Do Companies Punish Workers Who Take Vacations? 948
Hugh Pickens writes "Chad Brooks reports that a steady stream of research over the past year reveals that Americans aren't taking vacations and it's because they are afraid to take time off from work for fear of appearing less than dedicated to their employer with one survey showing that 70 percent of employees said they weren't using all their earned vacation days in 2011. 'You have this kind of fear of not wanting to be seen as a slacker,' says John de Graaf, executive director of Take Back Your Time, an organization focused on challenging the epidemic of overwork, over-scheduling and time famine facing society. De Graaf adds that while some companies are good about encouraging employees to use earned time off, there also are some that aren't worried about the potential repercussions that may come from that nose-to-the-grindstone approach. 'They think, "If I burn someone out, I can always find someone else,"' says de Graaf. 'They think [employees] are expendable.' Even when they do take vacation, research shows many employees aren't leaving their work behind. In one study, 66 percent of surveyed employees said they would check and respond to email during their time off, and 29 percent expect to attend meetings virtually while on vacation. De Graaf is not optimistic anything will ever get done to free employees of their fear of taking time off. 'This is the only wealthy country in the world that does not guarantee any paid vacation time,' says de Graaf. 'Every other country understands that this makes people healthier and creates a better workforce.'"
Frettin' over the grindstone (Score:5, Insightful)
It's very important to me to be able to fuck off from my job. I skip out early, I take days off, I ignore phone calls after hours. As long as I get the job done during the day, I don't care what people think. I am a slacker, and I enjoy it. Life's too short to fret over the grindstone. Don't take life too seriously!
Re:Frettin' over the grindstone (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Frettin' over the grindstone (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Frettin' over the grindstone (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Frettin' over the grindstone (Score:5, Interesting)
So yes, in my experience, if people could go back and do it all over again, they would spend more time/effort on work and less on their family, backwards as that sounds. When you are on your death bed, if you wonder if you left enough behind for your family, you either needed to work more or buy more insurance.
Re:If you enjoy your job, then why not? (Score:5, Insightful)
If you don't enjoy your job, then that sucks.
How many people do you think really enjoy their jobs ?! The only reason many people work is simply for the paycheck.
Re:If you enjoy your job, then why not? (Score:5, Insightful)
Hear Hear!!
I mean, it isn't black or white...I enjoy my job enough...I'm not unhappy. I wouldn't do it if there wasn't some pleasure in it, HOWEVER, if I won the powerball tomorrow, I doubt I'd even go back in to collect the few personal things I keep at my desk.
I, like I think most would do...would never work again a day in my life!!
I'd be way too busy travelling, chasing women and generally having fun. Would part of my fun be playing with computers? Sure....but only for fun or interesting projects.
I've heard that some people are almost 'defined' by their jobs. I personally can't understand that. I am SO much more than that...
I ONLY work, in order to support the lifestyle I enjoy (which of course takes money) that I enjoy outside the office. And...I do need time out of the office to enjoy MY life and doing things I enjoy....and play with the toys I buy. If I didn't have to worry about a paycheck, you can bet your sweet ass I'd never work again at a 'job'. Why would anyone?
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:If you enjoy your job, then why not? (Score:5, Interesting)
I started the engineering career game in 97, and from all the changes in the world, the economy, and unsatisfying jobs or corporate BS I just haven't found that right job or company, or maybe it's just life. I've yet found a company where I could even imagine myself there for 38 years. In a way I wish I could.
Re:If you enjoy your job, then why not? (Score:5, Funny)
I'd be way too busy travelling, chasing women and generally having fun.
In Powerball Lottery Winner, women chase you!
Re:If you enjoy your job, then why not? (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe you need to look into getting a different job. I assure you that I won powerball I would find the use for the money but I would not leave my job. Don't you have colleagues you like? Friends of yours who would hang out with you on their free time but work during the day like you?
If you had nothing to do all day, you'd get bored soon enough. Also, don't get me started on what kind of women you would find yourself chasing (as an non-working and bored millionaire). Could be fun, but not in the long run.
Re:If you enjoy your job, then why not? (Score:5, Insightful)
I enjoy my job. I have excellent co-workers that I enjoy spending time with.
I love spending time with my family and friends while camping, visiting museums, travelling, etc. more.
To each his own, but I only work so I can support my enjoying life with friends and family habit.
Re:If you enjoy your job, then why not? (Score:5, Insightful)
If you had nothing to do all day, you'd get bored soon enough.
There are other things to do with your time than work. Why not go see the world? It's a huge fascinating place that few these days get to see. If you had the time and finances to do it.. GO. Or, if you still feel locked into a life of servitude, why not volunteer your time? Go help out at a homeless shelter, plant some trees, spend time with the lonely elderly. If you no longer have to worry about you, go help out somebody else who isn't as fortunate, and be a decent human being.
Re:If you enjoy your job, then why not? (Score:4, Insightful)
Why not go see the world?
Better yet, why not fake secret agent? Ladies and limos, sports cars and silencers for your paintball-but-looks-like-real gun.
Re:If you enjoy your job, then why not? (Score:5, Informative)
I knew a winner of a lottery (not a powerball, but we are talking a bit south of 50M). He said almost the same thing because he liked his job, and the people he worked with, and just generally thought he wanted to do something that really filled up his time.
Fast forward a year or so, and he quit. He basically said that, sure he liked the people he worked with, but all that crap about having something to do with your time, and liking your job? total bs in the end. It became very difficult to take any sort of grief at his job, and having limited/restrictions on his movements and freedom became too much of an issue, especially with his family.
He basically said that people who SAY that they would still work at their job are people that HAVEN'T won the lottery. You can always find things to take up your time, and you can always hang out with those coworkers you liked outside of work.
Now? He travels 5 months of the year, owns a few businesses that he has other people to run, and does hockey bar-leagues to keep in shape, while spending all the rest of his time with his family, and watching his 3 kids grow up.
Re:If you enjoy your job, then why not? (Score:5, Insightful)
Amen to that. My job has been good to me, so if I won the lottery I'd probably stay on for a few months and help them find my replacement, and maybe put in some time getting the guy trained, but beyond that I'm gone.
I enjoy my job. There are things I enjoy more, but nobody is willing to pay me to do them. Take the money out of the equation and I'm going for what I like the most.
Re:If you enjoy your job, then why not? (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't understand you can say that...why would you guess I'd have 'nothing to do all day'?
I was between gigs for 7 months a few years ago...I live in New Orleans. My typical day..get up, walk the dog around the neighborhood...eat breakfast, jump on my motorcycle, hit the gym for a couple hours...home...do some job searching, research, reading..etc...then when weather was nice, I'd hop on my bike and go all around the city. I saw things new every day...being a tourist in my city...all the art museums, hit some bars to listen to bands and run around the Quarter all day. When it got to about 3pm or so, I'd call and plan to meet some friends of mine getting off of work to have some beers....and ride a bit more around the city, and then home...cook dinner, then watch tv or play with my home toys (computers, tv, audio, etc).
I frankly almost hated that I landed another gig (and unfortuantely this time had to go W2)...I have a good job. I make a ton of money....but I sure would rather be doing what I was doing.
There is SO much to do in my city...and when I want a break, if I was powerball winner...I'd take vacations!! Travel...how can you get tired of that? Meeting new people, seeing new places, trying new foods....getting plowed on a new beach..?
I guess there are just a lot of people out of there that don't have enough imagination to figure out all the fun things to do in the world. I could easily spend the rest of my life doing just that if I didn't have to worry about money.
Hell...likely as not, after I'd settled down from the initial fun with all that money...is drop my dog off at my parents'....and jump on my motorcycle...and ride across and around the USA. So much of it I've not seen yet....
Seriously...if you didn't have to work...you don't think you could keep yourself occupied?
I don't like to work. Period...there is NO job out there that I'd like to do if I didn't have to earn a living..nothing. I easily fill my limited time away from work having an adventure in life....if I had the money, I could easily fill each and every day doing something fun and really having an adventure.
I honestly have no comprehension on how anyone else could think differently.....I guess it comes to that other concept I can't grasp...someone being defined by their work that I hear about. I guess that's why some peope really LOSE it...when they lose a job (not considering just loss of income)...but from what I understand...they actually get depressed because somehow...their job is THEM.
Re:If you enjoy your job, then why not? (Score:4, Insightful)
Keep in mind that you'd pay long-term capital gains of only 15% rather than 28%, basically boosting your ($100k) income by $13k/year (and for $200k/year at 33%, add another $5k/$100k/year savings to that).
And I don't know about you, but I could certainly get by on a take-home income of $85k/year - Hell, I make somewhat less than that gross, and live pretty damned well for my area.
Re:If you enjoy your job, then why not? (Score:5, Insightful)
A lot of people like to talk about how you should find a way to get paid for doing what you love, but for the vast majority of people, that's impossible. The world needs ditch diggers and customer service agents and so forth, and always will. You're not gonna find someone who really enjoys cleaning bird shit off the sidewalk, who would do it even if they didn't need the money. The vast majority of people work for the paycheck, and that will always be the case. The fact that a fellow bird shit cleaner is a good guy doesn't matter, you could always hang out with him after work (although realistically, suddenly acquiring that sort of money will quickly ruin most casual friendships).
Yeah, you'd get bored doing nothing, but there's a whole range of options between "doing nothing" and "working 40 hours a week". You could join clubs, do volunteer work, start your own little project that may or may not ever make money, etc.
Re:If you enjoy your job, then why not? (Score:5, Insightful)
if I won the powerball tomorrow, I doubt I'd even go back in to collect the few personal things I keep at my desk.
Maybe you need to look into getting a different job. I assure you that I won powerball I would find the use for the money but I would not leave my job. Don't you have colleagues you like? Friends of yours who would hang out with you on their free time but work during the day like you?
If you had nothing to do all day, you'd get bored soon enough. Also, don't get me started on what kind of women you would find yourself chasing (as an non-working and bored millionaire). Could be fun, but not in the long run.
Sure, I like them fine, and I'd like seeing them more like 5 hours a week, instead of 40.
I'd actually continue with the project I'm involved in at work, but it would shift down from taking 80% of my productive time to maybe 30%, I'd be involved with it on my terms, and I'd certainly find time to do other things that I want to to.
The difference between "work" and "self-determined endeavor" goes something like this for me:
"Work" - means that you diligently apply best effort 40 hours a week to most efficiently achieve the stated goals. I will code a module, make it good enough for the task at hand, integrate it, test it, document it so other people (and I) can work with it in the future, and then f'ing forget about it while I move on to the next task. Nothing is particularly artful, beautiful or polished because that's not what the company needs - even if I might enjoy doing fewer things to a higher level of completion.
"Self-Determined Endeavor" goes something like this - over the holiday I opted to do some work on my car, instead of choosing the "efficient" route and having a professional do the work, I took the time to do it myself. I started by clearing some shelf space in the garage, then sweeping out the floor - there were a bunch of leaves in the driveway so I got out the leafblower and cleaned those up, and cleared off the sidewalk and some cobwebs on the front of the house while I was at it. Some things needed to shift into the shed, so it got a bit of cleaning and straightening too. Not exactly the way I'd go about "paid work," but still an efficient application of my time and effort. While I was working on the car, I discovered I needed additional parts that took a few days to arrive, since the garage was cleared out and clean, I used the space to build a couple of tables that I had been wanting to make. By the time the car was done, a whole lot more grease and dirt had been removed from the engine than if a professional had done the job, more loose nuts and bolts were found and fixed, and some rusty intake pipes were sanded and repainted.
I know, tl/dr, if I were a professional writer, I'd come to the point in a more direct and engaging fashion, but, see, that's the difference, you're not paying me to write this post, I'm doing it because _I_ want to.
UR DOING IT WRONG (Score:5, Funny)
You are doing it wrong. If you win the powerball, you don't have to chase women, they chase you.
Re:If you enjoy your job, then why not? (Score:5, Insightful)
I do not expect to get laid off with zero notice. I do not expect my company to fuck me over.
Don't go to work in the IT field, or you will be in for a nasty surprise!
Re:If you enjoy your job, then why not? (Score:5, Insightful)
As my law teacher always said "I always read in the papers "looking for job". Ladies and gentlemen, that's a lie. Nobody's looking for a job. Everyone's just looking for money".
It was funny when I was 18. It had become truer and truer with every day I live.
Re:If you enjoy your job, then why not? (Score:5, Insightful)
Do you work in a heroin factory or something?
I know people that get varying degrees of satisfaction from what they do, but I've never even heard of that sort of behaviour before.
Re:If you enjoy your job, then why not? (Score:5, Interesting)
It's not uncommon for people to show up 30-45 minutes early and a lot of times we forget to leave until the cleaning crew comes in to remind us.
Anyone in your office have a spouse? Kids? Close friends, even? (And if they do have kids my question is "why?")
Re:If you enjoy your job, then why not? (Score:5, Insightful)
I LOVE my job. I'm passionate about it. I'm good at it. I'm proud of my work. And I do it 8 hours a day.
Your implication that if a person loves doing something they should do it continuously, or the contrapositive, if they do not do it continuously they do not love doing it, is pure horseshit.
If you really enjoy doing something so much that you'll work 18 hour days doing it, that's great -- work for yourself and become rich from your efforts. Go forth and live the dream many of us share. But doing that for somebody else who takes the lion's share of profit from your 18 hour commitment? That makes you a tool.
Re:If you enjoy your job, then why not? (Score:5, Interesting)
I enjoy my job. I work 18 hours a day, because if I don't, the others will screw up any tasks I let them do. I spend 16 hours a day fixing their mistakes so the customers don't find them. I took a vacation. 3 days in the hospital with high blood pressure and a TIA. Within 5 minutes of walking out of the hospital, my phone was ringing off the hook. Everything was falling apart, no one could figure out how to fix it. Simple instructions were answered with blank stares (well, the telephonic equivalent). Within 10 minutes of getting out of the hospital, I was on my laptop trying to fix the problem, and fielding back to back phone calls.
If I take 2 weeks off, that means I finally got someone else who could manage my job for 2 weeks. Then I am redundant. Even if it takes 2 people with less than half my skill, at 30% of my pay each, most companies would jump at the opportunity, and brag about the "savings". Well, savings, until things fall apart for them.
Modern businesses have absolutely no dedication to their employees. When there's money to be saved, they will be very happy to throw you to the curb, and hire someone who can talk shit for half your pay. I was out of any real work for 3 years because of exactly that. I'm not willing to take another 3 year vacation, wondering where I'll sleep or how I'll eat every day until I find another job.
That's the sad truth of modern business.
Re:If you enjoy your job, then why not? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:If you enjoy your job, then why not? (Score:5, Informative)
Sounds like you make decent money.
A hint ... if you are in the hospital with high blood pressure and a possible heart attack then QUIT. So what if they find cost savings. Is it worth your health and to your family if you fall over dead?
Become a consultant and work on better terms that are yours and chill. It doesn't matter how much money you make if you are alone in a big house with no wife or if you fall over dead and never spend a cent of your hard earned cash. I am just saying.
Re:If you enjoy your job, then why not? (Score:5, Insightful)
Go to France. Labor laws in there are incredible. It actually makes you feel like you landed in a different planet.
Re:If you enjoy your job, then why not? (Score:5, Interesting)
You're welcome to try your luck in Sweden. As long as you have a job here, you can get a work visa indefinitely, and after five to ten yours, you become naturalised (meaning, you can choose to change your citizenship).
Just be aware that there are ups and downs to every country. I've never been to the USA, but I suspect the political correctness is much worse here. You're expected to fit in, be polite and avoid open conflicts, and that includes the workplace.
Swedish leadership culture may take some time to get used to; often, the boss and the staff sits around and talks until they find a solution everyone is reasonably happy with. For an outsider, it may seem like nothing has been decided at all, because the group slowly converges to the decision during the discussion.
Re:If you enjoy your job, then why not? (Score:5, Informative)
If you're in the hospital with high blood pressure, working 18 hour days, you don't have a 'real job'. You are a slave, and the next vacation you take will be underground. You could start your own business with less stress and more control over your life. That constant threat hanging over your head is also bad for your well-being. Even if you have a family, you would do them no favours by losing your health or dropping dead.
Wow .... (Score:5, Insightful)
If what you're saying is true (and if it is, I'm not even quite sure how you found time to read this article on Slashdot and post a reply?) ... you *really* need to sit back, think about what you just wrote, and ask yourself if that's REALLY how you want your life to be from here forward!
First of all, I would assume and hope you're getting paid pretty well for working all those 18 hour days and having so much responsibility. That means, you're simply not doing something right if you haven't been able to put aside some of that money in savings, in case you DO need to switch jobs and don't have a check for a while. (So that situation you're so afraid of, of being out of work for 3 years and not knowing how you were going to sleep or eat shouldn't have to happen again.)
Second, yep, fewer and fewer businesses have any loyalty to employees, but that should be a 2-way street! If they view you as that "expendable", then why work so hard for them?! Do the basics outlined in your job description, and not anything more unless you actually WANT to do it. If, like you say, they "throw you to the curb" thinking they can get someone a lot cheaper to do the same or better, LET THEM. Either they're right and you were simply getting paid too much for the value you actually brought to their table, or (much more likely) they'll fail a few times in a row and start adjusting their expectations and/or pay scale as they learn how wrong they were.
And third? Maybe you need to spend less time worrying about customers running into these mistakes you're concerned about, and more time documenting procedures so OTHERS can do some of these tasks properly? It sounds like right now, a lot of people are getting paid to screw things up that you're putting in all these insane hours correcting. You've got to break that cycle, even IF it means a temporary drop in customer satisfaction ....
Re:If you enjoy your job, then why not? (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh, I enjoy my job. I'm one of the few happy people who actually do what they like to do. Yet even I would quit instantly if I didn't have to earn money. Here's why.
I am in IT-Security. Not trying to go into detail, but my work is mostly to tell people why their ideas are insecure, how they could make them more secure while all the time not carrying any measurable risk myself. I get to float above the problems and sprinkle my wisdom down on the hapless managers who have to listen to me and carry the risk that I dump on their shoulders. Sounds lovely, eh? Hey, it's nice. But I'd rather go and actually do something meaningful. Like, give them a hand in their attempt to actually create something really secure. Which is something nobody actually wants, to be blunt. Security costs money but doesn't generate money. So everyone just wants the bare minimum necessary to make the risk acceptable. Nobody wants best practice, optimal performance, whatever other buzzword, if they want any crappy buzzword cocktail, they want cheapest possible. And this, folks, is decidedly NOT fun. It's the anathema of security. And I don't do it for the money. Don't think it's THAT well paid to tell managers why they're dorks. It's the job perk that keeps the salary down, it seems...
The reason I went into this business, and here's the catch, IMO for most people, is a different one than why I'm in the industry now. How many people came into game development due to their love of games, only to do now what they don't REALLY love because they have to work on games they don't enjoy? How many people went into hardware design and MCs to craft some great robotic gadgets only to do boring car logics now? And I bet I'm not the only one in itsec who has the zeal to create secure systems only to find out that there's not really a "market" for that (and sadly, we neither have a space program nor a secret service worth the name) and that they spend their time now creating a few metric tons of paper (aka cover-your-ass-paper, and about as useful as TP) instead of actually increasing security a notch.
People, at least if they have a job that doesn't include the phrase "want fries with that", usually work in a field they like or even love. It is, though, rarely exactly just what they love. In my spare time I aid friends in their attempts to create secure web pages. No paperwork, no "gotta cover your ass or get blamed", it's actually fun to do that. It just doesn't really have the volume that I could make a living off that. Companies that could pay my hourly rates are usually also the ones that are more interested in a few metric tons of paper to prove they follow some (useless, I might add) certification process than actually reaching a sensible level of security and safety.
Re:Frettin' over the grindstone (Score:5, Insightful)
What a load of crap.
The vast, vast majority of work isn't Important. The people who make large real world changes are very few. The vast majority has the function of a cog in a machine. Some are lucky to be a valuable and well taken care of cog, but it's still a cog.
Even if you're really happy with your job, unless you're one of those incredibly rare people whose work saves many lives, or dramatically improves living conditions, or something of that sort, I doubt very much you'll wish you could have done more of it on your death bed.
My satisfaction with my job is usually quite good. At some points it's been really outstanding. But even in the most satisfying times, I can assure you that if I found out I was going to die in 6 months, I'd be out of there in a week at most.
Re:Frettin' over the grindstone (Score:5, Interesting)
The vast, vast majority of work isn't Important.
Oh god, this this this this this.
Its no wonder the world economy is in the state it's in, with all the pointless busy-work being done that is allegedly necessary to the functioning of business.
Re:Frettin' over the grindstone (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Frettin' over the grindstone (Score:5, Funny)
Are you kidding? ShavedOrangutan is pure porn gold!
I can see it now: Tumescence of the Planet of the Apes
Re:Frettin' over the grindstone (Score:5, Interesting)
Making porn is easy. Putting it up on your own web site is easy. Making DVD's is easy.
Driving traffic to your web site is hard. It's you, versus tens of thousands (a conservative estimate) of other "porn stars".
So you make DVDs. Get a distribution deal. Find out how to get distribution web sites, and physical stores, to carry your DVD. What makes your DVD special? Is it any different than the thousands of DVDs they already have in stock?
And for those who have followed me on here, they already know that I was in the industry for years. For every "porn star" that I met who actually got distributed, I probably met thousands of others who never even recovered the cost of the tape/SD card that they recorded it on.
If you're serious, you'll spend thousands on good equipment, and pay some experienced people to work it. If you're lucky, you'll make hundreds. If you're that one in tens of thousands, you may recover your costs. ... and ... you'd be amazed at the "talent" that's out there. I've seen so many aspiring porn stars who I'd pay money to put their clothes back on.
Re:Frettin' over the grindstone (Score:4, Insightful)
Even if he had the right job, I doubt he'd be thinking that.
There's far, far, far more to life than work. Especially when you work for someone else.
Re:Frettin' over the grindstone (Score:5, Insightful)
What's more, even corporations who think that employee happiness doesn't matter because they can just hire someone else are just hurting themselves. Conservatively, it costs about 100k in upfront cost to hire someone. That can quickly balloon to one million if we're talking about skilled workers with specialized in-house knowledge. Heck, even a burger flipper or a maid costs money to hire - all that HR paperwork for terminating people and hiring people doesn't happen on its own.
All I can see when people are arguing that it's ok for companies to do this is people who don't know how to run efficient operations. Quite frankly, if the company has that attitude, please do fire me, because the company is one disaster or efficient competitor away from oblivion..
Re:Frettin' over the grindstone (Score:5, Informative)
but statistics also show that productivity for a group actually goes up if you fire a bad team member.
Except now you're implying that someone who does use their vacation time and doesn't work themselves to the bone is a "bad team member".
Re:Frettin' over the grindstone (Score:5, Insightful)
You clearly don't work at any company which is trying to get anywhere. Lucky you.
I have worked for people who don't only expect the worker to work extra hours for no additional compensation, but expect it. It's how management can pat itself on the back for meeting goals (their goals, not yours.)
While mental health is affected by having time off to rest and rejuvenate, it can also give you some break from the stresses of getting things done to consider better ways to do it. Not all employers value this, many who are frequently mentioned in /. articles are near slave drivers - which is OK with some young employees as this gets them their first experience and paycheck - while they don't recognize the value of their own time or are eager to sacrifice now. The problem is, where do you go when you leave, if you've only been one more ant?
I have a few friends who have left high pressure work to spend more time with families - they are very happy and don't miss being threatened over their bread and butter with termination for not working 16 hour days.
Re:Frettin' over the grindstone (Score:5, Insightful)
AMEN! I abandoned the corporations for small business. we are encouraged to take our vacation, and at the end of the year we are allowed to take sick days as vacation. I burned 4 sick days for the day before and after Thanksgiving and Christmas as did everyone else in the company.
I also am allowed to shift my work day to 7:30-4:30 so that I have a zero traffic commute, etc...
I strongly suggest to corperate slaves to start looking to the smaller companies where the owners are honest men and treat people with respect.
Life is too short to waste it working for an asshole.
Re:Frettin' over the grindstone (Score:5, Insightful)
I do try to stay alert, because I don't want to come back to know that I forgot something important. So I'll check some e-mail just to keep me informed, and if I'm within reach and able to do so. I enjoy my vacations, but I'm not irresponsible you know?
Why would not checking email on your vacation be seen as "irresponsible"?
the answer is yes (Score:5, Informative)
having worked for a company that did punish employees who took vacations I can say the answer to this is yes..
Re:the answer is yes (Score:5, Insightful)
Similar situation here, though maybe not so obvious.
Officially, we are ordered to take all scheduled vacation days, required to schedule them early in the year.
In reality, we are expected to attend meetings, check email, and do work while on vacation, despite official policy prohibiting such. Anyone who doesn't work at least five to ten hours of overtime per week is "not being a team player" and "not understanding the significance of the priority of the project." Supervising managers are expected to frequently work twelve hour days or more, and a vacation day means that they might only work eight hours that day, attending meetings, responding to email, etc.
Re:the answer is yes (Score:5, Insightful)
Find a new job. Conspire with your coworkers to make sure as many people as possible leave at once. If you make the lesson painful enough they will learn it.
Re:the answer is yes (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:the answer is yes (Score:4, Informative)
Of course it helps if your group or department has a well defined processes and documentation. We have redundancy and some overlap in responsibility built in so that the absence of one person will not bring the show to a screeching halt. This is even at the management level. Team leads will usually act as proxy for the vacationing manager and are empowered to make decisions in his or her absence (or course they have to justify those decisions when the manager returns...)
So I guess at a poorly run company or department, yes you can get punished. But a well run company that has a clear strategy and well defined processes and workflows, not so much.
Re:the answer is yes (Score:5, Interesting)
A company I was working for was bought by Vivendi, a French company. They had an interesting way of making sure that local management didn't try to discourage the workers from taking their time off. The team budget for salaries was minus vacation time. When an employee took time off Vivendi 'paid' us instead of the company. If you didn't take time off the team went over budget and the management felt the heat. This made management encourage people to use their full vacation time. It worked pretty well.
Re:the answer is yes (Score:5, Interesting)
Wow. I must be lucky in my last two jobs. At both places (both multinationals), we were encouraged to not only take our allotted time, but we were told you're on vacation you will not be called or expected to work. Most of us bring at least our phones "just in case", but I can honestly say I've never been called when taking scheduled time off.
This is how it works in Australia, too much accrued annual leave (20 days standard) is considered a liability for companies. Most would rather you took it in small lots rather then saving up 3 months of leave and then taking off on a holiday. Also if you leave or are terminated all remaining annual leave must be paid out. To a small company this could send them into the red for that month.
This is why it's standard on contracts in Oz to have a clause that does not permit more then 8 weeks (40 days or 2 years of accrual) of annual leave to be accrued. Here the company has the option of paying out the leave (if the employee does not wish to take leave).
I did that once (Score:5, Interesting)
There are those who are afraid, and there are those who think their job is just short term. I've found that by giving a 90 day notice of an upcoming vacation tends to make the more nervous bosses less so. I follow up every 30 days stating in my email, that on such and such a date I'll be taking some time off.
I even reminded the Management that they'd need to assign someone to cover for me early enough for me to bring my stand-in up to speed. No action.
As we got down to the last few weeks before I was scheduled to leave, my immediate manager started dropping hints that this wasn't a good time to be out of the office. I replied that that was why it was important to have someone cover for me.
About a week before I'm scheduled for time off, I get called into a meeting with every suit above me right up to the senior VP. They go on at great length about how important the work I'm doing is, how critical etc. to the Company, and what a poor time it will be for me to be gone. I make understanding noises. Finally they ask me if I'm going to reschedule my time off. I tell them that we have travel booked, hotels, all that.
They then dial up the "we really, really, really need you here" stuff. So I fold: "Well, if that's how it is we'll just have to tell the wedding guests they're on their own and call off the wedding." Silence.
I'm reliably informed that the partying at the reception went on nearly till dawn. We weren't there.
Re:I did that once (Score:5, Insightful)
You are a dummy.
This is easy to solve, you tell them you would love to reschedule. They only need to pay for any lost deposits and for the whole new wedding. If you really are that important they would do that.
I just got back from a job fair today (Score:5, Interesting)
Everyone was excited about how the economy is screaming and moving forward with 3x more postings than last year! ... the jobs were all insurance selling door to door, hotel maids, cocktail waitressing, etc. This was a professional job fair too and only one of the 40 employers had anything over 30k a year!
In that environment would you want to risk your job? Hell no! If I were making 50k a year I would feel fucking rich and be greatful to work 12 hours a day. In that environment where these poor saps would do anything to take your job to feed your kids you have to suck it up. This isn't 1999 anymore.
I remember 12 years ago when I was young, that many people called in sick once a month or took a vacation Friday etc. These folks got laid off in 2001 as soon as the shit hit hte fan. Until the economy improves and there are more jobs than applicants this will continue. In addition with Europe at risk of going into a full great depression if the banking system collapses I would say there is considerable risk right now. Even if the US economy is adding more low wage jobs now than before this will sharply reverse if citigroup, chase, and BOA all go out of business once every bank in Europe also collapses too. It is very serious until governments learn to live within their means.
Re:I just got back from a job fair today (Score:5, Insightful)
> Until the economy improves and there are more jobs than applicants this will continue
Ever considered U.S. economy is in deep shit because of its workers being overworked, exhausted, because they learned to keep low profile.
ever considered insufficient loyalty from employers results in insufficient loyalty from employees?
Re:I just got back from a job fair today (Score:4, Informative)
And because people are working two jobs worth, meaning other people are out of work and there's less demand for everything as a result.
Re:I just got back from a job fair today (Score:5, Insightful)
sure someone working 12hrs a day is producing two jobs' worth? i'd rather bet on 2/3 worth of a rested, relaxed worker. maybe even just 1/2 worth of a positively motivated worker.
What has been found in actual studies was that a person working 60 hours per week for six weeks and a person working 40 hours per week for six weeks produce the same amount of work. No gain whatsoever from slaving extra 20 hours a week.
However, after six weeks you have one person being totally tired and one person fit. From then on, the one doing 40 hour weeks will be more productive.
Re:I just got back from a job fair today (Score:5, Interesting)
If companies were prevented from overworking their employees, unemployment would immediately drop steeply.
That is the original reason for time and a half. To generate higher employment.
If you required straight time pay for every hour worked by exempt employees over 50 hours, it would cut unemployment immediately.
Likewise, if you required that exempt employees must supervise at least 3 other employees, you would end the abuse to the "exempt" status which has grown over the last few decades. There was a time when exempt employees were all mostly management.
Re:I just got back from a job fair today (Score:5, Insightful)
Hell no! If I were making 50k a year I would feel fucking rich and be greatful to work 12 hours a day. In that environment where these poor saps would do anything to take your job to feed your kids you have to suck it up. This isn't 1999 anymore.
Congratulations, you're well on the way to becoming a citizen of the 3rd world. Someone else will be greatful to take 40k a year to work 14 hours a day. Someone else will beat them to the job as 30k to live on site and do 16hr shifts 7 days a week would be a huge step up for them. And someone else will be fine taking 20k to do that work.
This is why guaranteed working conditions are necessary. Without minimums competition doesn't drive wealth, it drives a race to the bottom. Booms are the exception, not the rule.
Re:I just got back from a job fair today (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I just got back from a job fair today (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I just got back from a job fair today (Score:4, Insightful)
No other solutions? Guaranteed working conditions are NOT necessary. We can have decent working conditions with much softer approaches than naked and clumsy dictation to employers. Make the environment worker friendly, so that businesses have to compete for workers. How? Well, for one, health care that is not tied to employment. The US has tried for universal health care many times over the last 100 years, and each time it was scuttled because businesses saw that lack as leverage they could use against their employees, and wanted to preserve their power.
Then all this crap about denying vacations, paying peanuts, and looking upon financial responsibility and independence as a threat and employees who practice that as "flight risks", would be, quite simply, bad business. Give employees some realistic options, make businesses actually have to compete for employees, and they will not be able to get away with the stunning amount of crap they can pull now. We fought the Civil War over the issue of slavery. One thing that conflict showed is that free people make better workers than slaves. So long as the Union had the will, the Confederacy despite having more land and an easier climate never had a real chance of winning that war. In large part that's because a significant part of their manpower came from slaves who could hardly be expected to be enthusiastic workers let alone fighters. Sure, they had a much lower population even when slaves are fully included, but why was their population so much lower? They had no chance of winning on the battlefields, and only poor chances of winning by other means such as obtaining foreign aid, or demoralizing or fatiguing the Union into giving up. Brilliant generalship could never be enough to make up for the fundamental imbalance. Their slave economy system simply was not as good at harnessing the potential of the land. That's a big reason why they were so badly outnumbered. Their whole war effort was doomed before they started, and they knew it.
Yet here we are today, busting unions like crazy, doing all we can to beat workers down into indentured servitude, and vilifying the unemployed as lazy losers, because many of us have been sold on the idea that this will lead to greater productivity.
Time famine? Really??? (Score:4, Insightful)
Harddrive holocaust (Score:5, Funny)
Tell me about it.
The harddrive holocaust last year threw us into a great data-storage depression; Can't even get a 1TB drive for under $100.
Quoth the Expert... (Score:5, Insightful)
'Every other country understands that this makes people healthier and creates a better workforce.'"
No, every other country isn't ruled by supersized multinational corporations who can co-opt every government process, override any legal review, and sidestep any political controversy, if they pay enough. America's government can be properly classified now as "Dollar." That, right there, is what is causing the problem -- it's not that the government doesn't understand, it's that the government doesn't care.
Re:Quoth the Expert... (Score:5, Interesting)
It is the new U.S.A: a government by the people who have money for maintaining ownership of the people who dont have money. Figure out a way to become the highest campain donor or support a candidate that works cheaper. [/snark]
Re:Quoth the Expert... (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't think its the corporations this time, its the MBA "executives" and the general attitude that the populace falls into 2 broad categories: "them and their mates", and "the little people".
In essence, it means they think they do so much, are so under-rewarded, exceptionally talented, and deserve everything the world has for them, and also that the little people (ie you n me) are just replaceable peasants they can grind into the ground if they haven't already started to replace us with outsourced 'resources'.
The whole western world needs to shrink the difference in equity between the tiers of the workforce. Someone getting a million dollar bonus didn't do anything to deserve that more than the baker who made his sandwiches did that day. Until we start to solve that, all the abuses and failed economics will continue to thrive.
Re:Quoth the Expert... (Score:4, Funny)
I'm in the middle of a winter storm, you insensitive southern hemisphere clod!
It's a cultural thing, no big deal. (Score:5, Interesting)
Different cultures have different attitudes about work/life balance. I get the shakes if I'm away from work for more than a couple days.
Not enough (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not that I feel like I can't take vacation, but with only 2 weeks/year, I feel like I need to save it for something special. If I had 4 weeks (or more), I'd be more likely to take more little trips here and there or even use vacation as a personal day to stay home, but as it is, I try to save up my vacation for a big trip.
I'd rather that my company moved to a paid time off pool for both sick and vacation days since I so rarely use sick days.
Re:Not enough (Score:5, Informative)
What kind of slave driver company would only give 2 weeks of vacation per year??? I don't know anyone that has less than 5-6 weeks per year.
In the USA? I don't know any non-executive that has that much vacation unless they've been at the company for a long time.
When I negotiated for my last job, I tried hard to get another week of vacation, they refused, but instead gave me 3% higher salary. I don't understand that logic at all, why refuse to give another week (2%) of vacation, trading it for a 3% bump in salary? I didn't stay there long enough to even use all of my 2 weeks of vacation due to some dissatisfaction in other areas. But at my new job, I got a firm 2 weeks (after 3 years it's 3 weeks)
Re:Not enough (Score:4, Interesting)
Yes. and its even worse. (Score:5, Informative)
the catch here, is in the name of the sitcom - '9 to 5'. you see, back 20-25 years ago, the situation in america was so that you worked in private corporations in between those hours in general. actually not only in america - it was so in many other parts of the world (maybe except japan).
but look at it now - 7 in the evening is the normal time when work stops in almost entire private sector. in the last 25 years, somewhere in between, the hour we got out of work has gone from 5 p.m. to 7 p.m. and this did not happen only in america - almost any part of the world. wages ? they did not increase in proportion to inflation.
so we are working more, (25% more on average at least), but getting paid less. and everything is ship shape, as far as the current economic system and corporations are concerned.
would you expect paid vacations to be something that corporations would smile at, in such an environment ?
Re:Yes. and its even worse. (Score:5, Funny)
hmm. isn't Corporate America is much more like this [imdb.com] nowadays:
Bob Slydell: You see, what we're actually trying to do here is, we're trying to get a feel for how people spend their day at work... so, if you would, would you walk us through a typical day, for you?
Peter Gibbons: Yeah.
Bob Slydell: Great.
Peter Gibbons: Well, I generally come in at least fifteen minutes late, ah, I use the side door - that way Lumbergh can't see me, heh heh - and, uh, after that I just sorta space out for about an hour.
Bob Porter: Da-uh? Space out?
Peter Gibbons: Yeah, I just stare at my desk; but it looks like I'm working. I do that for probably another hour after lunch, too. I'd say in a given week I probably only do about fifteen minutes of real, actual, work.
good to break (Score:5, Interesting)
It's unhealthy to work non-stop and it can't be good for your work. I always come back feeling recharged. Occasionally a colleague has had significant holiday remaining at the year-end and our bosses certainly weren't applauding, they told them to take it ASAP.
Employees not taking holidays is also a known fraud risk. Employees committing fraud commonly do not take holidays because they need to keep covering their tracks. The story can be similar for incompetent employees. If they're not at work for a week complaints are more likely to make it to someone who might start asking questions.
In high-risk jobs it's not unusual for week-long holiday breaks to be absolutely mandatory (one of the findings from the Bearings Bank collapse).
US management culture (Score:5, Insightful)
I worked for the Australian branch of a multinational, when we got put under the management of the US branches.
Now this was done because we were putting our releases on time, on budget, while the US branches were constantly missing deadlines and getting hit by penalty payments. So we were basically moved to make their departments figures look better.
The US managers kept coming out, looking at what we were doing and how hard we were working, and immediately deciding that if they could take our 4 weeks annual leave off us, we'd be even more productive! They could not get their heads around the idea that we were able to put in that much effort because we knew that when crunch finished we'd be able to take a couple of weeks to rest and recover before the next sprint. If you don't get time off, then you've got to pace yourself.
We never got it through their heads, and eventually we were written off as culturally lazy, and sold off. Even though we were the ones hitting deadlines, and they were always running late.
Vacation? What vacation? (Score:4, Insightful)
At my company, we did away with vacations. You get no vacation time. At. All.
But that was just for starters, we also did away with sick time. None.
Personal days? Don't make me laugh.
I am proud to say that was my initiative.
One might think this could have some impact on moral. But when asked during on camera interviews, how much would people have to pay you to leave? Some said at least double, and most said they couldn't even think of a number.
If you want to know how that's possible, then Google ROWE. Results Only Work Environment. And you'll understand why.
I give talks about our transition to ROWE, and it's been nothing but phenomenal.
David
Re:Vacation? What vacation? (Score:4, Interesting)
Yes, I was being hyperbolic to make a point and get attention.... :D
We did away with formal vacation time, sick time, etc.
You have unlimited amounts of it.
ROWE is a system where an employeer treats their employees like competent adults who know how to manage their time.
Does everyone know how to do that? No. And those people fail to get good results under ROWE and get fired.
Is measuring results hard? It's as easy or as hard as you want to make it. You can do 360 Reviews and all that BS if you want. Or you can keep it more informal, like we do.
ROWE increases productivity and employee's become amazingly loyal.
The biggest difficulty with it is for the boss(es) who feel like they are somehow losing control. Who fear that the day after they start ROWE no one will come into the office anymore. Know what really happens? People come into the office, they get work done, and they feel far, far less stress.
It is amazing. Its simple. It works. And of all the BS systems that have come and gone, this is the one that just flat out does what it says.
We'd never consider going back. Ever.
Re:Vacation? What vacation? (Score:5, Interesting)
>Yes, I was being hyperbolic to make a point and get attention.... :D
And furthermore, if you like ROWE so much, why don't you go fill in the ROWE article on Wikipedia with some actual facts or state some actual facts here instead of shouting complete utter nonsense?
1. How does it keep managers from being abusive?
2. How does "no paid time off" not translate into no time off?
3. How is management expected to come up with metrics to measure productivity when every way of measuring productivity I've seen come down the pike consist of 1 part actual measurement and 99 parts BS?
4. If informal metrics (like you say you use) are used, how are YOY comparisons made? How does that combat favoritism and backstabbing?
5. Like other people have asked, how does this not mean unrealistic expectations over time? You can only pile on geometric rates of improvement for so long.
But I suspect that you will answer none of these.
--
BMO
First hand experience (Score:5, Interesting)
I used my vacation time this year. First time in 13 years I've actually taken a full vacation. Two weeks later I was let go. Luckily I have a new job already but this is a very real problem.
As for the reason I was let go? It was trumped up BS. I was a model employee, multiple promotions, commendations etc. Never had I been under any disciplinary action.
Re:First hand experience (Score:4, Insightful)
Let's just say, it's a computer company with a very fruity name.
Vacation. Right.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Not Just Vacation (Score:5, Interesting)
My company actually got rid of PTO last year (Score:4, Interesting)
They exchanged it for a program where you "ask your manager for time off". Fine if you are a confident employee with a good manager and a good relationship with them. Not fine if you are timid or have a bad manager and bad relationship with them. Fine for the company because they win either way.
This is why the Japanese are becoming extinct (Score:5, Interesting)
There have been countless stories on the subject and they all point to the same thing -- insane work hours primarily to present an image of someone who works hard. The cost to their health and their humanity all be damned. The government officially encourages a return to sane work habits and schedules, but the government workers aren't setting a great example. An ex-girlfriend I know works for the Japanese government, works insane hours despite her current bad health and says her boss works until 3am and comes in to work at 10am.
Why is there a decline in birth rates? Why are there more old people than young people? What is the long term cost and prognosis of this? Yeah... just look to the Japanese to see what we're in for if this keeps going on.
In California, at least you get paid. (Score:5, Informative)
California law treats vacation as accrued wages. [ca.gov] If you don't take your vacation days, the employer must pay you for them at the end of employment.
Still, many employers prefer to pay than let their employees take time off.
Data on European paid holidays and work hours (Score:5, Informative)
Most comments seem to origin in the US. Some contributors may be interested in the situation in Europe. Here the data for the three biggest European economies.
-------------------
Paid Leave
European Union requires all its member states to guarantee by law minimally four weeks of paid leave for all employees.
Average paid holiday days per year for full-time employees in 2008:
- Germany 30 days, plus 10.5 days public holidays
- France 25 days, plus 11 days public holidays
- United Kingdom 24.7 days, plus 8 days public holidays
-------
Working hours
Actual average weekly work hours for full-time employees in Europe
- United Kingdom 40,9 hours (2008)
- Germany 38.8 hours (2010)
- France 38,4 hours (2008)
-------------------
And no, my experience in four European countries (UK, Germany, Switzerland, Czech Republic) suggests that workers are not punished in any way if they take their vacations.
Yes, they do. (Score:4, Interesting)
.
I was once told by my manager that I could take vacation when, and only when, the project I was working on was finished. It was a two-year project that was dreamed up by my non-technical manager (the CIO, believe it or not) without my input (or the technical input from any other technology people in the company) and was doomed to failure because it would never work. My manager was looking for a scapegoat to assign blame to, as he finally realized his pet project was the fiasco I told him it would be.
Meanwhile, I am getting emails from Human Resources telling me that I have to take my vacation time or lose it.
It is a no win situation for technical people.
Netflix has the right solution on this topic......
Re:So what's the answer? (Score:4, Informative)
Almost all american workers are "At will" not contract. At will means they can be and often are fired at anytime for no reason with no prior warning.
Re:So what's the answer? (Score:5, Insightful)
I've seen cases where the employer thinks it is work ethic, employees are truly just terrified and afraid. No one wants to be the first one to look like they are slacking off.
Upper management has to take the steps themselves, telling people "I only will respond to a fire or equivalent call after hours", leaving on time and not coming in extra early. That sends a message more thoroughly than anything you could say.
Even if you decide to quietly check your email after hours, never send one after hours.
Make your actions speak for you, it's the only way to truly convince others.
Re:So what's the answer? (Score:4, Insightful)
I'll just stop you there.
No they aren't. Americans suffer from 'presenteeism', people coming to work for more hours than is necessary and achieving no more than folks working half the time in other countries. It's a sickness. It puts appearance over output and it does nobody any real good.
As an example - I work for a huge multinational. A couple of years back several thousand Americans were laid off, while the workforce was held static in Europe and Australia, despite the generally higher costs in these places.
Re:It's important to set precedent early. (Score:5, Insightful)
I think I found your problem...
Re:It's important to set precedent early. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:they punish employees, period (Score:4, Informative)
I dunno if you knew this, but the United States is not a household.
Re:they punish employees, period (Score:4, Insightful)
it doesn't mean the laws of economics don't apply
It does mean that those stupid "household" analogies don't apply, though. The laws of economics are vastly different for governments than they are for households.
Re:they punish employees, period (Score:5, Insightful)
They pay for more in absolute dollars but they pay a far lower tax rate.
When you add in fixed taxes and license fees, the difference is even more dramatic.
Top 400 familes pay about 17.5% total tax load.
The top 2.67% pay about 23% total tax load
The folks at 60% to 80% pay about 40% total tax load.
The folks at 20% (poverty) pay about 25% total tax load.
To the wealthy, $3.70 in gasoline taxes for a tank of gasoline is basically a 0% rate. To the poor, $3.70 in gasoline taxes is about 5% of their weekly income.
Same for cigarette, phone taxes, booze, sales tax, etc.
Property tax appears in your rent or in your mortgage. It runs from about 5% for the poor (but lower as they share housing) to about 3% for the middle class to about 2% for the wealthy.
I.e.
A $1000/year property tax bill embedded in their rent for a poor person is a huge chunk of their income.
A $30,000 tax bill for the top 2.67% is about 2%.
The poor spend most of their income on taxable purchases. The wealthy do not. So an 8% sales tax load hits the poor for 8% of their income while it hits the wealthy for under 1%.
Google "who pays state taxes" and also look here http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html#table3 [taxfoundation.org]
The media owned by the wealthy has really been pushing the propaganda that the lower 50% of income earners pay no taxes.
But the more accurate statement is the bottom 50% pay low or no federal income taxes ( tho that changes big time this year now that hte earned income tax credit has been removed) while the wealthy pay a much lower percentage of their income as taxes.
It is accurate to say they pay more taxes in absolute dollars. But did you realize if the tax bill for running the country was divided evenly, it works out to over $11,000 per citizen? More like $33,000 per working person. And that's ignoring social security taxes.
Re:they punish employees, period (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Dear Hugh: (Score:5, Insightful)
A few people have stated that they work for free because if they don't they might lose their job. It is this sort of short sighted, cowardly thinking that got you into this mess. If everyone refused to work for free then this abuse would stop. I was in an hourly job that paid overtime. I was "promoted" to a salaried position. If I worked normal hours it was a raise in pay. As I was no longer being paid for overtime I stopped working overtime except for the occasional emergency. I was not fired. Management asked me once why I would not do overtime and I told them I don't work for free, but would be happy to discuss over time pay. They never brought it up again.
In the USA there seems to be this myth that it is best for everyone to make their own way in the world without any help. The government should get out of the way and let people succeed. The reality is that USA citizens let big companies walk all over them and the reward this behaviour by voting in governments friendly to big business and the rich.
You might want to consider unions, and voting for a government or party that is for regular citizens not the mega wealthy. A party in favour of civilized labour law that includes no firing without cause after a probation period, paid annual vacation, paid overtime, and other laws that are simply fair and levelling the playing field between employee and employer.
Re:South Korea (Score:5, Informative)
I think Japan is worse. You are expected to take NO vacation (even though the company legally HAS to give you 10 working days off). So, other than national holidays that everyone else has off, you are expected to be at work. And for extra fun, you are expected to be at the office until your boss leaves. And most Japanese bosses are 50 year old men who are estranged from their wives and hence work til 8pm at night every night to avoid having to go home.
The only exceptions to this seem to be for getting married. Then you are typically expected to take 1-2 weeks off.
This is my understanding after working with different companies in Japan over the past 15+ years, although I haven't worked in Japan myself. Maybe someone in Japan can give their input.
How is S. Korea worse?