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Palm's webOS Root Image Leaks Out

Soulskill posted more than 4 years ago | from the i'm-sure-their-devs-are-pleased dept.

Cellphones 176

Kohenkatz writes "As noted in PreCentral.net's forums, the 'webOS Reset Doctor' has been leaked. It includes the webOS root image. From the article: 'Code-inclined individuals on the PreCentral forums have already cracked open the ROM and are getting an unfettered glimpse at the Palm's new platform, which, for the layman, means it should open the doors for some crazy Pre hacking and possibly hint, by way of unfinished / unused code, at what's to come for the platform — and, if we're really lucky, maybe someone will be able to look at this and move us one step closer to an unlocked Pre that could jump onto Verizon's network. Amusingly, you also get to see all the comments left by the devs in the code, guaranteeing a few good chuckles from others who can relate.'" People have already uncovered icons for MSN and AOL, as well as references to the Palm Eos, a rumored successor to the Centro line.

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176 comments

an obama leaked out of my ass (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28278265)

before I had a chance to drop it off at the whitehouse :(

Will this make be an iPhone killer? (1)

stavros-59 (1102263) | more than 4 years ago | (#28278293)

The benefits of a real smartphone with the convenience of a monopoly provider doesn't quite do it for me.

Re:Will this make be an iPhone killer? (1)

jo42 (227475) | more than 4 years ago | (#28279195)

Not until you can develop Pre apps in something other than Javascript/HTML/CSS...

Re:Will this make be an iPhone killer? (1, Interesting)

Em Ellel (523581) | more than 4 years ago | (#28279599)

Not until you can develop Pre apps in something other than Javascript/HTML/CSS...

Like what? Objective-Crap? Puh-lease. JS/HTML/CSS is a bold choice - but makes perfect sense. You have all the web developers and all the flash developers who are already trained in it and you can develop on ANY platform you want - so a lot easier to get apps created faster. Now if only they would release the SDK!!!!

-Em

Re:Will this make be an iPhone killer? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28279827)

You have all the web developers and all the flash developers who are already trained in it

You're wrong, Flash developers are trained only in Flash and most of the time don't even know how to use it correctly. Anything else scares them to death and claim the world don't understand them.

By the way, currently there is no Flash in the Pre (Thank God)

Re:Will this make be an iPhone killer? (1, Insightful)

Em Ellel (523581) | more than 4 years ago | (#28280311)

You have all the web developers and all the flash developers who are already trained in it

You're wrong, Flash developers are trained only in Flash and most of the time don't even know how to use it correctly. Anything else scares them to death and claim the world don't understand them.

Erm, What do you think ActionScript is???

-Em

Good for developers (3, Interesting)

StreetStealth (980200) | more than 4 years ago | (#28279727)

This could actually be very good for developers versus the iPhone.

The plan is, from my understanding, that the WebOS SDK should allow devs to build capable but high-level apps in a Javascript-style environment (though I'm pretty sure these things are still compiled). Thus a lower barrier to entry than even the iPhone, at the expense of more intensive system-level access.

If Pre homebrew software doesn't require firmware modification like the iPhone does (does the Pre even need to be jailbroken?), that goes a long way toward legitimizing it to a mainstream audience, giving potential Pre developers two possible avenues for development.

Re:Will this make be an iPhone killer? (2, Insightful)

pushf popf (741049) | more than 4 years ago | (#28279325)

At the risk of being branded a heretic, if I wanted a crappy computer with a tiny screen and keyboard, I'd buy a Sinclair.

Why does every chunk of plastic in the world want to be my computer?

Re:Will this make be an iPhone killer? (2, Insightful)

ArcherB (796902) | more than 4 years ago | (#28280201)

At the risk of being branded a heretic, if I wanted a crappy computer with a tiny screen and keyboard, I'd buy a Sinclair.

Why does every chunk of plastic in the world want to be my computer?

Because you can't put your computer in your shirt pocket and take it with you everywhere you go. It's not about trying to be your computer. It's about having a device like your computer with you at all times.

Re:Will this make be an iPhone killer? (3, Insightful)

pushf popf (741049) | more than 4 years ago | (#28280557)

It's about having a device like your computer with you at all times.

I have a device like my computer with me at all times when I want to be near a computer.

It's my computer.

If people only realized how much crap they've been programmed to "need", there would be riots in the streets, complete with pitchforks and burning torches.

Nobody really cares if you buy an iPhone or anything else as long as it ensures that you'll pay them $50/month forever, for a "data plan".

Just for an example, most of the Northeast US has great water. A lot of it is some of the best water on the planet. We still buy it @ $1+/bottle and it's a huge industry based on nothing except marketing-created need.

Has anybody besides me noticed that the goal of almost every business is to get you to pay them every month for something you don't need and never new you wanted until they decided for you?

Re:Will this make be an iPhone killer? (1)

ArcherB (796902) | more than 4 years ago | (#28280653)

I like having (most of) the power of my computer in the palm of my hand, wherever I go. I enjoy being able to browse the web, play a quick game or send some emails as I'm waiting for a table or out on a smoke break.

If you don't like this sort of thing, then don't buy one of these. May I recommend the JitterBug. [jitterbug.com]

Re:Will this make be an iPhone killer? (1)

pushf popf (741049) | more than 4 years ago | (#28280959)

If you don't like this sort of thing, then don't buy one of these. May I recommend the JitterBug.

I know it was intended as a small poke, but a small light single-purpose device that performs flawlessly is miles ahead of a complex expensive device that does a bunch of stuff poorly.

Just to make things clear, I'm not a Luddite, and actually like (and develop) really cool technology. I just find it amusing that people will just about drool over the capabilities of a small device that wouldn't make it as a kids toy if it were full-size.

Call me when it has excellent voice and/or thought recognition and a non-intrusive wide-screen HUD with a good refresh rate.

Re:Will this make be an iPhone killer? (1)

Em Ellel (523581) | more than 4 years ago | (#28279521)

Will this make be an iPhone killer?

The benefits of a real smartphone with the convenience of a monopoly provider doesn't quite do it for me.

Doubt it. You can't kill stupidity - general crowd will always go for style over substance. The best Palm can hope for is getting the geek crowd that actually understands why Pre is better, but even they can frequently be swayed by the "ooooh - shiny".

-Em

Re:Will this make be an iPhone killer? (2, Interesting)

rho (6063) | more than 4 years ago | (#28279629)

Why is the Pre better? Can you give specific examples?

Re:Will this make be an iPhone killer? (3, Insightful)

hax0r_this (1073148) | more than 4 years ago | (#28279915)

Keyboard, multi-tasking and a much more open development model. To name a few.

Re:Will this make be an iPhone killer? (4, Insightful)

rho (6063) | more than 4 years ago | (#28280531)

The keyboard, to me, is a wash. Some like it, some like the iPhone's virtual keyboard. It's a matter of preferences.

As for the others, they're potential benefits. Open development model? Linux has that, but it didn't help it take the world by storm. Multi-tasking? Sure, I suppose it would be better in some theoretical sense, but you're making a judgement based on brochure bullet-points. That's why I asked for specific examples. Is it a better email platform? I don't know. Better casual gaming platform? I don't know. Better music player? I don't know. Better development platform? I don't know.

We don't know because it's brand new and we don't know much about it, and certainly don't know anything long-term. The iPhone is a known entity, with a decently long track record, and therefore we know the pros and cons. With the Pre you can assume a bunch of benefits from the bullet-points, but they're just guesses.

I say this as a satisfied Blackberry user, so I'm not fanboying the iPhone.

Re:Will this make be an iPhone killer? (1)

OverZealous.com (721745) | more than 4 years ago | (#28280977)

Mod parent up.

This is a clear, level-headed response to the general "fanboy" problem, for any product line.

Re:Will this make be an iPhone killer? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28281175)

Absolutely agreed. The Pre is bringing out all the people who can't afford an iPhone (or can't switch to ATT), and can't get their job to give them a Blackberry, yet don't have the self awareness to realize they don't really need either. The response is so "me too", and Em Ellel's defensive, reaction posting in this thread confirms it.

(anonymous since I moderated)

Re:Will this make be an iPhone killer? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28281117)

Multi-tasking? Sure, I suppose it would be better in some theoretical sense, but you're making a judgement based on brochure bullet-points.

I take it you've never experienced the pain of trying to run an IM program on an iPhone... Phone call? Oh, disconnected. Want to play a game? Disconnected. Want to turn the screen off? Disconnected. You can only control music through the double-tap home button, so no picking a specific song.

Seriously, you think multitasking is only some vague, hand waving, fairy dust 'possible' benefit? Seriously?

Re:Will this make be an iPhone killer? (1)

Kelbear (870538) | more than 4 years ago | (#28281041)

I would definitely prefer a keyboard over the iphone's virtual keyboard.

Multi-tasking is potentially useful. Stat-tracking applications and IM-applications in the background could be handy. Hopefully someone will take the initiative to provide these for use.

However, I'm not that optimistic about the open development model. Apple has immense momentum going with Itunes and the Appstore. The more open development model is more attractive for those who just want to put out a nice useful tool for the public good. But I think that most of the developers who can be incentivized by making money will prefer the large audience of the appstore/itunes, and the proven revenue channel that it provides.

Buyers like that the iphone appears to have an app for everything(per Apple's ad-campaigning). They might not realize that other phones offer apps that are banned or unsupported on the iphone, but they don't care until they're made aware of these possibilities. They just know that the iphone has apps out the wazoo, and the palm pre has a mere fraction of that. If they can't sell the Palm Pre to a huge audience, the developers might stick to pitching to the larger iphone audience...which in turn results in less apps for the Palm Pre. But who knows? Perhaps they'll develop for the Palm Pre anyway because of how hard it is to get noticed amongst the competitive glut on the iphone.

Re:Will this make be an iPhone killer? (1, Informative)

Em Ellel (523581) | more than 4 years ago | (#28280263)

Why is the Pre better? Can you give specific examples?

OK here are a few examples of top of my head:

  * Faster CPU
  * Better memory handling
  * Multitasking (that works!)
  * Keyboard
  * Ability to link quick launch to any button
  * Standard, easy to develop for platform
  * Ability to develop for on ANY OS instead of being locked in
  * No big-brother having absolute power over approving your apps
  * No app kill-switch
  * Universal search
  * Ability to sync music to multiple sources
  * Ability to buy music directly on handset

I can go on....

-Em

What's so great about webOS? (1)

Tetsujin (103070) | more than 4 years ago | (#28281023)

Why is the Pre better? Can you give specific examples?

OK here are a few examples of top of my head:

Here's my deal:

For roughly ten years, I've used devices with the old PalmOS (v3-v5). That period is now coming to an end - and after all the bad design decisions they've heaped on in order to let developers continue to work with the same assumptions they used in 1996 (i.e., m68K device with all storage in RAM) the old platform is just a mess.

Now, when looking at the options I've got to replace my old Treo at some point, I'm not liking my options. iPhone isn't a great option for someone who likes to use their phone as a portable computer (what can I say? Sometimes I'm out somewhere with some time to kill, and I want to hack some code...) - Android or webOS could be possibilities, but the primary development models for these devices (i.e. target a VM for the Android, or write a web-style application for webOS) don't seem like a good fit for an embedded device.

The history of PalmOS is one of the things that makes me very hesitant to get a Pre without being very sure they've got their heads screwed on right with regard to the OS architecture this time around. PalmOS was a good design - for a handheld in the late nineties. Where they went wrong was sticking with that model after it stopped making any kind of sense at all. The combination of PACE (as the primary means of running applications on the device) and NVFS is an affront to everything that's decent in the world.

So I really gotta repeat the earlier question: what's so great about webOS? The idea of an OS where you write apps in HTML, CSS, and Javascript sound hideous to me, frankly...

Re:Will this make be an iPhone killer? (3, Insightful)

Old97 (1341297) | more than 4 years ago | (#28281279)

I guess you aren't familiar with the iPhone 3Gs yet. Compare that to the Pre in terms of speed. Also, consider real speed an not theoretical (i.e. CPU) speed. The iPhone 3Gs has more than just the CPU doing its processing. At work we have a Pre user. He's now wishing he had an iPhone 3G (not even the newest one) because the Pre is so much slower.

Please explain what you mean by "better memory handling" and try to compare iPhone 3Gs with the Pre, not last year's models.

Isn't the "standard easy to develop platform" Javascript and HTML5 running on Webkit. That's what iPhone 1.0 launched with in 2007! Objective C is for folks who want native speed. That option (native code) is not yet supported for Pre developers.

"Ability to develop for ANY OS"? How is that? If it's Javascript and HTML5 it will also run on the iPhone and Android. So what is special about Pre?

"No big-brother" and "No app kill-switch" are security vulnerabilities that can endanger more than the device itself. It's a shared network. Ever use a PC? Do you like how any there is not way to be sure as where your applications really come from? Let's see how well that works out.

"Ability to synch music to multiple sources" - You can do that with an iPhone if you really want to. The iPhone is a USB mass storage device. Tell us about how the Pre does it automagically.

What do you mean by "Universal search"?

The ability to buy music directly to the handset is part of iPhone 3.0.

Keep going on, please.

Re:Will this make be an iPhone killer? (1)

bnenning (58349) | more than 4 years ago | (#28281465)

Ever use a PC? Do you like how any there is not way to be sure as where your applications really come from? Let's see how well that works out.

So you would prefer that Windows and OS X refuse to run any applications not specifically approved by Microsoft or Apple? That would do wonders for innovation.

Post "first post!" (1)

jimbudncl (1263912) | more than 4 years ago | (#28278303)

I was trying for Pre "first post!", but my existential metaphysical co-processor had a meltdown.

Dich Chaney & George W Bush (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28278349)

The most powerful super villain since Hitler, and his bumbling sidekick ruined America and the world.

That's what evil and dumb people do.

So don't vote for people like them, you bumbling yokels.

It doesn't work that way (3, Informative)

schnell (163007) | more than 4 years ago | (#28278383)

If we're really lucky, maybe someone will be able to look at this and move us one step closer to an unlocked Pre that could jump onto Verizon's network.

I thought people would eventually learn this after all the discussion of "why can't I move my iPhone to Verizon?" In the US, Verizon and Sprint use CDMA. Each phone has to be developed for each specific network. AT&T and T-Mobile use GSM, the worldwide standard where phones can be "unlocked" and moved to other networks (as long as the phone support the frequencies used by those networks). So don't hold your breath waiting for a Verizon Pre.

Re:It doesn't work that way (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28278453)

As you just answered yourself.. Sprint and Verizon use CDMA. The Pre being on Sprint means that it jumping to Verizon is very possible and is in fact nothing like the iPhone.

Re:It doesn't work that way (4, Informative)

_merlin (160982) | more than 4 years ago | (#28279347)

Yeah, but with the US CDMA networks (and, incidentally KDDI in Japan, the Korean CDMA networks and the recently-decommissioned Australian CDMA network), the subscriber identifier is hardcoded into the handset, and the home network identifier is stored in the handset, but can usually be changed. With GSM/UMTS, the equivalents of both pieces of information (IMSI and home network) are stored in a removable SIM card (in Europe, it's mandatory for it to be replaceable, but I've heard that some devices on T-Mobile USA like automated weather stations have it soldered onto the board).

So to switch networks with a GSM/UMTS handset, you need to "unlock" the handset (tell it to accept a SIM card with a different home network to the one that it's "locked" to) and then swap in a new SIM, and it should all be good, provided the handset can tune the frequencies you need.

But with a CDMA handset, you need to "unlock" the phone (convincing it to allow you to change the home network identifier), and change the home network identifier. That's the easy part. You now need to get the subscriber identifier out of the handset and convince the new carrier to register it for you. They're usually very reluctant to do this - they want to sell you a locked-down handset with their customised firmware.

So while technically incorrect - you actually can switch networks with a CDMA handset - his point still stands - it's practically impossible due to the pigheaded attitude prevalent at the carriers.

Re:It doesn't work that way (1)

CompMD (522020) | more than 4 years ago | (#28280771)

Also, some time ago, Verizon publicly declared they will permit any compatible CDMA device on their network.

Re:It doesn't work that way (1)

terrymr (316118) | more than 4 years ago | (#28281099)

I've even had companies that sell rebranded sprint service refuse to activate a sprint branded phone on their network, claiming the system they use to activate phones with the sprint network won't accept ESNs from sprint branded phones.

Re:It doesn't work that way (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28278463)

There's nothing fundamental about CDMA preventing the switch to verizon. Indeed, in europe, GSM uses CDMA as its underlying protocol, rather than the noisy, wasteful, fail-intolerant TDMA it used to use.

Re:It doesn't work that way (1)

corsec67 (627446) | more than 4 years ago | (#28278479)

Sprint absorbed Nextel, which isn't CDMA or GSM, but is iDen. They are phasing it out, but last year I got what turned out to be a Nextel phone from Sprint since CDMA doesn't interfere with radios as much.

iDen is similar to GSM in terms of interfering with radios.

Re:It doesn't work that way (2, Informative)

park3r (833325) | more than 4 years ago | (#28278507)

I read that the Palm Pre will hit Verizon in about six months [engadget.com] .

While you're right about moving phones between carriers, it doesn't seem to matter in this case.

Re:It doesn't work that way (1)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 4 years ago | (#28278747)

Wrong... Verizon and Sprint are CDMA. All you have to do to put a Sprint phone on the Verizon network is for Verizon to activate it.
What I don't get is why is everyone so hot for it to move to Verizon.
Sprint is several hundred dollars a year cheaper for the same plan. I have had no problems with converage on Sprint and there network is actually pretty fast.
As far as customer support I have not had any issues with them.
I wonder how much of the Sprint hate is left over and how much of it is current. And don't the people on slashdot know that Verizon is infamous for taking functionality out of phones and putting their own crappy slow interface on them? Sprint is actually pretty open about what you can install even on their feature phones.
When I asked Verizon about installing Opera mini on one of their Razors I was told that you couldn't. Of course the sales guy might have been an idiot.

That's what he said you halfwit (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28278837)

Wrong... Verizon and Sprint are CDMA.

Slashdorks getting dumber all the time. Soon they'll be too dumb to mash their keyboards at all, and that will be a good day.

Re:That's what he said you halfwit (1)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 4 years ago | (#28279923)

Actually it was a miss aimed reply. I was replying to the grandparent message but I must of hit the wrong reply tag. My bad.

It's the network (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 4 years ago | (#28279111)

What I don't get is why is everyone so hot for it to move to Verizon.

Probably because the people who complain live in areas where Verizon is perceived to provide a more reliable signal than Sprint. Might it have something to do with the scores of network technicians portrayed in Verizon's television ads?

Re:It's the network (1)

eln (21727) | more than 4 years ago | (#28279831)

Probably because the people who complain live in areas where Verizon is perceived to provide a more reliable signal than Sprint. Might it have something to do with the scores of network technicians portrayed in Verizon's television ads?

That's why I won't use Verizon...if all their techs are busy following that one guy around, how are they ever going to find time to fix the network?

Re:It's the network (1)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 4 years ago | (#28279979)

I vote for the ads. Frankly Verizon is the least geek friendly carrier out there. I don't like AT&T because of their politics involving things like community Fiber and Wifi. Anyone remember what they did in New Orleans? After the hurricane they offered the police the use of one of their buildings until New Orleans started to work on a community WiFi system then kicked them out. Or their statements on net neutrality?

Re:It doesn't work that way (1)

ezelkow1 (693205) | more than 4 years ago | (#28279733)

Definitely agree with this. I have a few friends that actually left verizon due to their nazi tactics on their phone. They had preinstalled banners and color schemes that the user was just flat out not allowed to change without hacking it all up. Back then there wasnt much knowledge on getting into the razrs to do it either. So they all left and went to either att or sprint.
I have sprint and have never had any issues with them, also like the fact the phones are not really locked down at all, I can do pretty much whatever I want with mine. It also helps that a sprint plan compared to an att plan is almost 40/mo cheaper with a corporate discount that just about anyone working for a large corp can get, and thats just a regular talk+text plan

Re:It doesn't work that way (1)

Em Ellel (523581) | more than 4 years ago | (#28280003)

What I don't get is why is everyone so hot for it to move to Verizon.

I've owned Sprint phones, Verizon phones, and currently AT&T phones. I can tell you this about Verizon:
.
Their service sucks - stupidity, bordering on maliciousness
Their handset selection sucks - they never have anything decent or anything recent
They love to cripple what little they DO have.
They are expensive compared to others.
.
All that said, I'd switch back to Verizon in a heartbeat if they had a decent phone (and Pre seems like a great phone).Why? Because unlike AT&T or Sprint, their service actually works everywhere, including places AT&T seems to think no one goes to - like inside buildings. When I had Verizon I used to make fun of all those people looking for signal, cause I could always take out my handset and get decent reception. Now I am one of the clowns who are forever searching for signal. Sad, really, but hey, I have a nicer handset.....

-Em

Re:It doesn't work that way (1)

Zerth (26112) | more than 4 years ago | (#28281391)

Everything you said is true.

One caveat, Verizon doesn't seem to cripple the newer blackberries, although they are dog slow about approving OS updates. Any BB put out in the last year that has a full GPS is usually unlocked for other mapping applications. Ditto with mp3 ringtones and bluetooth functionality.

And unlike other Verizon phones, you can get a dev license from RIM for 30 bucks and write your own code without asking mother-may-I.

Re:It doesn't work that way (5, Informative)

Kohenkatz (1166461) | more than 4 years ago | (#28278791)

Verizon will let you use ANY device on their network that conforms to the CDMA specifications. See http://www.engadget.com/2007/11/27/verizon-wireless-opens-network-to-any-apps-any-device-in-2008/ [engadget.com] This most likely includes the Pre, even without any modifications.

Re:It doesn't work that way (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28279121)

Unfortunately, this is not completely true. They wouldn't let me have a Sprint Touch Pro. I knew several people that did it while their *228 loophole was open. They told me that Sprint phones won't work on Verizon (we all know that's untrue). I had completely reprogrammed the phone with all of VZW's info. I went through all sorts or techs for a period of 2 weeks until I got so disgusted I left VZW and went to Sprint. I know that others have been more fortunate than me and have successfully activated other carriers phones on VZW. I wish everyone luck in doing this but have a backup plan in case VZW won't play ball with you.

Re:It doesn't work that way (1)

ZaMoose (24734) | more than 4 years ago | (#28278793)

Uhh, and the Pre is sold by Sprint, thus nuking your point (from orbit).

Re:It doesn't work that way (1)

Em Ellel (523581) | more than 4 years ago | (#28279759)

I thought people would eventually learn this after all the discussion of "why can't I move my iPhone to Verizon?" In the US, Verizon and Sprint use CDMA. Each phone has to be developed for each specific network. AT&T and T-Mobile use GSM, the worldwide standard where phones can be "unlocked" and moved to other networks (as long as the phone support the frequencies used by those networks). So don't hold your breath waiting for a Verizon Pre.

Just to add to the whole "You Are Wrong" reply crowd - you are wrong - but it is still very hard to transfer handset between Sprint and Verizon. They use same system and people (including myself) used to transfer handsets from Sprint to Verizon all the time - took come hacking (change home network ids and roaming lists), but its not technically impossible and with Verizon being notorious for never having any decent recent handsets, it was a necessity. But a number of years ago Verizon decided to be nasty and they now whitelist their own phones, so that when you try to activate a non-Verizon phone they refuse to. Its not a technical limitation - just a business stupidity on part of Verizon. I never understood it either, as they claim to loose money on handsets, so providing service without providing the handset should benefit them, no....

-Em

Amunition for Apple? (1)

thered2001 (1257950) | more than 4 years ago | (#28278539)

I wonder if this will help Apple launch a legal assault regarding the Pre's ability to masquerade as an iPod?

Re:Amunition for Apple? (1)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 4 years ago | (#28278783)

I really doubt that they will launch any legal assault.
Palm probably has a patent on syncing a PDA device with a PC or some such thing. Apple will at best just change the software so it doesn't work or will leave it. Other devices already sync with iTunes and Apple makes money when you buy music so why bother with a law suit?

Re:Amunition for Apple? (1)

Em Ellel (523581) | more than 4 years ago | (#28280097)

I really doubt that they will launch any legal assault.
Palm probably has a patent on syncing a PDA device with a PC or some such thing. Apple will at best just change the software so it doesn't work or will leave it. Other devices already sync with iTunes and Apple makes money when you buy music so why bother with a law suit?

You can't sync DRMed music from iTunes to Pre - so I doubt sales on iTunes is much of a motivator (non-DRMed music on iTunes store is a lot more expensive than on their competitors like AmazonMP3)

More likely knowing Apple's big brother mentality, they will do it in the Microsoft fashion - just introduce little changes that will break the Pre functionality and claim ignorance.

-Em

Re:Amunition for Apple? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28280607)

You can't sync DRMed music from iTunes to Pre - so I doubt sales on iTunes is much of a motivator (non-DRMed music on iTunes store is a lot more expensive than on their competitors like AmazonMP3)

iTunes doesn't sell DRMed music anymore, and they seem to still be doing brisk business...

Re:Amunition for Apple? (1)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 4 years ago | (#28280735)

iTunes is moving to or already has moved to all DRM free music and they still do sell a good amount of it. I did say they might block it in software but I see no chance they will block it in court. They could loose, it will cost money, and really could be some nasty PR for them. It could even push interest in anti-trust.

Re:Amunition for Apple? (1)

EXrider (756168) | more than 4 years ago | (#28279019)

The BlackBerry Desktop software has allowed you to sync iTunes libraries with crackberries for a while now.

Re:Amunition for Apple? (2, Interesting)

_merlin (160982) | more than 4 years ago | (#28279435)

Doesn't work the same way at all. iTunes produces an XML file detailing the contents of its library. The Blackberry (and, incidentally, Nokia) synchronisation software reads this file. You need to install a separate application from the handset vendor and use it to synchronise your music (iTunes is blissfully unaware of your Blackberry/Nokia). The Pre is a different kettle of fish - it masquerades as an iPod so iTunes will handle the synchronisation with no additional software.

What legal theory? (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 4 years ago | (#28279163)

I wonder if this will help Apple launch a legal assault regarding the Pre's ability to masquerade as an iPod?

Sega, Chamberlain, and Lexmark tried and failed to block Genesis-compatible game cartridges, LiftMaster-compatible garage door openers, and Lexmark-compatible toner cartridges in U.S. court, both before and after the DMCA. So I wonder what legal theory Apple might use for this.

Re:Amunition for Apple? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28279215)

I bet Palm is dying for Apple to sue. Prohibiting Palm's device from syncing to iTunes when Apple has a competative product... I smell anti-trust...

Re:Amunition for Apple? (1)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 4 years ago | (#28279875)

I don't think there is any chance of Apple suing Palm over this. It's much more likely that they will release a 'security update' to iTunes which 'accidentally' causes it to reject the Pre.

Unlocking it for verizon (3, Informative)

keeegan (1526067) | more than 4 years ago | (#28278583)

What does the phone's rom have to do with this? I've unlocked sprint treos for verizon. You just have to reprogram the prl on the cdma chip. No firmware/OS modification involved. Has something drastically changed, or does the op just not understand?

Intiguing comment? (1)

140Mandak262Jamuna (970587) | more than 4 years ago | (#28278625)

Amusingly, you also get to see all the comments left by the devs in the code, guaranteeing a few good chuckles from others who can relate

Really? How many people could relate to finding just one comment in an assembly language module?

MOV 1750 # RIP JSB

Re:Intiguing comment? (2, Interesting)

Hognoxious (631665) | more than 4 years ago | (#28279847)

Me, but only because I saw it mentioned in a book (Code Complete?) as an example of a bad comment.

"for the layman"? (2, Funny)

blcamp (211756) | more than 4 years ago | (#28278635)

[...] which, for the layman, means [...]

A layman wouldn't know what anything on this website would mean, much less TFA.

Re:"for the layman"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28278787)

[sig]
The problem with socialism is that they always run out of other people's money. - Margaret Thatcher
[/sig]
The problem with toryism is that they never run out of other people's money. - AC

Re:"for the layman"? (1)

EraserMouseMan (847479) | more than 4 years ago | (#28279031)

Basically it doesn't mean much for the layman. The iPhone has been hacked over and over many times. Developers/hackers/uber-geeks alike now have another cool piece of software to rip apart and discover and then make cool mods & bolt-ons. It's just a lot of fun. If you are only into using the phone for its intended purpose then this will be of little value to you.

Cool, but where are the kernel sources? (3, Interesting)

Qubit (100461) | more than 4 years ago | (#28278661)

Cracking open the ROM is nifty and all (although it might cause issues for you later if you want to develop on the platform), but what I still want to know is where are the Palm Pre Linux kernel sources?.

I've looked all over the Palm sites and even Googled [google.com] for it [google.com], but I haven't come up with anything but speculation. I can't believe that they're using a prebuilt kernel from TI, so what gives?

Re:Cool, but where are the kernel sources? (0)

Richard_at_work (517087) | more than 4 years ago | (#28278929)

So basically you are assuming its Linux based? Everything I have read suggests it is not.

Re:Cool, but where are the kernel sources? (1)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 4 years ago | (#28278985)

Uh, what have you been reading then? Wikipedia seems to think it is [wikipedia.org] and so does everything else I've read about it. Can you give even one source which suggests it runs something else?

The real question is whether it runs X11 like the Nokia 770/N800/N810, allowing it to run unmodified desktop apps.

Re:Cool, but where are the kernel sources? (1)

DNS-and-BIND (461968) | more than 4 years ago | (#28279525)

If you're citing wikipedia as a source, you're doing it wrong.

Re:Cool, but where are the kernel sources? (1)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 4 years ago | (#28279685)

I'm not citing Wikipedia as a source, I'm pointing out that Wikipedia, which does cite sources (including one for 'Linux-based' in the first paragraph) states that it is Linux based. I am also asking for a single example from the the grandparent's 'everything I have read', that provides a counter-example.

Re:Cool, but where are the kernel sources? (1)

marol (734015) | more than 4 years ago | (#28279773)

The real question is whether it runs X11 like the Nokia 770/N800/N810, allowing it to run unmodified desktop apps.

From a glance, it looks like drawing is done via directfb.

Re:Cool, but where are the kernel sources? (3, Informative)

larry bagina (561269) | more than 4 years ago | (#28279025)

Have you read anything about it? The root image is linux. That's a fact. You can verify it yourself if you want to.

The [wikipedia.org] Pre is the first Palm device to use webOS, the Linux based platform that replaces Palm's previous Palm OS. Developed from scratch for use in mobile phones - whereas Palm OS was originally designed for PDAs - webOS is capable of supporting built-in first party applications, as well as third party applications.

webOS [wikipedia.org] is a completely new operating system based on Linux.

Re:Cool, but where are the kernel sources? (4, Interesting)

piquadratCH (749309) | more than 4 years ago | (#28279151)

If it isn't Linux based, I'm wondering what stuff like this does in webOS.tar

./lib/modules/2.6.24-palm-joplin-3430/kernel/net/
./lib/modules/2.6.24-palm-joplin-3430/kernel/net/wifi/
./lib/modules/2.6.24-palm-joplin-3430/kernel/net/wifi/sd8xxx.ko

So, yes, it's Linux based.

Re:Cool, but where are the kernel sources? (1)

Hognoxious (631665) | more than 4 years ago | (#28279913)

Doesn't that mean they're obliged to release their source anyway (or will be, when the item ships)?

Re:Cool, but where are the kernel sources? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28280133)

Yes, and the pre has shipped.

I think currently, Palm is violating the GPL for the kernel, webkit, and probably others.

Re:Cool, but where are the kernel sources? (2, Interesting)

Qubit (100461) | more than 4 years ago | (#28280219)

Doesn't that mean they're obliged to release their source anyway

That's pretty much the assumption I was working on... :-)

(or will be, when the item ships)?

According to Wikipedia [wikipedia.org] it has already shipped: Available: June 6th, 2009 (Sprint Nextel).

That's why I've waited until now to ask for the kernel sources!

Re:Cool, but where are the kernel sources? (1)

zlogic (892404) | more than 4 years ago | (#28281251)

GPL demands the sources available to be available to paying customers. The customers are free to upload them to The Pirate Bay, but if they don't, the only option to look at them is to buy the device. A lot of router and modem manufacturers provide GPL'd sources on an included CD.

Now if Palm doesn't include the sources or provide a link to download them, it's a different story.

title and summary conflict (2, Informative)

alfal (255149) | more than 4 years ago | (#28278825)

The title and the summary of this article aren't in total agreement (one says Reset Doctor, other says root image).
The Reset Doctor wasn't leaked, its available on Palm's site: http://kb.palm.com/wps/portal/kb/common/article/32759_en.html [palm.com]
The WebOS root image is what I would consider being leaked.

Re:title and summary conflict (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28279483)

Well, considering the root image was just sitting in the Reset Doctor, inside some archives, unencrypted, is that really a leak?

Palm's n00bness is quite apparent, Apple would've encrypted that root image.

Re:title and summary conflict (1)

wbo (1172247) | more than 4 years ago | (#28280421)

Actually Palm has a history of providing unencrypted ROM images for their devices and explaining how to create your own ROM dumps from a device especially to registered developers. There are also numerous [grack.com] tools [sourceforge.net] designed to allow people to customize these ROM images and install them on their devices some of which [symbol.com] are supported by the device manufactures.

I doubt releasing the root image for the Pre was unintentional and I highly doubt Palm will do anything to discourage people customizing the root image and adding their own applications.

Palm's history with ROM images (1)

Tetsujin (103070) | more than 4 years ago | (#28281193)

Actually Palm has a history of providing unencrypted ROM images for their devices and explaining how to create your own ROM dumps from a device especially to registered developers. There are also numerous [grack.com] tools [sourceforge.net] designed to allow people to customize these ROM images and install them on their devices some of which [symbol.com] are supported by the device manufactures.

I doubt releasing the root image for the Pre was unintentional and I highly doubt Palm will do anything to discourage people customizing the root image and adding their own applications.

That was a whole different era. Since then Palm has been restructured a half dozen times, and fallen quite hard from their former glory as the #1 handheld platform. The new devices have all kinds of features the old ones didn't - features that some people won't want you to use with complete liberty. I don't think you can take it for granted that they'll continue playing by the rules they followed in the days of POSE and copilot.

Who really cares about the Pre? (0, Offtopic)

not-quite-rite (232445) | more than 4 years ago | (#28278941)

I love that it has a Linux based operating system. The hardware looks kinda nice.

But it's coming into an already crowded market. Competing with the iphone is not going to be easy. At least the iphone comes from a background of an integrated product line. Ie Buy MacBook for computer, Ipod for music, Iphone for telecoms.

Palm doesn't have that. It's got a proprietary version of the operating system. Only runs on one(maybe two with Pixie) piece of hardware, and is competing with very well established lines of smart phones and feature phones(ie anything with S60, WinMo, Blackberry etc)

If Palm had released it 5 years ago(or maybe when it bought BeOS), I would care a lot more.

Android is my bet, as I should be able to concentrate on hardware upgrades, and not having to learn another crappy software interface. I want a good operating system that works on multiple hardware platforms-and not WinMo(I said "good" :P )

But Why? (3, Insightful)

Paul Carver (4555) | more than 4 years ago | (#28279147)

jump onto Verizon's network

Is Verizon really that lovable? I know all the iPhone haters are quick to point to AT&T as the worst cell phone carrier, but is there really so much love out there for Verizon?

For every AT&T phone I've had that supported bluetooth I've never had any trouble moving ringtones and pictures on and off the phone directly from my computer. I had heard that Verizon pretty much always disables features like that in order to force you to use their fee based options. I've never understood how someone who dislikes AT&T could have any love for Verizon.

I totally understand people rooting for the underdog, but loving Verizon and hating Sprint I just don't understand. Every time a new smartphone comes out it seems there's a huge clamor to use it on some carrier other than the one who's got an exclusive deal for the new phone.

Are there really any wireless carriers out there that are super awesome great companies who just unfortunately only offer crap phones?

Re:But Why? (1)

Vu1turEMaN (1270774) | more than 4 years ago | (#28279447)

Verizon is hateable, not lovable.

You cannot move ringtones so easily at all. You could use BitPim (which some Verizon workers even recommend), but thats almost a hassle. The only other way is to save the ringtone as a sound and as a ringtone, as sounds can be emailed and then resaved onto the new phone as a sound and/or ringtone.

Basically everyone's complaining cause verizon's current smartphone selection sucks....two touchscreens and an ancient blackberry. People that have verizon (and get the huge corporate discount, like me (30% off)), don't want to switch and would rather complain and try to port a phone over from sprint.

Most of the east coast also loves having Verizon. because the quality is the best over here (anywhere else, not so much).

Re:But Why? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28279543)

AT&T doesn't provide anywhere near the same humor value [blogspot.com] that Verizon does.

Re:But Why? (1)

NekSnappa (803141) | more than 4 years ago | (#28279547)

Where I live AT&T's signal is almost nonexistent. Since my cell is my home phone as well, that makes it a non-starter for me.

Re:But Why? (1)

Svpernova09 (978812) | more than 4 years ago | (#28279689)

After spending 5+ years as a loyal AT&T Cellular customer, we (the wife and I) switched to Sprint. We also used our cellphones as our home phones and when we bought our first house, we found out inside the house is a dead zone. We live in Memphis, so it isn't like we're out in the mountains or anything. I can walk to the end of my driveway and get a full signal with AT&T, but as soon as I go inside, it's a paper weight. After 3 conversations with reps and supervisors over the phone, and visits to local stores, they ended up giving us a break on our last 3 months bill. I'd love an iphone, but not at the expense of not being able to use it at home.

Re:But Why? (2, Informative)

blahbooboo (839709) | more than 4 years ago | (#28279917)

A lot of cell phone coverage issues are actually related to the cell phone. I found that a few Sprint phones i had were AWFUL, then would be sitting next to other people with spint whom had great reception.

I started researching signal strength on my next Sprint phone purchase, result the quality has been INCREDIBLE and I never get dropped calls.

Look to the phone as well as the cell phone tower for your troubles

Re:But Why? (1)

krzy123 (1201507) | more than 4 years ago | (#28279951)

I can add/remove ringtones/pics from my phone over bluetooth just fine. I have a LG Venus on verizon.

Re:But Why? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28280733)

Up until a couple of days ago, Sprint was a super awesome company with only crap phones. I love them, and everyone who I talk to that has them loves them too. I'll take mediocre customer service (face it, you get it with all the carriers) and a low bill, thanks.
I just priced out a Pre data plan yesterday:
  • Family plan, 2 lines - that's 2 Pre's
  • 1500 shared minutes, plus free nights/weekends, plus unlimited in-network calling
  • unlimited text messaging
  • unlimited data
  • $130/month

The iphone is slick and cool, but the monthly price premium is just not worth it.

Has palm published GPL modifications? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28279305)

I assume the root image indicates modifications to GPL source, like Webkit.
Have they published the changes?

Re:Has palm published GPL modifications? (2)

Qubit (100461) | more than 4 years ago | (#28280347)

I assume the root image indicates modifications to GPL source, like Webkit.
Have they published the changes?

WebKit [webkit.org] is not GPLed. Their main page states that they are an open source project (their words) with portions available under BSD [webkit.org] and LGPL [webkit.org] licenses.

Palm doesn't have to release anything if they use BSD code in their software stack. If they use LGPL code then I believe that they have to release their changes and provide a method allowing the end user to replace the LGPLed library with a different library. I'm no lawyer, so I'd suggest that you look at the license [webkit.org] for the details.

mod 3own (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28280393)

all o7er America 0ne common goal -
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