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Linus Calls Microsoft Hatred "a Disease"

kdawson posted more than 4 years ago | from the open-means-open dept.

Microsoft 634

Hugh Pickens writes "In the aftermath of Microsoft's recent decision to contribute 20,000 lines of device driver code to the Linux community, Christopher Smart of Linux Magazine talked to Linus Torvalds and asked if the code was something he would be happy to include, even though it's from Microsoft. 'Oh, I'm a big believer in "technology over politics." I don't care who it comes from, as long as there are solid reasons for the code, and as long as we don't have to worry about licensing etc. issues,' says Torvalds. 'I may make jokes about Microsoft at times, but at the same time, I think the Microsoft hatred is a disease. I believe in open development, and that very much involves not just making the source open, but also not shutting other people and companies out.' Smart asked Torvalds if Microsoft was contributing the code to benefit the Linux community or Microsoft. 'I agree that it's driven by selfish reasons, but that's how all open source code gets written! We all "scratch our own itches." It's why I started Linux, it's why I started git, and it's why I am still involved. It's the reason for everybody to end up in open source, to some degree,' says Torvalds. 'So complaining about the fact that Microsoft picked a selfish area to work on is just silly. Of course they picked an area that helps them. That's the point of open source — the ability to make the code better for your particular needs, whoever the "your" in question happens to be.'"

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634 comments

free software and open source (3, Interesting)

salimma (115327) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821417)

That was a succint overview of the difference between open source and free software, though to be fair, even pragmatic free software supporters would find this new contribution by Microsoft as a positive thing.

Re:free software and open source (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28821463)

Not really. Free Software is pretty much entirely about what you're allowed to do with the code. As long as the new code from Microsoft allows the desired freedoms (and it does) there's nothing wrong with it from a Free Software perspective.

Re:free software and open source (1)

salimma (115327) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821657)

Free software advocates tend to be more likely to prefer the entire stack to be free, though. FSF's Richard Stallman, for instance, does not even consider Fedora to be free enough.

Re:free software and open source (2, Informative)

paxcoder (1222556) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821729)

Free software supporters are skeptic when it comes to code that's designed for the non-free environment (eg. run on Windows, must be compiled with non-free software etc.) - that's the case with me anyway. This driver, if I understood it correctly, has no other purpose but to enable a proprietary VM to work with the kernel (correct me if I'm wrong). If I'm right, I see no reason why it should ever be included in it.

Re:free software and open source (5, Insightful)

Macthorpe (960048) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821779)

This driver, if I understood it correctly, has no other purpose but to enable a proprietary VM to work with the kernel (correct me if I'm wrong). If I'm right, I see no reason why it should ever be included in it.

Because more choice is better than less. Isn't that the FOSS way?

Re:free software and open source (0, Troll)

paxcoder (1222556) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821797)

Actually, we don't consider non-free as a valid choice. That's why there is a GNU/Linux.

Re:free software and open source (4, Insightful)

Macthorpe (960048) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821805)

Oh, okay. I didn't realise it was "Freedom, but only on our terms". I thought it was just "Freedom".

My mistake.

Re:free software and open source (2, Insightful)

paxcoder (1222556) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821859)

You're confusing choice with freedom. We are primarily free-software supporters. The software the driver is written for is non-free by any FOSS supporter's standards (weather from free or open camp). There is no benefit regarding the user's freedom (as defined by 4 freedoms - use, copy, study, modify+redistribute) in including the above in the kernel.

Re:free software and open source (-1, Troll)

lgw (121541) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821787)

Because people like me will never use open soruce if it doesn't work and play well with the realities of earning a living. If you want an entirely isolated hippie utopia commune, hey, feel free, but you'll have no effect on the world of grown-ups. If you want open source to become normal and accepted in datacenters and desktops world-wide, then this Microsoft move is a good thing. A great thing, even.

All those poor souls with IT-dept mandated MS desktops that they're not allowed to change just moved one step closer to really running linux on that meaningless host. Good for them. Now cut your hair, take a bath, and get a job, you hippie!

Re:free software and open source (5, Insightful)

digitalunity (19107) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821715)

Most open source development is a symbiotic relationship between developers. Each developer builds upon others work to create an even better work, often to fill their own needs. Few developers can carry a large project alone, so in that way, each developer relies on each other developer to bring to fruition a complete software product.

Linus is right in that most OSS development is for selfish reasons, but the net effect is a benefit to the developer community as a whole because of license requirements to share. The result is that each selfish act is inherently beneficial for the community also.

I don't hate microsoft, but 20 years of watching their actions has led to great distrust. MS has fostered a industry-wide corporate culture that views OSS as broken, untrustable, risky, unsupportable, or otherwise inadequate. Microsoft contributions to OSS projects is rightfully viewed with distrust by many in the OSS community. Their modus operandi for 20 years has been embrace and extinguish, in all areas of their business.

Is it outlandish to think Microsoft makes contributions to OSS for subversion?

"Technology over politics"... (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28821421)

That's the sexiest thing to come from the Linux community in forever.

Re:"Technology over politics"... (1)

couchslug (175151) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821643)

"That's the sexiest thing to come from the Linux community in forever."

Which I why I will recite it, but certainly not buy into it. Without the "politics" of defending freedom, technology is reduced to a weapon against freedom.

Re:"Technology over politics"... (2, Insightful)

dov_0 (1438253) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821861)

"That's the sexiest thing to come from the Linux community in forever."

Which I why I will recite it, but certainly not buy into it. Without the "politics" of defending freedom, technology is reduced to a weapon against freedom.

Let's face it. Decent code is decent code. Even if it isn't the best code, if it's open sourced and useful enough, someone out there is going to improve on it. Everyone wins. Microsoft isn't all bad either and I actually quite like some of their products. Like, err, ummm. Well... Notepad. And maybe chkdsk. Man I wish they'd open source their NTFS tools from Win7... Leaves the NTFS tools currently available for Linux for dead!

Politics is there whenever 2 or more humans exist in the same airspace. That has always been and will be in the future. In this case however the politics is largely enclosed in the choice of license. Microsoft has chosen the right license for their product. They'll gain from it and others will no doubt gain from it as well. Hmmm. Net gain in freedom and choice for all. Sounds good to me!

In the end though, I think that there has to be proprietary software for open source and free software to survive. There also has to be open source and free software for proprietary software to thrive and be pushed to higher standards. Let people choose what they want and decide what their own needs are. With proprietary and OSS/FS growing up alongside each other we have the choice and freedom for that to happen.

Re:"Technology over politics"... (1)

Tsaot (859424) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821671)

That's the sexiest thing to come from the Linux community in forever.

Now I'm imagining Jason Howell reading this story in his hot breath voice.
Oh.. I'm a big believer... in Technology... over Politics...
...in the chatroom

Re:"Technology over politics"... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28821673)

More reasonable people have fallen victim to embrace, extend, extinguish.

Re:"Technology over politics"... (2, Informative)

Excelsior (164338) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821803)

That's the sexiest thing to come from the Linux community in forever.

In fairness, the [imknight.net] previous [dindinx.net] competition [wikipedia.org] wasn't [asciibabes.com] exactly [linuxjournal.com] intense [pcworld.co.nz] .

Re:"Technology over politics"... (1)

zukinux (1094199) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821819)

I'm one of the guys like you who actually makes fun of MS in every possible way, but I still believe in my heart that there's lots of code in their system which is written quite good. and I also think they've contributed much to today's world/technology.
I still use linux though, but [sarcasem ]"the enemy"[/sarcasem] is actually not that evil, I guess (without thinking about ie/or any other monopoly behavior).

a disease (1)

goosesensor (1431303) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821423)

that will someday kill all of us...

Re:a disease (3, Funny)

FooAtWFU (699187) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821633)

Microsoft-hating is a disease that you catch from doing business with Microsoft.

Re:a disease (1)

Elektroschock (659467) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821775)

Well, actually it is a matter of power relations. Microsoft is the dictator and you need checks and balances and cut the power down.

Re:a disease (2, Insightful)

dov_0 (1438253) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821881)

Microsoft-hating is a disease that you catch from working with Microsoft products.

There. Fixed that for you.

Re:a disease (1)

rolfwind (528248) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821917)

Microsoft-hating is a disease that you catch from doing business with Microsoft.

So you're saying it's an STD you catch after getting shafted by Microsoft a few times? Still, if it's an STD, it doesn't explain how it's so prevalent in the /. community:)

Re:a disease (1)

chdig (1050302) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821713)

I dunno... slashdot's been infected with it for years, and seems to be doing fine.

haha (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28821425)

inb4lynchinglinus

Good for him (5, Insightful)

AndrewBuck (1120597) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821429)

I'm no fan of microsoft either however I think Linus really does have the interests of the kernel and the greater linux community at heart. I agree with him that we need to be very careful to make sure there are no potential licensing issues involved here but as long as the lawyers give it a good look and make sure there are no hidden patent claims, etc. then I think there is no reason not to include the code in the kernel.

-Buck

Um, no (1, Insightful)

DoktorSeven (628331) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821443)

If hating a company that lies, cheats, and steals its way to the top is a "disease", then I don't want to be well.

Re:Um, no (5, Insightful)

The Archon V2.0 (782634) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821545)

If hating a company that lies, cheats, and steals its way to the top is a "disease", then I don't want to be well.

If you hate anything so much that you injure yourself or your cause in the process of avoiding it, then yes, you have a disease.

Re:Um, no (1)

clang_jangle (975789) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821661)

If hating a company that lies, cheats, and steals its way to the top is a "disease", then I don't want to be well.

If you hate anything so much that you injure yourself or your cause in the process of avoiding it, then yes, you have a disease.

Well technically, it's more of a dysfunction but in essence yes, I agree. Microsoft is an easy target; at times they appear to actually strive to be one. Nevertheless, geeks are supposed to be about tech, not religion. :)

Re:Um, no (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28821549)

Hey look, the Microsoft-controlled mods at work.

Anyone with any common sense knows MS is a liar and a cheat and uses FUD to spin their horrible technology.

MS is a marketing and sales company, not a technology company. Stop letting them sell you snake oil.

Re:Um, no (0, Troll)

countertrolling (1585477) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821631)

Microsoft "stole" nothing. Every thing they have was given to them voluntarily for something else in exchange. Not a shot was fired. If you have a complaint, take it up with the people who make it difficult to use an alternative... like your bank possibly, or the tax man. Microsoft has done nothing out of the ordinary in this market economy. Don't be playing the victim.

Re:Um, no (0, Troll)

gavron (1300111) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821647)

Microsoft stole DEC's VMS internals and used it to write NT. That's why they paid them millions in settlement. (www.google.com)

You want more? Just ask.

> Microsoft "stole" nothing.

Yeah, they did.

E

Re:Um, no (2, Interesting)

countertrolling (1585477) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821781)

So copyright infringement is theft? Or did they steal their only physical copy from the lab, denying DEC from using their own software?

Re:Um, no (1)

Cyberax (705495) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821827)

More likely industrial espionage which IS a theft.

Um, no to Re:Um, no (5, Informative)

baboo_jackal (1021741) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821909)

GP is talking about the fact that Dave Cutler, the dude who architected VMS at DEC later went to work for Microsoft and ended up architecting Windows NT. Either GP is ignorant of this fact, or they were being intentionally misleading and trying to imply that someone at Microsoft stole something from VMS. Which isn't true. (unless you count Cutler's freely choosing to change jobs "stealing" somehow.)

Re:Um, no (1)

CrashNBrn (1143981) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821899)

Repeating something doesn't make it true.

The Promise of NT [roughlydrafted.com]
In order to deliver NT as an entirely new operating system, Microsoft assembled a design team of engineers lead by Dave Cutler, who was hired from DEC. Cutler had worked on DEC' VMS, which was the main OS contender against Unix in the higher end workstation market. NT's design reflects many conventions of VMS, although it also included many new ideas.

DOS was purchased from Patterson, whom has admitted to hacking CP/M. And if you go back a few years, you'll see that CP/M was based on a DEC's operating system. So while Bill/MS didn't write DOS from scratch that was sold to IBM, MS didn't just outright steal CP/M either.

Re:Um, yes (1)

TrollHammer (1604811) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821815)

Microsoft "stole" nothing. Every thing they have was given to them voluntarily for something else in exchange. Not a shot was fired. If you have a complaint, take it up with the people who make it difficult to use an alternative... like your bank possibly, or the tax man. Microsoft has done nothing out of the ordinary in this market economy. Don't be playing the victim.

I am sorry, but I beg to disagree - Microsoft has done somethings out of the ordinary, otherwise the DOD [usdoj.gov] and the European Comission would have not punished Microsoft [europa.eu]

Plus, I really think that Windows ME was a crime against the whole humankind :P

Re:Um, no (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28821747)

Hatred is an incredibly unhealthy emotion. That you would waste it on a company for acting like a company is a terrible shame.

Pretty big caveat (-1)

DoofusOfDeath (636671) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821469)

I don't care who it comes from, as long as there are solid reasons for the code, and as long as we don't have to worry about licensing etc. issues

Given Microsoft's history, his caveat seems to make the rest of his statement irrelevant.

Isn't their code GPL? (4, Informative)

Xocet_00 (635069) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821499)

Unless I'm mistaken (and I very well may be) the code released is under the GPL, which seems to me to eliminate any worry about "licensing etc. issues", regardless of Microsoft's history.

Re:Pretty big caveat (2, Insightful)

Sir_Lewk (967686) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821531)

Their code was released GPLv2, licensing was never an issue that was discussed by anyone remotely informed.

Now if we want to start arguing over weither or not patent violations could come into play then fine, we can also delve into the whole Embrace Extend Extinguish theory, but at this point we are right back to arguing politics, not technology.

refreshing (3, Insightful)

Sir_Lewk (967686) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821475)

It's really refreshing to hear some level headed comments from high profile open source guys once in a while. I tire of all of the "watch out for X!" and "Y are just out to get you!" stories, no matter how relevant they may or may not be.

Re:refreshing (5, Insightful)

gavron (1300111) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821541)

It IS refreshing to hear level-headed guys say that the FOSS community will happily accept code from those who won't turn on the community and sue it. Microsoft clearly is NOT one of those entities. They have sued as recently as this year (see FAT32 and TOMTOM) and they have funded other suits in the past years (see SCO vs IBM, www.groklaw.com). Microsoft isn't a "partner". They are the snake you let into your home to embrace, extinguish, and "extend" your neck.

It would be refreshing to see their decline in sales (http://www.informationweek.com/news/windows/operatingsystems/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=218600533) and in share value to continue. They've spent two decades making their bed -- mostly by ripping the feathers off of real contributors like Novell, Digital Equipment Corporation, etc. Let them lie in it.

E

Re:refreshing (5, Insightful)

Draek (916851) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821777)

Except they can't sue for copyright infringement, since its under the GPLv2 just as the rest of the kernel, and while they theoretically could sue over patent infringement, that applies to any and all code more complex than "hello, world", and goes for all companies.

That's what Linus is warning against, just because you hate them doesn't mean you have to leave your rationality aside.

Re:refreshing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28821877)

Umm, they didn't and won't sue about the code they contributed, and the code helps linux. Why then not accept the code?

Not accepting this code isn't going to help with their behaviour regarding code other than this.

'getting back at' is not a goal of Linux.

RMS is spinning in his grave (5, Funny)

linzeal (197905) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821497)

RMS is going to helicopter out of his grave. 'The Ride of the Valkyries' is going to start playing and innocent civilians will be killed. Theo will say he loves the smell of 'Fresh Napalm in the Morning'. Mark my words.

Re:RMS is spinning in his grave (2, Funny)

Captain Spam (66120) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821601)

So... you're suggesting we kill RMS first so that he can spin his way out of his grave?

And make sure we bury him the right side up so he helicopters out instead of drills his way through the planet?

Re:RMS is spinning in his grave (5, Insightful)

lxs (131946) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821619)

What is he doing in his grave? Last thing I heard he was still alive.

Re:RMS is spinning in his grave (5, Funny)

jeremyp (130771) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821833)

Trying to get out.

Re:RMS is spinning in his grave (1)

maxwell demon (590494) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821635)

I thought RMS were still alive?

Re:RMS is spinning in his grave (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28821865)

He is! He's been kept alive by a steady diet of publicly consumed toenails!

Re:RMS is spinning in his grave (1)

an unsound mind (1419599) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821807)

RMS will be the drill that the Open Source movement will use to pierce the heavens.

Time for Linus to step down? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28821501)

Comments like this just show the ever increasing gap between Linus and the average open source developer. All this will accomplish is causing further division in a community which has thrived in the past by uniting against a common enemy.

What? (4, Interesting)

Xocet_00 (635069) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821537)

Do you honestly believe the whole open source movement depends on people uniting around a hatred for Microsoft, as opposed to sharing a love for innovation and technology?

Sorry if that sounds kind if "hippy", but saying that the entire FOSS world is based around nothing but hatred for a particular corporation really cheapens the accomplishments of the people involved.

Re:What? (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28821591)

>Do you honestly believe the whole open source movement depends on people uniting around a hatred for Microsoft, as opposed to sharing a love for innovation and technology?

Welcome to Slashdot! You must be new here.

Cheapens? (1)

msimm (580077) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821879)

How could ignorance cheapen anything but the original poster? It's fun to rant and rave (or to just watch) but most important individuals in the oss movement have more complicated views then the 20 word summaries in news stories will convey. Linus of course happens to have a pretty remarkable outlook, but any geeks here would know that from reading his biography, right?

Re:Time for Linus to step down? (3, Insightful)

b4dc0d3r (1268512) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821593)

No no no, the is the opportunity for us to say to Microsoft, look it really isn't that bad, is it? You benefit from open source, other people benefit, and it's a model you can profit from as well.

MS is scared of open source because it has been seen as a threat. But what if at the end of all of this, MS realizes that giving people the source code, while selling a product and related support, benefits everyone? It will happen slowly, but they are coming around.

WiX was the first shot, and now they are realizing that helping others helps them. So maybe somewhere down the line, we can get for example explorer.exe source code. Or something else that they give away free - so we can customize and fix bugs instead of whining that it sucks.

If the "average open source developer" is supposed to hate microsoft, and not evaluate anything simply because it's Microsoft, we're going to have some very out of touch projects and non-interoperable software and an overall loss of quality.

Not a disease, Tribalism (5, Insightful)

Sarusa (104047) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821507)

I mostly agree with him, but just to be anal (nerdly prerogative)... Stupid, irrational fanboyism isn't really a disease, it's just tribalism. We're apes. We choose some stupid tribe to identify with, be it PS3 or XBox or Windows or Linux or Mac whatever and death to all outsiders. The more underdog the group, the more rabid the members are (Linux, Mac, Amiga). Religion is one of the best, if not the best, strategies for cementing loyalty and killing all competitors, so it shouldn't be a surprise that even something as secular as this takes on strongly religious overtones.

Not so strangely, as Linux continues to spread its influence the fanbase is getting less stupidly polarized (but then the old guard entrenches further, to combat this 'threat'). Generally this eases up as you get older and your penis stops ruling your brain, but not always.

Re:Not a disease, Tribalism (5, Insightful)

HermMunster (972336) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821669)

I don't think we are trying to become a tribe. I think we are trying to undo the decades of abuse Microsoft preyed on us using their monopoly.

What many of you don't understand here is that Linus has been desperately seeking to have Microsoft write programs for Linux to validate his efforts for at least a decade. He even said that if they do then he's won.

I think Linus doesn't understand much outside his purview. He hasn't really focused on what affects our pocketbooks, our future, and our goals. We want to have applications and game developers write their product for Linux. But when you have a company that threatens the industry with 235 alleged patent violations and then shuts down OpenGL support, then stacks the deck with DRM (at the core of the OS), and then says that they will kill Linux by such and such a year. Well, there's reason for the hatred. The community wants untainted product so that in the years when Microsoft is in serious decline they can't keep coming back holding a knife to the community's throat in an effort to stave off their own demise (which is inevitable).

I dislike many things, spinach is one of them, and yet I have a disease because I hate it? Likewise with other foods and other things. I tend to dislike those that rip me off, yet I am suffering a disease due to that dislike?

The guy really needs to know when to open his mouth and when not to. For instance, he should talk less about disease and more about how to make Linux a better product and to speak with influence to those hardware vendors and software vendors to create an environment where we can just do our own things and not be influenced by Microsoft.

Re:Not a disease, Tribalism (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28821799)

If you simply dislike spinach, you don't have a disease. If your dislike of spinach, however, makes you start a massive campaign calling spinach evil and saying nobody should eat it, then yes, you have a disease.

Re:Not a disease, Tribalism (2, Funny)

morgan_greywolf (835522) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821847)

If you simply dislike spinach, you don't have a disease. If your dislike of spinach, however, makes you start a massive campaign calling spinach evil and saying nobody should eat it, then yes, you have a disease.

But....spinach is evil!

Re:Not a disease, Tribalism (1)

Man On Pink Corner (1089867) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821923)

If you simply dislike spinach, you don't have a disease. If your dislike of spinach, however, makes you start a massive campaign calling spinach evil and saying nobody should eat it, then yes, you have a disease.

Gee. Somebody should tell Ballmer that.

Re:Not a disease, Tribalism (1)

Elektroschock (659467) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821911)

And you can also assume an unfaithful patent policy because they do not depend on the platform for their own business. I would expect them to ask Microsoft sign a patent pledge before their code enters the mainline.

Linus thinks like a ReThuglican Jew (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28821895)

Linus thinks like a ReThuglican Jew

8 years of The Jew Puppet George W. Chimpy McHalliburtan Bu$Hitler have taught me that hatred is a virtue.

re comments (4, Insightful)

freddieb (537771) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821509)

Sounds very reasonable. Linus is correct. The point of open source is to do something you need done. Sharing it with others gives you satisfaction and reward. What's wrong with that!

Re:re comments (4, Informative)

someone1234 (830754) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821567)

Microsoft is sharing its stuff because they were caught red handed.
This 'sharing' is a good thing, but it isn't the merit of Microsoft, it is a merit of the GPL.
Some people still don't want to realise this.
If Linus will ever use this Microsoft code, he can thank this to the license he chose years ago, he couldn't do the same now if he started Linux using the BSD license.

What is a disease? (3, Insightful)

140Mandak262Jamuna (970587) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821523)

Disease is just your body's way of letting you know that some part of the body is going rotten. Diagnosing something as a disease does not invalidate the cause nor does it cure what is rotten.

Re:What is a disease? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28821555)

So? He didn't say that in a big way, the title of the summary is really out of context.

+1 for Linus (4, Insightful)

DavidR1991 (1047748) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821533)

I don't think I can say anything, other than the fact this confirms my assumptions that Linus is an extremely level-headed, perceptive person.

Re:+1 for Linus (2, Interesting)

msimm (580077) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821887)

He's funny too, if you read his biography.

Makes sense. (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28821563)

Open sores are usually a symptom of disease.

Funny this was submitted by kdawson (2, Interesting)

f0dder (570496) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821575)

Ironic this story is coming from kdawson. He's like the Fox News guy from Slashdot. The story doesn't have to be true if it garners a ton of posts. His stories about MS are often shallow, w/ summary full of some perceived slight often having nothing to do with the story. This often induces a feeding frenzy as MS haters who take the bait goes. My only reason why this continues is that these bring a lot of ad revenue to Slashdot.

Re:Funny this was submitted by kdawson (1)

onefriedrice (1171917) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821685)

Ironic this story is coming from kdawson. He's like the Fox News guy from Slashdot. The story doesn't have to be true if it garners a ton of posts.

Can you point to one or several Fox News stories that are absolutely false (as opposed to just having conservative leanings which of course don't automatically make the story false)? I know it's popular to dislike and bash Fox News around here (because we're all so "enlightened"), but I personally haven't heard or read about any of their stories that was clearly not true. Frankly, I think it's much more enlightening to get my news from several sources in order to average out any reporter bias, and I certainly don't rule out Fox News.

Re:Funny this was submitted by kdawson (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28821731)

True enough.

Very little of what they broadcast is actually false, but the reporter bias on it is far more disgusting than what you'd get on some other news sources.

That isn't to say that the other 24-hour news channels don't have their own fucktards broadcasting, just that Fox seems to have a higher concentration.

Re:Funny this was submitted by kdawson (2, Informative)

rtaylor (70602) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821831)

The best example went to court where Fox argued that there was "nothing illegal about lying, concealing or distorting information by a major press organization"; the Florida Appeals court agreed with that statement.

As a result, Fox and all other US news organizations are fully within their right (in Florida at least) to make up anything they want.

http://www.ceasespin.org/ceasespin_blog/ceasespin_blogger_files/fox_news_gets_okay_to_misinform_public.html [ceasespin.org]

Re:Funny this was submitted by kdawson (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28821875)

How about the way Fox labels Republican elected officials with the (D) tag almost every time one of them is exposed as a criminal, philanderer, or flaming hypocrite?

This has happened too many times to be a coincidence or innocent mistake.

linus should not be talking about hypocrisy (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28821577)

in my humble opinion.
He is one smart corporate-duping emperor penguin.

Press releases make Linus look cool and technical.
Other private releases make Him look quite different.

Generally respect Linus (1, Insightful)

HermMunster (972336) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821599)

I generally respect the man, but he's turning into the extreme right rather than just letting things play out. It really isn't up to him to try to influence things in this regard. He should focus on getting other hardware vendors to cooperate and to get other software vendors to write programs and to get the kernel free of exploits--such as the one recently discovered.

Microsoft has garnered the hatred. Microsoft created the disease. Microsoft is the cancer on software--and I'm sure we all have heard Microsoft claim Linux is a cancer on software.

What Linus doesn't do, I'm certain of it, is follow what happens in the industry nor has he for a long time. Sure he keeps up on some things but not what counts for the rest of us. If he had he would understand the hatred. He would understand it isn't a disease but it is the world's software immune system kicking in to cure the disease that was let to roam free unchecked for far too long. The disease is really Microsoft.

Re:Generally respect Linus (5, Insightful)

garcia (6573) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821693)

Microsoft created the disease. Microsoft is the cancer on software--and I'm sure we all have heard Microsoft claim Linux is a cancer on software.

I used to be like you. I really cared about all the drama that surrounds Microsoft vs Linux and then later, in my mid-twenties and continuing into my thirties, I stopped giving a shit. Why? Because it just doesn't matter anymore. I suggest you listen to Linus' words and take heed. The man is a visionary. He wants you to stop concentrating on the bullshit and start concentrating on what matters--supporting what you want to support.

I can definitely drink to that and I think I will. Bell's Lager FTW. Cheers.

I disagree (5, Insightful)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821609)

I think its quite healthy to dislike ( ok, hate ) an entity whose stated goal is to wipe you from the face of the earth. We arent talking about some bully in a school yard, we are talking about a well funded organized corporation that wants you eradicated..

Re:I disagree (1)

Timothy Brownawell (627747) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821665)

I think its quite healthy to dislike ( ok, hate ) an entity whose stated goal is to wipe you from the face of the earth. We arent talking about some bully in a school yard, we are talking about a well funded organized corporation that wants you eradicated..

Work to prevent them causing damage and reverse what damage they do cause, but don't hate them. Hating them clouds your judgment.

Agree with him here. (2, Insightful)

Seth Kriticos (1227934) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821659)

I don't use Microsoft products, and I don't like their corporate agenda, but I don't hate them. It's very counter productive.

Making ironic jokes here and there is fun, but there are better things to do than hating someone/something.

As long as I/anybody is actively forced to use Microsoft products, I'm fine with them being around.

People who don't have a clue about the topic irritate me at times (OSS fanatics and clueless users and OEM's that don't give me choice).

Microsoft hatred is not a disease (2, Insightful)

erroneus (253617) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821677)

It is an acquired distaste. The fact is, nearly everyone here who hates Microsoft for various reasons once loved and admired Microsoft. The love was eroded and destroyed by Microsoft's own actions and choices. For me, it was the way it intentionally abused "partners" by various means (especially) including some tactics such as forcing partners to fail in their contracts and then claiming whatever work was done by the partners. In particular, a story about a mobile phone maker who partnered with Microsoft where the agreement was that if the company failed to meet specific terms and deadlines, the partnership would dissolve and Microsoft would claim whatever IP that existed. Well, as it turned out, the other company needed something from Microsoft which it did not deliver, causing the deal to go bad and then Microsoft came in to claim whatever they wanted leaving the other company with nothing. That was a particularly dirty and rather deliberate act on their part and this was no isolated incident... there are others; many others.

It's not that Linux or any other alternative is a Microsoft "opponent" for many of us. It's that Microsoft is simply evil in much of what they do. They do things that are difficult for many to believe or understand and they most certainly play dirty and illegally.

Re:Microsoft hatred is not a disease (1)

Elektroschock (659467) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821835)

Linux is the challenger. If Linux was evil Microsoft could be the challenger.

you keep thinking that Linus until... (1)

FudRucker (866063) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821723)

until some agreement or contract with microsoft comes back to bite you on the ass later on...

It's not a disease, it's a symptom (1)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821745)

What next, a "baddiseaseanalogy" tag?

Microsoft Hatred is a symptom, same as when your body is fighting off an infection and you get a fever and a runny nose.

Microsoft is the disease.

Hatred may be a "disease", but scepticism isn't (1)

maxwell demon (590494) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821749)

It would be silly not to question the ultimate motives. Not because they could be selfish (a company's motive is almost guaranteed to be), but because those motives might be against your own interest. Especially when the company has a track record of actions against you.

Now in this case, it seems to have been just a case of the license working as intended, so yes, it's probably the right move to integrate the code. However, that doesn't mean that the skepticism wasn't right. It just turned out that this time, the motives of Microsoft are not in contradiction to the goals of the Linux community.

Plenty of valid reasons for many to hate... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28821751)

the company that put them out of business using illegal methods.

Fair enough.. (1)

cheap.computer (1036494) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821761)

Linus - (( "I think the Microsoft hatred is a disease" )) Ballmer - (( "Linux is a cancer that attaches itself in an intellectual property sense to everything it touches," ))

Thank you Linus (2, Interesting)

Tsaot (859424) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821765)

I just have to put a big Thank You out to Linus. This uproar over MS putting out this code is ridiculous. MS sells programs to make money. True in the past they have not been the friendliest of companies, but point me to a major OS vendor that has. The fact that MS even wrote this code so that virtualized Linux machines will work better under its HyperV is fantastic! Not only are they recognizing Linux as a useful OS, but they are participating in the community appropriately. They wrote code for the OS that used GPL'd code, so they released their code. As Linus points out, this is how the GPL is supposed to work! You need something added? Write it and release what you wrote. What else do you expect from MS? "Oh, I see Gnometris is using 10 year old sprites, I'm going to be nice and upgrade it to vector based graphics"?

MS deserves hate for some things, but when they play by the rules is hardly one of them.

Re:Thank you Linus (2, Interesting)

morgan_greywolf (835522) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821891)

Kirk: They're animals!
Linus: Jim, they're an historic opportunity here.
Kirk: Don't believe them. Don't trust them.
Linus: They're dying.
Kirk: Let them die!

Perception manangement (2, Interesting)

actionbastard (1206160) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821793)

While we all love to 'bash' Microsoft and its tactics here, on occasion, please let' s not lose sight as to why they released this code. They did so because it contained both open and closed source components and were issuing them with both a closed and open source license. Those who aren't 'new around here' know that licensing them in this fashion is a violation of the GPLv2 terms. So basically they did this to avoid any 'repercussions' from the community -not that that would stop anyone anyway- and not out of a sense of 'contribution' to the FOSS movement. Ramji and the legal department at Microsoft probably had one of those 'Oh, SNAP!' moments and decided it was best to look like benefactors than the 'evil hive of scum and villainy' that most people perceive them as.

Only natural (1)

ternarybit (1363339) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821829)

It's quite natural to associate "Microsoft" with "disease" when a good 6 out of 10 Windows machines I encounter are infected with malware.

Also, "hating" MS is much different than "strongly disagreeing with," "not preferring" or being "unsatisfied with" MS.

I don't hate them (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28821843)

Because I see no reason to do so, yeah, I see them like enemies, I don't trust any of their 'friendly' move, like recent community promise or GPL code, but that doesn't mean I have to hate them.

"Microsoft *Patches* Linux" (1)

krkhan (1071096) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821855)

Seriously, what bug it was? A GPL violation? "Patches" also implies that it's already accepted in the code tree. In fact, to a non-technical user, the headline would read something like "Linux had a flaw, Microsoft fixed it. Linux people still won't stop bitching."

Heresy (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28821871)

Linus committed code from the Antichrist !? Basement of Church of Linux has just been shaken. My Linus-Jesus picture has broken, I am sheppard-less now. How could you do that to us, Linus!!!

technology over politics (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28821883)

Plato reportedly said: One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. [http://www.synonym.org/quotes/plato.html]

Well, he's right, it is! (2, Interesting)

Abalamahalamatandra (639919) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821889)

I don't hate Microsoft, in fact I've done quite a few implementations of Exchange and SharePoint and AD for companies in the past.

But I do understand that they're a typical scumbag corporate giant acting the way scumbag corporate giants do - trying to make it so that you HAVE to buy their product because you have no other choice.

So now I make sure that I don't become dependent on that product by actively avoiding it wherever possible - which means my home family machine, my personal laptops, and my work machine all run Ubuntu quite happily. And when people ask me how I do it, I happily show them so they know they have that option too. Does it involve sacrifice? Yes, a little bit, and less every day. But it also involves great advantages, namely that I don't have to worry much at all about my wife and kids visiting the wrong Web site (and that's all it takes!) and getting our family machine rooted nine ways to Sunday, leading to my bank accounts being emptied out. That's really the stakes here.

Could I spend all my time positively hating Microsoft and all that they do? Yes, I could, but I'd rather spend my time making sure they don't matter to me. Recently I read an article about Microsoft's change in the upgrade rules, meaning you have to jump through more hoops to do a bare install from an upgrade CD. In the past, I would have been ticked off and hated Microsoft more. Now, I just thought "man, sucks to be you if you're still a Windows user" and moved on to trying out the latest Ubuntu alpha release and looking for bugs. Much more productive use of my time, and more hurtful to MS as well, because it means Ubuntu will be a better OS if the bugs I find are fixed.

Hitler Open Sources Hollerith Punch-Card Algorithm (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28821893)

Inspired by Torvalds' I-don't-care-who-it-comes-from stance, Adolf Hitler held a press conference in Brazil [wikipedia.org] to announce he would open source the previously-proprietary algorithms behind the IBM Hollerith punch-card machines used by Nazis [cnet.com] .

Talking about hate and diseases (1)

janwedekind (778872) | more than 4 years ago | (#28821919)

Kevin Spacey: "I hate that virus!"
Dustin Hoffman: "Come on! You have to admire its simplicity. It's one-billionth of our size and its beating us!"
Kevin S.: "What do you want to do? Take it out for lunch?"
Dustin H.: "No, I'm gonna kill it."

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