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Internet Giving Rise To "Citizen Spies"

Soulskill posted more than 5 years ago | from the bond-dot-jamesbond-dot-com dept.

The Internet 93

reporter writes "According to a startling report by the Wall Street Journal, the Internet has empowered ordinary people to be part-time intelligence officers, uncovering secrets like military facilities and prison camps across the landscape of North Korea. The report states, '[Curtis] Melvin is at the center of a dozen or so citizen snoops who have spent the past two years filling in the blanks on the map of one of the world's most secretive countries. Seeking clues in photos, news reports and eyewitness accounts, they affix labels to North Korean structures and landscapes captured by Google Earth, an online service that stitches satellite pictures into a virtual globe. The result is an annotated North Korea of rocket-launch sites, prison camps and elite palaces on white-sand beaches. "It's democratized intelligence," says Mr. Melvin. More than 35,000 people have downloaded Mr. Melvin's file, North Korea Uncovered. It has grown to include thousands of tags in categories such as "nuclear issues" (alleged reactors, missile storage), dams (more than 1,200 countrywide) and restaurants (47). Its Wikipedia approach to spying shows how Soviet-style secrecy is facing a new challenge from the Internet's power to unite a disparate community of busybodies.'"

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In Soviet Internet (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28074583)

Citizens spy on you?


Re:In Soviet Internet (1)

asdfx (446164) | more than 5 years ago | (#28074629)

does it not sound problematic that if we can do this, so can they...?

Re:In Soviet Internet (2, Insightful)

gnick (1211984) | more than 5 years ago | (#28074661)

So what? Security through obscurity has pretty well been written off. We used to identify Russian special-nuclear-material sites by looking for the buildings with 3-layer fences and sniper towers. Our sites are identifiable the same way. Solution? 3-layer fences, sniper towers, and undisclosed underground protection. You can no longer hide your facilities, you just protect them and keep anything super-sensitive under a closed roof in a building with no open windows.

Re:In Soviet Internet (1)

Philip K Dickhead (906971) | more than 5 years ago | (#28075129)

Of course, when these are located in the UK or US?

You are a paranoid tin-foil hatter.

Re:In Soviet Internet (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28076215)

> You are a paranoid tin-foil hatter.

You say that like its a bad thing....

Re:In Soviet Internet (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28078783)

Go to facility in the UK, check out the big double fences and the armed guards at the gates. The regular security patrols, the patrol dogs. The level of security usually depends on the current alert level, posted on a sign near the gate as you enter.

Then find a site with something that needs keeping genuinely secure, and behind the above "friendly" outer fence, significantly further into the base, you will also find another secure fence that looks even less friendly.

These areas are normally quite a way inside a normal security base, away from prying eyes, and giving some warning if there is a security issue at the main gate or fences.

Neither are surprising though - installations do need to be guarded.

Re:In Soviet Internet (4, Interesting)

Whiternoise (1408981) | more than 5 years ago | (#28075187)

Or, like most top secret installations these days, you dig and avoid the problem entirely. Facilities like NORAD, for instance (and you think if anything has ever existed at Area 51 it's above ground?).

The UK (and no doubt the US and similar) government employs researchers with the sole task of poring over satellite pictures to determine the capacity of power plants, populations of regions and in general "what things are and what they can do". They also have far more high resolution satellite images than Google is allowed to produce.

We've been doing this kind of thing for years and still are. The only difference now is that the public can give it a go.

Reminds me of the famous incident concerning one of the first Nuclear tests when a university professor used dimensional analysis to calculate what the detonation payload was (a classified figure at the time) based on a photo that was published in the papers (that was the last time the US Military put scales on their photos :P).

Re:In Soviet Internet (1)

fishbowl (7759) | more than 5 years ago | (#28075409)

>So what? Security through obscurity has pretty well been written off.

Just when I started to believe that, I had three different system administrators tell me to put SSH on a nonstandard port in response to dictionary attacks. Of course that buys you a few seconds maybe, but the bots are smart enough to nmap and find sshd running wherever you put it. My plan was to (hardware) firewall the host so that it only allowed specific source addresses and to disable passwords entirely. One of those admins, a service provider, was too lazy to use key authentication and whined about it. I wasn't impressed.

Re:In Soviet Internet (-1, Offtopic)

Philip K Dickhead (906971) | more than 5 years ago | (#28075979) [] Thu May 21, 2009 at 08:22:20 PM PDT

May 21, 2009

At Abu Ghraib, a few sadistic prison guards abused inmates in violation of American law, military regulation, and simple decency. For the harm they did to Iraqi prisoners and to America's cause, they deserved and received Army justice.

And it takes a deeply unfair cast of mind to equate the disgraces of Abu Ghraib with the lawful, skillful, and entirely honorable work of CIA personnel trained to deal with a few malevolent men.
Dick Cheney []

Setting the Conditions
August 31 to September 9, 2003
Major General Geoffrey Miller, commander of the prison at Guantanamo Bay, leads a survey team to plan intelligence, interrogation, and detention operations in Iraq.

September 5, 2003
A JPRA (SERE [] ) training team arrives in Iraq. Their visit includes Abu Ghraib.

September 6, 2003
Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld tours Abu Ghraib.

September 9, 2003
General Miller delivers his recommendations. Guantanamo Bay should be used as a baseline. Interrogation in Iraq should be consolidated in one place. MPs should work to set the conditions for interrogation.

Dedicate and train a detention guard force subordinate to the JIDC Commander that sets the conditions for the successful interrogation and exploitation of internees/detainees. This action is now in progress.
General Geoffrey Miller []

I had conversations with MG Miller on a couple of occasions.... Specifically, I recall he discussed the implementation of dedicated MP support to MI.
Captain Carolyn Wood []

They [MPs] would be the bad guys and MI would be the good guy to gather information.
Colonel Jerry Phillabaum []


October 1, 2003
The 372nd MP Company, a reserve unit, moves to Abu Ghraib. It gets two weeks on-the-job training. Nudity, sexual humiliation, stress positions, sleep deprivation, and sensory deprivation are all standard procedures when the 372nd arrives.

This is also the deadline date for centralizing and consolidating interrogation and detention at Abu Ghraib. Most other locations in Iraq are now intended as 72-hour holding sites.

October 3 or 4, 2003
3:00 or 4:00 p.m.
Military police transport a prisoner to the hard site.

One of them whispered in my ear, "today I am going to fuck you", and he said this in Arabic. Whoever was with me experienced the same thing. That's what the American soldiers did.... When they took me to the cell, the translator Abu Hamid came with an American soldier and his rank was sergeant (I believe). And he called told me "faggot" because I was wearing the woman's underwear, and my answer was "no". Then he told me "why are you wearing this underwear", then I told them "because you make me wear it."
Kasim Hilas [] (#151108)

October 5
Three Guantanamo Tiger Teams arrive for duty at Abu Ghraib. Their task is to help set up and develop the interrogation center.

October 7, 2003
A training team from the military intelligence school at Fort Huachuca arrives at Abu Ghraib. Their course was originally developed for reservists at Guantanamo Bay.

Military intelligence soldiers with a service history at Bagram conduct an interrogation.

She was escorted downstairs to another cell where she was shown a naked male detainee and told the same would happen to her if she did not cooperate. She was then taken back to her cell, forced to kneel and raise her arms while one of the Soldiers (SOLDIER31, A/519 MI BN) removed her shirt. She began to cry, and her shirt was given back as the Soldier cursed at her and said they would be back each night.
Fay Report []

October 8, 2003
Military police transport a prisoner to the hard site.

He told me to take a shower and he said he would come inside and rape me and I was very scared. Then they put the sand bag over my head and took me to cell #5. And for the next five days I didn't sleep because they use to come to my cell, asking me to stand up for hours and hours.
Ameen al-Sheikh [] (#151362)

About October 8, 2003
A trainer from Fort Huachuca speaks off-hours with contract interrogator Steve Stefanowicz. The trainer recommends that Stefanowitz talk to military police about the possibilities for the use of dogs, and that photos of harsh treatment be taken to show and scare detainees.

I used some extremely harsh words to describe the level of fear the prisoner should feel. I told him that this fear, the guards, this place all come together to create a harsh environment and that this sets the stage for the interrogation. I told him that he should be the first friendly face the prisoner sees, and the prisoner will want to talk to relieve his fear.
Sergeant Walters []

Taking Command

October 15, 2003
The 372nd MP Company takes command of Abu Ghraib.

Captain Christopher Brinson, a grade above the usual platoon leader, is made Officer in Charge of the hard site, a segregation ward holding a mix of juveniles, women, prisoners with mental problems, punishment cases, Military Intelligence holds, and OGA "ghost" detainees.

October 18, 2003
9:00 p.m.

And the first punishment was taking me to room #1, and they put handcuffs on my hand and they cuffed me high for 7 or 8 hours. And that caused a rupture to my right hand and I had a cut that was bleeding and had pus coming from it.
Amjed Waleed [] (#151365)

October 20, 2003
12:29 a.m.
Between rounds of waking prisoners up, MP Sabrina Harman writes home.

Most have been so scared they piss on themselves.
Specialist Sabrina Harman []

1:35 a.m.

1:53 a.m.

October 21, 2003
Prisoner #151365 (three photos, above) is interrogated.

Prisoner #150425 is punished on discovery of a shank made from a broken toothbrush.

The guard came and cuffed me to the cell door for two hours, after that they took me to a closed room and more than five guards poured cold water on me, and forced me to put my head in someone's urine that was already in the room. After that they beat me with a broom and stepped on my head with their feet while it was still in the urine. They pressed my ass with a broom and spit on it.
Abd Alwhab Youss [] (#150425)

October 23, 2003
The International Committee of the Red Cross ends a three-day visit.
10:50 p.m.

Acts of humiliation ... while being laughed at by guards, including female guards...
International Committee of the Red Cross []

I get to laugh at them and throw corn at them.
Specialist Sabrina Harman []

Point at him and laugh at him while he was in the shower naked.
Specialist Megan Ambuhl []

Pretending to drag him on a leash type thing.
Private Lynndie England []

...were used by the military intelligence in a systematic way to gain confessions and extract information.
International Committee of the Red Cross []

October 25, 2003
Around midnight:

I saw the translator Abu Hamid fucking a kid. his age be would be about 15-18 years. The kid was hurting very bad and they covered all the doors with sheets.
Kasim Hilas [] (#151108)

Approx. noon:

Patient was raped in hardcell, needs check up
For any injury to Rectum area
15 yo. male. Speaks reluctantly, fearfully.
Through interpreter, states he was threatened by 2 other
inmates with death unless he complied.
No DNA evidence or swabs
done per instruction of CPT [Redacted] of MPs.

Detainee Medical Records []


8:16 p.m.

He [General Sanchez] said they are like dogs and if you allow them to believe at any point that they are more than a dog then you've lost control of them.
General Janis Karpinski [] (June 2004)

After 10:00 p.m.

They brought three prisoners completely naked and they tied them together with cuffs and they stuck one to another. I saw the American soldier hitting them with a football and they were taking pictures. I saw Grainer hitting one of the prisoners right in the face very hard when he refused to take off his underwear and I heard them begging for help.
Kasim Hilas [] (#151108)

One of the MI soldiers pointed to the naked detainees and said "These are the people who raped a little boy".... Then the MI soldiers ordered all three detainees to low crawl on the floor. When the detainees attempted to arch up, two of the MI soldiers put pressure in the middle of their backs and yelled at them to get down.
Sergeant Ken Davis []

11:06 p.m.

Are you gay? Do you like what is happening to you? Are you all gays? These were some of the questions or things that I told them.
Adel Nakhla [] , a.k.a. Abu Hamid

October 26, 2003
About midnight:

Before Ramadan, Grainer covered all the rooms with bed sheets. Then I heard screams coming from Room #1, at that time I was in Room #50 and it's right below me so I looked into the room. I saw A---- in Room #1, who was naked and Grainer was putting the phosphoric light up his ass. A----- was screaming for help. There was another tall white man who was with Grainer, he was helping him. There was also a white female soldier, short, she was taking pictures.
Mustafa Jassim Mustafa [] (#150542)

They put the sheets on the door again. Grainer and his helper they cuffed one prisoner in Room #1, named A---- he was Iraqi citizen. They tied him to the bed and they were inserted the phosphoric light in his ass and he was yelling for God's help. ... That was Ramadan, around twelve midnight approximately when I saw them putting the stick in his ass. The female soldier was taking pictures.
Kasim Hilas [] (#151108)

Then they broke the glowing finger and spread it on me until I was glowing and they were laughing. They took me to the room and they signaled me to get on to the floor. And one of the police he put a part of his stick that he always carries inside my ass and I felt it going inside me about 2 centimeters, approximately. And I started screaming, and he pulled it out and he washed it with water inside the room.
Amjed Waleed [] (#151365)

Ramadan starts.


MP chain of command, MI chain of command, and criminal investigation are informed of the previous night's events.

Joyner said he would tell his NCOIC about it. He left and came back later and told me it had been taken care of.
Specialist Hannah Schlegel []

They told me they knew about it and I should not have been told about this. I went ahead and reported it to CID just in case they had not heard. They said they knew bout it.
Sergeant [E. DeLaRosa?] [] , Fusion Analysis Cell NCOIC

Coming back from the missions, my lieutenant was out back of our living facility. And I said, sir, I need to talk to you.
Sergeant Ken Davis []

Roughly midnight:

And they repeated the same thing the second day of Ramadan.
Kasim Hilas [] (#151108)

October 27, 2003

Short hundreds of meals every feeding, bugs and dirt are found in the meals several times a week, and for the past two days prisoners have been vomitting after they eat.
Major David Dinenna []

October 29, 2003
Amjed Waleed (see Oct. 26 [] ) is interrogated.

November 2, 2003
Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez visits Abu Ghraib and speaks with interrogators.

8:54 p.m.

November 4, 2003
After 1:00 a.m.
A convoy of thirty to thirty-five Navy Seals in six or seven Humvees, plus two OGA Chevy Suburbans, arrives at Manadel al-Jamadi's three-story apartment building near Baghdad. Polish commandos serve as security.

The team blows down the door of the wrong apartment. The male occupant is detained.

As an explosive charge is being placed on the correct door, someone inside opens it. The suspect is tackled. A brief and brutal fight ensues. Al-Jamadi's stove falls on Al-Jamadi. He is subdued.

Al-Jamadi and his neighbor are thrown into a Humvee. Al-Jamadi is driven to a pre-established location, where he is identified by a waiting informant.

Al-Jamadi is taken to FOB St. Michael, where he is beaten by turns.

About 3:00 a.m:
Al-Jamadi is taken to Camp Jenny Pozzi at Baghdad International Airport. He is in-processed in the "volleyball pit" and interrogated in the "romper room" by the CIA and Navy Seals. Blood seeps from the sandbag over his head, and he occasionally slumps unconscious in his chair.

After an interrogation, Al-Jamadi's neighbor is released.

About 5:00 a.m.
CIA agents Mark Swanner and "Clint C." bring al-Jamadi to Abu Ghraib. He is wearing a shirt but no pants.

About 6:00 a.m.
The CIA has MPs shackle al-Jamadi with his arms behind his back, hanging from a bar in a window of the shower room in the hard site. As he hangs from his arms, he has six broken ribs, a broken nose, a contusion and fluid accumulation in his left lung, and a plastic sandbag over his head.

About 6:45 a.m.
The CIA calls for MPs to shackle al-Jamadi higher. Three MPs reposition him, but he immediately collapses. His hood is removed and he is checked for signs of life.

About 6:55 a.m.
Al-Jamadi is unshackled and lowered to the floor.

Blood came gushing out of his nose and mouth, as if a faucet had been turned on.
Sergeant Jeffrey Frost []

Shortly after:
Several MP Sergeants, Captain Brinson, two medics, several OGAs, an Iraqi doctor, MI Lieutenant Colonel Jordan, an army doctor, MI Colonel Pappas, MP Captain Reese, and a Major arrive. The CIA calls Washington, and directs that Al-Jamadi's body be held until the next day.

Captain Brinson has al-Jamadi's body placed in a bag and packed with ice.

4:00 p.m.
The afternoon shift change meeting is held.

He [Captain Brinson] said there was a prisoner who had died in the shower, and he died of a heart attack.
Specialist Sabrina Harman []

11:04 p.m.

He was to be kept awake for three days and pretty much harassed.
Corporal Charles Graner []

To say, hey if you fall off you're going to be electrocuted, I mean, that would keep anybody awake. So it was part of the sleep plan.
Specialist Sabrina Harman []

And he took the hood off and he was describing some of the poses he wanted me to do, and the I was tired and I fell down.
Abdou Hussain Saad Faleh [] (#18170)

November 5, 2003
1:21 a.m.

About 3:30 a.m.
Two prisoners escape through the window of their cell.

About 10:00 a.m
Al-Jamadi's body is placed on a gurney and an I.V. is put in his arm. The body is taken from the prison and put in an ambulance or a taxi.

Unknown time:

And then they stripped me naked and they took me under the water and then he made me crawl the hallway until I was bleeding from my chest to my knees and my hands. And after that he put me back into the cell and an hour later took me out from the cell the second time to the shower room under cold water and then he made me get up on a box, naked, and he hit me on my manhood.
Asad Hanfosh [] (#152529)

November 7, 2003
10:15 p.m.
Seven prisoners are transported to the hard site.

One day in Ramadan, I don't know the exact date, we were involved in a fight in Compound 2, so they transferred us to the hardsite. As soon as we arrived, they put sandbags over our heads and they kept beating us and called us bad names. After they removed the sandbags they stripped us naked as a newborn baby. Then they ordered us to hold our penises and stroke it and this was only during the night. They started to take photographs as if it was a porn movie. And they treated us like animals not humans. They kept doing this for a long time. No one showed us mercy. Nothing but cursing and beating.
Nori al-Yassiri [] (#7787)

11:16 p.m.

I don't know if he hit every single one, but pretty close because he hit a lot of people. During the time he was hitting the detainees, he posed for a photograph in which it looked like he was going to hit the detainee. After the photo was taken, he continued to hit the detainees.
Specialist Matt Wisdom []

11:44 p.m.

They brought my friends, Haidar, Ahmed, Nouri, Ahzem, Hashiem, Mustafa, and I, and they put us 2 on the bottom, 2 on top of them, and 2 on top of those and one on top. They took pictures of us and we were naked.
Hussein Al-Zayiadi [] (#19446)

November 8, 2003
12:14 a.m.

Sometime before dawn:

After the end of the beating, they took us to our separate cells and they opened the water in the cell, and they told us to to lie face down in the water and we stayed like that until the morning, in the water, naked, without clothes.
Hussein Al-Zayiadi [] (#19446)

They took us to our cells, took the mattresses out and dropped water on the floor and they made us sleep on our stomachs on the floor with the bags on our head and they took pictures of everything.
Hiadar Abed Miktub-Aboodi [] (#13077)

Before 8:22 p.m.
Six prisoners escape from Ganci Compound 8.

November 9, 2003

CPL Graner showed still photographs of what happened to his MP platoon Chain of Command and requested to be removed from the prison. He was told to keep following military intelligence instructions by his Platoon Leader.
Specialist Megan Ambuhl []

MP Sabrina Harman writes home.

We might be under investigation. I’m not sure, there’s talk about it. Yes, they do beat the prisoners up and I’ve written this to you before.
Specialist Sabrina Harman []

About November 13, 2003
MI interrogator Luciana Spencer and analyst Armin Cruz write up an interrogation plan.

Detainee should be treated harshly because friendly treatment has not been productive and because COL Pappas wants fast resolution.
Interrogator Notes [] (Fay incidents #44)

Roughly 2:00 a.m.

When they finished interrogating me, the female interrogator left. And then Grainer and another man, who looked like Grainer but doesn't have glasses, and has a thin mustache, and he was young and tall, came into the room. They threw pepper on my face and the beating started. This went on for a half hour. And then he started beating me with the chair until the chair was broken. After that they started choking me. At that time I thought I was going to die, but it's a miracle I lived. And then they started beating me again. They concentrated on beating me in my heart until they got tired from beating me. They took a little break and then they started kicking me very hard with their feet until I passed out.
Walid Mohanded Juma [] (#152307)

November 14, 2003
2:40 a.m.
A Tiger Team finishes up a two hour interrogation of a detainee.

Interrogator []

Analyst []

MPs transport six bound and hooded "Iraqi Generals" from Camp Vigilant to the hard site.

5:40 p.m.
[] []

About 6:00 p.m.
Prison officials are summoned after receiving reports there was "a blood smear on a wall."

Lipinski said when he arrived with Capt. Christopher Brinson to investigate, they saw a prisoner sitting against the wall with his face bloodied. He said Graner first told prison officials the detainee had "stumbled on a pile of rubble."
Newspaper report of Graner's trial []

After 8:00 p.m.
Captain Brinson downgrades MI treatment instructions for the new arrivals.

November 16, 2003
Graner receives a written counseling statement.

CPL Graner, you are doing a fine job in Tier I of the BCF. As the NCOIC of the "MI Hold" area, you have received many accolades from the MI units here...

There was an incident on 14 NOV 03 involving a security detainee whose actions in your words required you to use force to regain control of the situation. The detainee received abrasions and cuts on his face from the incident. Let me state first and foremost, you have an inherent right to self-defense.... Unless other evidence presents itself, I accept your version of events.
Captain Christopher Brinson []

November 19, 2003
Command of Abu Ghraib is transferred from Military Police to Military Intelligence.

The FRAGO generated tension between MI and the MPs. The MP chain of command pulled the MP detail dedicated to MI for transportation of detainees between their holding area and the interrogation booths.
Captain Carolyn Wood []

November 24, 2003
1:00 p.m.
A disturbance breaks out at Camp Ganci. Guards shoot four detainees, killing three. Nine U.S. soldiers are injured.

About 6:00 p.m
A prisoner, perhaps Amjed [] Waleed [] , has informed MPs that another detainee has a handgun smuggled into his cell. MI Lieutenant Colonel Steve Jordan and 4 MPs form an ad-hoc search team: prison command and the internal reaction force are not informed.

A firefire ensues. Sergeant William Cathcart is shot in the chest but protected by his kevlar vest. The detainee is shot with nonlethal rounds, then lethal shotgun rounds to his legs.


About 10:00 p.m.
All five dog teams and the internal reaction force arrive at the hard site.

The area was in disarray with mattresses, clothes, and trash thrown all over the place. There was one individual that appeared to be in charge, but I don't know who it was. He was about five foot, six inches to five foot, seven inches tall, medium build, medium to light complexion, with blond hair in a "high and tight" style. I heard people referring to him as "captain".
Petty Officer Bill Kimbro []

This CPT had come upstairs and pulled out an individual nicknamed [Redacted] and held him by the throat screaming at him. He was then taken into another cell where he was questioned and screamed at some more. This detainee was an informant and this was staged to make it appear that he was not assisting us with identifying the detainee that had the hand grenade. After interrogating the detainee the CPT went back downstairs and pulled out another detainee.
Sergeant Darrell Plude []

On the top tear, I had a view of the Captain throwing the [second, downstairs] inmate against the wall. The inmate fell to the ground. The Captain began kicking the inmate in the mid section yelling at the inmate.
Sergeant Greg Spiker []

One soldier was standing next to the left side of the prisoner's head with the barrell of his rifle pressed against the prisoner's head. I observed the other soldier kneeling next to the right side of the prisoner at approximately waist level. I observed this soldier begin to strike the prisoner in the small of the back with a closed fist. The soldier struck the prisoner approximately ten times. The soldier then stood up and kicked the prisoner in the right hip and right side approximately three times.
Specialist John Polak []

The detainee was screaming while this was going on. The CPT stated "You like hurting my soldiers". The kicks were full force into the detainee.
Sergeant Greg Spiker []

Very shortly later, in a separate event:

I saw the dog during this strike the detainee. The detainee was bound and could not move, and the handler would allow the K-9 to approach within inches his face, and one time the dog bit the detainee's arm. When I saw the detainee later it appeared the detainee was bitten multiple times.
Sergeant Greg Spiker []

About the same time, in another incident:
Navy dog handler Kimbro is called to a cell. Yelling from inside the cell agitates his dog. The dog lunges inside the cell, and snips at Titan contractor Etaf Mheisen. Kimbro leaves the hard site.

November 25, 2003
Ramadan ends.

November 30, 2003
Military intelligence draws up an interrogation plan for Juwad Ali Khalf (#151363).

If the detainee has not broken yet, interrogators will move into the segregation phase of the approach. Interrogators will coordinate with Military Police guards in the segregation area prior to initiation of this phase. For the segregation phase of the approach the MPs will put an empty sandbag onto the prisoners head before moving him out of Vigilant B. This measure will be for force protection purposes and transporting the detainee to the segregation area by HMMWV. MPs will be transporting the detainee with the interrogators present. During transportation, the Fear up Harsh approach will be continued, highlighting the Allah factor. Interrogators will take all necessary precautions in conjunction with the MPs to ensure detainee's safety during transport. Upon arrival at site, MP guards will take him into custody. MP working dogs will be present and barking during this phase.
Colonel Tom Pappas []

Early December, 2003
An Iraqi Policeman is interrogated by CACI contractor Daniel Johnson, with Titan interpreter Etaf Mheisen.

I was standing outside the door. Now the way it worked was he [Johnson] would be questioning the guy and if he didn't answer, Johnson would say he was going to have me come in the room. That was my key to come into the room.
Sergeant Chip Frederick []

December 10, 2003
MPs write up an SOP for the use of dogs.

CPT Hampton prepared it, I proofread it, and LTC Phillabaum signed it.
Major David Dinenna []

December 12, 2003
10:47 p.m.

And I also saw in Room #5 they brought the dogs. Grainer brought the dogs and they bit him in the right and left leg. He was from Iran and they started beating him up in the main hallway of the prison.
Walid Juma [] (#152307)

Tonight ended up being the same ole same ole.... Inmate tries to break out of cell i find out i punish i bring in dogs i get assaulted dog bites prisoner.
Corporal Charles Graner []

I'd rather not discuss the incident.
Sergeant Santos Cardona []


December 13, 2003
10:20 a.m.
A fight breaks out at Ganci compound 8. Nonlethal rounds are fired to disperse it.

11:20 a.m.
A fight breaks out at Ganci compound 2. Nonlethal rounds are fired to disperse it.

4:42 p.m.
A fight breaks out at Ganci compound 3. Nonlethal rounds are fired to disperse it.

8:30 p.m.
Saddam Hussein is captured near Tikrit.

December 14, 2003
The St. Petersburg Times profiles the 800th MP brigade commander.

Living conditions now are better in prison than at home.
General Janis Karpinski []

December 19, 2003
Captain Brinson finishes his tour and is released from active duty. He relinquishes command of the hard site.

December 30, 2003

I was told by his interrogator, Big Steve, that he was al-Qaida.... He said, "Any chance you get, put the dogs on."
Sergeant Chip Frederick []

January 4 to 8, 2004
The International Committee of the Red Cross visits Abu Ghraib. Colonel Pappas and Colonel Warren deny access to eight detainees. A High Value Detainee is being held in a lightless latrineless 6' by 3' cell with a sign on the door: "The Gollum".

The translator stood at the end of the corridor and shouted to us: "Look all of you. The Red Cross will come to you today and if you say anything more than what is allowed then you will see a very, very dark day today and tomorrow will be darker and so on and so on."
Saddam al-Rawi [] (#200144)

January 13, 2004
1:30 p.m.
Khaled al-Maqtari is captured in "Operation Market Sweep" in Fallujah and helicoptered to Abu Ghraib. He will spend nine days at Abu Ghraib, three months in a dark prison in Afghanistan, more than two years at a "black site" prison, perhaps in Europe, and some eight months in a jail in Yemen.

Evening or night:
Al-Maqtari has his clothes cut off with scissors, and is hooded and shackled. He is beaten in turns and is swung in circles to disorient him so he will run into walls. He is placed in front of an air conditioner and doused with water. When he can no longer hold aloft a case of bottled water, he is beaten with a stick. When he is near to passing out, smelling salts and vapor rub are used to revive him.

He is then suspended upside down on a chain from the ceiling, and raised and lowered onto the water crate with a pulley.


About 10;15 p.m.
Specialist Joseph Darby leaves two CDs of abuse photographs in the room of a military investigator.

When I learned CPL GRAINER was going to go back and work at the Hard Site, which is where the photos showing the prisoners being abused occurred. I knew I had to do something.
Specialist Joseph Darby []


January 16, 2004
Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez orders a criminal investigation into reports of abuse at the prison.

The base commander orders amnesty boxes placed around the Abu Ghraib military base.

personnel will neither create nor possess photographs, videotapes, digital videos, CD/DVDs, computer files/folders, movies or any other medium containing images of any criminal or security detainee....

Personnel will have the opportunity to place all prohibited items or paraphernalia into the Amnesty Box without penalty or legal consequence.
Colonel Tom Pappas []

January 31, 2004
Major General Antonio Taguba is appointed to conduct an inquiry of MPs.

February 2, 2004
General Taguba visits Abu Ghraib.

About February 2 to February 20, 2004
Investigators cannot locate Lieutenant Colonel Steve Jordan for interview.

April 28, 2004
60 Minutes II [] airs a story and photos about the abuse.

May 3, 2004
The New Yorker [] publishes photos of the abuse.

June 6, 2004

A review of all the computer media submitted to this office revealed a total of 1,325 images of suspected detainee abuse, 93 video files of suspected detainee abuse, 660 images of adult pornography, 546 images of suspected dead Iraqi detainees, 29 images of soldiers in simulated sexual acts, 20 images of a soldier with a Swastika drawn between his eyes, 37 images of Military Working dogs being used in abuse of detainees and 125 images of questionable acts.
Special Agent James Seigmund []

June 9, 2004
Captain Brinson offers to make a statement to investigators in return for immunity. His offer is declined.

July 17, 2004
Investigators are looking into an International Committee of the Red Cross report of a prisoner being handcuffed for eight hours while held at the hard site.

It is true that on more than one occasion detainee was shackled to the floor and blindfolded during interrogations.
Section lead, force protection Tiger Teams []

Read this carefully.... If the detainee is the one we have in custody, interrogate him for lying.
Multinational Coalition Investigations Operations Officer []

August 2, 2004
CID investigators are looking into allegations of abuse by military intelligence soldiers on Sept. 20, 2003.

Information obtained by MG [Fay] office could not be released by order of the Secretary of Defense.
Summary of Investigative Activity []

January 2006
Captain Brinson receives a reprimand.

January 10, 2006
Major General Geoffrey Miller invokes his right against self-incrimination in court-martial proceedings against two MP dog handlers.

August 2007
Lieutenant Colonel Steve Jordan is the only commissioned officer court martialed for involvement in the abuse. He receives a reprimand and a fine. The reprimand is cleared from his record in January 2008.

May 21, 2009
Charles Graner serves ten years sentence [] at Fort Levenworth.

Christopher Brinson walks the halls of Congress [] : he is legislative director for Representative Mike Rogers of Alabama.

Re:In Soviet Internet (1)

ImaLamer (260199) | more than 5 years ago | (#28079949)

They don't have agents in Google faking the maps (or launching the spy satellites).

Or do they?

Re:In Soviet Internet (1)

Jurily (900488) | more than 5 years ago | (#28074675)

Citizens spy on you?

Ah, just like old times. Since there's absolutely no way to stop the phenomenon, why don't we balance things out? Let the citizens spy on the government as well.

Re:In Soviet Internet (2, Funny)

Psyborgue (699890) | more than 5 years ago | (#28074755)

Bah. The government has nothing to hide. There is plenty of oversight. Trust them!

Oh Boy (5, Funny)

cbs4385 (929248) | more than 5 years ago | (#28074611)

Does this mean I get to act out my favorite moments from 24 on that creepily suspicious neighbor of mine, the one who speaks that foreigner lingo in with his so call family? I can't wait. Now where'd I put my home waterboarding kit...

Re:Oh Boy (1)

Hurricane78 (562437) | more than 5 years ago | (#28074919)

the one who speaks that foreigner lingo in with his so call family?

Depends on it being more or less foreign than your "lingo". :P

yeahhh, how that'd go down for you... (1)

CAIMLAS (41445) | more than 5 years ago | (#28079959)

Setting: front lawn. Neighbor is watering his lawn and CBS is coming home from work.

Neighbor: Hello CBS, good evening!
*cbs jumps over fence and grabs Neighbor, dragging him to the closed garage door, and and slams him against it
cbs: Where are the weapons?! WHERE ARE THE WEAPONS?!
Neighbor (flabbergasted): weapons? What are you talking about?
*neighbor starts to fall down the garage door as Bauer^Wcbs pulls him back up and slams him against it, pulling a USP and pressing it into Neighbor's nose
CBS: The weapons, god damn it, the WEAPONS! It's over, my partner found your collaborators. They were here twenty minutes ago!
Neighbor: Twenty minutes? There were girl scouts here selling us some Ginger Snaps about 20 minutes ago.
CBS: Yes, the cookies! Terrorists are using them to disperse dangerous nerve
Neighbor: They're just cookies, you crazy fuck!
* Neighbor kicks cbs in the nuts takes the gun off the ground, and uses his cell phone to call 911

Not _SPIES_, intel analysts (5, Insightful)

redelm (54142) | more than 5 years ago | (#28074619)

There's a _huge_ difference between people on the ground who go look at things and talk to people, and people who analyse the photos people on the ground or in the sky/space have taken.

For one thing, analysts aren't in hostile territory and subject to arrest.

Re:Not _SPIES_, intel analysts (2, Interesting)

nametaken (610866) | more than 5 years ago | (#28074651)

Yeah, my initial thought was, aren't there LOTS of people who work for our intelligence agencies doing this with much better imagery and expertise, augmented by feet on the ground?

Re:Not _SPIES_, intel analysts (0)

RiotingPacifist (1228016) | more than 5 years ago | (#28075269)

This sounds like fealgood uselessness to me, surely the real spies will just be able to use use an automated system to analyze the boundary of camps. I suspect nobody has had the heart to tell the guy that his efforts are pretty redundant or worse counter productive.

Re:Not _SPIES_, intel analysts (5, Interesting)

ickleberry (864871) | more than 5 years ago | (#28074735)

True. You're not a real spy unless you build a UAV and fly it over North Korea, or a MAV if you have the balls (or a death wish).

It would be a fun project, launch it from Russia or South Korea - not China because NK & China are good communist brothers. You can have it connect to the interwebs using Thuraya, Inmarsat and maybe use an Orbcomm transceiver as backup. I suppose ideally you'd want a dirigible or something that can stay in the air for extended periods without producing much heat that missiles would pick up on. Once in the country's interior you could lower its altitude and get some nice detailed shots. You could control it directly by radio but this makes you far too easy to trace - internet connectivity allows you to GTFO once the thing is launched.

The problem would be getting something to power the thing - microjets pump out too much heat, solar power alone probably won't give you the required amount of oomph to fly the thing. You could go unpowered, launch when there is a good breeze blowing into North Korea and deflate once it reaches another country. There was a slashdot story about a bunch of students who made something similar but I don't think they ever flew it over North Korea

AI glider? (1)

mangu (126918) | more than 5 years ago | (#28074805)

You could go unpowered, launch when there is a good breeze blowing into North Korea and deflate once it reaches another country

Or you could make a glider with AI or remote control. Perhaps an infrared camera on a glider would help it find thermal columns? Gliders piloted by humans have flown over 3000 km, I wonder how much a remote control glider could do.

Re:Not _SPIES_, intel analysts (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28074817)

> You're not a real spy unless you build a UAV and fly it over North Korea, or a MAV if you have the balls (or a death wish).

Still not a spy. The intelligence community has lots of members with different roles. Spies are the ones who go in and talk to the people. Unless you shake the hand of the enemy (or whatever their culture does), you're not a spy.

Re:Not _SPIES_, intel analysts (2, Funny)

SEWilco (27983) | more than 5 years ago | (#28076383)

Still not a spy. The intelligence community has lots of members with different roles. Spies are the ones who go in and talk to the people. Unless you shake the hand of the enemy (or whatever their culture does), you're not a spy.

Does it count if the enemy recoils in fear after feeling your metallic handshake?

Re:Not _SPIES_, intel analysts (0, Offtopic)

Hurricane78 (562437) | more than 5 years ago | (#28074951)

I think it would be more interesting to let it fly over the USA. ^^
I'll start it from the UK, because they are good brothers too.

Man, I bet you could unite 99% of the people of NK, Iran, and the USA, and they would work well together.
Why not just dump the government of all those states on the moon, and let them annihilate each other?

Re:Not _SPIES_, intel analysts (0, Flamebait)

antifoidulus (807088) | more than 5 years ago | (#28075037)

Like the governments of Europe did to organize the greatest mass slaughter of humankind in history? You self-righteous Europeans crack me up, you people are by FAR the biggest mass-murderers in history and yet you pretend to be all high and mighty and condemn other nations who don't do killing nearly as efficient as Europe.

Re:Not _SPIES_, intel analysts (1)

j. andrew rogers (774820) | more than 5 years ago | (#28075781)

I suppose ideally you'd want a dirigible or something that can stay in the air for extended periods without producing much heat that missiles would pick up on.

Modern missiles use imaging-based terminal guidance, not heat seeking. The imagers often work into the infrared spectrum, but that is primarily to give better all-weather performance. If they can pick up your dirigible on radar, they can put a missile in your area that can find you.

Re:Not _SPIES_, intel analysts (2, Informative)

Omnifarious (11933) | more than 5 years ago | (#28076309)

No, you're not a real spy until you actually become a part of the North Korean military in order to report on what it's up to and what kind of orders you're getting.

Our intelligence agencies have lost their edge precisely because they don't want to do that kind of thing. But that's what real spies do and where useful intelligence comes from.

And citizens could get involved in this if there were people who lived in North Korea wanted to do something horribly risky because they wanted to make their government look bad. I actually hope the Internet does spawn this kind of spying.

Re:Not _SPIES_, intel analysts (1)

CAIMLAS (41445) | more than 5 years ago | (#28079973)

A helium balloon with control valves and maybe directional sails, or some such thing would do the job nicely. IE, a 'weather balloon'. Depending on air currents you could launch it quite a far ways off.

You too can be James Bond (1)

Drakkenmensch (1255800) | more than 5 years ago | (#28074627)

The miniturization and degree of complexity in today's modern electronics, combined with price drops from affordable generic knock-offs of premium items makes it now possible to equip yourself like James Bond after a Q-Branch sequence with little more than a shoestring budget and a Best Buy online account.

Re:You too can be James Bond (2, Insightful)

CRCulver (715279) | more than 5 years ago | (#28074649)

I would think this newfounding spying power would be mainly limited to Google Earth. Walking around in an oppressive regime with ultra-miniaturized electronics can often draw great suspicion.

James Bond? More like Stefan Urquelle (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28074909)

Steve Urkel

Re:James Bond? More like Stefan Urquelle (1)

Drakkenmensch (1255800) | more than 5 years ago | (#28074937)

I'm pretty sure that Best Buy offers the genetic transmutation thingamajigger that turned Steve Urkel into Stephane Urquelle in their recommended purchases section. Either that, or surf eBay for the used original.

best definition yet (4, Insightful)

owlnation (858981) | more than 5 years ago | (#28074751)

Its Wikipedia approach to spying shows how Soviet-style secrecy is facing a new challenge from the Internet's power to unite a disparate community of busybodies

Wikipedia: a disparate community of busybodies. Yep, pretty much the best definition I've heard.

But lets hope the quality of these citizen intelligence officers is vastly superior to the average wikipedian. Using wikipedia-based information might get you a fail mark, a libel suit, minor injuries, or a variety of other personal problems. However, using poor intelligence information might get us all nuked, or start a major war. (citation: see Iran, Weapons of Mass destruction, intelligence failure thereof)

Re:best definition yet (1)

jabithew (1340853) | more than 5 years ago | (#28075403)

I think Iraq rather than Iran.

We still don't really know what Iran are up to. Or is that what you meant?

Re:best definition yet (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28078669)

Spoken like a true moron who knows nothing about bomb making. If you can enrich the uranium for civilian reactor use you can easily make weapons-grade uranium. If you can make weapons-grade uranium it's easy to make a bomb.

The question is not what Iran is up to. The question is what can Iran do. Or more specifically, do you want Iran to have a bomb?

I don't know enough about politics to tell you the answer to that. I image Iran with a bomb wouldn't change much. Perhaps the US and Israel would stop talking about using force against Iran.

Re:best definition yet (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28095247)

I agree. You dont know enough about politics.

Re:best definition yet (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28084653)

"We still don't really know what Iran are up to."

They're acquiring nuclear material. What is good about that?

If you are a liberal, at least hold Iran up to the same standard you hold your own country to--no more nuclear plants, no more nuclear material, no real government funded nuclear research (particularly on closed cycle), no risk of nuclear proliferation. You are largely against nuclear energy because of the risks, hold Iran to the same. It's always amazing to me the number of time I've heard the "EU is doing it" argument, but folks largely ignore what the EU isn't doing too. Thankfully, the EU ineptitude and complacency on this means the issue is closer thome to them; they didn't learn from the Cold War.

If you are a conservative, you know damn well nuclear refining for power plants means the same technology can be applied directly to nuclear weapon refining. They may not be building nuclear weapons today, but they have that immediate potential to do so oday, no matter what our government nitwits want to say. People continue to say they don't have the capability or capacity right now; this doesn't matter. Nuclear proliferation isn't simply about building an actual weapon. It's about garnering the research, education, and learning about the process, which Iran has shown it can do and thus can proliferate the knowledge and expertise right now.

The fact is, the US doesn't have the will or the brainpower to tackle the Iranian issue. The Iranian government and religious leadership knows this. The US government and nation doesn't. It's why Iran IS a nuclear power today; anyone that says or thinks "well, maybe..." is just naive.

Re:best definition yet (1)

jabithew (1340853) | more than 5 years ago | (#28088449)

Way to stereotype me into two extreme ends of the US political spectrum when I'm not even a Yank. I am a liberal (classical/European), I also believe in the necessity of nuclear power. There is nothing contradictory about this at all. Note that France is something like 80% nuclear powered, hardly your flag-bearing conservative nation (though not liberal in the sense that I am). So I don't believe there's anything wrong with Iran wanting to build nuke power plants. I can also understand their worries about sovereignty, given the way the world has treated Iran in the past. And the fact that you think Iran is a major threat to Europe at the moment is touching but at least demonstrates that you must be American, with that kind of grasp of geography.

Finally, you may think that Europe is inept and complaisant, but that's rich coming from a power which still won't even talk to Iran out of a prolonged ideological hissy-fit. We even came damn close to a solution until your Bush regime blocked it.

Incidentally, if you think there's still time to prevent the Iranians getting the brainpower, education and the research together then you obviously don't know how many have trained in top European and American universities.

For a better idea of Iran than you'll get from the Fox channel I suggest the Economist, the BBC's excellent series on Iran and the West of the same name and, god forbid, some Iranians.

Re:best definition yet (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28075725)

might get you a fail mark, a libel suit, minor injuries, or a variety of other personal problems.

Mr. Melvin should be starting to watch out for the infamous spiky umbrella-man. Those radiating restaurant meals are also a killer. Poisonous chocolate milkshakes are not so much of a concern, however. It's not of their style. Too American.

Re:best definition yet (1)

Inverted Intellect (950622) | more than 5 years ago | (#28076909)

The problem with Wikipedia isn't badly edited content. It's poorly informed readers.

A Wikipedia article is only as good as the sources it cites, and anyone intending to do anything important according to information in a Wikipedia article should be aware of that.

further proof that the open source model works (1)

n0tquitesane (1533455) | more than 5 years ago | (#28074753)

With a million eyeballs, no restaurant can remain hidden

Re:further proof that the open source model works (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28075701)

So, you're suggesting that NK has thousands of nuclear sites, but less than fifty places to eat?

Re:further proof that the open source model works (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28076261)

Why is that so hard to believe?

Re:further proof that the open source model works (1)

n0tquitesane (1533455) | more than 5 years ago | (#28079205)

Have you noticed they are starving there?

Some books on the subject (5, Informative)

hughperkins (705005) | more than 5 years ago | (#28074767)

Some books on the subject:

Re:Some books on the subject (1)

MoonBuggy (611105) | more than 5 years ago | (#28075105)

The Light of Other Days, by Arthur C. Clarke and Stephen Baxter [] would make a good addition to that list. It's a worthwhile read; the summary on Wikipedia really doesn't do it justice, IMO (and I'm too lazy to change it right now).

Re:Some books on the subject (1)

Eil (82413) | more than 5 years ago | (#28078183)

I see what you did there.

Slashdot spreading fear mongering. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28074781)

Slashdot spreading fear mongering.

And what of other "open" countries? (5, Insightful)

MartinSchou (1360093) | more than 5 years ago | (#28074795)

I wonder what kind of trouble you'd get in if you made a similarly detailed map of all military installations (secret or otherwise) in the US or the UK.

Considering the oproar over showing where schools, churches and Cheney's residence are, I wouldn't be surprised if it was more difficult to get it done for the US than for North Korea ...

Re:And what of other "open" countries? (4, Informative)

chill (34294) | more than 5 years ago | (#28074985)

None? At least in the U.S.

Head on over to Google Maps and start looking up things like Bangor, WA, which is a major Trident Nuclear Sub base. Feel free to explore both the street map and the satellite view to compare.,+wa&sll=44.662793,-68.720169&sspn=0.363355,0.892639&ie=UTF8&ll=47.715537,-122.739601&spn=0.085929,0.22316&t=h&z=13 []

Notice what Microsoft's mapping gathered from there? Oopsie! []

Maybe browse a website dedicated to secret U.S. military bases? []

The U.S. and the rest of the world, especially the major powers, have dealt with satellite overviews since the 1960s. Anything real interesting is underground and out of view.

Re:And what of other "open" countries? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28075053)

The U.S. and the rest of the world, especially the major powers, have dealt with satellite overviews since the 1960s. Anything real interesting is underground and out of view.

This is true for North Korea as well.

Re:And what of other "open" countries? (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28075267)

Head on over to Google Maps and start looking up things like Bangor, WA, which is a major Trident Nuclear Sub base. Feel free to explore both the street map and the satellite view to compare.

Having spent a lot of time at Bangor, I can say with confidence that being able to see the base, and knowing in any kind of detail what goes on there are two very different things.

The U.S. and the rest of the world, especially the major powers, have dealt with satellite overviews since the 1960s. Anything real interesting is underground and out of view.

Nah. The real interesting stuff takes place in banal looking buildings that don't appear any different from the ones around them. The most interesting building at Bangor looks like a warehouse - one of several in the complex.

Re:And what of other "open" countries? (1)

PPH (736903) | more than 5 years ago | (#28077889)

Nah. The real interesting stuff takes place in banal looking buildings that don't appear any different from the ones around them. The most interesting building at Bangor looks like a warehouse - one of several in the complex.

But the same thing holds true for other countries as well. And in a closed country like N. Korea, it'll be much more difficult to separate sensitive facilities from the others. Everything is 'sensitive'. Nobody can get in on the ground to take a look around easily.

Re:And what of other "open" countries? (4, Informative)

MartinSchou (1360093) | more than 5 years ago | (#28075641)

Granted, but it's not like we've never heard or seen Bangor naval base before. Or Area 51. Or any of the other major military installations.

But what exactly is being hidden here?

A ~25 x 3 mile black strip in Canada and Alaska ... []

Re:And what of other "open" countries? (1)

TheLink (130905) | more than 5 years ago | (#28075677)

Could be just a glitch when the camera responsible was gathering stuff.

Re:And what of other "open" countries? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28076659)

Nah. Palin just didn't want anyone to see satellite pix of her hunting moose with grenades.

Re:And what of other "open" countries? (4, Informative)

chill (34294) | more than 5 years ago | (#28075791)

Nothing. It was a camera glitch. Notice, because Alaska isn't high priority, that all levels of zoom are from the same photo set? Watch the clouds, they never move.

Then check other sources like Microsoft's Virtual Earth and see what is "hidden". []

Re:And what of other "open" countries? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28079875)

Now that made my day: Microsoft just told me to install Firefox (well, IE or Firefox). I use Iceweasel (Debian's rebranded Firefox).

Re:And what of other "open" countries? (1)

ilyag (572316) | more than 5 years ago | (#28076501)

Try zooming in - you see a swamp. So, if something is hidden there,
it must have been very temporary...

Re:And what of other "open" countries? (1)

DerekLyons (302214) | more than 5 years ago | (#28078829)

Nothing. Here [] and here [] are two different areas in the black rectangle at highers levels of zoom, plainly showing the terrain.
Nothing to see, move along, just another of Google Map's many glitches.

Re:And what of other "open" countries? (1)

cffrost (885375) | more than 5 years ago | (#28080375)

That's the Exxon petroleum ditch, created during the cleanup of the Valdez oil spill.

Re:And what of other "open" countries? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28080637)

That's where we stash our weed man!

Re:And what of other "open" countries? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28077687)

Nope. Easier.

And remember, whet you now need is a vast army of busybodies prepared to pore over maps continually. Which China has in abundance....

Re:And what of other "open" countries? (1)

ps2os2 (1216366) | more than 5 years ago | (#28091339)

I have some friends who are street car "nuts". They like to go to different cities and take pictures of street cars. They were informed while they were taking pictures of street cars (I think it was in New England) that they were violating a federal law by taking the pictures. The policeman was *SERIOUS*. They do this for their own enjoyment and they give talks at various "clubs" on street cars.
They are *NOT* foreign agents or out to give aid to the "enemy" (whoever that is). This whole idea of the US government intervening in purely information building effort to write a book on street cars is way over the top. The Bush people(and their new laws) have done so much damage to the national mindset and liberties has got to stop.

Cool but mildly creepy. (1)

Phizzle (1109923) | more than 5 years ago | (#28074803)

On one side it is cool how proliferation of information is creating transparency in areas previously shrouded with secrecy, on the other side it is somewhat creepy to see how it is becoming increasingly more acceptable to out things without the involved party's consent. Are we evolving into info junkies, who under the guise of "The Public Has The Right To Know" are simply feeding our addiction to sticking our noses into everyone's business? I admit that I am addicted to information (duh I am on /.), but I do not like to think of myself as a Peeping Tom. Sorry, its early in the morning and the caffeine is slowly working through my system, I must ponder this some more....

Keep this story in mind (4, Insightful)

timeOday (582209) | more than 5 years ago | (#28074853)

Keep this story in mind the next time you hear about "China" hacking DoD computers - we don't know whether or not the govt. is behind hacks from a given country, assuming the attacks even originate from there, it could just be bored geeks in their mom's basements.

And keep this story in mind the next time an "American" (they always turn out to be dual citizens) is arrested for spying in Iran or China - we don't know whether a US citizen has been doing some un-sanctioned spying on another country. Even if they're not on the CIA payroll, it could be business interests, it could be family ties, it could be a grudge, and after reading this story I realize it could just be flat out idle curiosity?

Re:Keep this story in mind (1)

BobTheLawyer (692026) | more than 5 years ago | (#28075507)

Or they could just be an innocent citizen arrested by the secret police of a totalitarian state that denies freedom to its own people?

Just a thought.

Re:Keep this story in mind (0)

rhizome (115711) | more than 5 years ago | (#28075929)

Or they could just be an innocent citizen arrested by the secret police of a totalitarian state that denies freedom to its own people?

I love it when ideologues generalize on "freedom," especially in the morning. It smells like bloggery.

Take it from me, kid: you remember all those stories about how bad the Soviet Union was, like in the 70s? They were exaggerated.

Roxana Saberi possessed secret military documents. (1)

reporter (666905) | more than 5 years ago | (#28076487)

timeOday wrote, "And keep this story in mind the next time an "American" (they always turn out to be dual citizens) is arrested for spying in Iran or China".

timeOday is referring to Roxana Saberi. The Iranian government rarely acts appropriately, but in her case, it was 100% in the right in sentencing her to imprisonment.

The American media understandably presented her as an innocent victim. American journalists simply did not know that Roxana Saberi had taken -- without authorization -- top-secret military documents authored and owned by the Iranian government [] . Those documents assessed the Iraq War.

If a dual national had done the same thing in the USA, then Washington would have sent her to prison.

In the case of Roxana Saberi, Tehran was right to act. Washington was wrong to complain.

The American people were wrong to support Saberi. She made no attempt to rescind her Iranian citizenship while simultaneously holding American citizenship. Indeed, she used her Iranian citizenship to her advantage to get a job with the Iranian government.

Americans should not waste resources -- time, money, or lives -- in supporting a person who willfully exhibits divided loyalties.

Re:Keep this story in mind (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28076773)

Paraphrasing memories of the best way I've heard it explained: different types of hacker do different things in different ways. The idle curiosity hacker, the corporate espionage hacker, the security consultant, the military, the malware-and-botnet master... not a whole lot of crossover in their choices of target and their activities once they get into a system. To hazard a guess here, an idle hacker is going to explore any interesting system he can, which will be a mix of military, corporate, and educational systems; and he's gonna do stuff like poke around and grab the occasional file. Whereas a military spy is going to be focusing on building in backdoors, evading detection, and getting as much data as possible - and will be trying to siphon off that data in as innocuous a way as possible, which will probably mean lots of accounts grabbing small pieces at a time during times that no one would notice, deleting or editing logs; possibly, after viewing some data, uploading and overwriting it with slightly altered stuff either as outright sabotage or to probe for how the digital and human elements detect and react to it (or how they fail to).

And on the other hand, of course, China has kind of dug itself into a hole that is very hard to argue its way out of; there are too many levels of contradiction between all the things they've said. Authoritarian, with tight network control and high penalties for crime; a military clamoring for aggressive advances in tech and internet warfare; decades of anti-western PR; but we insist, these attacks coming from our military IP blocks to your military IP blocks aren't China! No, they're evil foreign hackers! Really!

The death of newspapers (2, Interesting)

MillionthMonkey (240664) | more than 5 years ago | (#28075007)

Every time I hear about the death of newspapers, I wonder how the efforts of a small number of full time reporters would match up to the lackadaisical efforts of a million maternal basement dwellers with Internet connections.

Re:The death of newspapers (1)

Lord Lode (1290856) | more than 5 years ago | (#28075461)

I don't think there'd be that much difference, it might even be better. Reporters are after sensation, basement dwellers might actually be more realistic.

A missed chance to effectively use the tubes ... (1)

foobsr (693224) | more than 5 years ago | (#28075301)

was probably operation TIPS [] (Terrorism Information and Prevention System), which would have given each and every US-citizen the chance to effectively spy on his neighbours. But sadly, only a few are lucky now, quote (loc. cit.): "On June 30, 2008, the Denver Post reported that 181 individuals, including police officers, paramedics, firefighters, utility workers, and railroad employees had been trained as Terrorism Liaison Officers to report suspicious information which could be signs of terrorist activity. The article also stated that TLOs were already active in six other states and the District of Columbia". </sarcasm>


North Korea (-1, Flamebait)

br00tus (528477) | more than 5 years ago | (#28075371)

I was talking about North Korea with someone and he said every time the American news discusses North Korea, they show a North Korean military parade with pictures of tanks rolling by. Sure enough, the next time North Korea was on the news, they showed a picture of tanks rolling by. Nowadays, they sometimes show missiles being fired instead.

Of course, that North Korean media is totalitarian and always shows an image of the USA as about to attack them is how the US media portrays the North Korean media. What is not mentioned is how our media does the exact same thing. For the average uneducated American, North Korea equals rolling tanks and missiles, if Pavlov and B.F. Skinner were right.

Of course the North Korean media has much more of a reason to portray the US as being a military aggressor. There are tens of thousands of US soldiers in South Korea. Until 1994, a US general was the commander of the Combined Force, in other words, an American was in charge of South Korea's military. The border is the most heavily militarized border in the world. Why does America have tens of thousands of troops in this country, then say they are part of an axis of evil, then invading one of the "axis of evil" countries. This after playing chicken with and killing a Chinese pilot in early 2001, something most Americans have forgotten about already. And so on.

And of course people forget that North Korea is whose economy was booming in the 1950s, 1960s into the 1970s, when South Korea finally surpassed the North. The North was also a more free place than the south which had its military run by the USA, and was under a series of dictators who stamped out the nationalist movement as well as any labor unions and the like, often engaging in massacres like at Gwangju. North Korea's military on the other hand was under the Koreans. Having to keep up it defenses against the American foreigners are what eventually killed the North Koreans economy. That, and a series of other misfortunes for North Korea led things to what is admittedly a sad state. I can say one thing for North Korea though - it does not have military bases with white foreigner soldiers wandering around raping [] their women.

Re:North Korea (0, Troll)

Reservoir Penguin (611789) | more than 5 years ago | (#28075603)

I agree, how do we know pictures of "concentration camps" weren't planted there by the CIA? And I trust NK "defectors" as much as I trusted Iraqi defectors and their tales of Saddam's advanced WMD programs back in 2003.

Re:North Korea (1)

DavidShor (928926) | more than 5 years ago | (#28092615)

Several thousand people a year have visited North Korea. It really is a terrible place, don't delusion yourself.

Re:North Korea (1)

gyrogeerloose (849181) | more than 5 years ago | (#28075645)

every time the American news discusses North Korea, they show a North Korean military parade with pictures of tanks rolling by

I get the point you're trying to make here and more or less agree with it. But I think the fact that news outlets in the west always show footage of military parades when discussing North Korea has less to do with conspiracy than it does with that country being so tightly controlled that there really isn't anything else for them to show.

It's case of not attributing to malice that with can adequately explained by laziness (on the part of western TV networks).

Re:North Korea (1)

dbIII (701233) | more than 5 years ago | (#28075833)

The worst case I saw of this was on 9/11 when a leading US News network (not sure which) showed file footage of celebrating Palestinian soccer fans and said they were celebrating the attack. There is often malice or an agenda in the choice of footage to show with an emotive story.
However - it's true as said above there's not really much film of things happening in North Korea anyway. Not even the Chinese just over the border know much about what is going on apart from what they hear from refugees - and that even includes the Chinese with relatives in North Korea which they may not hear from in decades.

Re:North Korea (1)

gyrogeerloose (849181) | more than 5 years ago | (#28076427)

The worst case I saw of this was on 9/11 when a leading US News network (not sure which) showed file footage of celebrating Palestinian soccer fans and said they were celebrating the attack.

I agree, that was a pretty egregious case of manipulation on the part of the network involved (Fox, probably, but I could be wrong). But I don't think the same situation exists with television news organizations re: the PRK. That's due more to a lack of creativity than bias.

Re:North Korea (1)

dbIII (701233) | more than 5 years ago | (#28075767)

I suggest asking someone from the north of China (which is where the North Korean refugees run to) about this and you'll get a bit more understanding of the situation. North Korea is an incredibly nasty place to live unless you are one of the elite. While things in the south have not been ideal the north is an entirely different world of horror.

Friend, you have no idea (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28075769)

Let me tell you, totalitarian Soviet-like propaganda that North Koreans (and, formerly, Soviets) were experiencing has nothing to do with "reasons" or "reasoning".

This is how it works: in school or at work, day after day, they make you repeat what the newspapers say. Originality is bad for you, thinking is bad for you, reasoning is bad for you. Parroting it back with every show of enthusiasm is good for you.

Life in Korea and (in the Soviet Union) is very militarized, and the rolling tanks are a big deal. Parades are sacred (and you are made to show up to watch and cheer whether you want it or not).

Life of an ordinary person in North Korea (and in USSR) is somewhere between slavery and serfdom, and is permeated with fear. Let me tell you, this kind of life sucks.

The US troops in South Korea was the only thing that prevented the same regime from being established all over Korea. Now South Koreans can work on their computers, cars, etc., rather than dying of hunger by the millions (look up the recent hunger in NK). Alas, not every nation taken over by Communists was so lucky. Recall that in Cuba they only just allowed people to own computers and cell phones (if they can afford them). But try finding some Cubans online.

That said, Western media is indeed quite stupid. It drools over tyrants and is easily impressed by staged performances, including parades. What they should have been showing is the abject poverty and fear in which ordinary people live. But you can't show that in 2 seconds, you have to live there to see it.

Re:Friend, you have no idea (1)

vandan (151516) | more than 5 years ago | (#28080195)

This is how it works: in school or at work, day after day, they make you repeat what the newspapers say. Originality is bad for you, thinking is bad for you, reasoning is bad for you. Parroting it back with every show of enthusiasm is good for you.

I hate to break it to you, but this applies to us as much as it does them. The difference is that in the West, we've perfected it to such an extent that our population are almost completely unaware.

Re:North Korea (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28076575)

"That, and a series of other misfortunes for North Korea led things to what is admittedly a sad state."

What in the !?$!$# are you talking about? North Korea is largely responsible for its own sad state. A large number of its citizens starving every few years is not because of outside influence, but largely because of many years of internal mismanagement. The mismanagement includes building lavish palace complexes like this [] , complete with an entire valley fenced off and a private railway station. Long and expensive railway lines have been built through the mountains not to deliver produce, but to get the elite to their mountain palaces. There are dozens of these things. It's pathetic.

The simple reality is, the elite of North Korea live in splendor while the average person is little better than a serf, and the only reason is because the leaders there *like* it that way. That problem has nothing to do with foreigners.

And that's what's really obvious if you pour over the Google Earth imagery. It's remote sensing, but you can see right away that the country has been built to screw over the common people while keeping the elite in luxury. It's not socialism. It's not communism. It's like some 20th or 21st-century version of Feudalism.

I'm not sure... (2, Insightful)

Nakoruru (199332) | more than 5 years ago | (#28075479)

I'm not sure that I want the same pool of people that believe in faces on Mars, and other hoaxes, interpreting photos of North Korea.

Wikileaks (3, Interesting)

HalAtWork (926717) | more than 5 years ago | (#28075615)

Wikileaks has also played an important role in revealing secrets. In addition, Wikipedia also helps people disseminate information that is direct and to the point, in plain language, with references and with links to articles containing more specific information. It's an invaluable tool for knowledge. I hope it never disappears, and I am glad that they offer burnt-to-DVD versions of articles.

Plus, every time I visit a web site for information, I save it, because I never know if that information will disappear or change. When I go back, I save another copy so I can compare, and also so I can retain information in previous copies should I need to reference it.

FEMA Camps (1)

droidsURlooking4 (1543007) | more than 5 years ago | (#28076371)

Uh, ever tried searching google earth for FEMA Camps in the USA?

When everyone is a suspected spy (1)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 5 years ago | (#28077215)

You might as well be in Nazi Germany, or old school Russia.

Time to put that tinfoil on the windows too.

Citizen spying == Neighborhood Watch? (1)

macraig (621737) | more than 5 years ago | (#28077805)

We had this before the Internet: it's called Neighborhood Watch programs. My extension of it, and a solution to the fears of emergence of Big Brother with the advent of cameras on every street corner, is to wire those cameras up to either the global 'Net or a local WAN and let anyone monitor those cameras and report suspicious activity. The police would merely act on reports from citizens; police would not monitor the cameras directly except perhaps with the express request and consent of a citizen. If the camera system is "open sourced" and available to anyone, then it's not Big Brother, it's democracy in action.

35,000 idiots, eh? (1)

vandan (151516) | more than 5 years ago | (#28080173)

Got nothing better to do? Of all the threats to the world order, I think North Korea sits pretty close to the bottom. How about we uncover some of the hundreds of secret & illegal US & Israeli prisons, nuclear sites, etc? Sure, I know the answer already ... because these are 35,000 idiots we're talking about, and they all believe that North Korea is out to get them, and that the US and Israel are bastions of peace and democracy. Of course, in our secret prisons, no-one is tortured to death. And our secret nuclear bases would never actually launch an attack on another country ... in fact these are better thought of as peace bases, and are only secret because our enemies want to attack our peace!

Re:35,000 idiots, eh? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28099903)

If they're secret, how do you know so much about them?

In Singapore... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28086567)

This has been already happening and apparently our government has turn it to their flavour. We have a website STOMP [] which is setup by our only local newspapers publishing outlet, SPH (Singapore Press Holdings aka. Singapore Propaganda Holdings) which is directly in control by the PAP (People Action Party) government. The website encourages anybody to take pictures of anything from 'ungracious' behaviour to some Youtube-wanna stuff and post as articles to discriminate people. Some of them actually become our daily headline news (our daily news is filled with gossip and rubbish). A truly sad police/nanny state...

RE: Pres. Obana -- Indefinite Detention -- Enemy (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28090625)

Obama's recent tussell with "Dick" Chaney give sivers up the spine.

"Indefinite Detention" has not been defined by Pres. Barak Obama -- yet lends to many actions by the State, to render Citizens as Slaves of the State.

Is "Indefinite Detention" imposed for:

1. Thought Crimes

2. Crimes of Conscientiousness

3. Crimes of "Original Sin".

Much is yet to be said from Barak Obama.

In his defense, Prudence would argue to incarcirate all citizens of the United States of America, into a new Federal Prision System, one that begins and ends at the physical boarders -- a truly wounderfull Gulag, given by his presumptions that -- all are guilty -- and must a all costs be stopped, otherwise killed and renderd useless to the aims of the Holy Executive and Chief. A new Religion thus born, a Religion of Hate, upon the peoples of the United States of America, from their own President.

If it is the wanting of this President to make all peoples of the United States of America, the Enemies of the State, then the President Barak Obama has made himself the Enemy of the World.

So unfortunate.

Sleep well Barak.

Apologists (1)

thedudethedude (1462877) | more than 5 years ago | (#28095279)

I never thought a story like this would uncover so many N. Korea apologists. I love the busybody remark -- no bias there. "Nothing to see, move along."
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