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Palm Pre iTunes Syncing Back With WebOS 1.1 Update

kdawson posted more than 5 years ago | from the cheeky-that dept.

Handhelds 396

suraj.sun points out CNet coverage of Palm's newest OS release, which restores the ability to synch with iTunes that iTunes 8.2.1 had broken. "The news was posted on Palm's blog where it listed the new features and enhancements of the software update and nonchalantly added at the end: 'Oh, and one more thing: Palm WebOS 1.1 re-enables Palm media sync. That's right — you once again can have seamless access to your music, photos and videos from the current version of iTunes (8.2.1).' Bold move, Palm. Bold move. It'll be interesting to see how Apple responds, and do you suppose the use of the phrase 'one more thing,' a phrase that Apple CEO Steve Jobs often uses to introduce a new product at the end of his keynotes, was intentional or am I just reading too much into this?"

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Intentional (4, Insightful)

jDeepbeep (913892) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810259)

and do you suppose the use of the phrase 'one more thing,' a phrase that Apple CEO Steve Jobs often uses to introduce a new product at the end of his keynotes, was intentional or am I just reading too much into this?"

Intentional.

Re:Intentional (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28810279)

Agreed

PICK YOUR NOSE AND EAT IT (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28810303)

its so tasty

Re:PICK YOUR NOSE AND EAT IT (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28810851)

No, let's just continue picking yours.....now where did I leave that pick-axe?

Re:PICK YOUR NOSE AND EAT IT (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28810865)

Not everyone has a detachable nose, you silly AC.

cat and mouse (4, Insightful)

goombah99 (560566) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810329)

Why as a consumer would I be so dumb as to buy a palm if my itunes only worked intermittently or had no assured path forward. Sure one could perhaps use the old version of itunes while I waited for palm to fix it. But really that's not a strategy. I'm in that boat right now with my jailbroken iphone and did I not sort of enjoy the novelty of this cat and mouse game it would be a detraction not an attraction. I can't imagine most people want a phone that might not work some of the time. who needs to waste time like that?

Re:cat and mouse (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28810429)

Why as a consumer would I be so dumb as to buy a palm if my itunes only worked intermittently or had no assured path forward. Sure one could perhaps use the old version of itunes while I waited for palm to fix it. But really that's not a strategy. I'm in that boat right now with my jailbroken iphone and did I not sort of enjoy the novelty of this cat and mouse game it would be a detraction not an attraction. I can't imagine most people want a phone that might not work some of the time. who needs to waste time like that?

I know this sounds crazy, but most of the time I use my phone as a communication device.

Re:cat and mouse (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28810433)

Why as a consumer would I be so dumb to buy music from itunes when I prefer palm over the iphone?

Re:cat and mouse (3, Insightful)

DurendalMac (736637) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810633)

Um, maybe you already had? And if Palm would grow a few braincells then they would write their own damn software that would read the XML file in the iTunes library and sync data without needing to run iTunes and pretend it's an iPod. Current iTunes tracks are just AAC files that will play on the Pre no matter what you use to sync it.

Re:cat and mouse (4, Interesting)

ground.zero.612 (1563557) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810771)

And if Palm would grow a few braincells then they would write their own damn software

Do you have any examples of a large and successful company wasting resources on development, by developing an exact clone of another company's product, rather than spending practically nothing to write a simple work-around?

I'd actually be curious to hear of some, because I would like to ridicule them for being so stupid.

Does it matter where the XML file is read? (4, Interesting)

thule (9041) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810805)

"d if Palm would grow a few braincells then they would write their own damn software that would read the XML file in the iTunes library"

This what the Pre already does. It is just that Palm decided to let iTunes copy the files over to the device first, instead of reading directly out of iTunes. Why should Apple care were the XML file is read? From a technical perspective it is basically the same. It saves the user from installing additional software. The is one of the nice things about the Pre, no need for any additional desktop software.

Re:cat and mouse (1)

Igorod (807462) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810447)

Because people don't want the iPhone for some reason, but want to use Itunes with their smartphone. Honestly Palm should develop their own media application for ease of use. Itunes is not that great a program, and keeps getting slower. I'd rather not use Itunes but it's the easiest thing for managing my Ipod and I'm lazy. I don't use Itunes for any other equipment I own and am quite happy for it. And technically, if you agree to a ToS where you agree not to use non-Apple approved products with Itunes, you're kinda SOL on getting anything done about it. Same as jailbreaking your iPhone....it's a pain in the ass, but that's your fault and problem for going outside of normal operation as deemed by the maker.

Re:cat and mouse (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28810463)

Hmmm. I could be wrong, but unlike Apple products, the Palm Pre will indeed still work even if it can't hook up with iTunes. A truly novel and ground-breaking idea if you ask me.

Re:cat and mouse (3, Insightful)

G Money (12364) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810521)

Why as a consumer would I be so dumb as to buy anything Apple if they're only goal is to extract as much money from me as possible by forcing me to use only their products? If a company like Apple wants to specifically break compatibility with their products for third parties then I would choose not to use their products. Why is it that people jump on Microsoft when they trap consumers but applaud Apple for the same behavior? I'm not saying Apple doesn't make good products (I think they do), but the price of it is vendor lock-in the likes of which Microsoft can only dream about.

Re:cat and mouse (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28810643)

Last I checked, iTunes is free and nobody's forcing you to use it... There are a number of products you can use to sync your iPod/iPhone, and should you choose to use any other mp3 player or phone, I'm sure Apple would be happy to let its software run on OS X.

Why can't Palm write their own media manager? They're not a white knight trying to "free the masses" here, they're just being cheap.

Re:cat and mouse (4, Insightful)

DurendalMac (736637) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810719)

1. You can use your iPod with other software.
2. With the exception of older DRM'ed tracks, you can put your music from iTunes on any device with any other software that supports said device and the proper file formats.
3. Palm is taking the lazyass way out and piggybacking on iTunes when anyone with three braincells could see this leapfrog coming a mile away. Yes, Apple is being dickish about this, but Palm damn well knew this would happen and they have a lot more to lose from pissed off customers than Apple does. The iTunes library is just an XML file. It would be trivial for Palm to make an app that reads said file and syncs without the need for iTunes to be running.

Apple may not have a choice (4, Insightful)

goombah99 (560566) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810827)

When tunes are stored on an ipod they are stored in a way that creates a speedbump to just trasnfering them off. basically the names are munged. Maybe they mess with the id3 tags--don't know. But apple has long been a proponent of speedbump DRM, that is drm that gets in your way enough that most users won't hassle with defeating it.

The real trick that apple accomplished was convincing the music companies that this was sufficient protection.

IN return apple probably has to make a reasonable effort to prevent cases where pod-to-pod transfers all proliferation of music. this would include nominal efforts to never have a legitimate channel for this.

they won't care if it's not perfect. But they probably are obligated to try.

Re:cat and mouse (1)

ground.zero.612 (1563557) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810717)

Well, as a person who has worked retail, the easy answer is because you, as a consumer, are dumb. You as a person might even be dumb, but if I'm in the business of retail sales, I'd be more concerned with you being a dumb consumer.

The smartass answer would be: it's a phone first and foremost, and both it and the iPhone are a "trying-to-be-everything-that-a-web-enabled-PC-is" second and last.

Re:cat and mouse (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28810833)

I disagree, the iPhone is first and foremost an iPod and only an after thought of a phone.

Re:cat and mouse (0, Flamebait)

amicusNYCL (1538833) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810721)

Why as a consumer would I be so dumb as to buy a palm if my itunes only worked intermittently or had no assured path forward.

Well you're already dumb enough to use iTunes in the first place, so why not?

Re:cat and mouse (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28810749)

Why as a customer would you be so dumb as to call yourself a "consumer"? When you're the boss do you call yourself a slave? I know this sounds really crazy when but it helps a lot if you actually know the meaning of the words you are using ...

Re:cat and mouse (4, Informative)

jonnythan (79727) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810769)

My Pre has worked continuously.

I just didn't update to iTunes 8.2.1. And besides, there are other ways to sync the Pre besides iTunes. It syncs the way all other non-Apple phones sync. It just throws in iTunes syncing as an extra bonus, which is nice.

Re:cat and mouse (1)

sbeckstead (555647) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810775)

I think the Palm already doesn't work some of the time. I believe you have to have one form of connection or another to be able to use any apps on it. No bars, no wifi you have a hunk of plastic and metal with pretty lights and nothing more.
Maybe music playback works it did on my RAZR. But I doubt any apps will run. At least with the iPhone if I can't connect I can do more than play music. Anybody care to enlighten us further? I really am curious.

Re:Intentional (2, Insightful)

The_Duck271 (1494641) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810729)

Intentional.

How the hell is this "insightful"?!

Seems Palm is coming thru with the Pre (0)

davidsyes (765062) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810261)

and telling Apple, "You may BE the apple in many people's eye but WE will have your iTunes in the PALM of our hand... TALK to da HAND...be we will PALM slap you, byatch..."

Re:Seems Palm is coming thru with the Pre (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28810651)

Its the "Instant Messaging" war all over again. This time Apple will lose, like AOL did. Because you can be that others will join the fray, on Palm's side, to ensure device interoperabiliity.

Lost battle (0)

Just Some Guy (3352) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810283)

Queue iTunes 8.2.2 in about 3 days. Seriously, does Palm really think they can win this? On the other hand, I respect that they're not rolling over and dying, as they did when they replaced Graffiti with Jot and wrecked handwriting recognition for their long-time users.

Re:Lost battle (4, Insightful)

Darkness404 (1287218) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810307)

Theres only so much though that Apple can do short of killing compatibility with older iPods. Eventually Apple will just have to give up.

Re:Lost battle (1)

Cyberllama (113628) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810359)

Very true, though one expects software updates at a more frequent pace than firmware updates so one would expect that until one side or the other throws in the towel, it'll probably work less often rather than more often -- unless people who want this feature just don't update iTunes.

Re:Lost battle (1)

Just Some Guy (3352) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810393)

Theres only so much though that Apple can do short of killing compatibility with older iPods.

Do you know this for a fact? If the security is tight and Palm is only squeaking through by finding the equivalent of buffer overflows or undocumented functions, I think Apple could very well win this one.

Not that I'm necessarily taking Apple's side here. It's just that Palm seems to have stumbled upon a particularly stupid and capricious business plan that counts on Apple falling asleep on the job. This back-and-forth only has to happen a few times before potential buyers will get scared away.

Re:Lost battle (1)

Darkness404 (1287218) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810441)

But there isn't anything "magic" that is on iPods that is just a string. Basically, what the Pre could do is just call itself an iPod classic and it would be the exact same as with the iPod classic. They rely simply on strings, both the iPod and the Pre.

Re:Lost battle (1)

RobKow (1787) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810445)

Yeah, Palm just has to make the Pre look like an iPod to iTunes. Eventually Apple may run out of things to use to differentiate the Pre from a "real" iPod without breaking real iPods.

Re:Lost battle (1)

Facegarden (967477) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810467)

Theres only so much though that Apple can do short of killing compatibility with older iPods.

Do you know this for a fact? If the security is tight and Palm is only squeaking through by finding the equivalent of buffer overflows or undocumented functions, I think Apple could very well win this one.

Not that I'm necessarily taking Apple's side here. It's just that Palm seems to have stumbled upon a particularly stupid and capricious business plan that counts on Apple falling asleep on the job. This back-and-forth only has to happen a few times before potential buyers will get scared away.

Apple hasn't been able to protect its own iPhone from jailbreakers, what makes you think they can secure iTunes any better?

And on a more direct note, if palm needs to they could probably go so far as to completely emulate an old iPod - they do have the guy who made them working for them now - though that may be illegal, or at least lawsuit bait. Not that Palm seems worried.

More than anything I just love that this whole scenario is happening - someone is finally challenging Apple on their own turf! I'm all for open hardware an apple has always been against it, so it's nice to see a big player finally get messy with this. :)
-Taylor

Re:Lost battle (3, Informative)

MozeeToby (1163751) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810657)

I don't think you understand what it is that Palm is doing here, if they were doing what you described (cracking the security of iTunes) that would be at best questionable, I for one would be completely against that kind of behavior. All that Palm is doing is changing the Vendor ID on their phone to the Vendor ID used by iPods. Basically, iTunes says "Hey, who are you?" and the Pre says "I am definately, definately, an iPod".

Unless Apple adds a new requirement to sync, there's little they can do to detect if the iPod is actually a Pre, and if they add a new requirement they'll be breaking backward compatibility with all the iPods out there that don't have the requirement implemented.

Re:Lost battle (5, Informative)

aftk2 (556992) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810831)

Well, actually, they're telling them that the Pre is a device made by Apple:

http://www.precentral.net/how-palm-re-enabled-itunes-sync [precentral.net]

That's a bit shady, and for a group so concerned with open standards like USB, I would imagine more Slashdotters would find that practice questionable.

Re:Lost battle (1)

goombah99 (560566) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810465)

Theres only so much though that Apple can do short of killing compatibility with older iPods. Eventually Apple will just have to give up.

Well yes and no. first it means that the functionality palm can offer may not always be able to exceed that of the old iphones. Suppose for example while simple tunes transfer may be possibel by emulating the old ipod, suppose that new digital ipods or ones with camera would be more recognizable by itunes and so itunes would refuse to transfer over video or voice memos from an old ipod which is not supposed to have those capabilities. SO you can only get so far pretending to be an old ipod.

second, if this is to become a game then apple could turn the tables. Have itunes interrogate the other features the palm exposes. that is, when a palm plugs in it has to do more than just look like an old ipod. it has to also have some sort of palm specific conduit for address books and other phone features. apple could have itunes hunt for those to determine the phone is a pseudoPod.

That of course ratchets things up a notch, so apple may not want to drop that bomb for a long time. But it's hard to see how palm could escape that without being in the same boat-- breaking compatibility for older pre's

Re:Lost battle (1)

clone53421 (1310749) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810547)

if this is to become a game then apple could turn the tables. Have itunes interrogate the other features the palm exposes

I smell an "iTunes compatibility mode"... all Palm-specific features disabled so iTunes still can't tell the difference. ;)

Re:Lost battle (1)

goombah99 (560566) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810683)

if this is to become a game then apple could turn the tables. Have itunes interrogate the other features the palm exposes

I smell an "iTunes compatibility mode"... all Palm-specific features disabled so iTunes still can't tell the difference. ;)

Okay then let's say itunes just waits for the one time you plug it in before turning on compatibility mode. itunes then pushes over 1000 songs that are fingerprinted in a special way. Maybe they are all car alarms and babies crying. or just diminished audio quality. or maybe nothing youo can tell at all. But then the next time you try to update even in compatibility mode, itunes recognizes the fingerprint and intentionally malfunctions. it will be enought to drive you batty if the malfunction is cleverly chosen (e.g. transfers over songs with buzzing sounds in the background so you think your speaker is busted).

Re:Lost battle (1)

thule (9041) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810889)

This is slashdot.org! The people here love these kinds of hacks. They love giving a finger to the 800 pound gorilla in the market. Palm did one of the most simple things to do, they changed their USB ID. Can they help it if iTunes just goes ahead and copies all the files over to their device?

Re:Lost battle (1)

greatica (1586137) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810679)

Yep! Reminds me a lot of the early days of universal instant messengers like Trillian that logged into ICQ, MSN, etc. Protocols kept-a-changin', upgrades kept-a-happenin', and now it's all moot.

You said it perfectly though. This will be a much shorter war. Basic users could upgrade ICQ at the the drop of a hat. Upgrading iPod firmware to keep up with the war? Heh.

Re:Lost battle (2, Insightful)

DurendalMac (736637) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810781)

Simple: Apple makes iTunes scan not only for the iPod saying it's an iPod, but also for a valid serial number and other attributes. If Palm tries mucking around with serial numbers then Apple may well be able to buttfuck them with a lawsuit.

Palm is just being stupid. They have a lot more to lose from pissed off customers than Apple does. Palm, just make your own goddamned sync app like you should have in the first place. Yes, Apple is being a bunch of asses, but who didn't see that coming from a mile away, especially at Palm? If they want to use people's iTunes libraries, just make the sync app read the iTunes library XML file. Bloody simple.

Re:Lost battle (1)

Rockoon (1252108) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810351)

I think they can.

Remember that updates to itunes annoys people.

Re:Lost battle (1)

Just Some Guy (3352) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810471)

Remember that updates to itunes annoys people.

BS. Apple could label it "PREVENTS HACKERS!" and people would flock to the upgrade. I find your lack of faith in the reality distortion field to be disturbing.

Re:Lost battle (1)

Rockoon (1252108) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810733)

That wont work for the people trying to interop their Pre with iTunes. They are a witness to the shenanigans.

Apple would actualy have to introduce honest-to-goodness new desirable features to get these people to consider moving forward, and what new desirable feature would be easier to implment than Pre support?

I don't think Apple can win this. I think what they are mostly afraid of is not the interop with iTunes.. its being forced to maintain that interop later on, when people come to expect it.

Re:Lost battle (1)

amicusNYCL (1538833) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810799)

BS. Apple could label it "PREVENTS HACKERS!" and people would flock to the upgrade.

..even the "hackers"? I think that if you're using a Pre, you're not into the whole reality distortion thing in the first place.

Re:Lost battle (1)

leonbev (111395) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810371)

Sure, Apple could release iTunes 8.2.2 a week from now, but who's going to update to it? Most people don't bother to update their software when patches are released semi-monthly, let alone weekly.

Re:Lost battle (1)

Facegarden (967477) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810527)

Sure, Apple could release iTunes 8.2.2 a week from now, but who's going to update to it? Most people don't bother to update their software when patches are released semi-monthly, let alone weekly.

Yeah, especially if you own a Pre! There is really no harm in keeping a slightly older version of itunes, they never start locking you out of anything till you're a few releases back. And although most techy Pre owners probably waited to upgrade itunes the last time anyway, and are therefore unharmed, this release will have even the non-techy owners waiting to update, after having been bitten the first time. I would bet that most people apple screwed with the last update aren't going to do it again, so Palm has effectively saved many of their customers, by giving them one chance to learn.

Hell, palm may even have known exactly how apple was going to do this, just to see how it would play out, so they would have at least one guaranteed fix of the situation.

-Taylor

Re:Lost battle (1)

Aladrin (926209) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810539)

Since it will be downloaded, it might indeed get queued by many people... However, I'm pretty sure you mean 'cue'.

Re:Lost battle (1)

dc29A (636871) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810671)

Queue iTunes 8.2.2 in about 3 days. Seriously, does Palm really think they can win this? On the other hand, I respect that they're not rolling over and dying, as they did when they replaced Graffiti with Jot and wrecked handwriting recognition for their long-time users.

Why in the name of Cthulhu would anyone use iTunes to update a non iPod. Hell, with tools like SharePod you don't even need to use iTunes. Seriously, why? iTunes is the single most bloated piece of canine feces that exists ... and they dare to call it software. Can't Palm write a plugin for MediaMonkey or some other media player and just use that?

Using iTunes is a similar experience to that of eating one's own teeth.

Re:Lost battle (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28810795)

Yea, sharepod works great the iphone and ipod touch......

But... for how long? (3, Insightful)

popo (107611) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810291)

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Go palm! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28810313)

Apple's self-satisfied smug factor is too high and they need to be taken down a notch for their own good.

Couldn't get a Pre (0, Offtopic)

Gizzmonic (412910) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810321)

I guess the Pre is selling pretty well, I couldn't get one at the Sprint store the other day. I prefer the "touchscreen & hard buttons" approach of the Pre and Treo as opposed to the 100% touchscreen approach of the iPhone or the 100% buttons approach of the Blackberry. I think the Pre is probably the best out of the lot, but that ain't sayin' much. Wish I didn't have to carry a cell phone at all.

More interesting quote from Palm (5, Informative)

quantumplacet (1195335) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810335)

well, if anyone RTFA, there's an even more interesting quote from Palm:

Palm believes that openness and interoperability offer better experiences for users by allowing them the freedom to use the content they own without interference across devices and services, so on behalf of consumers, we have notified the USB Implementers Forum of what we believe is improper use of the Vendor ID number by another member.

Looks like Palm really is ready to turn this into a war.

Re:More interesting quote from Palm (1, Interesting)

0100010001010011 (652467) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810493)

Then palm should have written their own Sync Program. I don't think Apple would have had a problem if they used the iTunes library XML files or just the iTunes media files themselves. What Palm is doing is lying to iTunes to get the Pre synced as an iPod.

Apple did all the engineering, R&D, and human interface work for iTunes. (Ok, other than what they bought in the beginning). Now Pre is trying to piggy back on this.

Palm, if you want to sync DRM free Media to the Pre, write your own application.

Re:More interesting quote from Palm (3, Informative)

blincoln (592401) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810615)

Apple did all the engineering, R&D, and human interface work for iTunes. (Ok, other than what they bought in the beginning). Now Pre is trying to piggy back on this.

Interoperability with competitors' hardware is generally protected, at least in the US. See Coleco and other companies producing Atari 2600-compatible hardware, various companies producing unlicensed software for the NES, Sega Genesis, PS2, etc that had to use similar trickery to what Palm is doing.

Re:More interesting quote from Palm (2)

Roogna (9643) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810689)

Indeed, in fact, from my understanding of things (IANAL) the DMCA specifically includes exemptions for interoperability purposes..

Re:More interesting quote from Palm (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28810713)

Apple did all the engineering, R&D, and human interface work for iTunes. (Ok, other than what they bought in the beginning).

Other than what they bought in the beginning? You never used SoundJam MP, did you? It was a great program, but it in no way resembled iTunes. Apple only used the engine from it.

Re:More interesting quote from Palm (1)

SBrach (1073190) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810741)

So it is OK for Apple to lock-in customers to iPods because they downloaded their music collection from the iTunes store. Your take on corporations leveraging monopolies is interesting. Before I get flamed for calling the itunes music store a monopoly, they have over 70% worldwide market share and exclusive deals with many record labels and artists. If you want to download all your music from the internet legally you are forced to use iTunes.

Re:More interesting quote from Palm (1)

0100010001010011 (652467) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810803)

You're forced to DOWNLOAD it through iTunes. Nothing is forcing you to USE it through iTunes.
The files are sitting there on the hard drive plain as day. Now that they have no DRM on them you can do what ever you want.

Re:More interesting quote from Palm (1, Flamebait)

Duradin (1261418) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810893)

Open iTunes. Make sure you have your main library open. Create a new folder on your desktop. Open that new folder. Go back into iTunes and hit [cmd|ctrl]-A and then [cmd|ctrl]-C. Go to the new folder that you opened. Hit [cmd|ctrl]-V. When it is done copying you can have whatever program or device you want manage your music for you. (iTunes lock in is sooooooooooooo harsh!)

What the pre is doing is making use of iTunes' management capabilities so that that palm didn't have to much about with coming up with their own playlist and management app.

Screw that, it's MY computer (2, Insightful)

spun (1352) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810811)

I'll use it however I like. If I want to use iTunes with a home built Internet Rice Cooker/MP3 Player, I will. Boo fucking hoo for Apple, where do they get off trying to tell me what I will and will not do with my computer, software, and other hardware? You masochistic, submissive Apple fanboys may get off on being dominated by your Apple-daddy but the rest of us don't swing that way.

Re:More interesting quote from Palm (1)

commodoresloat (172735) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810899)

goddamnit. replying to remove my mod of "offtopic," which was a mistake. I was trying to click "interesting." Now somebody mod me funny.

Right idea, wrong mechanism (3, Informative)

ThrowAwaySociety (1351793) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810809)

Palm could easily inter-operate with iTunes without pretending to be an iPod and abusing Apple's vendor ID. All it has to do is create its own synchronization driver.

"But wait!" the Apple-haters say. "Apple is an evil, anti-competitive wannabe-monopoly! There's no way it would allow such a thing! No way would Apple allow its precious iTunes on other devices! It wants to extend its iTunes dominance to the iPhone by locking out all competitors!"

I give you:
http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/productivity_tools/themissingsyncforpalmpre.html [apple.com]

(Also for BlackBerry. [apple.com] )

All Palm has to do is build (or license) its own connector, and Apple would let it be. Maybe it would even promote the software on Apple's own website.

Oppenheimer Would Be Proud (1)

hardwarejunkie9 (878942) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810363)

Is it just me, or does this have the sound of an escalating digital cold war? Palm updates, Apple Updates, Palm Updates, Apple updates. Palm Pre gets a reputation of compatibility with Itunes for the hardcore fans, just as long as they choose to sync on even weeks when Apple's busy writing patches for the new backdoors.

Re:Oppenheimer Would Be Proud (1)

ShadowRangerRIT (1301549) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810647)

It sounds like Apple is learning from the urban legend [proudlyserving.com] version of Microsoft. Except they're doing it for real.

Huh. (2, Insightful)

WarlockD (623872) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810369)

I just updated my Pre too. Scares me though. While Apple is selling DRM free music, dost it really stop them from their software only syncing up to properly signed iPods? I mean I like my iPod, but if its going to be a device that needs a secure encrypted channel to transfer file for me to just use normally, I am not sure I would want to use an iPod again.

Another low move by Microsoft (0, Flamebait)

jayme0227 (1558821) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810541)

Don't you just hate how Microsoft always tries to manipulate the system to give an unfair advantage to one of their products based on the popularity of another? I can't believe they're at it again. I thought they'd stop after the whole IE/Windows debacle that they have gone through, and to a certain extent are still going through.

Oh wait.

Re:Another low move by Microsoft (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28810743)

Don't you just hate how large companies always try to manipulate the system to give an unfair advantage to one of their products based on the popularity of another? I can't believe they're at it again.

ftfy

Re:Huh. (2, Interesting)

Facegarden (967477) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810553)

I just updated my Pre too. Scares me though. While Apple is selling DRM free music, dost it really stop them from their software only syncing up to properly signed iPods? I mean I like my iPod, but if its going to be a device that needs a secure encrypted channel to transfer file for me to just use normally, I am not sure I would want to use an iPod again.

DVD Jon started some software that is like iTunes, but open, and made for any device. It looks pretty cool, though I haven't tried it yet.
it's called DoubleTwist, look it up.
-Taylor

Re:Huh. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28810661)

I think this only applies to the sync feature. Not the transfering of the files manually.

Typical Apple strategy (1)

tgibbs (83782) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810373)

I doubt if Apple expects to be able to keep Palm out on a long-term basis. Apple's strategy of protection seems to be not so much to try to create an impregnable barrier, but rather to introduce inconveniences for those who use their products in an "unapproved" way. So if you get a Palm Pre, you'll have to check the web before you update your iTunes to make sure that Apple hasn't disabled Pre sync, and then wait for Palm to get around to fixing it.

USB Vendor ID (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28810385)

According to http://www.precentral.net/how-palm-re-enabled-itunes-sync [precentral.net] , Palm now uses Apple's USB vendor ID. Which is kind of not allowed...

Unauthorized use of assigned or unassigned USB Vendor ID Numbers and associated Product ID Numbers are strictly prohibited.

And because the world doesn't always make sense, Palm filed a complaint with the USB Implementors Forum, stating Apple is abusing the vendor ID (according to http://digitaldaily.allthingsd.com/20090723/you-can-almost-hear-the-shrieks-of-outrage-in-cupertino-cant-you/ [allthingsd.com] ).

Re:USB Vendor ID (2, Insightful)

clone53421 (1310749) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810505)

Interesting. What sort of teeth does the USB IF have?

I mean, the complaint is obviously going to fail, as I see it. If Apple wants to use their vendor ID to identify their own USB products so that iTunes doesn't work with anything else, that's within their right. Even if Palm thinks it's a dick move by Apple, I can't see anything actually prohibiting them from doing it.

Re:USB Vendor ID (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28810843)

If Microsoft wants to use their operating system to indentify their own browser so that Windows dosen't work with anythning else. Then that's within their right. Even if Mozilla thinks it's a dick move my Microsoft, I can't see anything actually prohibiting them from doing it. Please just because you like Apple (as they can do no wrong apparently) it doesn't mean they can do whatever they want.

Re:USB Vendor ID (3, Informative)

clone53421 (1310749) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810925)

First off, I don't like Apple. They sell high-priced fancy style-over-substance gadgets, IMHO. Now that we've got that taken care of...

I didn't see anything on the form stating that you can't use your vendor ID to identify your products, while it did say that using unauthorized vendor IDs is forbidden.

Re:USB Vendor ID (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28810549)

The USB vendor ID was not intended to force users into lock-in at the software level. Apple is wrong to try to "close" and open standard.

Re:USB Vendor ID (1)

djcapelis (587616) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810761)

I think Palm's complaint to the USB IF isn't intended to get Apple to stop. I think Palm knows that the USB IF has no teeth. However, at the same time, they also want to put on record why they're breaking the guidelines by using Apple's USB vendor ID.

That way they put Apple in a position where it's harder for them to take the high ground because Palm's complaint is their way of going on record that Apple is violating the purpose and spirit of the USB spec.

Re:USB Vendor ID (2, Insightful)

shacky003 (1595307) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810895)

I wouldn't think it would be "not allowed" in this instance, if (as reported above) Palm is correct when telling on Apple for misuse of the USB vendor ID. This would then be a legal way of circumventing an illegal/not allowed block by Apple (in using the Vendor ID string as a vehicle to kill products from using its' software)
If this pisses off Apple enough, I could see them pushing an update for older iPods to change the way they are recognised by iTunes, maybe using a more complicated method that will only run on the OS that are on iPods.. If they start using a different method to verify an iPod is connected with something other than the Vendor ID (I think they will have to at some point, as if they don't, many more will follow Palms' example) then there could be an interesting war starting between Apple, and the masses.

This all of course assumes Apple doesn't go the lawyers route.. Something tells me there is an overly good chance of that happening, from their past tactics..

Disclaimer: I know nothing, about anything, ever.

TURDS (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28810425)

Turds are an important part of Steven E. Jobs's Breakfast every day! Rise and SHINE!

Watch out (2, Funny)

T Murphy (1054674) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810435)

Palm better watch out- Apple will be looking to get revenge by making the iPhone compatible with Palm's music store.

and so it begins (4, Interesting)

v1 (525388) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810457)

Now announcing iTunes Update Month!

Software update will have a new update for iTunes every 4-6 days, with an ever more entertaining list of "bugfixes and improvements", none of which will mention anything about palm.

I remember them doing this awhile back for a plugin for itunes that would add a second ipod to your list on the left, that you could drag and drop FROM. That spawned three iTunes updates in two weeks. People that diff'd the updates found basically all they were doing was adjusting their plugin acceptance code. Finally on the third update, they gave up on trying to filter it by behavior, and just plain banned the name of the plugin. It was at this point the author basically said ok I'm done, they're targeting me personally and that's not a war I'm going to win.

Re:and so it begins (4, Interesting)

fulldecent (598482) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810537)

Or... he could have open-sourced and became immortal

Apple's response: (1, Funny)

mu51c10rd (187182) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810503)

This means iWar!

Re:Apple's response: (2, Funny)

Zorlon (181163) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810797)

... to Palm's Pre emptive strike

Palm's reply: (1)

commodoresloat (172735) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810913)

Talk to the hand.

New Palm Fan (1)

neowolf (173735) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810543)

I haven't been a big fan of Palm for many years now, but I'm starting to become a fan again.

I think it is a combination of the battle with Apple, which I hope they are able to win, and I think the woman in their commercials is amazingly hot. :)

Apple should let them do it (1)

hamburgler007 (1420537) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810573)

But with the caveat of not having to deal with the possibility that an update to iTunes may break the compatibility with the Pre, no obligation to make previous version of their software available, and Palm telling their users such. I think it is pretty dumb on Palm's part that they would rely so heavily on a third party they have no control over.

This is some uber-clever marketing by Palm. (5, Insightful)

WelshRarebit (1595637) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810581)

By forcing Apple to issue updates specifically disable their device, Palm is capitalizing on the media hype maelstrom that is lavished on Apple, keeping the name "Pre" on the lips of people who would normally only ever talk about the iPhone. So when the media covers this "war", they are in effect establishing the idea of comparability between the products that would have been hard to get through had they just gone with traditional advertising and promotions. Between this and the new Microsoft ads, it is interesting to see Apple's competitors finally starting to ratchet up their competition with a brilliant marketing company.

Intentional? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28810589)

do you suppose the use of the phrase 'one more thing,'... was intentional

Yes. They're copying off Columbo.

Palm (0, Troll)

sbeckstead (555647) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810613)

I'm selling off my Palm stock. First Palm doesn't bother to do their own engineering and decides it's OK to be a parasite on other people's work. Then when those people fix it so that Palm isn't able to steal their work, Palm fixes it so that they masquerade and someone else's product. Then files a complaint that Apple is abusing the USB Vendor ID code to affect interoperability even though there are far better ways to do what they are doing even using iTunes to buy music. And then it turns out that they actually are violating the USB Vendor ID code themselves by not reporting themselves as the vendor of their own product. These guys are pathetic, they should just bite the bullet and license iTunes connectivity, like Apple did for Exchange.

Re:Palm (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28810759)

Yep, that's the sound of Palm shaking in their boots.

Re:Palm (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28810785)

I'm selling off my Palm stock

Im sorry, but everything you said after that, has zero importance.

Since you obviously didnt seem to have any problem with palms previous business practices, to such an extent that you bought the stock in the first place, why would anyone care about your laundry list of trivial complaints?

Re:Palm (1)

sbeckstead (555647) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810915)

Actually I did. But as they had already done it I thought that maybe when Apple finally slapped them they would let it go and bring out their own sync program. Sprint does have it's own music store. I really don't care how an anonymous coward feels about this anyway.

Re:Palm (1)

Shatrat (855151) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810907)

Plus your macbook probably only allows you to check stock prices on APPL anyway.

Relax (2, Insightful)

anonymousNR (1254032) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810789)

They are just phones and music players. Is it really that big an issue ?

Apple Joins Sony... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#28810841)

It's official - Apple has joined Sony on my list of companies to avoid. Sigh - they used to be sooo cool....

Terms and Conditions (1)

keyboarderror (1596427) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810849)

I'd think it would be in Apple's best interest to ignore this in the best way possible. Simply update the terms and conditions of iTunes to state: "Use of non-Apple devices with iTunes are not supported. Contact your hardware manufacturer." And let it go at that.

Apple can (and will) always claim the best experience is with Genuine Apple products. Licensing is key.

Things that are outside the scope of iTunes, such as exporting tracks from the device or other functionality, can be handled via the DMCA or other appropriate legal avenues, and are far easier to defend that a protracted unauthorized use vs. anticompetitive argument that would be expensive for all parties. Providing a licensing option would also make defending against other software applications that mimic iTunes compatibility much easier.

It's important to remember that with proper legal boilerplate, this acts as a secondary drive for iTunes sales, by making access to the library much easier for all parties. A process which is already possible with other media players albeit at more manual effort.

Apple has already scored a significant coup by getting it's proprietary hardware interface adopted by a wide variety of electronics manufacturers, from A/V equipment to auto makers. Licensing of this hardware standard to other devices might also be controlled and profited by Apple.

Essentially establishing iTunes as a de-facto standard for media devices. Embrace, extend, engulf.

iTunes is "compatible" with my Nintendo DSi (1)

Yvan256 (722131) | more than 5 years ago | (#28810919)

Select unprotected AAC tracks from iTunes, drop onto an SD card, insert SD card into Nintendo DSi.

Nope it doesn't sync automagically but drag'n drop does work from within iTunes.

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