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First Look At Visual Studio 2010 Beta 1

ScuttleMonkey posted more than 5 years ago | from the you-mean-there-are-people-who-don't-use-vi? dept.

Microsoft 236

snydeq writes "InfoWorld's Martin Heller takes VS2010 Beta 1 for a test drive and finds the upgrade promising, particularly with regard to improved thread debugging and a revamped UI. But the biggest enhancements have to do with parallel programming, Heller writes. 'I'm not sure that I've completely grasped the power of the new .Net Framework and native C++ support for task and data parallelism in VS2010, but what I've seen so far is impressive.' Heller points to intriguing parallel programming samples posted to CodePlex and offers numerous screenshots of VS2010 Beta 1 functionality. He also notes that the beta still lacks support for ASP.Net MVC, smart devices, and the .Net Micro Framework."

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oh (-1, Flamebait)

KingPin27 (1290730) | more than 5 years ago | (#28227647)

He also notes that the beta still lacks support for ASP.Net MVC, smart devices, and the .Net Micro Framework.

So what does it do then, exactly??

Re:oh (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28227657)

The same thing all MS software does of course...

Re:oh (1)

whitefang1121 (1432411) | more than 5 years ago | (#28227671)

So then nothing!

Re:oh (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28227841)

Christ, I love Greek! Women just don't seem to understand that a
man can find just as much pleasure in the warm confines of a well-
muscled ass as they can in the satin embrace of a well-wetted
cunt. Maybe we men have conditioned them too well to ignoring one
hole for the other: nonetheless, every man I've talked to about it
loves Greek and every woman who I've talked to about it has been
less than enthusiastic. So imagine my surprise last weekend when
Ophelia treated me to the joys of anal sex in what must be the
first time in five or six years.

The night started our strangely. Ophelia had just finished re-
arranging her large library and was exhausted. As suits my
biological clock, I was just coming awake at 10 PM when she was
turning in. She invited me to bed and I politely declined: I was
horny as usual and told her I'd keep her awake. After a couple of
more requests from her, I stripped and crawled in beside her.
Ophelia loves to snuggle and wasted no time in curling her small
body up next to mine. I turned and kissed her. She was oddly
responsive for her tired state, and teased me with a hint of
tongue in her kisses. I reached down to feel her muff and found
it just beginning to rev as her right hand slipped down her belly
to her clit.

I took up what has become my customary position between her legs -
kneeling and using my cock as a sex toy to tickle her lower labia
and the entrance to her cunt. But this time I let my aim wander
lower to the wonderful curve where ass, crotch, and leg meet. I
rubbed my cock against this soft crescent and expanded the stroke
to brush against the entrance to her ass. I noticed that every
time that my prick touched her rosebud, her strokes on her clit
quickened. It wasn't long before I was pressing the tip of my
cock against her asshole.

Surprise! My cock slipped easily into her ass until the entire
head was buried inside, and just as I was about to pull out and
apoligize, she handed me a bottle of sex lubricant and said "What
the fuck? Why not?". I pulled back and poured the lubricant on
my hard cock and noticed her pussy was swollen and very wet. I
worked my cock back into its previous nest. It was so easy. I
could feel her ass muscles relaxing and opening for me. I eased
ever so slowly deeper. Such heaven! Like a warm, wet hand
gripping all around my prick - so much tighter than pussy, and
delightful in an entirely different way. I could feel her hips
grind against me as I worked the last of my seven-plus inches into
her back door. Realizing where I was and how long it had been
since I'd known this pleasure, I had to fight to pull the reigns
in on my orgasm.

It seemed like forever - my slow rocking pulling my cock almost
full-length out of her ass before easing it back in until my balls
rested against her firm buns. Her right hand furiously massaged
her clit and her left hand played at the entrance of her cunt,
pressing on the full length of her labia. And all the while my
cock was enveloped in a firm net of gripping muscles that wrestled
to bring the cum from me. "It's so weird," she said as she
searched for the grip on her own orgasm. Suddenly, it was upon
her. I felt her ass open up like a mouth that was just to blow up
a ballon. "Are you close?" she hissed. "No," I grunted.
She was close, tho'. Too close to stop. I felt her stiffen and
lurch under me. "Uuhhhh! Come on you bastard! Fill my ass!" she
yelled as she dug her nails into my back. Amazing what a little
dirty talk will do - from that special nowhere where good men
hide their orgasms until their lovers are ready, my load bolted
from my crotch to my brain and back to my flushed balls. I
gripped the pillow with my teeth and jerked my neck back and forth
and tried not to deafen Ophelia when my cum blasted out of my cock
like water from a firehose. The rush of jism racing up my tube
seemed to last for stroke after stroke until sweaty Ophelia
gasped, grunted, and pushed me from on top of her. Since I have
a little anal experience myself, I knew the sudden discomfort of
having something in your ass after you've orgasmed. I
considerately slipped out of her despite not having finsihed my
own orgasm to my complete satisfaction.

I kissed her and thanked her for her special gift, but she pushed
me away. "Go wash off and fuck my pussy," she said " I feel like
something's undone." So after a quick and thourough shower, I
returned to the futon where her dripping, swollen twat waited for
my not-quite-recovered cock.

And that's another story..

Re:oh (1, Funny)

whitefang1121 (1432411) | more than 5 years ago | (#28227855)

Where is my +1 gross button, cause that deserves it

Re:oh (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28227889)

virgin

Re:oh (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28228749)

right next to the "I'm a fag" button.

Re:oh (2, Funny)

VeNoM0619 (1058216) | more than 5 years ago | (#28227685)

So what does it do then, exactly??

But the biggest enhancements have to do with parallel programming,

It means: developers, developers, developers, developers.

Re:oh (5, Funny)

Anpheus (908711) | more than 5 years ago | (#28227713)

No, like this:

developers
developers
developers
developers
deverlopee
elsdeverlpr
opesdeveos

Or something like that. Threading is hard! :)

Re:oh (1)

Yvan256 (722131) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228279)

It's not THAT hard:

developers! developers! developers! developers!
developers! developers! developers! developers!
developers! developers! developers! developers!
developers! developers! developers! developers!
developers! developers! developers! developers!
developers! developers! developers! developers!

See? You can easily split that between four cores.

Re:oh (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28228315)

using System.Linq;
 
var developers = Parallel.Repeat("developers", 8);

Re:oh (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28228377)

Threading isn't actually that difficult. It's remarkably easy splitting a task up into bits that run in different threads, or even on different cores.

The challenge is in syncing the cores up afterwards. If one core has to wait, or finishes after an unpredictably long time, that can really mess things up, since then one or more cores may be waiting idle rather than doing anything...

The solution to that is to find a way to predict how long something will take. (One company did that with that extra RISC SLI chip on certain boards, which improves SLI efficiency)

The easiest(read: slacker) way to do it is just completely branch off separate tasks. (Ex: Run all sound or graphics processing on separate cores. The cores won't be taxed heavily, but since the tasks are usually unrelated, there's no syncing involved when they're done; they just sit idle, and when the pyshics or game logic is done being processed, they get a new frame/data to work with.) This is actually what Supreme Commander did. On a quad core, most of the cores are only loaded about 40%, with the main core loaded 100%. It tries to split pathfinding and physics up, but all the rendering is apparently still on the main core.

Re:oh (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28227731)

how fucking original. how about making up some shit about microsoft bob now too.

if that's the best you can do you probably wouldn't know what you're reading about anyway.

Re:oh (1)

DragonWriter (970822) | more than 5 years ago | (#28227741)

He also notes that the beta still lacks support for ASP.Net MVC, smart devices, and the .Net Micro Framework.

So what does it do then, exactly??

Traditional non-web programming for the desktop/laptop (that is, not a resource-constrained mobile device or embedded system) environment?

Re:oh (1)

e2d2 (115622) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228387)

It can also do web development using "standard asp.net", just not using the MVC framework which was new in .Net 3.5.

Top 3 features (5, Informative)

alphabetsoup (953829) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228401)

Quite a bit actually. Personally for me, the top 3 features are:

  • F# [wikipedia.org] - Finally a functional programming language with a real chance of becoming mainstream. I personally would have liked Haskell though :(
  • Parallel Patterns Library [microsoft.com] - An STL like library for doing parallel computation. For example, instead of the STL for_each you can use the PPL parallel_for_each. Combine this with lambda functions for best results.
  • C++0x goodies - These includes lambdas, auto, [msdn.com] rvalue references, [msdn.com] etc.

Apart from the above it includes a completely new intellisense [msdn.com] for C++, using the EDG frontend. All this in addition to the usual .Net stuff.

Re:Top 3 features (3, Informative)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228661)

I personally would have liked Haskell though :(

I'm sure it's possible to get Haskell running on .NET (in fact, rumor it is that it's what they were trying to do before switching to F#). The problem is that if you implement it using the existing CLR, you'll have to build your own framework for Haskell genericity and typeclasses, since CLR is not powerful enough on its own - and then your Haskell code will only be usable from other Haskell code. On the other hand, F# has the advantage that all its constructs are reasonably accessible from other .NET languages.

That said, typeclasses on CLR level sure would be cool. And I recall Don Syme said something about them being a possible addition to F# 2.0, so who knows...

Yay! (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28227655)

Visual Studio is the best!

Seriously.

Re:Yay! (5, Insightful)

sys.stdout.write (1551563) | more than 5 years ago | (#28227769)

I love how you have to post anonymously in order to support Microsoft products on Slashdot.

Screw it, I second this. Visual Studio has the best code completion implementation ever written. I can type lines like obj.GetSomething().Append(item) in about four keystrokes.

This makes me warm and fuzzy inside.

Re:Yay! (2, Insightful)

gbjbaanb (229885) | more than 5 years ago | (#28227901)

obj.GetSomething().Append(item) in about four keystrokes.

I believe that should be:

System.Csharp.Adding.Namespace.Collections.Stuff.Object.Manipulation obj;
obj.GetSomething().Append(item);

You *need* an IDE that allows code completion, or no-one be able to write more than 7 lines of code a day.

Re:Yay! (1)

internerdj (1319281) | more than 5 years ago | (#28227971)

I don't know I do pretty well sometimes with ctrl-c and ctrl-v and a couple of other keystrokes.

Re:Yay! (1)

Rasperin (1034758) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228585)

That's what she said

Re:Yay! (2, Insightful)

Dutch Gun (899105) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228017)

If someone hasn't gotten the hang of the 'using' keyword, then they probably shouldn't be writing more than 7 lines of code a day.

Re:Yay! (1)

Chabo (880571) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228693)

Not only that, in his example, you'd probably be able to type "Manipulation obj;" on the first line, and Visual Studio will ask you if you want to add a "using System.Csharp.Adding.Namespace.Collections.Stuff.Object" line up top, or if you want to prepend "System.Csharp.Adding.Namespace.Collections.Stuff.Object." to "Manipulation".

Re:Yay! (4, Insightful)

doti (966971) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228055)

No, what you need is a sane programming language/technique.

Re:Yay! (2, Informative)

Xest (935314) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228407)

Apparently you need to go and read a book on namespaces.

You can use namespaces that horribly badly in other languages too including Java and C++ if you really want to, but any professional programmer should be at a level where they're not that bad at it.

Re:Yay! (1)

dave562 (969951) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228021)

I'm still writing my code using Notepad you insensitive clod!

Re:Yay! (1)

Jugalator (259273) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228403)

And it's FAR more accurate in Visual C++ 2010 too.

This was earlier a problem with code complexity and the peculiarities of the C++ language, but the system has been rewritten and I believe is now based on what the compiler itself will have as its "impression" of the code.

Re:Yay! (4, Interesting)

bertok (226922) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228689)

Screw it, I second this. Visual Studio has the best code completion implementation ever written. I can type lines like obj.GetSomething().Append(item) in about four keystrokes.

Have you tried IntelliJ IDEA? It's Java-only, but I found its code completion to be many, MANY times better than VS. For one, instead of showing you every symbol that matches a prefix, it narrows down to the appropriate type.

For example, in VS, if you create two methods with similar names ("int Test1()", "string Test2()"), and try and tab complete something like string "foo = T", it'll show you Test1() first, even though Test2() is a far better match.

Note that I use VS 2008 daily, and I've got 2010 installed as well. I just tested that in VS 2010, and it still shows you every single identifier available, including class names. I know that technically, the intention may have been to reference a static, but in practice, they could go to some lengths to select a "most likely" set and an "alphabetical" set, and show the most likely first, and only show the complete set if you try to complete twice, or something.

It's a great IDE, but it could be a lot better. Microsoft really needs to get over their "not invented here" attitude, install a competing IDE at least ONCE, try it, and learn that other people sometimes do things better.

Re:Yay! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28228705)

Fuck off win-fag.

More security? (2, Interesting)

johannesg (664142) | more than 5 years ago | (#28227715)

Look at that fourth screenshot. What possible harm could loading a project do, I wonder? Does it already (partially?) execute even when it is just sitting there in the development environment? Is this an attempt to banish evil compilers from accidentally compiling source?

And why is the answer always "make the user choose" even though there is absolutely no way to make an informed choice (same problem as with UAC or sudo: I don't want to hand over the keys to the kingdom, I only want to give out narrow and specific permissions, based on useful information, rather than some nebulous feeling of 'trust')?

Re:More security? (1)

KingPin27 (1290730) | more than 5 years ago | (#28227743)

Look at that fourth screenshot. What possible harm could loading a project do, I wonder? Does it already (partially?) execute even when it is just sitting there in the development environment? Is this an attempt to banish evil compilers from accidentally compiling source?

And why is the answer always "make the user choose" even though there is absolutely no way to make an informed choice (same problem as with UAC or sudo: I don't want to hand over the keys to the kingdom, I only want to give out narrow and specific permissions, based on useful information, rather than some nebulous feeling of 'trust')?

Could it be some sort of pre-compile - that way your project looks like it compiles fast when in reality its being compiled at code time?

Re:More security? (1)

rob1980 (941751) | more than 5 years ago | (#28227757)

Does it already (partially?) execute even when it is just sitting there in the development environment?

Visual Studio picks through whatever classes you write and adds support for them to Intellisense. Maybe they've observed security issues with that in the past?

Re:More security? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28227781)

The visual designer actually instantiates the backing class and executes its constructor when opened for editing, to be able to render the component in a wysiwyg fashion.

Re:More security? (1)

sys.stdout.write (1551563) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228491)

Why is this modded funny? This is exactly what it does.

This is by far the best approach. Say I create a custom window which paints itself in some strange way. In the Visual Studio designer I can actually move it around in the dialog box and it will paint itself correctly.

Re:More security? (4, Informative)

Mr2001 (90979) | more than 5 years ago | (#28227801)

Look at that fourth screenshot. What possible harm could loading a project do, I wonder? Does it already (partially?) execute even when it is just sitting there in the development environment? Is this an attempt to banish evil compilers from accidentally compiling source?

As it says right there in the screenshot, the possible harm is from custom build steps.

Unix developers are already used to this, because makefiles have the same risks: if you untar an untrusted project and type "make", you might find that one of the build steps erases your home directory.

Re:More security? (5, Informative)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228209)

As it says right there in the screenshot, the possible harm is from custom build steps.

To clarify (since it may not be obvious to those who haven't used VS, and, in fact, even to many who did) - Visual Studio projects are nothing more but MSBuild [microsoft.com] makefiles, which has roughly the same expressive power and extensibility as, say, Apache Ant. In particular, the build steps can include file system operations, and execution of arbitrary shell commands. By default, VS-created projects have nothing like this, and so the verifier lets them load without asking. But if the file was hand-edited to include any such things, you'll see the dialog such as one on the screenshot.

Re:More security? (5, Informative)

wzinc (612701) | more than 5 years ago | (#28227853)

Does it already (partially?) execute even when it is just sitting there in the development environment

Actually, it kind-of does execute. Most controls, even user-created ones, have "design mode." That's a special view that gets rendered while you're designing pages or forms. I never thought about it, but it is just code that executes. I don't know if there's anything that prevents you from opening up an FTP connection or calling "del /f /s /q C:\*" from a control in design mode.

Re:More security? (1)

TheThiefMaster (992038) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228167)

If the projects have custom build steps set up they can execute any program they like before / after / to compile.

That's all it's warning about.

Anyone even using VS 2008 yet? (3, Informative)

tylersoze (789256) | more than 5 years ago | (#28227761)

Heck no one I've worked with has even upgraded to 2008 yet, it's been either VS 2005 or 2003.

Re:Anyone even using VS 2008 yet? (1)

snl2587 (1177409) | more than 5 years ago | (#28227815)

I'm using 2008. Do I get a cookie?

Re:Anyone even using VS 2008 yet? (2, Funny)

rob1980 (941751) | more than 5 years ago | (#28227833)

Me too. Chocolate chip plz!

Re:Anyone even using VS 2008 yet? (3, Funny)

Amazing Quantum Man (458715) | more than 5 years ago | (#28227999)

No, but you do get an add-in for FireFox... no questions asked!

Re:Anyone even using VS 2008 yet? (4, Informative)

sys.stdout.write (1551563) | more than 5 years ago | (#28227839)

We run it at work. It is pretty much the same as VS 2005. The only relevant advantage that I see is access to the .NET 3.5 Framework, which may or may not matter to you depending on what you guys program.

Re:Anyone even using VS 2008 yet? (2, Funny)

sys.stdout.write (1551563) | more than 5 years ago | (#28227851)

What am I saying? Of course it matters to you - you get a free Firefox extension with it!

Re:Anyone even using VS 2008 yet? (1)

AndrewNeo (979708) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228045)

Pshaw, you know your name should be System.Console.Write!

Re:Anyone even using VS 2008 yet? (1)

sys.stdout.write (1551563) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228529)

Touche :-)

That being said, some of us aren't lucky enough to choose the language we program in at work. I assure you I'd be using Python over .NET if I had the choice.

Re:Anyone even using VS 2008 yet? (3, Informative)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 5 years ago | (#28227953)

We run it at work. It is pretty much the same as VS 2005.

If you use it for C++ development, then the C++ compiler in 2008 has better standard compliance, and some nasty bugs [microsoft.com] in the libraries are fixed. Also, VS2008 SP1 adds C++ TR1 stuff.

Re:Anyone even using VS 2008 yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28228085)

The .NET 3.5 framework is completely accessible with VS 2005. Just add a reference to System.Core to your project. What you're mainly missing by not upgrading to 2008 are compiler features like LINQ (Or rather, the syntactic-sugary syntax for it. Everything that the sugary version gets transformed into is in the framework.) and lambda expressions.

Re:Anyone even using VS 2008 yet? (1)

TheRealMindChild (743925) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228461)

How about being able to target .NET 1.1, 2.0, 3.0, or 3.5? I thought that was pretty significant. Before, if you wanted to target .NET 1.1, you had to use VS 2003. If you wanted to target 2.0, you had to use 2005. With 2008, you can target any of them.

Re:Anyone even using VS 2008 yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28228757)

Yeah, just 3.5 access. And much improved stability for large projects. Throw in ReSharper 4.0 in VS 2008 and you have an environment which I have yet to see even close to matched in any other IDE.

Re:Anyone even using VS 2008 yet? (1)

zlogic (892404) | more than 5 years ago | (#28227875)

Visual C++ hasn't changed much since VS 2002. In fact it looks abandoned compared to .NET languages, it has worse Intellisense, debugging and code formatting. And no refactoring or decent GUI toolkit. Both MFC and Win32 API are incredibly difficult to code.

2008 has a lot of nice features, but only for .NET.

Re:Anyone even using VS 2008 yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28227951)

do you even use vc? VC has had great improvement in term of standard compliance over the years, both in compiler and libary. In that front, it is close to GCC. In 2008 and 2008 sp1 it even included a lot of TR1 features and enhanced MFC with ribbon support.

When will people learn listening, instead of talking about things they don't know.

Re:Anyone even using VS 2008 yet? (4, Informative)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228109)

Visual C++ hasn't changed much since VS 2002.

Eh? It's got C++/CLI since then, for starters. It has become much closer to ISO C++ (before 2003 it was a total joke, it didn't even get the scope of the for loop right - and 2003 was only so-so). It's got checked STL containers & iterators in 2005, and C++TR1 in 2008. And it is getting significantly improved code completion [msdn.com] , and on-the-fly error checking [msdn.com] in 2010. Doesn't sound "abandoned" to me.

On the language front, Visual C++ in 2010 gets a bunch of C++0x features: lambdas, type inference (auto), static_assert [msdn.com] , rvalue references (&&) [msdn.com] , and decltype [msdn.com] . This is quite a lot, and lambdas are especially nice since they actually let you use STL algorithms as God intended without writing tons of boilerplate code for function objects.

Then also there's Parallel Patterns Library [microsoft.com] , which provides STL-like algorithms with automatic parallelization.

And no refactoring

This one is interesting. I do not know of any C++ IDE or plugin that would provide working C++ refactoring, for very simple reason - it is extremely hard to properly parse C++, taking into account all templates and template specializations, and other context-dependent things. Heck, something like a<b>c can be parsed either as expression (a < b) > c, or as a variable declaration a<b> c, depending on the context - and that context, again, includes template instantiations, which form a Turing-complete language that has to be interpreted correctly to produce matching results. I once wrote a C++ program, for fun, which had in it a piece of code as described above, which was parsed and compiled either as expression or as variable declaration depending on whether char type was signed or unsigned was for a given compiler - so you could play with compiler options and get different results. How can IDE possibly handle this?

You can say that it does it for code completion, but the truth is that a lot of it is guessing and heuristics. And there's the catch - when it guesses wrong, at worst, you get a wrong code completion list, or no list at all. But when you do a refactoring like, say, "rename class", and it fails to correctly determine that the class is referenced at some line of code, and doesn't rename it there, then your program no longer compiles...

That said, VS2010 IDE C++ parser (used for code completion and "Go to definition") is EDG-based, so it should be much more accurate - so hopefully we'll get reliable C++ refactoring eventually. Just not in this release.

... decent GUI toolkit. Both MFC and Win32 API are incredibly difficult to code.

I agree with that, but there are many good third-party libraries out there - most notably, Qt.

Re:Anyone even using VS 2008 yet? (3, Interesting)

zlogic (892404) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228537)

Eclipse does C++ refactoring, I think Netbeans can do it too. I've used Eclipse for renaming values, implementing methods and generating getters/setters, it didn't ever break anything and showed all code that was about to be changed before doing something irreversible. Even if it breaks something, there's Local History which acts as a simple version control server, committing code on every save operation.
If a compiler can parse the code, the IDE should be capable of doing that.

Re:Anyone even using VS 2008 yet? (2, Insightful)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228639)

Eclipse does C++ refactoring, I think Netbeans can do it too. I've used Eclipse for renaming values, implementing methods and generating getters/setters, it didn't ever break anything

Did you use it with more-or-less advanced templates (e.g. anything that actively uses STL or Boost)?

If a compiler can parse the code, the IDE should be capable of doing that.

A compiler parses the code once. It doesn't have to reparse the code constantly as you keep typing or deleting lines, and to do it fast enough that the updates are near-realtime, and yet the user doesn't complain about the sluggishness.

Re:Anyone even using VS 2008 yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28228625)

There are a few C++ refactoring add-ins for Visual Studio
Refactor! for C++
Visual Assist X

C++ can be very hard to parse but most of the time the refactoring tools work.

Re:Anyone even using VS 2008 yet? (1)

AceMarkE (154966) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228667)

Actually, I think the Eclipse CDT plugin provides some amount of C++ refactoring. I know it can at least do some simple variable renaming, since I did that the other day. Not sure how much it can do beyond that, though.

Other than that, yeah, automated refactoring is just going to be much harder for C++ than for most other languages.

Re:Anyone even using VS 2008 yet? (1)

Acer500 (846698) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228025)

I am, and I'm extremely happy with it (of course I migrated from VB 6, so anything would look good).

I'm probably at the "feature abuse" level, but I'm in love with LINQ, the amount of help you get from the IDE for everything is great, and it saves time like nobody's business.

I've used Eclipse for university projects until I graduated a couple years ago, and while it was good, VS 2008 blows it away (to be fair I should compare the current version of Eclipse though).

On to the dark side of the framework, the Entity Framework is AWFUL at this stage... I guess that it will become useable by version 3.0. We'll be looking into NHibernate and other options soon. And Microsoft is still behind on a lot of AJAXy stuff, the Web side is still in need of more polish - some stuff, like the AJAX panels, is bloated, and it's far easier to do a trillion postbacks than to work with Javascript with the IDE.

I'm really looking forward to VS 2010 due to its improved Javascript support, so it might address some of the current limitations.

Re:Anyone even using VS 2008 yet? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28228133)

I have upgraded to VS 2008 (It required much teeth pulling and a 'conference' with 'The Architect' out back with a baseball bat). The best things available out of the box with VS 2008 are these: Target multiple versions of .NET Framework (2008 can work with .NET 2.0, 3.0 and 3.5, no more direct correlation between .NET and VS versions), WCF and LINQ. The interface seems to be a bit more stable too, but I digress...

Re:Anyone even using VS 2008 yet? (1)

Xest (935314) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228433)

Yes, it has much better intellisense which is the most glaring feature because it's the one that you encounter every second whilst programming.

Makes writing code a breeze, as a fairly fast touch typist, not having to type the full variable never ever because the intellisense is generally good enough to get the right variable/function name the first time (due to the fact it narrows down not just by name, but by context) I can churn out code like no tommorrow. You can put together a full, fairly complex line of code with only a few keypresses.

Anybody writing plugins for 3ds Max 2010... (1)

Animaether (411575) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228435)

Anybody writing plugins for 3ds Max 2010 will have upgraded to 2008, as you practically need 2008 to compile your code into plugins compatible with that release of 3ds Max.

That's a small market, but it serves as a demonstration that there's probably more people using 2008 - maybe not altogether by choice, as in this case - than you'd think.

Re:Anybody writing plugins for 3ds Max 2010... (1)

tylersoze (789256) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228539)

It's funny you should bring up Maya. That's another another one that I'd haven't seen upgraded. Maya 8.0 or 8.5 is the latest we're using. There's much to be said for the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it mentality" when it comes to software upgrades. If it works fine and you've been using it for years and don't want or need the latest version, why upgrade?

Re:Anyone even using VS 2008 yet? (1)

hviniciusg (1481907) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228453)

Yes i do, and i'm loving it.

specially Linq.

Re:Anyone even using VS 2008 yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28228595)

Funny, because I don't know anyone who hasn't upgraded yet.

Let me get this out of the way... (-1, Redundant)

not already in use (972294) | more than 5 years ago | (#28227785)

In an attempt to allow actual discussion, let me take care of all the typical, canned, tired replies to this story so that we can just get them out of the way:
  • Lame chair throwing reference!
  • Liberal use of M$
  • ....Bloat....Resources....vim....gdb
  • Uninformed opinion due to the fact that I've never used Visual Studio

Now... on to the real discussion!

Re:Let me get this out of the way... (0, Troll)

thetoadwarrior (1268702) | more than 5 years ago | (#28227843)

I have used Visual Studio and got bored with it. Point & Click programming isn't cool.

Re:Let me get this out of the way... (0, Troll)

Ethanol-fueled (1125189) | more than 5 years ago | (#28227957)

I have used Slashdot and got bored with it. Cut and paste trolling isn't cool.

Re:Let me get this out of the way... (1)

scumdamn (82357) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228061)

I use it and I actually write code. Of course I happen to prefer a fun, eclectic mix of XSLT, jquery, and ASP.Net. To be honest, I get a little gleeful when I crack open a new XSL stylesheet.

Re:Let me get this out of the way... (1)

e2d2 (115622) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228469)

Yeah man, I'm also too cool to use Visual Studio. I write all my code using a sword. I'm a bad ass.

I tried it, not impressed. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28227789)

I heavily use both Visual Studio 2005 and 2008, so I was excited to use 2010. The thing I found most obnoxious about it was the the text in the code editor was blurry at normal font settings (Consolas 10pt).

Let me restate that. The text in the primary window of the software that you will be staring at for hours daily... is blurry.

How on earth did that get past QA?

Re:I tried it, not impressed. (4, Informative)

Photo_Nut (676334) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228131)

I heavily use both Visual Studio 2005 and 2008, so I was excited to use 2010. The thing I found most obnoxious about it was the the text in the code editor was blurry at normal font settings (Consolas 10pt). Let me restate that. The text in the primary window of the software that you will be staring at for hours daily... is blurry. How on earth did that get past QA?

Section 2.4.2.2 of the Readme [microsoft.com] describes why the code can appear blurry:

2.4.2.2 Text may appear slightly blurry
Text may appear slightly blurry. This can occur with any font, although different users may see different fonts as more or less blurred. MSGothic, the default font for Japanese system locales, is known to be more blurred than other fonts.

To resolve this issue:

We recommend that you keep the default fonts for Visual Studio, for example, Consolas for English SKUs of Visual Studio 2010. There is no alternative that is consistently sharper than MSGothic for Japanese characters, although some users find Meiryo more readable.

TrueType fonts are the least blurred of the non-default fonts. These fonts appear in bold in the font list on the Fonts and Colors page of the Options dialog box (Tools menu, Options, Environment, Fonts and Colors). The WPF and Visual Studio teams are working to improve font rendering in the text editor before the release of Visual Studio 2010.

You can also take a look at this white paper [windowsclient.net] for more information on the issue.
The ClearType Tuner PowerToy [microsoft.com] can also help. If you are running Windows 7, it's built into the control panel.

Re:I tried it, not impressed. (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28228329)

Sadly the real problem is that it uses Windows Presentation Foundation, which renders text in an idealized grid rather than snapping glyphs to a pixel grid. In other words it renders the font exactly as it is supposed to look, and then blends this into the pixel grid, which makes it appear blurry. GDI, on the other hand, will deform the glyphs to fit them into the pixel grid thus offering better readability at the expense of accuracy.

WPF can't render aliased text either, which some people prefer, and also has a silly text animation system that will wait a second before doing the blending meaning (to prevent scrolling artifacts) so that if you scroll fast you'll initially get really blurry text that gradually turns somewhat clearer.

These are well-known problems with WPF, and has always been pushed as "by design" even though it results in horrible text. Microsoft seems to have changed their tune lately and will apparently be adressing the problem in .NET 4. I suspect the reason is because VS 2010 now uses it and the poor text quality was just not acceptable for an application like that.

Messing with the ClearType settings in Windows doesn't really help much, as WPF's renderer is completely separate.

WPF is just a big mess really, and far too complex. I'm all for a new GUI toolkit (even though it's .NET-based), but WPF just isn't it.

Re:I tried it, not impressed. (4, Informative)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228405)

The ClearType Tuner PowerToy [microsoft.com] can also help.

It will not, since it only tunes Windows's built-in ClearType renderer. Visual Studio uses WPF, which has its own renderer. There isn't really anything you can do to make it better.

That said, the blurriness is recognized as a problem [microsoft.com] , and will be fixed for 2010:

We are replacing WPF's text rendering stack in WPF 4.0, and this should allow you to render text with comparable sharpness to what you're used to with GDI. The reason the existing text stack in WPF looks blurrier than GDI's is that GDI text is typically rendered with Compatible Width Layout, whereas WPF's existing text stack always uses Ideal Width Layout. Compatible Width Layout snaps glyphs to pixel boundaries, Ideal Width does not, which is why WPF's text looks blurrier than GDI's. WPF's existing text stack also does not support use of the embedded bitmaps that are included in many fonts and are intended to be used when rendering at smaller sizes.

The new text stack in WPF 4.0 will allow Compatible Width Layout, and it will also support embedded font bitmaps. We believe this will solve all of our text blurriness issues.

Thanks!
-The WPF Graphics Team

It just didn't get into beta 1 yet.

Themes (2, Interesting)

wzinc (612701) | more than 5 years ago | (#28227809)

Whenever MS apps get themes, Office 2k7 for example, they get slower. I'll admit VS 2k10 does look nicer, it really does, but even my Core i7 with cheetah blood thermal compound sits there drawing slow UI. MS, please use native widgets, allow us to disable theming, or whatever it takes to make it go as fast as 2k8.

Re:Themes (4, Informative)

WarwickRyan (780794) | more than 5 years ago | (#28227911)

Yes, it is slower. However, being able to put form designer on one monitor and code-view on another makes it all worth while.

Re:Themes (1)

wzinc (612701) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228051)

Oh, you can do that?!? I'll have to look more into it.

Re:Themes (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228173)

Yes - you can now drag any document tab out of Visual Studio main window, just as you could to with toolwindows in earlier versions. You can also dock them to window edges, etc.

Re:Themes (2, Interesting)

WarwickRyan (780794) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228183)

Yup, but you can't dock things onto both monitors. Which is a shame, because if you could configure everything with docking and then save the settings per task it'd rock.

Imagine being able to configure the IDE for the following function with full docking:

a) Form design. Form designer with toolbox on one screen. Codebehind with solution explorer and the build/fault box on the other.

b) Object orientated development. Code window on one screen, vertically orientated widescreen, book style. Class and Solution explorer on the second screen, orientated horizontally. Probably space for an webbrowser / documentation there too.

c) Debugging. Debug screens one one screen (code window, console, call stack, watch window) and production code the other (same as most people do in 2005).

If I could define those configurations, save them to the menu and then change at will it'd rock.

Not just parallel (5, Interesting)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 5 years ago | (#28227885)

ParallelFX is definitely interesting, but I'd say that another very major addition is Visual F# [wikipedia.org] - to the best of my knowledge, this is the first time a primarily functional language goes mainstream, and gets documentation, tooling (IDE/debugging/profiling), and general support on par with the likes of C# and VB. It's not Haskell (read: no typeclasses), and it's not quite OCaml either (no functors), even though the core language is recognizably ML. But it's got most of the nice FP bits OCaml has to offer, some syntactic sugar on top of that (e.g. ability to declare locals as mutable when needed, and arithmetic operators overloaded for all numeric types), and it's got direct and full access to one of the largest class libraries on the market today.

(I'm sure someone will remind me of Scala, which is in many ways similar to F#. It's definitely comparable, but its tooling support is lagging behind, and, most importantly, it's not backed by any of the "big players" in Java land - not Sun, not Google, not IBM - or indeed, any other company.)

The second, smaller, but still interesting bit is improved language interop. It seems that, as new core (i.e. MS-supported) .NET languages are added to the batch, the framework itself is extended as needed to provide primitives for them where more than one language uses them. For example, both F# and IronPython work with tuples, but they have previously each defined their own type for that - and so .NET 4 introduces the standard System.Tuple type, and all languages are changed to use that. So now you can actually make a tuple in IronPython, and pattern-match it in F# - nice.

Another bit along the same lines is C# 4 dynamic type [wikipedia.org] - which is nothing but opt-in duck typing - and the associated DLR framework for exposing runtime dynamic type information in a common way. This means that static/dynamic language interop on .NET is now two-way - previously, you could easily call C# class methods from IronPython/IronRuby, but there was no easy way to call methods on IronPython/IronRuby objects in C# - but now you can do the latter just as easily.

Re:Not just parallel (1)

Abcd1234 (188840) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228415)

the first time a primarily functional language goes mainstream, and gets documentation, tooling (IDE/debugging/profiling), and general support on par with the likes of C# and VB.

a) Being included in VS != mainstream. We'll see if it actually gets used by anyone (I'm betting not, but who knows, I could be wrong), and

b) Erlang, a functional language, has had quite advanced tooling (fancy IDE, GUI builder, debugger, etc) for some time now (and it wouldn't surprise me if other languages did, as well).

Re:Not just parallel (0)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228471)

Being included in VS != mainstream. We'll see if it actually gets used by anyone (I'm betting not, but who knows, I could be wrong)

It's already being used by some companies. The fact that you do not know about it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen - and I apologize that I can't be more specific... :)

It just happens to have a fairly specific target niche, which is financial and scientific calculations. It's not something you're supposed to write your shiny WPF UI applications in (even though you can).

By the way, one nice F#-specific feature that I've missed is units of measurement [msdn.com] in the type system (the only other language I know that has that is Fortress, and then there's a C++ template library for that in Boost). Again, it's obviously most useful in scientific and engineering computations.

Re:Not just parallel (1)

Abcd1234 (188840) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228519)

It's already being used by some companies. The fact that you do not know about it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen - and I apologize that I can't be more specific... :)

Hah, I believe you mean *a* company. ;)

Again, we'll see... to be quite frank, I'm firmly convinced that functional programming is just far too confusing for most people, and so it'll never truly go mainstream (I can definitely see niche penetration, but that's not mainstream is it? :), regardless of the tooling and vendor support available. But, hey, I could be wrong.

As an aside, F# does have one huge advantage going for it: the ability to very easily incorporate it as a component in a larger project that *is* implemented in a mainstream language. So you can write most of your app in nice, friendly C#, and use F# where its advantages really shine.

Re:Not just parallel (3, Insightful)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228619)

Again, we'll see... to be quite frank, I'm firmly convinced that functional programming is just far too confusing for most people, and so it'll never truly go mainstream (I can definitely see niche penetration, but that's not mainstream is it? :), regardless of the tooling and vendor support available. But, hey, I could be wrong.

You're probably right regarding full-fledged FP, but FP techniques have certainly been making inroads in the last 10 years or so. First-class functions have gone from an arcane concept to something every mainstream language today has in one way or another (even Java has a castrated version of it in form of anonymous inner classes). Python, Ruby, and now C# programmers happily use map/filter/fold (or whatever it's called in their libraries) as opposed to hand-coding loops. And so on.

To that extent, it should be noted that F# is not a pure functional language a la Haskell - it has mutable locals and fields, it has strictly imperative constructs such as loops or if-without-else, it is eager and not lazy, and it has well-defined evaluation order. In practice, it can just as easily be used as "advanced C#" - exploiting its better type inference, using pattern matching as a glorified typeswitch, and simply enjoying the little bits like inline array/list/sequence generators or anonymous objects - and ignore the traditional FP patterns and approaches. When used that way, it gets really close to Scala. And, in fact, I suspect that it's how most people on .NET will use it in the end.

As an aside, F# does have one huge advantage going for it: the ability to very easily incorporate it as a component in a larger project that *is* implemented in a mainstream language. So you can write most of your app in nice, friendly C#, and use F# where its advantages really shine.

That is very true, and the F# team has stated many times that it is indeed the intended goal. It's why VS2010 doesn't come with visual UI designers for F#, for example - it can be done, but what's the point? But if I need to e.g. write a parser for my .NET project, I would very strongly consider using F# + FParsec [quanttec.com] for it - it's just so much concise, easier, and more powerful than all available C# solutions.

Bah, failboat. (1)

Abcd1234 (188840) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228475)

So totally wrong on point b. As usually, I'm convolving Eiffel, the OOP language with a fancy IDE, with Erlang, the functional programming language that's focused on parallel programming... *sigh*

I stand by my first point, though. :)

Re:Not just parallel (1)

EvanED (569694) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228493)

Not to disagree, but the nice thing about this is that if you're doing .Net programming, my impression is it should be pretty easy to integrate F# code into your project, easier than most foreign function interfaces since F# is complied to .Net classes behind the scenes anyway.

Re:Not just parallel (1)

Abcd1234 (188840) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228561)

Yeah, I can definitely agree with that. But that's hardly mainstream, at least as I define it. That is, accepted by developers as a language to do primary development in (similarly, assembly isn't mainstream, even though it's sometimes integrated into larger projects written in another language (eg, C)).

programming environment for dummies (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28227925)

it is just needed like everything else.

Regarding C++ (4, Informative)

xquark (649804) | more than 5 years ago | (#28227979)

Compatibility and conformance with standards (TR1), also going that extra step forward and implementing some of the upcoming 0x features I can truly say that since VS05 MS has gone a long way. WRT Language/IDE/Debug integration nothing comes close in the OSS world for the C++ language (and please don't say CDT, I've tried using 5 and it can't even do the simple C++ syntax properly let alone templates or even simple metaprograms).

Disappointing/sad thing with VS10 is that a lot of the interesting source code metric/analysis stuff is only available for C++\CLI. For pure C++ code metrics I've been pinning my hopes for the past 5 years on someone getting around to implementing to-do #6 of doxygen.

Great! (0, Redundant)

Saija (1114681) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228019)

For a living i've to code in .net & windows(well, there's some legacy in unix servers too but that's another story), and let me tell you: Visual Studio is awesome, i lets you develop some quick and dirty apps just easy, the intellisense feature and the forms designer are some of the best out there(yeah, i know, there's netbeans and qt designer, but francally, the netbeans designer, aka matisse has it's issues, the qt counterpart don't know much), but nothing that i know beats Vs.

Re:Great! (1)

sys.stdout.write (1551563) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228681)

That was an 87 word sentence! This just might be a new record!

Fix the D@mn Help Files (1)

Nom du Keyboard (633989) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228033)

I wish they'd fix the d@mn VS help files. Visual Studio 5/6 had easy to read, easy to use help file system that reached its end with the MSDN Library of October 2001.

The VS.NET help files have been Crap from the very beginning, and at least through 2008 have remained Crap to try to read and understand compared to their VS 6 predecessors. Whatever "genius" they hired to revamp the system into something more trendy should be stripped naked, dusted with itching powder, and hung out to rot!

Nice, yes, but perf issues... (1)

tomk (20364) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228069)

I tried out VS2010 and found it to have some nice improvements; though nothing earth-shattering for me personally, it has some little things that are nice-to-have, and I can see how those things would improve productivity. But I had such severe performance problems I had to give up using it.

In a solution with 12 C# projects and 3 C++ projects, compiling takes around 5 minutes (took under a minute with VS2008) and hangs the UI completely for nearly the entire time. It also seems to not honor dependencies quite right, because compiling a second time with changes in only one project without downstream dependencies still takes nearly as long.

I sincerely hope Microsoft invests some more effort in the performance side of things prior to RTM, if they do, I'll be happy to upgrade.

Anyone still using Visual Studio 6? (2, Interesting)

wandazulu (265281) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228105)

VC6, to me, is the '57 Chevy of IDEs; it's out of date, lacking in features, isn't to everyone's tastes, but just keeps on runnin' with a strange magic that Microsoft has never been able to reproduce in its later versions. I've used every VS version since 2, and all the versions after 6 were plagued by bugginess, general slowness, and, here's the real subjective part, a feeling of fragility that I never experienced with VC6. I have used VS8 quite a bit and while I appreciate having a more up-to-date compiler (stupid BS "security warnings" aside), VC6 still, for whatever reason, remains the IDE I want to use if I have to write Windows-specific C++.

Frankly, I don't *want* to use VC6, just like I don't want to put a bottle of lead-substitute into my gas tank every time I fill up, it's just that it has that perfect mix of speed, usefulness, and the ability to get out of my way that none of the .net versions have been able to capture.

Re:Anyone still using Visual Studio 6? (1)

harry666t (1062422) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228425)

Long ago... VS6 was my first contact with C++. Well, yes, I'm young ;P

I don't have any particular feelings about that tool... Just as I don't have about any other. I always use whatever fits the task, what I know the best, what I'm comfortable with. It's usually Emacs nowadays... It was VS6 back in the day because I was a clueless newbie, that is what I had at hand, and what has worked for me.

Re:Anyone still using Visual Studio 6? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28228463)

I agree, I use 2008 now, but vc6 is still on my desktop, and whenever I fireup v6 I am amazed at the speed and quality. I long for a vc6 IDE with the updated features of 2008.

*extremely* old news (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28228349)

First Look?

Hello and welcome to 8 months ago [codeguru.com] .

Whatever. (-1, Troll)

schmidt349 (690948) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228523)

Microsoft: charging you $629 for a developer platform worst than most of the ones that come free.

Re:Whatever. (5, Informative)

genghisjahn (1344927) | more than 5 years ago | (#28228611)

Allow me to introduce you too... http://www.microsoft.com/Express/ [microsoft.com] There will be VS2010 versions. It's not the high-end dev environment, but it does quite a bit.
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