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KDE 4.2.4 Released

timothy posted more than 4 years ago | from the smoothing-a-smoothie dept.

KDE 153

An anonymous reader writes "KDE 4.2.4 has been released. See the release announcement for details." Barring a "security issue or another grave bug," this is the end of the KDE 4.2 line, which means for distros based on long-term support, it might be the thing to get used to for a while.

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153 comments

Ouch my butt! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28200897)

I just got out of the shower a few minutes ago and my anus hurts after Hans Reiser fucked me in the butt after I dropped the soap!

Re:Ouch my butt! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28201213)

I have mod points but...

Really?

You let a guy who killed his mail-order, Russian bride, ass rape you?

I can only say this:

Can I come to the wedding? And will you be wearing white? (thought not :-( )

Never been to a Troll wedding.

BSD? (3, Funny)

hackel (10452) | more than 4 years ago | (#28200921)

I didn't know KDE was a BSD project now.

Re:BSD? (1, Informative)

harryandthehenderson (1559721) | more than 4 years ago | (#28200973)

KDE is a powerful Open Source graphical desktop environment for Unix and Unix-like workstations.

http://freebsd.kde.org/ [kde.org]

Re:BSD? (2, Informative)

hackel (10452) | more than 4 years ago | (#28201019)

lol, I wasn't questioning whether KDE could *run* on *BSD! I was referring to putting this story in the BSD category on Slashdot.

Re:BSD? (2, Interesting)

harryandthehenderson (1559721) | more than 4 years ago | (#28201059)

Because it's widely used on BSDs as the DE?

Re:BSD? (1, Insightful)

dacut (243842) | more than 4 years ago | (#28201177)

And gcc is widely used as the compiler for BSD, but I doubt it'll be filed there. :-)

Re:BSD? (1, Insightful)

harryandthehenderson (1559721) | more than 4 years ago | (#28201217)

Probably not. It really doesn't make any sense that it was marked the way it is, but I figured I'd try to guess why it might have.

Re:BSD? (5, Insightful)

chill (34294) | more than 4 years ago | (#28201301)

This is Slashdot. Always go with the default reason. The editors fucked up. It explains almost everything.

Dupes. The editors fucked up.
Miscategorized. The editors fucked up.
Everything that says "iPhone" promoted to front page. The editors fucked up.
Cowboy Neal. The editors fucked up.

See?

Re:BSD? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28201475)

You being allowed to post?

Re:BSD? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28205179)

What a noob! LOL

Re:BSD? (1, Informative)

dacut (243842) | more than 4 years ago | (#28201697)

Understood. I was just amused at the thought of a GNU project being filed under BSD. Not quite like bringing antimatter and matter together (or emacs/vi), but the fallout would be amusing nonetheless.

Re:BSD? (1)

Praeluceo (528253) | more than 4 years ago | (#28203859)

Well, it isn't really a "GNU" project, it is GPLed, but I think Gnome would be better called a GNU project. Afterall, Gnome exists because of KDE's non-GNU-friendly license.

So if any of the DEs were to be labeled as BSD, I'd say it's KDE.

Just sayin', there's a fun history here, and thinking of KDE as a GNU project is a funny thought.

Re:BSD? (1)

hackel (10452) | more than 4 years ago | (#28201195)

Well that really makes no sense. Countless other software is also widely used on BSDs... I don't see any reason to tie the two together.

Re:BSD? (1)

pseudonomous (1389971) | more than 4 years ago | (#28205829)

The way I see it:

1) There's no intrinsic tie between KDE and linux either, so if you want to tag the story with a penguin then you may as well add a daemon as well.

2) KDE is the desktop of choice for both Desktop BSD and PC BSD, as far as I know these are the only 2 desktop oriented BSD distributions out there, so actually BSD is linked in more to KDE than GNOME.

3) KDE in theory (and practice) ports to other platforms as well: WIndows/OS X/Other unix, but in practice, I don't think you see anything like the same usage rates of KDE users vs. total OS users anywhere but in BSD and Linux -land.  Just out of curiosity:

Does anyone use KDE on "esoteric Unixes" (AIX, HP-UX, Irix, etc)?

Re:BSD? (1)

Saint Fnordius (456567) | more than 4 years ago | (#28206711)

Point 2 could be considered debatable, as Darwin (the Unix core of Mac OS X) is considered a BSD-derivative. The mascot for Darwin even reflects this as a platypus wearing a devil hat and wielding a trident. So Darwin is technically the third desktop-oriented BSD distro.

This doesn't lessen your argument, though. It's just a footnote you should be aware of, since Darwin is rarely seen without the Aqua desktop environment and is well hidden from the average user.

Oh, and yes, I personally have tried out KDE on a Mac. Though it didn't wow me enough to abandon the default Mac OS X setup, I did like what I saw.

Re:BSD? (0)

BitZtream (692029) | more than 4 years ago | (#28201985)

Why is this marked as troll, its a true statement with no malice intended as I can see it. His statement is 100% factually correct, even though I believe he is incorrect in that being the reason why its filed under BSD. Its just what happens when timmy blindly clicks the promote to front page button IMO, but this guy isn't exactly trolling or even trying in the least.

Remember kiddies, Troll is not an alias to 'disagree' or 'wrong' no matter how much you think it is.

Re:BSD? (2, Insightful)

JackieBrown (987087) | more than 4 years ago | (#28204347)

I assume that he pissed someone off that has mod points.

Any statement he makes is being marked as troll

Re:BSD? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28201579)

Going by that logic, the "Linux" category should be removed as well.

Re:BSD? (2, Informative)

timothy (36799) | more than 4 years ago | (#28202735)

a) You might not agree with the reasoning in b), but I'm probably not going to spend any more time responding ;)

b) Slashdot has sectional stories for stories we'd like to post but (as with this, a point-release of software other than, say, the Linux kernel), and there's a slightly messy overlap between sections, topics and tags, in that a given story can be assigned to multiple sections, tagged with various terms including ones that are covered by topics or section names, and labeled with any of the 100+ topics (some of which are also named sections).

There's not a perfect single section for "cross-platform desktop environment," so this one I set to both Linux and BSD sections, because KDE is frequently used in OSes of both varieties. It's also set to the topics KDE and GUI. In a parallel universe, it might be set to the KDE *section* (Slashdot just isn't set up to have one), and tagged workswithbsd, or something like that. Or given a list of "reasons" / topics in descending order, and set to an "intensity" level lower than that of stories that appear on the front page.

As David Weinberger says, Everything is Miscellaneous [everything...aneous.com] ; indexing's a pain.

timothy

Re:BSD? (1)

JackieBrown (987087) | more than 4 years ago | (#28204389)

What's that symbol next to your name? I can recall seeing that before.

Re:BSD? (1)

gigabites2 (1484115) | more than 4 years ago | (#28204693)

It seems to indicate Slashdot staff status. I've seen it on other members of the staff as well. It appears to only link to slashdot.org though.

Re:BSD? (1)

cbhacking (979169) | more than 4 years ago | (#28206039)

It means that he's a Slashdot admin or employee or something of that nature. Note the text at the top of the page:

Posted by timothy on Wednesday June 03, @01:43PM
from the smoothing-a-smoothie dept.

CmdrTaco and all the rest have it too.

Re:BSD? (1)

cbhacking (979169) | more than 4 years ago | (#28202301)

Regardless of what section it is filed under, it's also worth noting that KDE 4.x runs on Windows too. I'm not quite ready to suggest replacing WIndows Explorer entirely, but the apps and even the desktop work pretty well. That said, I would never have heard of KDE without trying Linux...

KDE 4 looks promising (3, Interesting)

overshoot (39700) | more than 4 years ago | (#28201541)

But the wait for it to be sufficiently feature-complete to be usable is a strain.

My Kubuntu 8.04 is getting kinda long in the tooth, but the newer ones don't work at all, unless someone knows of a KDE 3.59 or 3.60 backport -- that'd be sweet.

Re:KDE 4 looks promising (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28201691)

What exactly do you miss in KDE 4.2? My only problem is the poor Bluetooth support (lack of file browsing on my phone, mainly).

Re:KDE 4 looks promising (1)

RicardoGCE (1173519) | more than 4 years ago | (#28205373)

What exactly do you miss in KDE 4.2? My only problem is the poor Bluetooth support (lack of file browsing on my phone, mainly).

A working network manager would be lovely.

Re:KDE 4 looks promising (1)

FromellaSlob (813394) | more than 4 years ago | (#28206005)

It's there. Knetworkmanager was replaced by the network manager plasmoid.

Re:KDE 4 looks promising (1)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 4 years ago | (#28206419)

Knetworkmanager, in Intrepid, was KDE3-based, and for some reason, KDE3 apps can't talk to a KDE4 kwallet. Ubuntu solved this by having them not even try, meaning it forgot all my saved passwords, and saved any new ones in the clear.

The network manager plasmoid looks potentially awesome, except:

  - Add two of them, and you get two notifications for network events. WTF?
  - The fonts don't fit. At all. This is a common KDE4 problem for me -- it's always fucking up and chopping off part of a chunk of text for no reason -- but this is especially bad in the NetworkManager plasmoid.
  - No WPA support. WTF?! Does nobody test this shit?

Going back to Intrepid is not an option, as Intrepid broke Bluetooth, and had dozens of very ugly graphical glitches and performance issues that are fixed in Jaunty. And Jaunty broke WPA.

When is Kubuntu going to be good again?

Re:KDE 4 looks promising (1)

yet-another-lobbyist (1276848) | more than 4 years ago | (#28201727)

Apparently, there is a backport to KDE3:
https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Kde3/Jaunty [kubuntu.org]
I haven't tried it, though.
I was VERY frustrated with KDE 4.0 and KDE 4.1, and I was very much in need for a kubuntu KDE3 backport, especially as my new Dell E6400 needed a kernel > 2.6.26 to have all the hardware supported, so going with kubuntu 8.04 (the last with an official KDE3 support) was not an option for me. However, I am now a very happy KDE4 user. For my needs, it has already surpassed KDE 3 in terms of feature richness by a significant margin. And it runs extremely well and stable for me. Therefore this backport came too late for me.

Re:KDE 4 looks promising (1)

Tadu (141809) | more than 4 years ago | (#28201987)

Actually, why not go with the KDE 3 beta 1 port for jaunty?

Essentially, it shows progress on all itches I had with 4.2 -- the weather applet, kdelirc being ported, the CPU/mem/swap applet being readded. Now only the device notifier needs to be revamped, and konqi should learn that double click means to mark words and not some random part of the line... (Yes, there are some crashes. Sometimes. So? At least it provides the functionality I need.)

Re:KDE 4 looks promising (3, Informative)

cbhacking (979169) | more than 4 years ago | (#28202339)

KDE 4.2 is perfectly usable. It's what 4 (in general) should ahve been from the start. Don't even bother looking at 4.1 or 4.0, and if you do, don't expect 4.2 to be the same. It's not. The older ones are broken, yes, but don't assume taht means that 4.x is *ALL* broken.

Re:KDE 4 looks promising (1)

Khashishi (775369) | more than 4 years ago | (#28202929)

It's what 4 (in general) should ahve been from the start.

That's what people said about 4.1.

Re:KDE 4 looks promising (3, Insightful)

gigabites2 (1484115) | more than 4 years ago | (#28204721)

That's because of the immense contrast between the two versions. Say you had had to use 4.0 for months and then suddenly switched to 4.1. Big contrast. Say you've used 3.5 for more than a year and suddenly switch to 4.1. Features and stability are still not up to par with the rock-solid 3.5 builds. It's all about perspective I suppose. It is worth mentioning that cbhacking is correct, though. In terms of features and usability, 4.2 is a huge step forward with 4.3 hopefully surpassing it and coming closer to 3.5.

Re:KDE 4 looks promising (2, Informative)

QCompson (675963) | more than 4 years ago | (#28204739)

No. When people were complaining about what a trainwreck 4.0 was, the KDE team claimed that 4.1 would be the release that is ready for users. Then, when 4.1 was released, the KDE team claimed that 4.2 would be the release that is ready for users.

Re:KDE 4 looks promising (1)

SomeKDEUser (1243392) | more than 4 years ago | (#28206187)

See, "ready for users" is undefined. For me, KDE trunk is ready for me, and Vista is not.

For many people it is the reverse.

For me OSX is not ready: the dev tools it bundles are basically a joke, and the WM sucks. But many people find it the ultimate user experience.

4.0 was not a user release, but 4.1 was. Imperfect, yes, but better than 3.5 in some aspects, and worse in others. 4.2 was pretty much on par, with some things much better, and some missing pieces -- which you might miss and I don't, or the reverse.

4.3 is basically better than 3.5 in almost all respects. Surely a couple things are missing that I have not noticed. And no doubts there will be trolls arguing that "OMG I cannot independently configure the transparency gradient of all plasma widgets! This is a deal breaker for me, I go back to gnome" -- incidentally, you can, but you need to draw you own theme ;)

And the apps are almost all there, I am still missing the tellico port, but it is advancing fast.

Re:KDE 4 looks promising (1)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 4 years ago | (#28206465)

See, "ready for users" is undefined.

I would define it pretty clearly:

If it worked in KDE3, it must work in KDE4. It must either be obvious how to do this, or it must be in a FAQ somewhere.

better than 3.5 in some aspects, and worse in others.

Like having no bluetooth. The ways in which it was better are irrelevant when you're missing basic functionality like my fucking mouse.

4.2 was pretty much on par, with some things much better, and some missing pieces

Missing pieces like WPA support.

The things that are much better are, honestly, things I can live without. They're cool, they make me more productive, but I can live without them.

I cannot live without such obscure things as working wireless.

The things that keep getting dropped on the floor are not obscure, they are major pieces of functionality that you could not sell a computer, regardless of OS, without some support for.

4.3 is basically better than 3.5 in almost all respects.

It damn well better be.

Because frankly, this is like XP vs Vista. When Vista was in beta testing, the apologists said, "It's a beta! Expect it to be broken!" When it was released, they said, "Everyone knows you don't buy MS software until SP1!" Well, Vista SP2 is out, and many people seem convinced it's on par with XP in most ways.

The fact that KDE4 is behind Vista is just really fucking sad, and I want to like KDE.

Giant disclaimer: I run Kubuntu, which is widely acknowledged by the KDE people as being the worst KDE-based distro ever. It's served me well in the 3.x line, but for some reason, the 4.x releases have just pulled random experimental nightly builds, incorporated them into the release...

I mean, the bluetooth issue was known about, and they put it as a "known issue", and went ahead and released, and didn't fix it for at least, oh, two months. WTF?

To anyone who hasn't tried KDE4: Don't. Wait for 4.3, maybe it'll be ready then. Or use a distro other than Ubuntu, but expect large things to break.

Promising? Yes. Usable? not really (2, Interesting)

an.echte.trilingue (1063180) | more than 4 years ago | (#28206635)

KDE 4.2 is perfectly usable.

You seem to have a different definition of usable than I do.

  1. (s)ftp is broken in kde file browsers (dolphin, konqueror). I can load the root directory listing, but not download any files or change directories. Have to use filezilla or something.
  2. Similarly, the integrated text editors will not save over an ftp connection. Very annoying.
  3. SMB shares: when you refresh on a passwordless windows share in Konqueror or Dolphin, you get an authentication failure that lasts for the session.
  4. The fish plugin for ssh in konqueror seems broken, although I did not take the time to investigate so it might be a simple config error.
  5. Network configuration does not work for wifi connections secured with WPA-EAP/TTLS encryption. You have to edit the config by hand.
  6. This is more of a gripe: klipper is truly black magic that I cannot for the life of me figure out. Copy-Paste should not be this complicated.

Except for number 3, this all works fine in KDE 3.5. It all works fine in Gnome (same machine).

I like KDE4.2, it has a lot of really promising concepts. I am a big fan of the plasma widget desktop. I use it whenever possible, which is why I can actually tell you some of the bugs. But interesting concepts are not enough. For a lot of my work, I simply have to log out and log into KDE 3.5 or Gnome. I am using KDE on two machines, one is debian and the other is kubuntu, so the problem might be in debian's packages.

Re:KDE 4 looks promising (2, Interesting)

Ruie (30480) | more than 4 years ago | (#28206837)

KDE 4.2 is usable, but not perfectly.

No kprinter, does not see my shared cups printer (previous version worked ok), dolphin instead of konqueror, middle click is broken in konqueror when browsing files (used to open in a standlane application), no kasbar, start menu does not add newly installed programs without restart.

This is on a system that I only use occasionally.

Good work, but it is not 3.5 yet.

Re:KDE 4 looks promising (1)

BatsShadow2 (1476627) | more than 4 years ago | (#28203483)

My Kubuntu 8.04 is getting kinda long in the tooth, but the newer ones don't work at all, unless someone knows of a KDE 3.59 or 3.60 backport -- that'd be sweet.

I can't claim that KDE 4.2 actually works, but I do know that Kubuntu is an atrocious implementation of KDE. I've been considering giving another distro a chance to try out KDE4, maybe SUSE or Mandriva.

Re:KDE 4 looks promising (1)

PvtVoid (1252388) | more than 4 years ago | (#28205167)

I can't claim that KDE 4.2 actually works, but I do know that Kubuntu is an atrocious implementation of KDE. I've been considering giving another distro a chance to try out KDE4, maybe SUSE or Mandriva. quote. Good point. I understand the Gentoo devs are rumored to be planning release a 4.2 overlay in early 2011.

Re:KDE 4 looks promising (1)

erayd (1131355) | more than 4 years ago | (#28205937)

KDE-4.2 has been in the gentoo tree for ages - if you want it, just make sure you're running ~arch, or unmask it.

Re:KDE 4 looks promising (1)

pseudonomous (1389971) | more than 4 years ago | (#28205903)

I would have to say the best KDE experiance I had was with the old kde3 based kdemod on Arch Linux.  But the KDE4 based kdemod was pretty nice too.

Unfortunately, thanks to how much ATI graphics drivers suck, I'm on Kubuntu right now, and 9.04 seems to actually be fairly good.

I must say, I really like the "screen-profiles" package they shipped (of course this wasn't kde specific),  on the other hand, memory usage is through the roof, like 2500 M with firefox (4 tabs) + kmail + Amarok + Whatever automatically starts up after KDE login.  Luckily, on my desktop I've gone tons of memory, but there's no way I could use Kubuntu on the netbook which I ordered from Dell a while ago (it's taking a ridulous amount of time to ship .. oh well) ... so actually:

- Does anybody know of a good netbook-oriented distro that is KDE-centric?
- How about XFCE-centric? (XFCE is my fallback for systems that can't handle KDE, I actually like the new 4.6 quite a bit)

If not I guess I can get used to GNOME again.

Re:KDE 4 looks promising (1)

KozmoStevnNaut (630146) | more than 4 years ago | (#28206607)

For XFCE-centric distros, Xubuntu is quite nice and well-integrated. I used to run it on my Eee 701 and it did pretty well with the Eee kernel repository I found through Eeeuser.com.

But I have to say that compared to the Arch Linux I put on it last week, Xubuntu is really rather slow in comparison. Arch has an Eee kernel repository, too, but even without it most things work pretty much out of the box on Arch.

Re:KDE 4 looks promising (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28206891)

I must say, I really like the "screen-profiles" package they shipped (of course this wasn't kde specific), on the other hand, memory usage is through the roof, like 2500 M with firefox (4 tabs) + kmail + Amarok + Whatever automatically starts up after KDE login. Luckily, on my desktop I've gone tons of memory, but there's no way I could use Kubuntu on the netbook which I ordered from Dell a while ago (it's taking a ridulous amount of time to ship .. oh well) ... so actually:

Surprise, you have tons of memory thats why KDE uses 2500M! It tries to make use of the free memory.

And with same applications , on my machine with 1GB RAM, it uses only around 500-600 MB.

Re:KDE 4 looks promising (1)

PouletFou (1221320) | more than 4 years ago | (#28205537)

Can you specify what in KDE 4.2 doesn't work at all? I've been a KDE user for years, kept KDE 3.5 on my laptop while switching to gnome on the desktop until kubuntu 9.04 and I honestly find KDE 4.2.2 very impressive and efficient.

Re:KDE 4 looks promising (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28206201)

I gave KDE4.1 a try out and like you I found it not ready for serious use.

However I am presently running Debian Testing and they went to KDE4.2 a couple of weeks ago, and it is very smooth. In fact I am delighted and I am finding it much better.

I am in the midst of completing my hons. degree project and KDE4.2 is helping me a lot especially using Okular to work with pdf files.

Sig version 4.2

A bad copy... (-1, Troll)

siyavash (677724) | more than 4 years ago | (#28201567)

Is it just me or is this a bad copy of many different GUIs? I see these in there : iTunes, OSX, Windows Vista, Windows 7, a little Amiga OS. I don't like it, I don't like it at all. There is a reason Lunix ( I know, I say Lunix to make fanboys angry ) kept its HUGE marketshare ( below 1% ) for the past 15 years and the reason is simple : Copying instead of originality. Call me crazy, people who support this way are all morons.

You will flame me for this. You will mod me down for sure to shut me up but the facts remains and the history speaks for itself. Not even could Lunix take a good share of "Netbooks"' marketshare. The Lunix world is so messy, so unorganized, so unoriginal, so "super elitist" that even when it's free, customers want Windows.

Say what you want, but Windows 7 is an absolute great OS with a really developed and mature GUI. With Windows gettings stable and super secure since the past 2-3 years, what argument ( other than price ) has Lunix left? Not a damn thing!

And price isn't an issue for 90% of the customers, I mean say you upgrade each 3 years ( Windows "normal" cycle ), OEM copy costs around say $100, devide $100 into 3 years and you got the cost of Windows down to what, $3 a month. The question is, ARE YOU COMPLETELY INSANE? IS THAT THE BEST ARGUMENT THIS COMMUNITY HAVE TO FORCE LUNIX DOWN PEOPLES' THROATS? Oh yeah, very good, you'll save $3 a month! AND most of your hardware won't work, you can't do much gaming either, and forget simplicity. You will have to bow down and litterally beg to the "RTFM noob" community for some small help which usually gets you banned. ( I personally got banned from a #Linux room because I said I work with "closed source" software, go figure. ) and you get to waste hours and hours of your life trying to figure out how to get your printer, webcam work.

On top of that, you get to use old looking poor man's CRAP like Open Office, bloody hell, give me a break. Open your eyes and take a look at that beautiful GUI of Office 2007.

If you can not cough up $3 a month, the cost of Windows is most likely not your biggest issue.

The cost argument is ofcourse just one of them but a valid void one.

Bottom line is, Windows might be a closed source OS but is actually VERY open. VERY organized. GREAT support and GREAT community. 1000000000000s of applications, 100000000000s of games. Secure, Fast, Stable, SIMPLE, Click click click and you are done! You have had your head in the sand for too long, Microsoft DOES actually listen to its customers instead of telling them "RTFM noob". Surely they copy too from time to time but they alter it until it is actually GOOD, they also PAY for it.

You are all fools but don't get me wrong! I love it. I love the way you are and I hope you keep it that way, it'll make sure that Windows dominate the OS market for another 20-30 years to come. By that time, if I am still alive, I'll be retired and won't give a flying fuck about any OS. :)

Re:A bad copy... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28201661)

Nice troll.

The Fundamental Fatal Flaw Of Desktop Linux (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28201857)

Disparate people/teams all working in isolation with no single controlling authority to enforce a consistent UI over the entire system.

So you have Idea/Concept 1 and 2 that are both great in isolation but when thrown together they make no sense. Everyone dumps their own pet favorite UI ideas into the mix and you get one big mess.

And anyone who dares to question the fatal flaw gets modded as a -1 Troll and a heretic and unbeliever to the 'wonder that is Linux on the desktop'

And that is why Android is exploding onto Cellphones and Netbooks while standard Linux has gotten whipped right out of the market by Microsoft.

Re:The Fundamental Fatal Flaw Of Desktop Linux (0)

BitZtream (692029) | more than 4 years ago | (#28202017)

DING DING DING DING, give this guy a cookie for hitting the nail on the head.

Re:The Fundamental Fatal Flaw Of Desktop Linux (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28202915)

I'd put it this way (and read this carefully)

Desktop Linux's problems are:
* Audio APIs and drivers.
* Graphics card drivers, and X11.

The theme here is is obscure 80's style C APIs. This leads to uncertainties and inconsistencies in stuff build on top of them and ultimately in a sort of wonky user experience. Most users have no idea what the problem is, and so can not complain about it, but they feel it.
To make matters worse, the general confusion about the low level APIs makes people want to make wrappers for them, but they only inherit the problems although they might obscure them.

People keep reinventing the "UI wheel" because they feel that something is wrong and want to fix it, but what they really need to fix is X11.

We get new audio wrapper APIs every year, but what they all really want to fix is ALSA.

This is a danger in the open development model. While it mostly fosters the gradual improvment of code quality, it can sometimes also encourage the wrapping of turds over and over.

Re:The Fundamental Fatal Flaw Of Desktop Linux (1)

Alex Belits (437) | more than 4 years ago | (#28205469)

Desktop Linux's problems are:
* Audio APIs and drivers.
* Graphics card drivers, and X11.

Microsoft marketdroids' standard talking points detected.

The theme here is is obscure 80's style C APIs

Do you, by any chance, know, where FindFirstFile() and FindNextFile() in your beloved Windows come from?

CP/M. And it was a stupid design in 80's just like it's a stupid design now.

Re:The Fundamental Fatal Flaw Of Desktop Linux (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28206615)

It's OK. ATI are bringing out a card [slashdot.org] that can do X11.

Re:The Fundamental Fatal Flaw Of Desktop Linux (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28202235)

And that is why Android is exploding onto Cellphones and Netbooks while standard Linux has gotten whipped right out of the market by Microsoft.

Ah... you do not know that Android is powered by that same "standard Linux" OS than desktop systems. It just includes few modifications so it would not run straight all linux binaries.

It is just stupid to say that Android ain't Linux.

Re:The Fundamental Fatal Flaw Of Desktop Linux (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28202737)

Nobody said android ain't linux. Just that Android does have consistancy.

Re:The Fundamental Fatal Flaw Of Desktop Linux (1)

dmbasso (1052166) | more than 4 years ago | (#28202625)

Well, I'm pretty happy with my netbook with Ubuntu Netbook Remix. I couldn't care less for Microsoft and whatever.

Re:The Fundamental Fatal Flaw Of Desktop Linux (1)

Skylinux (942824) | more than 4 years ago | (#28203085)

please mod parent down -1 heretic :)

But seriously he is somewhat correct BUT I don't want to see every Desktop app to turn into some MS Windows copy.
I want my "advanced computer user OS" and not grandma's OS and this is why I use Linux. Linux is advanced software, it allows me to do things Windows users don't even understand or don't know it can be done.
I choose my Linux distribution because it is not the "I'll hold your hand all the way" software and the less computer savvy individual can use something like *buntu.

We do need a basic plan to allow manufactures to write software for our OS without writing separate version for every distro out there but let's not turn Linux into Windows, PLEASE!

Re:The Fundamental Fatal Flaw Of Desktop Linux (2, Insightful)

Kjella (173770) | more than 4 years ago | (#28204961)

But seriously he is somewhat correct BUT I don't want to see every Desktop app to turn into some MS Windows copy. I want my "advanced computer user OS" and not grandma's OS and this is why I use Linux. Linux is advanced software, it allows me to do things Windows users don't even understand or don't know it can be done. I choose my Linux distribution because it is not the "I'll hold your hand all the way" software and the less computer savvy individual can use something like *buntu.

This statement is just fucked up on so many levels, why on earth do you need a different distro to run different software? On Windows everything from MS Paint to Adobe Photoshop CS4 runs fine on the same machine, both individually and in parallel. Is that not true on Linux? Ok, so you can have some special needs for some special app, that's what /usr/local is for. But like "I'm so special on everything that my computer isn't usable withoue USE flags" attitude is just bullshit. I bet there's people on *buntu that run circles around your self-claimed geek skillz. Nobody's killed if wifi and wep/wpa, bluetooth, sleep/resume and whatever else is bothering users these days "Just work(tm)" without fiddling with arcane incantations, and *buntu tends to suck less than the others if not by a large margin. Even if people managed to agree on what should be in a dumbed down interface, you can bet they'll leave the full one in there or be flamed for all eternity. Well, except maybe the Gnome developers that seem to enjoy the gconf flames. I've been with *buntu now for a while, been testing it even longer and I can assure you there's no reason to believe it'll ever be reduced to a playtoy.

Re:The Fundamental Fatal Flaw Of Desktop Linux (1)

serviscope_minor (664417) | more than 4 years ago | (#28206765)

This statement is just fucked up on so many levels,

Touche.

On Windows everything from MS Paint to Adobe Photoshop CS4 runs fine on the same machine, both individually and in parallel. Is that not true on Linux?

Since those are windows specific apps, I suspect not. Not that I care, since I don't want either of them.

Ok, so you can have some special needs for some special app, that's what /usr/local is for. But like "I'm so special on everything that my computer isn't usable withoue USE flags" attitude is just bullshit. I bet there's people on *buntu that run circles around your self-claimed geek skillz. Nobody's killed if wifi and wep/wpa, bluetooth, sleep/resume and whatever else is bothering users these days "Just work(tm)" without fiddling with arcane incantations, and *buntu tends to suck less than the others if not by a large margin.

That's a kind of incoherent rant. In your words: But like "a computer is just a tool, don't try to understand it" attitude is just bullshit. What on earth is wrong with running a distro that makes its operation more understandable. Ububtu is huge, complex and in some cases rather poorly bodged together. That can make it hard to work with.

And you know what, nobody is killed by me understanding how wifi works on my computer.

I've been with *buntu now for a while, been testing it even longer and I can assure you there's no reason to believe it'll ever be reduced to a playtoy.

It's generally OK, except for all the nastyness of GNOME, all the OS integration that requires, the assumption that if you're not running gnome or KDE, you don't want anything to work properly, the bizarre obsession with micro-packaging and a few other oddments. But it is quite useable, certainly more so than operating systems from some other notable vendors.

I anfd apparently others have other tastes. Why do you find that hard to accept.

Re:The Fundamental Fatal Flaw Of Desktop Linux (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28204427)

You must still be in school to think the real corporate world is comprised of teams pulling for the same goal. Managers have opinions, agendas, budgets to grow, personal aspirations and animosities. It's hardly an atmosphere guaranteeing the best possible solution to a problem. Can you say 'Vista'? Or 'GM'? I find the XP desktop almost intolerable, though great perhaps for the lowest common denominator user it targets. Lucky you.

Re:The Fundamental Fatal Flaw Of Desktop Linux (3, Insightful)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 4 years ago | (#28206501)

Disparate people/teams all working in isolation with no single controlling authority to enforce a consistent UI over the entire system.

No such single controlling entity exists which enforces a consistent UI over any desktop system.

Play with Windows for a bit. There's the standard way you're supposed to do things, and then there's the IE7/8 way, and then there's the Office "Ribbon" way (which is implemented several ways in several different apps), and then there's the iTunes "let's make it look OSX-y" way...

Or OS X. Mac users seem to be under some really weird illusion that X programs make the system inconsistent, when even among recent apps, you have one aqua-ish look, and one chrome/steel-ish look.

I could go on...

So you have Idea/Concept 1 and 2 that are both great in isolation but when thrown together they make no sense. Everyone dumps their own pet favorite UI ideas into the mix and you get one big mess.

A mess which somehow works everywhere else, but when it comes to Desktop Linux, this is the reason people ditch it.

Not lack of drivers. Not lack of application support. Not lack of vendor support, or of preinstalled options. Not sheer FUD about new things.

No, it's the lack of a consistent UI that's the problem.

And anyone who dares to question the fatal flaw gets modded as a -1 Troll and a heretic and unbeliever

Or as someone who brings up a tired old troll which has been discounted time and time again.

And that is why Android is exploding onto Cellphones and Netbooks

"Exploding"? Really?

How's it doing compared to the iPhone?

No, Android has exactly the same "controlling authority" as everything else. That is, it doesn't -- as soon as you install a third-party app, you get whatever you get.

while standard Linux has gotten whipped right out of the market by Microsoft.

Desktop Linux was ever in a position to be "whipped out of the market" by Microsoft? News to me.

No, Microsoft has always dominated the desktop market. Linux and OS X both seem to be growing lately, but not fast enough to make a real dent.

But at the moment, Microsoft dominates the market mostly because Microsoft dominates the market.

Re:A bad copy... (1)

kimvette (919543) | more than 4 years ago | (#28202373)

$3.00 per month for Windows + $3.00 per month for antivirus + $6.00 per month for office suite + $18.00 per month for enterprise-quality image/illustration editing suite adds up quickly. Linux gives you all that and more for free - or for $3.00 per month (by your metric) if you buy the distro to support its continued development/maintenance.

Is it just me... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28201575)

...or do both KDE and Gnome seem to be headed in the wrong direction so far as features go? KDE threw out a ton of useful features with the 4.x series and managed to screw up the file manager to boot (even Konquerer 4 isn't good compared to its predecessor). And now it seems Gnome's decided to throw its current GUI paradigm out the window for 3.x and replace it with this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcpndKUx4pc . At this rate, XFCE may end up being the only sane major DE left... then again, there's always LXDE, with a bit of polish, it'd do pretty well.

Re:Is it just me... (2, Insightful)

piojo (995934) | more than 4 years ago | (#28202481)

AmaroK (a KDE audio player) made some questionable UI design decisions in the recent versions. I sometimes worry that with the goal of making Linux "easy for my grandmother to use", the actual users are left behind.

There will always be good software available. If Ubuntu swallows the Linux world, people that want something different can install BSD or opensolaris.

Re:Is it just me... (1)

fwarren (579763) | more than 4 years ago | (#28206101)

Also there is currently no support for visualizations. So good-bye milkdrop. As near as i can tell. The only way to get anything to that can run Milkdrop on Jaunty is to load xbmc.

Re:Is it just me... (1)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 4 years ago | (#28206531)

Also, no support for transcoding in the latest version.

They basically adopted KDE4's philosophy: "Let's break everything, release it as a dot-oh release, add some sexy new features (without fixing the old ones), and blame users for upgrading when stuff doesn't work!" ...only, more so.

There is currently no one version of AmaroK which does everything I want. There are two versions, each of which does a different thing that I want. And they refuse to fix the old version, because they're too busy on the new one...

Re:Is it just me... (1)

Homburg (213427) | more than 4 years ago | (#28205535)

GNOME isn't "throwing it's current GUI paradigm out of the window for 3.x"; the slogan is "GNOME 3.0 = GNOME 2.30"; that is, more of an incremental improvement than a radical change. Indeed, the big target for GNOME 3.0 seems to be cleaning up the use of various deprecated parts of the API (like the bonobo component system). GNOME Shell, from your youtube link, is an interesting integration of the window manager and the window switcher, but I don't know that it counts as a completely new GUI paradigm.

I just tried KDE 4.1 (-1, Offtopic)

caluml (551744) | more than 4 years ago | (#28201805)

This is quite interesting, as I just 2 days ago install kubuntu-desktop from my 8.10 Ubuntu laptop (Acer 5720).

It looks fine, after you've removed the stupid Postit notes on the screen, and Konqueror as the browser, etc, etc. But it runs like a dog. I can't even play a vid in mplayer without the sound and video skipping, whereas it's fine in Gnome. xorg process runs at 40-60% in KDE 4.1. Apparently, other people have problems with the Intel graphics card that I've got and KDE.

Verdict: Looks nice, but runs too slowly. Shame cos I have always liked KDE < 4. Aah well, I'll try it again in a year.

Re:I just tried KDE 4.1 (5, Interesting)

yet-another-lobbyist (1276848) | more than 4 years ago | (#28202051)

I had HUGE issues with KDE 4.1 myself. It might be worth trying to switch off desktop effects. In my case, however, even that did not solve all the performance issues.
The big change came with KDE 4.2. Things really became very smooth and fast and rock solid. If you are planning to upgrade to jaunty, I would definitely recommend trying it. (If I remember correctly, there is also a way to run 4.2 on kubuntu 8.10 -- I think I did this for a while.)

Re:I just tried KDE 4.1 (1)

PvtVoid (1252388) | more than 4 years ago | (#28202281)

I speak as a long-time KDE fan. Simply based on my own experience, I would not recommend upgrading to Kubuntu Jaunty. Kubuntu Intrepid sucked. It looked great, but was buggy as hell, not to mention insanely slow on Nvidia cards. It sucked on every box I put it on. Jaunty didn't work at all for me. That was the last straw. If KDE 4.2.4 is the ultimate, then I'm glad I decided to migrate to Gnome. They really screwed the pooch with KDE 4.

4.2 is a grea release: its a good upgrade from 3.5 (3, Interesting)

jaymz2k4 (790806) | more than 4 years ago | (#28203199)

As a long term KDE user (since the very first version) I have found 3.5 to be a great release. It's still what I'm running on my work desktop. I have to say, installing 4.0 at home was a mistake. It definitly put me off upgrading my work machine. The 4.0 release basically rendered my home environment as almost unusable. On top of that the semi-upgrade made the 3.5 install messed up, so I was pretty pissed.

When 4.1 came out I was fairly happy with the stability, a lot of little issues (things like the taskbar resizing) had been worked out but it still felt somewhat unfinished. Now, having upgraded to 4.2 I have to say I'm really impressed. I wasn't expecting the change to be as full as it was, 4.2 feels much more complete and definitely is the upgrade path you want to follow from 3.5 if your a KDE user. Things like the windowing effects work much better, the plasma desktop has reached a level that is usable all the time and the level of integration has improved a lot (checkboxes finally render properly when clicked in firefox for one, dolphin is getting pretty damn good and okular is great). KDE is at the point where I'm now planning on an upgrade at work.

I have to agree a bit with some of the UI criticism of amarok, I found the jump to version 2 pretty dramatic. It's almost like a whole new app but I'm giving it a good go for a while. The last media player I really used before amarok was xmms. But yeah, bottom line, two thumbs up for 4.2

KDE4: still beta after all these years (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28203411)

I'm also a long term KDE user since the day I first switched to KDE from fvwm2 WAAAY back in the day.

And oddly enough I've had pretty much the dead opposite experiences with KDE4. The whole series, starting with the 4.0 release and right up to present, has been rock solid and reasonably responsive. My guess is that I must have lucked out with my video card, as much as people were complaining about driver compatibility issues.

But the thing is just terribly, terribly unfinished. Missing features here, blatant oversights there. The flash-to-polish ratio is still very high, which means I like it for the first few days and then by the end of the week I've already switched back to 3.x.

I have high hopes for 4.3. But then I also had high hopes for 4.0, then 4.1, then 4.2...

Re:4.2 is a grea release: its a good upgrade from (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28204541)

Take into account that there are only a couple of distros that still ship kde 3.5. It's about time for kde 4 to become a decent upgrade, but it's just too late. The old argument, why upgrade when you can still use kde 3.x just doesn't hold water.

Re:4.2 is a grea release: its a good upgrade from (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28205271)

The old argument, why upgrade when you can still use kde 3.x just doesn't hold water

Sure it does. If the distro only has KDE4, and KDE4 is still not usable, don't use the distro. Simple.

Looks like I'm sticking with openSUSE 11.1 until then.

Re:I just tried KDE 4.1 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28204691)

Rock solid as in tossing up kdeinit errors whenever I try to launch more than one instance of konsole? Smooth as in still not having simple video thumbnails in dolphin/konqueror?

The KDE team is too busy trying to dream up new ways to make their desktop annoying (more eyecandy, more, more!) to fix longstanding bugs. And yes yes, I know that in opensource people work on what they want to work on, etc, but it doesn't change the fact that the KDE4 series is a slow buggy piece of garbage.

Aaron Siego ran KDE into the ground.

Re:I just tried KDE 4.1 (4, Informative)

cbhacking (979169) | more than 4 years ago | (#28202213)

4.1 isn't even close to 4.2. You might as well compare a beta to a release version (think of it this way - 4.0 was the tech preview, incomplete and buggy but with APIs in place. 4.1 is the beta - many of the features but not all, and still buggy. 4.2 is release, with bugs fixed and features in place).

You'd think that talking about 4.1 in an article about 4.2.4 would be obviously absurd, but apparently not...

Re:I just tried KDE 4.1 (1)

QCompson (675963) | more than 4 years ago | (#28204699)

4.1 isn't even close to 4.2. You might as well compare a beta to a release version (think of it this way - 4.0 was the tech preview, incomplete and buggy but with APIs in place. 4.1 is the beta - many of the features but not all, and still buggy. 4.2 is release, with bugs fixed and features in place). You'd think that talking about 4.1 in an article about 4.2.4 would be obviously absurd, but apparently not...

It's a real shame there is no way to label software releases as "tech previews", "release candidates", or "betas". Oh well, I guess we'll just have to stick with generic number releases and let users find out what they've installed after the fact.

Re:I just tried KDE 4.1 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28204891)

That is just plain bullocks. The developers have come out practically every occasion and said it will not be everyday usable at least until 4.2. This ha been stated in practically every article posted on slashdot and as been pointed out numerous times in the discussion forums. It is also why it has never been the default desktop on any Distro and is only now starting to gain traction. This is a nonissue.

Re:I just tried KDE 4.1 (1)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 4 years ago | (#28206545)

Um, no, they said it'd be usable on 4.1. They only started saying this about 4.2 when it became obvious how much 4.1 sucks.

And would it have been so hard to just label it 4.0 beta?

Re:I just tried KDE 4.1 (1)

cbhacking (979169) | more than 4 years ago | (#28206095)

Yeah, the KDE developers (rightfully) caught a lot of crap for this. I can see their point of view leaving KDE4 as a pre-release until 4.2's release would have been a LONG development cycle - but it cost them (the devs) a lot of reputation. Personally, I don't really care about their rep, but then, I don't write KDE, I just use it. What really bothers me is that it cost KDE, as a desktop environment, a lot of its reputation too. KDE 4.0 / 4.1 made Vista look snappy and bug-free by comparison, and now KDE has to win back a lot of its old users. A shame, really.

Re:I just tried KDE 4.1 (1)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 4 years ago | (#28206577)

You're right, 4.0 was the tech preview -- the alpha.

4.1 was maybe beta quality

4.2 might count as a release candidate, but with no WPA, it sure as hell wasn't a release.

4.3 looks promising. But so did 4.0, 4.1, and 4.2.

These people really need to grow up and start calling them betas -- or take a clue from Linux, establish an obvious convention (odd numbers are unstable; don't use 2.5 until we release it as 2.6), stick to it, and clearly label it a Developer Preview.

I'm really starting to wonder if they'll make it to the level of functionality 3.5 had by the time they hit 4.5.

Bad idea! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28205089)

I tried KDE4.1 and it gave me AIDS. Luckily I bought this wolf t-shirt [birkoph.com] , which cured me, and KDE4.2 doesn't contain any sexually transmitted diseases. Which is nice.

How about KDE 4.3? (2, Interesting)

yet-another-lobbyist (1276848) | more than 4 years ago | (#28201989)

" ... this is the end of the KDE 4.2 line, which means for distros based on long-term support, it might be the thing to get used to for a while. "

Are you expecting KDE 4.3 to be so buggy that it is going to be uninteresting for long term support projects? In the past, there were huge leaps of progress from KDE 4.0 to KDE 4.1 to KDE 4.2!

Re:How about KDE 4.3? (1)

compro01 (777531) | more than 4 years ago | (#28203339)

I think the "get used to it" is referring any LTS releases between now and whenever 4.3 is released, as IIRC, the next release of Ubuntu in October will be an LTS.

I'll switch to KDE 4.x when Debian stable has it. (2, Insightful)

pecosdave (536896) | more than 4 years ago | (#28202161)

Yes, I know I can use the backport [debian.net] , but forget it, last time I messed with KDE 4 (on Kubuntu) I found it was still lacking in a lot of really cool utilities KDE 3.x had and I'm just to lazy to recompile all the 3.x versions onto 4 myself. I guess I really have lost some drive as I've gotten older, I'll let someone else do it for me, and when they do I'll use it, and until the 3.5x is good enough.

BTW - kaudiocreator was near the top of that list, that was a stupid easy and useful program. Yes, I can do it other ways, and did for a while, but I kind of liked that one. Oddly, the change in interface was fine, I liked it, KDE4.x and I can get along fine, as soon as the utilities catch up.

Re:I'll switch to KDE 4.x when Debian stable has i (2, Informative)

cbhacking (979169) | more than 4 years ago | (#28206053)

By 4.2, nearly all KDE utilities and applications have been ported, and as of 4.2.3 nearly all the noticeable bugs were worked out (it worked better than 3.5.9, the last 3.x I used). Don't assume anything about 4.2 based on 4.1 or 4.0; both of those were released before they should have been,a dn should have been considered more like a tech/API preview (4.0) and early beta of a finished version (4.1). Frankly, they both sucked, and it has cost KDE a lot of reputation, but 4.2 is solid. It's what 4.x should have been from the beginning.

In other words, give 4.2 (or later) a try; they finally lived up to the promise of the earlier versions, plus the apps you're used to have all been ported now.

What's wrong with that? (1)

backwardMechanic (959818) | more than 4 years ago | (#28206855)

If you're running Deb stable, and want to use your computer rather than mess with it, that's exactly the right thing to do. Kinda why Debian stable was invented really.

Is Konsole fixed or forever broken? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28203805)

Is Konsole finally able to remember custom profile menu visibility settings again? It's not fun checking the 'Show in Menu' checkbox for all of my profiles every time I boot.

Re:Is Konsole fixed or forever broken? (1)

Saija (1114681) | more than 4 years ago | (#28204055)

my problem with konsole is that every time i run it, it freezes to death, almost 2-3 minutes being unresponsive, thats why i use the xfce console application in kde4 when i logon in that DE, btw i run xfce/fluxbox 90% now thanks to a broken kde4.1-4.2 past experience.

The same old question applies ... (2, Interesting)

VincenzoRomano (881055) | more than 4 years ago | (#28205967)

... as versions go by ...
How does this version compares to v3.5.10 as far as features and stability?
I'm still waiting to replace my ol' KDE v3 without harming my everyday work!

Re:The same old question applies ... (2, Informative)

cbhacking (979169) | more than 4 years ago | (#28206073)

I would say stability is a step up; KDE itself I've never had crash, but I get fewer application crashes in 4.2.x (4.2.3 on my current system, I'll upgrade shortly) than I did in 3.5.9 (didn't try .10).
Features are a little harder, but I'd call that an improvement too. The desktop is nicer but... different. Tinker with it a little and I think you'll like it better, but it has changed. Most applicaitons have been ported across pretty straight, with the same features as before, but a few have had significant changes (Amarok), a few have only been developed on 4.x for a while now and have significantly newer versions there (though only incremental changes), and a few might not be fully ported yet.

Mostly trivial, but my favorite new 4.2 feature, small though it is: Konqueror now has an option to close a tab when you middle-click it (like EVER OTHER TABBED BROWSER IN EXISTENCE) which fixes one of what I found to be its biggest usablity quirks.

Re:The same old question applies ... (1)

VincenzoRomano (881055) | more than 4 years ago | (#28206171)

I got disappointed by things like NetworkManager applet not working at all, KDEBluetooth not working at all and so on.
As I used to use my Linux PC for everyday usage, I cannot afford a test-and-try approach (with expensive rollacks)!
Now I run GNOME, with fewer features but more stability as my Ubuntu distribution progresses ...
Again, my fear is that these KDE v4 releases are more like "interim releases" or betas than actual releases!

Still f*cked Up (1)

Delifisek (190943) | more than 4 years ago | (#28206543)

Sorry KDE Guys.

After 3 try (4.0. 4.1 4.2) I still not be able to work with dual monitors.

Re:Still f*cked Up (2, Informative)

serviscope_minor (664417) | more than 4 years ago | (#28206713)

Sorry KDE Guys.

After 3 try (4.0. 4.1 4.2) I still not be able to work with dual monitors.

How is that KDE's fault? Try getting a better supported (ie intel, sadly) graphics card. Then multi monitor setups work beautifully.

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