.

  Kasim Hilas [washingtonpost.com] (#151108)

Approx. noon:

Patient was raped in hardcell, needs check up

For any injury to Rectum area

15 yo. male. Speaks reluctantly, fearfully.

Through interpreter, states he was threatened by 2 other

inmates with death unless he complied.

...

No DNA evidence or swabs

done per instruction of CPT [Redacted] of MPs.

Detainee Medical Records [aclu.org]

[aclu.org]

8:16 p.m.

  [salon.com]

He [General Sanchez] said they are like dogs and if you allow them to believe at any point that they are more than a dog then you've lost control of them.

  General Janis Karpinski [bbc.co.uk] (June 2004)

After 10:00 p.m.

They brought three prisoners completely naked and they tied them together with cuffs and they stuck one to another. I saw the American soldier hitting them with a football and they were taking pictures. I saw Grainer hitting one of the prisoners right in the face very hard when he refused to take off his underwear and I heard them begging for help.

  Kasim Hilas [washingtonpost.com] (#151108)

One of the MI soldiers pointed to the naked detainees and said "These are the people who raped a little boy".... Then the MI soldiers ordered all three detainees to low crawl on the floor. When the detainees attempted to arch up, two of the MI soldiers put pressure in the middle of their backs and yelled at them to get down.

  Sergeant Ken Davis [aclu.org]

11:06 p.m.

  [salon.com]

Are you gay? Do you like what is happening to you? Are you all gays? These were some of the questions or things that I told them.

  Adel Nakhla [aclu.org], a.k.a. Abu Hamid

October 26, 2003

About midnight:

Before Ramadan, Grainer covered all the rooms with bed sheets. Then I heard screams coming from Room #1, at that time I was in Room #50 and it's right below me so I looked into the room. I saw A---- in Room #1, who was naked and Grainer was putting the phosphoric light up his ass. A----- was screaming for help. There was another tall white man who was with Grainer, he was helping him. There was also a white female soldier, short, she was taking pictures.

  Mustafa Jassim Mustafa [washingtonpost.com] (#150542)

They put the sheets on the door again. Grainer and his helper they cuffed one prisoner in Room #1, named A---- he was Iraqi citizen. They tied him to the bed and they were inserted the phosphoric light in his ass and he was yelling for God's help. ... That was Ramadan, around twelve midnight approximately when I saw them putting the stick in his ass. The female soldier was taking pictures.

  Kasim Hilas [washingtonpost.com] (#151108)

Then they broke the glowing finger and spread it on me until I was glowing and they were laughing. They took me to the room and they signaled me to get on to the floor. And one of the police he put a part of his stick that he always carries inside my ass and I felt it going inside me about 2 centimeters, approximately. And I started screaming, and he pulled it out and he washed it with water inside the room.

  Amjed Waleed [washingtonpost.com] (#151365)

Sunrise:

Ramadan starts.

Day:

MP chain of command, MI chain of command, and criminal investigation are informed of the previous night's events.

Joyner said he would tell his NCOIC about it. He left and came back later and told me it had been taken care of.

  Specialist Hannah Schlegel [supportmpscapegoats.com]

They told me they knew about it and I should not have been told about this. I went ahead and reported it to CID just in case they had not heard. They said they knew bout it.

  Sergeant [E. DeLaRosa?] [aclu.org], Fusion Analysis Cell NCOIC

Coming back from the missions, my lieutenant was out back of our living facility. And I said, sir, I need to talk to you.

  Sergeant Ken Davis [cnn.com]

Roughly midnight:

And they repeated the same thing the second day of Ramadan.

  Kasim Hilas [washingtonpost.com] (#151108)

October 27, 2003

Short hundreds of meals every feeding, bugs and dirt are found in the meals several times a week, and for the past two days prisoners have been vomitting after they eat.

  Major David Dinenna [publicintegrity.org]

October 29, 2003

Amjed Waleed (see Oct. 26 [slashdot.org]) is interrogated.

November 2, 2003

Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez visits Abu Ghraib and speaks with interrogators.

8:54 p.m.

  [salon.com]

November 4, 2003

After 1:00 a.m.

A convoy of thirty to thirty-five Navy Seals in six or seven Humvees, plus two OGA Chevy Suburbans, arrives at Manadel al-Jamadi's three-story apartment building near Baghdad. Polish commandos serve as security.

The team blows down the door of the wrong apartment. The male occupant is detained.

As an explosive charge is being placed on the correct door, someone inside opens it. The suspect is tackled. A brief and brutal fight ensues. Al-Jamadi's stove falls on Al-Jamadi. He is subdued.

Al-Jamadi and his neighbor are thrown into a Humvee. Al-Jamadi is driven to a pre-established location, where he is identified by a waiting informant.

Al-Jamadi is taken to FOB St. Michael, where he is beaten by turns.

About 3:00 a.m:

Al-Jamadi is taken to Camp Jenny Pozzi at Baghdad International Airport. He is in-processed in the "volleyball pit" and interrogated in the "romper room" by the CIA and Navy Seals. Blood seeps from the sandbag over his head, and he occasionally slumps unconscious in his chair.

After an interrogation, Al-Jamadi's neighbor is released.

About 5:00 a.m.

CIA agents Mark Swanner and "Clint C." bring al-Jamadi to Abu Ghraib. He is wearing a shirt but no pants.

About 6:00 a.m.

The CIA has MPs shackle al-Jamadi with his arms behind his back, hanging from a bar in a window of the shower room in the hard site. As he hangs from his arms, he has six broken ribs, a broken nose, a contusion and fluid accumulation in his left lung, and a plastic sandbag over his head.

About 6:45 a.m.

The CIA calls for MPs to shackle al-Jamadi higher. Three MPs reposition him, but he immediately collapses. His hood is removed and he is checked for signs of life.

About 6:55 a.m.

Al-Jamadi is unshackled and lowered to the floor.

Blood came gushing out of his nose and mouth, as if a faucet had been turned on.

  Sergeant Jeffrey Frost [newyorker.com]

Shortly after:

Several MP Sergeants, Captain Brinson, two medics, several OGAs, an Iraqi doctor, MI Lieutenant Colonel Jordan, an army doctor, MI Colonel Pappas, MP Captain Reese, and a Major arrive. The CIA calls Washington, and directs that Al-Jamadi's body be held until the next day.

Midafternoon:

Captain Brinson has al-Jamadi's body placed in a bag and packed with ice.

4:00 p.m.

The afternoon shift change meeting is held.

He [Captain Brinson] said there was a prisoner who had died in the shower, and he died of a heart attack.

  Specialist Sabrina Harman [newyorker.com]

11:04 p.m.

  [salon.com]
 

He was to be kept awake for three days and pretty much harassed.

  Corporal Charles Graner [salon.com]

To say, hey if you fall off you're going to be electrocuted, I mean, that would keep anybody awake. So it was part of the sleep plan.

  Specialist Sabrina Harman [youtube.com]

And he took the hood off and he was describing some of the poses he wanted me to do, and the I was tired and I fell down.

  Abdou Hussain Saad Faleh [washingtonpost.com] (#18170)

November 5, 2003

1:21 a.m.

  [salon.com]

About 3:30 a.m.

Two prisoners escape through the window of their cell.

About 10:00 a.m

Al-Jamadi's body is placed on a gurney and an I.V. is put in his arm. The body is taken from the prison and put in an ambulance or a taxi.

Unknown time:

And then they stripped me naked and they took me under the water and then he made me crawl the hallway until I was bleeding from my chest to my knees and my hands. And after that he put me back into the cell and an hour later took me out from the cell the second time to the shower room under cold water and then he made me get up on a box, naked, and he hit me on my manhood.

  Asad Hanfosh [washingtonpost.com] (#152529)

November 7, 2003

10:15 p.m.

Seven prisoners are transported to the hard site.

One day in Ramadan, I don't know the exact date, we were involved in a fight in Compound 2, so they transferred us to the hardsite. As soon as we arrived, they put sandbags over our heads and they kept beating us and called us bad names. After they removed the sandbags they stripped us naked as a newborn baby. Then they ordered us to hold our penises and stroke it and this was only during the night. They started to take photographs as if it was a porn movie. And they treated us like animals not humans. They kept doing this for a long time. No one showed us mercy. Nothing but cursing and beating.

  Nori al-Yassiri [washingtonpost.com] (#7787)

11:16 p.m.

  [salon.com]

I don't know if he hit every single one, but pretty close because he hit a lot of people. During the time he was hitting the detainees, he posed for a photograph in which it looked like he was going to hit the detainee. After the photo was taken, he continued to hit the detainees.

  Specialist Matt Wisdom [publicintegrity.org]

11:44 p.m.

They brought my friends, Haidar, Ahmed, Nouri, Ahzem, Hashiem, Mustafa, and I, and they put us 2 on the bottom, 2 on top of them, and 2 on top of those and one on top. They took pictures of us and we were naked.

  Hussein Al-Zayiadi [washingtonpost.com] (#19446)

November 8, 2003

12:14 a.m.

  [salon.com]

Sometime before dawn:

After the end of the beating, they took us to our separate cells and they opened the water in the cell, and they told us to to lie face down in the water and we stayed like that until the morning, in the water, naked, without clothes.

  Hussein Al-Zayiadi [washingtonpost.com] (#19446)

They took us to our cells, took the mattresses out and dropped water on the floor and they made us sleep on our stomachs on the floor with the bags on our head and they took pictures of everything.

  Hiadar Abed Miktub-Aboodi [washingtonpost.com] (#13077)

Before 8:22 p.m.

Six prisoners escape from Ganci Compound 8.

November 9, 2003

CPL Graner showed still photographs of what happened to his MP platoon Chain of Command and requested to be removed from the prison. He was told to keep following military intelligence instructions by his Platoon Leader.

  Specialist Megan Ambuhl [supportmpscapegoats.com]

MP Sabrina Harman writes home.

We might be under investigation. I’m not sure, there’s talk about it. Yes, they do beat the prisoners up and I’ve written this to you before.

  Specialist Sabrina Harman [nytimes.com]

About November 13, 2003

MI interrogator Luciana Spencer and analyst Armin Cruz write up an interrogation plan.

Detainee should be treated harshly because friendly treatment has not been productive and because COL Pappas wants fast resolution.

  Interrogator Notes [findlaw.com] (Fay incidents #44)

Roughly 2:00 a.m.

When they finished interrogating me, the female interrogator left. And then Grainer and another man, who looked like Grainer but doesn't have glasses, and has a thin mustache, and he was young and tall, came into the room. They threw pepper on my face and the beating started. This went on for a half hour. And then he started beating me with the chair until the chair was broken. After that they started choking me. At that time I thought I was going to die, but it's a miracle I lived. And then they started beating me again. They concentrated on beating me in my heart until they got tired from beating me. They took a little break and then they started kicking me very hard with their feet until I passed out.

  Walid Mohanded Juma [washingtonpost.com] (#152307)

November 14, 2003

2:40 a.m.

A Tiger Team finishes up a two hour interrogation of a detainee.

IT SHOULD BE DULY NOTED THAT FEAR OF RE-RE WILL BE USED, AS WELL AS GAY UP HARSH, AND GROUND-HOG DAY APPROACH. SOURCE IS A FAG, OF HIGH INTEL VALUE, AND SHOULD STAY IN THE HOLE. HE IS BAD. HE IS MEAN. I DON'T LIKE HIM. HE CAN KILL. HE IS BAD.

  Interrogator [aclu.org]

I THINK THAT IN ADDITION TO ALL APPROACHES, FEAR OF BROOMSTICK IN THE ASS SHOULD BE USED. HE IS BAD.

  Analyst [aclu.org]

Evening:

MPs transport six bound and hooded "Iraqi Generals" from Camp Vigilant to the hard site.

5:40 p.m.

  [smh.com.au] [salon.com]

About 6:00 p.m.

Prison officials are summoned after receiving reports there was "a blood smear on a wall."

Lipinski said when he arrived with Capt. Christopher Brinson to investigate, they saw a prisoner sitting against the wall with his face bloodied. He said Graner first told prison officials the detainee had "stumbled on a pile of rubble."

  Newspaper report of Graner's trial [pittsburghlive.com]

After 8:00 p.m.

Captain Brinson downgrades MI treatment instructions for the new arrivals.

November 16, 2003

Graner receives a written counseling statement.

CPL Graner, you are doing a fine job in Tier I of the BCF. As the NCOIC of the "MI Hold" area, you have received many accolades from the MI units here...

There was an incident on 14 NOV 03 involving a security detainee whose actions in your words required you to use force to regain control of the situation. The detainee received abrasions and cuts on his face from the incident. Let me state first and foremost, you have an inherent right to self-defense.... Unless other evidence presents itself, I accept your version of events.

  Captain Christopher Brinson [supportmpscapegoats.com]

November 19, 2003

Command of Abu Ghraib is transferred from Military Police to Military Intelligence.

The FRAGO generated tension between MI and the MPs. The MP chain of command pulled the MP detail dedicated to MI for transportation of detainees between their holding area and the interrogation booths.

  Captain Carolyn Wood [aclu.org]

November 24, 2003

1:00 p.m.

A disturbance breaks out at Camp Ganci. Guards shoot four detainees, killing three. Nine U.S. soldiers are injured.

About 6:00 p.m

A prisoner, perhaps Amjed [slashdot.org] Waleed [slashdot.org], has informed MPs that another detainee has a handgun smuggled into his cell. MI Lieutenant Colonel Steve Jordan and 4 MPs form an ad-hoc search team: prison command and the internal reaction force are not informed.

A firefire ensues. Sergeant William Cathcart is shot in the chest but protected by his kevlar vest. The detainee is shot with nonlethal rounds, then lethal shotgun rounds to his legs.

[salon.com]

About 10:00 p.m.

All five dog teams and the internal reaction force arrive at the hard site.

The area was in disarray with mattresses, clothes, and trash thrown all over the place. There was one individual that appeared to be in charge, but I don't know who it was. He was about five foot, six inches to five foot, seven inches tall, medium build, medium to light complexion, with blond hair in a "high and tight" style. I heard people referring to him as "captain".

  Petty Officer Bill Kimbro [aclu.org]

This CPT had come upstairs and pulled out an individual nicknamed [Redacted] and held him by the throat screaming at him. He was then taken into another cell where he was questioned and screamed at some more. This detainee was an informant and this was staged to make it appear that he was not assisting us with identifying the detainee that had the hand grenade. After interrogating the detainee the CPT went back downstairs and pulled out another detainee.

  Sergeant Darrell Plude [aclu.org]

On the top tear, I had a view of the Captain throwing the [second, downstairs] inmate against the wall. The inmate fell to the ground. The Captain began kicking the inmate in the mid section yelling at the inmate.

  Sergeant Greg Spiker [publicintegrity.org]

One soldier was standing next to the left side of the prisoner's head with the barrell of his rifle pressed against the prisoner's head. I observed the other soldier kneeling next to the right side of the prisoner at approximately waist level. I observed this soldier begin to strike the prisoner in the small of the back with a closed fist. The soldier struck the prisoner approximately ten times. The soldier then stood up and kicked the prisoner in the right hip and right side approximately three times.

  Specialist John Polak [publicintegrity.org]

The detainee was screaming while this was going on. The CPT stated "You like hurting my soldiers". The kicks were full force into the detainee.

  Sergeant Greg Spiker [publicintegrity.org]

Very shortly later, in a separate event:

I saw the dog during this strike the detainee. The detainee was bound and could not move, and the handler would allow the K-9 to approach within inches his face, and one time the dog bit the detainee's arm. When I saw the detainee later it appeared the detainee was bitten multiple times.

  Sergeant Greg Spiker [publicintegrity.org]

About the same time, in another incident:

Navy dog handler Kimbro is called to a cell. Yelling from inside the cell agitates his dog. The dog lunges inside the cell, and snips at Titan contractor Etaf Mheisen. Kimbro leaves the hard site.

November 25, 2003

Ramadan ends.

November 30, 2003

Military intelligence draws up an interrogation plan for Juwad Ali Khalf (#151363).

If the detainee has not broken yet, interrogators will move into the segregation phase of the approach. Interrogators will coordinate with Military Police guards in the segregation area prior to initiation of this phase. For the segregation phase of the approach the MPs will put an empty sandbag onto the prisoners head before moving him out of Vigilant B. This measure will be for force protection purposes and transporting the detainee to the segregation area by HMMWV. MPs will be transporting the detainee with the interrogators present. During transportation, the Fear up Harsh approach will be continued, highlighting the Allah factor. Interrogators will take all necessary precautions in conjunction with the MPs to ensure detainee's safety during transport. Upon arrival at site, MP guards will take him into custody. MP working dogs will be present and barking during this phase.

  Colonel Tom Pappas [publicintegrity.org]

Early December, 2003

An Iraqi Policeman is interrogated by CACI contractor Daniel Johnson, with Titan interpreter Etaf Mheisen.

  [salon.com]

I was standing outside the door. Now the way it worked was he [Johnson] would be questioning the guy and if he didn't answer, Johnson would say he was going to have me come in the room. That was my key to come into the room.

  Sergeant Chip Frederick [salon.com]

December 10, 2003

MPs write up an SOP for the use of dogs.

CPT Hampton prepared it, I proofread it, and LTC Phillabaum signed it.

  Major David Dinenna [publicintegrity.org]

December 12, 2003

10:47 p.m.

  [salon.com]

And I also saw in Room #5 they brought the dogs. Grainer brought the dogs and they bit him in the right and left leg. He was from Iran and they started beating him up in the main hallway of the prison.

  Walid Juma [washingtonpost.com] (#152307)

Tonight ended up being the same ole same ole.... Inmate tries to break out of cell i find out i punish i bring in dogs i get assaulted dog bites prisoner.

  Corporal Charles Graner [salon.com]

I'd rather not discuss the incident.

  Sergeant Santos Cardona [publicintegrity.org]

.

December 13, 2003

10:20 a.m.

A fight breaks out at Ganci compound 8. Nonlethal rounds are fired to disperse it.

11:20 a.m.

A fight breaks out at Ganci compound 2. Nonlethal rounds are fired to disperse it.

4:42 p.m.

A fight breaks out at Ganci compound 3. Nonlethal rounds are fired to disperse it.

8:30 p.m.

Saddam Hussein is captured near Tikrit.

December 14, 2003

The St. Petersburg Times profiles the 800th MP brigade commander.

Living conditions now are better in prison than at home.

  General Janis Karpinski [sptimes.com]

December 19, 2003

Captain Brinson finishes his tour and is released from active duty. He relinquishes command of the hard site.

December 30, 2003

  [salon.com]

I was told by his interrogator, Big Steve, that he was al-Qaida.... He said, "Any chance you get, put the dogs on."

  Sergeant Chip Frederick [salon.com]

January 4 to 8, 2004

The International Committee of the Red Cross visits Abu Ghraib. Colonel Pappas and Colonel Warren deny access to eight detainees. A High Value Detainee is being held in a lightless latrineless 6' by 3' cell with a sign on the door: "The Gollum".

The translator stood at the end of the corridor and shouted to us: "Look all of you. The Red Cross will come to you today and if you say anything more than what is allowed then you will see a very, very dark day today and tomorrow will be darker and so on and so on."

  Saddam al-Rawi [guardian.co.uk] (#200144)

January 13, 2004

1:30 p.m.

Khaled al-Maqtari is captured in "Operation Market Sweep" in Fallujah and helicoptered to Abu Ghraib. He will spend nine days at Abu Ghraib, three months in a dark prison in Afghanistan, more than two years at a "black site" prison, perhaps in Europe, and some eight months in a jail in Yemen.

Evening or night:

Al-Maqtari has his clothes cut off with scissors, and is hooded and shackled. He is beaten in turns and is swung in circles to disorient him so he will run into walls. He is placed in front of an air conditioner and doused with water. When he can no longer hold aloft a case of bottled water, he is beaten with a stick. When he is near to passing out, smelling salts and vapor rub are used to revive him.

He is then suspended upside down on a chain from the ceiling, and raised and lowered onto the water crate with a pulley.

[amnesty.org]

About 10;15 p.m.

Specialist Joseph Darby leaves two CDs of abuse photographs in the room of a military investigator.

When I learned CPL GRAINER was going to go back and work at the Hard Site, which is where the photos showing the prisoners being abused occurred. I knew I had to do something.

  Specialist Joseph Darby [publicintegrity.org]

Investigation

January 16, 2004

Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez orders a criminal investigation into reports of abuse at the prison.

The base commander orders amnesty boxes placed around the Abu Ghraib military base.

personnel will neither create nor possess photographs, videotapes, digital videos, CD/DVDs, computer files/folders, movies or any other medium containing images of any criminal or security detainee....

Personnel will have the opportunity to place all prohibited items or paraphernalia into the Amnesty Box without penalty or legal consequence.

  Colonel Tom Pappas [supportmpscapegoats.com]

January 31, 2004

Major General Antonio Taguba is appointed to conduct an inquiry of MPs.

February 2, 2004

General Taguba visits Abu Ghraib.

About February 2 to February 20, 2004

Investigators cannot locate Lieutenant Colonel Steve Jordan for interview.

April 28, 2004

  60 Minutes II [cbsnews.com] airs a story and photos about the abuse.

May 3, 2004

  The New Yorker [newyorker.com] publishes photos of the abuse.

June 6, 2004

A review of all the computer media submitted to this office revealed a total of 1,325 images of suspected detainee abuse, 93 video files of suspected detainee abuse, 660 images of adult pornography, 546 images of suspected dead Iraqi detainees, 29 images of soldiers in simulated sexual acts, 20 images of a soldier with a Swastika drawn between his eyes, 37 images of Military Working dogs being used in abuse of detainees and 125 images of questionable acts.

  Special Agent James Seigmund [salon.com]

June 9, 2004

Captain Brinson offers to make a statement to investigators in return for immunity. His offer is declined.

July 17, 2004

Investigators are looking into an International Committee of the Red Cross report of a prisoner being handcuffed for eight hours while held at the hard site.

It is true that on more than one occasion detainee was shackled to the floor and blindfolded during interrogations.

  Section lead, force protection Tiger Teams [aclu.org]

Read this carefully.... If the detainee is the one we have in custody, interrogate him for lying.

  Multinational Coalition Investigations Operations Officer [aclu.org]

August 2, 2004

CID investigators are looking into allegations of abuse by military intelligence soldiers on Sept. 20, 2003.

Information obtained by MG [Fay] office could not be released by order of the Secretary of Defense.

  Summary of Investigative Activity [aclu.org]

January 2006

Captain Brinson receives a reprimand.

January 10, 2006

Major General Geoffrey Miller invokes his right against self-incrimination in court-martial proceedings against two MP dog handlers.

August 2007

Lieutenant Colonel Steve Jordan is the only commissioned officer court martialed for involvement in the abuse. He receives a reprimand and a fine. The reprimand is cleared from his record in January 2008.

May 21, 2009

Charles Graner serves ten years sentence [salon.com] at Fort Levenworth.

Christopher Brinson walks the halls of Congress [house.gov]: he is legislative director for Representative Mike Rogers of Alabama.

Okay (1)

copponex (13876) | more than 4 years ago | (#28039073)

This is really, really fucking easy. In fact, it's so easy, I'm amazed I even have these conversations, because the facts are so obvious.

Does the American government care if people are denied freedom under fundamentalist interpretations of muslim law? If they did, why did they support the Taleban before 9/11? Why do they continue to support Saudi Arabia? Why aren't they lobbying for human rights in muslim countries in Africa?

Does the American government care if a leader is massacring his own people? If they did, they wouldn't have given Saddam the biochemical agents to gas the Kurds, or given Suharto in Indonesia the arms he needed to kill East Timorese, or stood by while the Rwanda descended into hell in and genocide.

So what is all this bullshit about freedom and liberty? A nice way to sell the lie to the American people that deploying the military is helping someone besides our paranoid military planners and the corporations who are rewarded with tens of billions of dollars when we are at war, and with hundreds of billions of dollars every year in "defense" spending.

What is the truth? The truth is that the Pentagon supports whatever country is doing as they are told. When they lose control, they send in the CIA to foment a coup, or in cases where they can propagandize the public enough, they send in the troops. This is the definition of tyranny, and America has been living it for 60 years.

You want statistics? Add up how many Americans have been killed by foreigners on US soil. Add up how many foreigners have been killed by Americans on their soil. I don't even have to do the math, and unless you are Sean Hannity, you already know what the result is going to be.

And unfortunately, even comparing the embargo before 2003 to the casualties during the war and after will reveal that we did far more damage than Saddam.

The picture in Iraq is not rosy. It will take them decades to get back to where they were in 2002. Watch the video below. Eight minutes in she says, "Everything you see that looks like water is not. It is sewage... According to the GAO, the children who are age 15 and younger are less literate than their parents... over 25% of primary school age children do not attend school."

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5519287956645135226 [google.com]

Re:Massacre or fight for freedom (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28038431)

If you believe Amnesty International's figures

WHY would you do that?

Amnesty International's numbers for civilian deaths in Iraq are an order of magnitude greater than all other estimates, were compiled by a person who was actively involved in trying to prevent any invasion, were deliberately released right before a US election in order to influence the results, and the raw data used to come up with the estimate still has not been released.

In other words, those estimates are about as biased as they could possibly be.

The bias in and of itself doesn't mean their numbers are wrong, but the fact those numbers are so out-of-line with every other estimate when combined with the obvious bias means anyone who cites them either has an agenda or is woefully ignorant. Or both.

Re:Massacre or fight for freedom (1)

tsm_sf (545316) | more than 4 years ago | (#28040843)

The bias in and of itself doesn't mean their numbers are wrong, but the fact those numbers are so out-of-line with every other estimate when combined with the obvious bias means anyone who cites them either has an agenda or is woefully ignorant. Or both.

I'm trying to think of when these 'numbers' would be mentioned by someone without an agenda.

Re:Massacre or fight for freedom (3, Informative)

ruin20 (1242396) | more than 4 years ago | (#28038785)

Ok, so he hung 200 people publicly a year. From 1991 to 2003 is 12 years so 2400 people.
Then add a conservative 5000 (Probably closer to 10000 since many of the injured died of complicationis) from the Halabja poison gas attack [wikipedia.org] and we're just getting started. That was just one part of the Al-Anfal Campaign [wikipedia.org] where he killed roughly 100,000. That's just violence against the Kurds which is the most well documented. And the hangings don't account for the shootings and killings post Gulf War when he quelled the Shiite Rebellion. Body count puts the Iraq war collateral damage total at about 100,000. [iraqbodycount.org] So in fact we haven't killed as many Iraqis as Saddam.

Motivations for war aside, the operation has been exceedingly poorly executed, and may be inexcusable. But lets not delude ourselves into thinking "Well, Saddam wasn't that bad". He was worse.

Re:Massacre or fight for freedom (2, Insightful)

Lars T. (470328) | more than 4 years ago | (#28041025)

If Saddam was worse, why did all those people fleeing Iraq waited until the invasion?

Low Bodycount (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28045419)

BodyCount is one source, at around 100 000. The Lancet survey, a fairly well-respected medical journal, puts the number of Iraqis killed at 600 000+ [thelancet.com] as of 2006. The Opinion Business Research journal puts the number of people killed at over 1 000 000 [opinion.co.uk] (update here [opinion.co.uk]).

You are keeping in mind that Saddam was supported (including obtaining chemical weapons) by the US throughout the 80s? Also, he and his military were allowed to kill many Kurds at the end of the Gulf War in the 90s (didn't you wonder why General Schwartzkoff gave him permission to fly his bombers?). You're right about one thing, let's not delude ourselves even if we don't like what we find out, particularly if it's about ourselves.

You're missing a moral difference (2, Insightful)

MikeRT (947531) | more than 4 years ago | (#28039253)

I am not an admirer of Saddam or his yobbish sons, but the story is not as clear cut as you would like to believe.

There is a moral difference between the US killing 5000 civilians who get caught up in the crossfire between US troops and Iraqi insurgents and Saddam killing 50 people because they were "enemies of the state." The "anti-war" movement blurs the distinction between unfortunate facts of war and murder. Plenty of innocent French, Italians and Belgians died as the allies pushed the Germans out of their countries, but there is an extreme difference between those casualties and willfully inflicted murders.

I didn't support the war in Iraq as a matter of principle. I don't believe it's worth American lives, treasure or liberty to get involved in these matters unless either we're going to end up in the aggressors' crosshairs at some point, or the country serves a strategic interest that we cannot ignore. Very, very few conflicts have ever fit those descriptions.

Re:You're missing a moral difference (1)

ShakaUVM (157947) | more than 4 years ago | (#28043821)

There is a moral difference between the US killing 5000 civilians who get caught up in the crossfire between US troops and Iraqi insurgents and Saddam killing 50 people because they were "enemies of the state."

Meh, there's no point arguing with moral relativists on this one. Mainly, they just dislike the US, so they claim that live was all rainbows and rivers of chocolate under Saddam, and that everything bad in the Middle East is somehow our fault.

Re:You're missing a moral difference (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28047431)

Mainly, they just dislike the US, so they claim that live was all rainbows and rivers of chocolate under Saddam, and that everything bad in the Middle East is somehow our fault.

You don't have to claim that life was perfect under Saddam to put blame on the US. Saddam's rise to power was supported by the US in their efforts to install strong anti-communist leadership in the region. The start of US meddling in the region didn't begin with the Iraq war or even the gulf war before it, there's a long history on which to place blame for the US.

But, then again, the UK can shoulder quite a bit of the criticisms too, since much of the strife in the regions can be traced back to their meddling long before the US ever got involved.

moral indifference (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28045855)

Let's talk about morals, which should first bring to mind the most common of all morals, treat others as you want to be treated; as in don't be a hypocrite.

Let's pretend to be ignorant by ignoring the history of US involvement in supporting Saddam (while he killed Iraqis) in the 1980s and 90s. Iraq didn't declare war on the US, and no UN council recommended that anyone go in, so the US invaded for its own purposes. Would you support some country, say Saudi Arabia, invading the US for its own purposes?

You say the US kills some insurgents and 5000 civilians in a crossfire. Another way to put it is an invading force kills 5000+ locals. If Great Britain were to invade California, killing 5000 Californians and some number of Mexicans (who were there to help Californians), would this be OK? Even if the US government had falsely imprisoned or killed some Californians, would that make it OK?

I'm not sure what you mean by "strategic interest," but it's usually a catch-phrase for resource-hording corporations. You're right to beware of blurring, it's a common propagandist technique (see "glittering generalities"). In this case though, "unfortunate facts of war" and "murder" is a distinction without a difference.

Re:You're missing a moral difference (1)

Lars T. (470328) | more than 4 years ago | (#28053045)

Yeah, there obviously is a difference between Saddam killing 50 "enemies of the state" and the US trying to kill 50 "insurgents" and actually killing 5000 civilians as a bonus. Gee, I wonder when you will be able to tell it.

Re:Massacre or fight for freedom (1)

DNS-and-BIND (461968) | more than 4 years ago | (#28044051)

If you believe Amnesty Internationals figures

I would no sooner believe them than I would a tramp on the street. AI and the US government are just two sides of the same coin.

Re:Massacre or fight for freedom (1)

weaseldaddy (1184973) | more than 4 years ago | (#28047725)

The hangings were public. How many people were taken in the night, and their bodies ended up in unmarked graves? According to this USAID report there are around 300 mass graves in Iraq that can be tied to the Baathist regime. http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/pdf/iraq_mass_graves.pdf

Re:What is treason? (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28037713)

Wikipedia is your friend. They have a whole article about casualties of the American invasion and occupation [wikipedia.org], and some good stuff about the Iran-Iraq war, too, though it's not as well-documented for obvious reasons.

It looks like GP is correct - Bush's war has probably killed more Iraqis than Saddam's did.

Re:What is treason? (1)

dbrutus (71639) | more than 4 years ago | (#28038349)

If you trust Wikipedia on controversial political matters, you're naive beyond belief. But just for fun, the Saddam launched Iran-Iraq war killed 1.3 million (using high estimates and adding both sides casualties just like the high counts do to the US in this conflict). That's twice the unbelievably high and already discredited Lancet figures. So believe Lancet or not but apples to apples please.

Re:What is treason? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28039049)

Hang on there - why are you now adding Iranian casualties? We are talking about Iraqi casualties here. Most (by far) of the losses in the Iran-Iraq war were on the Iranian side.

Re:What is treason? (1)

Lars T. (470328) | more than 4 years ago | (#28041097)

Hang on there - why are you now adding Iranian casualties? We are talking about Iraqi casualties here. Most (by far) of the losses in the Iran-Iraq war were on the Iranian side.

Don't worry, as soon as the US attacks Iran, he will count all of them as the victims of Iranian violence.

Re:What is treason? (1)

Lars T. (470328) | more than 4 years ago | (#28041079)

Well, let's put it this way - Saddam killed less people when he was America's enemy, then when he was America's darling - coincidence?

Re:What is treason? (1)

Knitebane (64590) | more than 4 years ago | (#28041241)

Yes, and Roosevelt's war with Japan killed more Americans than Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor.

Which means absolutely nothing, just like the ludicrous notion that somehow the war to topple the Hussein regime was somehow about stopping him from killing Iraqis. It wasn't. It was about stopping him from killing any Iraqi he wanted to because he could, because he held power via terror.

The difference, in case you really are as naive as you act rather than just having an advanced case of BDS, is that the people living in Iraq post-Saddam don't have to fear becoming a victim of Saddam any more.

The people of Iraq are now free. That a great many died in the process is unfortunate but that's sometimes what it takes to liberate entire societies from the Arab Socialist Ba'ath Party, the National Socialist German Worker's Party or the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

Re:What is treason? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28038289)

More Iraqis have died since the beginning of the Iraqi war than under Saddam's reign.

False.

Re:What is treason? (1)

magarity (164372) | more than 4 years ago | (#28037287)

What is treason? Depends on where you are. I hope you are not a US citizen because you should not have to ask. The definition of treason is clearly spelled out in the US Constitution: Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort
 
  But is that really what it boils down to when you prevent more deaths through dissemination of state secrets?
 
I think you should look up 'dissemination'; it has a much more innoccuous meaning than giving nuclear weapons teachnology to a hostile foreign dictatorship.

Re:What is treason? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28037775)

shall consist only in levying War against them

Using war powers to justify committing espionage against American citizens: check.

Re:What is treason? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28037363)

I can't find a connection between operating your own foreign policy (which is what Treason is the most extreme example, as providing aid and assistance to an enemy in opposition to your countries' stated aims)and being altruistically generous.

Claiming that the Rosenbergs "prevent more deaths through dissemination of state secrets" by their private Foreign Policy initiative is a reach; with Nuclear Weapons in hand Stalin could confidently essay supporting the North Korean Army in it's aggression, which was a notable waster of lives.

Can the lives lost in Korea and Vietnam be levied against the Rosenbergs' "prevent more deaths through dissemination of state secrets"? Perhaps if Stalin hadn't been confident that he'd have his own Nukes he might not have approved Lil' Kims' adventures in Southern Korea?

Re:What is treason? (1)

dbrutus (71639) | more than 4 years ago | (#28038377)

Without the Korean war, there might not even be a DPRK so some poor korean kid starving to death today can be laid on the Rosenberg's doorstep.

Re:What is treason? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28037393)

Can you prove that you would prevent more deaths through dissemination? Is your morality just?

If I act upon my own morality, I should be ready to accept the punishment. If I turn out to be wrong, then I should still be punished.

Of course, many people in history have committed "treason", only to be hailed as heroes afterwards.

Therefore, the burden should be on the people to speak out that this person is actually a "hero", and that he does not deserve his punishment. And in America, you are not prevented from speaking out.

Re:What is treason? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28037421)

Oh, I see ...It's not treason if if done by a Liberal.

Re:What is treason? (1)

wilder_card (774631) | more than 4 years ago | (#28037529)

You're seriously equating protesting Gulf War 2 with giving the nuclear bomb to an enemy country? What drugs are you on?

Re:What is treason? (1)

xouumalperxe (815707) | more than 4 years ago | (#28037577)

He's the Bad Analogy Guy. Even then, the analogy you read is too bad even for him. He was equating initiating the second Gulf War with spreading nuclear secrets. His point is that the war itself caused harm to the USA, not the protests.

Re:What is treason? (1)

inviolet (797804) | more than 4 years ago | (#28037659)

Many people have protested the Iraq War. And with good reason. It is almost wholly a bad war to have started without a plausible benefit for the American people. In fact, the only thing it has done is to deplete our treasure and kill many of our fine soldiers (not to mention many many of innocent Iraqis). Undertaking the war in Iraq is an act against our beloved American countrymen.

Other than the oil. The war got the taps going again [businessweek.com], and they now provide about 2.5% of the world's consumption, though that could rise as high as 10%.

Perhaps you do not assign any value to that, but the free market sure does. The cost of energy redounds in the cost of everything else, which means that our (everyone's) net quality of life is a function of it.

This is especially relevant becuase the demand curve for oil is highly inelastic. Do you know what that means re: amount supplied? A 2% increase in supply is a very big deal when the demand curve is nearly flat.

Re:What is treason? (1)

dbrutus (71639) | more than 4 years ago | (#28038423)

The post war Saudi Arabia adjustments on liberty and modernization provoked by the Iraq war (the Kingdom's answer to the question "if the Iraqis can vote, why can't we") likely also preserves the KSA fields under a geopolitically reasonable regime. We've paid the piper already and are just starting to reap the benefits, if we don't sabotage the current success in a snit (like Congress' refusal to give air support and fund S. Vietnam's munitions needs in 1974-5).

Re:What is treason? (2, Interesting)

DNS-and-BIND (461968) | more than 4 years ago | (#28037687)

But is that really what it boils down to when you prevent more deaths through dissemination of state secrets?

Ok you lost me there. Arming Joseph Stalin with WMD is "preventing" deaths?

Oh, right - I'm responding to a well-known troll account. Sorry, I usually pick up on this sort of thing. My bad.

Re:What is treason? (1)

plover (150551) | more than 4 years ago | (#28037895)

Treason is to act against your own countrymen in the service of another country. But is that really what it boils down to when you prevent more deaths through dissemination of state secrets? Is it really an offense worthy of death to act according to your own morality?

Ignoring the trolling bits that follow and applying your questions to the Rosenberg's case, I'd say that they are still responsible for future deaths that may not have occurred yet. If a rogue state uses a Russian warhead that was developed in part from information stolen by the Rosenbergs, I would think they're at least partly responsible since they were on the critical path of the device's design.

And you can't say that "Russia would have developed The Bomb anyway" because that didn't happen, and we don't know if it would have. We only know what did happen, and that is the Rosenberg's information was vital to the Soviet bomb making effort.

There is also no evidence to suggest that by "sharing" the bomb with the Soviet Union that any deaths were prevented. The United States never killed again with an atomic bomb, and you can't say that's due to the USSR maintaining warhead parity. You might argue that the U.S. would have risen to become the single world-dominating order without an opponent to keep them in check, but it seems that was able to happen (briefly) even with the USSR having nuclear capabilities.

Finally, as for it being a capital crime, I think it should have been life in prison instead. I personally think death is the easier punishment. A long, healthy life in prison with no chance of parole would be worse (it keeps you away from the 72 virgins for that much longer.)

Re:What is treason? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28039277)

I'd say that they are still responsible for future deaths that may not have occurred yet. If a rogue state uses a Russian warhead that was developed in part from information stolen by the Rosenbergs, I would think they're at least partly responsible...

And you can't say that "Russia would have developed The Bomb anyway" because that didn't happen, and we don't know if it would have. We only know what did happen, and that is the Rosenberg's information was vital to the Soviet bomb making effort.

Dude - this was 60 years ago! How long are you going to hold the Rosenbergs responsible for some hypothetical future nuke? In perpetuity?!

Making a nuke is not all that hard, and of course the Russians could have done it without help in far less than 60 years' time.

The United States never killed again with an atomic bomb, and you can't say that's due to the USSR maintaining warhead parity.

Can't I? Just watch me! The US has always has a military doctrine which includes the first-use of nukes, and specific plans for nuking enemy states were made but never put into action. Maybe without a nuclear-armed counter-balance those plans would still have remained just plans, but it's just as speculative as the speculation about the Rosenberg's saving lives.

Re:What is treason? (1)

Lars T. (470328) | more than 4 years ago | (#28051513)

There is also no evidence to suggest that by "sharing" the bomb with the Soviet Union that any deaths were prevented. The United States never killed again with an atomic bomb, and you can't say that's due to the USSR maintaining warhead parity. You might argue that the U.S. would have risen to become the single world-dominating order without an opponent to keep them in check, but it seems that was able to happen (briefly) even with the USSR having nuclear capabilities.

The American Hawks have urged for a nuclear attack on the USSR numerous times, and the only obvious reason why that hasn't happened was the USSR also had nukes. Next you are going to tell us that the A-bombs on Japan were needed to win the war and not a demonstration of power to the USSR.

Re:What is treason? (1)

dbrutus (71639) | more than 4 years ago | (#28038185)

You don't even understand what treason is. Riddle me this, what other country would Aaron Burr have been serving were he convicted in his treason trial?

In case you didn't notice, nobody's going after the NY Times for disseminating state secrets. The only conviction lately seems to have been Scooter Libby's perjury conviction even though it was not Libby but Armitage that first blabbed about Plame.

Burr was in part acquitted because there were no two witnesses available to document his treason in court. We have a very high standard in this country against treason prosecutions (with good reason on the basis of past bad practice in England). You're going down a road that, while perfectly legal, is profoundly unamerican.

The Iraq war, if the present Iraqi republic does not devolve into a tyranny, will have destroyed Israel's claim to be the only Mid East democracy. It already has generated more productive political evolution in Saudi Arabia than 5 previous decades of US constructive engagement, and it has created a profoundly dangerous religious situation for Iran's ugly mullahs who have, in Sistani, an opponent who fundamentally thinks them heretics and who is quietly taking their theological regime apart from the inside.

Was our invasion of Iraq a bad war? Possibly. It does tend to look a bit better if you have a reasonably informed view of the benefits we are currently reaping and which I hope the current administration does not throw away.

Re:What is treason? (2, Informative)

HighOrbit (631451) | more than 4 years ago | (#28038863)

Is it really an offense worthy of death to act according to your own morality?

We are a democracy. We make our decisions collectively and/or have duly elected representatives subject to periodic elections make the decisions. What makes you think your or Rosenberg's morality in matters of public policy is greater than the wisdom of the democracy? Rosenburg had no right to endanger the ENTIRE population of the country by giving atomic secrets to Stalin. No one man has a right to substitute his opinion for that of an election of the people. Rosenberg wasn't engaged in civil disobedience by waving a sign in the park, he enabled a ruthless genocidal dictatorship (Stalin) with the power to destroy the country in a nuclear holocaust.

Jews (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28039047)

The interesting thing about this is that the US rare sentences anyone to death for treason.
Even people who did worse things than the Rosenbergs.
But these people weren't Jews.

But at least you didn't have any Dreyfus.

Re:What is treason? (3, Insightful)

argStyopa (232550) | more than 4 years ago | (#28039547)

Your question is absurd.

If I understand your first point, the superficial one is "if your action demonstratably saves more lives than it cost, is it really wrong?"
As far as the Iraq war, you seem so certain. I'd ask: in what scope? According to varied estimates, there are something like 500,000-1 million Iraqis that probably would have wished Saddam was ousted earlier. This grossly overshadows the (high) estimate of 100,000 Iraqi civilians slain as a result of the current war plus the (trivial, in a military sense) number military deaths.
Of course, the point you're making is about the Rosenbergs. How did them selling secrets to the Soviets "save lives"? One could argue that having the bomb, and feeling secure against any serious military opposition allowed Stalin and subsequent Soviet leaders to embark on their later actions without fear. One could thus logically lay ALL the deaths of the Cold War - all the internal Soviet purges (no real American analogue there, for you moral relativists, sorry) and all the brushfire proxy wars - at the feet of the Rosenbergs. So how many lives did their actions "save" again?

Your second is stated more clearly: "Is it really an offense worthy of death to act according to your own morality?"
I'm staggered by the naivete and simplistic egoism that would fuel this question. More accurately, one might ask what sort of a society one would create if everyone (not just you, remember) were allowed to act according to their own morality? Remember, not everyone has your set of life rules: there's the Austrian guy who imprisoned his own daughter for what, 30 years? meanwhile impregnating her several times. Can he act according to HIS morality? Is that fine? What about the fellow who feels its perfectly justifiable to take the goods of others, because he NEEDS them more to support a really strong drug addiction?
There are LOTS of moral compasses out there, and despite how simple it might look to some, it doesn't take a lot of life experience to see that they don't all point toward the same "north". To suggest that people should just be able to follow their own morality is tantamount to a Hobbesian state of nature "red in tooth and claw" where the strongest get to do what they want simply because they are the strongest or most brutal.

To explain it simply, a society is a collective of people who generally agree on a set of behavioral norms. If you violate those norms, you're subject to the punishment of the society as a whole. American society - a vocal minority aside - has settled on the idea that the worst offenders shall be killed. Like it or not. Fortunately, in modern western culture, one of the norms is that you can say "I don't agree with this set of values" and LEAVE, seeking something better.

The irony (in my view) is that most of the people in the US who complain about how they don't like this or that, tend not to understand that comparatively, they're going to have a hard time finding another society that has the combination of physical conveniences, economic opportunities, and political freedoms, so they end up just staying here and filling the internet with pointless whinging.

Re:What is treason? (1)

Wyatt Earp (1029) | more than 4 years ago | (#28042313)

How was the Second Iraq War/Operation Iraqi Freedom, a bad thing?

Do the Iraqi people now have a freely elected government? Yep. Is Saddam and his sons in power? Nope.

Explain how it was a "almost wholly bad war"?

Re:What is treason? (1)

RockDoctor (15477) | more than 4 years ago | (#28050733)

How was the Second Iraq War/Operation Iraqi Freedom, a bad thing?

Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis are dead, possibly approaching a million depending on how you count the bodies and who you consider a casualty ; a coalition of hostile FOREIGNERS have effective control of the country ; much of the country's infrastructure is in a worse state than it was before GW2 (Gulf War 2 ; perhaps GWB for it's main proponent and "Gulf War B") ; and those fucking foreigners are STILL here, treating Iraqi citizens like sand niggers and raping the natural resources of the country for their own use. Transpose those elements to your own society (as if I couldn't guess which one you live in), and see how you'd feel about the invaders.

Do the Iraqi people now have a freely elected government?

That is an arguable point. It would be at best optimistic to describe the current Iraqi government as "untroubled", or as "wholly accepted". The country is still likely to split into several, and some of the fucking foreigners would find that highly convenient.

Yep. Is Saddam and his sons in power? Nope.

"Are", not "Is" - but yes, you've found the point that puts the "almost" into the next phrase.

Explain how it was a "almost wholly bad war"?

You have put your finger on pretty much the only point that makes it an "almost wholly bad war" instead of a "wholly bad war". Well done. Welcome to "International Relations 1.0.1".

Oh, you were looking from your own society's perspective? Oh, well, in that case, GW2 (GWB) still isn't a wholly good thing. You've probably generated several generations of people who'll be willing (and, of course, able) to attack and kill you, and your children, and your children's children ; you've had significant casualties yourself (so has my country too, but of course none of my friends have been injured because I treat militaristic thugs with the contempt they deserve) ; you may, or may not, have successfully gained access to significant natural resources belonging to other people (this is as-yet undecided ; there's nothing to prevent the oil fields from being nationalised back to their owners) ; you've had a cathartic exercise on beating up someone because of 2001/11/9, even though it was a country unrelated to those events.

What other benefits have you gained? Oh yes, triumph and acclaim. As they don't say in Germany any more, "Seig heil!"

How much did that ad cost? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28036813)

Slashvertisement much?

Re:How much did that ad cost? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28036935)

Eleventy-two Cowboy Neal dollars.

Re:How much did that ad cost? (-1, Offtopic)

pjt33 (739471) | more than 4 years ago | (#28036975)

Who modded that "Troll"? I'm sure the mod guidelines don't say that "Troll" equates to "Fair comment".

This whole article is an advert for timeglider (4, Insightful)

Chrisq (894406) | more than 4 years ago | (#28036917)

(using Timeglider â" a web-based, flash powered, software for creating timelines) ... The use of Timeglider makes understanding the complex nature of the case, and the newly available documentation more manageable."

Yes we get the picture

Re:This whole article is an advert for timeglider (4, Interesting)

idlemachine (732136) | more than 4 years ago | (#28037461)

And it's almost identical to the 3+ year old Simile Timeline project, other than its dependence on Flash over Javascript.

http://www.simile-widgets.org/timeline/ [simile-widgets.org]

The Timeline sample project covers the Kennedy assassination, incidentally.

Mod parent up (0, Offtopic)

Chrisq (894406) | more than 4 years ago | (#28037717)

It is always good to highlight open-source alternatives in an "advertising" story.

Re:Mod parent up (1)

IBBoard (1128019) | more than 4 years ago | (#28037935)

True, especially when said Flash-based version fails to load any of the data with Swfdec on my Fedora 11 Linux box while the JavaScript version is light and responsive and probably a hell of a lot more accessible to boot.

Re:This whole article is an advert for timeglider (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28047123)

You're right, at a time when Javascript is becoming more and more powerful it's an utter failure to go back to Flash.

But Simile seems a bit opaque too. A Javascript-generated, purely presentational div soup. The source data aren't directly accessible -- apparently it parses a CSV file! Wouldn't it be much better to have the data embedded in the page in XML, or even better semantic HTML (a <datagrid>, say) for accessibility, fallback and robots? OK, the downside is reading from the DOM.

Re:This whole article is an advert for timeglider (1)

plover (150551) | more than 4 years ago | (#28037789)

(using Timeglider â" a web-based, flash powered, software for creating timelines) ... The use of Timeglider makes understanding the complex nature of the case, and the newly available documentation more manageable."

Yes we get the picture

Actually, I don't get the picture. It wants me to install some new version of Flash to get the picture, and I don't want to.

Re:This whole article is an advert for timeglider (1)

Will.Woodhull (1038600) | more than 4 years ago | (#28038381)

I got the same message ('you need to install a new version of Flash') when I visited. After telling NoScript to allow wilsoncenter.org, and then timeglider.com, I had access without the need to load another Flash reader.

I don't know what that site is doing to test for Flash on the browser, but I don't like its dishonesty.

Re:This whole article is an advert for timeglider (1)

Curmudgeonlyoldbloke (850482) | more than 4 years ago | (#28046811)

I don't know what that site is doing to test for Flash on the browser, but I don't like its dishonesty.

I'd agree with Bernard Ingham on this one - cockup before conspiracy every time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor [wikipedia.org]

Re:This whole article is an advert for timeglider (1)

Will.Woodhull (1038600) | more than 4 years ago | (#28048227)

Yeah, its probably a matter of incompetence rather than evil intent, but I was trying to give them the benefit of the doubt. You can regard evil behavior as something separate from the person who uses it and then you can sometimes get them to mend their ways.

But there's not much you can do about incompetence, except hope that the person grows out of it. And unless the person is still a teenager, it is not realistic to entertain high hopes about that.

Seems a little strange to be more pessimistic than a curmudgeonlyoldbloke. Maybe this cold is affecting my normally sunny nature.

Re:This whole article is an advert for timeglider (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28046977)

"Dishonesty" is a bit strong. It's just an oversight. Like this classic:

<div id="container"><a href="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer">Get the Flash Player</a> to see this player.</div>
<script type="text/javascript">
    var s1 = new SWFObject("mediaplayer.swf","mediaplayer","300","185","8"); // --snip--
    s1.write("container");
</script>

Another variant of "update your Flash" (doesn't apply here) is when a site is actually checking for an older version of Flash, say Flash 9, and fails to recognize Flash 10. I get that a lot.

Re:This whole article is an advert for timeglider (1)

plover (150551) | more than 4 years ago | (#28049841)

Ah, that did it, thank you. It didn't occur to me that it was displaying that warning as a result of JavaScript. And I have NoScript set up to permit base second level domains, but didn't think to enable timeglider.com.

Re:This whole article is an advert for timeglider (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28038469)

There's a guy in there named "Semen Semenov." January 13, 1966. I'm not even kidding.

Re:This whole article is an advert for timeglider (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28039355)

I know I noticed that too. it has to be a joke, that can't be real

Re:This whole article is an advert for timeglider (1)

Chrisq (894406) | more than 4 years ago | (#28050339)

There's a guy in there named "Semen Semenov." January 13, 1966. I'm not even kidding.

He sounds like a slippery character to me. You know a real slimy type of guy.

Re:This whole article is an advert for timeglider (1)

Lars T. (470328) | more than 4 years ago | (#28053267)

"Semen" is a false transliteration of "CEMËN", a better one would be "Semyon" or maybe "Simon" or "Simeon". "Simon Simonson" - not half as stupid as "Anonymous Coward".

Perfect Example of Bad, Unnecessary Flash (2, Insightful)

deliciousmonster (712224) | more than 4 years ago | (#28037059)

5 years ago this would have still been relegated to a kiosk in a learning center somewhere... but a little investigation into how to write javascript could have made this lighter, more usable, and less frustrating. Unless they were going for a "technology of the times" feel...

Timeglider, eh? (4, Insightful)

dangitman (862676) | more than 4 years ago | (#28037063)

Doesn't seem to work very well. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but it didn't do anything to enhance my experience or make the information easier to digest. If anything, it made it more confusing and less informative.

Re:Timeglider, eh? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28037223)

It's not just you. This timeglider thingie does an excellent job of confusing the user.

The Zoom-out feature is especially silly: When you zoom out to see an overview of the timeline, it hides all but one event, and creates the illusion that almost nothing happened. why it doesn't simply make the data smaller I have no idea.

Great way to get lost in data with no way to find yourself. Well done Timeglider folks!

Yay for... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28037179)

Yay for proprietary tech! Yes, it runs as opaque blob on linux, if you have an x86. But what if not? So much fun people. Open standards are for chumps.

This is a job for... (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28037261)

Consider the following far-more-useful timeline presentations...

http://newstimeline.googlelabs.com/
http://simile.mit.edu/timeline/examples/religions/religions.html
http://www.timerime.com/ ...The shame of it all is that Timeglider fails to beat the above three technologies, and NONE of them use Flash.

Re:This is a job for... (2, Informative)

Captain Cabron (1135811) | more than 4 years ago | (#28037497)

http://www.timerime.com/ ...The shame of it all is that Timeglider fails to beat the above three technologies, and NONE of them use Flash.

eh, then why does that last one say
"You will need Flash Player 8 (or higher) to view this website."

Re:This is a job for... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28037547)

That second one can't be accurate. I got back to 15000 BC before getting bored. I thought Christianity had the world as not existing back then. Also, where is the bit where the dinosaurs and man roamed the earth together?

Re:This is a job for... (2, Insightful)

TimeGlider (1559591) | more than 4 years ago | (#28042951)

Well, I'm biased (being a founder of TimeGlider), but none of these other tools provides a user the ability to quickly, with a nice ui, start making and sharing timelines. Timerime.com IS actually flash-based, Mr. Grumpypants. There's also Dipity.com, which is not Flash-based. Each has its strengths and flaws. We're getting lots of positive feedback today, as well as lots of helpful bug reports : ) Thanks /. !

Re:This is a job for... (1)

plover (150551) | more than 4 years ago | (#28049945)

OK, so you're trolling for feedback. Here's some.

Now that I'm viewing it, it looks pretty straight-forward. I was kind of expecting a more two-dimensional approach, perhaps interconnected lines that would refocus me on a different path or view of the network. I could imagine having the main timeline change focus from primary topic to primary topic. Not that this isn't usable as is, but I was trying to follow my interests, rather than the interests of the article author. And I can see where the "author's viewpoint" attribute might be more important for a schoolteacher.

I've noticed that I can't easily follow a particular trail: for example, you have blue triangles representing Venona decrypts, but clicking the blue triangle is ineffective. I can't just click on a blue triangle and see all the Venona decrypts. (Yes, I later found the "legend" icon after returning to the site a few times.) I can go to the legend and use that as the filter, but that's not intuitive.

I also found that when using the filter to display just Venona related items, I still had to zoom in before I could find them. There's no reason to go to such great lengths to hide information. Alternately, you could put a second slider that shows you more or less detail, rather than strictly more or less time.

If you wanted to get all Appley about this, perhaps a longer click, a double click, or a right click menu on a topic could make that topic glow, or rise in importance.

Oh, and the legend box doesn't have a "close (X)" button, and I suspect others don't as well. Consistency of the gadgets is going to be expected by your users.

Three clicks on a single story item gave me three identical copies of the box to close.

The number on the slider is meaningless. It's not "months" or "years", it's just a random number I don't need or want to see. You have a date range displayed above the slider (1960-1963 or whatever) but it's not clickable. You have a go-to beneath it, which is nice, but I clicked the 1960 hoping to drag the displayed range back to 1949-1963.

I'm sure you don't want to outright steal from Google, but I like their time slider arrangement on their financial pages, like this one: http://www.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ%3AMSFT [google.com] Note how when you get the mouse in the lower pane, the "width" grabbers appear, allowing you to stretch the range to whatever you need? Intuitive, isn't it?

Good luck. I like the overall graphic layout, your tool is very pretty. It's just that it works like a v0.98(beta) and needs a bit more polish in the functional areas.

Advert for timeglider (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28037365)

Rosenburg schmosemburg. Who cares about that stuff. It's timeglider you need to know about.

prostitutes and lobsters = america today (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28037665)

i believe in paying as much taxes as possible so that our leaders can have the finest lobster dinners and the most talented prostitutes money can buy.

now you're talking

Good...easy...free software? (1)

Raindog (13847) | more than 4 years ago | (#28038051)

I am a teacher (former geek) and I have struggling to find good timelining software for use by both me and my students...my needs are:

A. Must be free
B. Easy to add events
C. Exportable to a file
D. Multiple user support would be nice

Simile Timeline looks nice but is certainly not easy, and probably requires more skill to implement than I am capable of. Plus, I don't have a server to run it on. Timeglider are Timerime look fine as easy to use software, but are ultimately commercial services and I suspect will ultimatly cause problems. Anyone have any suggestions? Non-web based freeware is also fine, but it needs to be free so I can have students use it as well. That would also pretty much mandate Windows as well. An suggestions would be dandy. Thanks!

Re:Good...easy...free software? (1)

TimeGlider (1559591) | more than 4 years ago | (#28048995)

Hey @Raindog, as long as we're in business, we'll keep a robust free version of TimeGlider available â"Âand this is with classrooms in mind. A "Plus" layer (currently free) will cost roughly $60 per year, so a teacher could then manage timeline collaborations, export to CSV, etc. We've had great success with classrooms collaborating. Yes, we'll pursue "enterprise" (commercial) clients, but will also make sure it's easy & free (and free of ads) for educational use. I'd be happy to help you set up some group timelines, and I'd also be happy to field any feedback you have. Michael Richardson co-founder, lead developer TimeGlider michael (at) timeglider (dot) com

My cousin Vinny's Sex Change ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28060335)

ALL those pictures look like my Cousin Vinny, before and after the sew change !?!?!?!

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