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Will Silicon Valley Run Out of Data Center Space?

samzenpus posted more than 4 years ago | from the demand-and-demand dept.

Data Storage 142

1sockchuck writes "With capital scarce, data center developers are prioritizing projects in northern Virginia, where the Obama stimulus plan and federal shift to cloud computing are likely to boost data center demand from government agencies. This is forcing them to delay or scale back large projects in Santa Clara, setting the stage for a supply/demand imbalance in Silicon Valley, particularly for large space requirements. One potential mitigating factor: some currently occupied data center space could become available through the failure of venture-backed startups."

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142 comments

dream on (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29046105)

There is a TON of unused data center space in the bay area, as dotcoms have folded up or moved.

Re:dream on (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29046283)

Silicon valley running out of data center space is like Tucker Max running out of pussy. And doesn't have enough dick for all the pussy that gets thrown at him.

Re:dream on (5, Informative)

cantcomplain (1604473) | more than 4 years ago | (#29046493)

You may be partially right--some of the facilities have space. But some that have "tons" of space are maxed out or near it for power and cooling. Some are not accepting new clients or anticipate turning away business in the next few months. I think it was 365 Main that turned me away and said the move to the cloud would be consuming their capacity. Some of the tenants at 200 Paul have space but some of it is pretty ghetto and limited by power. At least that's what I found in a cursory search dictated by a ceo that doesn't want to build out a server room (40kva w/10 tons hvac) at a new site. If you know cheap and usable co-lo space, all the sushi you can eat!

Re:dream on (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29046637)

There will always be plenty of space slightly north of Silicon valley, in the dialated assholes of San Fraciscan men.

Cooling isn't much of a concern due to the constant wind whistling by, and the average fairy can fit 2U to 4U of rack space in his asshole.

You get twice the output from each "rack" because they can compute while they compute as long as you don't let them stray too far from the power source.

And before you Jews start rubbing your hands together, I already patented the idea. Fuck off.

-- Ethanol-fueled

Re:dream on (1)

sleeper0 (319432) | more than 4 years ago | (#29046741)

There is plenty of hosted space and power at 185 Berry, also a few empty floors. Several other multi-carrier buildings with space in the city as well. If it's the alternative of an on site build you probably can live without a ton of private peers anyway. Sushi ran in saulsalito sounds good.

Re:dream on (2, Informative)

simontek2 (523795) | more than 4 years ago | (#29047757)

BDAW.com has some space, they are in the verizon building on 8th and Hope in Downtown LA. Peer1 usually has space all over the place.

Re:dream on (2, Informative)

mcrbids (148650) | more than 4 years ago | (#29048073)

As a former 365 Main customer, I can say that our move to Herakles Data in Sacramento went smoothly, and what a difference! Great, reliable service, redundant EVERYTHING (unlike 365 Main which gave me A network feed and A power strip) with a bigger rack and more power, and at a BETTER PRICE.

Seriously, it's dramatically different, night and day in just about every way.

When 365 Main had their power woes a couple years back, it was all lawyer-speak about validating any kind of claim, because we *were* promised 99.99% uptime in the contract, but we'd have to sue to get it. They didn't even bother to respond to our legal letters and issued only cryptic, terse public notices.

When Herakles data had a core Cisco router go "half dead" a few months back, (blown enough to cause problems, but not cause backup routers to step in) causing a few hours of downtime, they sent detailed analysis of what happened, and then they SENT US THE FORMS if we wished to file a claim. It was even partially filled out! (we didn't file, just because of the trust and goodwill this fostered)

I was originally impressed with 365Main because it *is* technically a nice facility, but in terms of service quality and price, Herakles (1.5 hours drive away!) has them beat hands down.

Get a REAL data center!

Agreed (5, Interesting)

symbolset (646467) | more than 4 years ago | (#29046583)

With improved density current installation needs should be met forever even without folding .coms.

More importantly, the datacenter should locate somewhere with cheap power, labor and real estate that has good fiber. Where in the world it is is irrelevant - people who run servers don't fondle the hardware any more.

Re:Agreed (4, Interesting)

kriston (7886) | more than 4 years ago | (#29046749)

Northern VA doesn't have cheap power, definitely does not have cheap real estate, but we do have lots of good fiber. You can't mow your lawn without breaking some.
The vacancy is horrendous. I work in a virtually abandoned office building (upper four floors completely vacant) and pass 20 other empty offices on my way to work, not to mention the data centers that America Online abandoned even before they were brought online.

Re:Agreed (1)

Fulcrum of Evil (560260) | more than 4 years ago | (#29047809)

Wait, ashburn is pretty damn cheap - it's not like you need to set up shop in mclean.

Re:Agreed (1)

glodime (1015179) | more than 4 years ago | (#29048281)

The vacancy is horrendous. I work in a virtually abandoned office building (upper four floors completely vacant) and pass 20 other empty offices on my way to work, not to mention the data centers that America Online abandoned even before they were brought online.

Sounds like a downward price adjustment is on the horizon for commercial real estate rentals, leases and sales in Northern VA. Otherwise, the vacancies will be filled quickly.

Re:Agreed (5, Funny)

Samgilljoy (1147203) | more than 4 years ago | (#29047655)

I had a vision once of server farming becoming a family tradition among people in certain parts of the world, replacing agriculture.

Server farmer's almanac? heh heh

Re:dream on (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29047161)

All of the datacenters I visit in the Valley are losing tenants and FAST.

Re:dream on (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29047799)

um... not so sure bout this. I've spent months for a previous company looking for 10 racks of space. Closest we could get was in Oregon. Data space is largely limited by 3 things. Electricity, Electricity and Electricity. Can't run the systems, cool the systems, monitor the systems etc without Electricity. Most Failed dot comes at best clear up a half rack, most a virtual machine. Neither of which satisfies data center needs. Right now for a small 150-200Sq ft cage you are on a long assed waiting list. Have been for a long time.

Imagine a beowulf cluster of datacenters (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29046123)

Imagine it! Imagine it, I said!

Plenty of space here in the Silicon Valley (0, Offtopic)

edfardos (863920) | more than 4 years ago | (#29046129)

Tech jobs are leaving California in droves. Long live globalization! I was at San Francisco this morning, there were no clouds, and none expected.

Try Communism - it's great!

:)

I say DIG (4, Interesting)

Fluffeh (1273756) | more than 4 years ago | (#29046133)

I think we should start building hardened data center sites miles underground! And have like nukes defending them! And there should be these huge walls that don't allow anyone in or out! And guard dogs!

Sorry, for a moment there, I thought we were still in a cold war.

Maybe they could just move them next door to the next valley? I am sure there are plenty of nice valleys around that are just waiting to take all the required new data centers. Maybe snap up some bargain land from those plummeting subprime land prices?

Re:I say DIG (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29046347)

Case in Point

World's most secure data center [pingdom.com]

This underground data center has greenhouses, waterfalls, German submarine engines, simulated daylight and can withstand a hit from a hydrogen bomb. It looks like the secret HQ of a James Bond villain.

And it is real. It is a newly opened high-security data center run by one of Swedenâ(TM)s largest ISPs, located in an old nuclear bunker deep below the bedrock of Stockholm city, sealed off from the world by entrance doors 40 cm thick (almost 16 inches).

Re:I say DIG (3, Informative)

magarity (164372) | more than 4 years ago | (#29046615)

Meh, there are plenty of sites available [missilebases.com] to build your own hardened data center.

Re:I say DIG (4, Funny)

tcopeland (32225) | more than 4 years ago | (#29046651)

> there are plenty of sites available [missilebases.com]
> to build your own hardened data center.

You'll need to watch for deep crows [penny-arcade.com] , though.

Re:I say DIG (1)

hedwards (940851) | more than 4 years ago | (#29046815)

Hmm, and where exactly did you get those clearly classified photos from. I'm not sure that they'd take kindly to this leak, what with all the effort taken to hide the place to begin with.

Re:I say DIG (2, Funny)

Nefarious Wheel (628136) | more than 4 years ago | (#29047251)

And it is real. It is a newly opened high-security data center run by one of Swedenâ(TM)s largest ISPs, located in an old nuclear bunker deep below the bedrock of Stockholm city, sealed off from the world by entrance doors 40 cm thick (almost 16 inches).

But ... is it proof against Ninjas? Looks like the perfect spot to relocate TPB.

Re:I say DIG (2, Insightful)

clarkkent09 (1104833) | more than 4 years ago | (#29046721)

Maybe they could just move them next door to the next valley?

Does it even matter where the data center is physically located. I'd say go where the climate is such that it requires the lowest expense on cooling or heating, and where the land, hookers and beer are cheapest.

Re:I say DIG (1)

Hillman (137883) | more than 4 years ago | (#29047027)

Canada!

Re:I say DIG (1)

negRo_slim (636783) | more than 4 years ago | (#29047137)

Canada does not, in fact have Cheap Beer [canoe.ca]

Re:I say DIG (2, Insightful)

Antique Geekmeister (740220) | more than 4 years ago | (#29047193)

Yes, it does. If you've ever tried either to install someplace out of the way where tools and replacement parts are difficult to obtain, or where the data center staff are cage monkeys who've never actually read their own contract and how they're supposed ot have a console and keyboard available within 20 minutes of a phone call plugged into the correct server because you "economized" by paying for a "higher service level" and didn't buy remote KVM's or power controllers, then you know exactly what I've encountered a dozen times in the last decade. Having to leave my desk, drive to a facility in another state or country, and show them how it's done.

The next valley... ..UGH!!! (1)

linguizic (806996) | more than 4 years ago | (#29047281)

The next valley over is the Central Valley [wikipedia.org] . I shit you not , I live in the Bay Area and if my wife would let me, I would drive us all the way up near Redding along 101 and then back down along the Sierras to get Yosemite without having to drive through the Central Valley (ok I shit you a little but trust me it does suck). That's California they conveniently don't mention in the brochures.

Re:I say DIG (1)

Jorophose (1062218) | more than 4 years ago | (#29047341)

1. Demolish Windsor, Ontario
2. Push for new nuclear reactors or expand the horshoe falls' power production
3. ???
4. Cheap data centres
5. Nothing of value was lost.

Not even possible (5, Insightful)

Brian Gordon (987471) | more than 4 years ago | (#29046143)

a supply/demand imbalance

If there's demand, someone will supply it. If the demand is for unrealistically cheap service, then that's not real demand.

Re:Not even possible (1)

maxume (22995) | more than 4 years ago | (#29046459)

There are markets for esoteric goods that are essentially dysfunctional (stuff like high end art and black market goods), so yes, it is possible.

Re:Not even possible (1)

Sir_Lewk (967686) | more than 4 years ago | (#29046531)

High end art markets, and especially black markets, still follow supply and demand.

Re:Not even possible (2, Interesting)

maxume (22995) | more than 4 years ago | (#29046581)

If there is a large seizure, some drug or the other might not be available at any price, at least for a short period of time. Some owners might not be willing to part with art at any price, putting the value they place on the item far above any buyer (or even a variety of buyers). Hence the dysfunctional markets.

Re:Not even possible (3, Insightful)

sessamoid (165542) | more than 4 years ago | (#29046727)

a supply/demand imbalance

If there's demand, someone will supply it eventually. If the demand is for unrealistically cheap service, then that's not real demand.

Doesn't mean it will happen soon, or that a lot of businesses aren't going to suffer until the imbalance is addressed.

Re:Not even possible (2, Insightful)

mano.m (1587187) | more than 4 years ago | (#29047087)

If the demand is for unrealistically cheap service, then that's not real demand.

Yes, it is. You can't know what's 'unrealistically cheap' unless you've pushed the envelope and actually negotiated for a lower price. In a down economy, and with enough buying power looking for low prices, you might even be able to wrangle an unprecedented discount.

Re:Not even possible (1)

Lord Ender (156273) | more than 4 years ago | (#29047135)

Yeah, because the economy is actually made of pure math rather than real people! It's so simple!

misspelling in title (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29046171)

It's SILICON, with one "L".

Re:misspelling in title (4, Funny)

mhh5 (176104) | more than 4 years ago | (#29046397)

Perhaps it wasn't a typo... but a snide remark. Silly-con -> Sillicon

And the power will come from where? (3, Interesting)

FullBandwidth (1445095) | more than 4 years ago | (#29046197)

Coal-burning plants in the Appalachians, and a massive transmission line that Dominion Power wants to run across large swaths of W Va and VA. Now that the administration is behind the idea, the local opposition doesn't stand a chance.

Why host in SV anyway? (1)

hax4bux (209237) | more than 4 years ago | (#29046319)

I wouldn't even consider building a fresh data center here, just because of earthquakes alone.

Move to Sacto or something.

Rust Belt (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29046525)

I wouldn't even consider building a fresh data center here, just because of earthquakes alone.

Move to Sacto or something.

How about those Rust Belt states? Or Detroit? Or anywhere else where there are lots of out of work folks and where the cost of living is a fraction of California? There are colleges and universities that have CS and engineering programs outside of CA - meaning, you can find people with the necessary skills in other areas in those parts of the country. They're not all blue collar union members who refuse to learn new skills.

Re:Rust Belt (2, Informative)

magarity (164372) | more than 4 years ago | (#29046647)

meaning, you can find people with the necessary skills in other areas
 
What skills? A few people at the data center have mad skillz but most of them just need to know how to swap out tapes and failed hard drives and to not press the reset button until expressly told to do so. Most of the administration of the software, which is what needs the most training and skill, happens by people who are off site. Usually in India.

Re:Rust Belt (1)

jellomizer (103300) | more than 4 years ago | (#29046803)

No the Indians are to highly trained for such work. We need Americans who are afraid of Math but still think they are doing tech work to do the job.

Re:Rust Belt (1)

morgan_greywolf (835522) | more than 4 years ago | (#29046663)

Good idea. Or what about Utah? Or Wyoming? Has anyone here been these places or to Nevada? Western Nebraska? These states are mostly empty. Running power and fiber is plenty cheap enough when you consider the cost of land in these desolate, barren areas can be had for a pittance.

Re:Rust Belt (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29047043)

Utah? Is there anyone there smart enough to run a computer let alone manage a server?
They don't call em utards on fark for nothin you know.

Re:Rust Belt (1)

cenc (1310167) | more than 4 years ago | (#29047635)

yea, that would be why the NSA is moving a data / translation center there. Those tards can not even speak English, just every other language in the World.

Re:Rust Belt (2, Insightful)

MeatBag PussRocket (1475317) | more than 4 years ago | (#29047075)

While i would personally love to see a place like WY, or the rust belt get a bunch of data centers, there are some issues that would need to be addressed that realistically leave the northeast and west coast the only major viable locations for most data centers. Firstly, the issue of infrastructure rears its head in much of the midwest, WY, MT and the like, are likely lacking sufficient power supply and readily available bandwidth to realistically facilitate large amounts of data centers. While it is not necessarily outrageous to supply these services here, it does take time, years to build power plants and run fiber trunks. Secondly, data centers like to be close to their clients, or actually clients like to be close to their data centers, and its not just for the paranoid CEO who is afraid of his 1's and 0's being counted, for example, many financial institutions rely on low TTL numbers for precision stock market transactions, which is why there is a large number of data centers in northern NJ, directly across the Hudson from the stock exchange. The physical distance of a corporations data could make it less profitable. If distance were of no concern Australia would probably be the best place for data centers. there is also the factor of talent pool. personally i'd love to live in WY, but not many engineers i know would agree, and even in a tough economy asking your workforce to uproot and move to what they may feel is barren-wasteland ville-tucky will probably yield a lot of attrition (they didnt name the badlands in WY "the badlands" because of the convenient shopping.).

i'm sure theres excellent rebuttals of these points, its not really something i've researched but off the top of my head, thats what i think. correct me where i'm wrong.

Re:Rust Belt (1)

Nefarious Wheel (628136) | more than 4 years ago | (#29047293)

If distance were of no concern Australia would probably be the best place for data centers.

I think it is, personally. It's not just the false-floor space, it's the head space of driving home to "Ho hum, another hundred miles of f*****g perfect beaches". And the schools turn out educated people, for the most part. As in -- they have to study, hard, or they don't pass. Stunning place, really. Come on down.

Re:Rust Belt (1)

negRo_slim (636783) | more than 4 years ago | (#29047361)

While i would personally love to see a place like WY, or the rust belt get a bunch of data centers, there are some issues that would need to be addressed that realistically leave the northeast and west coast the only major viable locations for most data centers. Firstly, the issue of infrastructure rears its head in much of the midwest, WY, MT and the like, are likely lacking sufficient power supply and readily available bandwidth to realistically facilitate large amounts of data centers.

I hate to say it but, Idaho. Access to plenty of hydro, a ton of potential wind in the east part of the state. Micron and HP are here which in turn means there is at least a certain amount of pipe to the area. Not only that but the Google and MS data centers out in the Columbia River Gorge aren't that far away. The INL isn't far off, so in atleast some regards it's not as yokel as some might think... Regardless of our sometimes questionable choices in elected officials. Ahem... [wikipedia.org]

wyoming and montana and so on (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29047391)

You mean the states that will be supplying cubic boatloads of megawatts from the thousands of wind towers going in? I don't think electricity supply will be an issue. And they have huge coal reserves and plants, and probably the largest remaining deep oil pools in north america in the bakkens. big energy gold rush area. also, much colder there, meaning cooling the data centers will be much less costly. Near to any of the larger cities, you can get fiber. And workers, in this economy this should not be any problem. If you can't find workers skilled enough, you just ain't looking, or all you are looking at are prima donnas who demand thrice what they are worth. Let them rot in the cafes of the trendy cities. You'll get hard working visionaries who can recognize where the next boom areas are.

Really, anything connected to California is just way over priced, the state is broke, the political system is way past broken, their demographics just suck the big one, they will never get a handle on their out of control crime problem because of their loony tunes fixation on being the bluest of the blue, and they don't have enough water for all the demand there and there is no credible way to get it. Everything there is just too expensive and it's just plain stupid now. It is *past peak*.

    Get out, beat the rush, because the larger exodus is still to come. This is a global economy now, time to get with the program, expand your horizons, live large a little. The USA is huge, look around, still plenty of opportunities out there, outside of the over hyped and outtasite price wise silly valley. That's just so 80s anyway now. Plus, it's geologically overdue to get smashed, destroyed, just demolished. Not a matter of if, it's when. It is *going* to happen. Not a good place to have all your fragile and expensive eggs in one shaky basket.

And NYC as the center of the universe for finance is going away as well, it's moving to Asia, like Shanghai. The US fednote is going down as the world's reserve currency (inevitable..empires come and go through out history..it's going down). Again, NYC and close by, WAY too expensive for everything, and too far away now from the boom economic areas of the 21st century. Beat the rush....profit/live better. Leave those big ghettoes before everyone there wakes up to see they are in a ghetto.

Re:Rust Belt (1)

ClosedSource (238333) | more than 4 years ago | (#29047607)

"They're not all blue collar union members who refuse to learn new skills."

Sure, it's not as if CS graduates are using a variation of a 1970's OS or Lisp-like editors from that period.

Pure BS! (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29046337)

There was a slashdot article just recently on how easy it is to move your cloud servers to a low-tax, business-friendly jurisdiction.

Your cloud services are also easily moved to a LOW COST location.

Sheesh. Think a little.

HOW DARE YOU! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29046381)

disagree with obama.

Human relied on computer too much (-1, Troll)

sophialxw (1567701) | more than 4 years ago | (#29046415)

nowadays the world can't be functioned properly without computer, internet, so the data base and data center space is very important. ifting Anchor, Lifting Anchor Two Head Type, Lifting Insert, Lifting Socket, Utility Anchor, Capstan Lifting Anchor, Edge Lift Anchor, Coil Bolt, Eye Anchor, Fitting, Special Nut, Special Bolt, Heavy Hex Nut, Castings, Fasteners, Coil Insert, Fixing Systems, Construction Systems, Construction Accessories, Hardwares, Dogbone, Powersystems, Windpower, Auto Parts , Forging Parts. http://www.lifting-anchor.com/ [lifting-anchor.com]

Re:Human relied on computer too much (0, Offtopic)

maxume (22995) | more than 4 years ago | (#29046477)

The comment system neuters your Google-fu (rel="nofollow") and the moderation system will quickly hide your comment from most viewers, so you are pretty much entirely wasting your time here.

Of course, I would speculate you are wasting your time pulling that shit pretty much anywhere.

Re:Human relied on computer too much (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29046597)

how is babby formed? how girl get utility anchor?

Peak Valley (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29046451)

Were going to need a bigger valley!

Start digging or start dying.

mod] do3n (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29046505)

are 4bout 7000/5

No more startups (5, Informative)

Kohath (38547) | more than 4 years ago | (#29046527)

No, it won't be a problem.

There will be very, very few new startups in the US. And many of the existing startups will shut down. There's just not much point in starting a business in the US any more.

- IPOs used to be plentiful, but that was before Sarbanes-Oxley made going public astronomically expensive.
- The government is sucking up most of the country's available capital [to buy votes] for stimulus and other government spending, leaving less available for business growth.
- The new stock option rules more-or-less preclude giving lower-level employees company stock so they share in the success of the company.
- Even for those that do see success, the tax rate will be 60-70% in a few years, so they won't be able to keep much of what they make. They won't be able invest the money in new startups because the taxes will take too much and there will be none left over.
- And don't forget that everyone knows businesses are villains and rich businessmen are hated. Why subject yourself to all that for such low after-tax gains?

See this article by Victor Davis Hanson [victorhanson.com] .
See this article by T. J. Rodgers of Cypress Semiconductor [pajamasmedia.com] .
See this article by Michael S. Malone [wsj.com] .

It's not really the land of opportunity any more -- not unless you know just the right people in government or the environmental industrial complex to steer you an earmark. And even those will run out in a few years after all the money is spent and all the output from the country's slowly-declining future production is borrowed and spent.

There will be plenty of vacant data center space.

Re:No more startups (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29046905)

Flamebait? He makes some excellent points. The federal deficit will soon be at a level where no amount of gdp increase will be able to pay it off. Get ready for massive tax increases, massive inflation, or parts of the US being sold off.

Re:No more startups (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29047053)

The federal deficit will soon be at a level where no amount of gdp increase will be able to pay it off.

Looks like someone was asleep in math class

Well, no.... (1)

tjstork (137384) | more than 4 years ago | (#29047387)

The federal deficit will soon be at a level where no amount of gdp increase will be able to pay it off.

If US GDP goes up by 10%, the covers the existing budget gap and then some. Historically, this usually takes place every two or three years. Right now, we're in a recession. The problem with US finances is that Medicare is going up at an even faster rate. Health care does ultimately need to be rationed, or basically, people are going to have to be thrown off of Medicare, simply to control costs. I'm not a big Obama fan but he is right when he said that Grandma's hip replacement might not be something we can afford, and, Republicans are really disingenuous when they say reform means rationing. National bankruptcy means rationing too. We simply can't afford to grow health care by 8% a year forever.

Re:Well, no.... (2, Insightful)

Kohath (38547) | more than 4 years ago | (#29047625)

So fix Medicare and leave the rest of the health care system alone then.

The comprehensive plans are basically a huge organizational clusterfuck aimed at subsidizing Medicare using the taxes and premiums of healthy people, rationing care for everyone so you can ration it for Medicare recipients too, and forcing doctors and patients into low value/low physician-pay outcomes by denying all other choices. Some of us aren't willing to have our life-and-death choices subject to government bureaucratic decision trees. But none of the plans will ultimately allow us to opt out and pay for care in cash (a favorable alternative to dying or suffering on a waiting list in many cases) because that option will destroy the leverage that governments have to force physicians to work for below-market reimbursements. (Note how no one asks malpractice lawyers to work for below-market rates. Hmm. I wonder which party those lawyers give money to?)

My health-care costs aren't going up 8% per year. I'm not spending too much of my GDP on health care, because I don't have a GDP; I'm a person. The government can fuck off when it comes to my health care. And this is a matter of life and death for me and everyone else who uses health care. It's not like people are just going to acquiesce. This conflict on health care will continue to escalate and intensify until the ruling class backs down.

Re:Well, no.... (2, Insightful)

YesIAmAScript (886271) | more than 4 years ago | (#29047637)

Lots of young people think they can just pay for their medical costs in cash. I have bad news, your twenties and thirties are not the expensive parts of your life in terms of medical care.

-This conflict on health care will continue to escalate and intensify until the ruling class backs down.

The ruling class are the people who own the insurance companies and such, they're not actually the friend of the working man, they just want your money.

Re:Well, no.... (1)

Kohath (38547) | more than 4 years ago | (#29047801)

"The people who own insurance companies"? Who are they? Do they live in a cartoon mansion with their nephews and roll around on the cash in the vault?

Life isn't a cartoon. There are no "the people who own insurance companies". Teachers and plumbers own the insurance companies in their pension plan or 401K.

Re:Well, no.... (1)

Kohath (38547) | more than 4 years ago | (#29047849)

Oh, and let me add: Your arguments are great. I am now completely persuaded. You won me over completely.

Please tell me when I can start letting life and death decisions for myself and my family be made by a government bureaucracy. It's such a great idea. Why didn't I see it before?

Re:No more startups (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29047403)

We're dooooomed!

Yeah, like it wasn't the land of opportunity in the 50s, when the upper bracket income tax percent was much higher and the United States decended into Soviet-like poverty. Oh wait..

Re:No more startups (2, Informative)

Kohath (38547) | more than 4 years ago | (#29047761)

Which other countries were a better place than the US to start a company in the 1950s? It was just after WWII and most countries were rebuilding.

Which countries are a better place than the US to start a business in 2009? And in 2011 when the taxes start kicking in? And what about the years after that? There are lots of countries that won't be capping their carbon emissions, for example.

Also, government as a percentage of GDP was about half as large [usgovernmentspending.com] in the 1950s. And the regulatory burden [fiscalaccountability.org] was much lower.

Re:No more startups (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29047409)

I wish I could moderate you flamebait twice. The world isn't going to end because a liberal is president.

I guess all the libertarians are using their mod points to jerk you off for this stupid drivel.

Re: exactly (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29047461)

Spot on. This country is screwed if it keeps spending and taxing at its current rate. How the hell did this happen?

Re:No more startups (1, Flamebait)

lawpoop (604919) | more than 4 years ago | (#29047555)

the tax rate will be 60-70% in a few years

Who modded this informative? How about +1 Right-wing paranoid socialist revolution fantasy?

Re:No more startups (0)

Kohath (38547) | more than 4 years ago | (#29047889)

I think it was someone who clicked on the links and read some of the articles. Just a guess though.

Here's a news article on the 60% tax rate [nypost.com] , BTW. Were you to read it, you may be informed. Then perhaps you could understand how being informed and rating an article as "Informative" might somehow connect. Good luck on your journey of understanding.

Re:No more startups (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29048275)

It's not a paranoid fantasy, though. Just look at Massachusetts.

They passed a law requiring all people to have health insurance. Guess what - the costs of simply requiring everyone to get health insurance is high enough that the state has had to raise taxes. And the Massachusetts government isn't actually providing health care - the costs of just enforcing the law required a tax hike!

If the Democrats get their way and push through national health care, taxes will rise. Just look at Massachusetts, and think how much worse things would be if the government was actually providing health care itself.

Re:No more startups (4, Informative)

YesIAmAScript (886271) | more than 4 years ago | (#29047629)

Gloom and doom never gets old. We were definitely doomed in 2000 also. And 1994.

I don't think Sarbanes-Oxley has anything to do with the number of IPOs. IPOs are such a ridiculous money making scam that increasing the overhead a few percent isn't doing to dampen anything. I'd say the reduction in the number of IPOs is more to do with the stock market in the toilet than anything. Companies don't go public to succeed anymore, they go public to get a huge stock pop, and you won't get that right now.
You're right about the changes in stock options to low-level employees, but my understanding is there are no new rules, companies are voluntarily expensing stock options now. Which, to be honest, they should have done all along.
The tax rate will be 60%? Marginal tax rates aren't even at 30% for most people right now. Remember, it's Silicon Valley, your house costs $600,000 and the tax on the interest is deductible. I know people with 14 exemptions on their W-4, virtually all of which come from them paying $28,000 in interest on their house each year. That means if you're making $100,000, 28% of your income isn't subject or state or local taxes at all!

- And don't forget that everyone knows businesses are villains and rich businessmen are hated. Why subject yourself to all that for such low after-tax gains?

Good point, now what are you going to do with your business degree? I'd be lying if I said I was disappointed that your ilk might no longer be rushing to Silicon Valley to make their money for nothing but calling themselves executives and quoting tax regulations.

Re:No more startups (1)

YesIAmAScript (886271) | more than 4 years ago | (#29047937)

Why did I say state and local taxes when I meant state or federal taxes? Sorry about that.

Re:No more startups (1)

JoshHeitzman (1122379) | more than 4 years ago | (#29048473)

Deductions only apply to one of the three federal taxes on wages. The social security and medicare taxes have no deductions. If you've ever been self-employed then your are very aware of the 15% bite those two federal taxes take out of your income, but even if you are not self-employed those two take still nearly an 8% bite out of your paycheck (not to mention that if the employer didn't have to pay their half, they could just pay it to you instead).

Re:No more startups (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29047639)

God I wish I had mod points.

-IPOs - It's more expensive, but that doesn't stop start ups from A) Being profitable and B) Being bought.
-Capital - Credit is indeed tighter, but in some ways that can benefit good businesses - less competition if you can find the funding.
-Options - It really hasn't had a big effect. Everyone uses Non-GAAP anyways. The change had no real impact IMO. Companies are switching from options to restricted stock because in a shitty economy where stock prices are dropping, options aren't very good compensation for employees.
-Tax rate - Not sure why I responded to the above points, because this one pretty much confirms you're trolling.

I'll just stop here.

Re:No more startups (1)

pete6677 (681676) | more than 4 years ago | (#29047643)

Not to mention, its impossible to write software in the U.S. without getting sued by some patent troll.

Is this still "theonion.com"? (2, Funny)

Old97 (1341297) | more than 4 years ago | (#29046549)

I'm confused, I've been watching some videos and reading stories on the Onion's site. This story just fit right in.

Half-empty dc's (3, Interesting)

raybob (203381) | more than 4 years ago | (#29046559)

I've worked in several large datacenters in the Atlanta area for various clientes in the past few months. These things are overbuilt, and half or more of their capacity looks idle. Speaking with dc staff, many of even the populated cages are idle/bankrupt/abandoned.

And the dc salesmen have seemed pretty eager last 6 months or so. I've bought some rack space & virtual servers recently, and got some shinin' deals.

So I can attest to the fact that at least that postulate about dc capacity being underutilized.

But, things seem on the upswing now though, at least my intuition says so.

Re:Half-empty dc's (4, Interesting)

drdanny_orig (585847) | more than 4 years ago | (#29046635)

I live and work in Sunnyvale, and I'm here to tell you that half the office space in this area is empty. Buildings that started going up two years ago have stopped, rusting in place. And at the rate people and businesses are leaving I don't think space is going to be a problem.

Re:Half-empty suburbs! (1)

morgan_greywolf (835522) | more than 4 years ago | (#29046701)

Hell, I live near Tampa, Florida. I'm here to tell you that half of the homes in this area are empty. Everyone's leaving the state. You can probably pick up foreclosed properties for next to nothing.

Unfortunately (4, Funny)

gtrubetskoy (734033) | more than 4 years ago | (#29046563)

There are only two places in the US where datacenters can be built - Silicon Valley and Northern Virginia.

Re:Unfortunately (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29047419)

actually, for big projects, you need to be near an MAE. There are 3 major ones in the US. San Jose, CA. check. Washington, DC. Check. And Dallas, Tx.So this isnt that far fetched as some would believe.

Re:Unfortunately (1)

Alpha830RulZ (939527) | more than 4 years ago | (#29047513)

Which is why Google is building a DC in The Dalles, OR, and Microsoft is building one in Moses Lake WA, right?

Who cares where the data center is? (4, Insightful)

schwep (173358) | more than 4 years ago | (#29046595)

Just put in a fat pipe to the data center & connect it to the backbone. Data centers are (by design) a commodity, and as such will be outsourced to where it makes sense.

Re:Who cares where the data center is? (1)

MeatBag PussRocket (1475317) | more than 4 years ago | (#29047195)

Financial institutions care. they rely on super low latency for trades and transactions, which is why many data centers are located on some of the most expensive land in America, North NJ, specifically Bayonne and Jersey City as they are within spitting distance of NYC and Wall st

Move them north (0, Interesting)

ClickWir (166927) | more than 4 years ago | (#29046599)

I'm telling you. Save a ton on cooling costs and move north. Yea they'll be some chicken and egg type stuff, you'll need to get better infrastructure out there... but they need to stop building heat generators in a hot climate. It's just dumb.

Re:Move them north (1)

Jorophose (1062218) | more than 4 years ago | (#29047375)

Definately. It's just what you need to push for good stability in the north.

The amount of crime, abuse, drug use, and poverty in the north is astounding for a region in a highly-developped nation.

(or were you saying by the 49th? I was thinking more towards Iqaluit)

Re:Move them north (1)

dranga (520457) | more than 4 years ago | (#29047619)

Actually, I'd love it if a bunch of tech jobs started appearing way up north.. Yellowknife was a nice little city, and I liked Anchorage alot, I might jump at a chance to work up there for a few years.

Why... (4, Informative)

QuietLagoon (813062) | more than 4 years ago | (#29046775)

... do the data centers need to be located in Silicon Valley? I thought this thing called The Internet negated the need for geographical co-location.

Re:Why... (2, Interesting)

MillionthMonkey (240664) | more than 4 years ago | (#29047107)

Just because the Internet is involved doesn't mean everything you do can just happen anywhere. People administering datacenters often need physical access. They might also have other jobs to do. They might be on a team that isn't all IT administrators. There may be face-to-face interaction required to get anything done. Real world considerations often intrude.

Re:Why... (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29047245)

* When you're a small company building something out, you need to have colo near your engineers, since they WILL have to visit it

* If you later become big the staffing isn't as big a problem (you could just pay a couple engineers to live near your data center in Bumfuck, NW) However, by then you have a lot of infrastructure in your current datacenter, so moving is hard/expensive too.

* Even if you're large you need to consider the risk of having a datacenter located far from most of your employees - if something REALLY bad happens will your skeleton staff near the co-lo be able to deal with it as quickly? How much is avoiding that delay worth to you?

* The people on this thread who are saying "just run a fat pipe to the middle of nowhere" have no idea how hard/expensive that is. Getting a truly redundant (i.e. different geographic paths) OC-192 to your shiny new data center in Montana is going to cost millions.

Finally, imagine if you're in the datacenter-building business and want to invest millions into building out a new facility. Would you want to put a low-cost facility in the middle of nowhere and hope you can find clients who are willing to host there (and risk having the project turn into a total bust)? Or would you rather enter a market like Silicon Valley where there are plenty of companies looking for space, with new ones showing up all the time?

The arguments in favor of building data centers off the beaten path aren't without merit, but they only work for the largest of networks were the question is "We already have 5 datacetners, where should we put #6?" (Think: Google, Microsoft, Federal Govt, etc...) For most organizations that just want to rent a few cages of space there are real reasons that they continue to cluster in a few tech-heavy parts of the country.

Re:Why... (1)

cenc (1310167) | more than 4 years ago | (#29047731)

Writing from the tip of South America with a current ping time of around 250 - 300 ms to my server in the San Jose in the middle of the night I can tell you it matters. I have to run a server in the States for my clients in the Northern hemisphere, and a Server in South America for my office in the southern hemisphere because latency and quality of connections between them matters even for a relatively small and light computing I do in my biz. It is a problem for me with just a few web and email servers, anyone doing serious heavy lifting it would really matter. Connections inside both countries are good, it is the connections between the countries that are crap.

After 10 years of doing IT work in developing countries (Latin America to China), I would say less than 1% of the Internet connected World I have seen is really on your super "internet" even at the corporate level. Outside high density new urban areas, very very few people have ever seen more more than even a 4 mb connection consistently, and most of the Internet connected World still happens on less than a 1mb. By that I mean it does not exist. It is not a matter of money (although that helps), it simply does not exist. It will be another 5 - 10 years at least or more.

Detroit, MI (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29046849)

I hear that land is cheap in Detroit

They are building them here in Vegas... (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29047051)

...the most dense data center in the world is the SuperNAP locate here in Vegas:

http://www.switchnap.com/

A lot more are being built here as this is the safest place from disasters in the US.

Hey, there's always the basements and attics... (1)

macraig (621737) | more than 4 years ago | (#29047547)

... of the million-dollar mansions of all the pre-Internet-Bubble-burst CEOs and entrepreneurs. Have they spec'ed out those for data centers yet?

change the laws - build up! (1)

OrangeTide (124937) | more than 4 years ago | (#29047605)

Every wonder why San Jose, Cupertino, Mountain View, Fremont, Milpitas, Santa Clara, Palo Alto and all the other major cities of the valley have no sky line and are flat? It is because there are lots of building height restrictions in San Jose and the other cities of Santa Clara County (with a few special exceptions made for buildings like Fairmont Plaza and the Adobe towers). If those restrictions were relaxed we could quickly build huge data centers that occupy only a small footprint. Tall buildings can be made earthquake resistant, lots of buildings survived the 1989 Loma Prieta quake in San Francisco (which has numerous tall buildings), and the technology for hardening buildings against quakes has improved since then.

If Silicon Valley wants to continue to be a tech hub, they really need to add solar power to as many buildings as possible to reduce utility costs. Build up to make room for businesses in downtown and north San Jose (aka Cisco-land). With data centers comes more tech jobs, and more jobs those who provide services to tech people. (restaurants, computer stores, prostitutes, coffee bars, etc)

Don't overlook some obvious factors (1)

Whuffo (1043790) | more than 4 years ago | (#29047749)

There's something about network connectivity that works well with data centers - take a look at any of the "map of the internet" graphics and you'll see that a huge number of major networks intersect in Silicon Valley. There aren't many places on earth better if what you need is bandwidth and low latency.

Unfortunately, the real estate costs are among the highest in the country and labor costs are correspondingly high. So the building and the drones who staff it are more expensive in Silicon Valley than almost anywhere else. What this has led to is many of the large corporations in the Silicon Valley area moving their data centers to less expensive locations that have more business-friendly politicians. Between that and the recent recession, there's lots of data center space available in Silicon Valley - along with lots of power and network connectivity. It's just that cost factor that makes it less attractive. Of course, the quality of employee you can hire in Silicon Valley is quite different than the quality of employee you can hire in Butt Scratch, TN.

It's usually not obvious - for example, when HP "merged" with Compaq they consolidated their data centers - at Compaq's TX location. Many other corporations have done the same thing over the last few years. It's an obvious choice for them - but taken as a whole, it's left a lot of data center space vacant and quite a few sysadmins and techs out of work.

While the developers were focused on their jobs being outsourced to some foreign country and any new jobs being taken by H1B employees, the folks that supported them also had their jobs on the line.

There's some other places in the country that had their IT business base disappear that are desperate to have some jobs. MA, VA and others are looking to move some business in and there's lots of space and they'll cut a deal on taxes or whatever it takes. Guess what - it's going to be the same damned thing all over again. You guys want too much money, we can get the same thing from those guys for less. Once the word gets out and everyone piles on, the cheap place gets expensive and the cycle repeats. Worried about your job being outsourced to India? Don't be - the Indians are all full up and are now outsourcing their jobs to where ever they can get it done for less.

It's just the same old crap - the corporation needs to make more profit each and every year. Labor is one of their biggest expenses, and even your typical mouth-breathing executive can see that the folks in Montana will work for a lot less money than the ones in New York will. So they'll move IT to Montana until they've hired every person there that can spell IT and the cost of labor starts to rise. Pay them more? Just for long enough to move things to Wyoming where the people are more reasonable.

Some day someone will realize that this can't keep on going like this - but that day isn't now, and it's not likely to come for a while.

Article sounds bogus (1)

Animats (122034) | more than 4 years ago | (#29047845)

That article sounds bogus. The problem seems to be that there's not much demand for more capacity, not that there's a lack of floor space.

If anybody actually needs a few thousand servers in Silicon Valley right now, I know a company that has them idle. Machines less than 18 months old, 8 CPUs per server, plenty of bandwidth. Serious inquiries only.

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