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Indian CEO Says Most US Tech Grads "Unemployable"

kdawson posted more than 5 years ago | from the you-stereotype-i-draw-distinctions dept.

Education 1144

theodp writes "When questioned about his firm's US hiring, Information Week reports that Vineet Nayar, the CEO of the Indian outsourcing giant HCL Technologies, showed he can stereotype with the best of them, telling an audience in NYC that most American tech grads are 'unemployable.' Explaining that Americans are far less willing than students from developing economies like India, China, and Brazil to master the 'boring' details of tech process and methodology, the HCL chief added that most Americans are just too expensive to train. HCL, which was reportedly awarded a secretive $170 million outsourcing contract by Microsoft last April, gets a personal thumbs-up from Steve Ballmer for 'walking the extra mile.' Ballmer was busy last week pitching more H-1B visas as the cure for America's job ills at The National Summit."

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outsourcing and unemployment (5, Funny)

walshy007 (906710) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417387)

yes.. because getting in foreign workers will help REDUCE local unemployment.... maybe in soviet russia.

Re:outsourcing and unemployment (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28417403)

If you have 10 people and none of them have jobs, you have 100% unemployment. If you then bring in 90 people with jobs and keep the 10 people with no jobs, you have 100 people and only 10% unemployment.

See? Bringing in people and giving them jobs does help local unemployment.


Re:outsourcing and unemployment (4, Informative)

walshy007 (906710) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417559)

let us not forget that microsoft let go about 5000 workers to reduce costs, so your analogy then becomes similar to

You have 40 employed people and ten unemployed.. the employer then fires 30 of those and replaces them with foreign imports that are cheaper, now of the sample group instead of having 20% unemployed you have 50%

you then have the same number of jobs, but with more people to share them around between.

Re:outsourcing and unemployment (1)

LKM (227954) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417697)

Presumable, the idea is that there's not enough local talent to start a business or a local studio. It's possible, I guess; it seems that currently, there are not enough well-trained software engineers, and the way it is going, this problem may actually yet become worse. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28417393)

Huh? HCL? (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28417395)

I just graduated in computer engineering in the USA. I know stuff, but we never learned the HCL programming language.

Fixed that for you... (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28417397)

...Most Americans are unemployable...

Where's India's domestic economy? (3, Interesting)

tjstork (137384) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417399)

I'd say its time to pull the plug on free trade and let these people jump start their own local economies on their own merits, and not on shoveling their crap into the USA. India has not done a damned thing for the USA and I see no reason why the USA should throw its people out of work to subsidize India's economy.

Free trade is not worth it.

Re:Where's India's domestic economy? (5, Funny)

Swampash (1131503) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417429)

India has not done a damned thing for the USA

It would be hard to neatly express the USA's $11,400,000,000,000 debt without the zero. Invented in India.


Re:Where's India's domestic economy? (5, Funny)

nine-times (778537) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417461)

I'd much rather we were $114 in debt.

Re:Where's India's domestic economy? (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28417763)

You don't think $114 would be easier to pay off than $11.4 trillion, do you? Those bozos in Washington would bicker for months over how to pay the damned $114 and we'd miss a payment, get the late payment penalty, then the overdraft charge and telephone-assisted payment fee, then Barack's Amex would invoke the universal default clause in the fine print and BAM! we're back up to 11.4 trillion before you know it!

Re:Where's India's domestic economy? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28417467)

It would be hard to neatly express the USA's $11,400,000,000,000 debt without the zero. Invented in India.

Forget zeros, the 1, 2, 3.. 9 numeral digits were also invented there. Without them, you'd need a bean counter to do simple math using roman numerals: how much is MCLXII + CCXIII?

Re:Where's India's domestic economy? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28417633)

Yes, because the visual representation of a number totally determines your ability to calculate with it. That's why people using a abacus are so slow, and why binary computers are so bad at maths.

Re:Where's India's domestic economy? (1)

LKM (227954) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417705)

Binary also uses 0 and 1.

Re:Where's India's domestic economy? (1)

El_Muerte_TDS (592157) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417745)

No, binary uses true and false. It's only because of convenience that false = 0 and true = 1

Re:Where's India's domestic economy? (3, Insightful)

Hognoxious (631665) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417787)

Logic uses true and false. Binary is a number system.

Re:Where's India's domestic economy? (1)

Swampash (1131503) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417853)

Yeah, but by focusing on the zero I got to draw attention to the big string of them in the US bankruptcy score. More detail would'a ruined it.

Re:Where's India's domestic economy? (-1, Flamebait)

tjstork (137384) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417507)

It would be hard to neatly express the USA's $11,400,000,000,000 debt without the zero. Invented in India.

Ah yes, a stupid thing that we've run up because we trade freely with a bunch of nations that have no desire other than to screw the USA. The trade deficit, the budget deficit, go hand in hand.


Dude, you got your ass kicked by Pakistan last year, rolled over even worse than the French, and you call us "BURN". At least until we get rid of the stupid free trade, you should be grateful that the USA is fighting your war for you.

Re:Where's India's domestic economy? (1)

Swampash (1131503) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417825)

Hyuck, ya sure done got me good with that thur comeback Cletus!

Re:Where's India's domestic economy? (2, Funny)

t0qer (230538) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417451)

I would totally mod you up if I had points. Your comment was so poetically simple yet dead on. Thank you.

It works both ways (2, Insightful)

tanveer1979 (530624) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417513)

There was a time America used to peddle stuff all over the world and insist on free trade. Now Third world countries are peddling their labor and insisting on free trade. Karma, what goes around, comes around!

Re:It works both ways (1)

tjstork (137384) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417571)

There was a time America used to peddle stuff all over the world and insist on free trade. Now Third world countries are peddling their labor and insisting on free trade. Karma, what goes around, comes around!

Historically the United States has been a protectionist country. The USA was protectionist from its founding in the late 18th century all the way through the end of World War II. Then we got stupid.

Re:It works both ways (3, Insightful)

Toy G (533867) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417753)

You didn't "got stupid", it's just that your industry had grown so much that the internal market alone could not sustain further industrial growth.

Re:Where's India's domestic economy? (5, Insightful)

evn (686927) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417535)

Whether you agree with the outcome or not, foreign labor has helped to reduce the price of many of the goods and services that westerners rely on every day. India has allowed us to save $0.05, $5, $50, maybe $500 on a consumer goods at the cost of our manufacturing base.

The reason your typical Dell computer costs $400 is because they can ship part of the costs of support out to India. The same is true of big-box retailers like Walmart selling t-shirts and teapots cranked out in Chinese, Indian, and Indonesian factories for substantially less than local boutiques like American Apparel that sell US-made goods. Part of what you're paying for is branding, distribution chain inefficiency, fashion, etc. but it's important not to discount the labor cost--no matter how small--because that's all part of the race to the bottom.

If you don't like outsourced IT for any reason--"I don't like China's stance on Tibet" is as good a reason as "I find their accent makes resolving a problem over the telephone difficult"--then don't buy from companies that use it. You'll probably have to pay more for it, but nobody said having principles and sticking to them wouldn't require some sacrifices. Chances are good you'll find it's not as expensive as you think and a lot of times you'll end up with a better product/service because of it.

The masses have spoken: saving a few bucks is worth it. If you don't like it--vote with your dollars and encourage your friends and family to do the same. Arguing for government regulation so that american workers don't' have to be competitive is ridiculous. Screaming nonsense like "India hasn't done a damned thing for the USA" is rediculous when you consider the role workers in developing nations play in producing the products that fuel every aspect of our lives.

Re:Where's India's domestic economy? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28417641)

Whether you agree with the outcome or not, foreign labor has helped to reduce the price of many of the goods and services that westerners rely on every day.

Yeah, and the reason we need cheaper goods? Because we aren't fucking paid enough, maybe?

Re:Where's India's domestic economy? (3, Insightful)

Maxo-Texas (864189) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417815)

That's the thing--- it hasn't.

Drugs-- $5.00 here, $0.10 there
DVD's-- $19.99 here, $2.49 there (and in reality about .50 at the local markets-- but $2.49 full copyrighted retail).
Clothing-- $1 or less there--- $19.99 here.

There is *no* reason the clothes, drugs, movies, songs, etc. etc. should have that extreme of a price difference.
In a normal capitalistic society, we would be allowed to buy the 10 cent pills there and import them here and resell them for 20 cents.

We have all this dvd regionalized shit, and protected trade zones, and other restrictions on free trade.

Our declining wages would not matter so much if we really were getting the benefits of free trade.

But the wealth here is literally being pumped out of the country- and the jobs too.

Re: "India has not done a damned thing for the USA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28417679)

"India has not done a damned thing for the USA"

Not true!

The gave me Old Monk rum to drink while swear and shake my fist in their general direction...

Re:Where's India's domestic economy? (4, Insightful)

religious freak (1005821) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417743)

India has not done a damned thing for the USA

Uh, except for all the coding and tech support they're doing for us. Yeah, this kind of crap hurts when you hear it from this class of a guy that may very well control your future employment options, to at least some degree. But, I'd say their coding has done plenty for the USA... just ask the managers who have outsourced there. You don't like that comment? Does it enrage you? Well, then that's an emotional reaction and I'd say it's misleading you.

Economies are prosperous when they're efficient. They're efficient when the most work gets done with the least amount of cost. If going to India makes tech more efficient, the USA as a whole prospers. Does this hurt our feelings as geeks? Yes... hell yes. But you know what? I think I'm a better value than an Indian employee, and I think I can prove it (and I think I am proving it, along with many other IT folks here). Every single country that has shut itself to trade has suffered.. every.. single.. one. Why should we be any different - we obey the laws of macro-economics in this country! :)

I find it a little too convenient when the /. libertarian audience gets all antsy for government protection with regards to outsourcing. Should individuals take care of themselves and should society have as much freedom as possible or not? Ultimately, in 20 years, I think we're going to have a partner in India that we will be very happy to have, particularly with the rise of China. We'll also have such a depreciated dollar, and the Indian talent will be relatively scarce, we will reach a parity, and all boats will rise.

Re:Where's India's domestic economy? (2, Interesting)

Tablizer (95088) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417757)

I'd say its time to pull the plug on free trade and let these people jump start their own local economies on their own merits

Internal trade is largely how the US grew. Tariffs used to be high both ways. Yet the US grew from a lonely colony to a superpower with such "barriers". Exports are thus not the only path to growth.

I'm for balanced trade. They need to find a way to purchase more of our goods and services if they want us to buy from them. Imbalances cause career volatility and bubbles.

anecdotal, but (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28417409)

I've never spoken with an Indian out sourcing worker who knew his ass from a hole in the ground. The only things I saw come back from India were excuses, delays and weak attempts at acting as though they knew what they were talking about.

Re:anecdotal, but (1, Troll)

BrokenHalo (565198) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417779)

The only things I saw come back from India were excuses, delays and weak attempts at acting as though they knew what they were talking about.

Unfortunately, this is largely true. I often hear Indian, Asian and Chinese people carp at Western work practices, particularly our relatively short working hours. They usually have to shut up, though when it's pointed out that we actually get more done in those hours than they do in their longer day.

The CEO in the submission might be right about Westerners being unemployable under their conditions, but it seems simple enough to me: if all you want to pay is a monkey's wage, then all you'll get is a monkey.

Re:anecdotal, but (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28417811)

It depends who you deal with of course; but yes, generally I've found outsourced teams have no real innovation, you need to specify everything point by point, they don't want to go off on their own and solve problems.

However that's nothing compared to the "I deserve a good job and large salary" attitude endemic in US graduates. If anything their attitudes are worse because very few (of the ones I've dealt with) are taught to think for themselves either, but worse, they actually believe they know it all. Most US (and UK) degrees suck - they teach outmoded practices, bad design skills and very little that is useful, but the graduates believe that they know the right way and don't listen and don't want to learn.

Slashdot posters (or stack overflow posters, or any other real technical forum) are a rarity, we're generally here to learn, to discuss, and we don't mind too much about hanging our ignorance out for others to correct. Those are the people you want to employ, regardless of where they come from - but the US education system does not produce those, it produces people with unrealistic expectations and people who believe they no longer need to learn.

Move Microsoft to India (2, Insightful)

Baldrson (78598) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417415)

I recall talking to Congressman Brian Baird about this problem of US businesses over-utilizing immigrants. He had the standard reply, "But they tell me if they don't get the visas, they'll have to outsource business to India!" My reply wasn't standard: "They shouldn't just outsource to India, they should MOVE to India! The US created these industries without massive immigration [] . The problem with the US isn't a lack of immigrants."

Re:Move Microsoft to India (2, Insightful)

Kokuyo (549451) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417551)

The US created these industries without massive immigration

We must be thinking about two separate versions of 'the US' because the one I know today consists of 99.9% people with migration background.

Personally, I think the man is right. In light of what Indians are willing to do for less money, of course Americans are unemployable. Vice versa you could also say that Americans are just not willing to be enslaved the way Indians are. So his whole statement becomes rather relative, doesn't it?

The Problem is that we keep being willing to receive our support from Indians and other foreign countries. Since EMEA support from HP moved to Sofia, I literally HATE to call them up. Not because those people are unwilling to help or rude about it. No, they are perfectly fine people. But the fact remains that there's a language barrier between us. The whole process has become that much more bureaucratic and time-consuming.

It's funny, though (not haha-funny but rather innat sad-funny) how even HP Switzerland is powerless against HP America's management. They are shaking their heads just as much as we are.

Another funny thing, IMO, is that somehow, back then when they still had their own techies and didn't outsource them all for worse pay and more hours, their bottom line actually looked better, didn't it? Isn't HP struggling much more today than it was around 1990? Now, I'm not implying that correlation equals causation, but one should think that point through, I think.

Re:Move Microsoft to India (4, Interesting)

twostix (1277166) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417591)

I posted this before and I'll post it again.

So far in the last 12 months I've had three side projects that projects that were outsourced but for whatever reason such a mess was made of them that the clients have brought them to us to fix at a higher than normal rate.

My employer's now collaborating with an "reverse" outsourcing mob who've set themselves up to help people bring their failing outsourced projects back and are getting a fair bit of work through it.

To be honest, the quality of code I'm seeing is easily the worst I've ever seen and that includes half-assed open source projects. Whether that's because it's just "sweatshop code" as one client put it or they are attempting to write super advanced AI code generators and using them to generate the code...and failing miserably, I don't know. But it's terrible. From the complete lack of imagination and forward thinking in design, right down to the god awful highly inconsistently cased variable names.

Remember this is *three* different projects from three different Indian companies theoretically written by three different sets of programmers. The code all looks and feels the same, which leads me to believe there's something going on industry wide over there. What that is I have no idea but they need to fix it quick smart as the industry as a whole is getting a bit of a reputation.

What I do know is people are willing to pay much more once they've tried outsourcing and failed.

Those that don't go out of business in the mean time that is.

(Yes I'm sure there's some top quality code coming out of India, I doubt most of it is written by the sorts of companies in this articlee).

Re:Move Microsoft to India (5, Insightful)

digitalchinky (650880) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417855)

I'm living in the Philippines, I can answer the crappy code part. While many might like to think of us as being a 'third world' kind of country, we are more of a follower of first world trends in disguise, we do it by building cheap look-a-likes and selling at a price our market can accommodate. We don't really fit the glove of this whole "X World" thing.

That said, Why: It's simple. We are what we are because our ethos is "Near enough really is absolutely good enough, anything better is a waste of money, effort, and time". An analogy: You want a straight and level sidewalk? Damn, that's going to cost you extra. And you want it free of obstructions like telegraph poles, open drains, plus all the little lines that we refuse to step on? You want wheelchair access too? And you want it to actually be 'finished'? Well, for that kind of crazy desire, your price has now reached exactly the same as what you would pay in first world USA or anywhere else in the world for the same quality stretch of sidewalk.

Americans want stuff done on the cheap. Guess what - you actually do get what you pay for! (I know, who'd have though!)

Re:Move Microsoft to India (1)

LKM (227954) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417739)

"The US created these industries without massive immigration"

Wait, Indians invented the computer all by themselves? Damn, I must really have been asleep during my history classes.

~*racists*~ (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28417421)

If they judged employability based on quality of code and not on skin color or nationality, most Indians would be considered unemployable. Just putting that out there.

ORLY? (1)

node159 (636992) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417441)

From my experience the experienced tech employees from developing economies are unwilling to implement, let alone master the 'boring' details of tech process and methodology' let alone their less experienced colleagues.

America doesn't hold a monopoly on incompetence you know.

All I have to say is 'Citation Needed' Mr Nayar.

Re:ORLY? (3, Insightful)

Maxo-Texas (864189) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417589)

The last code delivered by Infosys was functional... but had to be ripped back out of production.

The next bit of code didn't follow any of our published standards. It took several days to fix the obvious problems, then it got booted out of testing for a week's corrections.

They used to be a lot better back in 2003.

The biggest problem right now is that they won't say "no" to management about anything. Insanely crazy schedules-- "Sure, we can meet that". Grossly abbreviated testing... "Okay- we can mitigate that risk".

I think most of the super sharp guys are now management there. The actual coders are now getting down to low experience yes men/women who are not as clever and rush things without following standards.

Doesn't matter-- you just can't get around the fact that they currently make 1/10th of what we do and bill out at 1/3 of what we do.

Re:ORLY? (5, Insightful)

bladesjester (774793) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417785)

Doesn't matter-- you just can't get around the fact that they currently make 1/10th of what we do and bill out at 1/3 of what we do.

This is part of the problem with the kind of short term "thinking" that a lot of the MBAs who decide to outsource a lot of this stuff engage in. They don't realize and/or don't care that paying 1/3 of what it would cost to write it here is actually more expensive in both "money cost" and missed opportunity (which is often the *really* big price that causes a lot of companies to go under) when you have to do it several times over before you get something close to usable.

Instead, they tend to see things more like this: "I cut our expenses by x%. I want a bonus. Now let me find another place to work before this decision catches up with me."

Re:ORLY? (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28417819)

My own employer - which is why I'm posting anonymously - went through a fascination period with offshoring coding projects over the last several years. My group tried it twice - under the pressure of management to get more changes implemented faster. Of those two attempts and four others that other friends of mine at the company have been involved in, three have been unmitigated disasters and essentially just cost money and time only to have us have to rewrite the whole thing, two performed some of the functionality but were missing big chunks and completely unmaintainable crap code, and the final one was tolerably functional but still buggy.

In the end, having gone a few rounds with the Indian outsourcers with them trying to force them to live up to their part of the contracts (maintainable code that does what we specified - and believe me, our software requirements docs are usually incredibly detailed), we usually just decide that it's failed and cut the cord. I was never a big fan of the idea, but having seen repeated failures, I'd personally never recommend it as a solution to anyone. If you absolutely must do it, be sure whatever you're handing off is a closed system (meaning, not a lot of dependencies or interfaces, and definitely not a lot of "business knowledge" in the project) and be sure the contract has specific test percentages that must pass before each payment is made. Also, some stipulation on following a pre-defined coding style, as well as design reviews by internal people can help immensely as well. Just make sure that their biggest payments are actually tied to successful results - otherwise they'll try to weasel on you, or just decide that last 20% of the project isn't worth the last 20% of pay.

That's all about off-shore outsourcing, though. Of our H1Bs, several do excellent work on par with any of our best domestic employees, and several couldn't code "Hello World" (and have been not-so-promptly fired). That's not that much different from our domestic employees, except that we can't seem to get rid of the incompetent ones as easily.

Re:ORLY? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28417603)

America doesn't hold a monopoly on incompetence you know.

Yup. No kidding. Working for a large US company with IT outsourced to a company using staff shipped in from India was a nightmare.

These geniuses couldn't troubleshoot any server issues. They would only restart when the issue would reappear they would just bounce it back to IT as not their problem.

Coding software? They would happily write bugs in the software claiming they followed the business requirements and happily thought they should get a pat on the back for writing software that wouldn't work.

If Americans are unemployable.... (5, Insightful)

madfilipino (557839) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417455)

If Americans are unemployable then why are they the ones paying the Indians to do the job? The money is coming from somewhere, and to make others do the work for you takes some brains. What this guy doesn't answer is why is it that when I have to review code coming from India it is full of bugs, short cuts, and shit that doesn't make a damn bit of sense even to the Indian staff that's stateside?

Re:If Americans are unemployable.... (3, Informative)

electricprof (1410233) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417495)

The salient part of comments was the "too expensive" part, and not the "unwilling" part. To me it is clear that his agenda is simply to pay less, which is most likely linked to the H1B visas.

Re:If Americans are unemployable.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28417557)

You're probably dealing with Indians that would be considered "unemployable" by this guy.

Re:If Americans are unemployable.... (3, Informative)

TheTurtlesMoves (1442727) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417587)

The money is coming from somewhere...

Don't you remember the economic meltdown? Turns out the money was, and still is, coming from nowhere.

India: The skrypt kiddies of programming (5, Interesting)

TiggertheMad (556308) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417683)

I have to review code coming from India it is full of bugs, short cuts, and shit that doesn't make a damn bit of sense

Amen. I won't say that all the programmers in India suck, because that would be an inaccurate stereotype. However, I will say that The worst code I have ever seen from American programmers I have worked with was better than the best code that came back from Indian outsourced groups. I suspect that all the GOOD INDIAN PROGRAMMERS CAME TO AMERICA TO MAKE BETTER MONEY.

Why would you hire the leftovers? Really, you think that you can just get better quality by spending less? Really?

Re:India: The skrypt kiddies of programming (4, Insightful)

0123456 (636235) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417759)

Why would you hire the leftovers? Really, you think that you can just get better quality by spending less? Really?

Here's the deal: Manager X tells their boss that they can save the company millions of dollars by sacking US IT staff and sending the work to India.

When the software comes back from the Indian sweat-shop it's a steaming pile of sacred cow shit, but by that time Manager X has got big brownie points, a big bonus and a promotion and doesn't have to deal with it. Now the problem is dumped in the hands of Manager Y and the few US IT staff who are still left at the company.

This is just another example of the perverse incentives in Western business which gave us delights such as the credit crash, where bankers could make multi-million dollar bonuses by lending billions to people who never had any chance of paying the money back... of course they wouldn't have to repay their bonuses when the loans went bad, and the government would bail out the banks anyway.

Re:If Americans are unemployable.... (4, Insightful)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417687)

when I have to review code coming from India it is full of bugs, short cuts, and shit that doesn't make a damn bit of sense even to the Indian staff that's stateside?

Umm.. because it's written by programmers? :)

Seriously, this is standard no matter what the nationality.

America is the only "Speculation" country. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28417727)

You don't see any risk-taking in these little foreigner 3rd-world countries. Yea, the one's that have rampant overpopulation, generate more old-wives tales than 4chan. Yea their the one's like Mexico that nickle-and-dime labor markets over ruling empires like the USA, to the point that the value of life itself is a depressing implosion to privilege of malnourished death rather than to be served as a delicacy on a street-corner grill. Yea, with such wonderful countries that make life such a mediocre contemplation of excess rags and disease, they can brag all they want about how their royalty are inferior to the USA's middle-class as they rule the impounded masses over their driftwood houses and bamboo shanti's.

Free Trade my ass. No other country than the USA has been so risky, that it's debt draws to unhand land to these foreigners when the foreigners themselves wouldn't dare escrow any foundation for supporting futures and enterprise.

Just cut the debt, and declare war on the world. U.S. debt is illegal to go overseas. If they think they can buy U.S. debt, then they can get a bullet in the head for preventing the USA from paying back it's debts. Debt becomes void when it is snuck out of the country.

Fuck mexico, china, india, and especially Vatican City. Without the USA, 3rd world has no reason; they were the underminors that commit economic warfare daily by the U.S. corporations overcompeting the local markets to hurt Americans.

Re:If Americans are unemployable.... (3, Interesting)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417817)

That money came from banks who threw as much as you wanted at you provided you put up your house as collateral.

How it works now, where the real estate bubble popped and banks cling to money like it's worth anything anymore is beyond me, though.

But ... maybe just because banks stopped handing out money like crazy, people can't spend anymore, got no job or got laid off, and the economy is in the gutter? I don't want to say that spending money you don't have is any good, nor do I say that banks should hand any bum money for nothing (and, face it, giving you money for a house that's already drowned in mortgage is 'for nothing'). But what some people don't understand is that the economy can only thrive if people have money to spend. To have money to spend, people need jobs. To make "everyone" have a job you effing have to stop shipping in more people. It should be a no brainer.

One of the core reasons for the economy downturn is simply that companies tried to manufacture in China and India and sell in the US and Europe. That doesn't work. You give a little money to Chinese and Indian people who can basically survive (but not buy your fancy high tech, 'luxury' crap) and pay nothing to US and European people who should in turn buy it. Buy it with what money? People need jobs to earn money, to have money that they can spend. It is as simple as that.

Re:If Americans are unemployable.... (1)

Exception Duck (1524809) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417827)

$11,400,000,000,000 debt

enjoy capitalism (1, Insightful)

DragonTHC (208439) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417469)

The entire cause for these outsourcing problems is capitalism. The endless drive to increase the bottom line means that businesses no longer concern themselves with ethics or morality. They cross borders to find the cheapest labor possible. They find out how to deliver the bare minimum for the maximum possible return.

These are all tenets of modern business.

They take for granted their endless supply of customers. The simple way to deal with this is to boycott companies who outsource.

Let management, sales, and any representative know that you don't like a company who won't hire US workers. Write your congresspeople to let them know that Americans jobs are more important to you than corporate profits.

There has to be a balance. When corporate entities decide profit is more important than people, whatever side of the counter they're on, they need to be dealt with the American way; with your wallets. Vote with your wallets. Let them know we don't like their way of doing business. Though they'll probably lobby congress to pass laws to force you to do business with them, and they'll sue anyone who uses the competitor. Welcome to the new American century.

Re:enjoy capitalism (2, Insightful)

Maxo-Texas (864189) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417647)

I think the problem with corporations is the same as the problem with copyright.

Both were created for the public good- not for the private good.

The primary stakeholders in each has lost sight of the fact that their special privileges were created for the public good.

When it gets bad enough, those rights can be taken back.

Re:enjoy capitalism (2, Interesting)

kendoran (1091611) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417649)

One of the benefits of proper capitalism is that you are free to set up your own business, hire only US workers, and advertise that you do so. You may even be able to produce at lower cost than those companies you resent so much. You are also free to "boycott companies who outsource."

Ethics and morality are absolutely compatible with capitalism. The issue with ethics and morality in business is a cultural and philosophical one; not an economic one.

And please read up on the definition of capitalism: [] "An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market."

Also: "An economic and political system characterized by a free market for goods and services and private control of production and consumption. (Compare socialism and communism.)"

Re:enjoy capitalism (4, Insightful)

guacamole (24270) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417715)

Vote with your wallets

This will never work. Just like businesses, most people care about their bottom line. Any Midwestern autoworker would sign under your post, and yet look at their spending habits outside of buying (heavily discounted) American cars. I bet they don't think twice about buying the cheapest jeans or kitchenware made in china while shopping at some mega retailer.

That's funny... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28417473)

That's exactly how I feel about the code quality I get when I outsource to India.

HCL Ha Ha (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28417489)

I know there is going to be a lot of flak directed at HCL.
But unfortunately HCL is not the only monkey around.
I live in India, and have a lot of friends working in such companies (Infosys, Wipro, HCL, TCS etc., etc.,)
These service companies have lot of PR support due to feeding poor kids meals blah blah (you get the philantrophy angle, right?)

However beneath the facade lurks pure evil.
Firstly these are service companies. they bill clients by the hour. Which then brings us to their processes and employees.
Innovation and smart working is discouraged, and the training given is "how to bill maximum hours" and "how to fool the client into believing you are working".

So these drones are taught how not to work smartly, how not to do more with less time. you get tonnes of reports tones of meaningless slides to fool the clients, who are anyways willing to get fooled.

But kid yourself not, same is the case with US based service companies also, but with service companies a smaller percentage in US(except in Law area), things don't seem obvious.
But Indian IT has become a service economy with drones. Drones who are dumb "copy paste" coders.
I am in a product company, and often we get software engineers with 10 years of "coding" experience who do not know how to use regular expressions. Infact in their job, they would do a manual search and replace, because they can bill more hours to client.

Such practices actually make hiring intelligent engineers bad, They want drones.
Till few years back, when product companies were unheard of in India, many people migrated off-shore. Nowadays the drain has stemmed, but with lots of money coming in, even good engineers are flocking to this circus, and the whole place is a mess.

Now why do Amercian comanies like to get screwed? Well the managers there can justify their paychecks more readily if tonnes of drone like reports and jargon filled meaningless data is thrown around in board meetings.

your PHBs love these drones. They work for 14 hours a day at half the cost. OTOH, an intelligent enginner will work for 4 hours finish the work, and charge double. How will they boast that they have a cheap engineer working for 14 hours a day?

Now Microsoft loves these companies very much. Because they promote windows, and in their advertisements, boast about better performance and all that BS. The public here trusts these guys. Wow CEO used to clean his own toilet. Woweee!

They go to these fund raisers, do hoop haa about poor kids, give a few hundred dollars to a charity, and they are the ambassadors of good will.

The dark side is brushed under the carpet.
Whats not told is that number of hours each employee spends at his/her desk is counted. Every time you go in your wing, your clock starts ticking.
Every time you go out, clock stops.

Companies like Accenture India division make employees sign on bonds that they are willing to work 12 hours a day. Its all a circus, and the American PHBs love their circus animals.
Who suffers. Grads in the US, and engineers like us who have so limited options in India. Moreover our reputation suffers. We are clubbed "Indian engineers are not intelligent".

On the plus side product companies are growing, but on the downside most of these have these drones who cannot unlearn what the service industry taught them?
Ever wonder why India does not have companies like Intel, Lenovo, Huawai emerging, but only subsidiaries and service drones?
Well I just gave you your answer.

Re:HCL Ha Ha (1)

Tablizer (95088) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417807)

your PHBs love these drones. They work for 14 hours a day at half the cost. OTOH, an intelligent enginner will work for 4 hours finish the work, and charge double. How will they boast that they have a cheap engineer working for 14 hours a day?

Let's face it, capitalism is ugly. Perhaps necessary to some extent, but still ugly; like a prostate exam. Dancing with the devil can take its toll.

Re:HCL Ha Ha (1)

codekavi (459992) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417829)

mod parent up

...News at 11. (5, Funny)

nine-times (778537) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417493)

CEO of Indian outsourcing company says Indians are better workers than Americans. In other news, CEO of GM says that GM is a better company than Toyota.

How Odd (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28417521)

My tech support coming from India is unintelligible

He has a bit of a point (2, Interesting)

SuperKendall (25149) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417533)

I was a CS major.

One of the most practical courses I took was one where we did team programming projects, and had to work on a spec. That was as close to real life programming as I ever got...

I don't think it should be a focus but a basic understanding of some process (any process as new processes are derived from elements of old ones) would go a long way to new grads fitting into IT work (which is where most people doing computer stuff in college end up).

Re:He has a bit of a point (1)

mlts (1038732) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417821)

My last semester of CS, I took a similar class. The class was about getting a project off the ground and focusing on getting a team to not just put out code, but deal with a customer and interactions, and getting the UI to work for the end user, as opposed to the programmer. It gave experience for people who weren't familar with UNIX to both source code systems, and trouble ticket systems (JIRA and Subversion specifically.)

Maybe even five years ago, working as part of a dev team was less of an issue, but in CS today, its almost certain that if one gets hired on as a developer, a major part of their job will be dealing with other people's code and being able to modify/debug/add onto it with as few issues as possible.

Hahaha, Six Sigma *snort* (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28417539)

His complaint about American college grads is that they aren't trained in bullshit corporate feel-good busywork initiatives like Six Sigma? I take his rejection as a compliment. While his robotically obedient employees are busily documenting their processes, American college grads will be inventing the technology they'll be adopting 5 years from now.

secret ?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28417553)

"reportedly awarded a secretive $170 million outsourcing contract by Microsoft"
umm, if it's reported, how is it secretive then ?

Re:secret ?? (1)

Ian Alexander (997430) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417655)

The fact that it was awarded is public knowledge. What it covers is not public, or a good deal of it.

Here we go again (1)

jackzob (1582137) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417555)

This post has the potential to trigger another round of "India sucks" or "Americans are dumb" comments. Frankly, its unwanted and its unnecessary to paint everything as Black and White. Both countries are dependent on each other. Can't help it if citizens of both nations can't accept this simple fact. The common threat to India as well as US is China. Deal with it!

Re:Here we go again (1)

bsDaemon (87307) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417651)

We could just as easily say the common threat to the US and China is India, or that the US is the common threat to China and India. How does off-loading this onto China change the facts at all? For the majority of cases, India does suck and Americans are dumb, not just in comp sci or it. India probably needs us more than we need them, though. We don't /need/ to pay less for stuff, we just want to. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of design work or innovatinve/inventive thinking going on in India these days, just where the grunt work goes because they're the ones asking for it, because they need the jobs.

Re:Here we go again (1)

resonantblue (950315) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417749)

"The common threat is ... China"

So much for not painting things as "black and white."

Americans are unemployable... (3, Insightful)

ZiakII (829432) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417567)

when you pay them $15/hr and expect them to be good at what they do.

Re:Americans are unemployable... (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28417659)

I'm paid $15/hour and I'm good at what I do. You can live pretty well here in the US for $15/hour.

You won't be driving a BMW, of course, but I find that luxury and living well are not necessarily the same thing.

Re:Americans are unemployable... (1)

ZiakII (829432) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417845)

I'm paid $15/hour and I'm good at what I do. You can live pretty well here in the US for $15/hour.

You won't be driving a BMW, of course, but I find that luxury and living well are not necessarily the same thing.

$15/hour is a $31,200 year. That is fine maybe when your single, but when you get a family it is not.

Yes, we yanks are such dolts! (5, Funny)

spiffmastercow (1001386) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417569)

If only we could have those 2-week programming courses you give your Indian programmers before you let them loose on mission-critical projects, imagine what great programmers we could be!

Re:Yes, we yanks are such dolts! (1)

scjohnno (1370701) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417669)

Why, you could be as great as these [] people!

Re:Yes, we yanks are such dolts! (1)

mgblst (80109) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417861)

Yes, it is the Indians to blame for being given mission-critical project with clearly very little over site.

I think the problem is that teams over here think they can get working teams over there, using the same processes they have already used. In fact, there is a lot more over site and control needed of off-shoring development.

Anonymous Coward (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28417583)

there's a reason why those jobs are outsourced, it's because it's A LOT CHEAPER. dont blame the economy on other countries ability to provide labor, companies want to save money.

the government needs to drive down the cost of health care, once that's done, jobs could stabilize in the U.S., not everyone could afford to pay for their employees medical expenses.

Thus spoke the Professional Bullshitter (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28417611)

I will most likely be called a racist (and I guess I did become a little racist after this experience), so I am posting as a coward. So, I got my Masters in CS at a top-30 US University. I am European and most of my fellow students were Indian & Chinese. The Americans were few. In my experience, the worst students were Indians. Now, I am not saying all or most of the Indians were bad, and I am not even saying that those that I consider the "worst students" were stupid or even less competent than some other low-performance students. But if a European, a Chinese, an American was bad (although the few Americans we had were all pretty good), you could TELL. The Indians seemed to be professional bullshitters, you could not tell the good ones from the total bs ones. They could fool their professors easily, they could even fool some recruiters...
I remember I was at a job fair hiring for a technical position. I got about 10 CV's from Indians that day, and all of them were the same. Yes, the names were different, the layouts were different, the places and even universities were different. However they all had apparently won 1st place on the X (indian village? you've never heard of) math olympiad, they all elaborated on some sort of major project they had undertaken to revamp X airline's ticketing system (which I could tell was the weekly homework in our transaction processing class), and of course all were scoring 99% on their undergrad Indian university. What should I do, call all of them for a follow up interview to figure out who's just BSing and who's not?

#1: (2, Interesting)

circletimessquare (444983) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417615)

if you are poor, you tend to be more highly motivated than when you are rich (and yes, middle class, or even lower middle class american counts as rich in this world)

if you are poor, you can be paid a lot less to do the same job than someone less motivated and in a better socioeconomic position

do you know what #1 and #2 are? facts. now mod me troll and flamebait, but you know i speak the truth. deal with it (or more likely, suppress my words and go on whining)

computer programming is a rather interesting skill in the internet age: if you have a terminal, and a keyboard, all that matters is the quality of the mind behind those two things. doesn't matter where you are, doesn't matter your age, doesn't matter your education level. here on slashdot, we are all familiar with the internet as a universal leveller when it comes to things like music distribution or political dissent. well guess what: it applies to computer programming as a career choice as well

that fact is not nice if you are rich westerner, but it is still a fact nonetheless: you have a hell of a lot of highly motivated, much cheaper competition out there. deal with it, or whine. but i don't see what the whining is supposed to get you except self-righteous victimization. it certainly won't get rid of the competition or get you higher pay

life is not always kind folks. just fucking deal with it already and stop the pathetic whining

Re:#1: (1)

Tablizer (95088) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417849)

I don't think its so much about being "poor", for many Indian programmers have maids, but rather it's being "expendable". Young unmarried programmers can work 12-hour days non-stop. However, they usually burn out after 10 or so years. Thus, PHB's need a fresh batch. The bigger the labor pool, the more pre-burn-outs there are. It's more oil wells to pump dry.

My observations. (5, Insightful)

Lord Kano (13027) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417629)

On one level, that may be true. There are a lot of people who think that College is supposed to be the same as a tech school. They go to college expecting to be trained for a specific career. Some colleges have begun to oblige and are acting like the trade schools that some students (and parents) expect them to be.

If you've only been trained in retreading tires, you don't know how to mount a new tire on the rim and balance it. When the CS requirements of some schools consist of "MS Office" in three different sections, how in the fuck do they expect their grads to know anything?

Now, on the other hand there are plents of schools who are giving real and complete tech educations. These people are constantly getting screwed by employers who give up after interviewing a few of the other kind of student.

Lastly you have the tech executives who want nothing more than to lower costs. They want the cheapest labor, and nothing else. They are pushing to raise the H1B caps. They are pushing for outsourcing. It has nothing to do with the quality of US grads. It has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that they want to pay people less money. If I spend 6 years in college and have a Master's degree, you can kiss my ass with your $35k offer. The guys right off the boat from Bombay will be willing to take that sort of job. They don't have $50-200k in student loans to pay back. It's basic economics. What this glut is doing is providing a greater supply of labor in order to drive down prices.

If you're the only plumber in your town, you can charge pretty much whatever you want. No one else has the skills, knowledge or tools to do that work. What happens if overnight four more plumbers come to town? Instead of being able to charge $75 per hour, you may have to cut back to $50. What happens if ten more plumbers come to town? You'll suddenly find yourself working for minimum wage. That's what certain executive-types are trying to do to technology.


Unemployable? (5, Insightful)

Xenkar (580240) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417645)

Perhaps Mr. Nayar should stop beating around the bush and just state the reasons why he thinks Americans are unemployable:
Americans enjoy running water.
Americans don't want to live in a small mud hut with their whole extended family.
Americans don't want to work 80 hours a week on slave wages with no overtime.
Americans have a higher cost of living in regards to just about everything.
Americans usually need cars to function in American society.
Americans want to have 72"+ LED backlit LCD TVs.
Managers don't get bonuses for hiring Americans.

I personally think that every job should have a wage that a person can live off of, "unskilled" or "skilled". If you want to see something funny, hand a CEO a floor buffer and watch him fumble about with it.

Pay peanuts (3, Insightful)

syousef (465911) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417653)

...get code monkeys.

I wonder what he earnt this year? I would say that a rich overpaid CEO complaining that people won't accept a sub-standard wage are the epitome of hypocrisy and greed. I'm surprised he's not whining that good slaves are hard to find.

What a crock of shit (5, Insightful)

nukem996 (624036) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417661)

I'm currently working at a major US tech company and litterly every program I have inherited from some out sourcing group is utter crap. I'm talking about EVERY variable is a global variable, one source file for a 5000 line program, no makefile just a line at the top which says compile with gcc blah blah blah, and the list goes on. The reason for out sourcing is not skill its cost. Why pay an American programmer who knows what hes doing when you can out source it and get a program which barely works and when bugs arise blame something/someone else.

In the long run these companies are going to learn the hard way that paying an out sourced developer who has a 3 month class in C will get you nowhere near a developer with a CS degree in terms of quality, functionality, and efficiency.

Gee, I'm sure he's completely objective (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28417665)

Huh, a businessman in an article (Indian outsourcing) bashing his competitors (USA techies). Nope, no way he's biased or trying to pitch his company, nosiree, completely objective...

Next up, comments by Steve Ballmer on why Windows is better than MacOS and the Ford Family will join us to discuss their views on the best automobiles.

People are the same (1)

moankey (142715) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417703)

I work for a large medical company that has a call center in the US headquarters and have also been outsourcing their call center to India and Phillipines. From what I can tell from my observations, by the way I am not directly involved in the call center so my comments are not quantifiable, people anywhere eventually tire of working for shit jobs.

Perhaps people outside the US can last longer than their American counterparts, but over the course of time they eventually develop the same traits that cause them to be terminated as well. Bad attitude, lack of interest, insubordination, lack of job performance. A crap job is just that, if you are hungry then you may accept it, but once your basic needs are met you will realize you no longer wish to be in a crap job. Americans have their basic needs met more easily, than the countries mentioned so they tolerate a bad job in a less amount of time than people that have not eaten or had a decent place to live for many years of their life.

Complacency is human trait not just Americans.

Contradiction from the Right (4, Interesting)

Tablizer (95088) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417707)

The biz lobbyists first claimed that not enough US citizens were going into the field. Now it's that we are "too lazy for the details", not quantity? Which is it? Outsourcing and H1B's were never sold as a way to replace "C" Americans with "A" 3rd-worlders. Did they lie to Congress and voters?

I find most Indians incompetent (5, Interesting)

ishobo (160209) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417721)

Supposedly, the Indians coming to the States are the smartest. I find them to be no better than American educated and trained workers. IIT is not a breeding ground for great talent, rather superior attitudes. No different than the Ivy League in the United States. I have worked with plenty of Indian talent in Silicon Valley, and managed many as well. It depends on the person; where you go to school, or if you go to school, is irrelevant.

The Chinese and Europeans are the folks I move to the top of the interview list.

Equality (1)

SirWraith (796337) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417723)

Having traded in a Tech major for Music major, it's good to see that I haven't lost anything in potential employability.

Re:Equality (1)

ishobo (160209) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417783)

Best system admin I managed had a BA in political science, while the best QA manager had a BA in art history.

recently laid off from a job with an Indian co. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28417725)

Worked in a call center in the US run by an Indian company for over a year fairly recently. Talked with counterparts in India. The difference is really obvious- Indians kiss the bosses ass way, way, _way_ better than Americans. They didn't necessarily know what the hell they were talking about, technically, but they could sure fake it well enough to satisfy the boss. Hard to blame them, really. Obviously they all know that there are about a billion people waiting in line to take their job if they say the wrong thing to the boss.

'walking the extra mile' (2, Funny)

jsse (254124) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417729)

of bugs and loopholes?

That explains everything...

The funniest thing (1)

mehtars (655511) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417731)

The funniest thing is, in my CS classes apx 30% were from India and 30% from rest of Asia. The remainder were mostly white Americans.

These ratios were pretty much consistent throughout pretty much the entire engineering school.

How Bill Gates got to be a philanthropist. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28417751)

So anything over $.20 per hr is overpriced? Now you get an idea of the source of MS's QC on Windows is coming from and how much it is worth. So its buggy, the price is right.

Ownership (2, Insightful)

LKM (227954) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417769)

I think the gist of it is that a lot of "western" software engineers don't want to work as "code monkeys"; programmers just doing their job without any sense of ownership of the project. I don't want to disparage people doing that job, but great software requires that programmers have a sense of ownership of the project and their code. I don't think the "top down" style of software engineering - where you have a few project leaders and an army of willing coders - is going to yield the same product quality as a smaller team of programmers who own part of their project and may not be as easy to guide.

You get what you pay for... (2, Interesting)

Golbez81 (1582163) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417795)

I've worked from tier 3 to tier 1 networks, from dial up support to networking to information security, and I've dealt with India since the mid to late 90s, and I must say this Indian CEO couldn't be more right! What you have to do is take it with a grain of salt and look at it from the other perspective. Sure Indian IT workers are cheap and they are awesome at mastering the BORING aspects of IT. You know why? Because they RUN from ADVANCED IT problems like the PLAGUE! Usually those are advanced up to the upper tech echelons of IT companies to deal with (Usually based either out of the US or Europe). You know why this happens? The US and Europe have a good 2 to 3 generations of technology embedded into our society that India never will have. I've never seen a truly passionate Indian IT worker that learns IT because its what he calls fun. They do it for the money or to support their family or just out of necessity. That unfortunately is never going to drive them to be as skilled as a passionate worker who enjoys what he is doing and got into IT specifically for that reason. The same can be said about US IT workers, but generally speaking, that is what drives the reason of why US workers are more expensive than Indian workers. I don't really see the developed "Nerd" culture in India that the US or Europe has (And created since basically like the 40s...). What the Indian CEO is saying is a dual edged sword. They do have the cheap workforce, but they do not have the generations of knowledge and experience embedded in their society that US and European workers have. It all comes down to the age old saying, you get what you pay for. =]

Name an "Indian" project that went well (3, Insightful)

SpaghettiPattern (609814) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417823)

"master the 'boring' details of tech process and methodology"


I myself have worked for large outfits and many in my family work for large outfits. My experience and that of my loved ones is that working with Indian companies is a guarantee for disaster. Recently my sister witnessed a $50 million project being trashed. The problem is that Indian IT companies usually limit themselves to implementing exactly what you specify. Or, if you ask for an analysis, they let a bloated system emerge. Unless you work for a CMMI level 4 company this attitude is next to useless.
People that master "tech process and methodology" wind up being slaves to "quality". Quality as in "meticulously following the procedures." As more than 90% of businesses don't really have quality in place -or at best, have some quality shroud- this means that de facto they are slaves to the next management level. Very convenient once you are the manager.
The problem is that higher management and share holders don't understand that this is common practice. They only see that Indians cost 10 times less than European/US people. If you need 20 times more people to do the work, cost double. The bureaucracy of 20 times more people cripples your organization.
Man, I've seen a team of 10-15 people writing 'make' files for package generation. And particularly crappy 'make' files at that. Had to wait hours to have them running a 'make pkg' command and returning me the generated package. For Christ's sake! This is something you think about and implement on a rainy afternoon and which takes 1 minute to run each time afterwards.

Sure they are unemployable (2, Insightful)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 5 years ago | (#28417831)

At least at the rates you'd pay to someone in India. Ya know, it's kinda hard to survive on 500 bucks a month here...

Process (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28417841)

Indians claim knowledge of the Process to get the contracts. We'll be "cheaper and better" they say.

There is a hot new software development methodology making waves in India. It's called "copy and paste" programming.

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