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Linux Notebooks Selling Well On Amazon Germany

kdawson posted more than 4 years ago | from the next-stop-world-domination dept.

Linux Business 207

christian.einfeldt writes "The LinuxTech.net blog points out that Linux notebooks are currently selling quite well on Amazon's list in Germany. The blog includes screenshots showing the Linux Asus and Aspire notebooks in positions 2 and 4, respectively, on that list. These machines are not netbooks, but full notebooks, albeit on the moderate to low side regarding price and performance. That LinuxTech.net blog was dated 23 July 2009, and the Asus machine is still holding second place more than one day later, while the Acer machine slipped to fifth position, despite the volatile nature of Amazon bestseller lists. While these two data points are just snapshots in time, they are consistent with other data showing that Microsoft itself attributes some of its recent weak earnings to surging sales of low-end notebooks, as well as data showing that the Linux-powered and Unix-powered computers topped Amazon's sales charts in all categories for 2007. If there is to ever be a 'year of desktop (or laptop) Linux', it won't happen all at once, but will creep up in ways similar to what we are seeing now."

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Even the Germans... (3, Interesting)

Quantos (1327889) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825329)

Make some bad choices. Actually Linux probably outperforms Windows or Mac on low end, and if meets the needs then who is going to argue with it.

Re:Even the Germans... (0, Offtopic)

Quantos (1327889) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825353)

I would like to know how that was a 'Troll', can you even read?

Re:Even the Germans... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28825389)

ROFL, you mods are complete fucking idiots. Did you stop reading his post at the end of the third word?

Re:Even the Germans... (0, Offtopic)

Quantos (1327889) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825401)

Being German, and having a good sense of humor, I would like to know how I'm flamebait and a Troll.

Re:Even the Germans... (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28825429)

It's just a guess, but "Even the Germans make some bad choices" does not exactly bring out the best memories from the World's History... hope I could help.

Re:Even the Germans... (0, Offtopic)

Quantos (1327889) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825469)

Not really, people that are still focused on that just have their heads up their asses. I'm German, but damn, I've got a sense of humor.
What would happen if I said that even Russians make bad choices, or - God forbid - Americans make bad choices, does that get me banned?

Fuck off people, get a life.

NOW THAT'S A TROLL WITH FLAMEBAIT.

Re:Even the Germans... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28826209)

Nice...I'd mod you funny if I had points

Re:Even the Germans... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28826573)

I'm German, but damn, I've got a sense of humor.

Me too (being German, that is ...). But the OP is neither funny nor coherent:

Even the Germans... Make some bad choices.

Yes, this is true, indeed. And this could be funny, depending on context.

Actually Linux probably outperforms Windows or Mac on low end, and if meets the needs then who is going to argue with it.

So, where are the Germans making bad/good choices for making the OP funny? Seriously ...

Now heading upstairs for sauerkraut!

The Germans... (3, Funny)

Malfourmed (633699) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825551)

It's just a guess, but "Even the Germans make some bad choices" does not exactly bring out the best memories from the World's History...

Don't mention the war!!

Re:The Germans... (0, Offtopic)

Quantos (1327889) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825667)

Now how was he 'Offtopic', that was damned funny.

Re:The Germans... (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28825765)

I mentioned it once but I think I got away with it.

Re:Even the Germans... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28825715)

What a mean response to a perfectly valid question. Mod parent down, please.

Re:Even the Germans... (1)

RDW (41497) | more than 4 years ago | (#28826211)

'It's just a guess, but "Even the Germans make some bad choices" does not exactly bring out the best memories from the World's History'

Indeed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUHomRLop7I [youtube.com]

Re:Even the Germans... (1, Insightful)

SerpentMage (13390) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825545)

You are using SARCASM and IRONY... Does not go over well in USA... Americans can be funny people but their lack of comprehension of irony is quite astounding....

Actually I was laughing at your comment... Thought it was funny. But then again I am German-Canadian...

What does that get you? A sarcastic person with no sense of humor!

Re:Even the Germans... (1)

Quantos (1327889) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825565)

That depends, do you wear boots?

Re:Even the Germans... (2, Interesting)

Tenebrousedge (1226584) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825841)

I used my mod points elsewhere, or I would correct the above moderation. I've been getting 15 points twice a week for a couple of weeks now; I try to follow the guidelines as best I can. Especially in regards to downmods: there's very little reason to downmod, I find. Anything that's obviously flamebait will be ignored, and while there are occasionally trolls here, I think it's usually better to post AC to point them out.

On the whole, I think the slashdot community is a good one, mods included. I suspect that people who spend most of their mod points marking things 'troll' and 'flamebait' are less likely to get mod points in the future; if not, that might be a good feature request. The only other thing I'd wish were different about the mod system would be to return to the old system of metamoderation. quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

There are a lot of things to get frustrated about with slashdot: dupes, lame memes, and zealots of every stripe. Even at that, I think this is probably the best site on the internet (though perhaps not the universe [xmission.com] ). The dialogues here are fascinating and hugely informative. Every story on biochemistry, astronomy, or optics seems to draw out people with decades of experience to give anecdotes and wisdom that I'd never find elsewhere.

I think the most consistent thing I've noticed about slashdot moderation and comments is that anything that gets modded +5 is worth reading. And as Pliny tells us, "True glory consists in doing what deserves to be written; in writing what deserves to be read."

-Tene

Re:Even the Germans... (1)

Snaller (147050) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825999)

Its because you attacked Germans - it doesn't matter if you are one yourself (they didn't know that). You could just stay it was a bad choice without mixing in nationality.

Was it a waste of a mod point? yeah sure, but people - all people the whole species - are nuts, welcome to the planet.

Re:Even the Germans... (1)

FudRucker (866063) | more than 4 years ago | (#28826059)

i am assuming you are referring to world war two, and no, we did not attack the Germans, we attacked the Nazis (Hitler's army that raped almost all of Europe, north Africa & parts of western Russia & Ukraine)...

some of us read history books.

Re:Even the Germans... (0)

Dan541 (1032000) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825873)

This is /. expect no integrity from the mods.

Re:Even the Germans... (4, Insightful)

HangingChad (677530) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825549)

I'm not sure how that qualifies as flamebait. It's a lot easier to fit Linux to low end hardware than Mac or Windows. Windows 7 runs on netbooks but it doesn't run that well. And if Linux gets wider acceptance in Europe, that would hardly be a surprise.

It's possible the mod moved the rating with the scroll wheel after selection. It's easy to do and not notice. If you're not paying attention you can start scrolling page but if the rating dropdown is still selected, you'll scroll the selection options. At least in FF, not sure if IE works the same way.

Re:Even the Germans... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28826029)

I'm not sure how that qualifies as flamebait.

Germans -> Bad choices -> Heading towards Godwin.

Re:Even the Germans... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28826039)

Windows 7 runs on netbooks but it doesn't run that well.

Lies

Re:Even the Germans... (2, Interesting)

Hymer (856453) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825947)

You may not be aware of it but Linux outperforms Windows on any platform, 88.6% of the top 500 computers [top500.org] in the world run Linux (June 2009).

Re:Even the Germans... (2, Interesting)

Erikderzweite (1146485) | more than 4 years ago | (#28826199)

You really have to look closer at that statistic: 88,6 is the percentage of supercomputers that run only Linux. If you really want the number of machines running Linux in that list, you have to add 5.8% which are mixed systems and 2 supercomputers that are listed as running Windows, but are really mixed systems (this is probably done to make Microsoft look a bit better). So we end up having 94,8% of world's 500 fastest computers having Linux installed.

Because in some areas brains are more prevalent than PR and marketing.

Re:Even the Germans... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28825963)

Damn, I know this is Slashdot and people here live in WoW, so their currency is masturbillings or whatever they use there, but the thing with Linux in laptops or desktops is not because Linux is good is just because it is free! IT IS A SIMPLE MONETARY ISSUE!
Look to the stats for Brazil, the country in the world with the highest number of desktops and laptops sold in the last 6 months. 80% of the medium to high end computers sold in Brazil run Linux, and 95% of the netbooks sold in Brazil run Linux as well.
It is just because they are cheaper than the Windows ones.
Then after people gets their computer, they just go to the closest street corner and buy a pirated copy of Vista, XP or Windows 7, and install on their computers. Bye, bye Linux...

Re:Even the Germans... (3, Interesting)

hairyfeet (841228) | more than 4 years ago | (#28826239)

That is because the average Joe don't know squat about OSes, hell they often can't even tell you WHAT OS they are running (I often get "Windows something" when I ask which OS a customer is running) but believe you me they DO notice when their (insert Quickbooks/Quicken, Cheapo Lexmark all in one, puzzle games they picked up at Wally World, etc) don't work. There is a REASON why MSI was looking at 400% return rates on their Linux netbooks, I know because I had the same thing happen when I tried selling Linux.

Here is what happens-You explain to Joe about how easy it is to get free software with Linux, show him how to use synaptic, tell him to check hardware compatibility before buying extra junk. He promptly goes to Wally World, or Worst Buy and goes "Oooh...sale!" and buys whatever PC junk o' the day is on sale. When he gets it home and of course it doesn't work so the PC comes back with Joe expecting you to "fix it" which of course you can't, because Linux drivers for the kind of stuff you get at Wally World is pretty much non existent. So you either A-burn the customer, in which case he spreads the word and soon you are out of business, or B-you take back the machine and eat the difference between what it sold for new and what you can get for it used.

I know the Linux guys will hate me for saying this, but you know why I am really grateful for Linux? Because thanks to Linux MSFT is having to stop acting like giant douches when it comes to pricing. If it wasn't for Linux the "MSFT tax" would be crazy, and the cheapest Win7 would probably be a couple of hundred just for the upgrade. I mean look here [engadget.com] at a $298 Vista Basic notebook with an actual discrete GPU. you know MSFT can't be getting squat for Vista Basic if they can offer it at that price and still make money. And we can all thank Linux for that, by putting the fear of FLOSS into the Ballmer monkey and making MSFT actually compete.

But to get Linux to "just work" for Joe, they are gonna need native Photoshop, Quickbooks, EA games, drivers for all the little gadgets at Wally World, etc. And sadly I doubt this will ever happen. So Linux will continue to scare MSFT but not actually gain any real ground with the critical home markets. Because it is pretty clear that most companies don't want to play the GPL game, especially after RMS went after TiVo with GPL V3, and without them to give Linux native apps to Joe Linux will be "free as in worthless" to him because he can't get his stuff to run out of the box. And please don't bring up companies like Intel that do, because if you look EVERY major corp that has released has significant server/enterprise markets they are appealing to. The stuff in Wally World don't get sold to server markets and they don't have the kinds of patent warchests the likes of AMD, IBM, Intel, etc have. For the smaller companies to release with all the patent trolls in the USA would be suicide. After all, is RMS gonna indemnify me if I release my driver code and get hit by a patent troll? I didn't think so.

Re:Even the Germans... (5, Insightful)

Salsaman (141471) | more than 4 years ago | (#28826257)

In my experience, Linux outperforms Windows and Mac on the low end, the high end, and the middle end.

Free software is never a bad choice.

People want save 10% of the price (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28825339)

Last two notebooks I bought came with freedos.

Re:People want save 10% of the price (4, Interesting)

molnarcs (675885) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825749)

Last two notebooks I bought came with freedos.

Last two notebooks I bought came with FreeDos too - A dell Vostro 1400 and a Vostro 1300 (for a friend). The shop was selling windows licenses separately - if you bought one they would install it for you. Or they'll install windows for free if you make enough of the staff laugh :) That's how things work here in Vietnam. The Vietnamese are fun loving people. If you need a favor (or if you want to be taken seriously), make them laugh ;)

Ja Der Krafty Kraut Schwinehund Bist Nicht Tot !! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28826299)

It's INVASION !! RUn for France, the only place the germans are sure not to invade !!

Re:People want save 10% of the price (2, Interesting)

derGoldstein (1494129) | more than 4 years ago | (#28826051)

Here in Israel most of the "geek shops" sell laptops with freedos. Sometimes I'm surprised to see brand name laptops being sold without windows (but with a real warranty), while people I know in the US and Europe complain that they don't have that option.

It's very popular these days, because if you bought a computer ~3-4 years ago, you probably have a copy of XP, and a relatively slow machine. It's common practice to get a laptop without windows and just move your copy from the old machine to the new one. At which point you either sell the old computer without an OS, or load a Linux distro on it and turn it into a NAS or a server.

Re:People want save 10% of the price (1)

Ilgaz (86384) | more than 4 years ago | (#28826365)

Lenovo, at least in Istanbul does use their IBM-DOS advantage that way too. In their business laptops (I actually have one in shop basket), "installed OS" is DOS. I assume it is IBM DOS and the money difference goes to 3GB of RAM I think which is really impressive.

It is a huge issue for MS. As it has some archaic OS installed, I have some time to think whether to set FreeBSD with KDE or go with Windows. If it came with Vista, I would be really lazy to do it.

Of course, Lenovo is not really IBM and their site is infected with "recommends Vista" junk all over the place. IBM would never do such things for couple of extra cents. Or, they would... to get MS into more trouble with monopoly accusations :)

the tags today are gold (5, Funny)

timmarhy (659436) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825365)

"morekdawsoncrap"

who ever is tagging these is a legend.

Re:the tags today are gold (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28825409)

Being dissed on the front page. Ouch.

Re:the tags today are gold (0, Offtopic)

timmarhy (659436) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825457)

it's fitting. he is by far the worse "editor" i've ever come across.

Why thank you (0, Offtopic)

Norsefire (1494323) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825431)

I tagged it as that in "the mysterious future" (although it's not called that anymore, it shows the time the story will appear to everyone).

It's the best way to make tags "stick". Before it appears to everyone there's very little tagging going on, so basically any tag will show up as a "top tag", as soon as it hits the mainpage other people see the tag and tag it the same. Say for example it was tagged "linux, netbook, germany, godwinslaw, amazon, it, otherstuff" and one person tagged it "morekdawsoncrap", the tag wouldn't be popular enough to show up so that everyone else does the same.

KD will probably use his infinite-editor mod points to destroy my karma now though :(

Re:the tags today are gold (3, Interesting)

troll8901 (1397145) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825557)

kdawson's posted stories, IMO, are not too bad and sometimes actually worth reading. I for one, am not filtering him out in my Slashdot Preferences.

I'd browsed the Firehose a few months back, and I was surprised by the sheer number of story submissions. It's a tough decision to pick the best ones for the day.

You have to know that .. (5, Interesting)

Henk Poley (308046) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825371)

You have to know that 'major' German PC enthusiast magazines have been publishing tutorials monthly about using Linux since around 2000. Together with installation CDs/DVDs etc. Also their government has a strong push towards using Linux.

Not surprising (1)

aepervius (535155) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825451)

It does not sound surprising, knowing it is the country of origin of the Chaos Computer Club...

Re:You have to know that .. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28825475)

You also have to know that quite a lot of FreeDOS-equipped notebooks are sold in Germany, because people around here just like to use DOS. Come on, the first thing people do with these Linux and DOS notebooks is install a copy of Windows (MSDN-AA, Windows 7 RC or plain illegal copies.)

Re:You have to know that .. (1)

maxwell demon (590494) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825793)

While I can imagine that some people buy FreeDOS computers (or computers without any OS; yes, you can get them) in order to put Windows on it (either because they want a non-OEM version they can move to their next computer, or they already have one; of course this includes those who have illegal copies), I don't think the same is true for Linux computers. And of course there are a lot of people who install Linux on a computer which came without it (and even on computers which came with Windows).

Re:You have to know that .. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28825855)

I bought a Linux laptop last Tuesday. The sales clerk, without me asking for installation help or anything, mentioned that I should change the SATA mode from "AHCI" to "IDE" in the BIOS if I wanted to install Windows or the Windows installer wouldn't be able to find the hard disk. You see, that was in a city with a university where students have access to MSDN-AA: No need to pay for another Windows license. 2009 is not the year of the Linux desktop, not in Germany, not anywhere.

(NLite instead of IDE mode. I got that, thank you. That's beside the point.)

Re:You have to know that .. (4, Interesting)

rolfwind (528248) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825523)

Also their government has a strong push towards using Linux.

They are being smart in that case. The Chinese, too, have their own Linux Distro (Red Flag) -- which government really wants the foundation of their computers (the OS) to be dependent on an American company, not to mention all the possible backdoors built for the FBI/NSA/CIA/etc. OTOH, many agencies of the US Government force you to use Windows in order to deal with them, rather than having an open standard.

I WANT to buy a Linux-based netbook. EEEPC, used to have a model which they upgraded with an SSD drive if you chose the linux option. But the netbook world moves fast, and that model is 6-9 months out of date although still offered. It might not sound like a big deal, but there are netbooks coming on the market with ~1300 x ~750 resolution (good for today's websites) instead of just 1024x600 and capable of actually playing HD video with the upgraded chipsets. But no linux version is offered. Has been that way with any new models released since February as far as I can tell. That's too bad.

And my local Walmart doesn't seem to care. Been offering the same Acer Aspire model (1GB ram and all) since the beginning of the year with no changes.

Re:You have to know that .. (1)

ZosX (517789) | more than 4 years ago | (#28826017)

So just wait for the laptop you want and buy it and install linux on it. Its not likely you are going to save much if anything on a windows free laptop and it sure isn't like linux costs anything to install. Just find something that gets good linux reviews and be happy.

Re:You have to know that .. (1)

kamapuaa (555446) | more than 4 years ago | (#28826485)

They are being smart in that case. The Chinese, too, have their own Linux Distro (Red Flag) -- which government really wants the foundation of their computers (the OS) to be dependent on an American company,

It's amazing that you can claim to speak for the Chinese government and their inside motivations. The Chinese government has never given an official policy on Red Flag Linux. The Chinese government is as opaque as mud as really their motivations can only be guessed at my experts, not firmly declared by half-informed Slashdot users. But they definitely have not given Red Flag Linux a strong push - with the Chinese government gives a strong push, motherfuckers get run over by tanks.

I work in the Shanghai IT industry and occasionally use Internet cafes and I can firmly say that I have never once ever seen Red Flag Linux either in use or for sale. Laptops are often advertised as being sold with Linux, but it's well known that that's just a codeword for "we install bootleg Windows on the computer."

Re:You have to know that .. (4, Insightful)

derGoldstein (1494129) | more than 4 years ago | (#28826009)

Whenever I hear about Linux in Germany, I think about the Munich migration. There's an ongoing debate as to whether or not it "is succeeding" or "will succeed".

Last time this came up on /. was a month ago [slashdot.org] .

The migration project is called LiMux [wikipedia.org] , and you'll find many places online that campaign against [blogspot.com] it (or strongly criticize it, sometimes it's hard to tell).

But overall I think it's very good news that consumers are making a conscious decision, with their own wallets.

Forced to be MS client (5, Interesting)

Fri13 (963421) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825395)

I wanted to buy a sub-notebook (aka netbook) with linux but I could not find such on my country anywhere from shelf itself. Ordering could over one month and the extra bucks was included when comparing windows. Biggest resellers are just simply saying that Linux versions has be sold out since start and about 6 months ago they were marked such that they will not come back to the selling lines. So only way to get such computer is to buy it with Windows. Even that I never booted Windows but throw right in the mandriva disk and installed it over windows.

It is not nice to be forced to be MS client in statics but not a client for Linux OS. At least Mandriva could get their own static about me because I registered this machine too for their database.

If world would be fair, I could call to MS or Asus and say that I want my information of selling be removed from statics as MS user.

Re:Forced to be MS client (2, Insightful)

rdnetto (955205) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825939)

Why not ask for a refund on the cost of Windows?

Re:Forced to be MS client (1)

Menkhaf (627996) | more than 4 years ago | (#28826275)

Ordering could over one month and the extra bucks was included when comparing windows.

You accidentally what?

cheap laptop (0, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28825405)

I'd buy one with Linux too. Then promptly put a pirate copy of Windows on it. It's the cheaper way to get the same thing.

Re:cheap laptop (4, Funny)

MrMr (219533) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825461)

I presume you have discovered the cheaper way to acquire your groceries as well?

Re:cheap laptop (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28825621)

Grow your own?

Re:cheap laptop (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28825659)

The fact is, many people see software as something that comes with your PC, as they are used to buying OEM bundles. When they see a cheaper option, they will go for it, and let their IT friend take care of setting it up for them. The conversation goes:

buyer: "Put windows on it" ...
it guy: "but you don't have a copy"...
buyer: "can't I just use yours?"...
it guy: "ok, whatever".. proceeds to install it with a key/crack downloaded from the web.

Re:cheap laptop (1)

burni (930725) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825825)

Yep in germany these are cheap too.

Re:cheap laptop (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28825975)

Pirated Windows is more valuable than Free Linux. It's an economic fact that bothers the hell out of lying Linux zealots, and I love it!

Linux notebooks? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28825433)

I'm sorry to say that, but I doubt that this shows a rising interest in Linux from mainstream customers in Germany. If you look at the customer reviews for the Asus notebook [amazon.de] (in German) you will find out that a lot of comments deal with removing Linux and replacing it with either Vista oder Windows 7. Naturally, customer reviews are not a representative survey but I guess a lot of people simple save the money for the OS and install pirated copies of Windows.

Experiment (5, Interesting)

dargaud (518470) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825441)

Like many here I admin family computers. A month ago I did an experiment. I told my parents I'd upgrade their aging computer (mobo and main HD change) and as such it would look different. I installed kubuntu instead of the previous system (which you can easily guess). Made sure there were desktop links to firefox, kmail, dolphin and a SD card image transfer script. I didn't even show them the result, just as an experiment. And I left. They called only once after a week: "Yeah it works fine, but we don't have skype anymore", which I promptly remotely installed. I consider this experiment a great success.

Re:Experiment (5, Interesting)

WarJolt (990309) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825479)

I did a similar experiment. I installed Xubuntu on a 166MHz laptop to see if it would run well enough to be usable. Then I asked someone to give it a shot and compare it with her laptop running windows XP and had at least 2GHz processor. After she browsed a few web pages, I asked "Which is faster; Your laptop or this one?" She quickly replied "This one". I chuckled because I knew the truth. This laptop was at least 10x slower than her laptop.

Re:Experiment (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28825629)

I converted a friend to GNU/linux by showing him that puppy linux runs faster on a pentium 1 133MHz laptop than vista did on his dualcore 2.x GHz PC. He then switched to openSUSE, painlessly because he doesn't play any games.

Re:Experiment (2, Interesting)

Jaro (4361) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825747)

Well.... I had a Linux Laptop, Pentium 133Mhz - 48mb of RAM, Slackware 10 running until recently. I ran Opera 6 and Firefox 0.7 on it because anything higher wasn't acceptable ----> it was soooooooo slow. Then with all the Javascript and Flash going around which 1. mostly doesn't work on such an old browser version and 2. it nearly kills the machine, if it runs. I really really can't image what wondrous 133Mhz system you had which could do what you say. I ran X with UWM, a small, very very lightweight window manager. Then there was no office suite which would run at an acceptable speed, so I had to use a plain text editor for simple notes, writing LaTeX if I needed a formated output. Maybe if you only use the console and links it might work....

Sorry, I can't believe you.

Re:Experiment (1)

Fri13 (963421) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825811)

I used P133Mhz and 144Mb RAM on 800x600px screen with latest puppylinux and DSL. Both worked very fine when using just writing for emails and documents or file management. Boottime was under 15 seconds and usage was nice if you can say so with such keyboard and stick-mouse and screen size.

But using Firefox was very fine (2.x series) as long as the websites did not have flash on them or heavy JS like slashdot. Basic usage was fine with those machine but the quality of screen resolution made it worse.

P133Mhz computer is fine with over 96Mb RAM when needing just simple writer computer. But I would just buy so cheap computer as possible under 100$ somewhere and push for such over 1Ghz computer same system and it would FLY!

P133Mhz is great for servers and very basic desktop use, but not great otherwise. P3 500Mhz is very great too, but more is needed for flash.

Re:Experiment (1)

Draek (916851) | more than 4 years ago | (#28826237)

RAM, RAM, RAM, Linux more than anything loves RAM. I have a P1 166mhz laptop with 80 MBs of RAM with Debian and IceWM, Opera 9 ran pretty nicely as long as you kept your tab count below ~25 or so, and Abiword was a bit sluggish but still usable.

The big problem of using such a computer today is Flash which even with Gnash instead of Adobe's plugin its a CPU and memory hog (it even makes my current 1 Ghz laptop die a quick and painful death), but if the websites you browse to don't require it there's nothing stopping you from using such a machine as a basic desktop.

Re:Experiment (4, Insightful)

bemymonkey (1244086) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825795)

It's a bit unfair to compare a fresh Xubuntu install to a crapware infested aeons-old XP install...

XP runs like a champ (at least in terms of speed) if you keep it clean and the hardware manufacturers manage to write proper drivers...

Re:Experiment (4, Interesting)

MMC Monster (602931) | more than 4 years ago | (#28826005)

The thing is, most XP installations accumulate crap that slow it down in a year or two.

The only way to clean it up is a fresh install, which most end users don't know how to do (or are too afraid to do).

Linux doesn't fill up with crap. That being said, it doesn't fill up with crap because crap writers don't target Linux (yet).

Re:Experiment (1)

bemymonkey (1244086) | more than 4 years ago | (#28826015)

Hmmm, I dunno, I've pretty much stopped reformatting. I run a few anti-malware programs once a month (no background scanners, just good old manual scans regularly) and my installs have remained clean for ages.

Re:Experiment (3, Interesting)

hodet (620484) | more than 4 years ago | (#28826531)

My experience is same as yours but parent has a point for regular users. Case in point, I install the Tom Tom GPS software on my system and it installs a craplet in the systray. Your everyday user leaves the craplet there along with the other ones they have accumulated over weeks/month/years. There is absolutely no reason for TomTom to run every time I boot up, sucking up cycles. The simple act of cleaning up after installs is probably one of the best things you can do to keep your system running well (of course there are many other things too). I run XP on an AthlonXP 2600 with 512Meg of ram and it runs well. Original install in 2003. I have sisters whose machines were purchased after mine that I have reinstalled twice because they have slowed down with time. Firefox/Thunderbird,AV software,Windows Updates,occasional spyware scans, clean out the craplets. Not much more complicated then that.

Re:Experiment (1)

ZosX (517789) | more than 4 years ago | (#28826031)

That's what I was thinking. I'm reading this on a P3-1ghz /w 512mb RAM running kubuntu 9.04. A 2ghz machine of any breed would smoke this thing. Of course running kubuntu 9.04 doesn't help, but hey at least I'm using swiftfox and it is indeed a lot faster.

Re:Experiment (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28826081)

Do you actually believe that comparing a 166MHz laptop with Xubuntu with a 2GHz laptop with XP is an unfair comparison to XP? If an OS lets a 2GHz laptop slow down and drag on like a 166MHz laptop with a fresh install then that's a clear sign that that OS suffers from serious problems that affect more than efficiency.

Re:Experiment (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28826195)

Unfair? To judge a 166MHz against a 2GHz processor? Seems more than fair judging it likely also has a faster hdd, RAM, north bridge, etc.

I'd say at the least, it is amazing how much faster computers have gotten in the last decade, and yet general tasks seem to take the same or nearly the same time.

Re:Experiment (1)

Salsaman (141471) | more than 4 years ago | (#28826281)

The thing is, to keep it clean you have to run virus checkers, spyware removers, adware removers, etc, etc. Windows is just too hard for the average consumer.

Re:Experiment (1)

SleepingWaterBear (1152169) | more than 4 years ago | (#28826559)

XP runs like a champ (at least in terms of speed) if you keep it clean and the hardware manufacturers manage to write proper drivers...

This is just it; it takes significant expertise to make a year old windows machine run smoothly. People claim that windows is easier to use than Linux, but when I was running XP I needed a lot more knowledge and a lot more effort to keep it working right. I have known so many people who own a perfectly good machine one or two years old, and it's basically unusable because they haven't done proper maintenance. For the average user windows is just a bad choice.

The funny thing is, with proper driver support a well configured XP system without too much bloat installed will in fact run faster than most Linux distros. I know I'm sort of preaching to the choir here, but the idea that you need to be an expert to use Linux seems common even around here, so I felt the point deserved expanding upon.

Re:Experiment (1)

Dan541 (1032000) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825895)

The real trick is to trade laptops, people will think their getting a good deal with the "Faster" one.

Re:Experiment (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28826227)

Aren't they getting better, then? Faster is better, whatever the reason.

Re:Experiment (4, Insightful)

itsdapead (734413) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825831)

I installed kubuntu instead of the previous system (which you can easily guess). Made sure there were desktop links to firefox, kmail, dolphin and a SD card image transfer script.

...and there, I suspect, is the real secret to converting Windows users: first, recognize that your users don't care about KDE vs. Gnome holy war and give them the one that comes out of the gate looking more like Windows than a Mac. Second, a bit of intelligent customization to ensure that they can find the apps they use every day and disguise the fact that they now have different, wacky, names. Third, good after-"sales" support (I'm sure the staff at Buy More would have told them that Skype was windows-only :-) ).

Of course, that's better than you get when you buy Windows (or even Mac) but they have million-buck advertising campaigns and sales incentives instead so they don't need good service.

Re:Experiment (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28825995)

No, not buying it. First, most Linux zealots lie as easily as a fish swims in water so these stores aren't as precious as you might think they are. Second, any Skype user who has used the Windows client would take one look at the Linux version and instantly know something is very wrong. Particularly if they were using the newer Skype 4.0, which is so far ahead of the Linux version it's sad.

Ah the Germans (1)

dandart (1274360) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825577)

Why can't more of us be like them?

Re:Ah the Germans (4, Interesting)

burni (930725) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825789)

**IRONY ON** Our minister for internal affairs Mr. Wolfgang Schäuble: - hates the internet - wants to censor it - wants to control it, and he has a strong meaning on immigration, if you are coming from the liberal U.S. you are not welcome here, you could induce liberal thoughts in too many of my fellow citizen. Thats why there won't be more of you like us, you simply won't get the citizenship. **IRONY OFF** Na, it's not that hard to get the german citizenship, we like americans, also we do like most of our western EU-neighbours, and our population is decreasing if you want to join the club, do it now ;)

Re:Ah the Germans (1)

dandart (1274360) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825817)

<sarc>Yes,, and we ALL want censorship!</sarc>

Great choice (1)

dandart (1274360) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825589)

The best choice, dunno why we can't make the same one.

Re:Great choice (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28826125)

Congratulations, you're a faggot.

Nonsense (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28825603)

This news is indeed nonsense.

All notebooks in the list come with a command-line version of Linux. There is no Desktop/Graphical environment pre-installed on these Notebooks. I bought one of these Acer Notebooks and I was actually shocked that they were pre-installing an absolutely useless Linux version.

This means, a roughly estimated 100% of buyers install their own operating system on these notebooks....and this means usually Windows XP. On my notebook, Ubuntu Linux is running great, but I guess that only a small percentage of buyers is going to install a Linux version.

However, the most important question is, why Acer does not pre-install a decent Linux distribution?

Re:Nonsense (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28825723)

However, the most important question is, why Acer does not pre-install a decent Linux distribution?

I bought a "Linux" laptop this week, and even though the OS was going to be replaced by an existing installation of Windows XP from a broken laptop, I took a look at the preinstalled Linux: It was a version of Linpus Linux and I found it to be quite usable actually. All the usual suspects were there: Firefox, Thunderbird, OpenOffice, etc. It even had a driver for the fan, which is much louder under Windows XP where Acer does not supply an ACPI control software. I had to hunt for a third party applet. All in all, if I had to choose between pirating Windows or using the installed Linux, Linux would win, at least when the notebook is used just for the typical small office stuff. Nevertheless, with the Windows installation being legal and Windows-only software and a heap of data on the old notebook, transplanting Windows XP over Linpus was the obvious choice.

People want the hardware, not Linux (2, Informative)

Jaro (4361) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825625)

If you take the time and have the language skills to the read the comment you'll see that at least 75% of the comments are related to how people can install XP/Vista or reports by people who report how easy it was to install XP/Vista. People just buy these notebooks to get the cheap hardware without included Microsoft licensing costs and the throw their pirated copy of Windows on them. And those people who actually use Linux will probably install their own preferred flavor of Linux on it. The product description even says "XP/Vista drivers included". So get real - this is not a Linux revolution, people are not switching to Linux, they are just running because these things are cheap! So real lesson we learn: People like to buy cheap notebooks and install Windows on their own, instead of buy more expensive notebooks with the Microsoft licensing costs already included.

look at the user comments (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28825671)

The vast majority of 4-5 star ratings come from those who are excited about the hardware and about how easy it is to flatten everything and put Linux on it. One or two there are who flattened everthing and put some Ubuntu on it to be equally excited. The bad ratings came from two buyers who said that the Linux installed was just unusable, not even X being properly installed and some bits of the hardware not being supported at all (well, a user comment, maybe he has not yahooed enough).

Summary: it is bought as a Windows machine, not as a Linux machine, even though solely Linux ships with it. And the vendor apparently just forgot to explicitly mention that in the product's description.

Those statistics are pretty much false... (4, Interesting)

bemymonkey (1244086) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825753)

False positives - I live in Germany, and of the 10 people I know who've bought laptops in the last year, 7 went with FreeDos/Linux notebooks. The first thing they did when they got them was to install XP Pro...

I also bought a Linux notebook (well, netbook) and put XP on it...

I don't know a lot of people who buy Linux laptops to run Linux...

Re:Those statistics are pretty much false... (4, Interesting)

markdavis (642305) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825977)

And what about the false negatives?

Since there are so few Linux-pre-installed laptops, most people that do want to run Linux are forced to purchase one with MS Windows preloaded on it and then install Linux. These are counted as MS Windows sales. Unfortunately, they also continue to fuel the machine that prevents choice in the first place.

Anyway, every laptop/notebook I have purchased in the last 15 years has forced MS Windows on it, with the sole exception of the Asus EEE 1000 I purchased from Amazon, and that model is now discontinued.

I know a lot of people who buy MS Windows laptops to run Linux (granted, I am active in a Unix User's Group).

Re:Those statistics are pretty much false... (1)

bemymonkey (1244086) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825983)

Good point, but I'm willing to bet that the number of Linux-on-Windows-Laptop users is a lot smaller than Windows-on-Linux-Laptop users :)

Re:Those statistics are pretty much false... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28826061)

Where did they (and you) get Windows XP ? Are you violaiting MS EULA and moving an OEM license from one PC to another ? ...or are you students and use Educational License ?

Re:Those statistics are pretty much false... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28826277)

EULAs aren't binding in Germany because they're not shown until the sale is final. OEM licenses can legally be moved to another PC.

Activation doesn't care about invalidity of EULA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28826295)

All MS have to do is tell you that your machine cannot have OEM XP installed on it and it doesn't MATTER what the law says in Germany.

Re:Activation doesn't care about invalidity of EUL (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28826549)

At that point it would be legal to crack Windows as a measure of restoring compatibility.

Re:Those statistics are pretty much false... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28826213)

Yeah, who the hell wants to run linux.
I bought mine to run OpenBSD.

Amazon.co.uk (1)

farfield (1119449) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825759)

This makes me want to live in Germany. Though it seems amazon.de has a bunch of linux notebooks and netbooks, the same models aren't even on amazon.co.uk. I wonder if amazon.co.uk will even list arm based netbooks when they finally hit full force. The paucity of choice on amazon.co.uk is incredible, mostly older models and mostly out of stock.

When you live in a country in hock to M$* so deeply, maybe it's not surprising.

*The use of M$ in place of Microsoft is and indicator of the many years spent watching Microsoft compete fiercely [groklaw.net] for their market share, in both a legal [robweir.com] and illegal manner [slated.org] .

I'm amazed @ Linux on netbooks & notebooks (1)

twosat (1414337) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825805)

I remember using Apple MacIntoshes in the late 1980's and wishing that they had Unix installed on them. Well, eventually that happened much later with OS X, but I find it amazing that Linux is now appearing in low-end netbook and notebook computers, albeit often with unpopular distributions.

full notebook (3, Interesting)

doti (966971) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825835)

These machines are not netbooks, but full notebooks

That is, full 2.5Kg + bulky AC font and cord, notebooks.

I never bought a notebook for that reason. To me, the point of a notebook is that you can carry it with you anywhere if you want, but they're too bulky for that, not to mention the battery life makes it impossible to do any real work away from the grid.

I was an early buyer of the Eee701, and I love it. I will only buy a notebook when I'm done with desktops and the notebook will be my main machine. This day will be the day id Software stop making games. (Since Quake 1, I always buy a new machine when id release a new engine.)

These are not really Linux notebooks (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28825865)

Acer just installs a Linux because they have to deliver ANY operation system with the computer.
Even the Linux distributor (Linpus) itself doesn't use Linux, but Windows:
ftp://ftp.linpus.com/pub/aspireone/ACER/AspireOne/v1.0.3/patch103.xls
HP even does install FreeDOS on its cheapest notebooks:
http://www.notebooksbilliger.de/hp+550+na947ea+preisknaller?sid=5f86c41599d8b1bb15059c54303d9e4f

Nevertheless these notebooks are much cheaper w/out Windows tax and you can install your favorite operation system on it.

Those 2007 Amazon "sales charts" (0, Flamebait)

harlows_monkeys (106428) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825871)

well as data showing that the Linux-powered and Unix-powered computers topped Amazon's sales charts in all categories for 2007

According to the link that was in the above quote, The Nokia Internet Tablet PC was the best selling computer, the MacBook Pro was the best reviewed computer, the Asus EEE 4G was the most wished for computer, and the MacBook was the most gifted computer.

Only one of those comes from a sales chart. Furthermore, it probably wasn't the computer sales charts, as Amazon puts the Nokia in the handheld and PDA category. So what we really have here is that a Linux-powered device was tops in a minor category, Macs were the best reviewed and most gifted computers, and a lot of people expressed interest in the EEE.

That people have to resort to things this weak in order to get something positive about Linux success with consumers says a lot about how little that success is.

meanwhile, in Japan (1)

hoarier (1545701) | more than 4 years ago | (#28825985)

Sales in Germany of Acer and Asus net/note/newtbooks with Linux should at least be higher than they are here in Japan -- where they are zero, as neither company condescends to offer a non-Windows option. You can get certain models of Dell n*tbooks with Ubuntu if you look for them online, but there's no mention even of them in the stores. Ask for Linux in a large computer store (e.g. Yodobashi) and you'll be greeted with something between incomprehension and mild alarm. This "free market" of ours is truly a wonderful thing.

Re:Those 2007 Amazon "sales charts" (1)

tapanitarvainen (1155821) | more than 4 years ago | (#28826427)

You didn't read far enough. Take look at this article [linuxtech.net] and the actual bestseller list at Amazon [amazon.de] . In the category "notebooks", first and fifth are Linux machines.

Are they keeping them? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#28825931)

Just because Linux netbooks are selling well, it doesn't mean that the buyers are keeping Linux on them.
They may be buying the Linux netbook but end up wiping it for Windows (usually pirated) to save some money.

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