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Palm Pre To Sync Seamlessly With iTunes

ScuttleMonkey posted more than 4 years ago | from the middle-finger-included dept.

Communications 178

Wired is reporting that Palm's new handheld device, the Pre, will be able to sync automagically with Apple's iTunes. Thanks to a team of ex-Apple engineers the Pre will sync everything but iPhone applications and some of the older Fairplay DRM music. "It does it by faking out iTunes, making the jukebox software think that it is connected to a real iPod. Hook it up and you'll be given three options: USB mass storage device, charging only or iTunes sync. This is a ballsy move from Palm, and we totally love it: a big fat middle finger at Apple. Apple will, we are sure, be readying its legal attack dogs as I write, and don't be at all surprised if an iTunes update pops up around June 6th. This fight just got a lot more interesting."

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178 comments

Palm? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28140255)

They still exist?

Re:Palm? (3, Informative)

bobmarleypeople (1077639) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140519)

As much as I'd like to mark you as flamebait, you actually have a point. Until the Palm Pre was announced, I was under the impression that Palm (as a company) had gone under. When looking to replace my faithful HP iPAQ h5550 PDA (god that was an awesome PDA) I asked around in the electronics shops about a palm device, the majority thought they didn't exist any more. So it's nice to see they've been working on something over the past few years (unlike the Duke Nukem Forever guys).

Re:Palm? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28141343)

really? is your head so far up your ass that you never saw a Treo or a Centro?

Re:Palm? (3, Insightful)

v1 (525388) | more than 4 years ago | (#28141379)

They were on the verge because PalmOS is crap and Palm Desktop is steaming crap, and they both look rosey compared to palm's technical support.

I just threw away my T2 and got a touch, and love it. From repeated bad experiences of my own and almost everyone I know with palm, I hope apple reams them good, give them a twist for me while you're at it.

Too little, too late, palm.

PALM PRE OMG (1, Insightful)

bonch (38532) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140739)

I'm so damn tired of reading about the Palm Pre. It's everywhere, and it's annoying.

Re:PALM PRE OMG (5, Funny)

PopeRatzo (965947) | more than 4 years ago | (#28141285)

I'm so damn tired of reading about the Palm Pre. It's everywhere, and it's annoying.

Unlike the iPhone, which is hardly ever mentioned in the media...

This should be interesting (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28140271)

While I enjoy the big fat middle finger to Apple as much as the next guy, I firmly expect Apple to give the big fat legal cock in the ass back to Palm.

And when it comes to a winner, the middle finger loses to the fat cock every time.

Re:This should be interesting (0, Offtopic)

larry bagina (561269) | more than 4 years ago | (#28141179)

What about the middle finder in the cock?

Why is this story displayed red? (-1, Offtopic)

SlothDead (1251206) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140275)

Does a red story mean that there are no comments?

Re:Why is this story displayed red? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28141817)

Yes, hot and fresh, right off the grill.

Sue Those Monopolistic Apple Bastards! (2, Interesting)

eldavojohn (898314) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140277)

Plug the Pre into a PC and you're offered the option of using the device as a USB drive, charging it or beginning a "media sync." Interesting, using media sync the Pre does indeed sync with iTunes, though it's hamstrung by Apple's DRM protected songs. Can't imagine Apple's too happy about that. Presumably, Apple legal is already drafting a letter. Pre appears to make iTunes think it's an iPod.

How is Apple going to feel about that, asks Walt. Rubinstein dodges a bit noting that there are a variety of ways of getting music out of iTunes. Walt pushes back pointing out that this is the first non-Apple device that is recognized as an Apple device by a Mac. Rubinstein dodges again. Seems he's pretty obviously using his Apple knowledge here. McNamee jumps in. Apple is "practically a monopolist," he says, adding that people should be able to use music that they purchase in what ever way they see fit.

Such a letter would be the stupidest move Apple has made in a long time. I already view them as monopolistic bastards with their iTunes website & iTunes application & iTunes DRM & iPod/iPhone lock-in scheme. I am sick and tired of explaining to my friends and family how to burn a DRM'd song from their computer to a CD and then rip that CD to an MP3 and then put that MP3 on their player of choice.

I am begging Palm to sue the hell out of Apple if Apple comes after them. Palm should sue Apple to release an API to interface with iTunes music store and utilize iTunes DRM (I'm not against DRM if the artist wants it just so long as anyone can use it in their applications) and also an API for hardware manufacturers to plug into iTunes! Am I the only person on earth that sees the necessity in this? Am I the only person on earth that sees this as a direct affront to a free market system?! How is this any different from Microsoft packaging IE with Windows?! In my book it's worse since it transcends so many different industries--not just software!

Apple's evilest move would be to just watch this happen and throw a wrench into the works every time they do an update to iTunes. Let Palm spend hours trying to figure it out so the Pre still interfaces with it. That way the consumers will experience bumps, be more prone to buying iPhones and if anyone sues them for monopolistic practices they can throw their hands up in defense and say, "What!? The Pre works fine with iTunes! I don't know why you can't figure it out!"

I'm so sick of this whole mess that I personally buy CDs or Amazon MP3s, rip the CDs with CDex to a format of my choice and then move said songs to my MP3 player of choice. Hell, I can play my music on my DVD player if I put it on the correct media.

Re:Sue Those Monopolistic Apple Bastards! (4, Insightful)

XxtraLarGe (551297) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140339)

Am I the only person on earth that sees this as a direct affront to a free market system?!

I do not think that term means what you think it means: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market [wikipedia.org]

Re:Sue Those Monopolistic Apple Bastards! (2, Insightful)

0xdeadbeef (28836) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140675)

The DMCA is the regulation that makes breaking DRM-based vendor lock-in illegal, regardless of other legal issues. Perhaps you don't understand what you linked to.

Re:Sue Those Monopolistic Apple Bastards! (3, Insightful)

Aladrin (926209) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140997)

Perhaps you don't understand what he linked to. Let me reproduce the very first sentence again.

"A free market is a theoretical term that economists use to describe a market which is free from government intervention (i.e. no regulation, no subsidization, no single monetary system and no governmental monopolies)."

Re:Sue Those Monopolistic Apple Bastards! (0)

jedidiah (1196) | more than 4 years ago | (#28141053)

"no governmental monopolies"

My isn't this a convenient little bit of wording.

So a market is "free" so long as the monopolies aren't "governmental".

What a load of dairy fertilizer.

Re:Sue Those Monopolistic Apple Bastards! (1)

0xdeadbeef (28836) | more than 4 years ago | (#28141209)

Ignoring the stupidity of ideologues confusing the philosophical ideal of "laissez-faire" with the much more generic term "free market", all I have to say to you is WHOOSH!

Re:Sue Those Monopolistic Apple Bastards! (2, Funny)

Compholio (770966) | more than 4 years ago | (#28141655)

Am I the only person on earth that sees this as a direct affront to a free market system?!

I do not think that term means what you think it means: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market [wikipedia.org]

Inconceivable!

Re:Sue Those Monopolistic Apple Bastards! (5, Insightful)

moosesocks (264553) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140459)

I was with you up until the DRM part. The iTunes store is almost entirely DRM-free by now.

If you don't like AAC either, Amazon.com sells MP3 downloads that are cheaper than iTunes downloads, and has about the same selection. iTunes was once a monopoly, although Apple's DRM practices ironically ended that rather quickly.

Re:Sue Those Monopolistic Apple Bastards! (1)

nine-times (778537) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140617)

I don't think Apple is selling any music with DRM anymore. They issued an announcement a few weeks ago that their transition was done. Videos and Audible books still have DRM AFAIK.

Re:Sue Those Monopolistic Apple Bastards! (1)

93 Escort Wagon (326346) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140747)

I don't think Apple is selling any music with DRM anymore. They issued an announcement a few weeks ago that their transition was done. Videos and Audible books still have DRM AFAIK.

Right, but the original quote specifically referred to "older" Fairplay-encumbered music. Not everyone made the choice to pay 30 cents a song to upgrade their already-purchased songs (although I did, FWIW).

I'll be curious to see what Apple does here. I'd think in the long run it'd work better for them, and their customers, if they'd help Palm accomplish this rather than to fight them - but we'll see what happens.

Except for... (4, Informative)

nobodyman (90587) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140887)

The iTunes store is almost entirely DRM-free by now.

Except for movies. And TV shows. And audiobooks. Oh, and applications.

But yeah, besides those things, *totally* DRM free.

Re:Sue Those Monopolistic Apple Bastards! (1)

AndrewNeo (979708) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140909)

I do believe it was said that there is on-device Amazon MP3 store support, like on the G1, too.

Re:Sue Those Monopolistic Apple Bastards! (4, Insightful)

Own3d-You (1082423) | more than 4 years ago | (#28141697)

Wasn't that all to do with the music industry refusing to let Apple sell DRM free music? As opposed to "Apple's DRM practices".

Re:Sue Those Monopolistic Apple Bastards! (5, Insightful)

Reality Master 201 (578873) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140465)

I already view them as monopolistic bastards with their iTunes website & iTunes application & iTunes DRM & iPod/iPhone lock-in scheme.

I guess you're entitled to view them as monopolists, but that doesn't mean that view accords with real world legal definitions. There are other sources for digital content online, and there are other players - Apple has a big chunk of the market, but by no means do they have total control - facts you note at the end of your post. Also, let's not forget that a big chunk of the pricing of content is driven by the deals the content providers are willing to cut with Apple - remember the recent change to a tiered pricing scheme from the $.99 for all music.

How is Apple a monopoly, if we understand the term monopoly to mean something other than "a company you don't like/does things that displease you?"

Re:Sue Those Monopolistic Apple Bastards! (5, Insightful)

bennomatic (691188) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140741)

I wish I had mod points because this is a smart response. I hate it when people use the word "monopoly" as a synonym for "I don't like them." If there's a real reason not to like Apple--even a bad one, like, "I always prefer the underdog," is better than none--then use it. Don't just call it a monopoly.

Re:Sue Those Monopolistic Apple Bastards! (2, Insightful)

jedidiah (1196) | more than 4 years ago | (#28141117)

Let's see...

They have the lion's share of the player market.

They have the lion's share of the online media market.

They place artificial compatability barriers excluding others from their media market and players.

The whole reason that music went DRM free is because the
actual producers/distributors of the music realized just
how much power they had handed Apple.

The DMCA gives Apple a nice club that they can beat anyone
over the head with should they dare to reverse engineer
enough information to get an iTunes movie onto the player
of their choice or get an iTunes song onto the OS of their
choice.

The labels have started to route around the problem but that
is still a work in progress.

Re:Sue Those Monopolistic Apple Bastards! (0)

0xdeadbeef (28836) | more than 4 years ago | (#28141033)

How is Apple a monopoly, if we understand the term monopoly to mean something other than "a company you don't like/does things that displease you?"

Wait, like Microsoft?

It isn't the market share that makes a monopoly, it is what they do with it. Apple's negotiating power with the members of the RIAA cartel is very close to that, only we don't mind so much because Apple is actually the lesser evil.

But Apple does use its market share with music players to create lock-in in the markets of computers and mobile phones. How is that different than what Microsoft did/does?

Re:Sue Those Monopolistic Apple Bastards! (3, Insightful)

Achromatic1978 (916097) | more than 4 years ago | (#28141155)

Apple's negotiating power with the members of the RIAA cartel is very close to that, only we don't mind so much because Apple is actually the lesser evil.

You mean the same negotiating power that introduced "variable pricing", which meant that "pretty much any vaguely popular or contemporary song" immediately jumped 30% in price, from 99c to $1.29, whilst Apple fanboys tried to spin it as "well, most tracks are going to go DOWN to 69c!", where "most tracks" was a synonym for "obscure low selling acts that you're lucky to have heard of, let alone desire to purchase" (seriously, did anyone but the most deranged Apple fan honestly believe that Apple and the record labels were going to voluntarily offer up a 30% reduction in revenue?)?

Who won out of that? Apple got a nice kick, and so did the labels. You and I didn't.

I'm not exactly sure why you're trumpeting that as a testament to "Apple's negotiating power", but okay...

Re:Sue Those Monopolistic Apple Bastards! (4, Insightful)

mea37 (1201159) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140559)

Meh. Lock-in across product lines is older than dirt. Its practice doesn't make a company "monopolistic" (though its practice by a monopoly can sometimes be illegal, which may be why you associate the two things).

Anyway, you appear to be wishing for legal action based on how much you like each company's actions rather than on any legal facts; which means you're also not looking at an accurate picture of the costs and outcomes if legal action does occur.

I won't speculate on the issues that would matter in a court case (such as whether any trade secrets were utilized by the ex-Apple engineers that allegedly made this work), but I will say that without knowing the details of those issues, I wouldn't be begging anyone to start casting legal stones.

Re:Sue Those Monopolistic Apple Bastards! (2, Interesting)

PopeRatzo (965947) | more than 4 years ago | (#28141491)

Lock-in across product lines is older than dirt. Its practice doesn't make a company "monopolistic"

No, it makes them unpalatable to customers who like to have a lot of choices for how to use the products they buy.

The original reason I didn't buy an iPod was because I didn't want to have to use iTunes. When other options became available, I had already become a customer of other manufacturers of mp3 players.

The original reason I didn't buy an iPhone was because I didn't like the idea of having to use AT&T. By the time iPhones will work with other carriers, I'll already be happy with some other manufacturer's smart phone.

I started using the Apple operating system during the brief few years that Apple was licensing to other hardware manufacturers. I really liked the interface and got extremely comfortable with some Apple apps, such as Logic Audio Platinum. I was very unhappy when Apple withdrew their licensing program, but I still keep at least one Apple computer in my studio, now with Logic Pro. Because of the limitation to only Apple hardware, if Logic Pro was ever available for Windows, I probably wouldn't buy another Mac Pro. As it is, I use it less and less now that Reaper is my go-to DAW application.

I think Apple makes some great products, but by locking them down and limiting their use, they become much less attractive to me. Fortunately for them, there are plenty of people who can afford to buy Apple, and don't care about having choice. You will hear these people defending Apple's appstore policies, their phone carrier lockins, how wonderful iTunes is.

This is what keeps Apple's share of the PC market pretty static. The people who really care about personal computing care a lot more about having choices than the people who buy consumer electronics, I think.

Re:Sue Those Monopolistic Apple Bastards! (1, Insightful)

DavidR1991 (1047748) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140635)

The Pre is pretending to be an iPod in order to sync. Whilst killing monopolies is great, I'm fairly sure that imitating the iPod crosses a legal line somewhere (presumably reverse engineering employed in order to respond to iTunes' requests etc.) and that Apple have every right to sue.

Re:Sue Those Monopolistic Apple Bastards! (3, Insightful)

Sax Maniac (88550) | more than 4 years ago | (#28141615)

Reverse engineering is perfectly legal for interoperability, if you don't copy the implementation code. My friend's company legally clean-room reverse engineered all of CIFS, so their proprietary boxes can act as a stand-in for Windows.

Re:Sue Those Monopolistic Apple Bastards! (2, Insightful)

larry bagina (561269) | more than 4 years ago | (#28141059)

Hardware manufacturers can write a driver so their junk interface with iTunes. Nomads and RIOs work with iTunes.

Palm Pre syncs with iTunes? Big deal. The real story (or "fuck you") is that they're using webkit.

Re:Sue Those Monopolistic Apple Bastards! (1)

PopeRatzo (965947) | more than 4 years ago | (#28141299)

Such a letter would be the stupidest move Apple has made in a long time.

I bet if we asked Slashdot readers, they could come up with a few other ones.

Right. (1, Troll)

MachineShedFred (621896) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140285)

I'm sure that Apple won't find a way to break this in an iTunes update down the road. They certainly have no history of breaking unlicensed addons... Nope...

Why is this a big deal? (5, Informative)

Enuratique (993250) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140293)

iTunes currently supports about 20 non-iPod devices:
Nomad II Creative Labs USB
Nomad II MG Creative Labs USB
Nomad II c Creative Labs USB
Nomad Jukebox Creative Labs USB
Nomad Jukebox 20GB Creative Labs USB
Nomad Jukebox C Creative Labs USB
Novad MuVo Creative Labs USB
Rio One SONICBlue/S3 USB
Rio 500 SONICBlue/S3 USB
Rio 600 SONICBlue/S3 USB
Rio 800 SONICBlue/S3 USB
Rio 900 SONICBlue/S3 USB
Rio S10 SONICBlue/S3 USB
Rio S11 SONICBlue/S3 USB
Rio S30S SONICBlue/S3 USB
Rio S35S SONICBlue/S3 USB
Rio S50 SONICBlue/S3 USB
Rio Chiba SONICBlue/S3 USB
Rio Fuse SONICBlue/S3 USB
Rio Cali SONICBlue/S3 USB
psa]play 60 Nike USB
psa]play 120 Nike USB
SoundSpace 2 Nakamichi USB

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2172 [apple.com]

Re:Why is this a big deal? (5, Insightful)

eldavojohn (898314) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140437)

The big deal is that Apple's not supporting iTunes interfacing with the Pre. The support is coming from Pre's side. Your post says:

iTunes currently supports about 20 non-iPod devices

The big deal is that it seems as if Apple decides what gets supported and what doesn't. It should be built so that any device maker can choose whether or not to build an adapter so that their hardware can interface with iTunes? Where does this leave iRiver, Archos, Sandisk, Microsoft, Centon, Nextar, etc?

Apple decides who lives and who dies. That's the big deal.

Re:Why is this a big deal? (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28140545)

Nokia has been syncing with iTunes as log as I can remember. They have their own software and is very simple to do. it's not supported by Apple and in hasn't stopped working in the last 3 or so years.

Re:Why is this a big deal? (1)

rodrigoandrade (713371) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140753)

Troll???? He's absolutely right.

Anyone can do this and many have (5, Informative)

macslut (724441) | more than 4 years ago | (#28141095)

That list, which is old, represents the 3rd party plugins which are bundled with iTunes by default. The SDK allows anyone to develop their own plugin. As someone else mentioned, Nokia has done this a long time ago. This could not be any more of a non-story. It's really bad reporting. It would've been more interesting to me if they had said that Palm made the Pre so that it could *not* sync music with iTunes. And the headline is incredibly misleading...it won't sync DRM music people may have in their libraries, and it won't sync movies, tv shows and most importantly apps purchased from iTunes. "This fight just got a lot more interesting." (sigh)

Re:Why is this a big deal? (2, Interesting)

Rob Y. (110975) | more than 4 years ago | (#28141213)

The big deal is that Apple's not supporting iTunes interfacing with the Pre. The support is coming from Pre's side.

If that's true, then the Pre could emulate one of the non-ipod devices and sync to iTunes. Can Apple sue Palm for emulating a Rio? Possibly, I guess, if Rio's paying royalties for the privilege of syncing to iTunes...

Re:Why is this a big deal? (1)

Own3d-You (1082423) | more than 4 years ago | (#28141745)

How does apple decide who lives and dies? If your device doesn't sync with iTunes, use a different player. It's really not that hard.

Re:Why is this a big deal? (1)

moosesocks (264553) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140505)

How old is that list? Those products are ancient. SONICBlue went bankrupt in 2003!

Also, IIRC, the 3rd-party players could only sync with the Mac version of iTunes. I wouldn't be surprised if the support has been removed entirely, given that I sincerely doubt people are still using those players (some of which hold as little as 32MB!)

Re:Why is this a big deal? (0)

yali (209015) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140511)

From your link:

only iPod can play AAC Protected songs

That's the big deal.

Re:Why is this a big deal? (1)

XxtraLarGe (551297) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140627)

That's the big deal.

That was not Apple's fault. Without protected AAC's, Apple would not have had a lot of that music to sell in the first place. If you want to blame somebody for DRM, blame the music business. Now that iTunes is almost 100% iTunes Plus non-DRM'd files, even that's not a "big deal".

Re:Why is this a big deal? (3, Insightful)

nine-times (778537) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140631)

Not a huge deal, considering Apple doesn't sell AAC Protected songs anymore.

Re:Why is this a big deal? (0, Redundant)

Moridineas (213502) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140749)

That's the big deal.

Why is that a big deal? I don't think apple even SELLS protected aac songs anymore?

Re:Why is this a big deal? (1)

PrescriptionWarning (932687) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140819)

well it is a big deal for folks like a friend of mine who have already bought quite a lot of the protected AACs, and now being told they have to pay more money to "unlock" them. What a load of crap, they should offer redownload for free once a DRM free version is available for those same songs (unless they already do that, in which case i'm haplessly unable to be up with the times)

Re:Why is this a big deal? (3, Interesting)

Jeff DeMaagd (2015) | more than 4 years ago | (#28141089)

It's not so simple as that. What you call an "unlock" gets you double the bit rate too. A workaround that Apple execs have talked about publicly is that you burn it to CD and rip it back. If you're not at all interested in doubling the bit rate, the small amount of loss in re-encoding probably isn't going to be a big deal.

We can talk about coulda woulda shoulda, but I doubt Apple is the main problem here. If the RIAA is involved in the mix, I think the RIAA should get the lion's share of the blame if it doesn't go the way you think it should.

Re:Why is this a big deal? (1, Insightful)

scubamage (727538) | more than 4 years ago | (#28141349)

Caveat emptor.

Re:Why is this a big deal? (1)

Achromatic1978 (916097) | more than 4 years ago | (#28141567)

Free? Hahaha. Why voluntarily miss out on a revenue opportunity? You can unlock your tunes, for 30c a track.

Re:Why is this a big deal? (5, Informative)

0xdeadbeef (28836) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140589)

Those are legacy devices, pre-dating the iPod, from the time when iTunes was just a music management application (originally called SoundJam MP) and not the lynchpin of Apple's vertical monopoly entertainment strategy.

None of those devices are supported on iTunes for Windows.

Re:Why is this a big deal? (1)

InlawBiker (1124825) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140987)

I was surprised to find that my Blackberry 8820 also syncs with iTunes. In fact, if you want to sync music on your Blackberry it requires iTunes, via the Blackberry Desktop software. I was also surprised to find that the Blackberry is a reasonably good media player.

I don't see why Apple would care too much if Palm did the same thing. More users of iTunes means more potential music buyers.

iTunes Has Always Supported Other Players (5, Informative)

EastCoastSurfer (310758) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140295)

They are even documented [apple.com] on Apple's website. I'm not sure why it's a surprise that the Pre is also going to be able to sync with iTunes.

Re:iTunes Has Always Supported Other Players (1)

brennanw (5761) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140341)

Because the Pre is a phone, I guess. But I agree -- it doesn't seem that big a deal to me.

Re:iTunes Has Always Supported Other Players (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28140411)

Because it has additional functionality not even available to Apple products.

Wireless syncing with iTunes puts the Palm Pre ahead of the mighty iPhone in terms of functionality. While this alone isn't a huge deal.

The big deal will be how Apple reacts. Specifically, if Apple intentionally cripples the Palm's unique functionality to create an artificial advantage for the iPhone.

Re:iTunes Has Always Supported Other Players (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28140425)

Dude, that document is obsolete and only covers the Mac version of Itunes

Re:iTunes Has Always Supported Other Players (1)

FooMasterZero (515781) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140835)

Its my understanding that it works by telling itunes it's an ipod as opposed to a pre device. Personally i think the pre should be able to sync with itunes as other devices have been able to. However I do not like the idea of the pre screwing around with the USB vendor and device ids to make this work, this to me is fraud and is not good behavior on any hardware or software vendor in my opinion. Which again is my understanding of how the pre actually does the syncing. As per the parent they should read the available API's and work with apple, cause after all more pre users = more apple/itunes (movie,music,*) store users ?

Re:iTunes Has Always Supported Other Players (3, Insightful)

gad_zuki! (70830) | more than 4 years ago | (#28141441)

Why is this fraud? It should be fraudulent to block other players from accessing my software.

Its really incredible how people instinctively side with bad corporate policies. How about my rights as a consumer? How about the right to tinker? How about educating people about Apple's horrible policies?

I see nothing wrong with this. I hope its a wake up call to the industry and I hope it shows all the apple fanboys whats wrong with their favorite company.

Re:iTunes Has Always Supported Other Players (1)

FooMasterZero (515781) | more than 4 years ago | (#28141747)

I actually agree with you as far as consumer rights and the right to tinker. I am just saying if anything represents itself as something that is not than that is where i say it is fraud or at the very least mis-representation is all. Nothing like other device manufacturers doing the same trick then it becomes an endless cat and mouse game where no one really wins because everything is lying about who they are or what they do just to work with some service or system. iTunes yes should be the responsible party in all of this and realize the market they have the means to let other devices and services play in a way where they not forced to 'fake it'

I can see an iTunes update in your future. (5, Insightful)

Tibor the Hun (143056) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140305)

Honestly, who bases a whole product line on a "faking out" feature.
I'm no fan of DRM, and wish iTunes was more open to other devices, but to publish a whole iPhone "killer" on a kludge is just asking for trouble.

WTF are consumers going to do when Apple pushes an update that breaks this (intentionally, or not) and all of a sudden this marvelous sync stops working?

Re:I can see an iTunes update in your future. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28140375)

So they break existing communications to third party devices to block competition. Ooh, can anyone else see a lawsuit coming. US may take it up the arse, but Europe will be watching very closely. After all, Apple regularly tout they are 95% of online music sales, that's as big as Microsoft's monopoly.

Re:I can see an iTunes update in your future. (1)

areusche (1297613) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140441)

Palm or its user community will probably publish its own update to circumvent Apple's lock out. The older Palm OS community was pretty hard core in getting OS 5 working incredibly well. I see no reason for them (with due time) be able to work WebOS as they did OS 5.

Re:I can see an iTunes update in your future. (0)

0100010001010011 (652467) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140565)

If palm didn't kill the community, [slashdot.org] you might have a point.

Re:I can see an iTunes update in your future. (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28140715)

palm canceled a meeting because an idiot violated the NDA he was under. this will have no impact on the amount of people developing for their new OS. nice FUD, though.

the community refers to more that the self-aggrandizing idiots that made that blog post that was turned into a /. "article". the community is all of the people who will develop for the new palm OS. which, since the Pre doesn't have to be hacked to run unsigned code, will probably be quite a lot.

Re:I can see an iTunes update in your future. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28140673)

They can also do OTA updates (according to the Palm demo at All Things Digital that was liveblogged on Engadget). So, if Apple does break it, they may be able to push an update before many people even realize there is a problem. Well, at least based on my workflow. I only sync my iPhone when I need to add new podcasts since I have everything push syncing OTA. So, I usually only sync once per week. With the Pre, contacts sync from the cloud, so daily syncing shouldn't be needed.

Re:I can see an iTunes update in your future. (1)

AnalPerfume (1356177) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140443)

I wonder too if Apple have some patents tucked away under a sofa somewhere they could bring out to demand hefty fees for permission to sync with their stuff.

Re:I can see an iTunes update in your future. (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28140561)

Honestly, who bases a whole product line on a "faking out" feature.

Your question seems to be missing its mark, both literally and figuratively. No one, except some knockoffs possibly, bases a product line on "fake out". It's not like Palm is billing the Pre as The Palm iPod, what they're doing is selling a phone with an incredibly interesting looking new OS that features some of the most open software development seen to date on a smartphone. Oh, and by the way, you can get your music on there if you've got some of those EmPeeThree tracks in your iTunes.

It's in Palms interest to push the bar in terms of what is expected of non-Apple smartphones. Apple has performed so well that they they have arguably dictated the feature set customers now expect in a smartphone, and one of those features is having your music on the device. Beyond that, Apple has also been wildly successful in the digital music business to the tune of maintaining over "70 percent market share of legal music downloads" (ITunes Store [wikipedia.org] ).

We're in a situation where one company is in control of both the music you get and the device you want to listen to it on. Why wouldn't Palm make a ballsy move like this and try to force their competitor into an anti-competitive position. As was described elsewhere, this is win-win for them. Either they get iTunes integration or they hurt Apple's mindshare by forcing them into a bad position.

Re:I can see an iTunes update in your future. (1)

bendodge (998616) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140903)

If the fake is good enough, it will break real iPods too. Then Apple would have to release an update for the iPod and iTunes, and probably delay in between, at which time Palm updates the Pre. Essentially an arms race. Palm would probably be locked out at times, but if Palm is diligent it should work pretty well. They'd have an advantage in that a smartphone can be updated at anytime, vs an regular iPod which must be connected to a PC.

Re:I can see an iTunes update in your future. (1)

ifrag (984323) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140931)

WTF are consumers going to do when Apple pushes an update that breaks this (intentionally, or not) and all of a sudden this marvelous sync stops working?

I'm sure that will go over well, since that's equivalent to also killing legacy iPod support along with it. If Palm did their job right then the thing will not be distinguishable from a real iPod. If their implementation is good enough Apple's only recourse is going to be legal, not technical.

Re:I can see an iTunes update in your future. (1)

saleenS281 (859657) | more than 4 years ago | (#28141583)

I'm not sure if you noticed, but the Palm Pre is a cellphone. It is not "based" in a fashion on iTunes sync capabilities. It's just another nice feature to have. If apple breaks it, it will be fixed again. If Apple continues to break it, I'm sure there will likely be a lawsuit... because, as has been quoted many times before, that sort of thing is frowned upon by the courts per the Clatyon act.

http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/6538 [linuxjournal.com]

Option 2 (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28140397)

Or Apple could realize that the iTunes store is BIG money and AT&T does not cover the whole US with their network and let Palm sync music. Music people paid Apple to download. Apple has other issues to tackle rather than worrying about a marginalized company like Palm giving it free advertising while encouraging people to buy even more music from Apple. Heck, Apple might even lend an engineer to Palm so that there is less faking and more playing on Apple's terms. It has happened before. Probably be some lawyer rattling for Wall St. but so long as Apple is keeping its head low to avoid anti-trust lawsuits and Palm doesn't look like they are going to become a major player, Apple might just let let this one slide.

Re:Option 2 (1)

penguinstorm (575341) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140935)

err....yeah...ok anony-boy. Sorry. Your comments more or less echo some ones I made below, which I posed before I read your post.

My apologies.

So...? (3, Interesting)

nine-times (778537) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140409)

Is this really such a "big fat middle finger"? It's cementing iTunes as the default player and iTMS as the default music store, and putting Palm in the position of trying to pick up some of Apple's leftovers. Plus, if Apple doesn't like it, they can issue firmware updates and update iTunes, making everything connect some slightly different way, and suddenly Palm's stuff stops working.

If Palm really wanted to make trouble for Apple, they'd make their own alternative to iTunes, which wouldn't take much work. If they really didn't want to do it from scratch, I'm sure there are even some open source projects [getsongbird.com] that could be used as a jumping-off point. And if they didn't want to make their own music store, they could probably strike a deal with Amazon. Now that would be a problem for Apple.

Re:So...? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28140623)

I'm not sure it's cementing iTunes as the default player, as much as it is taking away excuses for people to not buy non-Apple blessed products.

iTMS is big money for Apple, but so are iPods. Take one or the other away and you break Apple's vice grip.

I hate iTunes, I think it's one of the worst Music management and playing tools out there, but I do have an iPhone and two iPods so I'm stuck with iTunes.

It would be sweet if Pre found a way to integrate with every other music store out there (amazon, napster, etc) on the device without even connecting to a PC.
That is one of the nice features of the iPhone, you can be on the road, browse iTMS for a song or album, buy it right there and download it over 3G.

Re:So...? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28140757)

Apple can't just publish an update that makes Pre stop working. If Pre is pretending to be an iPod, then all iPods would also stop working.

The only hope is to find something that Pre does slightly differently than a real iPod and try to base a block on that. But blocking things in that way only lasts a short time until Palm would update the Pre.

Furthermore, the block could prevent other MP3 players that iTunes already supports from working properly (Apple officially supports players other than iPods).

Best news all day (1)

docbrody (1159409) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140419)

Well this knocks off one of the major reasons I was hesitating on getting the Pre. And lets not just assume Apple will sue. As others have pointed out, Apple does allow other players. But will movies and TV shows work? (no they are drm protected). Guess I'll have to rely on the Sling app for the Pre, or hopefully a hulu solution.

Re:Best news all day (1)

Xest (935314) | more than 4 years ago | (#28141593)

I'm not sure what Apple could actually sue for. AFAIK reverse engineering for the purpose of producing a compatible product is actually one of the get-out clauses for cracking DRM under the DMCA. Another is educational research I believe.

I'm not sure they're actually doing anything illegal - look at the Psystar case, the best Apple could come up with was breaking the EULA.

If history is a guide,Apple will easily break this (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28140427)

If experience with palm os on my trusty handspring is guide, Apple will be able to break this easily. Palm's USB driver was a total joke. The hotsync would regularly blue-screen windows in a multi-core or even hyperthreaded environment unless you forced affinity on the hotsync.exe. And they never fixed it. They couldn't even cope with seeing more than one core in a usb driver. One of the few apps I ever saw that could blue-screen windows.

And they only recently supplied drivers that worked under vista. And the still haven't released an x64 version.

Soured me on Palm forever. And proved their driver's dept sucks.

Re:If history is a guide,Apple will easily break t (2, Insightful)

SethJohnson (112166) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140571)

The hotsync would regularly blue-screen windows in a multi-core or even hyperthreaded environment unless you forced affinity on the hotsync.exe.

Is this a problem with the driver, sync app, or OS? Honestly, I would wonder why my OS couldn't protect itself from something going on with USB.

Seth

Re:If history is a guide,Apple will easily break t (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28140809)

Problem with the driver. Windows drivers are low level, you screw something up there, everything goes down (BSOD).

Re:If history is a guide,Apple will easily break t (1)

geekboy642 (799087) | more than 4 years ago | (#28141629)

That, though, is a design flaw common to everything that doesn't use a microkernel. Even linux suffers from this problem, despite the continuing efforts of microkernel enthusiasts. Some day I'd like to see a mainstream OS with a kernel that can't be crashed by a driver, because I want to look back on this as the "bad old days".

But... (3, Interesting)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140493)

Will Amarok 1.4 work with the Pre?
I would love to have a Smart Phone that works well with Linux.

Re:But... (2, Informative)

Ingenium13 (162116) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140815)

Will Amarok 1.4 work with the Pre? I would love to have a Smart Phone that works well with Linux.

I would imagine it would. It simply shows up as a mass media device, where you can just copy MP3s over to it and they show up in the media library. This is the same way a lot of other MP3 players work, so it should be trivial to get Amarok support

Re:But... (3, Insightful)

MikeBabcock (65886) | more than 4 years ago | (#28141427)

Amarok 1.4 works with every other MP3 player I've tried it with ... so I don't see why not.

I'd much rather use Amarok than iTunes.

Speculation (5, Interesting)

jav1231 (539129) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140573)

Pure speculation here but what if during that whole patent debate that Palm and Apple had regarding touch technology Apple conceded to let the Pre sync? Just a thought.

I mean I'm sure Apple told Palm, "Hey, you can't use multi-touch or anything like it."
So Palm said, "Oh yeah? Browse our portfolio. We've highlighted a number of patents the iPod, Touch, and iPhone clearly violate."
Apple: "Cross License?"
Palm: "Sure! Oh, and we want to sync to iTunes."

Coming soon.... (5, Funny)

AdmiralXyz (1378985) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140579)

iTunes 8.1.2, "fixes syncing issues"

Re:Coming soon.... (1)

amasiancrasian (1132031) | more than 4 years ago | (#28141067)

+1 Funny

In all honesty, I can't see Apple pushing out an update to iTunes just to break syncing functionality with Pre. Aside from the fact that Apple alumni engineers developed the method of syncing, any update to iTunes could also break legacy support for older iPods.

Apple is pretty aware of an entire jailbreak community for months, yet hardly do they push out an update just to break what they perceive an "exploit." Perhaps the only time they have willfully tried to stop jailbreaking was the iPhone 1.1.2 update, but since the backlash of that surfaced to public media, they have relented. Although jailbreaking depends on a hardware exploit (which makes it harder to fix), Apple usually simply ignores the behavior, especially if it is one that would result in negative backlash.

My guess is that since they also support other players and want to avoid being seen as walking in Microsoft's footsteps, they will avoid making this an issue. It will probably be unlikely, but they may even list it as a supported music device in the knowledge base. Apple would be wise to avoid garnering a backlash, and even touch on anti-competitive practices.

Blackberries already can sync from iTunes (1)

new death barbie (240326) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140743)

...apparently (http://na.blackberry.com/eng/services/media/mediasync.jsp).

Granted, they use a separate app, but if I could control my music and media with iTunes and listen to it on my BB, that'd be good enough for me.

big fat what? (1)

markringen (1501853) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140767)

big fat middle finger? i don't think apple is much worried about it. it's more like pulling apple's finger, and apple farting a bit and saying excellent. my friends response: the Palm what? or do they still exist? this is the general response i get from people in Europe and Asia. as far as i am concerned Palm is going the way of the dodo.

Why go the legal route? (1)

penguinstorm (575341) | more than 4 years ago | (#28140849)

Why would Apple go the legal route?

Just block the damn device. When iSync my Gen 4 iPod iTunes knows it's a Gen 4 iPod. When I sync my shuffle, it knows it's a shuffle.

When I sync my Pre, it will know it's a Pre.

So just rev itunes to block it.

Or not, and just walk around acting like you're not scared. Frankly, I think the Pre is roughly the equivalent of pulling your goalie in the final minutes of your final playoff game when you're behind: a last ditch effort. Palm may well just die as a result, and maybe Apple should do nothing for a while and see what happens.

As an aside, I'm not sure why everybody thinks this is new. Diamond Rio players used to mount in iTunes and you could sync playlists. I have a Nike PSA Play sitting in a drawer that I bought in 1998 that did this. It stores...96MB of music thanks to the MMC expansion card I bought (not compatible with SD.) Woo hoo!

Re:Why go the legal route? (2, Interesting)

iluvcapra (782887) | more than 4 years ago | (#28141077)

Just block the damn device. When iSync my Gen 4 iPod iTunes knows it's a Gen 4 iPod. When I sync my shuffle, it knows it's a shuffle.

DVD Jon agrees with your appraisal of the situation. [nanocr.eu]

Re:Why go the legal route? (3, Informative)

StreetStealth (980200) | more than 4 years ago | (#28141451)

When I sync my Pre, it will know it's a Pre.

No, it won't. Think about it for a moment and you'll realize why.

iTunes knows which version or revision of iPod is connected because Apple has prepared iTunes to recognize each one -- first-party software recognizes first-party hardware. The icons are all stored inside the iTunes binary, and it's only relying on an identifier from a list of possible iPods it knows of (thus the software update after each iPod release).

Most likely, the Pre is presenting itself to iTunes as a 4th gen iPod, something that iTunes has to support and for which there is a lot of reverse-engineering work already out in in the hackersphere.

Re:Why go the legal route? (1)

penguinstorm (575341) | more than 4 years ago | (#28141695)

> Most likely, the Pre is presenting itself to iTunes as a 4th gen iPod

Agreed, though I'm quite sure that they can overcome that /should they choose too./

I'm not going to speculate on the specifics since I don't have in depth hardware knowledge.

Anyway, if I were Steve Jobs I'd take the "walk around with a swagger in your step" approach personally. At least for a while. Apple is the undisputed king digital music right now. My approach would be to act as such: keep a close eye on all potential threats, but don't start acting like a dictator and lopping their heads off too soon. If Palm actually gains enough market share and starts to look like any kind of threat, a course of action can be undertaken at that time.

Automagic should be voted worst word of the year (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28140951)

Seriously its not like Merlin waits around your computer and waves a wand to make it work.

Pocket Tunes (1)

peterpan79 (1151325) | more than 4 years ago | (#28141093)

The commercial software pocket tunes (http://www.pocket-tunes.com/) supports iTunes - Palm Sync for the models

Palm Centro
Palm T|X
Palm Treo 650
Palm Treo 680
Palm Treo 700p
Palm Treo 755p

and also for Windows Mobile. So it cannot be that hard to implement this for the new palm models..

Not that hard (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28141133)

It's not all that hard to do when you control the software on the device:
http://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2009/03/14/rockboxitunes/ [daniel.haxx.se]

Thanks to a team of ex-Apple engineers (3, Funny)

jellomizer (103300) | more than 4 years ago | (#28141243)

and soon to be ex-Palm engineers.

Palm exec: I thank you for all your effort in giving us the inside scoop on how Apple work. No I will have to fire you because you have shown yourself to not be a trust full person and we have no confidence that you will honor our NDA, as you have shown not to honor your previous employer.

The money is in iTunes (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28141323)

The money isn't in the iPhone or iPod, but it's in iTune. Don't get me wrong, making a bit of profit from selling the hardware is nice, but Apple really makes it money in the "supporting" side of the equation.

Think of it this way, for each iPod or iPhone, apple say makes $20 after all costs (development, support, etc) are assumed. They sell 4 million of these units and make a whopping $80 million dollars. That's chump change. If in 3 years of owning the iPhone or iPod, you download say about 2 dozen cheap games giving them say about $1 each, a few CDs worth of music, say about 50 songs where they make about $30 total. The iPhones and iPod make them about $208 million. This doesn't take into account any liability of a battery exploding, etc. Music/movie files have a low overhead and a low liability issue. they even duck the issue on apps as they are only a distribution service.

So if some hardware manufacturer wants to connect to iTunes, I seriously doubt Apple will give them much fuss so long as
1) They don't besmirch the Apple name
2) Apple makes a profit from them connecting to iTunes
3) They don't use any Apple IP in their product.

Amusing... (2, Interesting)

Maury Markowitz (452832) | more than 4 years ago | (#28141341)

I find it more than a little ironic that before this item became news all the Pre supporters were saying iTunes was craptastic and claiming the lack of syncing on the Pre as a feature. Everything's in "the cloud", so who needs desktop tethering?

Ahhh, but now that it syncs with iTunes, suddenly Palm is super-genius for supporting and iTunes support is [i]obviously[/i] a major selling point.

Whatever. When Apple blocks it and it doesn't sync, I'm sure syncing will suddenly not be important again.

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