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Nvidia Lauds Windows CE Over Android For Smartbooks

timothy posted more than 5 years ago | from the this-is-2009-ce-after-all dept.

Handhelds 263

ericatcw writes "Google's Android may enjoy the hype, but an increasing number of key industry players say the mobile OS isn't ready for ARM netbooks, aka smartbooks. Nvidia is the most recent to declare Android unfit for duty, stating its preference for Microsoft's Windows CE, which an Nvidia exec praised for having a "low footprint" and being "rock solid." Nvidia is busy optimizing its multimedia-savvy Tegra system-on-chip for Windows CE. Such improvements won't arrive for at least a year to Android, which has an inflexible UI and poor graphics support for devices larger than a smartphone, says Nvidia. Other firms echoing similar criticism include ARM and Asustek."

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Microsoft is better than Google (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28378395)

jews, niggers, etc...

So... (5, Insightful)

MBCook (132727) | more than 5 years ago | (#28378497)

So you're saying software designed for mobile phones doesn't work as well on a little computer like device [wikipedia.org] as software which was designed for little computer like devices [pdagold.com] ?

Wow. Amazing. Incredible.

And they're the same age too!

No, wait, Windows CE is 13 years old. It's had a little more time to design the window manager for different screen sizes.

Re:So... (4, Interesting)

nicolas.kassis (875270) | more than 5 years ago | (#28378607)

Let's not forget that it still sucks and I hoped they would see that and go "Geez, maybe we can help this new guy out so that maybe they will get us out of this lame ass no one wants these things because windows CE sucks issue"

Re:So... (2, Interesting)

the_womble (580291) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379861)

Well the ARM quote, if you RTFA, is:

I do think that there is more work that can and will be done to bring the things we love about Android into form factors [such as netbooks]

She also mentions Moblin as a possible alternative.

I cannot actually see what is so good about Android. Why not Maemo, or the mobile optimised versions of distros such as Ubuntu. It is going to take Android a long time to catch up with the range of software available for real Linux.

Re:So... (4, Insightful)

Xocet_00 (635069) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379047)

"No, wait, Windows CE is 13 years old. It's had a little more time to design the window manager for different screen sizes."

While I agree with everything you've said here, and that the age of Windows CE makes the comparative shortcomings in Android somewhat excusable, it doesn't change the fact that Windows CE seems to do what NVidia wants and Android doesn't.

Android being new is a perfectly valid excuse, but in a here-and-now business sense Nvidia just has to go with what works... I guess.

Writing this is hurting me. I really, really hate Windows CE (or Windows Mobile or whatever they call it these days.)

Re:So... (4, Funny)

oldspewey (1303305) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379187)

I really, really hate Windows CE (or Windows Mobile or whatever they call it these days.)

I'm still fond of calling it "wince"

Re:So... (1)

ColdWetDog (752185) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379393)

Wince, hell. It's CRINGE.

Re:So... (1)

ShadowRangerRIT (1301549) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379499)

When I was working at MS, it took me awhile to figure out some of the code. I kept seeing:
#ifdef OS_WINCE
and wondered "Why would the OS wince?" It took a few weeks before I realized that those parts of the code were there to replace system functions that didn't exist on Win CE (to be fair, I never actually worked with that code, so my ignorance was irrelevant).

Re:So... (1)

sexconker (1179573) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379633)

They're in fact two different things.

Windows CE is used in a lot of places.
Windows CE is in fact rock solid, as Nvidia says.

Android is not targeted for the same applications (as in uses, not as in programs) that Windows CE is.

Regardless, this is all marketing. MS agrees to use Nvidia's platform in shit like the Zune HD.
Nvidia agrees to praise Windows CE and say they're optimizing for it. Nvidia doesn't give a rat's ass what they actually use, as long as it's competent (as Windows CE and Android both are).

Re:So... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28380091)

Windows CE and Windows Mobile are 2 different things my friend...

god I hate Slashdot..why do I find it irresistable to read the comments?!?!

Re:So... (1)

katpurz (721210) | more than 5 years ago | (#28380157)

Windows CE and Windows Mobile share some elements, but are 2 different beasts. Windows CE is a real-time capable emedded OS...made for low footprint devices (factory machinery, in-car GPS devices, etc). Windows Mobile is built upon some of the embedded pieces of CE, and then has it's own bits...made for smart phones and pdas and handhelds and such.

Re:So... (1)

Lord Ender (156273) | more than 5 years ago | (#28380501)

Wince 6 on my HTC phone seems to be very not-ready for consumer use. This device routinely freezes or lags by several seconds from when a button is pressed. It supports everything, including full Bluetooth support, but I can't stand waiting and waiting for my keypresses to be registered by device.

Android may lack features, but if it responds promptly to user input, it is more mature a product than Wince 6.

The real issue .... (2, Interesting)

taniwha (70410) | more than 5 years ago | (#28380507)

Android doesn't use X - nVidia have drivers for X and for Windows - but not for Android - so no one's choosing nVidia hardware for Android - so nVidia's discouraging people from using Android ....

Just wait, if they're smart a year from now they'll have Android drivers and wont have a problem with it

Re:So... (1)

Klistvud (1574615) | more than 5 years ago | (#28380541)

Corporations have a deep aversion toward anything that is "free" -- be it free as in beer or as in libre! This is an important factor to consider.

No matter what level of maturity a product may reach, if it's a "freebie", the corporate world will simply frown upon it. It's just too much of a contradiction to their business model: it's almost like expecting the oil producers to give an honest judgment on, say, solar energy cars. And it's not about "malice" either -- they are not "evil", they simply have a blind spot for everything "free".

The sad thing however, is that the hardware vendors, incapable of making unbiased, merit-based evaluations of various operating systems, are the ones who decide which OS gets approved in the end...

Re:So... (2)

Chris Burke (6130) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379921)

I'm still just confused by the terminology. In the explosion of marketing names for things in between a phone and a laptop, I guess I missed the "smartbook". I assume that's like a netbook, only retarded? Because if there's one thing I know about computer terminology, it's that the word "Smart" always means anything but.

Re:So... (1)

Chyeld (713439) | more than 5 years ago | (#28380151)

It's 'hot off the presses' new [gigaom.com] , and appearently just a way of selling a particular brand of 'netbooks'.

A bit like how nVidia 'invented' the GPU back when the GeForce first came out by coining a new name for graphics acceleration cards.

Re:So... (1)

qoncept (599709) | more than 5 years ago | (#28380025)

What the hell are you trying to say here? At first it looks like your argument is that both OS's are designed for netbooks/PDAs/whatever, and that because of that, its impossible for one to be better. Just as an F-22 couldn't possibly be better at shooting down other planes than an F-16, because they were both designed to do it.

Then it looks like you concede that "Yeah, Windows CE probably is better." But instead of just leaving it alone, you make an excuse for Android. As if the guy said "Windows CE is better and it's due to a fault of Google's." Who fucking cares WHY one choice is better than the other? Are you going to choose inferior software because they had a sloppy drunk dev team, so, considering the handicap, they did alright?

Re:So... (1)

The Wooden Badger (540258) | more than 5 years ago | (#28380289)

Holy carp! That's like 91 dog years!

Corrupted opinion? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28378573)

Isn't this NVIDIA opinion somehow influenced by having Microsoft as customer for their Tegra chips going to upcoming Zune HD?

Bingo (0, Troll)

copponex (13876) | more than 5 years ago | (#28378873)

Nvidia is also trying to get someone in their corner for the upcoming fight against Intel during their licensing and patent wars. Good news for VIA and anyone else not stuck in the battle of monopolies.

Re:Bingo (1)

thsths (31372) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379789)

> Good news for VIA

There is no good news for VIA. The main problem with VIA is VIA - most of the chips a full of bugs and generally suck. Anyone can have a bad day, but consistently bad quality is not something that the market will tolerate indefinitely.

Of Course (2, Insightful)

bertoelcon (1557907) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379309)

The Zune HD that has been said to have a version of Win CE as the OS.

Re:Of Course (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28379353)

Like it would use Mac OSX or OpenBSD instead?

More business for ATI (1, Troll)

tyrr (306852) | more than 5 years ago | (#28378579)

If NVidia does not want a piece of Android business, it is NVidia's loss.
And AMD/ATI gain.
My money is on the Linux community figuring out how to incorporate NVidia support into Android with or without NVidia's corporate blessing. Heck, a few of NVidia engineers belong to Linux community too.

Part Of The NVidia Zune HD 'Agreement' (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28378885)

This is standard operating procedure for Microsoft contractees. Happened just this last month with Asus where as soon as Microsoft negotiated a new deal with Asus, Asus out of the blue started spouting anti-Linux FUD.

The Zune HD contract with NVidia obviously has the same type of garbage built in.

Re:Part Of The NVidia Zune HD 'Agreement' (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28379807)

No, it just had to be FUD right, it didn't have anything to do with the return rates for the Linux-based eeePC machines, did it. Or the fact that Linux actually performed worse than Windows on the same equipment, and quite frankly is a nightmare for vendor support.

Face it, customers didn't want the poorly setup/supported Linux eeePCs. Choosing Mandriva as the OS didn't help matters either.

P.S. - Nobody wants to spend more time searching for obscure CLI-only solutions to their OS problems, than actually using their machine to Just Get Things Done (TM).

Yawn... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28379979)

Dipshit, you're juvenile little tirade isn't impressing anyone.

Re:More business for ATI (2, Informative)

xlotlu (1395639) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379017)

If NVidia does not want a piece of Android business, it is NVidia's loss.

And AMD/ATI gain.

Modded interesting? Interestingly offtopic?

This is an ARM story. AMD doesn't do ARM, and while ATI does produce [amd.com] embedded graphics chips, I've never heard of them being paired with handheld devices.

Re:More business for ATI (1)

tyrr (306852) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379127)

AMD owns ATI. Thus, it is technically AMD/ATI.
Have you ever hear of NVidia (besides the Tegra we have yet to see) being paired with hand-held devices?
It is coming. New batteries, more efficient chips, more powerful cellphones. Everyone who's someone will be in that market

Re:More business for ATI (1)

Cornelius the Great (555189) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379119)

AMD/ATI sold its mobile graphics to Qualcomm, so they're no longer competing in the mobile graphics market. Hence, Tegra's only [worthy] competitor at the moment is Qualcomm's Snapdragon platform.

Re:More business for ATI (1)

tyrr (306852) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379199)

Ah, that's very unfortunate for AMD/ATI. ATI exists the mobile graphics market right at the moment when it starts heating up.
Does the sale preclude ATI from developing new mobile graphics platform in the near future?

Re:More business for ATI (2, Informative)

caladine (1290184) | more than 5 years ago | (#28380115)

It's my understanding that Qualcomm purchase the engineers, equipment, and all the IP from ATI's handheld division. The purchase of the IP would seem to preclude them from developing anything new for the mobile market in the near term.

Citation [zdnet.com]

Re:More business for ATI (1)

limaxray (1292094) | more than 5 years ago | (#28380419)

What about the TI OMAP3 platform that uses a GPU from Imagination Technologies/PowerVR? Or what about Freescale's i.MX515 platform? Not to mention both of these devices currently use the ARM Cortex A-8, while Tegra is still using the ARM11. Oh, and the best part is these devices are on the market now.

But yeah, there is a lot of competition in the high performance, low power market and NVidia is just the newest entrant. Frankly, as an embedded developer who is currently evaluating such a solution, there is nothing I've heard about Tegra that particularly peaks my interest. Sure NVidia is a big name in the consumer computer market, but that doesn't mean that translates to the embedded world. I'm much more interested in what is coming from TI and Freescale, and they both have excellent OSS support.

Re:More business for ATI (2, Interesting)

dfghjk (711126) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379565)

There's no such thing as a piece of the Android business. Android is a means to an end, not the end itself.

Re:More business for ATI (1)

sexconker (1179573) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379715)

Like how they got Nvidia support into Linux, right?

Oh wait.

Re:More business for ATI (1)

hairyfeet (841228) | more than 5 years ago | (#28380269)

Uhhh...pardon my ignorance, but does ATI even HAVE anything that competes with Tegra in the smartphone/MID space? Hell I thought I had learned about all the AMD/ATI products since converting from Intel/Nvidia, but I sure haven't heard of anything AMD has for the Tegra space. last I heard it was just Nvidia VS Intel, and of course we all know that Intel sucks for graphics.

So if you wouldn't mind, Citation Please?

not about the hardware (1)

chrwei (771689) | more than 5 years ago | (#28380537)

This is about software and the user interface being useful on a device of the target size and purpose. Android's target is smartphones not things that resemble the offspring of a PDA and ultra-portable laptop and the UI simple doesn't scale to anything bigger than a phone. WinCE's target has always been embedded systems, which do actually resemble these little PC-like devices, especially in the core hardware.

And just for the record, Windows CE and Windows Mobile are not the same. WM is based on the CE core, but they are no more the same than WinXP and the first gen x86 based XBox are.

CE for Tegra (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28378675)

I've heard that the new Zune HD will utilize Nvidia's Tegra platform, so maybe this is their way of paying back the favor.

Re:CE for Tegra (1)

Frosty Piss (770223) | more than 5 years ago | (#28380265)

I've heard that the new Zune HD will utilize Nvidia's Tegra platform, so maybe this is their way of paying back the favor.

Are Zune sales that good? How much of a favor could this be? Are people actually buying Zunes? I've never seen one in the wild in actual use, though I've seen non-working dummies glued to the display at Wal-Mart... Is that redundent? Zune == Non-working Dummies?

Android = no native code support (-1, Troll)

moon3 (1530265) | more than 5 years ago | (#28378731)

I have to reiterate this again and again. This might be unrelated to the story, but that is the problem that is keeping us from switching to Android.

I mean 20+ years of experience and all perfectly working C/C++ code and libraries have to be thrown out of window ? Cmon Google. Java is a nice toy, but unfit for production, get real.

Apple and Microsoft gave us native code with full support, native code comes first on their platforms so we are able to get maximum from the given hardware, lots of people will never downgrade to Java, sorry.

Re:Android = no native code support (1)

cuban321 (644777) | more than 5 years ago | (#28378843)

I mean 20+ years of experience and all perfectly working C/C++ code and libraries have to be thrown out of window ? Cmon Google. Java is a nice toy, but unfit for production, get real.

Someone has never heard of JNI [wikipedia.org] .

Re:Android = no native code support (1)

Sonic McTails (700139) | more than 5 years ago | (#28378891)

You do know that you can use C/C++ code right? JNI is fully supported you know. At most you'd have to rewrite the GUI code in Java and you need to do that with most mobile devices anyway (and here's a hint, Windows CE is different enough from mainstream Windows that it usually requires significant reworking unless your app uses a subset of the MFC libraries or a subset of .NET).

Re:Android = no native code support (2, Insightful)

demachina (71715) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379401)

"You do know that you can use C/C++ code right? JNI is fully supported you know."

You do know Google doesn't really officially support native code apps and there are no defined native mode API's to access the things you might want to access in native mode like graphics and audio. There are interfaces there but they are internal, not published and are "use at your own risk". If you use them chances are relatively high your native code will break the first time Google puts out a new version of Android.

I think the grandparent meant to say iPhone supports native code as a first class citizen while Google doesn't. You certainly can do some kinds of native mode apps that don't interact much with the hardware and OS, or do so only through clunky JNI.

Java is great for a lot of things, for ease of development, portability and improved security, but it is something of a limiting factor for applications that need maximum performance or to get closer to the metal.

Not sure if its intentional or not but in areas like media players it gives Google a degree of exclusivity in app development since they can use native code and their internal API's whenever they want, while that is a relatively dangerous thing to do for third party app developers.

Re:Android = no native code support (1)

ahsile (187881) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379939)

Let's just say that I'm currently working on an application for my employer that targets mobile devices (Win CE/Mobile) and tablet pcs (XP/Vista) at the same time. Even using .NET and the Compact .NET framework we have to do a TON of refactoring for GUIs. Heck, there's even basic classes/methods that you would expect to be available on the mobile version but aren't there. It ends up being a lot of code being ifdef'd (#if...) for each version.

Re:Android = no native code support (1)

i.of.the.storm (907783) | more than 5 years ago | (#28380055)

JNI is kind of a pain, but it's interesting that they allow it anyway. It seems like it bypasses their whole security platform idea with having programs run in a VM. Are there C headers/libraries for all the hardware you would want to access like graphics chip, accelerometers, cameras, etc? And I think it's a good thing that at the least you have to redo the GUI for a mobile app, because the desktop application paradigms don't transfer well to a small screen.

Re:Android = no native code support (1)

mR.bRiGhTsId3 (1196765) | more than 5 years ago | (#28380455)

I find JNI a pain, but generally have had good experiences with p/invoke. Thus, I was fascinated when I came across J/Invoke [jinvoke.com] which seems to work almost as well.

Re:Android = no native code support (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28378947)

Two ends of spectrum: maximum performance vs hardware independence.

Android targets developers that choose to write their code once and expect it to run on each new device without more work on their part.
Windows CE will target those that need to squeeze everything they can from the hardware.

Re:Android = no native code support (1)

tyrr (306852) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379019)

You are talking pure nonsense.
First, for many devices it is not about speed, it is about security. Java provides a very robust security framework to run untrusted code. If you were to make a similar security framework for C/C++, you would end up with Java.
Second, if Java runs too slow for you - buy a better CPU.
Third, I doubt you realize how many productions systems are running Java. My department alone is running a multi-million dollar platform all on Java.
Last, you actually can run C/C++ code on Android. You can run ARM assembly, C-Sharp, and Python too. But don't tell anyone.

Re:Android = no native code support (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28379435)

My department alone is running a multi-million dollar platform all on Java.

And it would just be a million dollar platform using C/C++ instead. Face it, Java will forever be bloated and slow.

Re:Android = no native code support (1)

moon3 (1530265) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379765)

Native code is not officially supported. The Android-SDK gave me Java last time I tried.

The trick of native code is that you do not need to buy expensive hardware to run you application at decent speed. You can run your server even on ARM Cortex while Java needs some expensive hardware to be even considered. Cost saving, green technology, etc. that is what native code enables. While Java is designed to sell pricey hardware from day one.

Re:Android = no native code support (1)

tyrr (306852) | more than 5 years ago | (#28380065)

Native code is not officially supported. The Android-SDK gave me Java last time I tried.

Crosscompile your application for ARM and push it on your Android phone with adb.

The trick of native code is that you do not need to buy expensive hardware to run you application at decent speed. You can run your server even on ARM Cortex while Java needs some expensive hardware to be even considered. Cost saving, green technology, etc. that is what native code enables. While Java is designed to sell pricey hardware from day one.

The trick with mobile devices is that users want to run hundreds of thousands of untrusted programs from application markets. Native code leads to viruses, trojan horses, keyloggers and all kinds of nasty things. Users have to have a protection mechanism. Java with its multilayer security is perfect for mobile applications.

If you are talking about servers, I have a newsflash for you. The majority of servers hardly use even 50% of their processing capacity on average. Java overhead at this stage of CPU development is negligible. Green movement will benefit more from saving the resources spent on development and maintenance of native code.

Re:Android = no native code support (1)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379835)

If you were to make a similar security framework for C/C++, you would end up with Java.

No you wouldn't; if you were to start with C, you would design something very simple that sat in kernel space and validated system calls according to a policy before allowing them to proceed. Fortunately, it turns out all modern UNIX-like systems come with something that can do exactly this (Windows NT does too, but it has such a horrible UI no one uses it properly).

The only way any program, irrespective of language, is able to influence any part of the system outside its own memory space is via system calls. You don't need to run your software in a VM to restrict the system calls it can access.

Re:Android = no native code support (1)

tyrr (306852) | more than 5 years ago | (#28380283)

There is nothing simple about solving the system call validation problem. You actually end up writing a VM.

You are also forgetting about the problem of arbitrary memory pointers. You don't have to break into the privileged kernel mode in order to break security. All you have to do is to read or write what you are not allowed to access.

Re:Android = no native code support (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28379025)

I would go even further in that there are many useful programs written in a variety of languages like C, python, perl, lua, etc. Years ago there was a lot of hype about a Pascal computer that even had hardware support for the language. It wound up in the the dustbin of history and I predict that a Java based single language computer will fare no better. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

dirty pirate (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28379213)

you stole that quote from george satayana you dirty fucking pirate

suck my cock

Re:Android = no native code support (4, Insightful)

chrb (1083577) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379111)

As Wikipedia says [wikipedia.org] , native code runs under Android fine. The Chrome web browser runs on Android. Chrome is not written in Java.

What you might mean is that you can't run native code on some specific mobile phone type device without hacks, and that you can't upload native code to the App Store. That much is true. In the first case, some manufacturers like to lock down their devices - the iphone is also pretty much locked down. In the second, Google want platform independence. But Android itself can clearly run native code - most of the software that it ships with is written in C. And you can distribute and install whatever Java code you want on any Android device, which is better than Apple's "you only load what we want you to load on a phone" rules.

Re:Android = no native code support (0, Troll)

moon3 (1530265) | more than 5 years ago | (#28380167)

Chrome is not written in Java

Thank you for this sir.
Google gives you Java (for App Store), but their own applications run native code? Google enjoys the power of native code and you are left with Java, so you are a second rate Java developer from day 1 on Android ? Google is more insulting to developers that Microsoft or Apple ever were.

Windows CE runs native, the portability point is pretty invalid. Also on iPhone I have proper GCC/G++ compilers, I do not have to rewrite everything to some other language. Google should do the same as Apple and give us GCC, Java should be optional not mandatory.

And you can distribute and install whatever Java code you want
OK, some people do not have a time to rewrite their applications to some interpreted language.. Windows CE and iPhone are perfectly fine platforms regarding this, they run native code no problem and you can deploy that code in the App Store.

Re:Android = no native code support (1)

0xdeadbeef (28836) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379311)

I have to reiterate this again and again.

Hmm... redundant loops. Perhaps the problem isn't the language, but your code?

Re:Android = no native code support (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28379641)

Java is a nice toy, but unfit for production, get real.

Troll. Troll!

Java is used in production in many places. There is no functional thing that c++ can do that java cant. Any many would say that java has better libraries and lower costs.

Re:Android = no native code support (1)

thePowerOfGrayskull (905905) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379759)

Java is a nice toy, but unfit for production, get real.

Might help to do a bit of research before making posts like this one. You realize that Blackberry has been an all-java platform for years now, and nobody is complaining about performance? Even on their new systems, which directly compete with the iPhone.

The problem here isn't with the Java platform, it's in the fact that Android is a custom implementation that is not standards compliant. This, in turn, means that the tens of thousands (or more?) of J2ME applications that have been developed over the years are useless on this platform. By choosing not to support it, Google has greater control over the platform - but they also compete with the "real" JME platform for mindshare, while providing no measurable advantage other than marketing.

Re:Android = no native code support (1)

mhall119 (1035984) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379889)

I mean 20+ years of experience and all perfectly working C/C++ code and libraries have to be thrown out of window ? Cmon Google. Java is a nice toy, but unfit for production, get real.

Canonical got Android apps running on Ubuntu on x86, without recompiling or emulation, can you do that with C/C++? JVMs are now very fast, JIT compilation and run-time optimization lets them match or beat native code for long running processes. Since the JVM is always running in Android, you don't keep feeling the startup cost, but you do keep benefiting from the optimizations. Java has been a standard for mobile application development long before Google got into the game.

hilarious (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28378767)

This is hilarious... Android will be as popular as the Linux desktop. If you subtract the developers that roughly an install base of 3 end users.

haha.

poor graphics support? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28378801)

i'm sure several users have had similar problems... they should google it.

Drivers (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28378819)

From TFA:
"The world soundly rejected the first netbooks that came out with Linux," he said. "Printers didn't work, and devices didn't get recognized. The whole thing was a mess."

I'm sure all printers come with WinCE drivers these days. Or maybe Nvidia knows how to install Vista drivers on CE?

While I haven't ever used Android (1)

FlyingBishop (1293238) | more than 5 years ago | (#28378849)

I've never found any Google products I have used to be inferior to their Microsoft counterparts.

I trust Nvidia to a point, but suspect they're just protecting their own interests, since their job would be a lot easier if they didn't have to worry about writing drivers for non-x86 architectures.

Re:While I haven't ever used Android (1)

mr_mischief (456295) | more than 5 years ago | (#28378895)

The ARM is non-x86 whether it runs Linux or WinCE.

ARM hostile to Linux? (4, Interesting)

chrb (1083577) | more than 5 years ago | (#28378935)

I was at a conference in 2002 where the chairman of ARM, Sir Robin Saxby, gave a keynote talk on ARM. In the Q&A session afterwards one of the attendees asked what Mr. Saxby thought of Linux - he replied that it was a toy operating system that would never amount to anything, and that open source was a useless strategy for developing software and he didn't see any place for it in the business world. The hall erupted with various PhD students and postgrads raising their hands, and after three people all said basically the same thing - that they use Linux and think open source is great - the chair had to say no more Linux questions. But after hearing what the guy at the top had to say, it would never surprise me to hear that ARM might be hostile to Linux and open source, even when it's running on their own chipsets.

Re:ARM hostile to Linux? (1)

jedidiah (1196) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379085)

That was a pretty rich comment given the state of Linux in 2002.

I would expect that nvidia would have an easier time porting their driver to Linux ARM than WinCE.

Re:ARM hostile to Linux? (1)

AceofSpades19 (1107875) | more than 5 years ago | (#28380613)

The sad thing is that I know people who are in IT departments that think the same thing about linux

Re:ARM hostile to Linux? (4, Insightful)

diegocgteleline.es (653730) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379525)

Well, back in 2002 he was not the only one. He has probably changed their opinion now that Linux is crucial for their survival.

Re:ARM hostile to Linux? (1)

IonHand (646698) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379607)

I think it's time to come out with an open instruction set architecture and kill these pathetic IP companies.

Re:ARM hostile to Linux? (1)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379905)

SPARC is an open instruction set and is already supported by Linux. The T2 is open source; why not download it, create a better design, and give the design to ARM licensees like TI, Qualcomm and Samsung for their next-generation SoCs to use. It must be easy, right? After all, 'pathetic IP companies' can design CPUs that power pretty much all mobile phones and handheld computers.

Let me know when I can download your code, or buy a SoC based on it.

Re:ARM hostile to Linux? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28380493)

I guess in 2002 Robin Saxby didn't expect that Risc Os could become an open source OS too. It is now and it may run on netbook hardware in the near future.

https://www.riscosopen.org/forum/forums/5/topics/166?page=1

Ernst

Not surprised (2, Funny)

rbanffy (584143) | more than 5 years ago | (#28378975)

It would be either that or not having Nvidia support on Windows 7 SP 1...

Who needs Android? (5, Interesting)

GPLHost-Thomas (1330431) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379051)

Really, the early success of netbooks loaded with Ubuntu showed clearly that there is no real need for Android. Now, there's going to be netbooks with ARM. GREAT, this is the time to demonstrate (if only it was needed) that Linux is portable, and that distributions like Debian can run perfectly on ARM chips. There WILL be some players in the industry that will understand it, sooner or later. I knew there will be a time where DFSG free OS would start becoming popular just because of the fact it can fit any hardware. It's great if it's demonstrated by using them on cheaper netbooks.

Re:Who needs Android? (1)

fnj (64210) | more than 5 years ago | (#28380127)

You, sir, are about the only insightful commenter on this entire thread. Whether or not Android blows the opportunity in front of it, Linux is totally on top of this.

Re:Who needs Android? (1)

Dragonslicer (991472) | more than 5 years ago | (#28380505)

I think you may have missed the point of Android, which was to run on mobile phones, where your input and output hardware is quite a bit different than on most, if not all, portable computers. Sure, you could run Debian on the hardware in an HTC phone, but that isn't the hard part. The bulk of the work would be in the UI programs, and most of the programs that are part of Gnome or KDE wouldn't work too well with the phone's hardware. You'd end up needing to rewrite most of the user applications anyway.

YOyu FAIL IT (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28379083)

knows fhor sure what

Why is this surprising? (2, Interesting)

somenickname (1270442) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379147)

A company that only begrudgingly supports linux with a massive binary blob and no real support thinks that it may be easier to support a platform where that kind of treatment is considered the norm. This does not surprise me. I have a lot of respect for the nvidia linux engineers and they seem like knowledgeable and good guys but, I would imagine that management has tied their hands and this is a political rather than an engineering decision.

Re:Why is this surprising? (1)

djeaux (620938) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379653)

I would imagine that ... this is a political rather than an engineering decision.

I would imagine you are correct. Just based on the years I spent in management, I'd say about 85-90% of corporate decisions are based on "politics" or "marketing." Engineering only gets a small slice of the remaining 10-15%...

Non-sense quote about device support (4, Insightful)

Joseph Lam (61951) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379243)

Mike Rayfield:

"The world soundly rejected the first netbooks that came out with Linux," he said. "Printers didn't work, and devices didn't get recognized. The whole thing was a mess."

And how is Windows CE/Mobile any better in that regard? I would think it's even worse.

A bunch of FUD? (2, Interesting)

xlotlu (1395639) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379509)

Maybe I don't get it, but this looks like a concerted FUD campaign against Android. I don't know much about the Android internals, but isn't graphics hardware acceleration handled in the DRM part of the Linux kernel? What does this have to do with Android?

Presumably Android would have to implement the rest of DRI (if they don't use the existing Linux infrastructure / didn't do so already), and next their equivalent of a X.org video driver. But what's the big deal?

Also, all video and graphics rendering in Android is done today by the operating system's Java code, a technique he says is too slow for HD video.

"There's no hardware acceleration. It's all software," Rayfield said.

So, huh? Because it's Java it can't use hardware acceleration?

Other major problems include the fact that the Android icons are too large, and apparently it's gonna take one year to make them small... Well, that makes a lotta sense.

It would make more sense if nVidia said "We're already having a hard time with binary blobs for those lousy x86 linux geeks. Now they want to do that for ARM too, and even worse, for something that doesn't use the X.org architecture. I say we better get together again next year."

corruption and collusion (4, Interesting)

speedtux (1307149) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379529)

After twenty years of Microsoft corrupting the industry and colluding with other companies to place their products, how can anybody take such statements seriously? Nvidia has strong ties to Microsoft, and when Microsoft tells them to jump, they simply ask "how high".

Personally, I think Android is not a very good choice for netbooks; Ubuntu Netbook edition is a much better choice. But Windows CE wouldn't even make my list of a usable netbook operating system.

Re:corruption and collusion (1)

GodfatherofSoul (174979) | more than 5 years ago | (#28380119)

That's not a fair comment. The problem with WinCE isn't that it's a terrible OS, it's that it wasn't designed from the ground up to be a mobile OS (or at least scalable). I've been developing for WinCE for about 3 years now, and the problem's I see are more 1.) M$'s crappy documentation and support for any of it's esoteric APIs, 2.) It's just not an efficient OS. , and 3.) the asinine decision to use a desktop UI model on a screen 2 x 3 inches square. It's a no brainer for a CEO to go with the devil he knows rather than hoping that Google will get its act together before he plans on going production.

Re:corruption and collusion (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28380337)

"Nvidia has strong ties to Microsoft, and when Microsoft tells them to jump, they simply ask 'how high'."

Ha! If they were actually true I would have had drivers for Windows Vista launch that were not crap.

Wrong way around? (3, Interesting)

FrankDrebin (238464) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379551)

Nvidia is busy optimizing its multimedia-savvy Tegra system-on-chip for Windows CE.

Apparently someone doesn't appreciate the difference between hardware and software.

Re:Wrong way around? (3, Informative)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 5 years ago | (#28380047)

Optimising hardware for software is not new, especially in the mobile market place. Most ARM cores, for example, have some specialised instructions to make it easier to implement a JVM (including things like bounds-tested array accessors). A lot also have special instructions in their DSPs aimed at making things like MPEG or H.264 decoding (or even encoding) fast. A GPU is basically a CPU specially targeted towards implementing something like OpenGL or Direct3D.

That said, optimising a SoC for an OS is a bit weird. You're meant to optimise for the applications, not the OS. If the OS needs the hardware optimised for it, and does much more than keeping out of the way of the apps (and making sure that the apps keep out of each others' way) then the OS is probably fundamentally broken.

Why the summary doesn't mention Java? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28379579)

"Windows CE also has a "low memory footprint and a good collection of apps,"

Native Linux can be stripped down to be really low on resources, and has multiple times the apps WinCE can count on. Problem solved.

"For instance, Android screen icons that fit on smartphone screens (usually 4-inches and under) are oversized on a smartbook's 8- or 9-inch screen, he said."

This is of course bullshit told to hide something else, or do we really believe multigazillion dollar companies choose their platform according to icons sizes?
Anyway, native Linux already counts on lots of small footprint and themable (ie customizable sizes) interfaces. See some projects at maemo.org [maemo.org] for an example of native Linux apps running on ARM hardware. Problem solved.

"Also, all video and graphics rendering in Android is done today by the operating system's Java code, a technique he says is too slow for HD video." "There's no hardware acceleration. It's all software," Rayfield said.

Native linux offers video acceleration. Problem solved.

"The world soundly rejected the first netbooks that came out with Linux," he said. "Printers didn't work, and devices didn't get recognized. The whole thing was a mess."

Well, I have sold a good number of Linux netbooks to a number of non technical people, and all of them asked to install XP after some months citing various difficulties, therefore I can confirm this to be at least in part true. Eventually it turned out all those Linux netbooks recognized their devices, printers, USB stuff and whatnot, but the amount of work required for whatever task the user was doing was "bigger" than on XP, where bigger meant push 4 buttons instead of 3 or open a shell and fire a couple commands instead of pushing a button.
It's not about being stabler or whatnot: Linux is good for technical people who enjoy chatting with the shell, while Windows users are lazy people who want to minimize the work on the computer to spend their time on other stuff. From this POV Linux wasn't, isn't and will never become a good operating system for the masses without losing its identity by becoming too Windows like.
For the rest of us, and back to the topic, Native Linux *can* be set up in order to recognize a plethora of peripherals.

The conclusion? All but one, not even a whole one, of these problems would simply not exist if Java wasn't used. Many of us raised some warnings about that, but Java dev^H^H^Hfanboys who love their language because it's the only one they know dismissed the argument. Thankyou very much.

For those who still didn't wet their toes with Java, stay well away of that crap.

Re:Why the summary doesn't mention Java? (1)

thePowerOfGrayskull (905905) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379887)

The conclusion? All but one, not even a whole one, of these problems would simply not exist if Java wasn't used. Many of us raised some warnings about that, but Java dev^H^H^Hfanboys who love their language because it's the only one they know dismissed the argument. Thankyou very much.

Erm... you make a very persuasive argument for a conclusion that reads like "the nvidia rep doesn't know what he's talking about, and I've demonstrated that". But the argument at hand has nothing to do with this conclusion... what can you give in support of "The problem is Java"?

Re:Why the summary doesn't mention Java? (1)

Homer1946 (1160395) | more than 5 years ago | (#28380057)

Linux is good for technical people who enjoy chatting with the shell, while Windows users are lazy people who want to minimize the work on the computer to spend their time on other stuff.

Even though I am someone who hates Windows I have to challenge this. You are saying that if Windows users want to do things other than work on their computer, then they are lazy? I supposed someone who wants to work on research curing cancer instead of spending more time getting their computer to work is lazy.

Damn, I hate lazy people.

Win CE (1)

zorro-z (1423959) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379699)

Only Microsoft would think of releasing a product whose more-or-less-official abbreviation means to grimace in pain.

More seriously, if WinCE genuinely has a smaller footprint + is more stable than Android, that says something really bad about Android.

Wait a minute (3, Interesting)

Pecisk (688001) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379757)

1) Poor UI - what he is talking about? Windows CE is a mess. Yes, Windows Mobile 5 was kinda Teletubies land as Windows XP, but still, it's a huge mess stiched together
2) Doesn't support devices larger than smartphones? Ohh boy, yes, it doesn't, because it doesn't aim for it!

Sounds like Microsoft partner trashing competitor. Propably there are technical reasons why Nvidia have chosen Windows CE, but these doesn't sound like valid one.

Re:Wait a minute (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28380129)

I had an HP Jornada 820, made around 10 years ago, which was apparently what Microsoft thinks is a Netbook. It had an ARM processor and worked fine, but I ended up abandoning it because it had no https and no pptp. There were several machines like that, in fact, NEC made some with MIPS processors. You can get these machines used for a song.

With WinCE you need to go look for a version of code compiled for your processor architecture. Generally, you can't find one, because nobody compiles for all the architectures.

If the machine had been running Linux, I'd have it still today.

Re:Wait a minute (1)

H0p313ss (811249) | more than 5 years ago | (#28380539)

1) Poor UI - what he is talking about? Windows CE is a mess.

It's all relative... I've been playing with Android on my Freerunner and while kind of sexy for a handheld technically it's not going to win any UI design awards.

In fact I'd say that for non-technical users (the majority of the market) it's got major usability issues.

Makes sense. (-1, Flamebait)

rickb928 (945187) | more than 5 years ago | (#28379797)

I'm guessing nVidia isn't really into the ARM market.

Optmizing hardware for Windows? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28379819)

Does any one find this sentence scary: "Nvidia is busy optimizing its multimedia-savvy Tegra system-on-chip for Windows CE."?

Why are we now optimizing hardware for software? Hardware should be designed to be as accurate and effective as possible. Let the OS optimize itself for the hardware. It is much more difficult to redesign hardware than software (hence the hard- and soft- prefixes). Hopefully, this is just a poorly worded sentence and we are not headed towards Winvidia.

as an embedded developer using ARM, SH4, MIPS, etc (2)

glebovitz (202712) | more than 5 years ago | (#28380457)

I ask, NVIDIA who?

Then I won't buy NVidia's offering... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28380471)

...or that of anybody else who goes with Windows CE.

NVIDIA doesn't like Linux in general on TEGRA (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28380481)

I work for a very large computer manufacture who is coming out with an ARM based PC. We looked at Marvell, Freescale, and NVIDIA. NVIDIA was the only one who has no support for Linux and because of this was marked off right away. Besides there lack of support for Linux there ARM CPU is pretty weak compared to Marvell and Freescale, there only advantage is the GPU. But because of the lack of Linux support we crossed them off right away. There really only hurting themselves.

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