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Senator Applauds Pirate Bay Trial, Chides Canada

timothy posted more than 5 years ago | from the speaking-metaphorically-of-course dept.

Government 526

eldavojohn writes "Republican Senator Orrin Hatch spoke Tuesday at the World Copyright Summit in Washington DC and hailed the Pirate Bay guilty verdict as an important victory. He expressed severe disappointment in Canada for showing up on our watch list for piracy next to China and Russia. Senator Hatch also said, 'In fact, one study reports that each year, copyright piracy from motion pictures, sound recordings, business and entertainment software, and video games costs the US economy $58 billion in total output, costs American workers 373,375 jobs and $16.3 billion in earnings, and costs federal, state, and local governments $2.6 billion in tax revenue. During this time of economic turmoil, we must ensure that all copyrighted works, both here and abroad, are protected from online theft and traditional physical piracy. After all, US copyright-based industries continue to be one of America's largest and fastest-growing economic sectors.' GamePolitics notes that for his 2006 campaign, Hatch was rented for $7,000 by the RIAA and also got on his knees for $12,640 from the MPAA."

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OK republican shills (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28297873)

start defending this idiot.

Re:OK republican shills (1)

halivar (535827) | more than 5 years ago | (#28297891)

You're pointing five feet to the left of me. Take the plank out and you'll see better.

Re:OK republican shills (4, Funny)

interkin3tic (1469267) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298421)

start defending this idiot.

Okay... uh... he works hard for the bribes the mafiaa pays him. You can't accuse him of not delivering.

Re:OK republican shills (4, Insightful)

Sun.Jedi (1280674) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298515)

In all the brouhaha from the payout, to wall street vs main, TARP, GM, Chryseler, Sotamayor, and great big plans for the new Health care... if the Republicans couldn't find something to take a stand on, anything ... then they deserve what they get. Outvoted and silenced. I find it odd, from news a few weeks back that the recognized "voice of the Republican party" is Rush Limbaugh; and Mr. Limbaugh is a self-proclaimed "non-party" conservative. Is there is point in defending Republicans? Sadly, they are leaderless, clueless, and helpless. I have faith in conservatism, but no faith in Republicans to bring about conservatism.

Well... (1)

Random2 (1412773) | more than 5 years ago | (#28297923)

He seems to forget that some people can afford those things for reasons beyond their control, or they're so over-priced anyways that people wouldn't normally buy them. Bottom line, without pirating they'd be lucky to be making a quarter of that amount.

Re:Well... (5, Insightful)

spacefiddle (620205) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298037)

Yeah, i love how in business can you count "money we never got or even came close to seeing" as a "loss."

This one time, i was in a convenience store, and i saw someone else had won a million dollars in a lottery. I didn't have an extra dollar on me for a lottery ticket at the time, since the public transit token machine ate one of my dollars. Ergo, PUBLIC TRANSIT COST ME A MILLION DOLLARS!!11!1

oh wait, that 'extra' dollar would have gone to something useful with value to me... not a lottery ticket.

/facepalm

Re:Well... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28298367)

Yeah, i love how in business can you count "money we never got or even came close to seeing" as a "loss."

This one time, i was in a convenience store, and i saw someone else had won a million dollars in a lottery. I didn't have an extra dollar on me for a lottery ticket at the time, since the public transit token machine ate one of my dollars. Ergo, PUBLIC TRANSIT COST ME A MILLION DOLLARS!!11!1

oh wait, that 'extra' dollar would have gone to something useful with value to me... not a lottery ticket.

/facepalm

blame darpa... they invented the interwebs of piracy

Re:Well... (2, Insightful)

damien_kane (519267) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298483)

blame darpa... they invented the interwebs of piracy

So it's all Al Gore's fault?

Re:Well... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28298565)

Al Gore invented DARPA too?

Re:Well... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28298097)

Why do you assume he's not factoring in the number of people who simply wouldn't make the purchase into the figures he's saying?

Re:Well... (1)

mtempsch (524313) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298349)

Why do you assume he's not factoring in the number of people who simply wouldn't make the purchase into the figures he's saying?

Past performance? Presenting cooked numbers & flawed studies is after all S.O.P. for the media business and its hang-arounds.

Suck it, Theives (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28298105)

Next time you cocksuckers want to goon one of your P2P stealing binges you might want to think twice.

Orin Hatch is looking for you, and he is already semi-erect.

Re:Well... (4, Informative)

Divebus (860563) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298323)

Oh, that's nothing. Think how much money this "Fair Use" nonsense has cost the industry.

Not a Loss (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28297929)

If someone download a movie, game or song doesn't mean they would have paid for it if they couldn't. So those loss calculations are wrong

Re:Not a Loss (1)

nicolas.kassis (875270) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298377)

they have some random accounting rules that allow them to guesstimate instead of using facts.

It often is a loss, and here's why (1, Insightful)

MikeRT (947531) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298473)

If someone download a movie, game or song doesn't mean they would have paid for it if they couldn't. So those loss calculations are wrong

You're absolutely right that it doesn't mean they would have paid for it. A lot of pirates might not even be able to pay for it. However, the availability of piracy as an option skews the whole thing wildly. We don't know what people would do if piracy weren't an option. It very well might be possible that the sales of games and movies might be significantly higher. Again, we won't know because people can just copy anything they don't feel like buying or budgeting for.

Re:It often is a loss, and here's why (1)

Lovedumplingx (245300) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298629)

That's not true at all.

We know what people DID before piracy and that was not see the film, hear the music, or play the game.

But the converse of the argument is that everyone is still subjected to the wanton product placements and blatant advertising in products these days. Producers of these things should still be happy that they're getting advertising revenue from these products because even though piracy may take a meager sum from them they probably made most of that back by shoving products down everyone's throats both users and pirates alike.

American Imperialsm w/ Entertainment Media? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28297947)

I can't believe he admitted it. "After all, US copyright-based industries continue to be one of America's largest and fastest-growing economic sectors."

Next thing you know he'll say, "And if they won't buy our opium, we will sail our ironclads right into their harbours and open up their markets, whether they like it or not."

Re:American Imperialsm w/ Entertainment Media? (0, Redundant)

zippyspringboard (1483595) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298103)

I can't believe he admitted it. "After all, US copyright-based industries continue to be one of America's largest and fastest-growing economic sectors."

Next thing you know he'll say, "And if they won't buy our opium, we will sail our ironclads right into their harbours and open up their markets, whether they like it or not."

Bingo! I couldn't agree more.

Re:American Imperialsm w/ Entertainment Media? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28298507)

Wow! "Me too!" gets modded insightful. 'salright, I agree with the GP also. Give me points, dammit!

Re:American Imperialsm w/ Entertainment Media? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28298591)

Wow! "Me too!" gets modded insightful. 'salright, I agree with the GP also. Give me points, dammit!

You might get +1 Funny. You made me laugh (especially since I was thinking the same thing).

Re:American Imperialsm w/ Entertainment Media? (0, Troll)

The Empiricist (854346) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298477)

I can't believe he admitted it. "After all, US copyright-based industries continue to be one of America's largest and fastest-growing economic sectors."

Why can't you believe that he "admitted" that it is in the economic interests of the United States to ensure that its copyright-based industries continue to develop? He is a Senator. His job is to identify and protect the interests of the citizens of the United States. That is what all legislators are supposed to do. There is a lot of debate as to what those interests are and how to protect them, but it would seem silly to sponsor legislation and then pretend that no one's interests are being protected.

What is sad is how frequently remarks made by politicians are isolated and magnified to overly simplify their positions. In those same set of remarks, Senator Hatch talks about the problem of orphan works:

I also continue to be very active on passing orphan works legislation.

Last year, the Senate unanimously passed bipartisan legislation to encourage the use of orphan works - works that may be protected by copyright but whose owners cannot be identified or located. Countless artistic creations - books, photos, paintings and music - around the country are effectively locked away and unavailable for the general public to enjoy because the owner of the copyright for the work is unknown.

Unfortunately, it often isn't easy to identify or find these owners of copyrighted work. To make matters worse, many are discouraged or reluctant to use these works out of fear of being sued should the owner eventually step forward.

For years, I have been working with industry stakeholders and copyright experts, including Marybeth Peters, Register of Copyrights, to pass orphan works legislation. The bill seeks to unite users and copyright owners, and to ensure that copyright owners are compensated for the use of their works. I couldn't agree more with Register Peters when she said, "A solution to the orphan works problem is overdue and the pending legislation is both fair and responsible."

You may not agree with every position that the Senator makes, but an interpretation of his positions that is driven by something more than just sound-bites shows that he is interested in protecting more than just the interests of copyright owners. Finding the best ways of protecting the interests of copyright owners, content producers, distributors, consumers, technological innovators, etc. is a challenging task. Oversimplification of the issues based on the perspective of one interest group doesn't make the task any easier.

makes me proud to be a canadian (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28297957)

Lets face it,

If as a society you are pissing off a modern US Republican, you have to be doing something right.

Re:makes me proud to be a canadian (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28298283)

If we could get Hulu.com and the like in Canada, maybe we wouldn't have to d/l all the content in other ways for shows we can't get here easily...hmmm

Re:makes me proud to be a canadian (4, Insightful)

Faulkner39 (955290) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298289)

Doing something right would piss off a US Democrat, doing something left would get you mad mod points on slashdot.

Re:makes me proud to be a canadian (1)

cwAllenPoole (1228672) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298293)

I suppose that we have forgotten that there are no Libertarian Democrats?

Re:makes me proud to be a canadian (1)

interkin3tic (1469267) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298317)

If as a society you are pissing off a modern US Republican, you have to be doing something right.

(waits for someone to flame or flamebait about muslim extremists...)

Re:makes me proud to be a canadian (4, Insightful)

qortra (591818) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298347)

I'm no Republican, and I happen to hate the party. But, I do find it amazing that an AC making a fairly uninteresting anti-Republican comment can be modded up so quickly. Are you people so anxious to show off our political viewpoint? Are you not aware that liberals have been just as guilty of courting the RIAA and MPAA and conservatives? Who can remember Senator Disney [google.com] ?

Re:makes me proud to be a canadian (1)

jamstar7 (694492) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298465)

If as a society you are pissing off a modern US Republican, you have to be doing something right.

Orrin Hatch is about as 'modern' a Republican as Abraham Lincoln. IIRC, Orrin used to crib off Abe's homework.

Dinosaur? Absolutely.

Re:makes me proud to be a canadian (1)

time$lice (901396) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298511)

The one day I don't have mod points to mod this down. This is obvious flamebait or a troll. Take your pick. Maybe even possibly funny with the whole "right" comment but not insightful.

Re:makes me proud to be a canadian (0, Flamebait)

Uberbah (647458) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298659)

/checks record for the last decade

You're right, it's not "insightful". It's "blindingly obvious reality". Torture, domestic spying that would have gotten Clinton shot, going from a budget surplus to doubling the debt to $10 trillion, lied us into a war, destoyed the economy, etc. And the Republic party supported him every step of the way.

$58 billion saved! (4, Insightful)

sakdoctor (1087155) | more than 5 years ago | (#28297967)

That's an incredible saving. That money can be used to fix broken windows everywhere.

Yeah Canada (5, Funny)

Chlorine Trifluoride (1517149) | more than 5 years ago | (#28297971)

How dare you give your citizens freedom.

Re:Yeah Canada (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28298649)

don't worry we're still pressurized into draconian marijuana laws, thanks to the efforts of your senators, they'll probably get us to bring back the noose for file sharing soon too.

$58 billion? (2, Insightful)

Quantus347 (1220456) | more than 5 years ago | (#28297991)

Where exactly did he get his numbers? I wonder?

Re:$58 billion? (3, Informative)

Yvan256 (722131) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298027)

Either from the RIAA/MPAA, or from Verizon.

In both cases the numbers are meaningless.

Re:$58 billion? (1)

oldspewey (1303305) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298159)

It's all the same thing when you look at it decimal-wise

Re:$58 billion? (5, Informative)

eldavojohn (898314) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298073)

Where exactly did he get his numbers? I wonder?

I believe he was citing the Business Software Alliance's annual report on piracy [bsa.org] . Although that value I believe is for world-wide losses, not American.

Re:$58 billion? (5, Funny)

Random2 (1412773) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298115)

America IS the world. Duh.

Re:$58 billion? (1)

joelmax (1445613) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298311)

Where exactly did he get his numbers? I wonder?

I believe he was citing the Business Software Alliance's annual report on piracy [bsa.org] . Although that value I believe is for world-wide losses, not American.

Isnt that the one the conference board of canada plagarized?

Re:$58 billion? (1)

nicolas.kassis (875270) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298411)

So... were not talking about only American jobs only then? So that 300+K is also a lie.

Re:$58 billion? (1)

nicolas.kassis (875270) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298431)

Forgot to also mention, what extra job do you need to create when copying is nearly free to the producer. Why wouldn't they make that as profit instead of wasting it on more employees.

The made up statistics of the BSA (5, Informative)

TropicalCoder (898500) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298551)

From Prof. Michael Geist's blog BSA Admits Canadian Software Piracy Rates Estimated; Canada Viewed as Low Piracy Country [michaelgeist.ca] , the following shows that these statistics are just made up...

This year the BSA reported that Canada declined from 33 to 32 percent. Michael Murphy, chair of the BSA Canada Committee claimed that "despite the slight decline, Canada's software piracy rate is nowhere near where it should be compared to other advanced economy countries. We stand a better chance of reducing it significantly with stronger copyright legislation that strikes the appropriate balance between the rights of consumers and copyright holders."

Yet what the BSA did not disclose is that the 2009 report on Canada were guesses since Canadian firms and users were not surveyed. While the study makes seemingly authoritative claims about the state of Canadian piracy, the reality is that IDC, which conducts the study for BSA, did not bother to survey in Canada.

Re:$58 billion? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28298637)

Great, criticize us with **AA garbage and use BSA numbers to justify it. Yet forget to mention Canada ranks 17th for lowest piracy rates from BSA stats.

Re:$58 billion? (5, Interesting)

localman57 (1340533) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298079)

'In fact, one study reports that each year, copyright piracy from motion pictures, sound recordings, business and entertainment software, and video games costs the US economy $58 billion in total output, costs American workers 373,375 jobs and $16.3 billion in earnings, and costs federal, state, and local governments $2.6 billion in tax revenue.

I wonder if this number includes the economic benefits gained from people buying extra hard drives, spindles of DVD-Rs, and upgrading their broadband connections to the fastest unlimited connections they can get? Simply looking at it as an economist, neither condemning nor condoning the action of pirating...

Re:$58 billion? (5, Interesting)

Captain Splendid (673276) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298435)

Well said. Kinda hard to feel bad for Media conglomerates when most of them own ISPs who are quite happy to advertise their wares in terms of "fast access to media".

Somebody's making money, and it's not the pirates.

Re:$58 billion? (1)

b4dc0d3r (1268512) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298561)

In that case, the money goes to people who didn't contribute to his campaign. So it's bad.

Except for the broadband companies - I guess there is some middle ground after all.

Re:$58 billion? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28298119)

probably quoted from the last guy that quoted some number who quoted them from some other guy who calculated for inflation from some numbers he heard some other guy quote from a magazine article from 1981 or so that had no actual fact numbers to begin with.

But it sure sounds impressive so it must be true.

Re:$58 billion? (1)

LSDelirious (1569065) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298549)

$58 Billion Purple Monkey Dishwasher!

Re:$58 billion? (4, Funny)

spiffmastercow (1001386) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298135)

Where exactly did he get his numbers? I wonder?

Well, when each song download is worth $200,000...

Re:$58 billion? (1)

k10quaint (1344115) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298275)

Where exactly did he get his numbers? I wonder?

Didn't you read the summary? There was $19,640 dollars of "research" done to supply those numbers.

Re:$58 billion? (1)

nicolas.kassis (875270) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298449)

I'm in the wrong line of work.

Re:$58 billion? (3, Insightful)

dk90406 (797452) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298489)

RIAA / MPAA? That number is even more absurd than the older numbers that Ars Technica analyzed recently: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/04/rep-howard-berman-calls-for-new-ip-law-using-dodgy-data.ars [arstechnica.com]
The job loss claim is ludicrous! 300.000+ jobs? How? Where? So if all download their stuff legally from then net that number of jobs will be created? Or does he expect that CD and DVD stores will spring back to life in this digital age at the cost of LEGAL downloads?

Who wants a treat? (5, Funny)

Sponge Bath (413667) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298029)

"Orrin Hatch (R-UT) once again was charming,
informed, thoughtful and inspiring in his speech."

Who's a good doggy? Who's a good doggy?
You are aren't you! Have some kibble.

So the Senator is applauding corrupt trials... (5, Insightful)

Fallen Kell (165468) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298041)

I'm sure glad that he is a senator then. I would love to see how he would feel if he was convicted in a trial and it turned out that the Judge was a high ranking member of the puppeteers of the prosecutor. Talk about trying to stack the deck. I know lets make sure the Judge is on our side and already believes us, that will make it much easier to make sure the outcome is the one we want.

don't forget Hatch was chair of Judiciary Committe (2, Interesting)

Uberbah (647458) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298429)

...so this is even more pathetic. But then this is the same Hatch that helped block 60 of Clintons judicial nominees, only to have his party threaten to blow up the Senate if the Democrats didn't give an "upordown" vote for all of Bushs nominees. Now of course that a Dem is back in the White House, the GOP is threatening to filibuster Obamas picks before he's even made them.

Haha, love those stats (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28298057)

Is that like the "15 pounds of pot found!" busts where the dude had one puny 10cm plant that happened to be in a 15 pound planter.

Blame Canada (5, Informative)

oldspewey (1303305) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298059)

I suppose it would be a waste of time to explain to this genius that the "problem" of file sharing in Canada is largely a myth [canada.com] and has been discredited [www.cbc.ca] .

Re:Blame Canada (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28298223)

I suppose it would be a waste of time to explain to this genius that the "problem" of file sharing in Canada is largely a myth [canada.com] and has been discredited [www.cbc.ca].

For anyone too lazy to read the helpful link provided by the parent, basically it boils down that they didn't do any actual measurements in Canada, they extrapolated based on what their (flawed) statistical model indicated should be their projected piracy rates.

There is no evidence (real or otherwise) that piracy in Canada happens at anywhere near the rate they pulled out of their backsides.

Re:Blame Canada (1)

jamstar7 (694492) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298501)

I'm thinking Orrin's just trying to justify the US invading Canada & annexing it. Too bad, it was a nice place to visit once upon a time in the 70's...

Re:Blame Canada (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28298609)

What have facts to do with it? WhOrin's constituency is the media industry, he's representing those who (cough...cough...) funded his election.

Wrong (3, Informative)

whisper_jeff (680366) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298063)

Hey, Orrin. Just an FYI - those numbers have been proven wrong, on numerous occasions by numerous sources. And not wrong in the "close but not quite accurate" sense - wrong as in "so far off from any vague hint of accuracy as to be laughable." You keep quoting numbers that are being fed to you by the MPAA and RIAA and they're making you look stupid. You might want to have one of your staff members do a smidge of research so you don't look quite so idiotic. Oh, and when you spout off these incorrect numbers, it weakens any other point you may have by association. But, hey, you enjoy that new deck that the RIAA/MPAA donation allowed you to add to your country home.

58 Billion that went elsewhere (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28298065)

Now what do you suppose the people that downloaded movies/music did with that money?

They couldn't possibly have spent that money elsewhere (most likely on a new HDD =)

So (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28298071)

The Right whines and makes up numbers as scare tactics, and the Holy Left appoints the RIAA's attack dogs to run the justice department.

I'm thinking it's time to move to Canada.

Re:So (3, Insightful)

Darkness404 (1287218) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298185)

Why move to Canada whenever Sweden is going to have some pirates in office soon and has a public generally anti-copyright.

Re:So (1)

CRCulver (715279) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298503)

Why move to Canada whenever Sweden is going to have some pirates in office soon and has a public generally anti-copyright.

Because it's more expensive, it's facing rising crime because it doesn't do enough to help immigrants assimilate and gain employment, and the people seem offensively taciturn and appallingly alcoholic to visitors from outside the Nordic countries. FWIW, I am an immigrant to next door Finland, and while I myself enjoy many aspects of living here and I hope its welfare state continues to be a model of how to massively raise quality of life, I wouldn't recommend a move to Scandinavia to just anyone. For some reason, Canada seems a bit more universal in appeal.

RIAA Tax (4, Interesting)

Akido37 (1473009) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298095)

Wait, I thought there was a special tax in Canada on blank media that the government just handed over to the RIAA-equivalent.

Re:RIAA Tax (1)

Coraon (1080675) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298499)

There is, and I think over all its a good system, I don't mind paying an extra $2 for a spindle of 50 dvd's if it means I can copy whatever the hell I want on them. As a bonus we still own our software, not lease it and DRM is technically illegal here as it violates our privacy act. EULA's don't work here because you have to agree to them after you buy them. We have fair copyright law here, so I guess that makes us the Tortuga of the internet in their eyes.

Re:RIAA Tax (1)

LSDelirious (1569065) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298587)

Just wait until they try to tax all binary information... Zeros are Free, but Ones will cost ya

Here's a little rhyme I copyrighted (4, Funny)

xednieht (1117791) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298099)

Orrin Hatch reminds of putrid old snatch. (C) 2009 all rights reserved

Wording (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28298101)

cost the economy $58 billion or allowed those $58 billion to be introduced into the ocal economy rather than going straight into madonna's offshore account?

Some things the Senator needs to understand. (5, Insightful)

Insanity Defense (1232008) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298125)

Some things the Senator needs to understand:

1/ Other countries are INDEPENDENT and the United States has no authority to dictate to them.

2/ Industry funded studies designed to "prove" their viewpoint cannot be trusted.

3/ Copyright under the U.S. Constitution was not intended to be eternal. It was supposed to be for a limited time and I suspect that "limited" was meant in compared to the human life span not compared to eternity.

3/ The DMCA is bad law and should be repealed rather than encouraging others to implement the same

Re:Some things the Senator needs to understand. (5, Funny)

gringofrijolero (1489395) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298601)

Other countries are INDEPENDENT and the United States has no authority to dictate to them.

[citation needed]

On that note (5, Insightful)

LSDelirious (1569065) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298145)

It is estimated that the US printing industry lost Eleventy Billion Dollars in book sales last year from all those freeloading bastards reading at their local public library, which also contributed to heavy losses in the paper manufacturing industry....

Re:On that note (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28298299)

The worst part is that, from what I've heard, publishers assume that, on average, every book passes through four sets of hands, and they really do consider the other three sets of hands to be "lost sales".

False statistics (4, Insightful)

TropicalCoder (898500) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298157)

This has been thoroughly debunked [michaelgeist.ca] by Professor Michael Geist a law professor at the University of Ottawa where he hold the Canada Research Chair in Internet and E-commerce Law.

Addendum (4, Informative)

TropicalCoder (898500) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298339)

Just a snippet from the blog cited above...

...it would be worth reminding U.S. officials that Canada is compliant with its international copyright obligations. In recent years, it responded to U.S. pressure by becoming one of the few countries to enact anti-camcording legislation. The RCMP has prioritized intellectual property cases and the law contains tough statutory damages provisions that are regularly used by rights holders to obtain significant judgments. In fact, some of Canada's copyright rules are more restrictive than those found south of the border.

Moreover, grouping Canada together with high-piracy nations does not stand up to even mild scrutiny. The Business Software Alliance's 2008 statistics show that among the eleven other countries on this year's Priority Watch List for which data is available, the lowest rate of software piracy is 66 percent. By comparison, Canada stands at 32 percent, not remotely close to any other country on the list. In fact, Canada's software piracy rate is lower than all 46 countries named in the Special 301 report.

Similarly, 2008 data from the U.S. Customs and Border Protection Agency on intellectual property seizures reports that Taiwan and South Korea rank fourth and fifth as sources of seized goods (China is number one), yet both were dropped this year from the Watch List. By comparison, Canada does not even appear in the rankings.

[Canadian] Officials should not sit idly by as the U.S. unfairly tarnishes Canada's reputation.

Re:False statistics (1)

gringofrijolero (1489395) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298657)

They can "debunk" all they want. Statistics are used to evoke emotional response. The more outrageous, the better.

Just to dispel any confusion. (4, Interesting)

BabyDuckHat (1503839) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298167)

Yes, I live in Utah.
Yes, I am Mormon.
Yes, I really dislike Orin Hatch.

What's everybody worried about? (1)

e9th (652576) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298187)

No Democrats agree with Hatch here. Right?

damn Democrats, whores to Hollywood! (4, Insightful)

Uberbah (647458) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298211)

...oh, wait. This Orrin Hatch, who.voted for the DMCA along with the rest of the Gopasaurs. Both parties suck on IP issues.

Re:damn Democrats, whores to Hollywood! (5, Insightful)

kenp2002 (545495) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298393)

Sonny Bono, Hatch, both parties? There is only one party.

They are Legion, they are many.

I see little difference between Clinton, Bush, Obama, Carter, etc.

I see 1 party. The "Goverment as a Business" party whom we shall now refer to as the GAAB party comprising two idealogies:

Left: The Goverment Controls Business
Right: Business Control the Goverment

but either way THEY CONTROL YOU.

Seriously this partisan nonsense has to end, neither party has shown any credibitity in over 80 years and have done nothing for the nation as a whole, rather they have done plenty for themselves.

When the USA stopped making real things and moved to a service economy the only thing we have left is our imaginary property that was long ago only supposed to be protected for 7 years has turned into a generation spanning con game with society at large losing in the end.

Now as that society rebels watch carefully as the GAABs show their true colors.

It is modern Feudalism with Goverment as the King and the large corporations as the fiefs. It's employees are the pesants\cattle and we can see the bloodlines clear as day now in both the Corporate spheres as well as in the media.

I will coin a term if it hasn't already:

The United States form of goverment is "Corporate Feudalism"

Lack of Understanding of Economics? (5, Insightful)

jayme0227 (1558821) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298213)

Okay, maybe I'm not the brightest bulb on the tree, but if Americans aren't spending money on mp3s and downloaded movies, aren't they instead spending that money elsewhere? We have one of the lowest savings rates in the world, so it's not like the money is disappearing into our savings accounts. Therefore, downloading content on the internet should theoretically cost the economy $0 and $0 jobs, or at least considerably less than the figures quoted in the article, and instead create new jobs in other sectors rather than lining the pockets of movie execs. Then again, this whole philosophy is moot if nobodyâ(TM)s following the Pirates Code of Honor and buying content that is actually good.

Re:Lack of Understanding of Economics? (2, Funny)

visible.frylock (965768) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298595)

Oh no, of course not. Americans have one of the highest per capita savings rates in the world. Right now, instead of paying for music and movies, they're saving that money for their retirement.

Questionable Statistics at Best (2, Interesting)

swanzilla (1458281) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298221)

I have my doubts that 373,375 Americans are engaged in full time piracy. I have bigger doubts that Sen. Hatch has statisticians capable of producing a figure of jobs lost to piracy accurate to six significant figures.

Job Figures are BS (1)

ultraexactzz (546422) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298239)

I'll note only that the $16.3 Billion in lost wages is just the payroll portion of the $58 Billion (about 30%), and that the jobs shown are the payroll divided by the average salary in the industry - about $43,500 according to the latest economic census numbers I can find. I can't imagine that 373,375 people have actually lost their jobs because someone downloaded Wolverine. Does that industry even have that many jobs in the US, since so many productions go to Vancouver?

OMG! (1)

droidsURlooking4 (1543007) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298249)

58 Billion! We need a RIAA Bailout quick, or the economy is really doomed!

Orin Hatch doesn't understand the law (4, Insightful)

erroneus (253617) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298265)

The crux of the problem with "the pirate bay convictions" is that they aren't being properly tried under local law. The fact that they had their stuff seized and then returned to them should have been indication enough that the problem isn't with the pirate bay's activities, but with the local laws. Their present conviction is quite wrongful.

Hatch rather reminds me of my ex-wife who believed that anything that made her angry must be against the law and so was inclined to call the police to resolve it. Hatch, of course, is one of the bought and paid for politicians and I simply can't believe anyone is taking him seriously any more... well okay, I can believe it simply because the general masses still don't get what is wrong with current copyright law and process... and definitely don't get that different countries have different ideals and standards of law.

I would have been an interesting turn of things if the U.S.S.R. was able to peddle its influence to have other nations change their laws the way the U.S. does. And outside of the U.S. I am fairly certain that the practice is both unappreciated and unwelcome. It is probably one of the larger reasons the U.S. is presently disliked in the world.

I know $19k sounds like a lot of money... (4, Insightful)

mellon (7048) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298267)

...but it's a drop in the bucket in a senate election. So while I am just as annoyed at Senator Hatch as the next geek, I think accusing him of being bought is probably tactically stupid. First, because it's probably not true. Second, because there's probably another reason he holds this particular position. And third, because he probably actually believes what he's saying.

There are two ways to get him to stop being such a powerful advocate for copyright interests. One is to get him replaced. The other is to get him to change his mind. Getting him replaced is going to be really, really hard. But by all means, go for it. Only I really doubt the average Utahn is going to vote him out on the basis of his position on copyright, even if they disagree with him. So that's a really big job.

The other possibility is that you could get him to come around to seeing how much economic damage the RIAA and MPAA positions are doing to our economy. I think that's pretty hard too. But maybe not impossible. But one thing that is impossible is that you will get him to even listen to you if you start talking about how he's blowing the MPAA to get campaign contributions. The electoral system works the way it works. I want it to change as much as you do. But it's not going to change because you make nasty accusations. It's going to change because you work for it, or not at all.

Is Hatch a capitalist or aristocrat? (3, Insightful)

fermion (181285) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298273)

People complain that we are going socialist, but how long has Hatch been in office, and how long has he been shouting these socialist ideals. Sure someone, somewhere might be losing all that money, but who cares! Look at how much money Chrysler lost, Than god we live a more or less capitalist economy, so even though they could take away tax money to throw after bad, at least Hatch did not have the power to force me to buy an American Car, though by his statements I am sure he would have wanted to.

If someone is losing money, it is not because someone else is stealing it. It is because the product is not competitive. If an album is not selling, it is not because of piracy, it is because it is not competitive. Either enough money has not been spent on marketing, or it is priced too high, or it is too hard to get. How many of us pay more to get milk from the corner store. How many of us would pay that same high price at the big grocery stores. Recorded music still has value, just not the value it did. I am sure Mr. Hatch is confused to why a audio tape manufacturers are not making as much as they did, and probably wanted to a bailout to help them. Under his logic, I could build a fishing pole, sell it for a while, then make it more expensive or reduce the quality, then claim that pirates have stolen my design and I need the feds help.

Although economics is not a zero sum game, one person does sometimes get rich at the expense of another, or at least that is the perception. The music industry is currently in an uproar that it cannot extort more money from the radio stations. Sure the music industry provides the raw materials, but it is the radio station that adds value. What I would like to see an end to compulsory licensing. They could use a bid based system, you know, we will play you album on the station only if you charge this much and no more. Oh, you want the money you used to get, won't happen. Not in a capitalist market.

Re:Is Hatch a capitalist or aristocrat? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28298397)

I thought he was an AristoRat (TM) , soon to be a major motion picture somewhere...

Bad Science (3, Interesting)

nickovs (115935) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298295)

As ever, the media companies are deploying insupportable statistics. Most of the numbers for 'lost revenue' are coming form multiplying 'estimates' for the number of files shared by the recommended retail price of the shared item, which makes the huge leap of believing that every single download that the RIAA thinks happened represents a lost sale that otherwise would have taken place. This assumption is not only naive but studies [guardian.co.uk] have shown that people who download music for free also buy more music. In the UK the government is basing policies on similarly erroneous [badscience.net] information bought and paid for by the media companies. In that particular case the 'academic study' [ucl.ac.uk] got it's numbers for lost revenue from an industry press release [iprights.com] ...

As always follow the money....... (5, Informative)

i_want_you_to_throw_ (559379) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298329)

Orrin Hatch has taken over $96,000 [opensecrets.org] From the TV/Movies/Music lobby already.

What "Buys" Hatch? (2, Funny)

Greyfox (87712) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298361)

I bet it was the free Metallica tickets for life. Hatch rules the mosh pit.

How do they calculate that # of jobs? (1)

amigabill (146897) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298401)

I'd love to understand their algorithm for determining that 373,375 American jobs are affected by this.

"373,375 jobs" Each year? Big fucking deal (3, Insightful)

Jackie_Chan_Fan (730745) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298469)

We've lost 1 million jobs each month due to our corporate and government corruption (same damn thing if you ask me).

We cant be a nation of film makers and muscians. Its not going to float this sinking economy. The real problem is greed, corruption, outsourcing, our law makers bending over backwards for those that would sell out America at every opportunity.

Downloading a shitty movie here and there that still makes 200 million in profit, is not costing us that much.

There are far bigger problems, and i find it hysterical that Oren Hatch (who is part of the problem) is acting as if some how the pirate bay is more significant than health care or the economy.

Perhaps more people are pirating stuff because they can no longer afford to LIVE in the country Oren Hatch supposedly represents. Thanks Oren you fucking tool.

Every one of these politicians live like kings in these "tough economic times"

Give me a break. Fuck off and DO SOMETHING FOR THE PEOPLE FOR ONCE!!!!!!

Hey Hatch F-OFF you industry Whore. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28298481)

Publish more bullshit in the hope that it sticks just because Canada doesn't rubber stamp the changes US media giants want to existing Canadian legislation... Just F-OFF and while your at it find another supplier of energy for the US, Canada is your #1 supplier. Find someone else to fight in Afghanistan, Canada has been there willingly and very fucking effectively since day one. Even after your trigger happy fucking cowboy pilots dropped bombs on Canadian troops on exercises in a clearly marked and advertised training area... Hatch please just fuck off. Sorry for the rant folks.

"In this troubled economy..." (4, Interesting)

erroneus (253617) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298509)

Good god. #1 The banks and investment firms that didn't get involved in the mortgage backed securities nonsense are doing JUST FINE. And it appears that the real problem is the phony money that is being made in the markets. If the U.S. had the same strong manufacturing base that we once had, we would not be nearly as affected as we have been. All of our manufacturing is sent overseas and now our value is is based on how much money we move around. And when the markets crash, the value of our money crashes right along with it. So then what do we have to rebuild with? Not much. That's why we are seeing cars of all types being sold at 50% or more off MSRP today.

And here's the kicker -- we know what the causes are and have been. Nothing has been done to prevent it from happening again. They want to prop things back up and get back to partying like it was 1999.

The good senator... (2)

uffe_nordholm (1187961) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298521)

The good senator may have missed a few points about the Pirate Bay trial.

Firstly, the guilty verdict has been appealed. I don't think we are likely to see the Swedish Supreme Court pass sentence for a good many years yet. And before the Supreme Court hands out a sentence, I don't think you should consider the matter settled. In fact, even after the Swedish Supreme Court, the accused might appeal to the European court (I'm not sure they have the legal possibility, but they might, and if so I think they will take it).

Secondly, the judge is suspected of being biased, and because of this the trial might be declared invalid. The reason this suspicion has arisen is that the judge is a member of two organisations whose purpose it is to strengthen copyright and/or trademark (or similar) protection. Among the other members of at least one of these organisations are the legal representatives for the plaintiffs.

If the trial is declared void, it might be a few years before we get a sentence again.

Piracy cost more than thier revenue? Wait what? (4, Interesting)

MasseKid (1294554) | more than 5 years ago | (#28298633)

A quick google search will land you at a link to http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_32/b4045001.htm [businessweek.com] That article, while talking about pets, states "Americans spend on the movies ($10.8 billion), playing video games ($11.6 billion), and listening to recorded music ($10.6 billion) combined"

So according to the RIAA and MPAA we spend 33 billion on movies, video games, and music combined but some how piracy is costing the American economy almost twice what it actually spent on that industry? I know they inflate numbers, but this is beyond hyperbole.
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